EP233: Patrick O'Connell, Missional Imagination & The Digital Church

Number two is prayer. And I'm not hyper-spiritualizing this, I'm going to get to this, but

you really need to submit yourself to the Lordship of Christ. He doesn't give us

missional imagination so that we can be great. He provides the spirit and the power of missional

imagination so that we can make Him and His mission great. And so you just got to approach

it in that posture. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about

the technological innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address

deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital

mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the

metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup

church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church.

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is Jeff, once again, co-founder of

Digital Church Network, founder of the Church Digital, and purveyor of, oh, so much fun in digital

and metaverse space. And I am looking forward to this conversation. I love this topic. And I love

this organization and the people that I get to work with within it. And so many of you know that through

Digital Church Network, we have a very strong partnership with an organization called New Thing.

And New Thing is really the foundation behind Digital Church Network, partially with our movement

system that we've talked a lot in here about growing disciples, maturing them into leaders that are

planting churches, that are multiplying churches into networks, and then multiplying networks, even into

starting movements. And so this is a lot of the genius behind New Thing, and as well as the heart behind

Digital Church Network, starting to champion in this new disciple making pathway, this new movement

starting pathway in digital and metaverse space. And there's so much other wisdom and guidance that

honestly, I'm getting right now from New Thing. And so it's an honor and a privilege right now to bring in the

global director of New Thing into the conversation, Patrick. So Patrick O'Connell, thank you for jumping on the

podcast here with us.

So glad to be here, Jeff. Love you, brother. Love what you're up to and want to serve you well. Thanks for the invite.

Oh, awesome. Yeah, really looking forward to this conversation. And it was interesting when we were sitting

down with Patrick, you know, months ago talking about different ideas for podcasts and roundtables and

trainings. He said these two words, and I was like, oh my gosh, I need to know more about that. Because like, I've

never put these two words together. But even just hearing them in the same sentence resonated with me at a

very strong level. And so I'm looking forward to this to this conversation here, centered on the two

words. Now, now this is awkward. Like I'm not I've not said the two words yet. Yes. Yet again, I'm still

drawing it out. Drum roll, please. I wish my little effects box was working down here, but I don't have a

word. All right, look, we're talking about missional imagination and the idea of well, shoot, Patrick,

why don't you set up missional imagination? What do you mean by that? Yeah, I think in the

movemental world, if we're really trying to lean into the church as movement, what missional

imagination helps leaders do is very simply dream big, dream bigger than they could ever imagine.

It really is this embrace of Ephesians 320, right? That God can do immeasurably more. And what we've

found certainly post COVID, but even pre COVID, we found that leaders tended to only imagine what they

could do and what they could maybe do in the next two or three years, whether that was starting a

location, launching a new service, raising up a leadership resident, all good things, by the way.

But what we continually found was that when we help unlock that missional imagination, and the cool thing

is, is this works cross-culturally, right? This works in Thailand, and it works in Texas, because it's all

about what the Holy Spirit's doing in and through us. But when we can help leaders unlock their missional

imagination, this is not our missional imagination, it's your missional imagination, then beautiful things

start to happen. So man, at the heart of it, that's what it is for me.

Interesting. Yeah, so we've had other conversations about missional imagination. I am sticking to this. You were the

first person that I heard use the phrase missional imagination, although we have had other podcasts

talking about missional imagination as well. And so we'll put some of those and link to them in the show notes, where I

think we've seen others kind of adopt this idea and run with it about doing things, you know, imaginative and even leaning

into, you know, it's interesting when we talk about that Philippians verse, you know, just to be transparent, even in my own

life. I, I have literally said that churches are where dreams go to die. Like that was a phrase that I used in my

church staffing career, because there were lots of dreams that I had. And I'm not using the word visions, but

there were, there were ideas that came to mind and opportunities. And it just didn't never fit within the

infrastructure, within the churches, within the organizations. It didn't fit within their vision. And so oftentimes, those

dreams, the majority of the time, those dreams were, were cast aside. But I think as we're leaning into

post COVID era, I think the opportunity to do something different, to dream, to innovate,

there's no better time than now towards that. All right, we're going to get back to this podcast in

just one second, but I wanted to give you a heads up for something that's coming up. We're talking about

missional imagination here with Patrick from new thing. It's a great conversation, but we want to hear

what your missional imagination is. We want to hear what you are imagining. And so we are doing a

round table dedicated for you so that we can talk about this topic. So we are gathering together

Tuesday, October 4th, 7 p.m. Eastern. We're going to be on a zoom and we're going to want to hear from

you. We're going to talk about it. Patrick's going to be there. I'm going to be there. Others are going to be

there. And let's hear from you what your missional imagination. As you're listening to this podcast,

you may have ideas and we want to hear from you. So plan on that. Go to thechurch.digital

slash imagination for more information. Thechurch.digital slash imagination. More information

on missional imagination right there. Thechurch.digital slash imagination. See you October 4th

at the missional imagination round table. All right, let's get back to the podcast.

