EP265 - DJ Soto, and Churches Inside Video Games

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper

questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, Twitch edition. Hey, we're in

Season 4 here of the Church Digital Podcast, diving into Jesus, gamers in church. And so we're doing

this podcast, but with Season 4 here, we've been doing the podcast live on Twitch. It's Thursday. I

don't even know what today is. The 23rd, 3 p.m. Eastern. And so we're hanging out on Twitch. We've

got some people kind of hanging out on Twitch. And so we've been doing this season, I don't know,

for a month or so, digging in, different conversations. And we've had some Twitch streamers,

we've talked esports, we've talked digital missionaries, some really interesting topics,

family streaming, like some really interesting topics and talking about how God is moving

in gaming and what it looks like to be a church in these gaming communities. So you can go back and

check out the rest of Season 4. If you're watching online or on YouTube, thechurch.digital

slash podcast, we'll get you to that. You can subscribe to the podcast or youtube.com,

thechurch.digital, of course. But then we are streaming this Thursdays at 3 p.m. Eastern.

And so if you're hanging out on Monday, listening to this on demand, it's like, oh, I like Twitch or,

oh, I don't even know how to spell Twitch. Create an account, get a feel for what Twitch and some of the

culture and community looks like here, because it's a lot of fun. And what you'll discover is that we,

I'll call out the U.S. church specifically on this one, but probably the church in general,

we're not doing a really good job connecting with gamers and nerds in this crowd. And maybe we need

to start to think outside the box and what ministry looks like and take some notes here.

Phantom Methods. Twitch, I think I've heard of that before. That's awesome. Hey, so listen, I am really excited

about today's conversation. I typically, I'm a bleeding edge guy. I like thinking outside of

the box. I like doing something different. I love change. I'm the guy that's going to wash up on a

deserted island with the machete and just start hacking away at palm trees, paving the way.

But when I find somebody that's even more aggressive and more bleeding edge than I am,

oh man, that's when it gets really fun. And so we're going to bring into the conversation

DJ Soto from VRMMO Church and Pastor Coco as well. And so magic magician behind the wall,

bring him in. Hey, there you go. Coco, DJ, hey, thanks for jumping on the podcast here into this

conversation. Hey, thanks for having us. It's good to be here. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the invite.

So here's, oh, listen, I'm so looking forward to this. I was talking off air. DJ, I don't think

we've had a conversation in 22, in 23. It's been probably six months or so. You and I are running

in different directions all the time. Keep me busy. And Coco, I don't think we've touched base maybe

in a year. I remember doing something with you with Leadership Network a while back, a panel,

but I'm really looking forward to digging in here. Yeah. So here's what we're going to talk about.

And I'm explaining this to the audience as well as to the guests here. I really want to focus on the

idea of church in some of these games. We've talked about doing church in Twitch, being a digital

missionary, using Twitch. We've brought Jay Earhart in. We've brought Aki. We've had conversations with

Mark about Lux Digital Church and Bubba from Love Thy Nerd. And so we've talked very peripherally,

if that's the right way to say that, about engaging within gaming culture. But what you guys are doing

through VR, MMO Church is more specifically doing church in these video games. Like Pastor Coco,

you are for, I started to say Black Desert Online. No, it's Final Fantasy. And so you're literally doing

church inside Final Fantasy. This is crazy. Could you just maybe open up here a little bit and tell us

a little bit about what church looks like in the video game, Final Fantasy?

Yeah. So it differs depending on what game you're in, because you don't want to just lift and shift,

of course, physical into digital space. You want to take advantage of what's going on in the space. So

Final Fantasy 14 is the one that I'm in. It's an MMO. And we have every other Saturday a gathering at

our FC house, our free company house, which is like your guild. And we will just have a discussion.

It's more of a discussion than it is like a sermon. We can't do music in there. So there's no music,

but we just have a discussion and go through the Bible really in depth, very in depth. We're going more

so than what you would normally expect on a Sunday. And we're just digging into scripture, clicking

hyperlinks to other, you know, hyperlinks is a term from Bible Project, if you haven't heard of them.

Sure.

But, and just digging into scripture and having discussions about it and asking challenging

questions is like, how do we apply this to our lives and stuff? And we'll hang out as far as the

community goes. We'll, we play together every Friday night and throughout the week, whenever any one of

us is online, if we want to do content together, we play together. So it's kind of like doing our life

together inside the game and on voice through discord. Cause we can't, there's no like in game voice.

So we meet in discord through voice while we're playing in the game. So it depends on the game,

how you can do that. But

Sure. DJ, like what other, you know, so obviously we're, we're in final fantasy. What other games are

you, are you actively in? What games were you experimenting with? Like, give me some backstory

and history here on, on actually doing church inside these video games.

Yeah. So, um, you know, what we're known for mainly is churches in virtual reality. And then,

uh, we've been church planning in MMOs as of recent, that's part of a new part of VR church.

