EP235: Christ-Centered Recovery with Nate Graybill

Most people, when they hear the word recovery, they think of the billboard sins, you know,

chemical addiction, you know, strong sexual addiction, and it certainly does include,

you know, those things. I think here at Watermark, we've tried to reclaim that a little bit. I mean,

the actual definition of recovery is that you're regaining something that was lost or taken away.

You know, it's a restoration or return to health or return to a former and better state. And so

the reality is, as Christians, we're all being recovered.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into

all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant,

The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, you got the Church Digital Podcast here. Once again, it is a pleasure to be here with you

today. My name is Jeff Reed, founder of the Church Digital, co-founder of Digital Church Network.

And I just get to have so much fun with so many organizations, challenging digital and metaverse

ministry. And so, hey, it's great to be with you again here today. Hey, quick intro,

because we're going to head right into the episode itself. Maybe two months ago, actually,

it was the week of my birthday. So mid-August, I did an interview, a roundtable conversation

with Nathan Graybill out of Watermark Church in Dallas, Texas. You see, Nathan is the director

of Regeneration. It's Watermark's Christ-centered recovery material. Now, you may not really have

an awareness of what Christ-centered recovery material is. Most people know Celebrate Recovery,

which is based out of Saddleback. That's probably the largest Christ-centered recovery or the most

well-known Christ-centered recovery. But there's many different organizations that do stuff like that

around the country. And Nate's been doing a great job out of Watermark Church championing

their material and reaching people literally around the world with it. Now, the reason I'm bringing in

this conversation is I believe that we as pastors, as planters, as practitioners, full-time seminary

trained, bivocational volunteer, wherever you are on the map, I don't know that we're really trained

how to handle the low, dark places that often happen within virtual reality or even digital ministry.

In itself, these mediums, these communities, digital and virtual, they're addictive. And so we are asking

volunteers, we're asking non-seminary trained people, shoot, even I think our seminary trained people

don't know how to handle a severe case of depression or a suicidal person in digital or in virtual reality

space. And so these are the questions that I'm asking and really start to explore how to get

Christ-centered recovery active in digital and in virtual reality space. Many of these organizations

are hesitant to go into these areas because there's so much perceived value in physical that they don't want

to address some of the challenges that happen in digital space. But even beyond this, I think that we,

Digital Church Network, we have a responsibility to get more ammunition for our soldiers that are on the

battlefield. We need to get Christ-centered recovery in there. We need to get more training and equipping

training and understanding on how to handle suicidal depression and a lot of the low dark that happens in

digital and metaverse space. And thirdly, I think that we need to get better uniforms. We need to get

better equipment. We need to get better protection for ourselves. There's been, in recent months,

I've had several situations where people that are near and dear to me, digital and metaverse pastors,

have come across what's called second-hand trauma. Jeff, to be honest with you, I just, I got into a dark

place because I was surrounded by dark and I didn't have a community to lean on. I was working in

isolation. I didn't know where to turn. And that's why I did what I did. Just transparently, I've heard

it twice this year, in 2022, where people have gotten lured into a dark environment and they were unable to

get themselves out individually. And so we need better ammunition. We need better equipping. We need

better protection. We need better armor. Never mind that whole uniform. We need better armor

for this. And that's the goal here. We're starting the conversation with this round table right here.

So I'm going to present myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. We've got

Nate Graybill and some of his team coming in from Regeneration from Watermark Church

in a conversation that I'm calling Christ-Centered Recovery in Digital and Metaverse Spaces. Okay,

everybody. Here you go. Awesome. Hey, everybody. Listen, I am excited about this round table tonight. I

have been wanting to do this round table, to have this conversation for months. And so looking forward

to starting this conversation tonight and then heading into more conversations centered around this.

Now we're talking specifically about Christ-Centered Recovery in digital and in Metaverse Spaces. Metaverse

primarily being virtual reality. And so at least virtual reality is the primary for today. I don't

want to go down that rabbit hole. That's a whole other thing. But the heart of this is that there's,

I believe there's an incredible opportunity to reach different people in digital Metaverse. And there's,

to be honest, when we talk about recovery, and I even want to explore this with the team here,

when we talk about recovery, there's a hesitancy to do this in digital and in like virtual reality.

Like I've seen people's heads explode, just merely at the concept of doing it. And so honestly, I sought

just advice from people in this space, trying to figure out what it would look like and to try to

maybe find somebody that was willing to experiment, to explore, and maybe help us not run away from the

problem, but come up with the solution towards addressing the need for recovery in digital spaces, in social

media, in digital churches, and digital ministries. And so fortunately, quickly, I got connected to

Nate Graybill, who's the Director of Regeneration for Watermark Church. So, hey, Nate, thanks for

coming on here with this roundtable. Hey, it's a privilege to be here, Jeff. I appreciate your

interest in this. And certainly recovery is needed everywhere, especially within the church. And,

you know, digital just gives us an opportunity, you know, to really help people wherever they're

at. And there's a lot of folks that will never walk through a church door, you know, that would

certainly be willing to connect with you online. And so, want to meet people where they're at.

Definitely. And that's, I mean, really, when we talk about digital ministry, you know, and especially

post-COVID, now as churches, they're, hey, let's get back to the building, let's get back to the

building. The reason you do digital ministry, the reason that we're trying to launch and plant digital

churches are not to reach the people that the buildings are reaching. It's to reach a different

type of person, different people than the buildings are reaching. And we're seeing tons of those stories.