So, so Patrick, let me, let's just, let's just bring it back here a little bit. Um, when you talk

about missional imagination, what, what, what does that look, your new thing, global director,

you're literally talking to people across the planet. What does missional imagination look like

in these contexts? Like what are people meaning? What are they people saying and seeing when they're

talking about this? Yeah, Jeff, it's really good. And I don't know why God has allowed me to sit in this

chair and talk to great people like you and your audience and, and, um, hear their stories. But what

I'm convinced of is God, uh, created imagination and he has tasked and given us the opportunity to

leverage that for his glory. And, uh, of course we work exclusively through church planting. We want to see

disciples and leaders and churches and networks and movements all reproduced. So I specifically am

coming at it that way, but I also, uh, so I celebrate imagination. I celebrate creativity

because I, I truly believe these are gifts from God. I'm, I'm, I'm a lover of music. I'm a lover of

painting. So I look at it in almost in the same kind of vein as that. And then the other thing that

at least has been true of my conversations with leaders throughout the world, I mean, I've been in

this chair about, uh, no, not literally this chair, but the new thing, global director chair,

uh, for a little over eight years and got to, got to travel around a little bit. And what was

clear to me as like, as a student of missiology was that paradigms were so powerful and they locked us

into, uh, these, these, these, these, uh, constructs that were very unimaginative. It's kind of what,

you know, we've all know is like, Hey, this is how we do things. This is how we are taught to do

things. And this is how we're going to do things then. And what I think we've all learned, certainly

post COVID is that is no longer true, uh, where the church and the very foundational paradigms,

ecclesiological paradigms, missiological paradigms have been challenged in some pretty

remarkable ways. And so imagination for me becomes, uh, this opportunity to kind of tune into a different

frequency of the Holy spirit. If you can go there with me, um, because I've watched God use women and

men all over the world who allow themselves this imagination, this, this, this opportunity to

reimagine or imagine for the first time, something great. Um, you know, our, our brother, Dave Ferguson,

um, talks about this idea of the big dream. And he, if you were here, he tells, he tells you a story

about, you know, the, the thing that had unleashed him to, um, to envision a big, bold future through

exponential, through new thing, et cetera, was this idea of having permission to dream big,

to use missional imagination. And the reason I like, the reason I like missional imagination

together, imagination is, is wonderful in a lot of scenarios, but you and I, Jeff, we're talking

about the kingdom. We're talking about evangelism. We're talking about discipleship. We're talking about

church planting in the digital space and the missional component reminds us that we are imaginative in the

context of the mission. Um, and, and, and that's really what is powerful for me. And I think that's

where it started. Yeah. I can tell you so many of the conversations that I have, I've had with,

with digital church planters and metaverse people, it's, it's giving them permission.

Like if they, uh, they, they have this crazy idea. I mean, honest to God, I've, I've had this

conversation. I'm not exaggerating hundreds of times, Jeff, I found you on Google. You're the only

person that seems to be thinking this way, but I have this crazy idea. My, my, my pastor does not

understand what I'm talking about. My denomination does not care. Even my spouse and my friends,

because they've never seen it before. They don't know how to be supportive. Am I actually being

crazy? You know, it was funny. Like, and I started having those conversations back in 2019, 2020.

And, and, and, and back in 2020, I was like, maybe you are a little crazy, but give it a shot. See what

happens. But by this point now, when we're doing this recording in 22, like when I have those

conversations, usually there's very rare that I find a crazy idea that I've never heard of,

or at least that isn't similar to what somebody else is doing. And so it's not, you're not crazy.

