EP243: Surviving the Creative Christmas Church Service

When you are able to lead up and pitch that vision to your lead pastor, this is not just

for execution, but it's for the journey and how we're treating each other along the way.

And hopefully that unlocks their heart and gets them to sign up on a concept.

So I've always found that to be super helpful.

If you're leading up to a lead pastor, lead with that, or a lead pastor just realized

you're going to put your staff in a much healthier position by giving them a concept

much earlier.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church

Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally

and physically.

Our heart?

That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize

your church.

And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

This is a Thanksgiving week here at the podcast.

So right up front, let's take a moment here, pause and say, happy Thanksgiving if you are

in the U.S.

And if you're like our guest from Canada, well, happy Monday, because it's not a thing.

Thanksgiving may be a thing, but it's not a thing.

Is Thanksgiving a thing, Ben Stapley?

You tell me.

Is Thanksgiving a thing in...

Jeff Reed, you Americans are so thankless.

You wait all the way to November to celebrate.

Us Canadians, we are so thankful.

We celebrate in October because we just can't wait that long in the year.

Plus, our harvest season is earlier because it's colder.

But we're also a more thankful people, so burn on you.

So what you're telling me is you believe that you are more thankful than Americans because

you celebrate, like, less than 30 days sooner?

Yes, it's a whole month.

You know what?

We're a 12th more thankful than you are.

I'll put it there.

You're a 12th more thankful.

Maybe, listen, I don't know.

We can get into a political thing in America, what we're feeling about that.

I don't want to go there.

Nobody wants to go there.

But right now, hey, happy Thanksgiving at least.

And Ben, happy Thursday coming up this...

Well, he's in...

You're in Jersey right now, so maybe you'll enjoy something for Thanksgiving.

You recognize the holiday, you Canadian, right?

Like, you're not so biased that you...

Okay.

So what is your...

Listen, as we're totally going off here, which is awesome, what does Thanksgiving look

like for a Canadian...

Off the rails already.

...that lives in America?

What do you do?

Not much.

I just connect with my Canadian friends and text them and say, happy Thanksgiving.

And then I wait for the American one to gorge myself.

So that's about it.

I'm, you know, my mother's not mailing me a frozen turkey.

It's just, it's, you know, now that...

Yeah, it's fairly lonely, Jeff.

It's fairly lonely.

So you're totally a hypocrite because you think you're 12% better than an American, but you

don't acknowledge the actual Canadian holiday.

Instead, you wait for the American to come around.

It's true.

Okay.

I just wanted to get that one out of the way.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

This is what this episode is going to be like.

Ben Stapley is a very good friend of mine and who has been inspirational in my life, honestly,

before I met the guy.

And when I met the guy, he was true to his form and excited to have him on the podcast.

Before we get to that, though, I launched a book.

We published the book, The Church, excuse me, VR and the Metaverse Church, how God is moving

in this virtual yet quite real reality.

And so that is out there right now.

It is a free download.

Thank you very much, Leadership Network, for providing this resource free to churches and

to people like you.

You can buy it on Amazon as a paperback book.

You can buy the Kindle if you want that, but the PDF is available for you right now.

Go swing over to thechurch.digital slash VR book.

That'll get you to the right page.

Thechurch.digital slash VR book.

We've had hundreds of downloads already on the book and very excited about the trajection

of it.

Some great feedback, telling stories of people that are launching and running churches and

doing ministry and evangelism in virtual reality.

And so it's some really interesting perspectives in there.

So go check that out.

Now, commercial over.

Let's go and pivot back to the hypocrite Canadian in the room, Ben Stapley.

It's great to have you on the show here, my friend.

Ben is currently executive pastor for a church up in New Jersey, the Life Christian Church.

He was down here for a season in Miami, Florida, where I am, working at the church that I formerly

worked at.

So we developed a relationship through that.

And now he's back up closer to his motherland, closer to some family up there in Canada as well.

So Ben, thanks for jumping on the show here with us.

It's great to be here.

Most people, Jeff, when they leave New Jersey, they don't come back.

I'm one of the few that's come back to the state.

And a quick plug for your book.

I got a chance to skim through it, but I did dive into theological ramifications of virtual

ministry, and I really enjoyed that.

So that's my quick plug for the book as well.

I love how you're not only practical with your approach, but theological, which generally

speaking, I haven't seen as much ink spilled on that topic recently.

So I love that.

Yeah, there is plenty of room to explore the theology of that.

And it's funny, in the book itself, I say this is not going to be the in-depth theological,

like there could be books just written on that one topic, but we're going to scratch the surface

of it and start some of those conversations.

So thank you for that.

Ben Stapley read my book.

Like, that's awesome.

But hey, so we're not talking VR, if you're listening.