Uh, but what's interesting is that, you know, um, Nate and, uh, yeah, I'll let you introduce your

team in a second, but like these devices in themselves are addictive. I'm holding up. If

you're listening on a podcast, I'm holding up my iPhone, like it's addictive. Virtual reality is an

addictive source into itself. And so there's the, a little nuance here of, uh, I'm doing recovery,

uh, in a source itself that can be addictive. And what are those, those tensions and,

and what are the issues that you have to do? And so I'm glad that you're the smart one in this

conversation and have all the answers already figured out for us. Like that's the, I'm just

here to sit back and listen to the, uh, the Nate Graybill wisdom show. So it's going to be a great

hour talking with you. It'll be a short hour. So we're still learning too. Awesome. So,

Hey, why don't you introduce your team that you brought in and some of these voices that,

that are going to help us as we walk down this journey? Yeah. Well, I brought in Jim Foley,

Jim Foley was at Watermark for two decades, you know, almost, and, you know, has been involved

with the recovery ministry here for almost as long as he's been at the church. He's really the one that

pushed me to do some virtual groups years ago. Um, and it really ran the first test groups and pilot

groups, and then even launched, you know, um, our ministry in Poland with regeneration through virtual

coaching with the crew, with the crew staff that's in Poland over there. And it's now spread into Eastern

Europe. And so Jim's joined us. Um, and then I asked Jenny Beam to join us as well. Jenny, uh, ran the

first female pilot virtual group here for regeneration at Watermark. She's also, um, the author of our

regeneration for students ministry. And, um, um, and she's been involved in recovery here at Watermark

since she looked like she was 16. I think you were 18 when you first came. And, uh, that was many,

many years ago, by the way. Um, not too many though. Uh, she's still pretty young. So I brought both of

them in because they've actually led, uh, groups in the virtual world all the way through and seen

the results of that. Um, I've just kind of been the coach and the designer and the thinker behind

some of it. And so I'm really grateful to have them here. Awesome. So definitely excited about the,

the conversation, Jenny, Jim, thanks for coming in and being a part of this, but let me even ask up

front here. Uh, you know, some people listening, they may not have a clear picture of what recovery

is, who needs it, what's involved in that. So, you know, help us lay a foundation here for the

conversation. What is recovery and why should my church care? Yeah. Well, most people, when they

hear the word recovery, they think of the billboard sins, you know, chemical addiction, you know,

strong sexual addiction. And it certainly does include, you know, those things. I think here at

Watermark, we've tried to reclaim that a little bit. I mean, the actual definition of recovery is that

you're regaining something that was lost or taken away. You know, it's a restoration or return to

health, um, or return to a former and better state. And so the reality is as Christians, we're all being

recovered. You know, Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost and God made us in his image and he made

us for his glory. And so, um, he's recovering us, you know, through Christ and the work of the Holy

Spirit, not only for salvation, but, you know, through sanctification to be image bearers again.

And so we've broadened that out at Watermark where really for us, recovery means anything that is

standing in the way of an intimate relationship with God and his glory in your life. And so for

us, you know, regeneration, not only re reaches those people that are wrestling with traditional

quote unquote recovery issues, but really anything that someone's struggling with, 60% of our staff

have been through it. We deal with pride, you know, uh, codependency, depression, anything that is

getting in the way of your relationship with God or your relationships with others. Um, and recovery in

general is a lifelong process. Um, um, and so part of the reason why people associate that word recovery

so much with it is because of the success of AA and, um, and you know, AA really was born out. Most

people don't know this, but AA was born out of a Christian group called the Oxford group working

through scripture and they, it was built on biblical principles. And so the steps, the 12 steps themselves

are biblical principles that actually outline the process of spiritual sanctification really for

anyone. So it can work on anything that is getting in the way of your spiritual growth and formation.

And so for us, you know, we reach really the entire church in our recovery ministry is a good cross

section of the culture. That's great. Now regeneration is, is a little different. There's some nuances

between regeneration, I'm assuming. And, you know, I mean, celebrate recovery is the one that

comes to mind as, as, as Christ-centered recovery. And I'm sure, I'm sure there are others. What,

what kind of separates regeneration from, uh, some of the other, uh, Christ-centered recovery

options that are out there? What makes you guys different? Well, uh, let me, let me back up

briefly on this. So my story, I was the first addict to come to Watermark and tell my story.

So back in 2000, it's not, not 22 years ago, I came to the church with a, with a pornography

addiction struggle. And, um, and at the time, you know, I asked for, um, help other people to counsel

me and really our church, because we believe so much in this, in the power of a group of believers

working through scripture. We don't generally refer away from the church right away. And they referred

me to a group of other believers and we just started working through scripture. And, uh, and without

knowing it, I did the steps of recovery literally on my couch, you know, for nine months. And, um,

and then we were part of the launch here of celebrate recovery at Watermark after I got well.

And so, um, you know, before we talk about other ministries, I, you know, celebrate recovery had a

big impact on my life. Um, you know, they really did a lot for bringing recovery back into the church.

Um, but, um, but what happened here is as, as, as Watermark started to use celebrate recovery

as a primary means of pastoral care, it grew, um, to, I think, to the point where the really

the largest in the country, we're running around 700 a week, uh, during that time. And then we started to

do some, um, some studies of our participants. And the great thing about celebrate recovery was

people were experiencing an authentic community, which is what they want, just this real authentic

bonding where they could be open and share openly. Then they were experiencing recovery from their

addictions, which was great. But part of the problem with, with that was that our mission at Watermark

was to make fully devoted followers of Christ. And so when we, when we started to measure spiritual formation,

um, um, measures, like, are they growing in their knowledge and use of scripture?

Are they, are they joining a church? Do they understand their identity in Christ?

Do they understand their gifts set? Do they know how to share the gospel?

You know, um, or do they know how to deploy, you know, the gifts that they've been given to others?

You know, are they carrying out the great commission? You know, um, we, we really realized that

we didn't have a full discipleship ministry. And one of the things that I had learned in my time

in celebrate recovery was that those 12 steps really do outline the biblical sanctification process.

