EP234: Michael Beck & The Rural, Digital Church

In one year, we had like a hundred people. This is a church that had 12 people worship, right?

That grew to a hundred people by just like expanding out and starting church for people

where they actually were at a time that worked for them and a place that worked for them around

something they actually like to do, like eat barbecue. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible

digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church

operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big

or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help

churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart that

churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your

church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital

Podcast. It's Jeff Reed here once again. Great being here doing this podcast. Hey, listen, you know,

I don't put a lot of commercials up here at the beginning of this stuff, but if you've not checked

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Hey, you know what? We'll put the link in the show notes. And that was a 45-second commercial,

and we're going to call it done. You know, it's interesting. We were talking off air.

I get a lot of requests. I get a lot of calls. I talk to a lot of churches. And there's several

questions that I get that I don't really have a good answer to. And so honestly, the question that,

which is when I saw your book was coming out, Fresh Expressions on Rural Churches, I'm like,

whoa, Michael, the guy who deals with fresh expressions, the guy that understands digital

and metaverse. He's writing a book on that. I want to talk to him about what digital looks like

in rural, because I get people asking me, and I don't have a solid answer. And so like, that's the

heart where I want to go with this podcast. But maybe even just to kick it off here, why don't you

talk a little bit about you? Introduce yourself to the audience here at the podcast. Talk about the

book, why you wrote it, kind of with the heart behind that, and give us the life update.

Sure. So I'm a United Methodist clergy person, and I've served rural congregations in my whole

ministry. The first church I was sent to was La Calusa, Florida, which if you ever read Marjorie

Kennan Rawlings, The Yearling, she wrote that book in a cabin or in that area around La Calusa there.

Middle of nowhere, no post office, no Walmart, no nothing, 12 people in the congregation, little

white, kind of idyllic congregation building out in the middle of a swamp area. And so I've

served several rural congregations since then, up until my current place, and always just saw the Holy Spirit

do amazing creative ministry in those areas. And many times I've included a digital component.

And if I could just say quickly about Fresh Expressions, then maybe back into the rural piece

of it. Fresh Expressions is about being church with people that don't go to church, connecting

with people that, you know, we use those terms, nuns, no religious affiliation, duns, those ones,

bad Christians, helping the good people, people who've been harmed by the church. And so we're

realizing, you know, a vast majority of the population is not going to come to an inherited

congregation on a Sunday morning, no matter how good you do it, no matter how good the coffee

is or the worship band or whatever. And so we're kind of going out and creating these new Christian

communities in the daily spaces, rhythms where people do life. And so rural spaces, actually,

just a quick little like biblical piece on this, but God's saving activity, whenever God launches

something big, he always starts in the wilderness. Like he sent Abraham out into the wilderness, right? He called

Moses in a burning bush in the wilderness to go back to Egypt, right? Jesus was a rural person. He grew up in a

little Nazareth, a little hole in the wall town that was in the middle of nowhere, right? And it's there

that kind of the ministry and then in Galilee, that most of his ministry took place. So God does big things

in the wilderness. And in the United States context, the rural church has been one of the few like

permanent stakeholders in rural communities. The, the, the United States, these kind of crazy

missionaries, you know, Methodists, Baptists, these really kind of subvergent

kinds of church planters were just going all over the place, leaving this new constellation of new

Christian communities. And, and like Methodists specifically and many others, they actually had

a rural strategy. Like Francis Asbury said, I want to channel resources from the circumference to the

edge. And so he was going around doing these camp meetings and going in rural spaces and just kind

of cultivating these new Christian communities all over the place. Very much like what, what we kind

of do with, with fresh expressions of church. Um, and so the rural church really has, um, uh, a place

that can bring vitality, uh, to rural spaces in an amazing way. Um, so the rural congregation has

assets. And I think a lot of people, they, they talk about rural church, like it's just like a

demotion or if you're a pastor, he gets into a rural church, you're like, you didn't do something

right. Or maybe you're fresh out of seminary or a retired person usually. Um, and, and so the rural

church feels like it's this like thorn bush in the foot of progress and it gets dismissed and forgotten.

Um, but God is doing incredible, amazing things in rural contexts all over the world. And so the

book, we wanted to highlight those stories, um, and, and show diversity across the country of people

doing really cool and innovative ministry in rural spaces and kind of provide a theology and like a

framework for how to go about doing it. Um, and just on the, on the internet piece, on the, um,

digital forms of church that can take, like, the other thing is we stereotype rural and we think,

Oh, rural all looks like this. And we have this image of rural, whatever back country people or

whatever. Um, actually rural communities are incredibly diverse. And so if you know,

one rural community, you know, one rural community, um, like Metamora, Ohio is a very different kind of

rural than Wildwood, Florida, um, or, or where Jeff went mud in, uh, in Ocala, right. Um, those are

very different kinds of rurals and they have, um, you know, very different ecosystems that support life.

