EP240 - Jonathan Song and Churchome’s Pastor Chat

Even just the idea of church, and at least here, church in North America, the Western world, where it's so often just associated with something that we do on Sunday.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I think the heart genuinely is, for the most part, in the right place.

But again, coming out of COVID and seeing this renewed appetite for connection and something that, again, for a lot of people, we weren't able to have in the middle of that.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than TED for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant,

The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically.

Our heart?

That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize your church.

And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Hey, it's Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital, co-founder of the Digital Church Network.

And, oh, I don't know.

I've got a whole bunch of jobs.

I don't even keep track of all of them at this point.

Well, I do because I actually have to, like, work to get a paycheck.

But it's okay.

It's a lot of fun when you're helping deal with digital type things.

And I'm excited.

I'm excited about this conversation.

I've been looking.

I've been waiting for a long time to dig into this topic.

And it's taken us a while to get things scheduled and to come into it.

But I am really looking forward to digging into this church and learning more about their approach.

Because I consider this church one of the most aggressive, if not the most aggressive churches in America.

And I've talked, at least from a technological standpoint, and I've talked about this with some of their other staff.

And we've had some other people on the podcast here.

And to be honest, like, it's funny.

It's always like this meek approach.

Like, we don't consider ourselves that aggressive.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Do you have any idea compared to some others?

And, you know, I could dance around and tease what this conversation is going to be for a while.

But let's forget that.

Let's just get into it.

I'm excited to bring into the conversation Jonathan's song from Church Home in, I guess, officially Seattle as well as Los Angeles, right?

You're a multi-city church.

Is that how you consider it?

And then, of course, there's all this stuff you do digitally and online.

When you tell people where you're from, Jonathan, like, how do you describe that?

I would say you kind of hit the nail on the head of, you know, historically been, you know, Seattle and Los Angeles.

I think that's what we've been kind of known for for the most part for the last, especially with L.A. for the last few years.

But Seattle, you know, we've been a church for 30 years.

So that's as long as I've been born on this planet.

And I haven't been a part of that whole time.

But, yeah, definitely Seattle, Los Angeles.

And I'm sure we'll kind of jump into the conversation a little bit later.

But, yeah, even just a little bit of a shift as far as, you know, our model or ministry and even kind of shifting away from multi-site in a sense and becoming more, you know, decentralized.

So global church, I guess, is a way to put it.

But it's, yeah, there's a lot of nuances and stuff to it.

But just for the sake of this, we'll say Seattle and L.A. for sure.

Wow.

He just said the word decentralized church.

And I may have just trolled a little bit on the podcast because I'm really anxious to get into that conversation.

And I don't even know that I had planned to get into that part of it.

So, hey, we're going to see how this one goes.

This is going to be fun.

But listen, and I've talked about this.

We've had Mark Venti, who's on the executive team of the church.

He's been on the podcast several times.

And he's been a friend over the years.

And I've just, I've been very excited talking with him about some of the aggressive stances that your church has taken digitally.

Now, we're going to get into pastor chat.

I want to start to maybe, which is a whole other thing.

We'll get into a text-based chat, pastoring and shepherding people.

I do want to explore, like, the decentralized type of thing as much as you're comfortable with that.

But at the heart of this thing, like, four years ago was really the first time that Church Home got on my radar.

This is pre-COVID, maybe 2018, maybe 2019.

Actually, I wrote a blog talking about Judah Smith, your lead pastor.

I think he was quoted in, like, I'd have to go back and look.

But I think it was, like, Fox News or CNN.

It was, like, this guy who thinks that he says that he wants to pastor people via a mobile app.

And, like, the press went nuts.

This guy thinks he can pastor people via a mobile app.

The church world went nuts saying this idiot over here thinks he can pastor people via a mobile app.

Meanwhile, four years later, like, I got to ask, how's it going?

Are you pastoring people via a mobile app?

I got to imagine in this COVID season, you know, that idiot all of a sudden became, like, a prophet talking about, oh, my gosh.

Look at what are we seeing, what are we doing, the availability to connect with people digitally.

How's it going now coming out of COVID?

What's this looking like?

Yeah, I think, yeah, at the time when, you know, at the time even when, you know, I think that was said.

And even just the idea of, like, a church app and what we're hoping to accomplish, I wasn't even on staff at the time.

You know, I was, you know, volunteering and attending and those sorts of things.

And, yeah, very radical idea.

I think you kind of nailed it.

Almost, you know, aggressive as far as, like, technology.

You know, I think the whole idea of the app in general was, it's just a way that people can connect to, you know, of course, like, our content messages, you know, that had been happening already.

And so, but, you know, just continuing to see just a continued need.

And this is for every church as well, but just a continued need for connection and community.

And so, even the idea of, like, having a mobile app, and not like that, not that that was something so revolutionary at the time, like, you know, churches had apps and things like that.

But, you know, just taking a look at our trends in the world today and just even the practical of, you know, whether or not someone might agree with it or not.

It's just the reality, like, how much we are so dependent on technology.

And, you know, if you're like me and you look at your screen time and you're not proud of it, to be honest, you know, it's like the mini win.

You know, when you get the notification that, you know, your screen time was down 10% from last week, I'm like, yes, I'm, like, crushing it right now.