For believers. And so for us, in order to open up to the church and make it relevant for everyone and

to move past these hurdles of what people have in their mind for recovery, we shifted some things

pretty substantially. One, we took all of the steps back to the biblical roots. We created daily content,

um, because in recovery circles, often, you know, people think about going to meetings. Well,

you know, um, really the opportunity that you have with recovery, uh, real recovery happens in a daily

encounter with Christ. So we created daily content. Um, we focused on spiritual formation through those

12 steps. Um, and we want a daily discipleship happening outside of the group. So really our content

not only has daily scripture, um, daily prayer, um, daily to do actions. Um, the other thing is that

it's group based. We believe in the power of the group moving through recovery together. And then we

don't do any specific issue specific groups. So we don't have any groups that are specifically for

alcohol or sexual addiction or, you know, mental health issues. We mix those groups. We split by

gender, but we mix those groups ultimately because it helps people get past trying to control that

issue first and gets them down to the idolatry issues that are driving some of those, some of those

behaviors. And often people come in and they're struggling with more than one issue. And so when

you're in a mixed issue group, you move past behavior management really quick. And you realize

that you really have some of the same core struggles as people that have, um, different, uh,

proclivities and how that plays out in their own lives. And so, um, so those are some of the

differences. We do group-based versus one-on-one. We have daily discipleship. We do spiritual formation

through the steps. The goal is not sobriety. The goal is full devotion to Christ. So we want

to address all areas of your life. Sobriety comes in the middle of that journey. Um, and then one

thing that's been really useful as we've developed this, um, this open group content in the first six

weeks of recovery, you know, people can come and go. There's really no commitment that they have to

make. They don't have to work on anything. They can just show up to meetings, but, um, so it allows

people to enter in as they're ready and to get in deeper, but they're not allowed to go into a

closed group to really work through the steps until they've completed six weeks of content,

shown consistency of attendance, you know, and raise their hand and said, I'm ready to go.

And that does a couple of things. It builds trust. It allows us to meet people where they're at,

move slowly with them, you know, for them to acclimate at their own pace, but then also

demonstrate that they are in fully before we really put them with other people that are ready to work on

their content daily. So that daily content is really important.

Now, you know, I, I love what I'm hearing with Nate, like the holistic, um, you know what we'll

address sobriety, but it's at the middle of this thing. We got to do some free work. We're going to

do some work afterwards. It's not sobriety. It's, it's wholly devoted in understanding maybe some of

the disciple making bigger picture conversations. I love that. Um, how does, how does all of this,

what we're talking about? Like I'm hearing content, I'm hearing multiple groups. I'm hearing

kind of conversations. Um, does this work digitally? Like he, even Bob was asking a question. Bob's in,

in the audience here, uh, listening and Bob's like, Hey, like if we're doing this in the metaverse,

does that take away from, from a local expression, from a, a local connection with, with a local church?

Um, what by opening it up to digital, it's a much broader reach, which is awesome, but you use that

local feel. How much of the local feel is, is really important as you're addressing, uh, you know,

some of these, uh, issues within recovery. I would say, um, uh, for a large percentage of the folks that

were doing online are typically not the people that would first go to the church for recovery. Um,

so they might seek something else, uh, before they actually got a support church, uh, support group

through the church. Uh, one of the things that we did with regeneration was we tried to, uh, encapsulate

the in-person program online. So we did encourage the participants to have a mentor through a local

church. So we did kind of help bring it back to the church, which was very helpful and very successful.

Yeah. So there's a couple of support mechanisms for a participant when they're in a group.

The first is they have some leaders and we do some accountability within the group themselves,

but as people move into that closed group, they're required to find a local mentor and we have online

mentor training. And so, uh, we, we can help them with that, find a local mentor where they're at. Um,

but that keeps them in a local relationships as well, and hopefully moves them into a relationship

within the church where they're, where they're locally present as they participate online.

And I think in some of our test groups, we were running about 50, 50 in terms of percentage of

watermark members versus people that were on the outside with our, with our test groups.

And so remember that it doesn't just serve people that don't have recovery where they're at,

where they're trying to get in, but it also serves people that can't make it to your ministry night

or that have logistical issues. They might be traveling for work on a consistent basis. They

might be college students that, you know, leave for the summer and come back. So the, the digital world

actually, you know, solves a lot of logistical problems for people that can't be physically present,

even shut-ins people that, you know, aren't healthy enough to even show up, you know, on your ministry

night. It gives them access to the church and some of the people that are there.

Yeah. You're, I mean, you're describing the different types of people that, that we see

are connecting via digital and virtual reality and metaverse. And so those are, those are some great

examples. Jim, I got, I got a follow-up for you. Like I'm understanding you helped launch, I guess,

through crew, you were doing virtual coaching to, uh, another continent, uh, quite literally over

in Poland and helped coach and launch recovery in, in Poland. I'm just curious, um, the contextualization

of, of recovery is, uh, uh, you know, recovery in America, i.e. Dallas, Texas, is that different

than another state or country? Is it different in digital? Is it different in Poland? Like,

what are some of these variances and differences, or is it consistent, the same framework all the

way through, regardless of your context? Yeah, I would say that's a great question. And I think,

um, you know, sin struggle, sin struggle, whether you're in the United States or Poland. And so we

all have issues that we wrestle with, that we're trying to overcome. Uh, there are some cultural

differences in, um, not necessarily Poland, but a couple of the other countries that we looked at.

Um, but the, the base foundation is still the same across the different platforms. Uh, so it was,

it was really interesting working with the crew team. These guys are, you know, professed Christians

for a long time and, uh, they're out there, uh, spreading the word and spreading the gospel, but

they still have struggles too. And it was great for us to, uh, come in and support them and guide

them. And, uh, I think they've launched about five groups in the last couple of years. So it's really encouraging.