And one of the things that the rural church can do is create like a place economy that, that has a

kingdom vision of like God's shalom, uh, wellness to the wholeness of a place. Um, and so a rural

church can be the place where people have different political perspectives. It's the one place like they

come together each week. The rural church can have the one like third place in a community. It's really

the only kind of community center sometimes for miles where people can come together to do rituals and

kind of things like that. So there's really so many assets and on the, on the digital piece, it can be

churches that are doing like phone. Uh, I've seen rural congregations doing really creative things with

like a phone, uh, ministry, like they're joining and having worship by phone. Um, I've seen rural

churches that expand their ministry like, uh, massively like across whole regions by doing really creative things

online and, and doing what usually big churches can't do, which can tend to be like more kind of the big show

and the worship band and all those things. And it's, it's more generic in that sense, but rurals can, uh, rural

congregations can really do creative and intimate, like talk to people experiencing isolation and create

things specifically for people, um, and online spaces that could be more challenging for, for bigger

churches. But yeah, sorry, that's a lot. No, no, no. We don't, we don't, we don't talk a lot about

numbers. Let me, let me ask this. And so like, um, I'm asking, I'm going to ask this question on numbers

just to maybe get, and stereotypes, not a right, right word, but just to get a grasp on like

definitively what a rural church is or, or how it is. And yes, everything's different. There's a lot

of contextualization, I'm sure. But you know, I hear looking at us stats that only 8% of people in

America that attend church, uh, attended church over a thousand people. And so it's by far, it's smaller.

I, you know, I pre COVID, I think this, the average church in America was 78 or 82 people. Last time I

actually saw a formal stat on that. Um, like when, when we say rural, rural, if I can say the word

correctly, you know, it seems to me like that would be like a, a, say smaller, um, you know, a lot of

times urban, we look at church plants, like I'm at a church plant. We're got 120, 150. And so it's a

much more intimate, relational community gathering. Um, are these words that act adequately describe

the rural experience as well? Intimate, smaller, relational, like, are these the ones of a rural

church?

Yeah, I think so. And the vast majority of congregations, you know, like you said, it's a

very small percent of the population that actually is in these, these really, you know, mega sized

churches. The vast majority of congregations are smaller, midsize, and a lot of them rural. Um,

like I was sharing Francis Asbury with his whole strategy. Um, they were, they were barnstorming

the back country, man. They were, they were like the urban centers had more emphasis on educated

clergy and like buildings and such. And, um, these more like insurgent forms of Christianity that

were spreading all over rural spaces were smaller, more intimate. Um, but where, where they planted

churches, kind of like community sprung up around the, the churches. So like, have you ever been

through a rural space and you see like five, like there's nothing out there, but there's five churches

maybe. Um, and that's cause that they were kind of just spreading that all over the place. So those

are everywhere. They're, they're all over the United States, those rural congregations.

It would, it would seem to me there's an opportunity and maybe this is just me being too aggressive. And

so I'm willing to be told, shut up, Jeff. Um, like, uh, a church network, um, like multiplication

of, of churches. Like, I think there, uh, maybe centralization is too strong and we need to,

you know, decentralize and focus more on contextualization. But is there, is, is there like

rural networks of, of churches? Do they collaborate and work together on this? Is anybody trying that?

There are, you know, I just think of, uh, the North central district in Florida. Um, and there's

a rural church network there where the idea is let's, let's connect and resource each other. And,

um, you know, one of the things you lifted up about the challenge of the rural context can be

internet, right. And it can be super expensive and not available. One of the really creative

things I've seen churches do. And I'm thinking of like, uh, Jessica Taylor, who's doing this RV church

network, which is like literally living in RV incarnationally and RV communities and RV and

lots more young people and middle-aged people are doing this now. Um, and she's using like a Starlink

satellite, um, and, and, and use providing internet. Uh, and I've seen rural congregations do this,

like create a space where people can actually access internet. Um, and people can come like,

even just sit in the parking lot and go out, go on internet. Cause it, it can be harder in some

rural context, not all of them. Some of them have just wifi is just fine. But, um, but so yeah,

providing that and seeing the rural church as a way to like allow, uh, access online and facilitate

that in the community can actually be a way to kind of create your church, have your church become like

a hub. Yeah. I mean, what an interesting contact context of, of a hub. Um, you know, it's, it's,

