EP262 - Exponential & The Gaming Church

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Well, hey, everybody, and welcome to the Digital Church Podcast. I'm Mark. Jeff Reed is unfortunately

not able to be with us. I thought you were saying I'm Mark. Jeff Reed.

Hi. I'm Mark. Jeff Reed. No, Jeff Reed is unable to be here. The normal host. Has anybody ever

hosted the Church Digital Podcast without Jeff? I have once. You did. I have once. And he did.

Yeah. And then everybody's favorite episode. Yeah. Yeah. It's the most played. Ooh. The most played

episode. It's the most played episode. Yeah. It's the most played. Perceptionist. Yeah. And so

we're here. Yeah. He just listens to it. It's at home on his server. But we're here because all of us are

currently at Exponential in Orlando. And we're hanging out. And Jeff is off networking, schmoozing.

Yeah. He might be napping. Yeah. He's like, I can't make it. I have a scheduled nap in the vendor hall

behind a table somewhere. So he's doing that. It's next year. You're not. You don't have gold status yet.

Yeah. Next year. So we're here. And we're just going to be talking about our experiences expo.

And because expo is like the resounding thing that I've heard in like every session I've been in and

everything is like this constant drive of like, this is the way we did it in the church. It's not

working. And so there's so much innovation. It's been everything from digital ministry to jujitsu

ministry to, you know, barbecue ministry, pressure washing pastors. Like there's a pressure washing

pastors here. Yeah. Yeah. Moving from pressure washing simulator into becoming a pastor who

pressure washes. Brewing or brewing pastors. And I was like, oh, that doesn't sound like a

pressure washing. We line up all the pastors. Yeah. So in all of that, like we're here. Got a lot of

innovators who are here in the room and on camera with us. So we're going to talk a little bit

about the amazing Airbnb that we're getting the chance to stay at together. It's really good.

It's fine. I guess you haven't stayed in enough Airbnb. You legit. Like when you, when you get an Airbnb

with cheese under the comforter, then you know you've arrived. Andy, Andy's sleeping on an air

mattress in a laundry room right now. Yeah, I'm right now sleeping in the laundry room. It's been great.

I could chew on the air. Yeah, it was that warm. Yeah, it was that warm. Yeah. It's an air mattress

that I brought from home. But yes, I do have a bed. Yeah, I brought it with me in pain to sleep in

here. Yeah, I have one of the shots with the secret room. A private room. Sleep's 10 if you count the

bathtub. Just please don't tell Bay Hope that this episode is airing as they sent you and we put you

on your own air mattress in the laundry room. So we're going to introduce everyone who's on the call or

if you're watching on YouTube on the video today. My name is Mark. I am the lead and founding pastor

of Lux Digital Church. And this next to me is Bubba, who is the CEO and founder of Love Thy Nerd,

which we'll talk about in a little bit. We've got Flat Cap Dapper Pastor, who's a physical church pastor,

but also doing a lot of experimenting and live streaming on Twitch and getting into that. We have

Jate from Jate Live, who is here with us. And if you listen to the podcast for any length of time,

you've already heard Jate on the podcast. It was on two weeks ago.

Actually, you're on one. Are you like the number one? It's like you or Tyler Sansom who's been on

the most probably. You were the first ever. Were you the first ever? You were close. I was on like

the sixth episode, I think. Number one. I don't know what the first. Episode six. I might have just

been Jeff. I was on the least played episode. We have Annie Mage from Bay Hope Church, but also

our director of on-demand ministries at Lux Digital Church. Matt from Love Thy Nerd, who's here with

us. And we have Zach, who's here from Storyland Studios, but also just a big part of planning and

the vision behind the Megazord Summit, which we talked about in this season specifically of the

Church Digital Podcast, because every person who's on, for the most part, so far, I think, was at

Megazord. And so, the whole spirit. Yeah. Well, Flat Cap's going to be on another episode,

and I don't know if that's going to be after this one. Okay. Yeah. So, it's true of the people who've

been on thus far on this season. So, but I want to give you guys each a chance just to share a little

bit about your heart and why you're on the Church Digital Podcast and why you are, you know, like,

why you're in the ministry and thing that you're in. And we'll start with Matt and Bubba first. And you

guys can each share a little bit about LTN. We'll go around. Yeah. So, Love Thy Nerd is amazing. Super

dope. We really love it. I agree. Yes. The thing that we are doing is good and pass on to the next

person, please. Yeah. I hate to be the guy who has to go after that. No. So, we're a ministry that

exists to be the love of Jesus to nerds and nerd culture. And we do that in a billion different ways.

But three major ways and avenues that we take are we take a relational approach to outreach and

evangelism. That we believe we have to earn the right to speak truth into someone's life. Not speak

truth at them. You don't have to earn that right. But to speak it actually into the life and have it

see change happen. We think you got to earn that right. And we don't just think it. We've kind of

seen that in our context to be true. We also have thoughtful content because we want to see people

actually engage with the content that they're consuming, both Christianly and critically.

And so, it's not just enough for you to watch the latest Marvel movie, but we want to have

legitimate conversations about that. We're not going to find the Jesus character in every single one of

those things. Because I don't think it's a one-to-one. And when you do that, it breaks down

immediately.

Certainly not in Star Wars episode nine. You're not going to find it there.

We don't connect the Bible to abomination.

Well, it's Spock. So, we do that. And then, I mean, we really have intentional community. Like

there's this word that we talk about all the time, Greek word koinonia, and it is intentional

fellowship. And that's really what we try to create as best as we're able to do online, in person,

in a million different spaces.

Yeah. We're looking for those shared experiences with people. Like being nerds and gamers,

it's super easy to sit down or sit down online or wherever it is and just be able to play a game,

share an experience, and then develop that real conversation, a real relationship with them.

And the whole reason we do any of that stuff is so that we can share the heaviest truth,

which is that Jesus loves you. And we want you to have the opportunity to come to know Jesus in the

same way that we do, knowing that people are not projects. They're absolutely people. And they may

never get there, but that doesn't mean that we stop. And so, we're able to do that. It's

transferable to any area, but we just happen to use nerd culture, being pop culture stuff,

you know, video games, board games, comic books, and movies. That's what we do.

Awesome. It was so great. We love it. Yeah.