That's not where we're going with this conversation today.

It's Thanksgiving week, which means Christmas is around the corner.

And I'm going to put on my ministry hat when I was production director, when I was creative

director, when I was communications director, when I was weekend experience director at physical

churches.

To be honest, if bluntly a little bit here, I hated this time of year.

This time of year was always difficult for me because everybody ramps up ministry.

Everybody ramps up their desires and expectations.

And there was just, there was a lot of tension and frustration centered around, you know,

the worship team, wanting specific things for some of these major events and holidays.

Production had their desires.

Communications wanted their own thing.

The video department, the creative guys wanted to do something crazy.

The online guys trying to figure out what to do with this.

And like, everybody ramps up.

Do I get any resources?

Yeah, exactly.

The online guys like, you want me to do what with the ball of twine?

Like, and so I have been, I appreciate the joke.

That was well-timed.

And so like, there's just all this tension centered around this.

And what do we do with this?

How do we operate?

How do we work together as a team?

How do we align?

What does that even mean?

If you're the leader in this situation, how do you lead in this?

And, you know, I'm always the guy that's like, let me bring in people smarter than me.

People that have been more successful in this space than me.

And let's, let's learn from them.

Thus, enter Ben Stapley into the conversation.

Because I've seen Ben navigate this time and time again.

So I would love to have a conversation centered around that.

So Ben, thanks for jumping on.

It's great to be here, Jeff.

Just to give some context for myself.

I've been doing Christmases now for 17 years in ministry.

It was in television prior to that.

So I have some, I have some years of experience of what has worked and what hasn't.

Paid the dumb tax a number of times.

And hopefully this conversation helps your listeners avoid some of the hurdles that I

had to jump through or break through in finding a good work relationship with the teams that

are on peer levels and then also up and down the organization to make sure that they're

not just executing the experience, but they're enjoying the experience as well.

So I'm, I'm, I'm excited for this conversation because I'm going to pass on what I've learned

to help other people not have to experience the pain, some of the pain that I have in learning

some of this stuff over the years.

So right off the bat, you know, some of the tension that I felt in many ways is a lot, and this

is not a healthy, but this is what, this is what I've observed in my own ministry, as well

as what I've seen from others in the space.

Oftentimes, a lot of these ministries operate in silos.

They're operating in separation from each other, doing whatever they want.

And in seasons like Christmas and Easter, really these siloed ministries are forced to work

together.

Almost they're shoved into the same room where they have to operate in the same space, whereas

they're usually able to call their own shots outside of that.

What, what does that look like?

How have you seen that?

Or how would you maybe address some of that siloed approach here?

Oftentimes we work independently in terms of some of the teams that you've listed, be it

your communications, your creative, your worship, your production, your guest services, and we're

off doing our own things.

And then we have to throw ourselves together quickly.

I always like to start with the why behind it.

And so like, why are we trying to do this?

Why are we trying to be unified?

And so I, as a believer, I look towards the model of our Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,

who's a triune God, different but equal and unified.

And that's, it was Jesus's prayer, right?

His high priestly prayer with his disciples in John 17.

You know, I want you to be unified and to have unity just as me and the Father are united.

And so when I, when I start with it, I always start with the why.

Why are we trying to be united?

Because we're, when we do that, we reflect the nature of God first and foremost.

So let's, let's be united.

And then second of all, in terms of the, how do we do it?

I've, I've been in work situation, you know, call out, you know, when I was at Christ Fellowship,

it was, we were, we were physically divided.

Our worship department was in one building.

Our creative department was in another floor of another building.

Our production was all over the place.

We, they weren't even naturally rubbing shoulders with each other.

So in terms of, if you're looking to get practical right away, the how is get your people in closer

proximity with each other, not just when you're planning your big holidays, but throughout the

year.

That proximity will build an affinity between those team members and those departments.

So if you're, if you're already siloed physically, you're going to be siloed when it comes philosophically,

when it comes relationally.

So, so get people physically together and that will help right away dissolve some of these

tensions that you're bringing up right now because you just, you're not naturally rubbing shoulders

with each other.

It's hard to, it's hard to despise or think negatively of somebody that you interact with on a regular

basis.

So first of all, get your people closer to each other.

That will help resolve a lot of these tensions if they are siloed physically on your campuses.

Yeah.

I mean, giving the benefit of the doubt, what you're describing here, when you have relational

equity, when you're, when you're friends, when you have a relationship with a person, you're,

you're more likely to see that.

And oftentimes in church space, I mean, let's, let's be honest, especially in these creative

departments in communication, it's 24 seven, three 65, you're, you're stretching every resource

you have that, that you can get there, but it's hard to kind of take time to do that.