And our name has kind of evolved unofficially, uh, to VR MMO church. So we're planning churches in

virtual reality experiences, uh, the metaverse. And we're also planning churches in massively

multiplayer online experiences. And we're, I'm particularly drawn to MMOs and Coco is the team

is because there's some unique particularities when it comes to MMOs. So it's not that you

couldn't maybe create a community around like Fortnite, but let's say, uh, you're playing a

quick Fortnite game. You jump in there with a hundred players or so. And then, but that's just

for 10 minutes and then you're out. Um, so there is a massively multiplayer element to that,

but it's only for a very limited time. A lot of these MMOs for people who don't know,

because I get the question a lot, what is an MMO? Um, are these, um, experiences that are

persistent? Like the sun rises and sets, there's an economy, there's communities, there's clans,

there's guilds, there's all these different characteristics. Um, and there's, you know,

maybe debate about what is an MMO, what, what is not, but ultimately one of the elements is that it

always exists. It always is there. So, uh, pastor Coco was talking about the guild house,

so that's currently active online. It didn't go away like a Fortnite experience would. Um, that

is currently there. Players could go actually walk up to the house, look at the, um, the guest book,

uh, read about what church is like or, or, or sign it at least. Um, I'm not sure if there's a

descriptor there. I can't remember Coco. You can, uh, maybe, uh, remind me about that, but

there's a short description. Yeah. Short description. And you can walk through the

house and kind of check things out. And, um, that's where they gather for church and it's

really beautiful there. So, um, really VR, the metaverses and MMOs have a lot of similarities.

A lot of these MMOs, if they adopted VR would be considered a metaverse, um, to some degree. So

there's a lot of similarities. And oftentimes these MMOs are more robust in community building than say

the VR metaverses are. So anyways, that whole vibe or that whole realm of virtual reality,

metaverse, persistent universes, that all is attractional to us as church planners. Um,

that what we do. So, um, yeah, we're, we would love to be everywhere because we just have such a

passion for it. It's just, you know, human power, you know, time, energy, and money to get into these

spaces. But right now, uh, we have churches in, uh, the VR side rec room and VR chat, and those could be

considered, um, gamer churches, if you will. Uh, there's definitely game gamer elements to that,

to those things. Those on the VR side. Um, and in the MMO side, we have churches in Final Fantasy 14

online, which Pastor Coco leads and as well as Rust, which is a very unique experience, survival, um,

MMO type of, uh, uh, of world where we build a church. It's a persistent sunrises, sunsets,

there's an economy. It's kind of more of a, you're gritty, maybe post-apocalyptic experience. But,

um, ultimately, like when you boil all this down, cause I know I'm talking about all the,

the, you know, the platforms, but when you boil it down is there's communities that exist online and

very compelling, robust communities and with deep relationships and deep connections.

And those platforms that for lack of better words, like are screaming, we build community here

really well. We're attracted to go plant a church there. So Final Fantasy, um, I was a Warcraft

player back in the day, by the way, I would love to do a church of Warcraft if we had time, energy,

money, you know, all that type of stuff. Uh, there's so many places we could go. You mentioned Black

does it online. So you, you know about that. That's a big one as well. But I remember reading

about an in-game wake for a, uh, uh, a player that had passed away. And I saw this community just

kind of like get together and come around this like tragic event, um, very symbolically in game

with umbrellas walking, um, in a line. And I was so captivated by the community elements of that.

And I was like, Oh, I think that that'd be a perfect place to plant a church. Um, and,

and things with rust were attractional to us as well. So, uh, those are our, anyways, to

boil it down, those are our four main experiences. We would love to be everywhere. The opportunity is

ripe to go other places. So people are listening and, um, you know, you, you got communities in

Warcraft or, uh, Black Desert Online, man, it is just ripe for opportunities. So anyways, I could go

all day. I better stop, uh, and let you ask questions because I could just keep going.

So good. I, I do want to parallel. I want to talk about VR and gaming and, and how the similarities

and differences, because I'm, I'm in the middle of some of those conversations even now trying to

wrestle with that, but we'll, we'll get there. Hold off on the VR stuff for, for, for a little bit.

Uh, Coco, talk to me a little bit. I mean, you're so you're, you're, you're trying to launch these

games where we're in games that are, that are community centric. Um, my, my 14 year old daughter

is obsessed with Final Fantasy. And so I understand the community that, that, that's surrounding that

space. What does, you know, and so you're talking about a, a Bible studies or, or, or, you know,

studying the word and going, going deep into that. Like how is, how is the church really taking

advantage of maybe some of the community features, uh, within the, within the game? Like, are you,

I love the idea. I forget. What did you say? What was the phrase? Cause it was, it wasn't like

copy and paste when you were like, you don't want to just do the physical thing. You can't lift and

shift. Lift and shift. I've never heard that before. That's a good one. That's a good one.

That is, that's a good one. You never want to lift and shift. Yeah. Um, yeah. But, uh, so like

drill in a little bit, let's, let's get dirty here. Maybe some practical stuff. Like how,

how are you the church in Final Fantasy?

So we have, we're using the tools that Final Fantasy provides. They provide a cross world link shell

is what is their in-game chat that lets you, um, that's like set up specifically for a group. So

you can invite people to that chat channel and it goes across different world servers. Um, so I'm in

one on North America called Siren. And then I can talk to someone else on another server that is

also in North America. But, um, so we use that and there's also the concept of the guild, the free

company. So we have a few members who are active in our free company, but we're not limited to just

our servers. So we have people that attend and hang out across multiple servers that, that we can hang

out together regardless of what server we're on. That's the way Final Fantasy is set up. Um, and so we

will use that cross. Let me ask, let me ask this. Go ahead. Do people come to your guild, like looking

for MMO church? Are you missional in, in inviting people in, into the guild or into the church? Maybe,

maybe what is, what is evangelism or some of that front door? What does that look like, uh, through

what you're doing in Final Fantasy?