Well, you know, one of the things that I really enjoy about Love Thy Nerd and Matt and Bubba is

they really do, in many ways, you can say we do these three things, but in so many other ways,

every one of those things is revolving around that shared experience, right? Everything is around

shared experience, which, shameless plug, if you're listening to this podcast, then you should also

know that there's a book out by Jeff Reed and Dr. John Harris called Sharing Jesus Online that talks

about the power of shared experiences in our culture and why gaming really, and the book isn't

about that, but in our context, why gaming is such a really powerful shared experience, I would say,

especially for men. I'm not saying that women don't game, but there's something about with men,

when we have something to do with our hands, that allows us to connect in a deep emotional and

relational way. LTN does that really well. Yeah. The statistics actually are that 48% of women

surveyed actually are gamers. So there's a rising, yeah, that is true. That is true. I don't know

the numbers, but that is true. There's a lot of female gamers. But yeah, but my point is, is that

for a lot of women, they're able to sit and just like catch up, right? And a lot of us as guys,

we need something to do with our hands in order to do that. LTN does that in spades really well.

And Dr. John and Jess's book talks literally about that. And it's on the website and you can search

for it on Amazon and it's an ebook and a physical book. So check it out. Flat cap, tell us a little

about what you're doing because physical charge pastor exploring in the digital space. And it's

kind of like, you're not a gamer, so, but you're in gaming space right now. So it's kind of new to

you. And, but you've been in it now for what, like a year? Have you been doing live streaming for

over a year? I haven't been doing live streaming for, well, I've been over a year. Yeah,

actually. Yeah. Okay. Probably a year and a half. Okay. So I've only actually been on Twitch for two

years. Okay. And I heard my kids constantly talk about Twitch when they were back in middle school

and high school. And they talk about, I'm going to go watch somebody play video games. And I'm like,

why don't you play the video game yourself? Why are you watching someone else? Oh,

you're one of those. I was one of those dads. Yes, exactly. And I had no idea why I would ever want to

go over there. And then I, I do, I do a thing with pastors where I bring them together, uh, so that we

are, and it's with Barnabas, uh, ministries, they do John 17, 23 groups because we want to have unity.

And I really, really believe in that. So, uh, get, get guys across town or gals and we get together

and we're all pastors. We're all on mission and we're sharing lives together. We're trying to do

that. And, uh, in the middle of COVID, uh, a guy, uh, that some of you, I know he's been on the

podcast before, uh, pastor Brock VR knew him in real life. We got together and I listened to him

talk about, I'm doing, you know, VR stuff and I'm, I'm doing all this stuff like two and a half years.

He just kept talking about, talking about it. And in the middle of COVID, I resigned from what I was

doing and sitting home feeling sorry for myself, which, you know, you do when you have that happen.

Sure. And I said, I guess I'll go watch him. I got nothing else to do. And boy, the people that

were there just loving on me when I showed up, I'm like, I have, I've not experienced this in a

church. Why is this happening here? And why have I not known about it? And so he started doing this

right away. He kept saying, Hey, go follow him. He's going to stream. And I'm going,

no, I'm not. Why would I ever do that?

No. So actually, uh, Alice in the palace was the first one that followed me. Like he said it and

she instantly followed me. And I'm like going, who are you? And why would you do that?

Jake, it's a percentage of that fall.

So, so, so hanging out there for a while, I started streaming and all I, and, and I started

working in churches who are struggling. They may close, they may not close, but they don't know

what they're doing. And so that's what I'm doing part-time real life. So, cause I have to eat.

And then I got addicted to, and I'm going to say that I got addicted to being online and reading

through the Bible. And that's what I do. It's like, that isn't like the, what? 0.1% of people

who are probably on Twitch is I spend two hours reading through the Bible Monday through Friday.

Maybe like you and three other people. Yeah. Me and three other people. Yeah. I'm not counting

those that just put it on autoplay. I mean, they're actually there. And, uh, it's just, it's just been

a blast. And then as I'm doing that and engaging with people, um, I shifted cause I actually had been

streaming worship services for 10 years live before COVID. But our only intent was when you're sick and

you're home or you're, you're going down to Florida, but you know, for the middle of winter,

cause where I'm in Michigan, it's a, you can still watch and still be connected. And I suddenly

realized what I was doing was missing a mission field. And so now I'm trying to figure out, that's

why I'm at expo. It's like, okay, God, you want me to plant a digital church? I don't know what it's

supposed to look like, but it is, I have to know the culture and I have to know who the target is.

And I have to figure all that out. And that's why I'm here at expo trying to figure all that out.

Awesome. Awesome. Jata, I mean, obviously the, a lot of the podcast community knows you,

knows about your story, probably follows your stream, to be honest with you. Um, tell it,

but tell us a little bit about, uh, just a brief synopsis on what you're doing and, uh,

what you're doing on Twitch. Yeah. Uh, I play video games.

You know, well said. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I get to play video games and, um, every game,

every video game. Um, just get to hang out and chat with people and hopefully get a real

relationship with them. Um, my goal in general is to have 50% of the stream be non-Christian.

So yeah, like, I mean, cool. People should come follow and like support for sure. But my goal is

not really, uh, for probably the people listening to this podcast, but it's most

mostly as an outreach as like a missionary. So, um, but I play games and I pray for people.

And through that, I get to have a real relationship that hopefully leads to deeper

conversations and questions. Um, on Saturdays, we go through a chapter of the Bible while playing a video

game. And, um, usually those take about like three to four hours for us because there's a lot of

questions that come in. So that's, that's the majority I would say of my, my ministry is mostly

just like actually being active in people's lives and trying to remember everybody's names and trying

to, uh, remember what their prayer requests were and, uh, just have a, you know, just be a friend and

through that get to get to pray for them. And I don't know, it all kind of works out. God works it

all out in a wash. So. And you haven't visited Jade live yet. Like I know Jade saying we want 50%

of my chat and things to be, but go lurk even because I think the big thing for me is when I'm

trying to help people understand what's happening on Twitch, Jade is a really good person to direct

people to, even if you're just sitting there and you're not interacting and you're just listening

because you begin to understand not the entertainer side. Like if you come to Twitch,

you might go watch someone has 50, 60,000 people watching them. And you're like, I don't really,

okay, it's any, whatever, kind of get it. Um, but I don't, it's pretty good. But when you,

when you come to Jade stream, you realize the genuine community and family and connection that

happens there. That's very, uh, unique to the space, but that Jade leans into really,

really well, which is why I encourage people when I talk to them and they're like, well,

what's going on there? I like go watch Jade stream, like go hang out there for a day and just listen

and just see what's happening because it's a, it's a really, it's a really perfect example.

And he'll be online the whole day. He doesn't need a discord server when he's online all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, spending on his sleep schedules at that moment. Uh, Andy, uh, tell us a little

about, uh, I mean, you are once again, kind of like flat cap, you are in two worlds, one where

you're involved with us at Lux with a fully digital church, but then you're also an online pastor at a

very physical church. Um, so tell us a little bit about like your, your narrative and your stuff.