Now, one of the things that I've heard, and this is this, I have felt this tension where

I was the guy, when I was the communications director, weekend experience director, setting

this stuff up, like I would want to talk Christmas, like in September.

I would want to get everything done and lined up.

So there's time to develop on that.

Uh, and, and also, I know what it is to like, look to the senior leader, to the lead communicator

and say, Hey, what are you preaching Christmas?

And, you know, sometime around the beginning of school, like Labor Day.

And, uh, that often doesn't go over well.

That conversation's not, not received oftentimes.

Um, how do you deal with the tension of, of trying to, when do you suggest that we do talk

about Christmas?

Like, should we already have the plan going into Thanksgiving and how do we get everybody

on board with maybe that mindset?

Yeah.

You've brought up two points that are helpful.

The first, the first is time.

And then the second is, um, where is the concept originating from?

So when it comes to time, a lot of these tensions that you're going to have will be mitigated

with the gift of time, the more time you have, the easier it is to resolve these issues.

If you have a truncated, uh, workflow, we're going to all lean to our worst tendencies and

the, the, the bad tendencies of ourself are going to come out.

So give yourself the gift of time to get really practical.

Um, I like to start planning, um, Christmas no later than September because it gets, things

get rolling really quickly.

Uh, but the, the tension, you know, and I think most churches do this fairly well.

I don't see this tension.

The bigger tension I see is everyone forgets about Easter.

So I'm already calling that out now that it's, you know, in December, you should be starting

about Easter because you're going to, you know, take the break over the Christmas holiday.

You're going to come back in your big January series.

And then you look at the calendar and Easter is two months away.

So, um, generally speaking, I like to plan, I like to start planning Christmas in September

and start planning Easter in, in December.

Um, because if not, you're, you're, you're behind the ball.

So that's the first thing in terms of timeline.

The second thing you talk about going to your lead pastor early and saying, Hey, what's you,

what's your idea?

Can you give it to me?

Um, if they don't have something that's fine, then you need to start pitching things because

you can't, you know, it's okay for them to pull out the, the baby Jesus story and their

message that they, they've used probably year after year after year, they can pull that out

the week before that doesn't work for everybody else.

Um, and so you need to gracefully, uh, light a little fire underneath them and saying, we

need a con you don't need a concept because you can do it last minute.

We need a concept now.

Um, and when it comes to that, I always encourage teams to say, where is, where is the concept

coming from?

It can come two directions.

It can come top down.

So the lead pastor is saying, you know, for this Christmas, um, we know for ourselves,

we're doing an evergreen theme.

The, you know, here in the Northeast, um, you know, it's fall season.

We're losing our leaves, but evergreen trees stay green all year long.

And we're using that as a metaphor for God's love that the seasons are going to change,

but God's love towards us is consistent.

It stays green.

It stays vibrant and stays fresh.

Other things are dying around, but his love does not.

It's evergreen.

And so we're, that's the theme that we're going with.

Um, our, our, our, our lead pastor didn't have that theme.

Um, and we had to pitch it to him.

So either the concept goes top down, the lead pastor towards the team, or the team pitches

a couple ideas.

I would say two to three is if you're pitching more ideas than that, then you're kind of wasting

your time.

You don't really have solid ideas.

You just have a couple of guesses.

Pitch two or three solid ideas.

And then beyond that, like in terms of a regular rhythm of work, figure out which works for

you and stick to it.

So, you know, I've been a part of some organizations where the lead pastor is really the creative

director as well.

They have tons of concepts and they want to say, okay, great.

We know it's coming top down and be a part of other organizations or help other churches

where the lead pastor is not creative at all.

And they need the creative department to pitch ideas.

So figure out which model you are and stick with it.

Um, that'll make, that'll, that'll bring a lot of peace to a lot of members of the team,

just understanding which model that you're working with.

So if somebody hasn't like, let's, let's do worst case scenario.

And if this is you right now, I'm praying for you.

So it's Thanksgiving week and somebody out there hasn't put one thought into this.

Man, I don't even know how to start there.

Uh, well, I guess we're all praying for you.

If, if, if you have not started this process, um, then I would set up a meeting with your

lead pastor tomorrow and to say, Christmas is around the corner.

We don't have anything up on the whiteboard yet.

Um, you know, here are two or three ideas that I think will work.

Will you sign off on one now or end of day or end of week so that we can start ideating?

Um, so if, if, if you don't have a concept yet, um, ideate on a concept and then pitch

it to your lead pastor and give them a timeline that you need to, um, uh, they need to sign

off on and gracefully, you know, sometimes lead pastors don't understand all the work

that's needed and the domino effects that need to fall.

And the first domino that needs to fall is the concept.

What are we doing?

What's the, what's the big idea?