But the whole idea, I think, was just using technology as a means and leveraging technology where, again, we do so many of our everyday, you know, for fun, for even work, those sorts of things, which is so convenient.

And it's, you know, the idea of someone that just needs, like, a little, like, spark in the day, you know, maybe a cup of coffee is not doing it.

But it's like, I need to hear just, like, a quick, like, just encouragement.

I need to hear something from scripture or things like that.

And we just thought, wow, it would be cool in a sense of why not having what essentially is like having church in your pocket.

And, again, you know, for an app, it's not just created to be a platform for, like, content.

Obviously, that's a big part of it.

But, again, the hope of it is how can we leverage it to build genuine church community from that?

And so, you know, based on, like, how the app, you know, the idea of the app and people connecting to groups near them location-wise.

And this will kind of even send to probably a bigger conversation about just, you know, what we feel like God has called us as a church to do in the future.

We're just kind of thinking, how can we be a little bit more innovative and be creative and have a pioneering attitude of, you know, people are using their phone for, like, literally everything else in their lives.

And so, why not use that as a means for people that it serves to, again, the whole idea is to point people, help people connect with God and to help connect with community.

So, yeah, definitely at the time it's been over these last few years, which that's also just insane to think it's been that amount of time.

And even just the timing of it with, you know, church home, we've, you know, previously been the city church.

So, we've been, you know, we renamed the whole idea of the app and, you know, we'll jump into, like, past your time, these sorts of things where, you know, we're ready to, like, soft launch and, like, really be aggressive and promoting.

And then, lo and behold, who would have ever thought that a global pandemic would happen in our lifetime?

And it literally happened as the pandemic was starting.

And so, it's, by no means am I saying it's a blessing in disguise.

Obviously, not at all.

But just the timing was so crazy where then, now everything was forced to go digital.

You know, whether churches were prepared for it or not.

And we just, it's just, like, the timing of it above anything was just, like, so, so crazy.

And, again, to see where it is today and continuing to build off of that, we think it's been really successful.

And we just want to continue to build from that.

This is beautiful.

Now, you've just described your mobile app, but you're starting to.

And you're using some words that, you know, everybody, every church describes their mobile app.

And so, I want to drill in a little bit here.

Like, when we're talking pastoring people via a mobile app, yes, Judah's sermon may play a part in it.

But pastoring people, shepherding people via a mobile app is something that describes and it sounds far more relational.

So, I mean, you're utilizing the words building genuine church community.

And I dare say the average church mobile app in America does not really get to that place of community.

We're looking at doing things far beyond distributing the weekend service content or anything like that specifically.

So, I mean, could you maybe talk a little bit here specifically, Pastor Chat.

What does this mean?

Maybe what are some examples of how people are utilizing this to build or to engage in community?

Yeah, I think even the whole idea with things like Pastor Chat, even at the time when, you know, we've launched the app, I had been hired onto the team to help be part of the Pastor Chat team.

And again, that's literally like right when the pandemic started.

So, that was just, again, the timing was crazy.

But, you know, it's one of those things too, I think, even from, for us as pastors and leaders doing ministry, there's just so much, obviously, it's always about people, right?

Being with people, there's a lot of, you know, things that people need, you know, prayer about or just want to, you know, talk with someone.

Just have someone that maybe not necessarily is going to talk at them, but just an avenue where people can have someone that can listen.

And sometimes, you know, as much as I love, you know, the coffee meetings and, hey, let's, you know, do those sorts of things, even just from the sake of efficiency and, you know, people's time, it's, you know, as much as I'd love to have a, you know, me personally, I'd love to have, you know, half an hour coffee meetings all the time, you know, every day.

I only have so many hours in the day that I can do things.

And even for people, it's like, it's just maybe not conducive to, you know, I just, I need to talk with someone, but like trying to set up this meeting.

So even the idea of pastor chat, which it, what it is, it's a live chat platform that we've created where currently it's on our website and even on our mobile app, where it's literally like anyone can message in about almost anything that they want.

And it's, you know, it's certainly not meant to be like counseling or, you know, we're not licensed like therapists or anything, but sometimes people like, hey, I'm just like going through something like quick.

I just would love like a quick prayer said over me or even when it comes to the community aspect of, you know, however, someone came to learn about church home and hear about us, what we're doing and the wanting to get involved.

Like, hey, I live in so-and-so city.

Is there like a group that's near me where I can be around people that love God and can, you know, help build me up and encourage me, those sorts of things.

And so that's really like the whole idea of pastor chat.

It's pastor chat.

It's really to be an on-ramp for any spectrum that someone is on the faith spectrum, whether someone that has been part of church home or been part of community for years and years, or someone that's like, I don't know who God is.

Tell me more about God.

Who is this Jesus?

Can you tell me more?

I'm interested.

And so that's kind of the genesis of pastor chat.

It's a way for us as a, as a church and a ministry to be able to serve people in a different way that maybe is more just effective for them and just more conducive.

And it's also just to help even maximize how many people that we can serve.

And not the important thing is the number of people, but it's kind of just meeting people where they're at.

And, you know, for a lot of these conversations that are very pastoral in nature, it might be the person that, again, with speaking with like the coffee meeting example, they might not even be comfortable, you know, meeting someone in person and talking about these very real, you know, things that might be going on in life.