We have to be careful with the games rules, terms of service. Cause we, cause think about it. Like

if you were going to be a missionary in another country, you would want to respect that country's

rules and laws, uh, so that you don't get kicked out or arrested or anything. Cause you can't do

anything if you're kicked out. So we respect those terms of service. And so we have to be careful in how

we communicate stuff. So we use outside means, um, to communicate, Hey, we're in Final Fantasy, like

social media. We use YouTube. We, um, use TikTok. We, um, promote that way because in game, they don't

want you, um, there are certain laws or rules around like religious activity and stuff. So we want to respect

that. Um, cause they're trying to like keep the griefers out. Right. So, um, as far as like the,

you have to be careful because

there's this risk of people coming into Final Fantasy just to, and this is what they're afraid of

yelling out to everyone, you're going to hell repent, right? We don't want that. And so they've got the

terms of service in place to protect the community from that. And we want to, you know, uh, abide by

that. And so we've got discord, we've got TikTok, YouTube, and then we have our free company and our,

um, that you can find through the community website web, the Final Fantasy has a community website,

so you can go looking for free companies to join. And we've got our info in there. Um,

so it's outside to bring in, um, mostly.

Very cool.

So tell me a little bit, talk, talk to me about the, like the,

one of the things that I've learned digitally is different platforms, different communities have a

different target audience. Um, there are people outside of that audience, but as a general role,

there's a, there's a type of person that that's within that, that space. Um, what's the, what's

the target audience? Who's the persona that the average person that, that you're connecting with,

uh, in the Final Fantasy world slash church?

So there's different types of people that play Final Fantasy. There are the people that are just

checking it out to see, you know, if, if they like it and they'll play very casually.

The people that we usually get are the ones who are like in it. They are,

that is, they see Final Fantasy as their community. They're coming there for friendships. They're coming

there for that relationship because it's, uh, something that they can't get out in the real

world or it's different in the real world. Um, and so that is their community. Like for example,

um, there's a certain streamer who is on Twitch that, um, she's from the Ukraine and she strange,

she had to leave Ukraine. Um, and so the community, the Final Fantasy community watched her life,

watched her evacuating. They watched her have to move to another country and get back set up again.

And they were with her throughout that whole thing. And there have been like the community

hangs out with people cause there's like been gamers in Ukraine who have been, um, hanging out with

their friends online while they're being bombed in their bomb shelter. So this is the type of community

that Final Fantasy is. And these are the types of people that we want to be a part, the ones that are

there to live, right. To be a part of that relationship.

Sure. Very cool. Is, um, and maybe DJ on your side, like how much of lift and shift are you even

doing among like Final Fantasy and, and Rust is, are there different rules in, in, you know,

you were mentioning terms of services, terms of conditions like that. Does it, does it change greatly

between the two video games as you're looking even at like World of Warcraft? Are you having to

reinvent more than replicate? Like what, what is, what is the idea of multiplying this out among

different worlds? What does that look like? Yeah, that's a great, uh, point that Coco made

about lift and shift. So for Rust, they, they are, uh, it's, it's known to be more of a toxic

environment just because it's a brutal, like, you know, uh, kill or be killed type of, uh,

experience a video game. And so, uh, the, the rules don't really apply like they would in Final

Fantasy because I think it's just kind of everything goes for the most part. There are some basic things

about, um, hate. Um, and I'm sure that probably could be connected to religious hate depending on

on how it's expressed, but, um, we find, we find it to be a lot more relaxed on, on the Rust side of things.

And so, um, fundamentally, like when we look at these different communities and I know this sounds kind

of like weird and it's not meant to, but the platform tells us what it wants it to be. Like,

this is how church should be in here. So for us to, and what we did in early VR church days,

is try to replicate the church. And really that created a lot of pain points, um, when we realized

that we were supposed to reimagine and not replicate. And so as we learned that lesson

through VR church and really grown by leaps and bounds as a ministry, that trends, that mindset was

already in place when we came to Final Fantasy, when we came into Rust, where we weren't trying to

replicate, we were going to reimagine. And so as we church planted, uh, the, we took, uh,

we looked at it through the eyes of the strengths of the platform. Like, uh, Coco was talking about

the link shell, uh, the, uh, I forgot the guild's name, the fellowships and, um, you know, the free

companies. And so, uh, for Rust, it has its own version of things that are attractional to those

types of players. And we'll get a lot of like reaction online, like TikTok, people are like,

you have a church in Rust, that's crazy. And we've had a lot of people come and visit.