Yeah. Uh, digital pastor for Bay Hope church, been there for three and a half ish going on four

years, uh, now and was there before COVID started kind of was doing the whole thing. They needed,

they were streaming to a couple thousand people every single Sunday and didn't know what to do

with these people for over 10 years. And so they were like, Hey, we need a pastor. I was worship

pastor up in Atlanta and long, you know, long story there, but ended up in Tampa. And that's where Bay Hope

is. And really started kind of getting my feet, uh, under the desk and then COVID happened. And then

the entire world changed in terms of streaming. And it was kind of a boon that I was there at the

time. And so I got kind of got to see a lot of the transformation with a lot of churches was kind

of consulting and helping a lot of smaller to mid-sized churches get their feet up or get their,

you know, their, their platforms up during COVID. And what I found was that they were missing the

engagement piece a lot. They were missing the actual engagement, that weird kind of buzzword that we all

use, but they were missing that. It was like, all the questions were focused on how, what cameras do

I need? What microphones do I need? And it's like, no, no, no, you're missing the point. You need to

have the relationship side. Um, and so I kind of actually started consulting with a company called

altar live, go use altar live. We actually have a number of our subscribers that, um, watch and

listen to this podcast. So thank you everybody. Keep that up. Uh, we really like that. Uh,

altar has been growing, but started consulting with them, got introduced to Mark, uh, was asked to go

interview Mark actually a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, is something like that. Um,

and I had kind of already been stalking Lux a little bit on Twitch and, uh, so interviewed him

super loved it. I was doing my own podcast at the time. It was one of my own podcasts interviewed Mark

for that as well. And at that point I was like, Hey dude, I want to help out. Um, and so kind of

just started there and had never met you, uh, really love the engagement piece that Lux was doing

because there was something way different there. Uh, and we can talk about that later, but there's

something way different happening with everybody here in a digital capacity versus what's happening

in the physical space. And I want to bring that to the physical space because man, people need that.

They, they need to be able to understand that the 167 hours that you're not in church,

there's a way to talk to people who actually care. Uh, and then lo and behold, Mark offered me,

we met here at expo last year for the first time physically got to hug his neck. And, uh,

we ended up, I ended up, he offered me a job eight months ago ish. Let's say. Yeah. Yeah.

July. Whatever. I was saying you didn't. Hey, thanks. I took the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hey, watch this. Hey, you want a job? Yeah. Oh, let's look at the budget.

Yeah. Yeah. There was that. Yeah. There was that. So, uh, it's been great though,

working with Lux. Um, and actually I'm also helping with DCN and, uh, doing their directing of

resources and all sorts of stuff. So there's just, there's a whole lot there, but, but the biggest piece

kind of like flat cap is alluding to is getting the people that in the physical space to understand

that there are people that are constantly online and constantly wanting to communicate with them.

Oh, Zach, tell us a little about, cause you work for Storyland, Plain Joe. I can't remember

which brand is the most important one this week, um, that you guys run by. Um, they kind of are.

It's, it's so interesting to me because they are a branding company, but I'm never sure which brand

they are. It's like, it's the, that's, that's a couple of issues. Yeah. Yeah. But it works.

It works. So tell us a little about yourself, uh, Zach, uh, here on the DCN podcast, and then,

uh, maybe a little bit about what Plain Joe and, and Storyland do, what you guys are about. Um,

and also maybe a little bit of your, your part in Megazord real quick.

Yeah. Um, so I work for Storyland Studios within that Plain Joe is a Storyland studio and we focus

on all the cause related. So it's all the same people, but we have a cause related focus. Um,

virtually everyone in the studio, um, is Christian and just has a passion for that world,

but we also serve themed entertainment clients like Disney and Universal, um, and other clients

internationally. So we're able to take that experience and apply it to the church, but

the entertainment clients tend to have, um, a little bit of a allergic reaction to if they go

on your website and they see that you designed a church and they say, well, that's not the same

thing. Also, we don't like the church. Um, and so we have two front doors. We say, Hey,

church, Plain Joe is your studio and we will serve you well. And themed entertainment clients,

Storyland is your studio and don't worry about Plain Joe. Um, and what I love about it.

So I have a background in construction and we just, the whole studio, the studio's whole idea

is, um, storytelling worthy of the story. And we'd say the story has the, the church has the best story

ever told. And we want to tell that story well. And the church historically has done, uh, at least

a pretty good job of doing that with words, but we have spaces and websites and culture and

communication strategies, um, that are speaking and often speaking louder than our words. And we don't

have, not everyone has a skillset or the ability to manage that as well. So we get to come in and help

tell that story. Um, so making sure that whatever story you're trying to tell as a church, your unique

way that you're communicating the gospel, um, that you're doing that consistently on your website and

your brand and your culture and your spaces. And we often end up working with very innovative

churches, very innovative nonprofits. Um, it's just the nature of what we do. And the beauty of that is

I am a card carrying nerd. I love Marvel and video games. And that's just always been part of my DNA.

And so as I get to start working in this space, I discover there's this whole community of people

who are on the bleeding edge of church, big C church stuff, trying to serve our nerdy neighbors

as well. And I'm sitting there thinking, man, all of my closest friends are people who need this

ministry. The nerds who hang out every Friday night playing D and D and that's where they found

community. They had broken homes or they just had tough childhoods and they found the best community

around the D and D table and not in the church. And I love these guys. And I'm like, how do I serve

these guys well? And I'm like, Oh, it's, it's these, I need these ministries to succeed so that my friends

can be saved. And, uh, so I'm like, man, if I can use any of the stuff that I'm learning through, uh,

and applying and all the experience I'm getting in doing work for the church, um, and helping clients

tell their stories well and help to do that in this space, um, that's just the biggest one I could ask

for. And so, yeah, we had the opportunity last year to, uh, I, uh, the first time I met Mark, I said,

Hey, what do you think about if we tried to raise like a couple of tens of thousands of dollars and

fly a bunch of people into a city and like hang out and just like try to be fuel and engine of all

these nerd culture ministries. And he was like, yeah, that seems like a good idea person. I just

met. And like two weeks later, he was like, uh, it's happening. We've got money. Let's do it. And so we

did. And, uh, it was a really successful event that we did last year that was just helping to pour

gas on that fire, um, and propel and hopefully just kind of renew the spirit of a lot of these

people that are doing that kind of ministry. And it was great. And we loved it. And now we're trying

to figure out what does that look like moving forward? And that's, we're talking about how do

we launch networks of people that are doing this ministry and how do we, uh, do another event in

Texas this year, um, in Marble Falls that will be just helping the church understand what is,

what, what is this and how, how can you guys get involved? And so it's been, uh, it's just been

a blessing to be able to do my day job and then also volunteer and just be part of all that nerd

and part of locks and be in Jade's community and just be hanging out with everyone.