As a matter of fact, there's two other people that are doing a different spin on what you're talking

about. Would you like to meet them? Could I introduce you to them? So you can start to maybe

even collaborate and start to learn from each other and share some of these experiences. And what's,

what's fascinating is that as they start to talk together and, and as they even start to do

different things with the, with these imaginative ideas and digital and metaverse, um, man, we're

finding the reaching different types of people than what the buildings are. And, and, and it's so

fascinating to me, the, the perception that the physical buildings have, that the idea of the digital

churches and competition, and that, that is trying to pull people away from the building,

the ecclesia, the physical community, uh, when in fact it's, it's just reaching a completely

different type of person than, than what the building is reaching. And it's completing the

great commission. It's not competing over the great commission. Sorry. Soapbox is, is over,

but you know, that's really the heart of this is giving people permission to do something and not

viewing it as, as competition.

And, and when you can get, it's, it's well said. And, and what, what, what has been fun working with

you, brother, is that, uh, the group of people that you're connecting with in the digital space,

and I'm a learner here, I'm, I'm, I'm learning, I'm listening. I'm trying to celebrate all that

you're doing that you and your peers are doing, but it's, it's a, it's a new space. It's like a new

art scene. It's like a new, uh, skunk works. And I, I think Jeff, you don't know where this is

going, right? You're a pretty smart guy. You're, you're pretty engaged. You're, you're learning as

fast as you can. You're talking to the right people, but that's what makes it fun. And what's

going to, how we get to a place where this actually becomes fruit for the kingdom in the digital space,

suggesting is going to require a bunch of leaders and men and women, just like, you know, who are

listening to this, who are willing to take the risk and imagine, uh, a preferred future. And then to

begin to build that preferred future. Now we, of course, as we follow Jesus, we are convinced that

and confess that the Holy spirit empowers that. Uh, and so this is right in line with how God's always

done things. I think, I think about Abram, right? You know, go, uh, he didn't, he didn't have anything,

but an imagination of what could be. God was go back and read Genesis. You know, God was not very

specific about the details. You know, uh, it was, it was, and I can imagine my, you know, putting

myself in Abram's, uh, shoes and, and, and like imagining the journey and then the, then what's

going to happen and, and, and listening to God and going with him on it. So it's, it's wonderful when

it's individual. Here's where it gets really good though, Jeff, when you can build a culture

in your church and your organization here, we're talking about church, of course, whether it's

digital or whether it's not, when you can build a missional culture that is full of missional

imagination of people who are, who are missionally imaginative, it's awesome. It's awesome. Um,

and so that's what I'd love to help you and your, your audience kind of, um, you know, understand,

and maybe can just submit to you today is that it's, you know, I feel like God's given me an

imagination. He's given you a dream. He's given me a dream. Uh, you know, we need to,

that's sacred, but man, when we can get together and when, whether you're leading a digital church

or whether you're leading a micro or whether you're in India or whether you're in Bangladesh

or in, you're in Chicago, when you can get a group of people who are imaginative on fire,

missional, that's where you're going to see fruit for the kingdom. And that's, I guess,

why I keep coming back to it. Let's unpack an idea. Like I literally, I want you to give me an

example. Um, and, and, and an imaginative idea with missional implication, like, like something

that that's new, that's different, but it's, is serving purpose for, for the kingdom. Like I've

got plenty of crazy ideas. Uh, I've got plenty of ideas that probably can serve the kingdom. What,

what does it look like when we actually position and package both of these together?

That's a great question. I, here's, here's how I want to, I think I might answer it in two parts if

I may. First is, I just want to give you a little vignette. Um, I'm, I'm in Thailand with a group of

leaders who I don't speak their language. Uh, they're, they're young men and women, uh, Thai people,

uh, who are on fire for Jesus, um, who are, um, mostly biblically trained theologians. Uh,

they're very remarkable and smart people and they are, uh, I'm there to help them, uh, in this,

in this room, it's blistering hot, you know, uh, I'm hungry, uh, missing home a little bit,

but there to serve them. And, um, you know, in their culture, things are a little bit, uh,

structured. And even just the way the room was set up, it was almost set up like a classroom

environment and, um, you know, new things all about helping leaders collaborate together.