We're trying to wrap this around that no other dominoes can keep falling down after that until

that first one topples over.

So, and I always tell them like, Hey, the, the sooner you get that concept, the better

the experience is going to be.

And more importantly, we're talking about like team health, um, organizational health, relational

health, not just the experience is going to be better at the end of the day, but the

journey is going to be better.

And this is probably like, this is probably where I'd camp out with you, Jeff here is

for probably the first half of my career.

I, I didn't solely focus on the, the destination, but it was the big thing.

How, how is the show gonna go?

What is the end result?

And I paid little attention to the, to the, to the, the journey.

It was all destination, no journey.

And because of that, I compromised what God wanted to do in our midst, leading up to the

show.

Uh, I, I, I treated the show as like some big crown achievement instead of realizing the

way I interact with team members during the process is hallowed ground.

The way that I'm able to treat them with grace and respect and dignity and receive that back

from them, that, that makes God pleased as much as, wow, we, we, we hit the note on that song

and that, that vocal run was well-produced or that video was dope.

And I would say, you know, I'm probably at this point in my career, I didn't even say

the journey is more important than the destination.

And, but oftentimes we compromise it.

We compromise it for the show.

And so for my lead pastor, especially if, you know, lead pastors are different, are differently,

but a lot of them, you know, kind of prophet, priest, king, a lot of them have that, that

pastoral heart.

That's why they're a lead pastor.

And if you, and if you're, if you're having tension, trying to get that concept from them,

let them know the sooner I get a concept with you, the more Christ, um, the more we'll

be able to be Christ-like to each other during this process, because we have time to do that

instead of just like, give me, give me this final product.

Um, when you are able to lead up and pitch that vision to your lead pastor, this is not

just for execution, but it's for the, the journey and the, how we're treating each other along

the way.

And hopefully that unlocks their, their heart and gets them to sign up on a concept.

So I've, I've always found that to be super helpful.

If you're, if you're leading up to a lead pastor, lead with that, or the lead pastor just

realized you were going to put your staff in a much healthier position by giving them a

concept much earlier.

Yeah.

I, I, I love this idea of the, of the journey, you know, in my own, in my own career, it

was, uh, you know, with the challenge of people process products, you know, and I'm sure you've

wrestled with that where, you know, in, in my life, there were seasons where I valued

the product far more than the people in the process.

Uh, and then I would value the process and then process and product, but I was still

beating up the people and, and juggling that tension between the three.

But definitely, um, you know, and I appreciate, honestly, just the, the honesty of, Hey, you

know what?

There are seasons where it's been more about the destination and we really missed what God

was, was offering through that.

So I'm going to ask a, um, a controversial, maybe controversial is not the right word, but

you can take this many, many different ways.

This, uh, this question, one of the things that I've always valued about you've been

is, you know, and you're the guy who's like the, from, from the streets to the stage, to

the screen, like you're always reinforcing digital.

You're, you're a, you were, you were an online pastor at Liquid, right?

At some point, like you were, that was that.

So as a digital pastor has been part of your, your career path.

And so you've always leaned, uh, digital, even as much as involved as you are in physical

church ministry.

When you're looking at Christmas, are we broadcasting live?

Are we doing something different?

Like what, when you're looking and reading the average church in America, what are you

suggesting we do?

Where does digital fit into Christmas 2022?

Well, I'd say it fits in high, high, high, um, Christmas and new year's.

If you haven't planned this out, or if you haven't looked at the calendar folks, let me, let

me give you a quick, you know, we're recording here, um, in November, but it's, it's currently

37 days left till Christmas.

But again, if you haven't looked at the calendar, Christmas, the 25th falls on a Sunday.

And then beyond that, uh, new year's falls on a Sunday as well.

So you probably, if you haven't figured out.

I just want to call out.

I think it's incredible that you knew to the day, how many days were left 37 days like

that do you, you, you, you have like that written down on it, on your phone where it's an internal

clock.

I can't, I can't turn it off.

No, I can't turn it off.

The worst thing is I'll, I'll text my team that, you know, and I could just like, they're

like, stop it.

This is not, this is not giving me the peace that you're proclaiming you want during the

season.

Jesus is the Prince of peace.

You texting me, you know, how many minutes we have left is that.

So, um, because both of those services fall on holidays, you need to be planning what you're

doing now.

Hopefully, if you haven't done it yet, you need to definitely be planning it now.

And I would encourage you to lean towards exclusively online services during those dates.

Let's be honest, Christmas morning on the 25th, I am not going to church.

I, my kids want to open presents on my bed, uh, with us and, you know, gather around the

tree and pull out the stockings.

That's what, that's what they want to do.