And what you're, you're hearing about kind of like the, the bird's eye view of the experience,

but really when you get down to the nitty gritty, like, uh, and, you know, I just keep it generic

because, you know, some of these are like pastoral conversations, but I've seen Coco, you know,

one-on-one with people who are part of her community and shepherding them and joining a VC late at night

to be with them, uh, with whatever they're going through. So that avenue of ministry, you know,

perhaps there was people that would eye roll at it, but it's opened up unique opportunities for

people who might not otherwise have been ministered to, or who otherwise might not have attended a

church. And we've seen that in Rust. A guy came in, uh, to our experience in Rust and wanted prayer

because of, um, uh, his wife was gonna lose his, uh, lose her baby or something was going on with, uh,

pregnancy complications. Uh, we didn't see him for like eight, nine months. And then he popped

in our discord and he said, guys, baby's doing well. Thank you so much for praying. I remember

going into the, the, the church in Rust and praying. So those examples of like Pastor Coco

ministering the, the gentleman who came into our Rust church and many more are, I think if people are

adverse to gamer church, if you will, they're really missing out on unique opportunities to connect,

to minister, to encourage where many of these individuals would not have stepped foot, um,

into a physical church on at 9am on a Sunday morning. And that's not anti, anti physical

church Sunday, 9am. I think that's, that's great. And that can be great for who it is for,

but for millions, uh, they're going to be in Final Fantasy. They're going to be in Rust and there is

power there in creating these experiences in churches and they are churches there. It that's

one also, uh, that's one value that we've learned early on is that church and Rust church and Final

Fantasy is no different than, you know, the church in the corner here in town. Um, and that mindset

really has empowered us to minister where otherwise I think we would have been limited and not have had

the impact, uh, and the outreach if we had a limited mindset, but to approach it as this is real,

just like anything else has set the foundation for us as a church here into the future.

Yeah. And so because it's a real church, because there's, you know, expectations, uh, for, for the

spirit to move because you're, because you're trying to create an ecclesiologically stable church,

you're following after what the Bible calls us to, um, you're, you're, and especially in gaming

environments, you're, you're dealing with a lot of messy situations. I would imagine, Coco,

you've got, you know, I'm just even thinking, uh, pastoral care, um, you know, mental health issues,

counseling issues, um, and even beyond, Hey, my, my baby's sick, just like, you know,

even personal issues that people, people are going through you're forgive me. I'm, I'm not,

I don't spend much time in Final Fantasy at a personal level, but like I said, my, my daughter does

it's, it's, it's text-based communication in Final Fantasy, right? Or is it voice?

Yeah. It's text.

It's text. So how is it pastorally counseling people, diving into deep issues, getting into the,

the mud and the dirt of, of people's lives all with a keyboard? Like, what does that look like? Is

that difficult? Is that frustrating? What does that experience look like?

Um, the, those times of conversations do happen in the chat, but that's more rare. More often,

it's in discord.

Okay.

So discord voice, discord chat, DMs, uh, direct messages.

Talk, um, talk to me a little bit here. Unpack the relationship between, uh, the Final Fantasy and

discord. Like what do you do in Final Fantasy? At what point do you try to connect them to discord?

What do you do in discord? What does that, that process look like?

So lately our new people that have been coming in have been coming in through discord and then

we'll meet in game. Um, that's because they're coming in through discord, through social media,

like we're, they're finding out about it some way. Somebody's telling them or they're seeing

something. And, um, um, I'm terrible at marketing. So I need to do a better job of asking people how

they found out about us that I'm not. But, um, that, so that's mostly how it happens lately is

they're coming in through discord and then we're meeting in game. Um, and then word of mouth in game,

uh, uh, we'll bring more people like, like other, cause it's not just our FC. We've actually started,

um, align with other FCs to free company guild, um, to like do stuff together. So then

their FC will come check out the church, um, service sometime. So, and we'll do stuff together. So

the discord is where we do our, um, like deep conversations. Most of the time we get in voice,

we, our church service is we'll meet in the game with our avatars. And then I'll have discord

voice going where people will just come into the discord voice and listen, and then they can either

speak or they can type. So that it's their option of, cause some people don't want to be on voice and

they'll type. Um, but listen, uh, with, uh, voice and we just give them the freedom of

whatever they're comfortable with and don't try to force them to do something they're not. So.

Yeah. And then I'll be honest. I had no idea you would. Okay. I'm sorry. I had no idea you flipped the,

the, the book, the flip, the script where, where you were recruiting people from discord. Like what,

what are you like if people search for final fantasy on discord, you're one of the servers that pop

up and people get connected to you that way. Um, no, it's through social media really through

like, because we can't, we want to avoid. So we want to avoid like promoting ourselves loudly

inside the game cause we don't want to get banned. So it's outside social media, um, word of mouth.

And, um, um, and then sometimes there will be people in discord joining for VR church and then

they'll look at the channels and they'll say, Oh, I didn't know you played final fantasy.

And then they'll come join final fantasy if it's something they play. So, um, it's

Go ahead, DJ. Uh, uh, I was about to say there is kind of a network effect there. Like as people come

into the VR MMO church experience, they like, Oh, these are different ways that you can experience

church, whether it's rust, you know, FF 14, you know, VR. So there's kind of like a network effect.

And some people have crossed over, you know what I mean? Like I was doing VR, but let me go

do the, let me commit to the MMO church experience and, you know, vice versa. And so there's kind of

like this, uh, community that's being cultivated. Um, you know, Coco mentioned social media and I

think there's a powerful kind of, uh, network network effect there too, because of tick tock,

YouTube people are like, what there's a church in final fantasy. Like, and so I said, I noticed at

least in rust and I'm not sure if FF 14 feels has the same network effect, but, um, you know,

that seed planted early in social media experience will, will bear fruit later. Like you'll see

people come like, I heard about this like two months ago, I'm here now. Like, so there's like

some time, uh, between that first interaction to when they start to experience or visit.