Interesting. Taking it in, in the digital space. Well, let me ask contextually, uh, the work that

you've done digital, are they, uh, connected to your church or to the church physically? Are they

people that are not connected to the church at all? And, and it's, it's very, uh, different and broad.

Like when we say, and you've been saying virtual, um, uh, virtual in our context is virtual reality.

That's not what you mean. You mean connecting via digital tools, like zoom, things like that.

So when we're talking about a digital audience, traditionally, whether through watermark church

or some of your other churches that you're resourcing, what types of, of connection do

these people have with the local church? Well, ours was really interesting because I'd say we had

about 50, 50, um, girls who were here from watermark and people who know from another state or even another

country. We had one really sweet girl from Honduras who was in our group and faithfully showed up every

single week. And, um, it was just very, uh, interesting. Also the, like the women who were from watermark,

it was not, uh, they would not have been able to go to an in-person group. It wasn't like this was

poaching them. Um, you know, like one of them was a single mom who had kids who couldn't be up late

in childcare. Um, and so, you know, she was able to do this after her kids were in bed, um, things like

that. So I never really felt like we were taking away people who would have been otherwise engaging in

person. It always felt like we were giving them the opportunity where they would not have had one.

Um, and it was interesting too. One of ours was local and then ended up, uh, you know,

she was working through a divorce and she ended up reconciling with her husband. And so she moved

out of state to, to get back with him and she was able to continue in our group. You know, she didn't

have, she didn't have to pick between the two. It was really sweet. That's great. Um, Jenny,

just even a follow-up on this, like, uh, how, how is your group still happening digital? Um,

you know, talk to me a little bit, what surprised you? Um, like what, what was, were you, did you

have familiarity with it? I mean, it sounded like you were involved with recovery, uh, from an earlier

age. So like, what was the thing by doing a digital instead of physical that caught you off guard?

Like, talk to me a little bit, maybe about the two of these together.

I had no idea what I was getting into. Um, very familiar with recovery. Don't know a whole lot

about tech technology. So many panicked phone calls to Jim. We can't get this to work help. Um,

but I was actually really surprised by, I mean, you think digital, you don't think, um, personal

connection. I did not expect to find the same intimacy and vulnerability in the groups. Um, and I was

very surprised to find that it felt just as it took more intentionality. It took a lot more,

um, thoughtfulness to make it happen, but we had the same, if not even greater, um, participation,

commitment, everybody was a hundred percent committed and they were very, very vulnerable,

very real. That surprised me. Um, troubleshooting. Yeah. As you may hear my internet connection is,

is always a little iffy. Um, but it never stood in the way of God's work. That was really surprising

to me. I thought something's going to crash. Something's going to take it all down. And no

matter what, uh, somehow God always worked through it.

Amen. You know, a lot of things that we were fearing is the, the being in meta world. Are,

are we going to not have that intimacy with our, uh, with our participants? And I would say that,

um, uh, I would say that the intimacy was there as much so as in person. And I would say that the

people opened up quicker online than they actually did when they were in person, which was really

astonishing to us. And then we also saw that, uh, once the folks started in a group, a higher

percentage of them stayed in the group and completed, uh, versus in person. So there's a lot of

interesting things that we learned. Uh, a funny story that I like to share is you have to be careful

about the folks in the group. We had a group of guys that were in there. They'd gotten home from

work. They're all over the country. You know, we're sitting here in recovery and one of the guys

picks up a glass of wine and he kind of swirls around and take, takes a drink in front of the

whole crew. We're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not good. So we, uh, we had to put some guidelines up,

but otherwise, uh, the communication and the process was just tremendous.

And it's great. Nate, you want to say something?

Yeah. I think a couple of things that I really discovered is that just folks in the group,

especially if they've got good leaders, figure out, you know, the relational connection.

Like that, this is actually one of the big criticisms and hesitancies of the church is,

Hey, it's not real. It's not real relationships. You're only seeing people,

you know, for a limited time, who knows if they're hiding. Well, um, and, and I think,

you know, especially the women led on this issue, Jenny's group, like they had hand signals that

they would do for clapping with people. You know, some groups, they opened up 30 minutes before and

stayed 30 minutes later. Well, I came into a commencement one night, uh, right on time.

And their women were all in tears already online because they had been sharing for 30 minutes

beforehand. You know, they would, they sometimes when they, they had, they would open up the zoom

accounts on off times, just to work on inventory, their book work, and they'd all come in and do it

together or they'd watch videos together. Sometimes they all sat down and had meals together online.

And so you figure out the relational component and you, and, and, and the other thing about

recovery is a really difficult, hard journey. And so as people are going through all this emotional

and shared experience, remember they have different proclivities, but they're working through the same

biblical principles and they're having all this, they're learning from each other's recovery as

they go. It bonds them deeply, maybe in ways that they don't bond with people in their own church

physically, because they're going through a shared experience that's really powerful and

transformational. And so that creates this social connection. It created so much in Jenny's group

that a couple of people would say, Hey, I'm going to come into Dallas, you know, on this date. And all

the women would say, well, I'll fly in. And they had these reunions, you know, from people coming

around the country when people just were flying through town. So I think that they, you know, this will

happen if a leader's intentional and we're learning, this is some of the first learnings in these groups

that you can really make these connections happen. Jim, I'm blown away. Like, and Jenny, I want to come

back and ask some questions. Like it just, there's, there's been so much revealed in the past five

minutes. So thank you for that. Um, Jim, let me ask this real quick. You're telling me that a larger

percentage of people will complete this process digitally than will in a, in a physical environment.

It is, I did hear you say that, right?