You're kind of everywhere, man. It's a little scary. Yeah. Not while I'm working though. Never.

Well, yeah. Yeah. No, it's never happened. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Never, never happened. Only in the

evenings. I mean, obviously we have a really great group of, of guys. I mean, there are gals in the

space, but at the moment, guys around, around the mic who are really in like the bleeding ed,

bleeding edge innovation of not just reaching gamers, which is what we've been talking about in this

season a lot. It's like e-sports and video games. And like a lot of people understand that, but it,

but it is so much larger than that. And the scope is so much larger than that because,

because gamers are not singularly like one thing, right? They're multifaceted. And so many people

who are gamers are also card carrying nerds in multiple other ways. Right. So they don't just

play video games. They're also major board game enthusiasts and lovers. You know, they don't just play

video games. They also love anime and they also love Japanese culture. Like, like Jake does.

Right. And they also are spiritually beings, spiritual beings that need to be fed, who are

interested in the Bible and looking for spiritual journey, like flat cap and Lux and all of us

serve them in that capacity. And CPAs and artists and they're in your communities doing all this

kind of stuff anyway. Yeah. Normal human beings. Yeah. And you just, well, many, like, and you just

don't realize that the engineer that comes to your church on the weekends also plays Dungeons and Dragons

a Saturday night before. And that's why he's usually tired when he gets there on Sunday mornings.

He shows up. Yeah. He shows up on Friday afternoon. He's your, yeah, your construction manager is also

playing World of Warcraft tomorrow night. And like, yep. Yeah. I usually, like, I go to church a lot of

times. I, I like fly the nerd flag. If you guys, I'm sure we all do that, right? You put it, like,

I put on my Dungeon and Dragon shirt when I show up to a new church and just see which people we

silently make the eye contact from across the room. And it's like, uh, oh, we get each other.

So here's what I'd love to dive into a little bit because we're all at expo. We have all, except for

Jade, unfortunately, because it's like, you get delayed and canceled and he got here. Have been,

he's still at expo. He's at expo now and he made it to the pre-con stuff this morning.

Well, yeah. Look, I'm reaching right through him. Yeah. We have a bunch of, we have a bunch of clips

from Jade's previous episodes. We're just inserting it random into this one. Um, Chad GPT is getting

crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So just like open forum. What is the things that you've seen from even

pre-con expo that has just been really helpful, eyeopening, encouraging to you? Because I want to see

more people who listen to this, who are on the pleading edge, get to this event for a whole

bunch of reasons, but I'd love to hear some of the reasons why it's been helpful or encouraging,

challenging to you. Yeah. I mean, so for me, we're actually just talking about this at lunch today.

It's, it's really interesting to hear people in the room that came looking for something and the thing

that they actually got wasn't, it wasn't necessarily different. It wasn't wrong. It was just more.

I, well, they were looking for like specific tech answers. Like how do I stream to two spots or how

do I do this? Their vision was about this, this wide. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Put that off

to the side. We'll figure that out later. That's a YouTube video. How do you, how do you relationally

engage people in the spaces where you find them? And so it was good to hear that because I mean,

honestly for us, if we're being real, sometimes we can get caught in the weeds of it, right? Like we

can't, can't see the, you know, the forest through the trees kind of a deal. And so it's one of those,

one of those deals where maybe we're just too close to it, um, that we forget that, Hey, you know,

this thing that we actually did X, Y, Z years ago, that's where they're starting. And so, you know,

we're light years ahead of that, but how do we back that up in order to train and multiply and do all

this stuff? How do we come a couple of parsecs back? See what I did there? I did. It's a star

war. It's a star war. That's one of the spots. That's the absolute. Yeah. And R2B. It's a start

war. And so how do we, how do we come into that space and be like, Hey, in order for you to get

off the ground, because you're going to reach people I don't reach, how do we do that? And so it

would literally going back to the pre-conference stuff, it was eyeopening and earopening to hear

people go, Hey, I loved it. So what now? Yeah. How do we do that? And it's like, I feel like

we've been doing this for a while now. Like it's just, you sometimes forget like where you started

from. It sounds stupid. Like just like how hard it wasn't because like at the beginning,

get going. Yeah. But, and then you, you think about it, you're like, no, that was tremendously

difficult. How long ago? I mean, cause I mean like put numbers on it. Oh, you guys just hit

five years on this. That's for LTN and for LoveClan, but probably closer to 12, 15 years

ago. Yeah. For game. Yeah. It's been a long, it's been a long while. 12, 12 something. Yep.

Which if you, anything you've done, that's like all of school. Oh yeah. Like elementary school.

You'd be a kindergartner. So like you're up here talking like, let's talk about like maybe

at like a 10th grade level. It's like kindergarten level for some of the, such a long, yeah.

So it seems obvious. There is an encouragement to come from all of that though.

Uh, you had said that somebody had made the comment drinking from firehomes. That's what

it felt like. Right. But then we were talking about it at lunch. And the other thing that

came out of it was everybody's doing things a different way. Like there's no, there is

no cut and try, you know, and again, there's not a slam on any physical churches. Me being

a physical church pastor, three songs and a message ain't going to cut it in the online

space. It's just not going to. And so the encouragement is God has made all of us in

different spaces. God has given us all different communities and different skills and talents

and abilities. If we can figure out a way to get into those, into those little communities,

those little pockets, Jeff is big on, I don't want to make a church of 10,000. I want to make

a hundred churches of whatever, a hundred churches of a hundred or a thousand churches of 10 or

150 churches of 200 churches. Insert logarithmic number here. But, but you see what I'm saying? And

so we, we, like I, if I was to set up something digital, it's not going to be the same as Zach or

the same as flat cap. It's going to be totally different. And that's cool. Everybody in that

room in the pre-conference room is going to do their own thing and influence 50 people.

Yep. Well, to piggyback on that, when you think about planting a church in the physical space,

you look around at all the churches and you're going to, that's the model I'm trying to copy.

Oh, and that's the demo. I mean, right. That's the, that's the one. And Oh, they did it over

there. Let's go do what they did, but they all innovated. And when we go to copy it, we miss some

of the stuff that they were doing. And I, hopefully those who are, who are there listening to you did

it this way, you did it that way. You're doing something else. What are you, what are you even

doing? I don't understand what you're doing is yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Not everyone is going

to run into the Ethiopian eunuch and say, Oh, you're reading. Let me tell you what you were

reading. And then instantly be wished away to go somewhere else and never see the guy again.

