EP251 - Brad Brisco, Digital Ecclesiology & Deconstructing Church

Sometimes people just freak out when they hear deconstruction, and they think that absolutely

you're deconstructing your faith. And that's not the case. I think in maybe not the vast

majority of conversations, but I'd say at least half the conversations I have with people that

are going through some sort of deconstruction, they're deconstructing the form and function of

the church. They're not deconstructing their faith. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible

digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church

operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big

or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help

churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically.

Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will

revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church

Digital, co-founder, Digital Church Network. And I have been wanting to have this conversation,

to do this podcast for maybe close to a year. I met this guest close to a year ago. He probably

doesn't even remember meeting me. But it was a great time. We were hanging out at Exponential Ventures.

I want to say that was probably the Houston or San Antonio one. And I had the honor of being on a panel

or something and sitting next to Brad Briscoe for a couple days. And I just was like, man, I really,

I really like the way that this guy talks and thanks. I really want to talk to him and dig more. And just the event was so

hectic and I didn't get a chance to follow up with him. And then I followed him on Twitter.

And by the way, if you're looking for like the, and I told Brad this just off air. It's like, Brad, you're like one of my favorite Twitter followers.

Like I would put you in the top five, maybe top three towards that, just because there's so much,

so much wisdom, you know, these pearls that get dropped to talking about church and this new season

and bivocational and a lot of this we're going to get into in the podcast. And every time I see some of these come up,

like I make a mental note, I got to, I got to follow up. I got to, I got to DM Brad.

I got to get back with Brad. And, uh, you know, it never, it never actually happened till now.

And so we're finally actually having the conversation. And so Brad Briscoe,

director of bivocational church planting for North American mission board. Thanks for jumping on,

on the podcast. Well, Jeff, thanks for being consistent and, uh, uh, getting a connection.

And, and actually it was in Austin. I know you went to a whole bunch of those meetings,

but I think the one that we were at together was in, I think it was in Austin.

You are right. It was, it was at, uh, it was, it was very, very cool. Yeah. That was totally my fault.

That was, what church were we at? That's, that's a conversation for another day. I don't, I don't remember,

but, but yeah, that was a good time. So yeah. And I'm looking forward to this.

Totally. And completely. Thank you. Thanks for jumping on here, Brad. Now, right off the bat,

um, I want to totally get into bivo and I want to get into deconstructing church. Cause, cause that's been a lot of

some of our conversations on Twitter. Um, but I just, I want to call something out here. Cause this is,

this is interesting. People who, who, who are active in digital ministry, uh, digital church planting,

um, know that, you know, North American mission board, Southern Baptist convention,

they're not always supportive of the digital ministry stuff. You know, I've, I've, I could probably tell

some, some, some stories that actually shed, you know, not good light of them not being too excited

about the idea of, uh, digital ministry and, and some of this really just trying to, to get back

to the physical building. Um, are you just thinking so far out of the box with your Bible stuff that,

that, that, that like that supplements or goes beyond like, what's your, what's your feedback or

thoughts or what, what have you been, uh, reading even as you've been looking at the scenario?

What is digital ministry, digital discipleship, uh, doing churches in digital space? What does that

mean to you? Well, I think, um, I say all the time, we are all living in a rapidly increasing

missionary context. So we absolutely have to think outside the box. And I think sometimes if we've had

some quote unquote success in the way we've planted churches historically, it just, uh, we're just not

forced to think outside the box. And I think sometimes that's, that could be the case with the

Southern Baptist convention is that we've planted churches for a long time. We've been very successful

at it, but I do think the context is radically, radically different than it used to be both inside

the church and outside the church. So we have to think completely different. And I just think though,

there are some networks and some denominations that haven't been forced to do that yet. And I think

the digital space is one of those that, you know, we said before we got on air that I'm not surprised

that you haven't found a lot of reception within kind of the SBC culture. Um, but it's unfortunate

because it's, it's here, you know, it's just like with Bible Kobo. I say all the time that co-vocational

church planning, I'm convinced is the single best missiological and financial strategy for planting a

church. Uh, but we, we haven't in most networks or denominations, we haven't been forced to go there

yet. Uh, but I would argue we're there. It's not just the future of church planting, it's the present.

So, uh, I just think sometimes, you know, creativity and innovation, uh, until we're forced to,

to go there, we, we don't go there, uh, on our own, uh, often, unfortunately.

Yeah. That's, that's interesting. You know, some of the larger, the larger an organization gets,

the more unwieldy it is and, and, and exploring different things and, and, and shaking the boat.

And so that, that's, that's interesting. I've known, you know, like I've worked with, with SBC churches.

And so it's not always, you know, the, everyone has that idea, but, um, uh, definitely options to,

to explore. Well, hey, well, hey, let's do this. Let's just go ahead and, and dig in because I'm

really excited about this first question. So like, I was funny, I was sitting at Thanksgiving. I'll set

it up this way. I was sitting at Thanksgiving table. I, I just, I had just published, uh, the book.