I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think who I was talking with, but there's, uh, I think it was,

it was one or two denominations probably over the past year, uh, that was really interested in exploring

digital, um, because they were wanting to, it's, it's interesting. Like you're, you're, you're,

you're phrasing, uh, internet's hard to get, like that wasn't a picture that was painted to me,

but there were, there were several that were wanting several denominations that were wanting

to explore digital expressions of church and rural, um, even like micro site expressions or micro

locations where a centralized church would broadcast the services online into homes in the neighboring

towns and areas and use the online broadcast as a way to even get a footprint to, to start to get a,

a foothold, uh, within, within the towns or cities. Um, how much of an issue is internet in,

in, in rural? I know that's a very broad statement like, um, contextualization, but, uh, you know,

I know, shoot, I live in Miami, Florida. I'm down here in the suburbs and my internet's garbage.

Uh, so, uh, I, I think everywhere is like, is there, um, is there no access? Is it just limited

access with only one provider? Um, would a digital expression, um, you know, how, how do you overcome

maybe some of those challenges, uh, with, uh, internet? Yeah. So I personally have never had a

challenge with internet in any of the rural churches that I've served. It's always been

just as shoddy as it is in the city. Um, but I have heard stories and, um, I do a lot of trainings

with pastors and stuff, trying to help them think about the special expressions idea and how to do

it from their local context. So, um, that can, you know, maybe that's just, uh, uh, like a way to

say, you know, we don't really want to do this, but I have heard of places that have had challenges

with internet access. I think that there's new technologies like satellite accessible internet

and these things that are readily available that really kind of, you can essentially, I think,

have internet and essentially any space, but I think maybe that it is harder to access or maybe

it's the cost that's the challenge. Like it can be $150 or something for a church to add internet

services. And so they see that as a kind of a barrier. Um, uh, and, and, you know, those are real

challenges that we have to deal with, but I love your idea about how we're seeing churches use internet

and online and create and expand their, their reach, um, into places like we got rural congregations

that have way more people in their online communities and participating in digital forms of church

than they have in their like Sunday morning, 11 a.m. gathering. So you can think of this as like a

blended ecology of four different forms of church, the inherited onsite and the online forms kind of

all living together. And it really gives a rural church a way to expand massively, uh, their, their

ministries. Culturally within rural, is there, is there an acceptance of technology? Is there, is it,

is there a fear of technology? Is it, um, irrelevance? Like, um, you know, I mean, social media,

maybe Facebook, uh, metaverse, virtual reality, you know, some of the bleeding edge stuff,

like kind of what's the, what's the temperature check for, for technology in general, generally

speaking, you know, throughout, throughout some of these rural and, and smaller communities.

Yeah. You know, that's a really contextually, uh, specific answer. Like if you're up in Ohio

where there's lots of communities that, um, they're still doing like, you know, horse drawn

buggies and stuff and, and choosing that kind of a, a way of, um, like the Anabaptist kind

of way of being church. Um, but I think generally overall my experience, and I can't speak for

everybody, but there's been a, a more of a resistance to utilizing technology in inherited

rural congregations, um, than you might find in a, in an urban space. Um, like, and it may

just be like the tradition. One of the beautiful things about rural churches is they carry tradition

and story for a whole community. Right. And they sing it and they dance it and they enact

it in their worship. And it's one of the ways that they hold on to like values, history, story.

Um, and that's really important, but some of that can also create like some resistance to,

oh, this online, this pastor is talking about doing this online thing with a headset. What's

going on here? So I have heard some of that, you know, in the churches that I serve. Um, but I

think it's also maybe more of a generational thing because the churches that in United Methodism

tend older, chronologically mature. Um, so that could be part of that too.

You know, I'm, I'm actually going to ask this question a different way because like you,

you also run living room church VR, like you've done virtual reality ministry. Um, do you,

have you, when that context, have you interacted with anybody from, from like small town America,

rural spaces? Uh, like I'm, I'm even wondering what the, what the headset exposure is in some of these,

like even with the kids at, you know, at the gamer level or the, the user level, what,

what's been your exposure in that?

That's a really, really good question.

I mean, that, that's hard because the avatar, it's hard to really figure out who it is and

where they are. And I was just curious if you, maybe you had a story or something that popped up.

Yeah. You know, now that I think about it, cause we open every living room church, uh,

gathering with the avatars kind of go around and share where they're from. And, um, I mean,

it, it mostly is people in cities. Um, I'd have to do a little more research thinking about that,

but yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. That's, um, I might, I might have to start,

I might have to start asking that question a little more often. Like what's the, what's the

adoption rate, uh, for, for some of this technology in rural spaces? Is it, um, transferring over

there? Anyway, conversation, conversation for another day. So like, what is, and we can keep

talking tech with, with, uh, digital would love to, but like when you wrote this book, fresh expressions

in digital, like what are examples of, of fresh? I just, I love fresh expressions, unique expressions.