Sure. In many ways, that's one of the beautiful things about what expo is, is that it's innovation,

but it's not just here. It's innovation in every sphere, right? Like in this particular podcast,

we have people who are gaming ministry people, but even in our room, it was digital ministry

people. And there was another five or six approaches that were talked about in just in pre-con. That's

before we get the metaverse track. And that's before we're even touching. And so the really cool thing

is in the space of innovation, when there's not a pre-made map, like when there's not a plan that

shows, this is how you do it. And this is the standard way to do it. Everyone comes to the problem

and they all say, let's, we all come from unique positions and with unique experiences that enable us

to do it in a unique way. And that has been really a beautiful and encouraging thing for me here to expose

like so many of us caring for the same group of people, caring for the same gospel mission, same commission,

and we're taking beautifully unique approaches to that.

I feel like in some ways, like it's, it's almost less pressure when you think about it that way.

Like you kind of put the standard, like I have to do it this certain way or it's not going to succeed.

But like, because we each have our own unique way of doing it, our own unique people that we're trying to reach.

I know it's like, we're gaming, but there's, you know, the gamut there, like it's, it's less pressure.

Like how best can I reach the people in this area?

Yeah. But it doesn't feel like less pressure when cultural norms have said like bigger, you know, butts and budgets, I think, you know,

nickels or noses, the more, the more noses I have, the more nickels I'm making, the better my church is or the better my ministry is.

Yeah. Or even just how do we know it's a church or how do we know it's ministry or how do we know it's discipleship?

How do we, how do we know? How do we know? Right. Well, we can tell you stories. Yeah. And the church isn't used to just saying, tell me a story that they want hard numbers to look at.

And I just don't think that's the way things are anymore. What was, what was interesting also was the number of people that are here that are not from North America.

That's true. I mean, that was fascinating or, I mean, or that are ministering in North America. Yeah. Yeah. So I just think one of the things that a little being,

being outside the fishbowl is, is really encouraging just in this, all of it.

As I listened to the general ministry, there's people that are doing Facebook and they're ministering to people all over the world.

There's people that are using Twitch, they're using WhatsApp.

And it's what I think is beautiful about it is this willingness to say there's people who would rather using stealing your words would rather gamble with the gates of hell than ever darken the doors of a church.

And it's this refusal to say, I'm not going to give up on that person just because they're never going to come to church.

And so it's great. We need the churches there, but the people that are never going to come, we need to just go to them and love them well.

And by whatever means necessary.

So that's the thing, right? Is it's beautiful. It's so encouraging to me.

I mean, we're talking about a, like each individual ministry or person or whatever, having their own, you know, approach.

It's, you know, we talk about it as this bespoke approach, right?

Like this handcrafted thing that we use terminology that people are people, they're not projects.

Everybody's heard that we go a step further and say pixels are people and meeple are people just kind of contextualize like what it is.

And it's basically meeple is a piece and a game board, by the way, if you're listening and you're like, hold on, it's a person.

I'm just assuming people are like, it's a person.

I'm assuming they're rewinding and trying to hear what the word meeple is.

I love about like, you go into any of the streams for anyone in this room.

And I think people who aren't used to those environments, they'd go in and they'd hear like Jay talking about someone like, oh, hey, Sam, I'm glad you're here.

And that's silly. Why are you talking about what you need to know the person's actual name?

Yeah. And it's like, no, that person's that name is just as valid.

And you treat it with full sincerity and you respect them.

And you realize there's a person behind that name and there's a person behind that message.

And I was just talking.

And the impact of it is crazy.

Black cap dapper pastor.

Wow.

Because like, yeah.

And if you, if you legit like on the, on his, his expo badge, that's what you wrote.

Yeah.

Because we were having a conversation that you met somebody and I'm going to butcher the story for the sake of the podcast.

You, you met somebody and they refused to call you by that.

And they immediately in that moment broke the connection.

Yeah.

Well, they put a barrier off before it started.

And that's what we do at times.

We put barriers between us and people who are trying to reach with the gospel.

So, so I had that on my zoom.

So it was a zoom meeting and we were going around and introducing and talking.

And I said, Oh, why don't you go next?

And he said, well, I'm not going to say your name.

And he wouldn't even say flat cap dapper pastor.

Do you think it was a curse word or something?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

He knew it wasn't.

He would not acknowledge that I wanted to be recognized by that because I'm in the digital space.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I prefer to go by that when I'm in the digital space.

If I'm not in the digital space, you guys know me often.

You know my name.

That's great.

That's fine.

I don't care.

It's redacted.

It's redacted.

Yes.

That was my blurring.

But the other thing is people butcher that.

So it's a whole lot easier.

Sure.

To just say, this is who I am.

And then walk away from a conference like this and go, hey, what was that guy's name?

I don't remember.

What was his name?

Oh, yeah.

He was wearing a hat.

But when people come into the digital space, even if it's physically to learn about digital space with pre-conference and stuff like that,

and even the digital track that DCN is doing, it's one of those deals where you get to, this is their first step in.

All they do is church online.

We've only streamed our church service.

And we're like, man, that's just, that barely counts as what we're talking about.

It doesn't not count.

Let's not discredit it.

But it barely counts.

And once we get over the threshold of that, you're going to meet people that aren't Miss Opal, right?

You're going to meet Flat Cap Dapper Pastor and, you know, Xenoblade 29 and like all these people.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

28 was decent.

29 really made it.

But you're going to meet these people that are, they have real human experiences.

And so I think that that's where, like, we don't, we talk about 15 years in this ministry.

We don't have it figured out.

Pastors who have been on the mission field or wherever for that long and longer, they're like, we're still learning that culture.

We're still understanding how that works and what makes them tick.

And so I think it's good for us to come in and just share the things that we know without being the smartest people in the room.

And not to make them do what you're doing, but just to help people blow open all those categories and say, this is the way that we're, this is the wall that we chose to break down to get to that person over there that was never going to be able to come in.

Oh, yeah.

And the wall you break down is probably going to be completely different.

Yours might be the jujitsu ministry.

I don't know.

But let us help you blow open all those categories.

Hold on, let's put a pin in that because we've said jujitsu ministry twice and they have no clue.

So the quick story is we walked up here to, we walked up here to, yeah, we're in an, yeah, let's, let's take a tour.

We're in an upstairs area in one of the kids areas and there's a giant room out there.

We walked into Scott out the studio space this morning and they were legit having a jujitsu ministry talk through.

And it was jujitsu.