I'll even hold it up for the YouTube audience. Uh, VR in the metaverse church had just had this

published through, through leadership network. And so I'm sitting at Thanksgiving table with my in-laws,

uh, and telling them about this, uh, this book. And, uh, and so some of them were kind of looking at

me side-eyed kind of like, not really sure about this whole virtual reality thing. And I, and I said,

you know what I said, to be honest, like, like the, the spirituality, like the Jesus stuff, like I'm

not, I'm not deconstructing Christ. I'm deconstructing the church. I'm deconstructing what that opportunity

looks like thinking, Oh, this is the solid answer. This is perfect. This is going to appease everyone.

It didn't. It actually started a hailstorm, hell fire, brimstone falling from the sky,

the earth split open. And actually like there was a war at the idea of, of deconstructing church.

Now I know from following you on Twitter, like there, the idea of deconstructing church isn't,

I would say, I don't look, maybe I'm reading into you, but I don't think you think that's a,

that's a bad thing. Talk to me a little bit here. I would love your take. Deconstructing church,

deconstructing Christ, deconstructing God, like what, what are the, what are the perils? What's

too far? What are the opportunities that we have? As you're doing bivocational ministry and beyond,

like what is this idea of deconstructing Christ via church via deconstructing Christ?

Well, that's a, there's a lot there. I mean, you know that already, Jeff, but I think,

I do think that it's, it's important to recognize, you know, we hear the language of deconstruction or

deconstructing thrown around all the time and people always see it as a bad thing. And I don't

necessarily see it as a bad thing, especially if it's deconstructing the practices or the form and

function of church rather than deconstructing faith. Cause there's a lot of issues as it relates to

deconstruct a person's faith that if they're not reconstructing, uh, that, that can be a very

problematic thing. But, but I'll admit even where I am in the way I understand co-vocational church

planting, it all started, you know, a decade ago, probably more like 15 years ago with me in a sense,

deconstructing my understanding of the practices of church. It was, so I would say it was almost

like a missiological deconstruction that I started to recognize that way we were so Sunday centric and

we were, the way we were so focused on Sunday morning worship services, uh, that I, I needed to

kind of deconstruct that and under, so that's influenced the way I think about church planting.

You know, there's a little phrase I use all the time. I'll say, we need to help church planters

think less like a pastor starting the Sunday morning worship service and more like a missionary engaging

a context. So we have to start with missionary behaviors and activities and get to the Sunday

morning worship service. So for me, there's, there was deconstructing that had to take place

there. I had to see that the Sunday gathering isn't church, you know, it's, it's not a building,

uh, where certain things happen. So I think it's helpful because sometimes people just freak out

when they hear deconstruction and they think that absolutely you're deconstructing your faith. And

that's not the case. I think in maybe not the vast majority of conversations, but I'd say at least

half the conversations I have with people that are going through some sort of deconstruction,

they're deconstructing the form and function of the church. They're not deconstructing their faith.

And in some cases they're actually walking closer. This is going to sound crazy, but they're actually

walking closer to Jesus as they're deconstructing some of the activities of church. So it's actually

a personal journey for them. And it's, it's a serious thing. It's not just some crazy, uh, craze,

but they're, they're actually on an honest journey of growth as they're recognizing, you know, what,

what's at the core of their, of their faith and, and how much of that is, is church centric and how

much is of actually Jesus centric. So I think if that's the kind of deconstruction we're talking

about, I think it's actually a very healthy thing.

Yeah. So if, if we're deconstructing the, the activities, you know, re-imagining what that,

that is, you know, when I, when I talk about digital church, we talk about how we're re-imagining

what the Bible calls the church to be. We're remapping Acts 2, 36 to 47, Acts 8, Acts 16.

We're remapping that on digital, digital functions. Like how do these platforms operate? What are,

how can we do this? What does this, this look like? But if we're holding true to the biblical context,

then, you know, what I'm hearing from you is re-imagining, re-interpreting some, some re-interpreting

may be the bad word, re-imagining what it could be, but grounded with that biblical ecclesiology,

like that's, that's the right step for us to, to, to re-imagine this stuff.

Yeah. And you know, something, it's funny, you mentioned Twitter. It just reminded me the last

couple of days, a couple of things I've just been sharing on Twitter in light of some things that

I've been reading and rereading is I think one of the issues we have in North American culture,

church context or church culture. One of the greatest problems is, is reductionism. And, you know,

and I, I tweeted and said, we, we like to make great things small. So I think there's lots of

different areas of church that we've reduced it down to like the bare minimum. And I think it's

really, this is something I tweeted just this morning. I think we have to be reminded that both

the historic and global church is, and was amazingly diverse and vast and beautiful. So when we do that,

when we start to recognize just the diversity of church around the world and throughout history,

we ought to just kind of lighten up a little bit on the way we personally define church.

And I think just as you've been talking about with the digital space, it, it ought to create that

space. I mean, it ought to create, at least in our minds or crack open our imagination to say,

well, wait a minute, maybe church is more than the hour we spend on Sunday morning in this building.

And of course we know that it's way more than that, but I just think one practical step is just to be

reminded of just the diversity around the world and throughout history.