But what, what happened there in, in the course of those couple of days with those leaders in Thailand

was, uh, what, what we kind of refer to now as the unlocking of missional imagination,

because once they didn't need permission from me, I think they needed permission from some of

their established leaders. But once those leaders said, it's okay for you to imagine a new preferred

future for the church in Thailand, Jeff, I tell you, it was like somebody opened the windows,

the sunlight poured in, the breeze came in, the birds started singing, there was laughter,

there were smiles. We helped them collaborate around tables. They're drawing. And I, I'm getting

goosebumps about it right now because it was like one of those moments we didn't do anything, but,

but help them do what God wanted to do in and through them. And for them, the, the, the idea that

was a game changer was that they could plant church and they could make disciples and plant churches

in networks. And that was a new paradigm for them because it used, you know, the, the kind of the

older paradigm is like, I go to Bible college. I try to, you know, raise funds. I try to, I try to

start something on my own. Of course I'll have a team, but this day and, and, and, and we've seen this

happen all over the world on this day, it was like that aha moment. Wait, wait, we can imagine a

preferred future where we all benefit. We all grow. And we most importantly achieve greater things for

the kingdom. Um, that's why I'm also a big fan of collaboration. So passionate about it, but that's,

that's, um, that's certainly one idea. I think the other one is been, um, is been the, the shift,

and this is more in your, um, in your expertise, but I think that the, where missional imagination is

now, uh, where I see it being used the most often is with, with a group of people who we, we might call

them microchurch leaders. Um, and these leaders, and this is happening quickly post COVID again, just

from my chair, these leaders are quickly realizing God's called them to make disciples and to plant

churches, but it's going to look different. And so having the opportunity to work with a young couple,

uh, in Aurora, who has, has missional imagination to create a safe place for women and men who are

struggling with gender identity issues. Don't know where you stand on that theologically. It's not

important, right? Missionally it's critical. And so you have a couple here and they're talking about

where to meet these folks, how to connect, how to build, how to build community with them. And the

only thing that's driving them at the moment, cause there aren't many paradigms about this

is their missional imagination. So that's what I love about it.

Yeah. There's, there's lots of fresh expressions, unique takes, um, you know, re-imagining, you know,

I can remember, I heard, um, DJ Soto, lead pastor, Bishop, probably at this point of, of VR church. Uh,

you know, he, he was like, it's not time to recreate the church. It's time to re-imagine, uh, the church

and, and, and it's not, and it's not changing the ecclesiology, but it's imagining, re-imagining what

that ecclesiology needs to look like in, in, you know, in digital spaces that's bringing, um, you know,

gosh, I got so many different expressions, obviously what, what DJ's doing in virtual reality. Um, you

know, it's funny, we're, we're actually, uh, a podcast that's recently coming up about here, I think just the

week before when this, when this airs, um, we're working with a church right now that's actually

opening a, a, uh, virtual reality bar. Patrick, I don't think I've told you the story. We're,

we're in the process of opening a bar in virtual reality in, in VR chat and looking to, uh, to use

it relationally to, to connect with people, to build relationships, to talk, uh, to engage with,

with people in, in, in conversation. And so like, is that, is that a full church? Uh, probably not.

Can that be the front door relationally to a shared experience to get people connected

into something deeper? Certainly. And, and so, you know, I think even realizing the thing with

collaboration, and this is something that I don't think we realized 20 years ago or even two years ago,

is that I don't have to be the turnkey solution to everything. You know, I, I know in, in my church

staff years, I felt the burden with my imaginative ideas to complete the whole ecclesiology, to find

ways to do it all entirely on myself. But if we're working in networks, if, if we're partnering with

others, if we're collaborating, if we're operating in our weaknesses, now we have the opportunity to do

our part and then start to connect and hand off to somebody else for that next part. You know, we're

even seeing that with like streamers who are very excited about the kingdom, uh, like Twitch streamers,

but they're not that interested or not even fully aware of what the disciple making could be and looks

like, but they can partner with somebody that's very strong in digital discipleship that can take

those leads and that relationship from the streamer and engage them and put them into a, a digital

discipleship process. And so now we're starting to see where instead of all of, you know, us carrying

the burden entirely on our own, so we can start to work and collaborate with, with others. I'm, I'm curious

because I see that very much in digital space, Patrick, because of the collaborative nature of

digital and metaverse right now. Does that exist physically where you're seeing like, uh, organizations

or people taking part of the process, but not whole, the whole process and then working within the

networks. Is that prevalent? Yeah. You know, it's a great question, Jeff. I, I think, you know,

it's easy to see the new imagination that is being brought to bear around digital. And that's number

one, why I'm so excited. I think the other, the other thing that I'm seeing is, you know, you brought

up collaboration and collaboration as, as we talk about it and you, you know, Jeff, you're part of

conversations for us, but the it's, it's way beyond just, I, you know, let's work together and sing

Kumbaya. It's, it's, it's something holy and spiritual. And what, what, uh, our friend Alan

Hirsch talks about, he borrowed this term from the art world called scenius and scenius is the genius

of the scene. You know, and if you think about like Jeff, you know, this, I'm, I'm an old punk rock

guy, right. It's the old, uh, it's the old scene, you know, they called them a scene for a reason

because every artist was, was, was riffing off of other artists. You know, you see this, if you're,

if you're, uh, if you're a fan of American literature, for instance, that the, in Paris,

all these American authors lived in this one that, you know, there's one neighborhood in Paris.