Like we've been on a kick the past couple months, um, here at the church digital, um, featuring unique

expressions of church, um, bar churches, um, uh, you know, gamer churches, biker churches, like it's

been. And so rural is going to be unique, but I'm just kind of curious. What's a, what's a fresh

expression in a rural context? What does that look like? Yeah. So a couple examples, um, like in

Loch Lusa where we, we had 12 people and worship our first Sunday and, uh, literally, uh, the population

of Loch Lusa is like 50 people, like the whole, the whole, uh, Loch Lusa. So we started connecting

with, um, uh, the next town up Hawthorne, Florida, and there's a diner there. It was like kind of a hub

for the community. People were coming from all over to the diner on Sundays. We started connecting with the

Diane's diner, um, host servers and waitresses and waiters and just making those relationships.

And, and one day I popped the question. I was like, Hey, uh, why don't y'all ever come to church?

You know, we'd build this relationship over time. And they're like, um, cause we're here taking care

of you Christians on Sundays, dummy. We couldn't come to church if we wanted to. Right. So we said,

well, what if we created a church for you? Like, where would it meet? What would it look like?

Um, so we started this little fresh expression in the Diane's diner around barbecue and, um, uh,

good, good, good Southern barbecue and sharing a Jesus story and having a time of prayer and, uh,

just really started connecting that community. And, and by in one year we had like a hundred people,

this is a church that had 12 people worship, right? That grew to a hundred people by just

like expanding out and starting church for people where they actually were at a time that worked for

them and a place that worked for them around something they actually like to do, like eat barbecue.

Um, and so I think of the, the diversity of, of rural fresh expressions we've seen like Tyler Kleeberger

in Metamora, Ohio. Uh, and he, he had black mold in his, in his, uh, existing church.

And so it was the gift of desperation, right? And the church had to close. And so they started having

these barn parties, um, and just meeting in a barn and having conversations about Jesus and prayer.

And, um, the congregation started to grow through the barn parties. And then they built a building

that's essentially a barn. Uh, but it's like a cool looking, like modern barn. But so they have a

farmer's market in there. They have a couple of times a week where they, uh, people get to come in and sell

their stuff in there. Uh, they have, uh, beer nights and food and somebody cooks and the community comes

in and has all these meals. Um, they also like do farming and, and raising, you know, crops and all

those things. So, you know, they're really like owning the rural space and, and turning the church

into like a center of the community. Um, and I just, uh, you know, I could go on like, uh, I know a pastor

doing, uh, equine therapy in a rural space where they have lots of horses and, uh, her name's Stacy

Spence. And, um, they're, they've actually started a church around horses and equine therapy and,

and doing that together. Um, and, you know, I've seen churches in fishing holes, uh, in, in rural

spaces and churches in, um, you know, around, uh, hunting, uh, where a group of people that like to

hunt, get together and have a time of prayer and scripture, and then they go hunt, you know, it's,

it's pretty much as diverse as a rural place can be. These expressions of church are kind of spring,

springing up out of that diversity. What's the, what's the contextualization

between, uh, I mean, I'm sure it's a huge jump between, um, you know, uh, urban church role, uh,

you know, a mega church and, and, and maybe some of these more smaller contexts, but even like city

to city, um, you know, Northeast rural U S you know, new England rural versus Miami rural versus,

you know, I don't know, Oregon rural, um, like what, what types of things are, are we looking,

what nuances, contextualizations are we going to see through some of these changes?

Yeah. I mean, the diversity that you just described is, is incredible. Um, it could be,

you know, rural can be a farming community, um, that, that life really rotate, uh, centers around

production of crops, right. Uh, a rural space can be like, uh, a lake community,

like Loclusa where the local fishing industry is kind of the, the key, uh, to the economy.

It can be, um, you know, like in Wildwood, it was once a kind of a hub for a railroad.

Um, and so a little kind of town sprung up around the railroad and then the railroad moved and, uh,

the, the economic, uh, situation kind of depressed for a while and people had to find new and creative

ways, uh, to make a living and, um, that, the, every rural space can have such diversity. It's,

um, and also, I mean, that there's a racial diversity in, in rural context. People assume

that there's just maybe one race of people that are rural, that there's a real diversity there as well.

Um, different races and, uh, how rural communities look, um, in that and the different kind of

economies that arise out of that. So yeah, contextualization, I think is the key of like

understanding. Um, I love this word, uh, terroir. So like, um, terroir is, it's, uh, if you taste a coffee or,

or, or like a chocolate, um, when you, when you taste a wine, um, it has a terroir, a somewhereness.