But it's way easier to be, you can be anonymous, essentially.

And, hey, I just need prayer about something that's happening in my life or just want to talk about things or I need scripture or something like that.

And so, again, we just saw this as, again, an opportunity to not only serve our, you know, our church, our community that, you know, have been around forever.

But, again, as we want to be, you know, the best at telling the story of Jesus to the world and reaching new people, it's a platform that if someone's not necessarily, again, located where we have buildings and those sorts of things, hey, they can still connect with church home.

You're just as much as part of church home than anyone else.

And so, yeah, that's really, again, what we've really, really loved about the platform.

And, again, it's a way that people can connect.

Yeah.

So you're rattling a bunch of cages right now, pastoring via a texting platform.

You're not able to see the people that you're conversing with.

You're not breathing the same air molecules.

Like, there's a lot of disruptive – I mean, I don't feel disruptive having this conversation, but it's a disruptive idea.

I totally get it.

I'm just curious.

Are the people that are engaging – like, we talked about Seattle.

We talked about Los Angeles.

If you're watching on YouTube, like, there's literally behind him, there's the two maps of Seattle and Los Angeles are in his – like, are hanging on his wall.

So those two regions are important.

You said decentralized.

Obviously, mobile – if you're in a mobile app digital, it scales and it grows very quickly.

Are you seeing – are you engaging with people primarily surrounding the physical area?

Are you seeing it grow beyond – I know we haven't really talked about decentralized yet, but what's the reach of this thing?

And who's really engaging with it?

I mean, let's even back up.

Your lead pastor, Judah, is a little bit of an influencer online.

You've got – Biebs was involved in the church, Justin Bieber, for a stretch.

He may still be.

So the church has got some spread.

Like, is that influencing who's using this?

Who's really coming in to be pastored via the app?

The first – I think the most important thing that you had said the word is reach.

And this is even, again, prior to, you know, our app or anything like that.

But even just seeing, you know, with our content, such as podcasts or YouTube or things like that, you know, we've seen that, you know, a lot of people, for whatever reason, we're listening to, you know, our sermons or things that we're doing, paying attention.

That, again, don't live in Seattle or Los Angeles where we have, you know, church buildings and those sorts of stuff.

And so – and that's kind of the amazing thing about Pastor Chat.

For me, you know, being able to have the privilege to lead the team now that helps operate it.

The reach is something that is so mind-boggling to me of, again, however someone came to hear about Church Home or messages or anything like that.

I mean, we'll get chats from people that honestly are from countries that I didn't know were countries, which is awesome.

I think, you know, it's, again, the whole point of, you know, spreading the gospel to the ends of the earth.

And that's such – what a time that we live where, again, we can upload, like, a message on YouTube.

And it's amazing to see just who's engaging with us.

And, again, as a church – and we're no different than any church.

You know, I think we all have the mission.

Like, what we do is we want to reach people for Jesus.

And so, however that comes to be, what a privilege it is to be able to, for a lot of the times, introduce someone to Jesus for the very first time.

And it's through a live chat platform.

And so, even to your kind of initial question, this is not a totally accurate number.

This is really gut feel.

I probably should have been a little more prepared for this.

But the amount of conversations that I'm getting, I would say probably about, like, 98% of them are from people that do not live in the greater Seattle or Los Angeles area.

I mean, it's happening from, I would say, almost probably every state in the country.

Again, country – yeah, every state in the United States, countries all around the world.

Again, countries that I didn't know existed, if I'm honest.

And it's just, again, such a privilege of, you know, however that reach happens, however someone interacts with church and we're heard about us.

I think it's just, like, yeah, absolutely.

Like, that's what we're called to do.

Like, we're called to reach people for Jesus.

And so, again, it's just, like, a lot of times, it's even in the middle of, like, work, you know, what we call work and all these sorts of things.

It's just so, like, incredibly just mind-blowing to, like, take a step back and just, wow, like, this is the reach that, you know, our platform has.

So, yeah, it's pretty incredible.

Okay, I'm not going to quote 98%.

Please don't quote that.

That's gut feel.

But I would love – like, I would love that number because even if it's a 90s range, like, that's incredible.

Nine out of ten people that are asking for prayer, that are asking for connection, that are asking for help, are outside of the physical reach of the church.

You know, we talk – I talk a lot digitally that digital gives us the opportunity to reach a different type of person.

That our buildings are reaching.

And right now, what you just said without realizing it is actually, like, the proof of that.

And so, that's where I – if you could give me a tighter number or a range than 90, like, I will start screaming that from the rooftops.

That's an incredible, incredible movement.

Let me ask because, I mean – all right.

So, someone out there, some purist, some Luddite, some technological hater is going to hear this and say, yeah, but Jeff, what you can do digitally, what you can do via text, it's still not as good as being in online – in physical community.

Like, these people are missing out by doing this, and yes, there may be some truth to that.

Like, I'm willing to have that conversation.

But I would love your take.

Do you feel like you lose anything from the relationship by texting via a keyboard or using your thumbs on a phone?

Like, what is the perceived loss from you, the person and the persons, leading the persons who are doing this?

No, yeah, really, really great question.

It's one that's very valid.