Um, I know people like to watch, um, the final fantasy 14 sermons and discussions, um, if you

will. And, uh, I just think they find it very unique and it's a really, uh, a very unique service.

Like all of them are rec room, VR chat. Now we know we used to be in all space. Uh, rust is

just super unique and final fantasy 14 is, it's a very beautiful service. You go in,

the decorations are just, you know, immaculate. Um, you know, uh, Coco says no, like worship music

per se, but there's like an ambiance of music. And so the whole, um, the whole vibe or the, uh,

the aesthetics are so just calming and inviting. And then just to go in there with, uh, other avatars

that, you know, we're all dressed up and who, cause final fantasy is known for its, its wardrobe.

That's like one of the major elements of final fantasy 14. And so going in there is saving

everyone dressed up. We grabs, we grab a seat. There's creatures because we have pets. They're

all running around and Coco's delivering the message. We're doing discussion. People are doing emojis,

like, you know, pumping their fists, giving thumbs up, you know? Um, and so, yeah, it's,

it's very unique and special and it's something that should definitely be experienced.

Yes. Very cool. Is our, is the spiritual temperature or are they spiritually seeking? Are they cold to

Christ and, and, and coming in to, to make a joke? Are they, uh, already Christian and just wanting to

check out this unique thing? Like who will spiritually, how are people when they first come in to, uh,

to final fantasy church? So I have a mix. Um, some of them already Christian and they're just coming

in because they're already, they have a life in final fantasy. And so why not join a community of, uh,

Christians in there? So there, we do have that. And then we also have Christians who can't find a local

church because they're having a really hard time finding a good local church that they can get involved

in. And so I actually have people from that, um, group. And then there are people who were in a long

time ago in church, but left, and then they'll come and just listen and hang out and, um, not say

anything, um, but they'll listen. And, and then we have, um, it's mostly right now Christians. We do have,

but they're like Christians who have kind of not been involved in local church. Um, um,

interesting. So we're able to reach people that haven't been able to find a good local churches

or that they've kind of like stepped away from those local churches or, um, uh, walked away a long

time ago and are coming to like maybe rediscover. Um, so I'm not really setting a true target audience,

except I want to reach the people that think that this is their, they come to final fantasy for

community. They come to final fantasy to have relationship. Those are the people regardless

of whether they're Christian or not. Um, cause that's what I'm looking for.

Now, as I remember, um, y'all have been around 12 months, 18 months. How long has final fantasy

been open? Um, the church we've unofficially since 2020, but, um, Oh, wow. We officially launched.

What did we officially launched last year or the year before I've lost track?

Oh man. My timeframes are awful. Um, I don't remember. It's, it's been a cup. It's almost

two years. I think maybe officially launched in January of last year.

Okay. So, I mean, you may not have the answer to this. Yes. Figured out. When I asked this

question, most people don't have it figured out. Like, is, is the end game to keep them in, uh,

final fantasy church is, is the end game to help them get connected into a physical church or to,

to grow them to VR church, like in, in rec room or something like what's the, the long-term

spiritual development. I get that question all the time. And so that's the biggest question people ask.

I don't care about whether or not they go to a physical church. What I care about is whether or

not they're growing in Christ. So that's my goal is to get them in a relationship with Christ and get

them to know the real Christ and the real God, not the one that they've been shown by hateful

Christians that push them away from church in the physical world. But, and I could go on about that,

but, um, my goal is to help them grow. That's my goal.

Yeah. We all can go on about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It was interesting because, uh, we think of,

we've kind of had, we're having conversations because there's a lot of evolution happening

with here at MMO church. And one of them is being more shot genre based. So, um, and this is like

early conversations we haven't like, you know, declared or been definitive with this, but like

with rust, you know, uh, there's going to be a shelf life to that at some point, whether it's five

years or so it's going to, it's going to come. Rust two is going to come out. Arc two is coming out.

So these, these different survival experiences. So we're thinking about re I don't know, for lack of

better words, rebranding rust church into survival church, because it's a part of the survival genre

and final fantasy church into MMOs, you know, so it's more like the broader terms. So we can

shift into whatever is new, whatever comes to, you know, down the line. Um, so there's a kind of an

evolving branding or, you know, terminology that we're kind of experimenting with. And then also like,

what do we do? What's our end goal? Do we, are we, cause yeah, it's a great question. Do we,

are we trying to get them into a physical church? Are we trying to get them into a VR church?

I think what Coco's answer has said, uh, just, you know, hits it on the nail. That's our focus.

That's our goal. Um, someone asked me recently about, are you trying to get them into a physical

church? And I was like, well, cause I, and I told him earlier, early on in the interview that we view

ourselves as a church. I said, well, we view ourselves as a church and if they want to get connected

physically, certainly, yeah, let's let me, let me help you do that. But that's not necessarily our goal

because that's what we are. Yeah. As long as they're growing, if they are not growing in a

physical church, which many don't, um, I'd rather than see them grow. And we have met each other in

real life. It's like, I've met just recently one of my final fantasy people in real life because they

were driving through, um, on their way somewhere else. And so it's, we're still able to connect in

the real life when we can, but it's that relationship. Unpack that for me. That's, that's interesting.