And I'm speaking as a, as a family man, but other people, um, you know, singles, uh, couples,

wherever you are in your stage of empty nesters, wherever you are in your stage of life,

you're probably already have your Christmas traditions locked in for the 25th.

And part of those are not going to a church service.

So don't compete against that.

Don't compete against what people already have ingrained in their traditions, um, but provide

something that is, is helpful for them.

So for us, it's creating a truncated experience.

It's for Christmas, a 20 minute experience that we feel is going to hit most families by

and large, a little something for the kids, a little something for the adults.

Um, but you know, it's a busy morning.

You're going to do your own thing as a family.

You may go to extended family that night, but Hey, we just want you to take 20 minutes.

Uh, and this, you know, this isn't live.

It's on demand because again, some people, we're not saying everyone gather at 10 o'clock.

It's going to be hard to do that.

To be honest, everyone's got a different schedule Christmas morning, but it's on demand available.

First thing, uh, Christmas morning, we encourage you to take a pause and maybe even before you

go to the presents and you unwrap the presents under the tree, watch this 15 to 20 minute

experience that helps us remember that Jesus is the ultimate present.

And, and, and in a sense, um, spiritually unwrap that and enjoy him, enjoy his birth.

Enjoy the fact that he was sent to earth for you first.

Remember that.

And then as you enter into this, this gift unwrapping, recall that as well.

So that is, if you're looking to do digital well, I'd encourage that.

And then beyond that on the first, um, we're, we're encouraging, uh, we're doing that as

well.

We're going exclusively online.

I encourage other churches to do that as well for the first, that's two Sundays back to

back exclusively online.

I know that might be controversial for some churches, um, but you're going to have a hard

draw for people coming out on both those mornings.

Yeah.

We're the church that I'm at, we're doing, we're actually filming our, our, uh,

New Year's day service.

Uh, we're going to be filming that December 10th.

And so actually the worship is December 10th.

Uh, we're doing, um, and actually I've never seen this before, but evidently it's a thing.

And so we're doing NPR music style.

If you've ever Google NPR music, it's, it's really interesting where the NPR radio stations,

they, they create these videos of like different, uh, musical groups singing.

And when they do like the artists, the, uh, concerts for the radio,

through NPR, like they'll, they'll film it.

And so it's, it's a really unique style.

And so that's what we're, what we're filming for it.

And then we'll film a message.

I think the week after the 17th, uh, kind of create that.

So you guys are exclusive online for the 21st, 25th and the 1st.

Um, we are doing a, uh, Christmas, I'm, I'm at a church plant.

Uh, and so like, to be honest, there's a couple hundred people.

It's very small, uh, growing.

It's been around a little over a year.

So we're doing a Christmas Eve thing, uh, which in Miami is questionable because, you

know, the Cubans, Hispanic Christmas Eve is a big deal, but we're doing a Christmas Eve

service and then nothing Christmas day.

And then we're all completely online, uh, for a new year's day.

And so that, that'll be the, the, uh, the big push for that.

Um, yeah, so, um, we're, we're excited, uh, about digital.

And, and I think the ideas of, of planning that is digital.

You know, there are churches that will, um, there are churches that will do their, uh,

a stream of a service online.

Uh, there are churches that will, will do, uh, uh, you know, a special recording or a studio

recording or something like that.

You know, at this point, if you're, if you're not doing, if you haven't started talking about

doing something different, I wouldn't do anything different.

Like I would just stick to what your normal rhythm is.

Cause I know how difficult it is to set up, uh, a studio set up, especially if you don't

have the culture set up for that and you don't have the experience of that yet.

And it takes a lot of time and coordination to get some of that, uh, going.

We mentioned it as an aside in terms of getting resources that people are kind of looking for

resources.

And you mentioned like, you know, your online pastor is, you know, looking for resources.

And we, we made a quick aside, a quick joke on that in terms of, you know, you know, best

of luck.

And it's the, in terms of collaborative work, like one of the, one of the things I've seen

to be successful over the years is equally valuing the people who are performing on the stage

and the people who are performing behind the screens.

So when I say on the stage, um, you're, you know, your hosts, um, your worship leaders,

your, um, you know, your, your drama team, and you know, on the stage behind the screen,

people, you know, your, your sound engineer, your technical director, people, um, videographers,

photographers, people who are, you know, kind of like we're, we're doing right now working

behind screens.

And the reason I say that is I've seen in my own context and other church contexts, a

slight, uh, evaluation and a slight, uh, improvement for those who were on the stage.

We hold them a little higher in our esteem.

And because of that, you know, I've, I've, when you, when you hear about people being a

diva, it's not, it's usually not your sound engineer.

It's, it's probably somebody on the, on the drama team.