Well, as we're looking at re-imagining, as we're looking at deconstructing the church,

you know, your, your interpretation. And one of the things that you, you've worked with is,

is this idea of, of bivocational and, and co-vocational ministry. Now it's interesting.

I've had conversations with people and there's been some, some confusion. And even I've heard so many

different ideas about what bivocational is and what co-vocational is and, and the differences between

those. So, you know, I would love your take on that. Like what's the difference between bivocational and

co-vocational ministry?

Yeah. So let me back up just a little bit to lay, give a little bit of a kind of foundation

for the way that I like to define those two words and a little bit of a nuance for me is that when

I first moved into the role of North American Mission Board several years ago, this director of

bivocational church planning, I knew one of the things I wanted to do, at least within our context

or within our network is I wanted to help try to change what I would call the biased narrative that

we have around bivocationalism. And what I mean by biased narratives is if you'll ask people what

comes to mind when you hear the word bivocational, or if you ask them, what do you think comes to mind

of people in the church? When you may hear the word bivocational, it's almost always negative.

It's like part-time, you know, they can't give their full attention. They split their time between this

and that. I mean, it's just always, it's just always negative. And I don't think that's good.

I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's biblical. So I felt like one of the things,

one of the ways we could begin to change that narrative is that we needed to first off talk

about the amazing benefits of being bivocational, the missiological benefits. I think there are some

amazing financial benefits of being bivocational. But the third thing is I felt like we needed to expand

the language. So not necessarily change the language, but we needed to bring in some additional language

to kind of crack open our imagination. So we started playing around with different words. And we,

a few years ago, we landed on this word co-vocational. So here's, here's the reason why I think this is

helpful and necessary is first off, go back to the word bivo or bivocational. I'll often say,

have you ever heard the word bifurcate? So to bifurcate means to take one thing and divide it

into two parts. And I think that's what we do, unfortunately, when we hear the word bivocational

is we compartmentalize or we bifurcate mission over here with work or ministry and work. So often I'll

hear church leaders that are bivocational say, well, I do my job over here so I can do mission and

ministry over here. And I don't think that's helpful. That's the, that's dualism. That's,

that's, you know, there's a sacred secular divide there that says some work is more important than

other works or some work is more sacred than other work. So to overcome that, like I said,

we started playing around with this word co-vocational and think of that word for a minute.

Think of co-vocational. So co-co comes from the Latin prefix com, c-o-m, which means to have in

common. So think of words like co-laborer, co-pilot, co-author that we're, we're trying to align

two things together. So, um, I still use both bivocational and co-fogational, but to get to

your question, here's a little nuance for me is a bivocational pastor, or really most of the time

I'm talking to church planters. So also a bivocational church planter is someone who has

a part-time job in the marketplace that they see as temporary. So their hope is that the church will

grow to the point to where they can leave their part-time job and focus full-time on the church

plan. Well, a co-vocational church planter, and this is where it, we're really expanding the language

here is a co-vocational church planter is someone that has a primary call in the marketplace that they

never intend to leave. So in other words, they know that God has called them to be an architect or an

engineer or a school teacher or a mechanic. And at the same time, they feel like God's called them to

start something. So they have this full-time calling in the marketplace, but they feel like

God's calling them to start something. And, and in the past, they felt like they had to choose. It's

like, well, I've got to choose either this calling in the marketplace or being a pastor or a church

planter. And I want to say to them, no, you don't have to choose. Let's figure out though, how can you

start something while you have a full-time gig in the marketplace? And man, there are so many

beautiful implications to this. I think generation, generation, generation, general, with today's

generation, generationally that, you know, it's just normal to have more than one like side hustle

or, you know, um, so it's, it's not unusual or out of, out of place for someone to think that,

oh yeah, I have, I have two jobs or I have three jobs. Um, so then here's the last thing I'll say.

And then however, wherever you want to go with this, Jeff is I hope that as we talk about the

benefits of being bivocational, that we'll actually have more and more bivocational church planters in

a sense become co-vocational. And what I mean by that is even when the church grows large enough

that they could leave their part-time job and focus full-time on the, on the church,

they stay because they just realize there's just too many missiological benefits and there's too

many financial benefits for them to stay in the marketplace. And again, I just think this is so

important today more than ever before because we are living in an increasing missionary context and

more and more people are less and less interested in the programs and activities of the church.

So we have to go where people are. And I think one of the best places to go

is in the marketplace. So I don't, I hope that's helpful. Just a little nuance between

bivo and covo. Like I said, I still think, you know, one's not better than the other,

but I just think we have tens of thousands of people sitting in our churches throughout North America

that didn't know it was an option. They, they felt like if God called them in the marketplace,

they couldn't start something. And I want to say, no, you can, you can do both,

but we have to think about it differently. You know, I, I spent years, uh, in the early 2000s,

early mid 2000s, angry at God because I was not employed at a church. Like for me, uh, and,

and coming out of college, my, my twenties, um, I, you know, I felt like God was leading me to do

ministry. And, and in my mind, I had reconciled that to mean that I was working on a church staff.