So video game, digital goes physical, uh, video game. Somebody's driving through stops by coffee,

lunch, whatever house. Um, what was it weird? Was it awkward? Was it like, you've known each other

forever? Was it different than, than a digital? Like I just, I would like to know what that interaction

was like. It was weird, but good. It's like, I enjoyed meeting them in person, getting to know

them better. Cause there are things that you talk about in game that you're not going to talk about

in real life and vice versa. So just getting to know, um, it was actually two people that came

through and, um, we met for lunch and it's like, I've always associated them with their avatar.

So what you mean? You're not a dragon girl in real life. What? So you look completely different.

That's right. So it's just that weird, your, your brain associating your, cause you, we identify

people by how they look. Right. Um, I know DJ bike cause it's face that's DJ. Um, and you by your face,

you're Jeff. Um, so whenever, but whenever you're all digital and only ever see people's avatars,

that's how you identify them. And then, so making that mental connection is weird in real life.

It's so good. It's, it's interesting. You know, there, there's been several digital ministries,

you know, I'm, I'm even thinking Jason polling up at a cornerstone, he's cornerstone Yuba city,

but they do VR. Like they've, they've had a physical meetup for the digital church where they,

where they're a virtual reality church, where all people fly over from all over the country,

all over the world. They fly into, uh, uh, with San Francisco, I guess, and to, to Jason's physical

church to, to meet up. And so I do, I love stories when, when that goes, when that happens, but,

but it's interesting there's because you're so comfortable in digital space. Oftentimes there's

some awkward entity. I don't know if that's a word, but some awkwardness, uh, in that first physical,

uh, interaction. I've heard that, uh, quite a, quite a bit. So very, very cool. Um, DJ,

tell me a hundred percent, not a word. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate that. You know,

also it's not a word, how I pronounce your last name, Mark, your name is not pronounced the way

that I say it. And we're going to just say, call that out right now. Um, I also, also true. I have no

idea how to pronounce a four letter word that I should be able to say easily. Okay. Hey,

so here's the question I wanted to ask. Um, DJ, like, so you've been in these two worlds and I'm not

calling you out. You're a very aggressive guy. Um, but you've been in these two worlds for a while.

Uh, have you experimented with, with other games? Uh, why are you just in these two? Is it resourcing?

Is, is it people? Is it like, what's, what's been the bottleneck for you to get past the two?

Yeah. So, uh, you know, short answer is we're always experimenting. Um, since at the, you know,

a lot of us are gamers, we're in and out of all different types of experiences, even if we're just

checking it out, we had a very strong, uh, you know, movement towards black desert online early

on when we were thinking about MMO church. Um, and it really, it, I think one of the answers is it

does come down to resources and, you know, manpower. Do we have the, the hours during the week to,

you know, maintain a ministry? Well, um, do we have, you know, at least some fundamental finances to,

you know, uh, establish at least a central experience so that we could support these

ministries in VRMMO churches. So, um, unofficially it goes through like a little bit of a curation

process. Like, is the platform good? Uh, does it cultivate community? Um, do we have people

for it? And so ideally when it came down to us for us at VRMMO church, our community's passion for

rust and then our community's passion for FF14 really was the kind of like deciding factor,

even though we would love to be in Warcraft. Um, I think there could be an amazing arc experience

with the dinosaurs, um, that you could do on a PVE server. I would love to do that. Uh, we were also

experimenting with a GT, uh, GTA online Grand Theft Auto would, would have loved to plan a church in,

uh, Los Santos. Um, and, but at the end of the day, we were limited, so to speak,

and not necessarily in a bad way, but just, and what's good for us to plant the churches where we

did. Um, always keeping an eye on what's new, what's coming when new worlds came out or eyeing

that up. Um, you know, just as in a, uh, just a generic evaluation, like what does this have to

offer? Is this any good? Um, and so I think at our, at our core, at the heart of our leadership

for the elders of your MMO church, we're experimenters, we're gamers, and we like to explore. So we're always

looking at stuff. And I think there's a lot of wisdom with the team to know what, what, what our

limits are at. And Coco does a good job of kind of counting the, you know, the, how many energy

points we have to do something. And so, um, yeah, I think if we had, uh, unlimited, you know,

resources, manpower, we would be in three to four, three to five experiences by next month. Um, but, uh,

we're just taking it one step at a time. No, I totally get that.

It's good to focus on one and build the community in there too, because you could spread yourself too

thin and then also not do a good job of building the community and the ones that you do have.

And something DJ said a very long time ago when I first started meeting with him was if we can't

serve two people well, how are we going to serve 20 to 200 people well? Right. Um, we need to be able

to serve the few that we do have before we start expanding anywhere else.

Good call. If this may be too personal a question to ask, um, what, what's the operating budget?

Like how much money does it, how much does it cost to run Final Fantasy Church? I mean,

you can set aside salaries or I don't know how any of that works, but would love some insight.

Um, so there's a couple of ways to look at it and cause it's an evolving conversation about

finances and VR church. Cause at, at one point we were there, we, we had a fairly funding element

where we could stipend to a certain degree, like teachers and stuff like that, as things have dived

off the cliff, you know, uh, economically, uh, you know, for tech companies, they're cutting back.