Yeah.

Jesus and Kung Fu or whatever.

The guy that was talking had a shirt on that said Jesus and violence.

Yeah.

It looked like MMA pictures up on the screen.

He was like, this is so cool.

And my first thought was I have a friend who would love this.

Yeah, dude, it was awesome.

Is your friend Conor McGregor?

It is not.

I'm close.

Is your friend Conor McGregor?

Well, I think overall.

I mean, I've met him, yeah.

I want to talk about it in his graphics.

I want to talk about what we're just genuinely excited about in what we see coming in this next season.

Because we do have a lot of people whose life is tied up into this thing, right?

Many of our lives are tied up to this somehow, right?

We're living and breathing it daily, whether we're doing it full-time or part-time.

I think that in the end of the day, one of the things that I think we've all experienced was it's the innovation, but it's also just people trying to embolden the hearts of folks who come to Expo to say, love people that aren't loved.

Find ways to get to people that aren't reached.

Like, we're not telling you what to do.

We're asking you to ignite your heart for people whom Jesus loves and no one is trying to get to.

And that's just what I've seen in everything, right?

And that's really cool.

But let's talk a little bit about our area, what really ignites our hearts.

And it's for, you know, not just digital ministry and digital discipleship, but also for people inside of this nerding gaming culture.

What are we genuinely excited about seeing?

Because I really think that we're coming towards the precipice of a lot of very exciting things in terms of the church looking to game culture and looking to nerd culture and acknowledging, not only acknowledging its existence,

but also not seeing it as a thing to be outcasted and ostracized, but to engage with and to care for.

3.2 billion people in the world are gamers.

Like, it's their gamers.

Like, that's most people probably in your church.

Yeah.

Roughly a billion more people than there are Christians on the planet, just for the record.

That's a 2020 stat.

Yeah.

We're a little bit behind on that.

We all doubled in 2020, right?

During the blip.

The blip?

Yeah.

I was excited about probably Zelda.

Yeah.

Oh, Tears of the Kingdom.

Let's go.

Yes, please.

Eventually.

I would say, like, I mean, outside of actual games that are coming out, like, the thing that I get the most excited about is that aha moment.

Like, when people get it, when you see it click.

And honestly, like, if anybody's, like, wondering, man, how do I convey this stuff?

I don't know the lingo.

We'll just give you the websites for the stats.

Like, stats speak to hear these things about 3.2 billion gamers, and 48% are women, and, you know, here's the people that actually prefer to play games that are not shooters.

It's higher than people that do play shooters.

Because that's, like...

Most gamers are, like, mid-30s.

Yeah, exactly.

35 years old is the average age for a gamer these days, I guess, as of 2020.

So, like, we have, like, all these stats, and churches get that.

They understand that because they track things like baptisms and givers and stuff like that.

And that's how they communicate internally and externally with, you know, associations and conventions and stuff like that.

So, being able to just get out there and say, hey, the numbers are saying that the people are actually in your congregation already.

They just don't feel comfortable because, at best, it's marginalized, and at worst, it's demonized.

You tell them or they have heard that they're going to hell for what they like.

And so, once you're able to turn that, I was able to sit down with about 15 pastors last week and watch them go, what?

No way.

Yes.

Surprise!

Yeah.

Literally had a pastor that was sitting right there, and he was telling me, my son is meeting people for a rehearsal dinner, for a wedding, for a Destiny 2 rating party.

Awesome.

And I'm like, I was like, that's really cool.

I wasn't floored because that's the story of a thousand times.

Also kind of normal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For him, he's like, I didn't even know.

And so, he shared that with the other pastors, and they're like, how in the world?

I'm like, because this creates community.

But we have to understand, and once they get it, the aha moment is then, hey, pastor, now I need you to go start a gaming ministry.

It's, man, no, no, no, no, no.

Let me talk to my buds, and we'll figure out a way to equip and empower and encourage your people who are in the space already to be sourced and activated.

There's something interesting with that, too.

A lot of, so being in the physical space, you get a lot of pastors that are like doing a flat cap set.

That's working.

Let's go copy it.

Yeah.

And it's like, it goes back to the thing that I'm very excited about is God, I think, is releasing his spirit onto all different smaller communities.

Like, I feel like the entire church organization of like, hey, we're going to be mega churches, we're going to do this whole thing, is starting to splinter more and more and more, because people are realizing that they can niche down and find community.

And there's that word again, community and engagement.

Sure.

In places that get them, that, you know, can identify with them quicker, and you can be on a level playing field.

I can say words like asynchronous and, you know, things like that.

And you guys immediately know what I'm talking about.

But if I talk about that to somebody else, they go, literally, like last night at dinner, like, wait, wait, what do you mean by that?

And so I'm having to explain it, which is fine, that's all good.

But our job then as believers and our job as leaders and ministry leaders is to be in those pockets of people, but to minister into those pockets of people.

And not to throw a Bible at them and not to be heavy-handed and not to do it, but to love them, to support them, to allow them to vent their frustrations and their angers and their regrets and all those other things.

And then to show them that Jesus has superseded all of that in our small pockets.

This is the first year I've been to Expo, three, two, three years, plus I did one in, like, Tennessee a couple years ago or last year or something.

This is the first time I've felt that.

This is the first time I've felt like things were starting to slowly kind of coagulate in different areas, and that is very cool.

Like, that's something I haven't seen before.

I think one of the things that I get most excited about is the combination of both what's happening in this space and the physical church, right?

Because when pastors get those aha moments, what God has already done is paved and prepared the road, right?

It would be like a pastor coming and saying to his church, listen, church family, I really feel like God has just opened my eyes to there's a mission field in Iraq.

And then there's two dozen people who raised their hand and were like, hey, we speak Urdu.

And he's like, I had no idea we had Urdu speakers here.

Like, we're prepared and ready to go to Iraq.

And it's like there's a whole world out there that most pastors don't know about.

It's I, the gaming community, in a digital space, and they're going to be able to, like, get to their church and be like, I don't know how we're supposed to do this, but I feel like we're supposed to go into this world and reach people.

And there's two dozen people who are in their church, and they're saying, my language that I speak and the gifts and the abilities that I have have gone completely unused because I had no clue how to plug them into the church.

And I will literally be lit on fire for this opportunity.

Like, light me up.

I'm ready to go.

Can I meet my love for Christ and meet it with my passions that have been given in my life?

And you're actually going to recognize them as God-given passions instead of chastising them as a waste of time.

And to see that happen, it doesn't just make me excited for churches, guys.

It makes me excited for my nerd brothers and sisters who are sitting in congregations and feel like this whole other portion of their life has no place inside their faith, which just isn't true.