And it's, it's, it's interesting to me, you know, I've, I've had Ray, Ray, uh, Ray Rayley,

wrong name, uh, Ray D'Armas. He used to be the, um, co-host of this podcast with me here.

He, he was a digital pastor, stepped out of ministry, actually went back to school to work

on, on a medical technician's degree, a medical assistant. I don't know his actual, uh, title,

but like, he's, he's engaging completely in, in the secular workplace. And he tells me things he's,

he's like, Jeff, um, I talked to 10 times more lost people daily than, than I would really connect

with while working at, at, at a church monthly. Right.

Like the, the exposure, uh, to actual ministry. I had an assistant who used to work for me when it was,

when I was working for, at a, at a church in Austin. And, uh, and, and she told me she,

she quit her job after about four months. She's like, this is not what I thought working

for a church would actually be. I was like, what'd you think? And she was describing,

you know, all the, the ministry and living missionally and engaging and having conversations

and witnessing. And, and, and I was like, unfortunately, as the assistant to the creative

department, that's not the life that you're going to live in nine to five. But if you, if that's what

you really want, you need to go do that and not work here anymore. And she quit her job to go

do that. And so it's, it's interesting to me how now, you know, there is a reemergence of this

bivocational of this co-vocational doing ministry with the job, engaging, you know, even to your

point, I don't, I, I, my church can afford to pay me, but there's a ministry opportunity working in

this job outside the church. I should go there and instead of taking it easy, taking that, that church

check. Um, like, do you see this active in, you know, and I know you work mostly with planters,

do people outside the established church, the, the planting church, like physical churches,

established churches, um, generational churches, like, do they think this way or is, is, is there

a struggle for them to maybe recognize some of this opportunity?

Yeah. So again, that's an enormous question with lots of different facets to it. First off,

I would say we need to recognize or just be reminded of that, uh, this isn't anything new,

uh, for, for most of the church around the world and in almost every diverse culture or, or ethnic

diverse culture that it's always been bivocational or co-vocation. I mean, you know, uh, with an

African-American community, Hispanic community, so many different communities, uh, it's, you know,

they've always started churches and pastor churches as bivocational, co-vocational, or jokingly,

sometimes they'll say tri-vocational leaders. Primarily this resurgence of this co-vocational

language, the, the reality is it's primarily within suburban American, I would say church growth

movement influenced churches where we felt like the pastor had to be fully funded, had to be,

uh, you know, professionalized that we really professionalized ministry. So there's that whole

thing is we have to recognize that around the world it's, it's almost always been bivocational

and, and we need to learn from them. But then to go back to your original question about, uh,

kind of the existing church, what I've seen in the midst of COVID is there's a huge number of leaders

that were forced to be bivocational and they kind of went into a, you know, hollering, screaming and

hollering that they didn't want to do it. It was out of necessity, not out of choice,

but some of them have recognized once they went in to being bivocational, they started to recognize

the benefits. I mean, I have the privilege to interview dozens and dozens and dozens of co-vocational,

bivocational, co-vocational leaders. And I have these kind of the same eight questions I like to ask.

And the very first question I always ask is share with me two benefits that you've discovered of

being bivocational or co-vocational. And this is no exaggeration. Every single time, bar none,

every single time, the very first benefit was always, uh, this missiological benefit of, uh,

be, you know, having access to a mission field they wouldn't have otherwise. Now people use different

language, but it's just what you said, Jeff. They just said, man, I've got so many relational

connections that I never would have had before. These people would never come to our, the programs

and activities of the church, but I'm getting to know them because of my job in the marketplace.

So, you know, and I hope as we begin to like change this bias narrative, as more and more leaders have

to become bivocational, they won't see it as a demotion. They won't see it as a downgrade, but

they'll, they'll see the benefits of it. But then the other thing that I would say is I encourage

leaders in existing churches all the time to go out and get a part-time job. And I'll say, look,

I don't care if you, if you don't need the, if you need the money or not, just one, at least one day

a week, find some part-time thing you can do in the marketplace because it'll open up your eyes to,

to the things that people really go through Monday through Friday. It'll give you great street cred

or respectability inside the church because people in the church will know you'll, you'll begin to

understand what they're going through, but it'll also give you great respectability or street cred

outside the church. So when you start to meet people that have no church connection, instead of

leading with, oh, I'm a pastor, I'm a church planter, you initially, at least you can lead

with what you do in the marketplace. So I think that's another missiological benefit. So, so yeah,