Based on, uh, we launched five groups last, last year and based on those five groups, we had a higher

percentage rate of those completing a region is a nine month program. So it's not short and sweet. It's,

it's a full program. And so we had a higher percentage of people that completed it. And we also found, uh,

in the groundwork stage, which is the first six weeks of people kind of coming and going, if they

attended three times that they would stick and stay in, uh, enroll in the group for the long-term,

which is really different than the in-person training.

Have, have you all, and this is speculation, I'm sure, because you're in testing mode. Have you all,

is, is there any reason why you think that digital is, has more legs that it, that it's easier to

tell? Like what, what, what conclusions are you drawing from that?

I would say, um, yeah, it was a complete surprise to all of us and every, uh, digital group that we've

led. It's been pretty similar. Uh, I think people are very comfortable with sharing online. It's not

odd or different or weird to them as maybe in person kind of makes it a little bit awkward.

Um, so it was really insightful to see people open up and typically it takes several weeks for people

to start opening up and sharing. We had people the first day or the second day opening up sharing,

which was really, uh, incredible. I think a couple other factors too, is that, uh, number one,

you know, sometimes they're sharing from a place where they feel comfortable already,

you know, from their home, they might have a, they might have a, um, an office where that's private

and they feel more comfortable at home. And the other, the other function is it's harder for them to miss.

Like, look, when you're in recovery every week, when you're going through it, you don't want to show

up like it's hard. And, um, and so the fact that you're reachable and you really don't have an

excuse, you know, the, we did see that the attendance was higher. And so just even attending

the group when maybe you haven't done your work or you're feeling discouraged, like that's enough

sometimes to keep seeing, keep people plugged in. And so I think, you know, you know, it's, it's a lot

more difficult to skip. You know, you can be anywhere in the world as long as you have internet access

and still join. And so I think that helped a ton as well. Interesting. Jenny, you're excited. Say,

say something here. Oh, I was going to say the same thing. Like we had one girl who had COVID and

she was just laying in her bed with her phone like this because she, you know, propped up in the front

of her face. Cause she didn't want to miss. Um, and we'd have people, you know, say my kid has a

soccer game, but I'm going to, you know, I'm going to try to catch the end in the car on the way home.

Um, and I think just the fact that like, like Nate was saying, you'll look for any excuse to miss

because there is that sin nature that doesn't want to open up. That doesn't want to let go.

And when those excuses are taken away, um, just is really cool to see how you can get traction really

fast. So Jenny and your group, you had like, I forget the locales, but there was a different country

that was, was involved in some of the, how do these people find out? Is it like circle of friends,

people inviting people, or is there a regeneration marketing campaign? Like how, how are people

getting connected, uh, to your group digitally? Yeah. Well, what's really cool is we never

advertised this, um, at all, um, which, and we still had a waiting list of over a hundred women,

like waiting to be put in a group just for word of mouth, just from a handful of people who came to us

and said, is there a way to do this digitally? And we said, well, we're kind of testing that out.

Since you asked, we'll put you on the list. Um, other than that, you know, we, we didn't go

looking for them. Yeah. So Jeff, we actually have a portal on regeneration recovery.org where people

can check to see which churches are running online. Um, but here's what I would say. One of the, one of

the, one of the challenges is that the demand for this need, for this service is so much greater than

the leader supply. And so, uh, we actually had a church in New Jersey that opened up first online

because of COVID they shut down and they grew so much. In fact, it was funny. I had a staff member

here in Dallas come by and say, Hey, my neighbor leaned over the fence and said, my mother who lives

in Denver, who had been trying to get through, go through a Bible study for years, told us that she

was, that she was going through this thing called regeneration at your church. And she's participating

from Denver at a church in New Jersey. It was just crazy. Um, but, um, but, but, but I think that,

but this church in New Jersey, they started online and they grew so much that they used up all their

leaders. And so when they launched a local ministry, nobody from their church came and, and they couldn't

even serve the local body because of the demand that was on the outside. And so they actually had to close

off some of those channels from the outside to make sure that they're caring for their local body first.

And so I think what I would say here is there's, there's an inexhaustible demand for health and

recovery. And because everybody's dealing with some type of pain or hindrance in their life. And if they

can do it and not only that, but if people can do it remotely, they're going to choose that first,

quite honestly, than being with their church. And so one of the challenges that you'll have as a

church is making sure that you're able to serve the needs of your local body first. Um, but like Jenny

said, it also provides opportunity for leaders that couldn't serve on your ministry night. Stay at home

moms now have an opportunity. People that aren't available on that night of ministry, you know,

can serve on any day or time of week that they choose and open up a group. So there's,

there's a lot of opportunity to actually, you know, let your members be deployed in new ways

where they couldn't previously.

That's, that's such an ironic story about the church in New Jersey, right? It's like

New Jersey is reaching Denver with an organization that's in Dallas through their material. And so it's

like three time zones are represented. It's like the, the, the five degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever,

like just fascinating. And in digital context, we see that, right? Like you may not be as familiar

about digital in general, but, but the collaboration opportunities and a lot of these connection

points, that's a story that we hear often in digital ministry. How many churches, uh, are, are doing

this, uh, regeneration, uh, digitally that, that, that are like, are, is this, are you guys still in

exploration mode? Is it experiment? Are you, are you like, uh, uh, establishing this thing and making

it official? Like where, what does this look like regeneration beyond watermark actually with other

churches? Yeah. So there's only a handful. So COVID forced all these churches online, you know, and,

um, and here's what I would say there were, there's a very different response through the virtual

offerings now than, than what happened during COVID because actually you took a bunch of people that

wanted to be in person and force them online. And the response wasn't great. You know, a good share

of them dropped off, but when we did the pilot groups and everybody knew what they were signing

onto in the virtual world, a lot of the people that you get to sign on are already somewhat,

you know, uh, uh, uh, adept technologically. Like they know that they're getting into it that way.