The word literally translates somewhereness. It's French. Um, uh, that all these kind of

environmental factors that come together, like produce a grape or a coffee bean or a chocolate,

uh, uh, you can taste that, right? You can taste the contextuality. And I think one of the

really cool things about rural ministry is understanding the terroir, the somewhereness,

kind of the flavor of a community and helping church kind of spring up contextually, organically

out of that is really, I think a key rather than just trying to plant, you know, the McDonaldized

version of the church that looks the same in every context and that building's the same, worship's the

same, but really helping the, the, the learn, being a learner and a student of your place

and helping church spring out in a way that's faithful to that place and faithful to the people

who inhabit that place.

So interesting. Is there any consistency? Is, is there a centralized thread as we're talking about

all of these decentralized or contextualized environments? What's, what's the, what's the same?

I think the consistent thing is like, um, the, the feeling that rural people have of being forgotten,

neglected, unimportant. Um, and that creates a kind of a, a culture of resistance, right? And, um,

I think that, um, there's a, there's a, there's a similar kind of mindset in many rural places.

And I don't want to just make a huge universal statement about all rural places, but that,

you know, there's a tendency for, for the world and all the centers of power to be urban and urban

centers of learning and all those things. And so rural people can feel forgotten. Um, and I try to work

with that like subversive spirit in a rural context and, and the way that rural people hold onto their

faith and values, um, in community, um, and, and belonging. Um, and sometimes you don't find that so

much in, in urban places, but rural people really value, uh, togetherness and, and I don't want to

like idealize rural. It has all its own challenges and stuff. And depending on these different stereotypes

that you get, it's like, Oh, every rural place is, you know, people smoking crystal meth and,

you know, struggling with drug addiction or, you know, backwards people. But I find highly spiritual,

highly educated, highly just sensitive people who love God, um, inhabit rural places. And, and,

and they're really a gift. I think rural places are a gift to the world, maybe to remind us to slow down a

little bit, take Sabbath, uh, connect with the God of the wilderness, you know,

go get lost somewhere. That that's interesting. Um, is, is that the, what, what, what's the biggest issue

facing the, the rural church today? I mean, uh, urban, you know, there's, there's political mess,

there's, um, there's racial tensions. Like, are, are, are we seeing kind of the, the typical mess that we

would see in urban centers? Are we seeing that in rural? Are they dealing with a completely different

set of problems? Um, are they trying to get everybody back to the building and nobody's going

back to the building? Like what's, what's, what's the thing that keep, that's keeping the rural pastor

up at night?

Great, great question. And, um, I think the greatest challenge in rural communities is, um,

kind of a lack of imagination. And, um, sometimes those beautiful things that are so important,

like carrying on those traditions and having a really kind of, uh, predetermined idea about what

church can be and how it can happen and what's supposed to happen in it can also be a limitation.

And, um, there's like an imaginative gridlock, uh, that takes place where if we have this really

tight definition of what church is, when it can happen, where it can happen. And we don't have

an imagination of, you know, a Tyler Kleeberger who says, let's just have barn parties and that could

be church. Right. Or, uh, you know, uh, Stacy Spence who says, well, there's a lot of horses out here

in horse therapy. Why don't we create churches around that? Um, so rural, the, the decline and

the loss of like members is I think more pronounced in rural. So like if you have a congregation of 20

people and, you know, I think the statistics that came is like one in three people returned from COVID

or whatever pandemic, there's some really hard statistics out there. That's a lot for a rural

congregation. Like just a couple people missing, right. Can really change it. So that's, that's a

huge challenge in that decline. We get stuck in maintenance and, and, and, and we just kind of keep

doing the same stuff rather than an imagination for, Oh, what, what have we went out and re-imagined what

church can be in this rural place and re-imagine ways to connect with each other and share the gospel

and be in relationship together. Um, I think that's actually the greatest challenge. It's not

that the resources aren't there, that the people aren't there, that the assets aren't there in a

rural community. Uh, it's, it's the biggest challenge is like catching a new imagination for

what the church can be. Is it, um, you know what I find in digital, I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting.

You, one of your books, you wrote missional imagination, like that's, that's, that's one of

your, your phrases, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, it's, it's, uh, actually we're doing a podcast soon with, uh,

Patrick, who's the, uh, global director of new thing network. And he, and he uses the phrase

missional imagination too. I'm not choosing which one of you said it first. And if neither of you

trademarked it, then I will, and then I'll own the word and you all can, you know, take it from me.