I do think, um, as this whole conversation, especially as I said earlier, kind of this American

church growth mentality influence type of church, as this conversation about Bible Covo is

becoming more commonplace. Uh, I do see leaders in existing churches begin to recognize the benefits,

the missiological benefits, the financial benefits and, and other benefits. I mean, they don't have to be

dependent on the giving from the church. So I've even heard some leaders say it's actually giving them

freedom in their, their voice, especially if it's a prophetic voice to say, they don't have to worry

about like, if they make somebody mad, that's the big giver, or there's just lots of little benefits

there. I think that, um, uh, it's just, again, it's just a great, great way. I think that think

about leading the church in a missionary context. Are you seeing, uh, like a person, especially on the,

on the planting side, have you seen an increase of this? You know, the economy's been rough. Uh,

people are walking out of, out of the church ministry in digital space. I've seen a lot of

people, um, leave established churches to start to plant their own digital churches and, and take a

bi-vocational approach because digitally the, the monies, the digital churches typically don't have the,

the funding vehicles that some of the established are. And so like, I, I see 75, 85% of the churches

we're planting in digital space are, are bi-vocational or not even really funded well from like parent

organizations and denominations. Have you seen a trend in recent months towards more bi-vocational

planting? Well, um, yeah, I don't have stats for this in the last couple of years, but at least

anecdotally, absolutely. I mean, I, I have more and more conversations than ever before with, uh, church

leaders and church planters, uh, that they are, they're, they're almost all bi-vocavo. Uh, and some

cases, like you said, digital space, sometimes it's just that they're doing more of a neighborhood, uh,

kind of smaller expression of church, microchurch, missional community, whatever language. But the

other thing that I'll say, and I think this, this is helpful is I'll say, when you think of bi-vocavo,

don't think model, but think strategy that, that, and I know I've said this several times already,

but I think it is a missiological and financial strategy. It's not a model. And what I mean by

that is a lot of times when people hear bi-vocational planting or co-vocational planting, they think of

house church or, or microchurch. And yes, it can be that, but it doesn't have to be that. I know

churches that are very large. I mean, hundreds of people and all the staff are bi-vocational it's

because the very first church planter was bi-vocational or co-vocational. And as the church

grew where he couldn't have left his part-time job and focused full-time on the church, he didn't,

or they didn't instead they hire, they hired other bi-vocational leaders. So like all eight or 10 or 12

staff are all bi-vocational. So, but yes, I think it's without a doubt, there's more and more part

of it's COVID part of it's the economy. And part of it's just people are wanting to have more

incarnational, smaller expressions, like, you know, planted in their neighborhood. Rather, there was a

time where in kind of the church growth mentality, it was about, you know, starting a launch large

regional type of church. And I just think there's a, there's a movement towards smaller expressions.

I've, uh, you know, I've seen you and Twitter talk about, you know, I think it was, I think you've

used the phrase deprofessionalize ministry. You know, I know we had Leonard Sweet on here maybe a month

ago and I asked him a question on, on, on, um, bivo-covo and, and, and, and he reacted, um, I don't,

I don't want to say it was aggressively, but he reacted with more energy towards that question.

And any of the other questions I talked about, you know, really towards Jeff, we, we shouldn't use

the language bivo-covo. When he said, I was like, wait, you're, you're against bivo-covo. He's like,

no, no, no, we're all bivo. We, we, everyone is, is, is bivo. There shouldn't even be, he used,

it was so interesting. He said, um, it's going to become increasingly difficult for pastors to make

money off of the church. Um, and that opened up, you know, just a series of questions. We weren't able,

to get into, but what a profound thought kind of moving forward, which, which really speaks to this

idea of, of deprofessionalized. Maybe you want to speak to that a little bit. Some of the, some of

the challenges we will be facing, some of the opportunities, uh, to move away from that mindset

towards a, towards a bivocational approach. Well, we mentioned earlier, I use the phrase

sacred-secular divide that I think we need to diminish or blow up the sacred-secular divide as

relates to vocation. But the second thing that we need to blow up is the clergy-lady divide.

So yes, I think that the, the chasm that we created throughout church history, especially,

especially, you know, Constantine and Constantinian model of church, that we created this huge chasm

between the clergy and the laos. And it's funny, laos, the Greek word actually means people of God.

So I think we do, we need to diminish that. So sometimes when I say deprofessionalize,

that's all I mean, is that we need to, we need to diminish that, that divide between clergy and

laity. And it's funny, that reminds me of, of kind of a famous, let's see if I can remember it right,

um, Leslie Newbigin, he was, he was, um, accused of, of trying to eliminate the clergy.

And, and there's this great quote, he says, oh no, I'm not trying to eliminate the clergy,

I'm trying to eliminate the laity. So I just think, I think that's beautiful. Yeah. Like it's like,

and I think maybe that's what Lynn Sweet was trying to get at is that, no, when we talk about

diminishing the chasm between clergy and laity, let's raise up the laity. I mean, like when,

if we really believe in the priesthood of all believers, then we want to equip and activate

and empower all the people of God. And that's a phrase I say all the time too. I'll say like,

if I'm writing it, I'll say all, and I'll put, you know, the word all A L L in all caps and say,

we need to activate all the people of God, not just the paid professionals, but everybody. Um,

and I think it's great. I think this comes from underground church. I think you've,

you've interviewed Brian Sanders before, but I, in his book, underground church, I remember he's got a,

a sentence there that I love. He says, no strategy will ever reach every kind of people,

except the strategy that mobilizes every kind of people. So it's, again, it speaks to the priesthood

of all believers that we, we have to activate all the people of God, if we're really going to engage,

uh, in God's mission. Okay. So, so help me with this. Let me pull the thread. Um,

you know, the church that, that I, the church that I most recently worked for, um, when I,