I think at the end of the day, there are pros and cons to both, whether, you know, for speaking from a, you know, pastoring people or just loving people, supporting people.

You know, what's more effective?

Is it, you know, the in-person element or is it the digital?

I think probably the bigger question is – or not even the question, it's why not both?

Why does it have to be either or?

Why could it not be both and?

Because, again, I think there are pros and cons to both.

You know, from the in-person standpoint, I think I'd kind of said, again, like, I love having the 30-minute meetings or such.

Like, let's get a quick coffee and let's catch up.

30 minutes, that adds up quick, one after another, you know?

And so, again, it's like there's only so many people that I'm able to – just to be with in that sense.

And even when it comes to the digital or online methods, yeah, you probably do maybe lose a little bit as far as – you know, like you and I are chatting right now.

We don't maybe necessarily see the facial expression or the body language or the tone of voice.

You know, it's very easy to read something in a text and assume this is how the person's, like, thinking as they're typing.

So maybe you lose a little bit of that when it comes to the digital.

But on the flip side as well, because it is online and you don't have to be sitting across from me to talk about things.

Maybe you don't know who I am.

It's like, oh, that's intimidating to begin with, to have a coffee meeting with someone that I don't even know.

Or, again, it could be very personal, very, like, deep, personal things.

It's just, like, not easy to talk about.

In a sense, again, they may never, ever decide to want to, like, meet in person or talk about it.

But, hey, through digital means, through – where, again, you could be anonymous if you would like to be.

You know, how many more of those conversations can we have now because we've opened that opportunity versus, again, people that are maybe a little bit more shy in nature or, again, very – just don't want to be, like, super vulnerable like that.

And so, you know, again, it comes to – yeah, again, you're going to have pros and cons.

You might lose things both ways.

And so, again, for us, it's a matter of why not be able to provide both.

And if we're going to say we want to reach people where they're at, also understanding that every person is going to be different.

And so just providing as many opportunities as possible for someone to connect whatever is most conducive for them.

What lessons, what mistakes, what challenges, what are the iterations?

Like, maybe – let me ask this.

Let's drill in.

What were some mistakes that were made early on that were corrected?

Maybe somebody out there is wanting to think about doing something like this.

Like, what's the big failure that everybody's going to hit that you can help them prevent and move beyond?

I think even prior to launching the idea of Pastor Chat and the actual platform, you know, as a team, we wanted to be, like, prepared for, you know, people are going to message us about, you know, they're going through some very real-life, hard things in life.

And it's like, how do I, one, respond and encourage someone?

But two, how can I, like, communicate that the most effectively?

Again, via text because it's so hard.

Things can get, you know, lost in translation in a sense.

And that's another thing, too, is even in that preparation, you kind of think, oh, yeah, I'm going to be able to nail this conversation.

I know someone's probably going to, you know, this, you know, thing comes up and, like, I'm well prepared.

And then you're thrown in the thick of it and it's happening live.

It's not like a test or anything.

And it's like, oh, I don't, I don't actually know anymore.

Like, I'm, like, totally frozen.

And I think a lot of it, too, for a lot of the conversation that we have are about, like, theology or even just about God.

And not that we're ever claiming to be, like, experts in theology.

But a lot of it, it's just one of, I think, the biggest mistakes is just making assumptions about people.

It's like, oh, they're messaging on our platform.

They know all about Jesus already.

They already know about, you know, the death, burial, resurrection, all these things that, you know, for those of us that have been following Jesus for a matter of time.

Almost these things that we, I don't want to say take for granted, but it's like, oh, of course, like, everyone knows that.

But then we have the mistake of, you know, someone's messaging about, hey, tell me more about Jesus.

I'm interested.

And then it's, well, now, okay, well, now this is my opportunity to communicate the gospel.

Am I being actually the most efficient?

Do I actually even believe this?

Or even, like, certain things?

Do I even believe this anymore?

Or does, like, is this able to be communicated clearly?

And so I think that's been maybe not the mistake, but I think just something that maybe we weren't anticipating is just, again, people from the whole range of the spectrum, from someone that has no idea even how to read the Bible, where to start, who God is, none of these things, right?

All the way to the person that's been following Jesus for 50 years.

And that's, I think, like, the biggest lesson is just, you just never know.

Just don't make assumptions about people.

And, again, it kind of leans back to your initial point about the reach.

That was, like, we were kind of anticipating, but we actually had no idea.

And so it just, there's so much, again, so much preparation that you can do.

But at the end of the day, you just never know, and you can't assume anything about anyone.

Again, people that are seeking to learn about God.

Again, what a privilege it is that we can introduce someone to the gospel through, you know, this platform.

And so that's always, and even to this day, you know, years later, it's something that we're continuously, like, how do we be the best at telling the gospel?

How do we make it even more clear that it's like, oh, of course, like, it makes sense.

But for the person that doesn't have the benefit of, oh, I've been to church before, or those sorts of things.

You know, you're talking a lot about theology, and it's a wide range of need.

I'm curious, are you dealing with pastors?

Like, as you're managing, as you're building your teams, are these pastors on the church side that are engaging with these people?

Is it lay people?

Is it bivocational?

Like, what is the average person on the church home side that's engaging with these people in need?

Even for the way that our team is built.