And I love that.

That gets me very excited.

Or who got driven out of congregations because they were feeling ostracized.

Oh, yeah.

Like, so many people at Lux, they got driven out because they played D&D or because they played video games.

And it was just like, yeah, you don't really have a place in our church.

And also, you make us terribly uncomfortable.

No, humans are evil.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

What's really interesting is when I was talking with those pastors, D&D came up because it just always does, right?

It's a really easy, hot button issue.

And they were like, oh, man, I can't believe why do people think that this is so bad?

Like, they were saying that to me.

And I was like, do you know what the number one hindrance is from like a D&D group starting at your church?

And they're like, what is it?

And I was like, it's you guys.

And it's not because you guys don't want it.

It's the stigma that's on everything.

So perception is reality.

And if you want something to become different, you have to change culture.

And sometimes that means a little bit of representation goes a long way, right?

And so if you play D&D, don't hide it.

A lot of us were closet nerds for a very long time in our church communities because we felt like we would be ostracized or laughed at or whatever because that's how high school was or whatever, you know.

But to be able to know now that, man, again, statistics are just blowing my mind that the top out of the top 10 movies of all time grossing, eight of them are nerd movies, nerd culture movies.

And you would argue, some of you would argue that nine of them are because Lion King's on the list.

And you guys think that that counts.

I guess if you cry hard enough, it'll work.

But, you know, I mean, it's literally the only two that I would say that are in that top 10 that are not like nerdy movies is Titanic and Lion King.

Everything else is either a Marvel movie or a Jurassic World.

Avatar or some sci-fi, Star Wars, something like that.

Yeah.

And I'll follow that up.

I know we have to close up the podcast here.

I think all of us are excited about the future because we see things lining up.

And if you're listening to the show and you'll hear Jeff and I both say this throughout the show is if you're a keep listening and reach out to us in the digital church network.

If you're like, my heart's being moved towards this and I do have people in my church and I want to see us start doing this.

Like reach out.

Flat Cap Dapper Pastor is doing stuff in the network right now to help connect you to people and help you begin and start this journey.

Like, A, get plugged into that.

B, like reach out to some of the people who are in the space that you're going to hear throughout the course of the season.

Right.

But, like, even on this show, like reach out to Jate, reach out to Love Thy Nerd and say, listen, we don't know exactly what you're doing, but we know it's important.

We don't know how to do it, but we know it's important.

How can we help?

And some of that might be help with being like, hey, we actually have ways that you can literally serve and help.

And some of it might be like you'll be able to get behind some of these ministries financially because one of the biggest obstacles that we're learning about in nerd culture ministry and gamer ministry is that it's just under-resourced.

It's not that it's not valid, it's not that it's not powerful, and it's not that it's not needed.

It's pioneers are frequently under-resourced, right?

We get, like, we get our Conestoga wagon, we fill it with half the supplies that we need, and we head to the gold rush.

And try to fjord the river.

Yeah.

And then it falls over.

Yeah.

And then you can call it.

Yeah, and if you've played Oregon Trail, you know that a lot of us die of dysentery.

And so we would...

We're out of six, man.

Yes, we would love to not do that.

And so, like, would you come alongside of some of this group and just partner with us, pray for us?

Let us consult with you if you're like, I don't know how to do this.

Well, just any of us, I think, would gladly take a phone call and say, let us give you advice on how to do this in your church.

Well, and also, listen to your crazy thought.

Listen to your crazy thought.

Because church and a bar probably started like a crazy thought.

Joey said, I was crushing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Barbecue church started as a crazy idea.

I love barbecue, but I can't do that for...

Well, I also, back in the day, before I went to seminary, when I was in college, I loved doing drama.

And I thought, I'm never going to do that for a living.

I'm not good looking enough.

And Danny DeVito already has the market on short, stocky guys.

So I'm out.

And then my church said, hey, we want to do drama ministry.

We need someone to do that.

And I went, you mean that thing I love doing?

I could do that for Jesus?

Just on that, that's like my favorite verse of Ephesians 2.10, where it's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

He prepared in advance for us to walk in.

And prepared in advance, I think, a lot of times is what gets missed, is that the thing that you're probably called to do is probably not something that's super wildly different.

Like, oh, let's go to Africa and just like have no resources.

But, you know, we're going to like drink off the water in the river and like whatever.

It's like more likely.

Yeah.

Just stay strong with you.

More likely.

It's probably that thing that, like you're saying, that was like, I really want to do this thing.

And I feel called to do it.

Like it's something that is something really deep and personal to me.

But I just don't think I can do it because of failures or whatever that thing is.

And I think that a lot of the times that's that.

And that's why there's so many people that are so ready for this kind of ministry, because they're like, this is the people that I already feel called to is the people that I that are like my people.

And to see that, like, I felt like I was under appreciated and under, you know, just represented really in the church.

And then to now be that and then to see other people not feeling that because you're providing it for them.

Yeah.

Like it just feels so good.

And you were saying earlier about like people not, you know, recognizing your name and stuff.

And was thinking about like Alice is the first one else.

And Alice in the palace.

Right.

And it's like, what's this name?

But when I first met her, it was future queen of hell.

And so when we talk about like, I had to say like, hey, how's it going, queen?

You know, like, I can't say most of the other things in here, you know, like, I'm like, you know, I miss hell.

Like, so, yeah, it's to me, you know, yeah.

And so it is like at the beginning, I even thought like, yeah, this person's probably a troll, like probably here to just cause trouble.

And we talked about that in some of the other things, you know, it's like, it's just a and I would go even further and say accepting people that don't have a camera in VR.

Like, this person's a bowl of ramen.

Like, let's have a good conversation about God to a bowl of ramen.

And nutritious.

It's just, it's a very different, I think people are not, they're in such a like, they're not seeing them as like, I don't think digital really counts.

Oh boy, it's going to be really hard for you when you realize that the bowl of ramen is the person that I'm talking about.

Because like, that conversation was what that person needed.

And we just know there's a person behind the avatar and that that person has a soul.

Yeah.

Or even, even like last week, I had someone from Australia that was in my chat.

And then like halfway through the conversation, and they've been typing kind of fuzzy, all the whole conversation goes, hey, confession time, I'm drunk.

Right.

I'm like, great.

That's okay.

Glad you're here.

Glad you were here and not somewhere else doing something else.

You're welcome to stay.

And they came back the rest of the week.

Yeah.

So cool.

They show up to church drunk.

You got a problem.

Yeah.

And you have people swarming them to do whatever they need to.

And there's no ministry happening to the person in church, man.

Like it's.