when I resigned in 2018, the senior pastor literally had three different doctorates and would, um,

would spend, uh, I don't know, 30, 35 hours a week crafting his one hour sermon. Um, and so very well

educated, very well resourced of, of time. And now we're describing not exposure towards that

mentality, but more of, of a bivocational where I've got another job nine to five. So I'm not crafting

this eloquent message. I don't have massive seminary degrees, or maybe, maybe I do like,

how do we even educate, uh, a, a bivocational, a co-vocational movement is, do we hold them to the

same standards? What does this look like? Yeah, that's a great question too. Well,

there's a couple of things. First off, I think we need to have this conversation very early on

within the church. So absolutely we need to be having this conversation in collegiate ministries,

but I would say we need to even be having this in the conversation like youth ministries of the church

is helping, helping young people understand that if they feel like God's called them to be an

engineer, they should go be the best engineer they possibly can for the glory of God. And at the same

time, help them think about starting something. So we need to help them know early on, they hope,

they don't have to decide between mission and work or vocation that there, there ought to be an

alignment there. So I think that's a huge thing. Secondly is ultimately this whole co-vocational

discussion or conversation is going to change the way we think about theological education.

So I think first off it, well, there's two parts of that. I think the content of our theological

education and the delivery of the theological education is going to change. What I mean by the,

especially the delivery is I think ultimately, and I know this is a big thing, you know, this,

this isn't going to happen overnight, but I think everyone would agree that the best place for

theological education to take place is in the local church. And I think that's, I think that's a

movement that's going to take a long time, but we need to move towards that where theological education

is taking place in the church. So we can be raising up more and more leaders to start things.

I mean, it's just crazy. And I have two seminary degrees, so I'm not, I'm not anti-theological

education. That's for sure. But it's just doesn't make any sense to root somebody up from the place

where they live and go somewhere else for, for three or four or five years to earn a degree

that today, there's no way they're going to go get a job in a church to pay for the debt.

I mean, none, it just doesn't make sense. All of that. So I think, um, the, the delivery of our

theological education is going to change. And I am grateful right now that all the seminaries

across the country have, you know, 100% online degrees. So I think that's really helpful.

Um, but I think even the content is that, you know, I think it's unfortunate that there's very

few seminaries that teach a theology of work. Uh, there's very few seminaries or colleges or

universities that help, uh, someone that, that wants to be engaged in mission and ministry,

think about a trade or, you know, some other skill that, that, that they could access. Um,

because I think right now we're kind of in an in-between time where there are lots of leaders

in a church, you know, they'll say, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm open to being bivocational, but I have no

other skill. Like there's nowhere for me to go. And that's got to change. So I think we're kind of

in this in-between time that if we have this conversation earlier on, as I mentioned, then we're going

to have more and more leaders that, that have a calling in the marketplace and they can start

something. So, um, man, there's just a huge, I mean, theological education there is a, is an enormous

conversation around all of this. And then I think the other thing too, Jeff, go back to your comment

about, you know, someone spending 30 or 40 hours a week, you know, on an hour message. I think

anyone that's involved in church planning understands you need to plant with a team,

but if you're bivocational or co-vocational, there is absolutely no other option. I mean,

you have to do this with a team and I'm a big proponent of APAS, Ephesians four, and I know

you're familiar with APAS, apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher. I think that's a really helpful

way to think about a church planting team is to, to create a team around giftings, not just ministry

categories, but around giftings. And if we do that, uh, then we, we can plant churches bivocational or

co-vocationally much easier because then we don't have to do it all. We just focus on the lane where

we're gifted. If that makes sense. Totally and completely. It's, it's funny. Just, uh, just

yesterday I was talking to a digital church planter in Nigeria. Uh, he's, he's starting out and, um, you

know, challenged him to, to build that team around him and start, it was funny. He, he's like, he literally

he's, he's like, Jeff, I'm, I'm confused. Am I supposed to start by, you know, evangelizing and

recruiting my team off of people that are coming to Christ? Or am I supposed to, you know, go to my

friends and recruit from my friends and then challenge them to step into ministry? Um, and, you know,

basically I said to him, I was like, well, if you can't, if you can't convince your friends to follow

you in the ministry, then I don't think you're going to be able to convince strangers to follow

you in the ministry. And he's like, oh, that's good. But a pest is, is such a great, um, model

towards that. And so, you know, love digging into that and even trying to figure out, you know,

some of the stuff with digital church network, we're trying to figure out how to, what a pest

looks like. Um, you know, even in virtual reality, what a pest looks like in digital, what a pest

looks like. I had a conversation with, uh, Mark Lutz, uh, with some stuff we're doing

with the podcast, but what is, uh, what does a pest look like in the gaming community?

Well, you're going to do a pest in gaming. Yeah. Let's, let's figure it out. Mark's fourfold.

I'm more fivefold. We'll fight about it at some point and come to a conclusion. I'm sure.

So let me, let me ask, um, uh, where do I want to go? So, so, so many options. So we're

talking a lot about education. Um, and, and, and I think that's good. It's, it's interesting.