So, you know, for me, being able to manage and lead the actual pastor chat team.

So I have people on my team with that, you know, report to me where their sole job is, not their sole job, but their main responsibility is pastor chat.

But even a big part of that, too, it's, you know, again, there's only so many bodies that we have that can operate pastor chat.

So even for a lot of our actual pastors on staff and people part of the ministry team, you know, it's almost in part of their job description of, hey, it's also, you'd love, we'd love for you to be actually volunteering on pastor chat as well.

Because, again, it's part of, hey, if you're a pastor and your sole job is, you know, to connect with people, well, pastor chat is a platform that we have that a lot of people are connecting with.

And so, yeah, it makes sense for, you know, a lot of our pastors to, hey, also be on pastor chat, you know, when you can.

So, yeah, but to answer your question, we have actual, like, dedicated staff.

But, again, pastor chat is all operated from church home staff and pastors.

So how do you handle, like, 1 a.m.?

So 1 a.m. Pacific time is 2, 3, 4 a.m. Eastern.

Like, are you getting global reach overseas where there's a demand for that?

Like, is it maybe, like, time slipped where somebody can reply back when they're awake six hours later?

Like, how urgent is pastor chat in some of those after-hour situations?

Yeah, I would say, to answer your question, how do I handle at 1 a.m.?

I'm probably fast asleep at that point.

But even that's, again, about the reach.

And I think, again, where God is leading our church and, again, the reach of we really weren't anticipating maybe how many people interact.

And so even currently, we're not, like, 24-7.

But in the future, how awesome would that be of, you know, our platform?

Could it be 24-7?

And so, yeah, currently, you know, we're not 24-7.

But that's something that we'd love to be able to do in the future.

But, again, it's one of those things that even when we're not online and someone's not able to chat with the pastor right then and there, you know, there are ways, you know, again, they'll message in and then we'll be able to get back to them once we're back online.

And so even for most of our staff, a good majority still kind of live on the West Coast.

And even as we're looking at the West Coast and even as we're looking at expansion and really building from that of, you know, how do we schedule it and have it so we can stay open longer?

So, for, you know, our international community that they can be able to communicate.

And even for those on the East Coast, making it a little bit easier for, you know, them to be able to interact.

Are you, as you're exploring the decentralized model, and I've been talking with Mark Aventi about this, and actually, I think you guys are doing 25 targeted cities somewhere around there.

I'm actually, I'm down in Miami, Florida, and I know that Miami was one that ended up and actually helped them get connected to a missions partner.

But could you, could you, are you comfortable speaking to that, maybe describing a little bit of what the decentralized model looks like?

And I'd love to know how Pastor Chat is maybe coming along and helping or engaging in some of that.

So can you, can you elaborate a little bit on that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, it's been part of, again, I think our journey for the last few years, even I think starting, and I think this has been prior to the, you know, renamed Church Home.

But, you know, there's all the stats and all the research that even shows, again, COVID played a huge part of that, I think, as well.

But even just the idea of church, and at least here, church in, you know, North America, in the Western world, where it's so often just associated with, like, something that we do on Sunday.

And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.

You know, I think the heart genuinely is, for the most part, in the right place.

But, again, coming out of COVID and seeing this, the renewed appetite for connection and something that, again, for a lot of people, we weren't able to have, you know, in the middle of that.

And, again, really putting the focus back on what the church actually is.

And it's not about this building that we occupy for a couple hours on a weekend, and it's, like, empty the rest of the week.

But, no, like, honestly, church is about people.

I know that's something that's so fundamental and, like, oh, yeah, of course, like, yeah, of course, we all know that that's, like, the basis.

But that's even the whole idea of, like, church home of, hey, what would it look like if church was not something that you just go to?

But, again, we are the church.

Why couldn't church be a gathering?

It is a gathering of people.

But what if that looked like if the gathering was actually in my home?

Or what if it was, you know, in a place where maybe it's not as intimidating for someone that's brand new of, like, I would never go to a church building on a Sunday.

But, yeah, I would love to come to a coffee shop or I'd love to, you know, come to, you know, another public space where it's a little bit more intimate and I can connect with God in that manner.

And so, yeah, even if with the rename of church home, to church home, things like pastor chat, and, again, where we just feel like God was leading our church of, let's try to get out of the building as much as a little bit more than we have been.

And not that we've totally gotten rid of buildings.

We still have large services and that sort of thing.

But it's also, like, it's not the end all, be all.

And even to my point, I think with pastor chat earlier, there's a lot of people out there that are hungry for the gospel, want to know about Jesus.

But I don't know about the whole, like, church on Sunday thing, like, or it just doesn't work with their schedule.

And so, yeah, even this whole thing of, like, decentralization of no longer do we want just, like, church to be based on who's going to speak live on Sunday or, you know, what event is happening.

And those are very important things, too, not to minimize them.

But, again, it can't be, like, the end all, be all.

And so, even with the focus of decentralization, hey, like, church home, we don't want this to be based on a personality or one pastor or, you know, these sorts of, you know, events or anything like that.

Like, of course, the number one priority is Jesus.

And so, that's kind of the idea with, like, decentralizations.

Like, when you think of church home, the idea is, like, we don't want it to focus, like, oh, it's this, like, this is who pastors it.