There was a long time that every team meeting, one of my team members showed up without a shirt on.

And that was, it was a dude.

It was like a big, big dude.

And I love him.

I love, I love Salty to death.

Yeah, it was at Lux.

Yeah, not physical church.

It was at Lux.

But I was like.

I don't live in Pittsburgh.

I was like, yeah, this dude, this dude's going to have a hard time serving on a team at a physical church probably.

Like he might have a hard time fitting in.

But, you know, there's been people who found homes in our communities and they come to us.

I say all the time, people come to us without age, gender, name, or disability, right?

They come to us and we get to learn who they are based off the ways they interact with us.

And we get to learn to love them before, you know, you see them walking across the parking lot and you make judgments about them before they ever enter your door.

And there's a lot of people that never feel welcome in our buildings because before they got through the front doors of the church, we've made judgments about them.

And that just doesn't happen in the digital space in the same way.

We actually get the opportunity to interact with people in a really powerful way.

And there's been lots of people that I was just surprised afterwards.

It's like, oh, you're a dude.

Like I actually didn't know that, right?

And that's okay.

Like it hasn't changed the way I've cared about you or anything like that.

Now we're building a deeper relationship.

I didn't know your name.

And some people, it's taken six months for them to share their real name with us.

And there are so many people in my church now who I know their real name and I don't use it.

It's not that I don't know it.

I remember I messaged my Discord admin once and I sent him a DM by his real name and he said, oh man, I'm in trouble, aren't I?

I was like, no, man, sorry.

Yeah, because we just are so very much so used to the fact that we are accepted by screen names that we use, by the identities that we have inside of the space.

And at the same time, digital space, so alarmingly more honest, transparent, and open than what I've had, being able to see people's physical visages and know their face in the clothes that they had on in physical space.

Which is really cool.

I mean, 100% of the time, it is not a percent lower.

100% of the time, if you put the time, the energy, and the effort into the relationship, there is that relational payoff at the end.

And the relational payoff is not acceptance in Jesus.

The relational payoff is them being vulnerable and opening up because they're not accepted in other spaces of their life, but they have found a space with you who is able to shatter preconceived notions, let alone change them, that they have with what the church is because of what they see in the media.

And so those moments of vulnerability and intimacy is what relationship is born out of.

The moment we fake it, we lose it.

And I think part of what's beautiful about it is, I know when you guys talk about nerds, you try to help open that category up for people.

Yeah.

And I don't know if you'd use this language, but part of it is this idea that, like, almost everyone has, maybe everyone has something that, like, when they start talking about it, you just see their eyes light.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, man.

And just as a person, they just get more animated.

And sometimes that person starts to talk about that.

And immediately they notice everyone else's eyes go dim, right?

Yeah.

And they're like, I should.

That's how you know.

Let me dial it back in, right?

And so when someone gets to have that moment where someone says, what do you think about this?

And their eyes light up and they say, you want me to talk about that?

And they're like, go for it.

I would love nothing more.

All of a sudden, that person is, like, sweet.

And so you start there.

You start with what lights that person's eyes up.

And you develop an authentic interest in it.

If you have the same interest, right?

We're both gamers.

Let's get into that.

Or just tell me about it.

I want to learn.

I have authentic interest.

Well, I mean, how often do you hear somebody or see somebody, right?

They'll be like, oh, you were in a Cowboys jersey?

You're a Cowboys fan?

Yes, that happens all the time.

So it's a willingness to start there and then lead into, if you start there, it's way easier

to then lead into, let me show you some of the things I'm passionate about as well.

Rather than, I could not care less about the things that spark your interest.

Let me tell you about Jesus.

Well, on the flight here, there was a little kid who was four going on five states.

It's his birthday.

Happy birthday.

Happy birthday.

Hi.

Hi.

Happy birthday.

Steven.

Luca.

Luca.

Happy birthday, Luca.

Great name.

But he was, his mom was there and she was freaking out about all this different stuff.

But she had him like on the iPad for a while, but then he put the iPad away and he wasn't

happy about it.

And she was like, it was all this stuff, but she just kept kind of being like dismissive

of a bunch of stuff.

Yeah.

And I just, I just like kind of looked over or whatever and was just like, what's your

favorite Minecraft block or whatever?

Because I saw he was on Minecraft and that like eyes light up thing.

It was just like a whole different, like, like, and she's like, yeah, like I, and she

said like a purple one.

And I was like, Oh, obsidian.

And, and, and she had to dumb it down for you.

Yeah.

But her adults.

Yeah.

Actually, I don't know.

He might not even know, but I wrote, he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one.

And the mom was like, that's an actual thing.

Like, like her, her whole world was just like, like, wait, you're, you know what my kid's

saying?

She was like, my kid is like so much.

Like it's really hard to talk to him or whatever, but like, and she, she was like, Hey, I got

to go to the bathroom.

Can you watch my kid for a bit?

And I was like, absolutely.

And so we did, yeah, literally, like we were talking and eventually the kid asked, can I

switch you seats so I can sit next to him?

And she would try to talk to him and he'd be like, no, I need to ask him a question real

quick.

Like, like, stop trying to talk to me, mom.

I'm like, it's just like, yeah, immediately he asked me where I was going to be because

he's going to be at Disney world.

And he was like, well, when I see you again, I'll tell you what the sound is.

Cause I don't know yet.

And so the mom was like, can I take his, can I take your phone number so I can just like

text you?

I literally don't know how to do this, but you're the only person that's ever talked to

my kid.

She's going to put your name as Google.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was thinking to myself, like, man, I, you know, before this was happening, I was talking

to the mom and was thinking like, there's just, I don't see any way that I can have

a, a, a, a religious conversation right now with just the conversation we're having.

Oh, sure.

Like I got to one point where she's like, I'm very Catholic, but she was like, and I can't

see any other way than that.

And like, she, I just, there was lots of things that would be, what's your favorite Minecraft?

Right.

Yeah.

But, but you know, this, because I, I was able to speak to her kid.

It was, he was asking me all these questions about why I was here and what was I doing?

I have to step in because we're out of time for the church, uh, digital podcast today.

Uh, yeah, this is the aspect that doesn't ever stop.

The podcast that never stops.

So thank you guys so much for listening to the church digital podcast or watching.

We really appreciate it.

Thank you guys, everybody for being on.

So, uh, from Mark from walks digital church, from, um, all of us from LTN, from story land,

from Jate live from flat cap dapper pastor from, uh, Bay hope.

Well, thank you so much guys for tuning in and listening this week and be sure to come

back and listen to the next episode of the church digital podcast.

Bye.

Happy birthday.

Happy birthday.