You can imagine if they're having trouble, the metaverse gamer churches is, is certainly having

trouble as well, uh, economically. And I'm speaking very generically. So for us,

us, um, we're really running on, uh, like 99% of volunteer driven ministry. Um, so there are no

costs associated to it, except, um, actually people are putting money into it, into it. So,

you know, like Coco, I'm assuming you're, you're paying for your, obviously you're paying for your

subscription too. You know, that's something that, you know, one day the church hopes to,

you know, cover as she's the pastor of, of, of the experience. So, um, well, as it looks, I probably

had a different answer for you last year. This year, uh, VRMMO church is going to be a volunteer

driven ministry. Um, so when it comes to how much is it going to, if a leader was going to ask me,

how much is it going to cost to plant a church in this gaming thing we're going to do? Our answer

would be nothing. Just go do it. Um, but I know maybe sometimes churches want a line item behind

that. So, but that's not something that I think we would get because we're, we've even kind of dialed

in our ministry to be volunteer driven, which I think is very unique. Uh, could be better. It could

be for worse. It's just what it is at the moment. Yeah. There's, there's certainly opportunities to go,

you know, we, we talk a lot about bivocational ministry, uh, where you've got somebody who's got

a nine to five job and, and ministries on the side, they're not, they're not getting a salary from it.

That, that actually is, is a growing trend, uh, that we're seeing, especially among new churches

and new church planters where the idea, I mean, listen, we're at a borderline recession. There,

there's economies about the crash, artificial intelligence is everybody wigging out. Um,

you know, what the, the, the economy, the, the business models of tomorrow, um, you know,

donor-based churches are, are, are going to struggle. Uh, and so even there's even conversations

among church leaders on how to become multi-stream. And so the more of that multi-stream of, of incomes,

and so the more that churches can, can start to move towards a bivocational, towards a volunteer

driven model, um, that is going to be so much more effective and so much more. I mean, money's not

the lid. Um, in, in, in many ways, money becomes the lid, but if, as you're able to cast vision and

recruit more leaders to expand more, like, I love what you're doing to me. That's the most encouraging

thing that I've heard is, yeah, we can do this. And we're doing this with, with volunteers. We're

casting vision and getting them to, to buy into it. And so that's, I would rather if you said that,

then yeah, we've got like a $2 million budget. That would be discouraging. Uh, so yeah, I know that's

hard, but we're doing it. Yeah, no, it is, it is hard. And we've had, we've had a lot of tough

conversations, um, all around that. And, um, I think we're really proud of the team for where

we're at right now, because we've created a sustainable rhythm for, uh, for the foreseeable

future. Uh, whereas before it was really reliant on a particular like outcomes and monetary giving,

but now that it's dialed in, in a certain way, it, if you are MMO church will never go away. Uh,

you know, it won't close down because of funding, it would always exist. Um, and so I think that's super

unique. I don't, I don't, I think there's a part of it that's uncomfortable because you, you do want

like some good funding, but like you said, the, the recession giving is down. Um, if a tech companies

are having a problem and they're for profit, can you imagine what nonprofits are going through? Can

you imagine what non nonprofits are going through? I'm talking about us over here at the bottom

end of the pool, you know, we're a gamer church, metaverse church. It's not like people are lining up

to, you know, you know, the nominations aren't lining up to give. Right. So, um, no, I think it's

hard and, but I also think it's beautiful. So it's built. It's a bittersweet.

And we've had to make that acknowledgement that we're going to have to get our income somehow,

some other way. Like, yeah, I saw your stream on co-vocation versus bi-vocational with,

I don't remember who it was you were talking to Jeff, but, um, I saw that one and it's like,

got me thinking about this. Yeah. We're going to have to accept that. This is, this is not a

staff driven thing. We're going to have to work outside of the church to get our money.

Yeah. There's, and that's, that's a cold reality that even like successful large churches are

wrestling with at this point. Um, the, the, the ministry model for funding is changing right

right before our eyes and the ones that, that can adapt towards it. Um, and, and, and how that works.

And, and, but the other, the other aspect of bi-vocational is how to be really in the, in DCN,

like my nonprofit, uh, the, the church planting organization is, is, I mean, we gotta, I'll just

be blunt right here. We got a $20,000 grant last year. Um, and then we had donor giving, which was,

uh, helpful, but it was minimal in the grand scheme of things. And so like, we're not,

we're not rolling in cash by any stretch. As a matter of fact, I probably have five jobs

that pay for the ministry of the church, digital, digital church network and my house and everything.

Like I'm paying a lot out of my, my pocket, but how to be successful in bi-vocational,

as I talked with planters and pastors who, who are successful in bi-vocational, it's, it's not slowed

down. It's recruit more leaders and disperse more and break out more and release more responsibility.

Uh, and so that, that's really has been the challenge for us as we're running DCN is not,

you know, there's not, there are seasons where I feel like, oh, Jeff just needs to work harder.

Uh, yeah, let me go ahead and put in that 80 hour week. Um, but that's not, that's not sustainable.

That's not helpful. Um, and, and, and instead it's been, okay, maybe we need to slow down, but maybe I

need to recruit some people, cast vision, train them and release them. And so for me, uh, I just,

cause I, I just, I love being aggressive. Um, it's, it's been how, how can I recruit and train and

develop, uh, apprentice people to release them? Uh, man, this has been a great conversation.