Well, they, they, they worked off of each other. They riffed off of each other. That's what I'm

starting to see, Jeff. And so a specific example is, uh, especially in the Western context, um,

in the Western context, I'm tending to see this in, um, in, in, uh, convictions around city movements,

around gospel saturation. So, you know, and, and that's changed significantly post COVID where

there's a, where leaders are much more inclined, uh, maybe they're being forced to work together,

but they're also seeing missional imagination as the way to their collaboration. Now I know it's a

little fuzzy there, but bear with me a second, because what they're realizing is that, Hey,

if we're really serious about changing the spiritual landscape of the city or the region or whatever,

you know, whatever the target is, then we're going to need to dream big. We're going to need to build

cultures of, uh, of missional imagination in our churches. And we're going to have to get behind

new expressions and new, um, new styles of evangelism, new ecclesiological models, et cetera.

So the good news is, is I'm seeing a, a much better willingness to do that. And that's again,

back to this term, missional imagination, missional implying we're going. So it used to be like, Hey,

let's decorate the church a little bit differently and get a different crowd in here. Let's do

different services and put on Hawaiian shirts, no offense. And another new crowd will come in. But

the, that, that paradigm is shifted. It's not, they come to us. We use our imagination to make it easier

for them to come to us. We use our imagination to go to them. So I've, I've, you know, there's a story

of a pastor in Chicagoland, uh, pastor shine. He'd be great on your, on your show, Jeff. Um, but he is

from India and in Chicagoland, uh, there's a, there's a massive Indian diaspora community. And he lives in a,

in an area of the city that is, um, full of, uh, immigrants from, from central Asia. And pastor shine

is involving his church, which meets in a little tiny storefront, um, right in the heart and the

thick of this neighborhood. There's Muslims, there's Buddhists, there's, there's, there's non-believers

are all in this kind of neighborhood area. And pastor shine and his team are using missional

imagination to engage people, uh, in new and bold ways through neighborhood events, through outreach

events. They have, um, he was telling me a couple of weeks ago, and I'm probably getting all the details

wrong, but drinking tea in this culture is very important. If you want to build friendship, you

offer tea, uh, to one another. So they have teas for people to come and learn about Jesus. And, uh,

he's telling me that it's imagination through his team that is helping them engage all of this

community that God has called them to. So that's one quick story that comes to mind.

Awesome. And that actually kind of saved way into the next question I wanted to ask. Um, so let's

say I don't have imagination. Like that's not, that's not your, what you're saying excites me. And to be

honest, there, there are times where, um, you know, I, as, as a person, you know, I'm a very, very creative

individual. And if you know me, I'm also a very get it done individual. And sometimes the get it done hat

is on for a longer period of time than the creative hat. And, and, you know, there are, there are seasons

where, where my imagination is dried up. It's just go, go, go. So like I, if, if someone is, is wired

either in that way, or, you know what, I'm really not just the, I'm not the creative guy. Like I just

don't have really imaginative like dreams. Um, how, how am I part of this missional imagination

without the imagination piece? Yeah. Um, yeah, I think in all due respect, um, all of us have

imagination. I completely understand the context and the character of your question. It's just not

cultivated. It's a gift that not as cultivated in some of our systems and structures in church

have squashed it, frankly. Right. Um, and this happens in places outside of the church.

I was in business. You have a good idea and, uh, you think it could change everything and

nobody cares, right? Cause the systems and the structures are, are, they're in place and this

is what we do and this is how we do it. Um, you know, this is a highly spiritual, uh, kind

of endeavor at first. Um, what, what is all I can do, Jeff has described to you my own journey

and then, you know, maybe what I hear and see and have experienced anecdotally. Um, and I

think, you know, I, I do want to call on Ephesians for the, the apostolic gift, not in the spooky

way, but, uh, this is a gift that some of us have, um, that we can't help ourselves, but

think about what could be, uh, it doesn't mean that we're better or anything like that. It's

how, it's how God collects into the body, these gifts and empowers each and every one of us

as necessary elements of the body. But if you feel like, Hey, you know what? I am a dreamer

or I'm going, but I'm going through a dry spell or I used to have some really great ideas and

dreams, uh, about what could be for the church. And I just, I just haven't been there. It's

probably, it's probably sign you need to push away from the desk for a short season, whether

that's an afternoon, whether that's a couple of days at a retreat center, going for a walk

or whatever ways that you can hear from the Lord. But what I think I want to answer the

question with Jeff is create space so that you can hear from God, create space. And you

might just have to say doing the same things over and over, as we all know is insanity,

you know, right. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.