Um, or if you treat yourself, you know, who, who gets to be in the green room, it's, you

know, just the worship team in some contexts.

And because of that, we give higher preference to those who perform on a stage than those who

are behind the screens.

And that can become really toxic if, if left unchecked.

I've been in part of some cultures where I saw the worship leader during a rehearsal,

uh, you know, asking, Hey, sound guy, can I get such and such more in my ears?

And it is like, I had to talk to them afterwards.

It's like, they, they have a name, you know, it's not sound guy.

And he's like, Oh, it's hard to see who's there in the, in the booth in the back.

And so, you know, it just, I said, then stop by the tech booth before introduce yourself,

find out who's back there and call them by name because you are not more important than

them.

Just because you're on a stage and not, not behind the screen doesn't, it doesn't elevate

you to some higher level.

And, uh, teams feel that they sense that they see that they know when they're peer level or

they know when someone's getting special treatment.

So if you have special treatment, you need to cut that out right away or your teams will

never get to a healthy place.

And I could, I could go on on this, but I just, I've seen it again and again.

And that'd be one, that'd be my one challenge when you're talking about how service planning

teams work well.

We're all on a peer level here.

And in talking even about that peer level, like draw that same value, we're all at the

same level.

What does brainstorming look like?

How do you start to curate and capture some of these ideas and bring others in?

Talk to me a little bit about your experience with that.

Yeah.

I, uh, you have ideation and you have execution.

Ideation is the, generally speaking, it's the fun stuff where you get to spitball, you

get to, you get to dream, you get to throw stuff up on the whiteboard.

And then the hard work is the actual execution, getting those ideas done.

Sometimes we only invite the creative types.

I'm putting air quotes around this, um, to the ideation.

And so it's your, yeah, it's, it's those people.

It's your, um, maybe it's your worship leader.

Maybe it's your graphic designer.

Maybe it's your videographer, but we don't invite the technical people towards it.

We don't invite the, um, the, the, uh, tech producer or the sound engineer because they're

technical people and they don't have creative ideas.

Well, first of all, I found that to be a misnomer.

I found some of my most creative people in the past have been in my production departments

and they're, they're really, they're skilled technically, but they also are great ideators.

So don't fool yourself and think that they're not going to, and even if they don't bring

them into that process, because that's a fun environment to be on.

And if, if you're only allowing the creative types to have the fun and it's all the technical

types who are executing it, then again, you're setting up a divide.

Um, and beyond like having the fun, it's the camaraderie.

We were all in this together.

We all, we are all part of coming up with the ideas and now we're all a part of executing

the ideas.

If you, if you make camps, it's going to be felt and then there's going to be divides

and there's going to be tensions between the two.

So invite, invite both to the brainstorming process.

You know, I've heard, I've heard somebody, some, I forget who this was, but I literally

just had this conversation this week where somebody was like, yeah, the first 20 minutes

of every brainstorming meeting is just trash.

It's just people talking and getting comfortable with each other, like throwing out the stupid

ideas.

And, and, and, uh, and I would, I was guilty of this.

Like I was the no guy in some of those meetings.

It's like, no, that's stupid.

No, we can't do that.

No.

And to call myself out, having that approach in some of those brainstormings destroys the

meeting.

It shuts it down.

And so it's, it's 20 minutes of thinking crazy of just talking and almost building a relational

trust with this to really get to the point where the ideas start to get good and you,

you can build something off that.

And so it was, it was funny in my life.

It was Jared Lovins.

Jared Lovins was the, was the communications director.

And if you know, JR, that just really dated me because that was a long time ago, but he

looked at me and he's like, Reed, you're, you're actually, he said a word I'm not allowed

to say on the radio or on the podcast here, but he said, he said, Reed, you got it.

You got to stop.

You got it.

You are, you're, you're, you're killing these meetings.

You don't even know you're doing it, but you're doing it.

And so, you know, for maybe some of you, you, you've been excluding some people from

these meetings because they're, you know, the word that I'm not allowed to say on the

podcast.

Well, guess what?

Maybe it's time for you to have a gentle conversation with them, show some grace and point out some

of these errors and flaws so that they can be included into it.

Yeah.

The, the same premise that applies the same two golden rules that apply for improv apply

to ideation.

Yes.

And so someone says an idea and you're leading that meeting.

Yes.

Maybe it seems a little crazy, but like, thank you for sharing that.

Yes.

And, and can someone build on that?

Is there, you know, and what's, what's the end?

They, they mentioned idea.

How do we build upon that?

So we could, we could rabbit trail here on how to, how to foster a great creative meeting

and how to ideate well with the team.

But those two principles right there, yes, and will help not shut down the conversation,

but foster it and let it flourish.

And oftentimes you have to like, you have to entertain a lot of those bad ideas before you get to

the good one.