They know what to expect. And so there were less hindrances. Everybody knew what they were signing

up for. So they weren't frustrated when they weren't in person. And so, um, and so more launched that way.

Now I would say almost all the churches that went digital, you know, during COVID, when they got back

in person, they all shut down the digital, even we did for a season. And then we rerunced, launched some

pilot groups and a few of those churches have stayed open, but we've already, and, and now just a few

more of them are starting to come back online with a digital offering. So there's really only about

three or four of us right now that are offering it. And because the demand so high, we have to open

and close those intake windows because we're really supply driven right now by leaders. So we have

leaders available to go. We have a wait list of, you know, a hundred people ready to join.

Yeah. And when, when Jenny mentioned that, that kind of blew me away too. Like there,

there's a waiting list of a hundred women, uh, to be part of, of a regeneration group in,

in digital space. Like I'm, I'm curious, I would love to nuance this a little bit. Are they

wanting the anonymity, uh, in the isolation and the privacy of doing it on digital environments?

So like they're near physical and they're wanting to like, what's the, if, if you were to, uh, persona,

if you were to generalize who these people are, like what's motivating these 100 women to seek

out recovery in a digital environment? I think for a lot of them, it's kids. Childcare is tricky. Um,

if your kids have school the next day, you might not want them to be up till nine, nine 30,

depending on how far away you live, maybe 10. Um, a lot of people in my group in particular,

you know, live about 45 plus minutes away from the church. So driving in rush hour, um, um, you know,

to get there from work, it's super stressful. And then it's really late by the time they get home.

Um, so even local, when you live in a really big state, you can be local and it can still be

a drag to get there. I don't think anybody was trying to hide. Um, it was usually pretty easy.

Like we had one or two, uh, people who just, you know, were evading and it was very easy to pick

up on. It wasn't like the, the screen made a difference. It was, it was the same that you would

have had in real life. No, she's not answering my questions. She's not really, you know, saying

anything concrete. She's basic, you know, um, it wasn't, it, I didn't get the sense at all that

it facilitated any hiding. Um, so here at Watermark, like we actually, that are participants. If they can

show up on our ministry night, we really encourage, they have to prove to us that they really can't make

it that night before we let them in. So almost none of our groups were people that could have just

chosen to come on our ministry night here. You know, they have, they have legitimate reasons,

you know, and, and, um, you know, people come to recovery because they're hurting,

but I mean, they, they want to get well and that's what drives them to wait. And actually our list is

high. We've got a little waiting. We literally had our, had our window open for one month and we've

had a waiting list of 200, you know, waiting for groups to launch over the last six months.

And so they're, they're just, it doesn't exist where they're at. They can't make it for whatever

reason. And folks are hurting. I, there are some people that try to hide in recovery that are being

forced to come to recovery. Um, so regeneration is a little bit different. And so a lot of times people

go through recovery because they're court ordered, like they've been arrested. They've got to go through

a 12 step program. They want to get into a 12 step program and get through. If people are just coming

to check off a court ordered box here, or they're being forced to come to recovery, they're not going

to come to regeneration. And part of the reason for that is that we do daily content. And most people

that just want to check off a box when it becomes to doing daily content, they don't want to do that.

They'll rather just go to a meeting and show up for five minutes and get their court order checklist

checked off. But regeneration, that's that out of the system. You know, if people aren't ready to work

on something every day, you know, it kind of, it kind of purges that. So other ministries may not

have that, but for us, you know, if you really want to get into a group, you've got to demonstrate

that you're willing to be present and to do the work. Fascinating. So part of this, obviously we've

been talking digital and I've got non-technological people in here. So I'm going to back up and be very

kind of elementary with, with my language. Digital comprises of like web 2.0, which is like social

media, which is digital phones, which is zoom and metaverse virtual reality. We're talking headsets

and goggles and avatars and like this completely different realm. And eventually it'll all come

together into this big giant puddle, but that's a conversation for another day. And so we're, we're

doing this in digital. You're experimenting with the idea. You've got four or five churches that,

that are doing this in digital space. You know, part of this, and actually Nate, the conversation you

and I first had months ago was, was not, yeah. I mean, digital was part of it and it's, it's one of

the problems, but really like I work with churches in virtual reality and in the metaverse. And there's

this huge need, um, in, in these spaces and there's nothing like I cannot find anyone recovery wise that is

doing anything in this space. Meanwhile, I've got a lineup of pastors that are saying, I want recovery.

I want recovery. My church needs recovery. I got people that want to do recovery in virtual reality.

And there, there aren't, there aren't to date. I don't know of anyone that's actually, you know what?

I know of one church that's writing their own material, uh, up down here in Fort Lauderdale,

but to my knowledge, that's the first, uh, recovery initiative that's happening in, in virtual

reality. And so, you know, in virtual reality, we're, we're talking about, um, very addictive,

uh, environments and behaviors there. There's, uh, virtual reality bars, there's promoting of

alcoholism, there's promoting of drug use, uh, pornography. Uh, there are virtual reality strip

clubs where things like this are happening. There are private rooms in the back, uh, that,

you know, you don't talk about it's been estimated to me. One of these virtual reality worlds is called

VR chat. 40 to 50% of people allegedly in VR chat are having virtual sex at any time. I've actually

had a conversation with a girl, uh, who broke down in tears because she was raped as an avatar in VR

chat. We can totally unpack what actually that means. Uh, but years later, this girl is still carrying

emotional and spiritual scars as a result of what happened in virtual reality. Uh, and so the need

for recovery in this space is, is incredible. I got to imagine though, because nobody's going near

this space, there's obstacles and there's, there's challenges going in. Uh, you know, Nate, I know you

and I have had some of, some of these conversations start to maybe unpack here really, as we're moving

away from digital, looking at more virtual reality, looking at more metaverse. What, what are some of

these obstacles and challenges that we need to figure out how to overcome? I don't know that we've

got the answers today, but I would at least love to know what the, what the questions are that we need

to get answered. Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned one of them. Like I told you at the beginning, look,

my, my addiction, my addiction was sexual, right? And so there's a reason why I'm not on social media.