I've been, I think that's good. That's a weird kind of statement. I think education is a good

thing. Uh, hopefully nobody like pulls that out as a soundbite. Um, here's, here's the deal. Like

I'll talk about priesthood of all believers and I'll, I'll have, I'll have churches reply to me.

Hey, Jeff, I don't know why you're making such a big deal about priesthood of all believers.

We've been doing this for, for decades. Um, and then I'll talk to churches about priesthood of all

believers and I'll get, it's gotta be done by a certain person in a certain way, in a certain

process. Um, you know, and, and, and I'm not going to call attention that some of those more aggressive

against priesthood happen to be Southern Baptist churches. Set that aside. We can, can nuance that

later, but maybe for, for you, for me, um, what's the, what's the biblical grounding in priesthood of

all believers? You know, you, you've, you've got, you know, a pass as a thing and you've got the,

the tribes and we can get into it. I'm not looking for like the, the, the full thesis here, but, um,

if, if I'm trying to help a church or a leader or a pastor understand the opportunities of priesthood,

what's the biblical foundation that, that I should be building on?

Well, yeah, that's a great question. Well, I do think, and we've already talked about it,

so we don't, we don't need to go there. I do think a pass is, is a big piece there because those

five gifts in Ephesians four are giftings. Unfortunately, historically, we've interpreted

them as offices, um, or roles. And, and we've interpreted that text as a leadership text.

Like those are gifts given to a leader so they can equip the work, uh, the saints for the work

of ministry. And it's not a leadership text. It's a body text. So I think that's a really good place

to start is to say those gifts are given to the body. So we, the saints of the body, the body of Jesus,

so we can equip the saints for the work of ministry. So I think that's a huge piece.

I think also, I mean, if someone really wanted to go down like the rabbit hole of the whole priesthood

of the old Testament, um, you know, uh, first Peter chapter two, when Peter says we're a chosen

generation, Royal priesthood, Holy nation, special people, you know, that's us. So there,

there was a movement in the new Testament, I would argue from priest to saint. So, uh, and,

and then I think also anyone who's really interested in digging into this is to go back to Luther's

writing, the Protestant reformation. And, you know, I mean, for, for Luther, the Protestant

reformation was really about justification by faith, of course. And, and the priesthood of all

believers is that all of us had access to the father, but, and, and because now Jesus is the high

priest. Right. But Luther also made a real distinction. The implic, one of the implications

of, we all have access to the father is that now we are all priests or saints. Um, and there was no

distinction between religious and secular, um, except for the sake of office or work was a little phrase

that Luther used all the time. So he'd say that really we're in a sense, we're all priests or

bishops or popes. He would, he said, so I think, um, yeah, so I think APAS, uh, understanding those

are gifts, not roles and offices. I think constantly thinking about how can we diminish this clergy laity

divide? I think how can we be thinking about, uh, you know, the move from priests to saints. And I think

moving to, uh, just the activation of, of, of everybody. Um, and, and I don't know. And I think

Jeff, I haven't really processed this, but I do think when we make church about the Sunday morning

worship service, and I'm not anti-gathering, I mean, we are a gathered worshiping community,

so I'm not anti-gathering, but when, but throughout the church, well, I would say throughout kind of

this Constantinian understanding of church, and then you add to that church growth movement mentality

from 50 years ago, uh, we made church about the Sunday morning worship service. Well, when we did,

we, we, we very much professionalized the activities around that Sunday gathering, which,

which was primary preaching and then worship leading, like any other programs or activities

around the Sunday gathering. And we minimized everything that took place outside that Sunday

gathering. So I think when we think about activating all the people of God or the saints of God to engage

in mission, we're, we're talking about mission outside the walls of the church. I mean, we're talking

about mission in the marketplace and in our neighborhoods and in social spaces. So I think that's where

as a church in North America, again, in an increasing missionary context, we just have to do a better

job. We have to activate all the people of God to engage in God's mission outside the walls of the

church. And that absolutely would include digital space. Um, and you don't have to have a four-year

seminary degree or eight years of seminary degree, uh, to do that. Um, that wasn't the case in the early

church. Um, and it absolutely isn't the case in the predominant church around the global world. I mean,

it's just churches are not led by professional clergy, um, around the world, uh, primarily.

Well, let me ask because, you know, as, as we're wrapping up here, um, there's, you know,

you've got a lot of people, or at least I have a lot of people that are now having to think

bivocational when they've never thought that way. You know, even I, as I've, I've started digital

church network, which I consider a bivocational ministry, like, no, we're not, I'm not making a

living off it. And so, um, you know, having to recruit leaders and, and, and guys, we're not having a ton

of money coming in and, and I'm not going to charge a bunch of money for people that are living bivocational

lives. Like we need to figure out how to do this without money being the, the, the activity for it.

Uh, and so at least in my own life, I have a bunch of people that are living bivocationally that

aren't, that aren't used to it. What are, what are some resources? What are some knowledge books,

blogs, podcasts, people, you know, like you, uh, that, that are helping kind of cast vision direction

towards, uh, understanding the, the bivocational model more? Do you have any examples or people

we can connect with?