But if you say that's stupid, that's stupid, then the person who's got the good idea is

never going to speak up.

So yes, yes.

Great idea.

Great idea.

Even though it might stink, you know, and what else do you have to add that fosters and

unlocks the good ideas?

Okay.

So we've got a plan.

We've worked together.

Everybody's united.

We're all hanging around, holding hands, singing Kumbaya.

Kumbaya.

It's, it's a beautiful time.

Uh, and then December 22nd, uh, the Holy Spirit has spoken to the lead communicator and

there's a whole new plan.

What's the tension of following the lead, uh, fighting for what's established.

How do you navigate, uh, those types of, we've all had those types of seasons.

Let's not sugarcoat this.

We've all been there.

How do you navigate that?

I stumped them people.

No, it's just, um, it's, it's, it's different based upon your leader.

And hope, I guess I would say, hopefully before this point has come up, you've gone through

the trenches with them a couple of times and you have some relational equity that you've

built up, but, uh, and if not, then maybe it's, it's after the, if you, if you haven't,

you know, at the end of the day, you almost have to fight a battle a little bit before,

like there's that mutual respect and, and come out on the other side of it.

But it might be a situation where you may need to execute it, but on the back end, um,

you have to gracefully say that, um, that can't happen again.

Because if we do, if it does, we're going to lose our staff and like we, we, we, we can

do what you want us to do.

Um, but I need to articulate the consequences if we do that.

And so I think that's probably the most helpful thing that I've come into those conversations.

Yes, we can, we can throw it the whole thing right now and do that different game plan.

I'm telling you right now, we're going to have, you know, a couple of our staff members,

a couple of our volunteers, a couple of our performers, um, say, that's it.

I'm not a part of the crazy train anymore.

And I want off choo choo, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I'm getting off this train.

And so I try to gracefully, um, present those outcomes.

And at the end of the day, where it's in it, when you're able to do that and say, really

is, is your idea so great and so blessed and so God inspired that it's worth losing

these staff members or these performers or these people who invested weeks and months

and efforts.

And if so, then we'll move forward with it.

But if not, just realize that, uh, and maybe we should stick with what's going on and, um,

you know, something's happened here where inspiration is coming to you last minute.

What can I do differently next time so that I'm able to check in with you?

We're able to set aside time praying so that you're able to receive inspiration sooner.

And we don't get to this position again down the road.

So lay out the consequences or maybe, um, repercussions or domino effects consequences

might sound a little negative.

Um, and, um, and then after that, also, how do we change our workflow?

So this doesn't happen again.

And we're not in this difficult moment where the lead pastor has to make a decision.

Do I move forward with my idea?

Um, or do I stick to what's already happening?

I don't, you know, as someone who's reporting to you, I don't want to put you in that position

again.

So how can I, how can we change that down the road?

That's, that's so good.

Uh, being open and, and, and honest, understanding the consequences, I think is, is a great way

to, to look at that.

And maybe it is worth, um, playing the card, solving the, doing what, what the, the lead

communicator wishes, but there's, there has to be a, you know, use the phrase, uh, been

relational equity.

There has to be a relationship, uh, between whoever's leading the group.

Hopefully someone's leading out in that.

And it's not all five of those departments answering to a lead communicator or an executive.

Hopefully there's a clear leader in that, uh, and have that person that's capable of, of,

of explaining and building that relationship with the executive team, the, the lead communicator,

whatever the, the org chart.

And, and, and, you know, it's, we're talking all like one way, like up in this relationship.

There's also down.

And I'm a, I'm a firm believer that if God was able to, um, develop his plan of his salvation

in eternity past, and he knew before the foundations of the world, what he was going to do with you

and I in our lives.

If God is that, that much of a planner, then his spirit can talk to us in advance and it

doesn't have to be last minute.

So I'm a firm believer in that, but I'm, I am also, even in the midst of that, I am also

realizing that the spirit does, um, prompt us, provide us, give us, even with our best planning

still may speak to us last minute.

So how do we hold both of those in tension?

And so with, with the teams that I oversee is we're going to plan the lead pastors involved,

but you know what, there's going to be a couple of times a year and it's different in different

contexts.

Some people are, it's, you know, it's all kind of last minute.

Some people, none of it's last minute.

I think both of those are unhealthy on the ends of the spectrum.

So the teams that I tell them from the executing is we're going to plan, but there will be sometimes,

even with our best planning that the spirit speaks to us last minute and we're going to

follow the spirit's direction and what we've invested, we're going to, we're going to turn

the corner and do something differently because at the end of the day, I don't want to feel

handcuffed to my plan either and not give any room to the spirit to speak last minute.

Now, from my philosophy, it's a philosophy.