And so how do we stop doing things over and over for a short space? And, uh, gosh, I've known guys

and women who have gone, you know, Hey, I went away the afternoon. I had a picnic and Lord spoke to me.

And this is what I know is what we're doing. You know, this is, this is my imagined imagination.

Um, Dave Ferguson, our friend, you know, he, we kind of poke fun of it, uh, as a, as a team,

but it's remarkably, uh, effective. Um, he really insists that you need to dream on a napkin

or a serviette, whatever you use in your culture. Right. But like get away and, and let, let go of

the responsibility, break out of the paradigms as best as you can. And so what I'm arguing for is

space. There's no checklist. There's no time. Um, myself personally, I needed that brother. You know,

I needed to get a little, I needed to get away in July. I got to celebrate my, my anniversary and all,

but I needed to push back because I found myself running out of imagination, you know, and by the

way, Jeff, I'll just say this and then I'll, I'll quiet on this question. Creativity and imagination

will drain you. And so you have to be, you have to bring, you know, your best time. My best time is

the morning. I'm most creative in the mornings. I get up early, I do my runs and then I'm most

creative. So if you want, if I'm going to be creative, I know myself, it's not at five o'clock

in the afternoon, you know? So I don't know what this looks like for you and every one of your listeners.

Uh, but I think it's important to create that space here from the God, here from God and allow

yourself the, the, uh, the permission you have permission to allow God to create this wonderful

missional imagination in you. Love that to take the time, get some space and, and be aware that that

creativity, it does, does drain you. That was, that was really well said. How do I know, uh,

if an idea is of God or if I'm just crazy? I'm to be honest, I'm just going to be completely blunt.

The year 2005 to 2018, 20, I was asking those questions because a lot of the people around me,

you know, you were talking about take permission. Nobody around me was even given myself permission

for that. And so I was, it was a very hard season. How do you know it's of God?

Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm writing it down just to remind myself. And again, Jeff, speaking from my own

personal story, cause that's really it. I think number one, and this is wisdom that other leaders

have given me. And if I can pass a little long to your, your, your, your listeners, number one is I

need to create daily space for God. I need to make sure that that's built into the rhythms of Patrick's

life. So that's number one. If that's not happening, start there. For me, it's 15, 20 minutes on the

chair, on that blue chair behind me that some of your people can see sitting there, um, quietly

waiting on the Lord. That's number one. And it's taken me a long, long time. And some days I do it

better. Other days it's a mess, but that's number one. Number two is prayer. Uh, and I'm not hyper

spiritualizing this. I'm going to get to this, but you really need to submit yourself to the Lordship

of Christ. He doesn't give us missional imagination so that we can be great. He provides the spirit and

the power of missional imagination so that we can make him and his mission great. And so you just got

to approach it in that posture, um, read scripture, because if, if you're not reading and internalizing

and meditating, uh, the word, then you, you are, you run the risk of, of kind of making it up. Um,

and then here's the last bit for me, Jeff, that I think is kind of the clincher. What does the

community of Jesus followers around you say and think? So I've had, I, I, I can be an idea machine.

I don't know what it is. I can create 10 ideas around one topic and most of them are always bad,

but what I, what I've, what I've learned, especially as an organizational leader, especially as a church

planter is that I am not authorized to just take the community anywhere I want because I'm, I've got an

idea. That's not the way this works. The way this works is I submit myself. I create space.

I listen well. And then I check in with the community of people that I'm connected with my

local church or whatever. Hey, here's what I feel. God's telling me. What do you think? And this is,

this has been good counsel for me personally. I've passed along this kind of counsel to others

and it seems to help. So that's what I can offer you today in terms of how do I know a good or a bad

idea? There's other metrics. Of course you can bring, is this going to, uh, you know,

one of the metrics that I always use for an idea, does it help or hurt what God's trying to do?