But, um, you know, and so like, I just, I, I've heard that missional imagination phrase and it's

really, it's been resonating with me. Like I've even started to, to bake it in. And I, I did a,

I put a talk on YouTube talking about, you know, missional imagination, tying it into async,

asynchronous communities, um, conversation for another day. But what, where I want to get with this is that

when, when, when I started having conversations with digital and digital planters or people that

were interested, like the first 200 people I had conversations with, there was no, like nobody was

doing this. And the first 200 people, I basically had to give them permission to do what they had in

their head. Um, because nobody in their life was giving them permission. The, the pastor of the church

they went to thought it was heresy. The denomination didn't care one bit, even their spouse and their

friends, just because they had never seen that idea happen really weren't supportive of it because

there was no, um, there was no paradigm. There was no, um, model. There was, there was nobody who

was actually doing it. And now, you know, now there's a couple of hundred successful digital churches,

churches that follow somewhat of a biblical footprint. Now, now when somebody calls me up and says, Hey,

you know, I've, I've got this crazy idea. Um, I go, Oh yeah. Hey, some, actually I know a friend of

mine that's doing something similar to that. Let me introduce you. And so it's, it's a, it's a little

more accepted. They may still need permission, but I'm curious, like, are there, are, is it lack of

ideas or is it a lack of approval? Is it like, what, where's the, where's the bottleneck in the rural

context? Are there, are there people that have ideas and just don't know where to go to execute

them? Are there, are there dreams and just, that's where the dreams go to die? Is it there's, there's,

you know, without vision, people perish. And so there's no vision to do something different. Like,

what's, what's your take on that? Yeah. And, you know, Jeff, you've been on the front end of like

the digital church movement, you know, from the beginning. So you've seen this all kind of transform

and spring up, but I would say like the biggest disappointment for me has been, um, like my

inherited folks, uh, they just were not connecting with our digital stuff at all really. Um, and we

created this amazing online campus, 1400 people. We were connecting with people all over the country,

joining new people into it. But what I was hearing from my inherited church folks, and again, you know,

this is generational too, and there's all kinds of things. It's not just rural, it's generational,

it's cultural, but they just weren't connecting like I was in a digital space. Like when I'm with my

homies in digital, digital, like we're having church, we're going deep. I feel the Holy Spirit.

I'm feeling like God is present and Lord of the metaverse, uh, you know, um, and, and those

relationships are deep and they're real. And it just, my inherited church folks were like, it's just

not, it's just not real for us. It's just not church for us. It's just like, we're, we're excited.

You're doing it. We're not trying to stop you, but we're not really like, can you get us back in the

building and get the handles out? And so I had to learn like to balance this kind of like caring for

them, nurturing them because they've, they've given their parish presence, give service witness

to the church. Right. But not letting that confine the, all the possibilities with, with digitality and,

and cultivating church and the metaverse. Um, so I just kind of got a small team of people

and we just started experimenting and doing it. Um, but I think it's pastors can really get stuck in

that like, Oh, it's not connecting with my people. So what's the, you know, and then I hate to say

this even, but people just have such this limited view of online church. Like anybody I talk to online

church, they're like, yeah, I'm doing online church. And what they're really talking about is

they're streaming their worship services. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, you know, maybe a new form of

digital colonialism there. Like we're streaming into a place. We've not been invited speaking a

language. We only speak, um, and, and we need to stream worship and there's a proper time and place

and all that. And I think it's more probably for people that are already part of the church than

like a missional thing, but that's not online church, right? There's so much more to what online

churches, online churches, relationships and discipleship and worship and spending time together

in digitality. Um, and, and so that's another barrier I think that's there, but you know, that's,

that's hard when, when you love something and you put a lot of energy into it and it just feels like

your inherited congregation is not really connecting with it.

I, I feel it's funny. Like I've had this conversation with several other

digital planters and, and, and metaverse guys and gals. Almost, I feel like we need a new word.

Um, you know, I, I think church and, and it is, forgive me if I sound sacrilegious. I'm,

I'm not at all trying to be sacrilegious in this moment, but the word church almost has so much

extra biblical outside of what scripture is, um, complications attached to it at this point in

2022. I'm not sure we can really resurrect that word to at least here in America to align it to

what we, we want it to, you know? And so it's, it's, it's really, it's been the struggle and, um,

it's interesting, even church online, um, digital, uh, I had the, the honor, I'm not going to drop

names. I'm actually trying to get them to do a podcast with me, but there, there's a, um, uh,

another nationally published author that, uh, has written a, a very well-known book and, uh,

had the honor of meeting with them and, uh, and I want him to get them on the podcast because the dude

hates digital, like in this very popular Christian book, he is very outspoken on how he hates social

media, toxic culture, and just rattles off on, on all this stuff. And, and I have this honor,

I have the pleasure of meeting him. He's a very relational focused guy. And I had the honor of,

of meeting him on, on, on a, on a Friday night, shook his hand and said, Hey, I'm a digital guy.