My philosophy is that's the, that's the exception to the rule, but that exception should be made

as well.

So beautiful with that two-way communication of realizing the Holy Spirit can't speak on

a Tuesday.

It's okay.

Maybe exception to the rule, navigating that tension.

All of this, all of this, and there's, this, this is not a, there's not a solution to this.

It's a tension to be managed.

So let me ask this.

It's, it's, I don't know, January 10th.

Like are we, or January 2nd, we come back from the, the online expression.

We walk in that Monday.

Is it full steam ahead towards Easter?

Are we doing a post-mortem and discussing how Christmas went?

What is, what does a review look like in a healthy, creative environment?

If it's good enough to do, it's good enough to review.

So yes, your big days, your big events, definitely review those.

But beyond that, I would say you, you need a review system for even your weekly services.

You know, just a simple, what worked, what didn't.

Hopefully you spend a little more time on what worked because people want to be corrected.

They want to be coached, but they also want to be celebrated.

So celebrate your team members.

And then for myself, this is interesting as well.

So not, you know, not just do big days, your Easter's, your Christmases, but do weekly service, a review process for your weekly services.

It might be just a 15-minute check-in.

But what I've, I've found myself needing to give my teams a sabbatical for that.

And so what I would tell them is that, you know, every about four, you know, once a month, we're not going to review the service.

Because I just want to give you, I want to give you that time off, is if we do it again and again and again and never have a break from it.

First of all, we don't have fresh eyes when we come, you know, because we're just doing it continually.

And at some, sometimes it could feel like it's just like, oh, here's the review again.

And my volunteer dropped the ball again and like, yeah, like this is a consistent problem.

And it just, it feels like a drain because it gets brought up frequently.

Giving ourselves a Sabbath from that, saying we're going to give ourselves grace and not review the service, I think is helpful as well for the sake of the health of your team.

That is great.

That's solid.

I've never thought of that.

Never had that perspective.

Take a break.

Give yourself grace every once in a while, once a month.

And have the conversation with the volunteer, but there's only so often you can beat up that volunteer.

So, love, love that.

In the church world, we're not beating up volunteers.

Don't read too much into that comment.

You know what I mean.

But beautiful with that.

Hey, Ben, man, thanks for jumping on and doing this podcast with us.

Like, man, it's always, I love hanging out with my Canadian or formerly known as Canadian.

Maybe one day, once again, being a Canadian.

Like, is the goal to move back to the motherland to you?

Like, do you want to?

I still have my citizenship.

So, and I do not have the privilege of participating in the insanity that happens every four years down here in the States when it comes to voting season.

And I'm glad not to participate in that madness.

I was about to say you willingly live in the United States during an election year.

That is, I think even Ed Stetzer.

Ed Stetzer, a friend of the show, he's been living over in England.

He's been six months doing some stuff over with the seminary over there.

I think he tweeted the other day, he's considering staying in England because U.S. is just that crazy.

So, congratulations.

I'm sorry, Ben.

That tells me a lot of your credibility.

Living in America, even then we don't have to.

We're joking, but I've enjoyed living here for the past 17 years.

It's been good for me and my family.

Very cool.

As we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts?

The last one would just be, I think as we're, you know, we've been talking about how to unite these teams, these different teams, that your guest services, your production, your worship, your creative.

The one thing that we didn't say is whoever is, two things, there should be one person overseeing all these teams so they have like a holistic view of what's going on and help provide synergy for them to work with each other.

And the other thing is that person should be sitting on the executive level because it's such an important role overseeing so much of what the church's ministry goes towards, so much of the resources of the church.

If they are, you know, a mid-manager, they're just not going to have a, they need that seat at the table to move things forward, to have the ear of the lead pastor, and to be able to champion those things.

So that's probably the thing that I've seen churches struggle with, where, you know, those different teams are reporting to different people, and then that person's not sitting at the executive level.

So that'd be my encouragement for churches to consider restructuring things if you aren't currently in that position.

Yes, so much of the church's voice, because so much of the weekend experience is where a lot of that drives from, comes from these departments when they're operating together in sync.

And so, you know, spot on there with that feedback.

As I've spent a lot of my life as the mid-manager of these departments operating that way, and I can personally testify, it is a struggle.

If only to make sure that the decision-makers actually understand what is being decided on.

So, great wisdom there from Ben Stapley, Canadian American.

So, hey, Ben, thanks for jumping on the show here, talking about Christmas on Thanksgiving week.

Hope you all survive the upcoming month or so, and definitely looking forward to an incredible 2023.

So, we're going to land the plane here with the podcast.

This is for Ben.

This is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network.

Thanks for jumping on the pod here.

We'll see you next time on the show.

Y'all have a good day.