Or, you know, they do these really cool events or these cool conferences.

No, it's, like, the community aspect.

It's the people.

And so, yeah, you know, even the kind of initial goals, like, hey, what would it look like if we really focused in, you know, our energy and time and building community where we might not have the,

the ability that you have, like, a big building or something like that?

And what would it look like building, like, organic community that way?

Because, you know, and again, all the stats and everything shows is, even with church growth for a lot of churches in America, it's kind of just transfer growth, which is not a bad thing necessarily.

But we're also on mission to reach new people for God.

And so, even just being innovative, and again, it's, like, not all that innovative if you read the book of Acts.

But it's, yeah, just, again, something that, let's try something.

Let's swing for the fences and let's try building community where maybe we don't have the benefit of, oh, the fallback is just Sunday.

And that's where we've seen just incredible, just opportunities and continuing to build upon that.

Hey, I got to tell you, Jonathan, you're spot on right there.

And Church Home is a perfect example of this.

Because what you're seeing is that the buildings are going to reach a certain type of person.

The buildings that Church Home has in Seattle, the buildings they have in Washington, not Washington, I'm sorry, in Los Angeles, will continue to reach people.

It will be effective in ministry up to a point.

Now, unfortunately, over the grand scheme of America in the past 25 years, we've lost 25% of involvement in church.

And so what we're missing is really what Church Home is discovering.

We can continue to reach people by doing something different.

The type of person that's going to engage in a decentralized model or a microchurch model or a watch party model is different than what we're going to see the type of person reaching in the physical building.

The type of person that's reached in virtual reality is different than the type of person that's reached by the building.

And digital church, same thing.

And so, like, it's really getting back to this.

And, Jonathan, you've used the word imagination a couple times.

And innovation, you know, I say, and through Digital Church Network, the Church Digital, so many of my friends are using the word missional imagination.

Where, man, church, if we could figure out how to actually listen to the people that have crazy ideas within our churches right now, the person who's thinking outside of the box.

And, I don't know, give them an opportunity to do something.

We just, just within the past couple months, you might appreciate this, Jonathan, we did a podcast with Seacoast, which is a mega church on the other coast.

They're up in the Carolinas.

And they ran this, like, secret experiment.

They didn't tell anybody about it.

I think we were, like, the first time it was talked about publicly on the podcast.

But they created a, the intern, the 20-year-old unpaid intern came up with an idea.

And essentially, the idea was, hey, why don't we open a Discord channel unbranded for Seacoast and do discipleship within the channel?

And, oh, by the way, let's talk to some Christian influencers that aren't connected to the church and see if they'd be willing to use their influence to point people to the channel.

They've got, like, 3,000 to 4,000 people that are now going through some sort of a discipleship process in Discord.

It's a freaking genius idea.

And it came from a 20-year-old unpaid intern who, by the way, Seacoast, if you're listening, pay the intern.

Just throwing that out there.

But what happens is if we think outside the box, church, if we start to empower some of these ideas, even something like a microchurch network or a watch party, a microsite, in some of these locations like Jonathan and Church Home are trying to do, man, we can reach a different type of person than we typically can with just our buildings.

Now, this is the question I want to ask Jonathan.

Sorry, that was like a monologue.

And let me get back.

You got me hyped up, man.

I love this topic.

What's the role of digital?

What's the role of Pastor Chat?

What's the role of app gluing all these connections together?

Like, you're creating a decentralized movement.

I'm willing to bet there's some level of centralization or unifying across.

Is digital involved in that?

Yeah, 100%.

And I think, again, it's something that we continue to try to make it a better version of it and integrate it even more.

Because, again, whether...

And, you know, for even a lot of our staff, maybe, or even me personally, initially, I'm like, is it going to be that effective?

Or is this going to be kind of a flash in the pan sort of thing?

Like, it's a good idea, maybe, in theory.

But, like, is it going to last?

And even just stepping outside of the church space of, yeah, if you look around, of course, like, it's not only lasting, but it's only getting more...

It's getting bigger and bigger.

Even like you were saying, the idea, you know, with things like virtual reality, who knows where that's going to look like in a year, three years, five years.

You know, even, again, with...

Even the example, I think, as well, like, the, you know, church and buildings.

Again, we continue to do that.

We're not like, oh, it's like, it's evil now.

We're never going to do this again.

Like, you know.

But it's even that, again, that idea of meeting people where they're at.

And for a lot of people, even from the digital side of things, listening to our messages or wanting to, you know, talk with someone digitally, there could also be things that we don't even necessarily think of initially where it could be because of physical reasons, health reasons, those sorts of things where it's just not conducive for someone that wants to be a part.

But if we just focus on just one thing, is that limiting someone else where that's not possible?

And I think even, again, and I promise this will kind of relate back to your initial question, even the thing with, like, you know, a service on a Sunday in a building.

Again, it's great.

We're going to continue to do it.

And it's awesome.

But, you know, for a lot of people, again, that's maybe brand new to not even just God, but just new to, like, they're looking, they moved into the area.

They're looking for friends.

They're looking for community.

Not that, obviously, we're not, it's, we're intentionally doing it, but, you know, just natural.

Every church will see this or, like, someone walks in and just for whatever reason, they happen to get missed by being greeted.