And he gives me the side eye like immediately. And I was like, no, no, no. I actually agree with

everything you said in your book. Um, when I say digital, I'm actually more like the relational

stuff that you talk about. I'm more of a micro church in digital space than I am what you are

now assuming of me in digital. And that just opened up, you know, for him, it was a completely

separate conversation because he just had this negative connotation because dude hates Facebook.

And let's be honest, who among us does not hate, we all hate Facebook. It's, it's, it's,

it's like the, um, it's, it's, it's the lesser of evils. It's like, you got to use it to,

to do the ministry, but at the same time, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're skeptical. And so

like there's not, he's not lying. He's not, none of this is wrong, but there's just an opportunity

to do some different stuff with it. And, uh, you know, I could see in rural context, I could see

that being a battle. You have to constantly, because of some of the relationships with some

of the smaller churches, um, with smaller churches and more relational context, just constantly,

I would imagine battling that battle.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, there, there's a lot there that's so true, the toxicity of all that.

And like people think about content creation as online church and all of that. And I think you

and I are talking about, we're having a whole different conversation that I believe digitality,

like distance contact, um, across, you know, through, through flows, um, create a new kind of

space. Um, like just like a city creates a space and it facilitates relationship and you bump into

people, the online space that we inhabit kind of is its own place where relationships can form and

community conform and, um, trying to help have people get away from this, you know, just online as, you

know, content production and streaming stuff and all that. Um, it's really, really hard and challenging.

I would, I'll, I'll, I'll be honest. I go to, like I said, I go to a church plant where 125

people at this point probably been open. I mean, we haven't even hit a one year anniversary yet in,

in Miami, Miami is where church plants go to die traditionally, but, but love, love my church.

We're not, we're not broadcasting our church services online, you know? Um, yeah, I actually,

I had heard, I've heard a couple of people say this, but I told my pastor, I was like, if you really

express, if you really respect the live environment, don't put it online. Um, like respect what you're

doing enough to not cheapen up by putting it online, do something else online. And, um, and that has

really, that's resonated within our, within our church. And we're, you know, we're trying to figure

out what that other thing is and, and, and, and regularly having conversations about how to adjust

that. And, um, but it's, it's, uh, you know, I know the resources of, of a rural church, you know,

are, are nothing compared to a, uh, a mega mega urban church, which is, you know, where most of my

background's from. Uh, and so the little resources that you have, and you know, it's funny, you, you,

you actually said, Michael, you were like, Hey, yeah, just, uh, I mean, you got to broadcast the

church service. And in my mind, I'm like, do you really, do you really have to like, is it possible

to not broadcast the church service? And, but, but do something else, not the church service with,

with, with that resource in that time, because whatever the other thing is, I got to believe

is going to be more effective for the kingdom or could be more effective for the kingdom. Uh,

then, then that broadcasting of that church service would be your, your digital imperialism.

I'm going to borrow that too. Like that, that I'll, I'll follow that away. That was,

that was good. No, that was so good. And I'm a hundred percent in agreement. That's why we don't

stream our worship services in our, on our Sunday morning gatherings, because you can't actually be

present with two groups of people in two different spaces at one time. It's neurochemically, physically,

in every other way impossible. So we create online church for online people and online spaces,

and we create onsite church for onsite people. And I love what you said about honoring and giving your full

presence to the people in whichever space you're in. Right. And I'm just trying to be cautious when

I talk about this. Cause I know there's so many people that are just bought into the streaming,

their online services kind of thing. But, and, and I think it, it's got its place and I'm sure God uses

it in the kingdom and all of that, but you know, we don't do it because we're exactly what you just said.

Like it's a very intimate thing that's happening in an online worship community. And there's a very

intimate thing that's happening in an onsite community that, you know, honoring that and being

present with the people, I think is what the Lord calls us to do. You know, I think the first guy that

I heard say that was Erwin McManus. So let me give, give him credit. If you, if you respect your,

your, uh, your live experience so much, don't broadcast, don't cheapen it by broadcasting it

online. Um, and that's, I mean, that, that's, that's powerful. And so, but you got to do something

else that that's not an excuse to become a Luddite and like just ignore all of technology. Nobody's

saying that it was funny. I was actually, I was writing, I was, I'm just finishing. I'll say this

on the podcast. It's publishing soon. I was just wrapping up a book that I'm writing for leadership

network on virtual reality. And, um, if you ever read my writing, especially through leadership

network, I'm very sarcastic and, uh, kind of like jaded in, in, in, and I'm constantly asking them

if it's too much and they love it. And it seems like, you know, readers like it. And, uh, and so

actually, and you'll appreciate this hope, Michael, I was, I was trying to talk about, um, like

technology phobic people. And I didn't want to use the Luddite reference. Cause I, that was like too much.