You know, there's a reason why I don't live in those worlds a ton because, you know, they could

easily be a stumbling block for me. So I think using wisdom with your leaders on who can enter

into certain places and what I've learned, you know, through the participation in this group that

we're in is that not all, uh, not all worlds are the same, right? There are some that, that may not

be the right place for specific people. There are others that are, that might be a better,

a better spot to do this. So, um, I, I think what I would say is everybody, you know, from what I've

understood is that people in the metaverse are looking for shared experiences, right? They're

looking for social connection, they're intelligent, you know, uh, and, and those are healthy and

unhealthy reasons, right? They're, they're coming in for, um, but you've all, I've also heard that

they're hurting and, you know, um, if you can meet somebody with a story of life change,

that's on the street, just sharing your own story of transformation. I've also understood

that they're very authentic there and they're willing to talk in, and maybe the metaverse

provides a level of anonymity that makes them feel more comfortable and vulnerable with even

sharing. And the thought of having a living room where you can have a story of life change

and people can come sit around the couch, hear a story of life change. And you've got this

acclimation process where people can show up or not show up if they don't want to, but when they're

ready, they move forward after they've demonstrated, they're ready to move forward. I actually think

the metaverse could be a wonderful place for this. You know, if you've got a church or a house that

you built there or some environment, or even just sharing your own story on the street, like people

resonate with the story of someone that's gone through a painful experience that God has healed

in recovery and, and they want, they want that experience themselves. And so when you can meet

someone at their point of pain, there's an interest and a trust that's built where they'll listen.

And, you know, um, and if you've got a process to move them slowly along that path with others that are

on the same path, you have exactly what they're looking for, which is a shared experience, you know,

some type of life connection, hopefully healing. If they're sick, I actually think it could be a

really good, really good platform challenges. I mean, I've not been in the metaverse. I, you know,

I don't know about wearing goggles for, you know, for, for an hour. Um, you know, I,

I'm just not used to it. And so maybe it's not a big challenge for other people, but I'll tell you

what, if you've got a couple of churches out there that are operating already, I actually think that

the tool would work wonderful in this environment, you know, given the circumstances, we've got

everything digitally already. And because it moves through just where people are ready, that's the

nature of the steps. You know, you kind of meet people where they're at, show them where the next

step is, and there's on-ramps and there's safety nets built in so that if people aren't ready,

there's an off-ramp for them. And when they are ready, they can take the next step.

Wearing the headset for an hour, it can be nauseating and maybe your battery doesn't last that full hour,

which is why you can get the extra external battery to hook, hook up to it. But, um, I've heard from

a number of different Christ-centered organizations, uh, Christ-centered recovery organizations.

Jeff, we don't know who these people are. Um, they're hiding behind their avatar. They're not

embracing the identity of, of who they are. They could be catfishing us. They could be faking us.

They can be doing all sorts of different things. And we, we don't know it. Uh, and, and, and to be

honest, like that's, that's challenging to, to me, my understanding and my operation in virtual reality.

Oh my gosh. And we alluded to it, Jenny, on your side, even in digital, like the avatar not being

in the same screen, that's not a weakness. That's a strength. I can get people telling me stuff at the

drop of a hat in virtual reality because I'm not in the same room judging them. I don't even know what

their name is. And instead of it being a weakness, lean into that and utilize it as a, as a, as a

strength. So Nate, my, my question here is it, because we don't know who these people are and

there's some anonymity, like, is that a true weakness within recovery organizations? Is that a

potential strength that needs to get like understood and resolved? Can we spin it on its side like this?

What, what is, um, what is anonymity actually do in, in recovery situations like this?

Well, so a couple of things, I think there's a misnomer that you're not being catfished in person.

You know, the reality, I mean, we have, we have, we have pastors that come in from other churches

that need recovery that don't tell us who they are, you know, on the front side, people are putting

on, people come to recovery because they've put on a face for decades, you know, and we're pretending

even when we're face to face, you know, uh, one of the biggest criticism of the church today is that

it's a veneer body. Like they're not real. They're not being authentic there. And so, you know, I've

been, I've been in recovery groups with people that have said, Hey, I'm going to deal with this one

issue, but there's this whole other part of my life that I'm not going to let you touch.

And so the idea that it's somehow easier and virtual than in person, like, I don't think

that's true. I think people do it in person just as much as they would do online. And maybe,

maybe the avatar would let them be more open, you know, on the front side. And then what you,

what you find is that as time goes on and people begin to have this connection with this group,

they they'll open up more of who they are, you know, and I actually think they'll lead to

authentic relationships with the real people with a reveal more of themselves. I would hope that at

some point they would take their avatars down and meet in Dallas or wherever they meet, you know,

long-term. I actually think it would, it would provide a level of growth for them. And of course

they could hide, they could hide in person. They could hide wherever they're at. They do now,

you know? And so the idea that that happens more there than other places, I've not been in the

metaverse to measure that at all, but I'm doubtful that it's worse there than it is in person.

Consistency, please. That's interesting. I didn't, I didn't think you'd take that spin,

but I love the fact that you did. Jenny, did you have anything to contribute on that?