And they go sit in service, don't meet anybody, then they leave, and now they're lonelier than they were when they walked in.

And it's like, you know, that's a thing that we obviously have seen in all the stats with, like, just church attendance and those sorts of things.

And so, again, with the digital side of, you know, someone that wants to connect with church home can be, again, physically in person, in a big building, in a church at home group, whatever that case is.

We just want to have all the bases covered.

So, again, no matter how someone's connecting with us, we want it to all kind of work in sync.

Even, for example, myself, you know, I'm part of a, I lead, help kind of lead, like, a digital group that's filled with people that are, again, they don't live in Seattle where I live.

The other person, like, that also leads, they live in Los Angeles.

You know, it's like a Bible, it could be like, we'll do a Bible study sometimes, or we'll go through, you know, leadership podcasts or things like that.

And it's the people that are in that group, they're like some of my closest friends.

And I may have not physically met them in person, but that relationship, that connection is still there.

And so, I think even when it comes to, again, like with technology and our app and, you know, websites and all these sorts of things, at the end of the day, those are things that can continue to be improved and make it, you know, a better experience for the user.

But at the end of the day, it's also just a means to an end.

And we're not going to, it's not the end all be all, but we can leverage that technology and, again, get back to the initial, like, goal of pointing people to God and helping them connect to community if that's what they're looking for.

And so, you know, it's an ongoing thing, like, a lot of our work is, again, improving systems, making technology even better, because, again, stepping outside of the church space, this has been happening in every other realm or area or business or things like that.

And it's like, why not?

You know, not that there's anything wrong with tradition, and we still obviously love tradition and that sorts of stuff.

But, you know, the church, the capital C church is not historically known as, like, the innovative, you know, space and that sort of thing.

But why couldn't it be?

Why couldn't we use the example I love of Discord?

Like, how big, especially that has gotten over the last couple years, and in a very similar sense of kind of the decentralization, like, it's all, like, online.

But you think of all the communities, genuine communities that people love being a part of, and they feel, you know, loved or supported with something because of, like, a Discord.

Like, how amazing is that?

It's almost like things, like, with Discord and stuff like that, they're doing church community better than churches are.

And we're guilty of that.

And it's like, yeah, we can learn from that.

And why not innovate and build something new that will help not only reach the current generation, but even looking ahead of the next generation, the generation that's coming.

And again, keeping that focus of Jesus and community, but just, it might be the tools could look a little different.

Yeah, that's great.

Beautiful vision.

I love this idea with the Discord.

And, you know what, I did a talk.

It's not self-promotion, I'm sorry.

But I did a talk on this, and I just put it on YouTube, of talking about asynchronous communities and how decentralized churches can utilize, or churches can utilize an asynchronous community like Discord to become decentralized.

And so we'll put a link in the show notes.

And while I'm talking about show notes, we'll link to, actually, the Church Home app as well, so y'all can get a feel for that and how it operates.

Let me ask, like, if somebody fills out a church, if somebody starts a conversation within Pastor Chat, like, is there a, is it part of the process to try to get them connected into a church home service, a decentralized location if they're within the city reach of where a church home is going to, the main locations, another church?

Like, what do you, what's the, what's the funnel look like?

What's the process, engagement process look like with somebody who walks into, to, to church or to Pastor Chat?

Yeah, really, really great question as well.

You know, of course, it's something that's like on a case-by-case basis.

But for the most part, you know, when someone messages in a Pastor Chat, the primary thing that we've noticed, it's someone that's looking for prayer about whatever could be going on, you know, quote-unquote,

big or little happening in their life.

And so, you know, again, our heart as Pastor Chat is we want to just be able to serve people and, again, point people to God.

And, you know, there's going to be instances where, you know, in an ideal world, it's like, yeah, like, are you part of, like, church home community?

Like, there's, there's a group, you know, in, in your area, or if not, you know, big part of what we've been, you know, being able to converse about, like, decentralization of, you know, people that are looking for community.

And it's, you know, even for us of, you know, we can empower someone.

Like, hey, would you, would you consider even hosting church home community where you live and, you know, impacting people where you live?

Because that's, that's going to be a big part of, you know, with our model and, you know, what we're hoping to do and what God's called us to do.

And so, you know, again, it's going to be case by case, you know, if someone's coming up with something, like, very serious and not to make light by any means.

But, you know, people like, hey, a passing just happened, like, in my family would just love, like, scripture, like, prayer, you know, that, of course, we're going to do that.

And then it's like, well, are you part of a church home group?

Like, yeah, maybe not necessarily.

That's a little tone deaf and like, ah, maybe not, you know, not the best way.

But, you know, we have, like, different workflows that we are continuing to build and even make even better just depending on what someone is asking.

And so, again, at the end of the day, it's, we even show, like, when you come across pastor, hey, this is a space where you can ask questions, ask for prayer if you need support, however we can help to the best of our ability.

That's what we're there for.

But, you know, and it's pretty, also, pretty amazing, too, that people will come across pastor chat and they actually don't know it's, like, tied to a church or, like, a lot of times people are, like, church home, like, like, you know, at the end of the day, we're at church.

And some people actually don't know that.

And that's actually pretty awesome because then that gives us an opportunity of someone that's, you know, not part of a church already or just, again, they're looking for a community.