Yeah. So I'll give you a couple examples, uh, or a couple ideas. One, um, and it's easy for me to

promote this because it's free, but I wrote a book a couple of years ago called co-vocational church

planting. And, and it's actually a free digital download. Now you can buy a hard copy on Amazon,

but if you just Google co-vocational church planting, uh, it'll take you to a website where you can

download it in both English and, um, and Spanish for free. Um, also there is, um, um, oh, and then

another, I tell you a book that just came out a couple months ago, and I just think he's done an

absolutely fantastic job with it. It's called the future is bivocational and it's by, um,

Andrew Hamilton. And I just think Andrew, man, he just, uh, he's just done a fantastic job, uh, with

the book. So that would be another, uh, thing I would recommend. Also, um, there is a ministry by

that was created just a few months ago. I'm going to find it here for you real quick. Eric Hoke,

which is H O K E. He started, uh, fantastic ministry called I help pastors get jobs. So again,

I think if you just Googled, I help pastors get jobs. Uh, Eric has done an incredible job of putting

together just a whole slew of services and resources to help pastors move into that bivocational and

co-vocational space. Uh, super helpful. Um, interesting. Yeah. And then, uh, Galanos, um,

and if I could find, there's also, I mean, Chris Galanos has, uh, a website and I would follow,

oh, his website is tentmakingpastors.com. Very similar to some of the stuff there,

although they're doing different things that Eric is doing also provide some great resources to help

pastors. Um, cause like you said, Eric, I mean, the difficult thing here, we already alluded to this

a little bit, um, is I think this is going to change over time because we're, we're going to have

a younger generation that they, they don't see it as odd as having a side hustle or, you know,

a side gig, but, uh, we have leaders now more of the really boomers and maybe even some builders

that, uh, you know, just had one job their whole life. And, you know, they went to Bible college,

they went to seminary, they've been in a church this whole time. And now when they think about

being bivocational, it's very difficult because they just have a hard time thinking about, I don't

have any other skills. Uh, but I do think there's some helpful things there. One of the conversations

I'll lead people into sometimes is I'll say, think about time, money, and relational capital.

Well, here, what I mean by that is when you think about a job, especially as a church planter,

but when you think about a job, think about those three different arenas. Like is this job,

can you work this job in a short period of time? Like, could you, could you do this job in two days

or three days? So it can free you up for more time to focus on the church. Or could you do this job

and make a lot of money in a shorter period of time? Or does this job give you like great

relational capital? So kind of like jokingly, I'll say, if you're working in a office and let's say

you're working in a cubicle all by yourself from nine to five, that's probably not a very good job

to have. If you're a church planter, be like, you're working in it, you know, nine to five,

Monday through Friday, it's just you. But if you can do that job in three days to where you're off

Thursday and Friday, maybe it's not bad. Or let's say if you're working in a service industry and

you're not making a lot of money, but you're meeting 300 people a day, that might be a really

good job to have as a, you know, as a church planter. So I just think when you think about

jobs, rarely are we going to find one where you make a lot of money in a short period of time and

you meet lots of people, but, you know, kind of balance those three things. But, and then also,

like I said, if you look at one of those other ministries, both from Eric or from Chris,

they've got just some great blog posts and resources that can help, help leaders in existing

churches move more into that Vivo space.

Very cool. We'll put a bunch of, we'll put all those links in the show notes and we'll find them

in the background. But it's taking meticulous notes in the background during it. But hey, Brad,

thanks for jumping on the podcast. Love having this conversation.

Well, thank you, Jeff.

Yeah, we will, we'll put even Brad, follow him on Twitter and other information on the show notes as

well. So, but as we're landing the plane here, Brad, any closing thoughts?

Um, no, I would just say if, if you are a bivocational leader, the existing church,

church planter, don't hesitate to tell your story. Um, because people need to hear it. They need to

hear how are you making this work as a bivocational leader? And then I would say, if you're not a

bivocational leader, but you know, someone that is, please tell their story and tell their story to

be an encouragement to them, but also tell their story in the hopes that it would crack open the

imagination of other people. Cause I tell you, there are again, thousands of people sitting in our pews

and they don't know that they could be a school teacher and a church planter at the same time.

They just think it's gotta be one or the other. And I'm just convinced it doesn't have to be.

Very cool. So, uh, listen, I'm, I'm excited about the idea of bivocational ministry and the

opportunities that are there. And, uh, uh, so much of what I think the future is going to look like

for the, for the church is grounded in this idea of the priesthood of all believers. And so if you're,

if you're a church plant, you're definitely exploring that space. If you're a physical church,

um, you need to be exploring that space. Uh, so much of future ministry, uh, is going to be much

more possible when we release them, we mobilize them, even going back to the, the, uh, Tampa

underground quote from Brian's Brian Sanders that you can't, it's more about, about releasing those

people to, to reach the different contexts that are out there. And so that was so good, but Hey,

we're going to land a plane. So, so Brad, thanks for jumping on this podcast for, for, for Brad.

This is Jeff with the church digital and digital church network. Thanks for jumping on, on the pod

here. We'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.