Um, does it help or hurt? Uh, and then the other one that I always, there's another filter. I always

runs through my head is will this empower others, uh, as much as it empowers me or I, or I think it's a

good idea. So if it's not good for Jeff, it's probably not good for me at the same time. And so I'm,

I always kind of wrestled through those filters a little bit. It's a little sketchy, but I hope I give

you a little bit of a sense of where this comes from. No, I appreciate that. By, by the way, the

look at the community around you and get a vibe for them. Transparently, that's, that's the reason

why we started Digital Church Network. That's, that's why I left Stadia to create that. Cause after

helping, you know, the couple dozen planters or whatever we're able to work through with Stadia,

actually planting the church, getting them through the, their, the exhaustive process, we really, um,

started seeing that the problem wasn't at the plant or at the cohort, but we were losing a lot of people

because they didn't have the, the sending organization, the sending denomination, the, the, the, the spouse

support, like the, the community to lean on there. There wasn't awareness before they even got to,

to Stadia to plant. And, and, you know, quickly it just became obvious. Hey, there, there's,

there's a need. If we're really going to make a difference in this, we can't do it

within the planter at that point in the process within the cohort. We've really got to go create

that community, which is now DCN's fam. We got to create that community and invite others in and

encourage them through the community. And that's something that as leaders, DCN, I mean, we,

we, in a leadership meeting yesterday, we were talking about how to be more effective and how to

utilize the networks that we're creating within DCN, how to encourage dreaming outside, even bringing

others into that. And so like, it's the desire. I didn't, Patrick, I didn't know you were going to

say that, but that right there is the summarization of, of why, uh, DCN is DCN. I love your heart for

community. And even what you've helped me understand, Jeff, is even in the digital space, um, you know,

we're still embodied individuals and we still need community. Uh, and, and God uses that. And that's

where it happened. You know, imagination happens in the context of that community. Um, you know,

the business world and other parts of the world, it's like, Oh, I got an idea and I'm going to go

make money off of that. We don't do that. Uh, we, we, we dream these missional dreams and we submit

them to the community and the community does it. And so I love, love, love that you have, um, you've made

this a real point, uh, in your family. And it's why we are so passionate at new thing about starting,

uh, new things, but we're equally committed to sustaining things. And that's our network. Uh,

and so, uh, Jeff, I just affirm it, love it. Can't encourage any of your listeners who are trying to do

this alone, especially in the digital space, hook up with this family. Like, seriously, don't do this

alone. God's not called you to do it alone. Um, and, and go on this journey together. You'll have

much more fun and it will be much more fruitful. I guarantee you that.

That's awesome. Well, let me ask this. So, um, you know, oftentimes when I hear this is what I tell

people. So I'm kind of asking the head of new thing network here, is this a good next step or what,

what would you do better here? So when I hear a crazy idea that just might work, um, my, my,

my, my next step, uh, my next challenge to these people is usually who's bought into this vision.

Have you tried casting it? You know, and sometimes the vision is so, um, scattered. I'm like,

you're not going to be able to convince anybody of this. You're going to have to simplify it and

solidify it down. Sometimes it's so small. It's like, you're going to need to like beef it up.

Um, but you know, and start to kind of crowdsource some of that information. You're talking about the

community around you as well, but there's also a part of, Hey, this vision needs to be bigger than

you. So start to see how you can recruit or bring people into this idea of missional imagination.

What, what is, what, what do you recommend on that? Is, is that, is that a good angle or

what, what's a better step?

No, no, no. You, I think you've got it brother, because it's also a safeguard for, uh, again,

the, the, and let me answer it this way. It's a safeguard. It's a, uh, it's a speed bump because

here's for those of us in the Western context. And I just, I want to be culturally sensitive here a

minute. We're, you know, we're minority, we're the minority church, the majority churches in places

like Asia and Africa in the Western context, you know, again, no criticism, no, no defeatism here.

We tend to be the folks who will say, I'll do it. I'll go first. Not that our African brothers or

Indian brothers don't, what they do is probably a little bit more wiser, sit around and talk about

it a bit more, um, and say, how are we going to do this? So one of the, you know, one of the great

proverbs, uh, from, from Africa that I always use is if you want to go fast, you go alone,

but if you want to go far, you got to go together. And that's what I would, um, hope that all of us

learn to do. Uh, the other, the other thing, Jeff, that I'd say is, um, in being part of a community

like this, especially for a missional imaginist is that you, um, you get to hear what God's doing

in other contexts. So, so very recently we went through dream week and dream week, uh, at commute

at, uh, at new thing is just this opportunity for us to listen, learn, and celebrate the global church.