Hey, if we have something that's current right now that they can be a part of, awesome.

If not, hey, could you consider, would you consider, you know, hosting community?

It really, for us, really diving deep into that.

And, again, part of this whole model of building community outside of just where we've always been.

Yeah, I am so in love with this conversation.

I'm going to be, I'm going to just be very transparent right here, Jonathan.

You, Church Home is probably one of my top five favorite churches in America.

Like, and I would probably say number one.

But if I did, somebody else is going to get really upset at me.

And my old pastor is going to call me out publicly, Reality Church down here in Miami.

And so I don't want to do that, but definitely love what you guys are doing.

Love the approach, the heart behind it.

And just the, I mean, just even the spirit of innovation.

Hey, let's try something, see how it works.

We're not experts in this, but we're going to carve out the road.

And definitely have just even loved this conversation of how pastor chat can lead towards decentralization and lead towards empowering people.

I'm not quoting it publicly, 98%, not publicly, 98% outside of the physical reach of the physical buildings.

Like, that's just an incredible opportunity that Church Home is realizing.

And man, thank you for the time here, obviously, but for the work that you're putting in to make this happen.

This has been incredible.

As we're landing the plane here, Jonathan, any closing thoughts?

Well, yes, I guess.

But number one, Jeff, I really appreciate even just those kind words that you said.

And, you know, at the end of the day, it's, you know, myself, I'll be number one to say, and even our team, we're just as average as anyone else.

You know, on surface, it could be, oh, that's a cool thing and all these things.

And, you know, again, it's ultimately, we feel like that's what God's calling us to do.

But it's all around this fundamental idea of we're called to preach Jesus and love people as he does.

And does that maybe look different as time goes on?

It could be.

But, you know, again, at the end of the day, we're not any, we're just average, ordinary people that love an extraordinary God and his extraordinary love for humanity and his creation.

And so, yeah, that's just our heart, I think.

And something we, at least for me personally, I never like, oh, like, look how great this has been, how cool we are.

It's like, no, like, we can always continue to build things and make things better.

And again, with the idea of how can this serve people better?

And, you know, for a world that is so desperate for Jesus and for a world that's, you know, searching for truth and looking for, obviously, what we know that Jesus, who he is and what he provides.

You know, that's just, that's, that's, that's what motivates us every day.

That's why, you know, for us as a team, it's never been about, you know, clocking in and clocking out.

But, you know, this is our heart as a team and something that we just want to continue to cultivate.

I know for, you know, anyone that's listening or watching, you know, for us, it's at the end of the day, you know, I kind of use the example.

We just want to swing for the fences because why not?

Because, you know, people's lives are on the line, not to make it like super dramatic, but it's, yeah, there's, there's a world that's hungry for Jesus.

And maybe they just don't know that what they're looking for is Jesus and the gospel.

And for us, a lot of what motivates us, like, seems good to us and the Holy Spirit.

So, again, ultimately, this church is not built on one person or, you know, a team or anything.

Like, the lead pastor of this church is Jesus.

As cliche as that might be, but, you know, we're just, we want to be obedient where we feel like God's called us.

And we know that our calling might look a little different than another church.

And that's totally okay, because we're not all called to do the same things, but we're all called to do the same thing and to reach people.

I love the heart of a humble disruptor.

And so the humility you show is awesome.

Swinging for the fences is great, but there's a part of this also, like, and I'll call it out for you, is that you took a risk.

And by you, I mean the organization.

I mean so many others that have paved this way.

And, you know, Mark shows that humble disruptor as well in the conversations that we've had.

We'll link to that podcast.

I think I've at least done two.

Maybe just one on the podcast and it was something else.

But anyway, we'll link to it in the show notes.

You can dig into it.

But the heart is that there's a risk that's involved.

And minimize the risk, build a sandbox, figure out ways to fire the BB before the bullet, before you drop the bomb.

Like, you know, do it in pencil, before pen, before permanent marker.

I can use whatever analogy makes sense to your people.

But try to figure out how to experiment with some of this stuff in ways that make sense.

And then once you get a proof of concept, keep building on it.

You don't get a proof of concept, keep experimenting and iterate, trying something different.

And I just, I love that you guys are so aggressive in this space.

And I can keep gushing stuff all day long.

Unfortunately, I don't have time because I got to jump into another call.

One of my other top favorite churches in America, Tyler Sansom from First Capital Christian in Corden, Indiana.

I got lead pastor over there.

I got to jump on a call with him.

And yes, I did just drop a name.

But he is one of the top five as well.

You guys, actually, it would be interesting to connect Church Home and First Capital together.

It's a much smaller church.

It's a much smaller church, but as aggressive, decentralized, micro locations, pastoring digitally, discipling digitally, like incredible vision.

Oh my gosh, I'm going to figure out how to make this happen.

I'm going to bring the two together somehow.

Like we're going to make it happen.

Let's make it happen.

I'm in.

But not today.

I got to go.

Not today because I do have to go.

But Jonathan, thank you for the time, sir, coming on here.

I appreciate it.

Check out the links in the show notes for more resources.

But for Jonathan, this is Jeff for the Church Digital, Digital Church Network and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Thanks for jumping on the show here.

We'll see you next time on the podcast.

Y'all have a good day.