And so I, I totally like was writing this thing based on Quakers and I was taking a shot at Quakers

and then I was like, but wait, are Quakers the ones that don't like technology? And I actually Googled

it and Quakers are fine with technology. So I don't, I, then I couldn't really find the group and I felt

bad for like mocking people in, in that space that were technology phobic. And so I ended up scratching

the whole chapter. But, um, you know, the, the, the heart of this is, is that I think there's,

you know, I'm learning here. There's an opportunity to, to support, um, rural with a different mindset.

And I think there's, you know, just given the percentages of people, um, in America that are

in rural environments and small church environments, there's listeners, there's audience out there.

Um, you know, what I'm hearing is, you know, maybe they've been stuck in the way that it is,

or, or maybe they've got leaders that are stuck, um, in the way that it is. Let's, let's get back to

that as, as we're landing the plane here. Somebody's wanting to do something different in a rural

environment. Maybe it's, it's, chances are it's a volunteer. It's not a staff person. Staff's not

buying it. Staff doesn't have vision for this. Senior pastor, leadership decision maker, whoever,

not, not interested, elder board. Um, what advice would you give them?

Oh, you're going to get me in trouble here, but, uh, I would, I love doing that by the way.

I would say, you know, just do it. Nobody can stop you from planting online churches. Right.

And it's always great when we have the support of, of an inherited congregation and, you know,

they, we, it would be ideal if it could happen that way. But if you can get a small team of people

together who have a passion for this, that want to build community and share the gospel and,

and, um, um, digitality, you know, nobody can really stop you, you know, and I'm, you know,

in a denomination that's very institutional and very, all of that, but, um, lay people are doing

this, you know, it releases the priesthood of all believers. Like, uh, a tech device makes every

single person a missionary. Um, and, and we can use that to the glory of God in, in powerful ways.

And when the system is, you know, against that or whatever, or trying to dampen that,

you just have to be faithful to what God's calling you to do and, and press forward.

Michael Beck, uh, the Fresh Expressions of Rural Church. When's that, when's that actually

publishing? When's that coming out?

Like next week, I think like August 15th. Yeah.

Boom. Right around the corner. So it will, by the time the streets, it will be out. Um, my,

my birthday is August 18th. So if anybody wants to, no, I've, I've, I'm August 13th.

When's your birthday?

August 13th.

13th. No kidding. Is when did Elvis die? Was it the 15th or the 13th? Do you know?

I don't know.

For some reason that has always stuck in my head that my birthday is right around

because Elvis died 77 and I was born 77. That makes me 45. How old are you? How old are you

going to be?

Um, I'll be turning 42.

42. You're a kid. You have, you have, I have more gray on me than you. I like, I don't want

to call you out publicly. If you're watching on YouTube, you can obviously see that. He also

has more hair and more tattoos and, and let's, he's just a, a, a more man than I am. Um, but

that's.

And you're, you're only a couple of, I'm a couple of years behind you.

You young whippersnapper. Oh man, this, this conversation just got awkward. And, uh, and so

we're, we're, we're going to land the plane. Uh, Hey, there's a link in the show notes for

fresh expressions of rural church. Check that out. Um, Mitchell imagination. Uh, you know,

we talked about that. I'll throw that. That is that, is that on Amazon or is that an ebook?

The, the missional imagination book.

Yeah. So I didn't write a book on that. I just use that term and everything that I do.

And I talk about it.

I thought you wrote a book on it.

Uh, I mean, I've weaved it into every, every, all my eight books in some way, but not that

title. Yeah.

Probably on my writing schedule. I don't have freedom until 2025, but I may actually write that

one. I'm really intrigued by that. But Hey, listen, if, if you're not familiar with,

with Michael Beck, check them out on YouTube or on, um, on Amazon. We'll put all the links

in the show notes, uh, plus to his website, solid stuff. And if you're looking at fresh

expressions, really unique expressions of church, Michael's one of the strongest voices, uh, here

in America in that. And so check it out, Michael, thanks for doing this. Thanks for being on.

And, um, uh, listen, we'll, we'll, we will certainly see again. So for, for Michael, this

is Jeff with the church, digital digital church network, you know, a whole bunch of other stuff.

Thanks for jumping on the podcast and, uh, we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all

have a good day.