But by what I'm seeing, DJ, I want to, I want to ask one question and this is, this is weird.

So let me, let me set it up. Um, it's in my, in my re and actually this isn't even me. This came out

of sprout digital. I think you talked with them, uh, Jared, uh, Jared and, and Roth, their research

company talking to digital churches, uh, and, and virtual reality churches. One of the, one of the few,

although it's increasing really research reports coming out on what's happening in, in digital only

church and, and metaverse church. Uh, and according to them, they came up with five different categories

of, of digital churches, um, social media churches, influencer churches, virtual reality

churches, metaverse churches, uh, combined kind of there. Um, they did, um, gamer church is a new

category that just came in. And then the fifth would be a physical church doing digital ministry.

So what I'm saying is that they separated VR and gamer church into two separate categories.

It's interesting. Like this has been actually a source of contention, um, recently as we've

delved more into gamer churches and working more with virtual reality churches where there's a lot of

similarities. There's a lot of differences. Um, and, and I just, I just wanted to ask the guy that

literally is doing a church that is across these two categories. Like, do you see them more as

similar? Do you see them? Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, talk to me a little bit, um, actually all four,

four of the categories are all the same. It's about influencer, social media, VR gaming. You could

put all that into one. Cause that's essentially what we do for, uh, I don't want to use the word if we're

doing it well, but that's a great model. If we're, let's just use that language, not despair, not being

disrespectful to anybody else, but to do it well with, to be an influencer, um, on social media, who's

doing the, and then you can combine those gamer and VR because those are essentially the same. Like when

you look at all space or VR chats, basically a game, it's like, uh, let's take VR chat. That's on

steam that that's considered a game you download, but we it's a VR social experience that you could

call it metaverse. So those two categories I think are, are one. And then as a ministry,

we're doing the social media and the influencing, and that's a powerful kind of effect. So to me,

it's all one in the same, at least for us and how we express it. It's all one in the same. Um,

I wouldn't have separated those, but that's just me by perspective. Yeah. I was, I was having a

conversations with a global missions organization. We were talking about this and, um, he, he was,

he was very, no, no, no, it's one. I was like, no, no, no, it's two. And, and so it was interesting.

And it's all, it's all new. It was funny. They just came out with a report. Well, it was like November

of last year, like gaming, gaming or gamer church was not on the radar of, of, of anybody of this

research in 21. Like it didn't, it didn't even make the report. And, and they, they released an

updated on, on, it was more discipleship in 22, what avenues talking discipleship. And that's when

they're like, Hey, we've discovered this fourth category that's gamers. And, uh, which really kind

of brought this opportunity of explosion of, of awareness of what's going on in gamer churches and

what, what Mark and Bubba and, and Jate and, and all these guys are, are, are working on and

you and what you're championing, even in your worlds, even in these, these specific games,

like it's, it's encouraging to me because as a general rule, we've reached different people

by doing these different things. And so seeing the success and, um, I keep wanting to say Black

Desert, you guys need to launch into Black Desert. I just, I'm like, get into Black Desert.

That's your sixth job, Jeff, is Black Desert.

Actually, now that you describe it that way, like, like, so let's say for us in the metaverse,

deep in deep, let's just say we're deep in web three, deep in the metaverse. Those are all the

same. But I think now you, when I hear you talking about it, it makes a really good point

when you're communicating, let's say to the older generation, to the older church leadership. I think

perhaps using the term gamer church as a distinctive could be helpful. And yeah, maybe like you said,

bringing awareness, connecting them with the vision that there is people in their church are

ripe to, to start these ministries and Minecraft, Roblox, Rec Room, all those types of things.

So at first I was like, no, they're all the same. That doesn't make sense to me. But now I go, okay,

I can see how at a communicative level for those that were not birthed in this, like you think of our,

our current church leaders, and with all respect, they were birthed from seminaries who were void

of any of this, any of this topic. Like Jesus Gamers in the church, I look at this title here,

that was not a class that they took in seminary, right? It might be in the near future. So they've

either had to evolve or grow into it. So I think that that language could be helpful,

even though at first I was like, oh, I don't know about that. So yeah.

Yeah. I long for the day when church can just be church and we don't have to call out physical,

digital, micro, metaverse, gaming. When we're all accepted and we're all working towards a great

commission, that will be a great day. Until then, we have to have these labels to educate.

And so that's, that's my, my hope through it. And so, hey, listen, this has been a great podcast.

Pastor Coco, Pastor DJ Soto, the Bishop of the Metaverse. Thanks for jumping on this podcast.

And this, this live stream and joining in, uh, we're going to be doing this next week,

Thursday, 3:00 PM Eastern for the love of all that's within me. I cannot remember who's going

to be on next week. Um, I, you know what I think, I think we're digging into mental health and gaming

and church. Uh, we're, we're bringing in, um, the American association of Christian counselors

coming in and we're, we're talking about how to deal with neurodivergent issues in, in gaming and in,

in, in, in, in this coordinate and digital communities. And so really we're, listen, we're,

we're digging into the deep end next week. It's going to be a great podcast, great stream.

We're looking forward to being a part of it, but we're going to land a plane, uh, for Pastor Coco,

for Pastor DJ. Uh, my name is Jeff at the church digital, digital church network. Thanks for jumping

on the stream here. Appreciate y'all. Y'all have a good day. Bye.