Uh, so for one week, um, we just, we did that. And I have, I have a notebook full of ideas of insights

of shared learning, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because that is where the, the, the, the true

nature of partnership, uh, comes to play partnership at its, at its base definition is we're going to do

something together that neither of us can do alone. And that has to be negotiated out. So I hope that

gives some of your, your listeners kind of a filter or a lens. Uh, it's not the, I got an idea. I'm going

to go solo and do it. Um, it's having some of those speed bumps. I'm going to submit myself,

not in an authoritative way, but Hey, this is my tribe. This is my community. Uh, we're on mission

together. And I've got an idea that I think can help make it better for all of us and increase

through for the, for the kingdom. That's a good idea. And so those are just some of the ways that,

because this is all about relationships for us. You know, this Jeff, it is all about relationships.

Yes. I hope we have great content. Yes. I hope we help churches reproduce at all levels,

whether it's micro digital macro, I don't care. Yes. I hope we create some collaborative spaces,

but it is about building community and it is about people. And that's how Jesus postures himself in

this world. And so I want to just stay there. Hey, awesome. This has been great. So what else

beyond missional imagination, what else do we need to talk about here? What else do we need to be

considering? Yeah, I think, um, I think making the connection from missional imagination to

missional culture. So Jeff, you've asked some really good questions on the kind of the, my dream

and the vivid vision and all the stuff that we've covered, but I think it's equally important.

What we're really doing here is leaders in particular, whether it's in the digital space,

whether it's in micro, whether it's in, um, virtual, uh, and, and really doesn't matter

culturally where our job as, as leaders of these communities is to create a culture where mission

is a priority. Um, and the only way you do that is by giving people permission, equipping them for the

mission that God's called them to do and sending them well. And if you could do those things consistently

over time, we've seen that you're going to plant new things, you're going to make disciples, you're going

to do all the things that we all want to see happen for the kingdom of God. So as a leader,

and I'm specifically thinking of those of you who are listening to this, who are asking themselves,

am I, am I the leader of this community? Am I the, am I the chaperone of this community? Am I the

pastor of this community? Probably all the above. Uh, and what, what my, my hope is, is that this

will inspire you to think, uh, think of your own mission imagination, but help others unleash their

initial imagination. And that's through permission giving. I know it sounds almost too easy, but as human

beings, we don't necessarily like change. Uh, and when we try to change things, we often don't have the

answers of what a preferred future should look like. Think about some of the old, your, the

circumstances of your own life. If you could be a culture that creates this missional space

that makes the Jesus mission, the primary thing, and then everything else is really the strategy and

tactics that is going to unleash and unlock this missional imagination in each and every woman and

man that is a part of your community. God is going to see it. He's going to bless it. And there's

going to be great fruit for the kingdom. So that's what I would say there.

Awesome. That was beautiful. And by the way, like, like I said, this is the first part of the

conversation. Yeah. We talked about, uh, missional imagination. We, we talked about building a culture

and, and the culture is not an easy thing to, to build, but it's, it's, it's simple in focus of

what it can be. And so we want to hear from you and we want to take the second part of this. We want

to make it far more practical. All right. We talked about this earlier. Quick interruption

here with the podcast. The missional imagination round table is going to be a Tuesday, October

4th, 7 PM Eastern. We'd love to get more information to you. Check out the website, thechurch.digital

slash imagination. And let's get, let's get you connected into this round table Tuesday, October 4th,

7 PM Eastern. More information, check out thechurch.digital slash imagination. Patrick, man,

thanks for jumping on the podcast. Uh, as, as we're landing the plane here, man, in any closing

thoughts? No, I would say, don't forget the, the outcome of all this is movement. Uh, we like to say

a new thing, missional people, multiplying churches and collaborative networks lead us to movement. So

if you're wondering how do we really change the game in a big way for Jesus, that's the way we do

it. Love this conversation, Jeff, and thanks for the opportunity to chat with you. All right. As we're

landing the plane on the podcast and wrapping things up, quick reminder of the missional imagination

round table. We are doing Tuesday, October 4th, 7 PM Eastern. For more information on the missional

imagination round table, check out thechurch.digital slash imagination, thechurch.digital

slash imagination. Patrick will be there, myself and others. It'll be 7 PM Eastern on Tuesday,

October 4th. Go ahead and RSVP, get the link to get a reminder for your calendar Tuesday, October 4th,

7 PM. We're going to land the plane. Thank you, Patrick, for being on the show and, uh, we'll see

you next time here on the church digital podcast. Y'all have a good day.