Yeah, I was going to say, and I've also not had the privilege of entering the metaverse yet,

but just based on my experience, trying to, I would say one big mistake is trying to take

the exact setup that you have going, you know, in real life and have a one-to-one translation

in digital or virtual. These mediums are, they're different cultures. And we figured that out really

quickly when we were trying to have, you know, at the beginning of each region meeting, we usually

sing, we have worship. And we tried playing a worship video and having people sing along with

their screens. And it was super, super awkward and nobody likes it. And we just had to realize,

okay, some things work in some formats and not in others. And I think holding loosely to the format,

but clinging tightly to the underlying principles and, you know, to Christ, probably metaverse recovery

will look a lot different. I don't know what that'll look like, but you have to be, you have to be in

it to know it. And then, you know, you know, God, you just become all things to all people.

Hey, and Jeff, here's what I, you know, the other part on hiding. One of the things that we built

into regeneration, partly because you'll find that most recovery groups within churches become an

insulated entity. They feel like it's the only safe place, you know, for them to share authentically.

The church doesn't get it. And the pastor sends people into this black hole and they never come out

and they stay there, you know, and so the people in the church say, we're not like those people.

And the people in recovery say, we're not like those people. And so for us, if you go into a

secular AA, you get an AA sponsor. With regeneration, we ask you to find a Christian who's in your life

currently that will be in your life after recovery that's in your church. And we'll train them to

mentor you. They don't have to share your same struggle. We'll train them. And so we created this

bridge of a mentor that would, that would provide this connection, this link to the church. So they're

not only known in the recovery group, they're known in the church so that when recovery is over,

there's someone, those are story, what their plan is going forward, how they're going to share life.

They there's a safe person, at least one safe person in the church. And so for us, because we've got

this mentorship function built in, even in the metaverse or virtual with regeneration, we would still

ask someone to find someone local, that's in their life currently, that will be in their life after

recovery, you know, that would fit the criteria for mentorship that we could train, so that there

would be an in person meeting with them, you know, with that mentor on a routine basis, in addition to

their group and their group support. Because we do think that that in person connection is vital to

essentially their integration into the in person church. Otherwise, your recovery group is going to

become insulated and isolated from the church. And pastors don't want that. It's unhealthy for

recovery. It's unhealthy for those groups to be, we're in recovery, because we've isolated parts of

our lives from the body of Christ, quite honestly. And so we want to create those bridges.

That's beautiful. Hey, this has been a great conversation. And I'm hoping, I'm sure it's going to be

one of many. I was talking to the group off air, like recovery, Christ-centered recovery, mental health,

empowering and equipping people to do ministry in these addictive sources of digital and virtual

reality and metaverse. Like, this is going to be the drum that I'm going to bang for the next 12 to 18

months. I had one conversation about this today with a digital pastor and dude just looked at me square

in the eyes and it was like, I need what you're talking about. And so I love this idea of exploring

it, of championing it, of helping churches get connected to this. Physical churches that are doing

digital ministry, digital churches, virtual reality churches, metaverse churches. Hey,

y'all should actually try virtual reality at some point. But even if you haven't, like support the

ministry that's happening in these spaces. So David, or excuse me, Nate, set me up here,

talk to me. Like, if somebody wants to get connected, more information on regeneration,

what are some avenues that they can connect with you and the ministry that you're doing and start to

even look at doing some of this in digital and virtual reality and metaverse space?

Well, we'd love to have some churches test us out there. If you've got digital pastors looking to

do something, we'll help them. There's really two websites that we have out there. If it's a

participant just looking for help or looking to find out more about the ministry and their locations,

where they're available, that's regenerationrecovery.org is where they go. If you're a pastor and

looking to bring it to your church, if you go to watermarkresources.com, there's a list there for

regeneration. It's specifically designed for churches to find out more about the,

about the ministry and to apply it. We actually have a whole department now that is set for

resourcing churches with our content. So we, we provide all kinds of training. We provide

coaching from retired pastors who have dedicated their lives to developing this ministry in the

retirement, you know, with other churches. We provide full support, you know, for churches that are out

there. And so if you go to watermarkresources.com and click on regeneration, we actually have a

conference coming up September 12th and 13th here in Dallas, you know, for the regeneration churches.

There'll be people flying in from all over the country, the scores of churches coming in,

where you get to actually see it in person and action, go through some training that are here.

We'd love to invite you. You can also find that on watermarkresources.com if you click on conferences,

but we'd love to help you. You know, we've got hard copies of our content. We've got digital copies of our content.

You know, we're working with Mark here, who's in the call to help even develop

an e-version of the content, you know, in the future with some supporting technology that would

help with groups, you know, just even operating, you know, digitally completely. And so we'd love to help.

We're here to help. We've got a whole team set up to help, really, the Big C Church, you know, with these ministries.

Awesome. And so check out those websites. We'll include information and links in the show notes

and description, wherever you're watching this, if you're watching it on demand, and definitely connect

to that. Virtual reality churches, hit me up or connect with them directly. But because, like,

we need to start experimenting and exploring what this looks like in virtual reality space.

I'll coach you personally.

Dude, straight from the lion's mouth. Very, very cool.

And this is going to be the beginning of an ongoing conversation centered around recovery,

centered around mental health in digital metaverse space. And so recovery was interesting. Somebody

made the comment about, you know, coming out of the church basement and trying to bring more

attention to it. And that's, I mean, honestly, that's my heart behind this as somebody that's

worked alongside as resource recovery and has seen the good that it's done. And honestly, if I did more

mental capacity to work on myself, I probably would acknowledge more of the issues of my own life

that I need to run through recovery. But at least at this point, I'm very excited to see

the difference that it's making in people's lives. And I'm excited to try to bring that to digital and

energy and even metaverse virtual reality space. So thanks very much for the time of, of, of coming

in here and being part of the conversation. And, uh, through DCN we'll, we'll obviously be doing more

of these. So you'll be, you'll be hearing through that through digital church network, um, as more of

these opportunities come up as we continue to dialogue through it. So thank you all for being

here. And, uh, and so we're going to land the plane. Y'all have a good evening.