EP269 - Neil Cole & Applying Church 3.0 to Digital Churches

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple-making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, once again, founder of

the Church Digital, co-founder, Digital Church Network. And oh, by the way, I work for Leadership

Network, which is completely relevant right here, right off the top, because we're bringing in a

guy that historically has done some work with Leadership Network. And I'm really excited about

this conversation we're going to get into. Now, Neil Cole, who is the guest on today's show,

wrote a book that was hugely influential in my life. We had Leonard Sweet on a couple months ago,

talking about Soul Tsunami, which was another one of these books that really just hit me at the right

time. And Neil Cole's Church 3.0. Man, listen, if you're going to ask me which one was more

influential, Neil Cole or Leonard Sweet, I'm going to have a hard time answering that question. My wife

would probably say Leonard Sweet. I think when we really look at the decentralized mindset of really

what's come, especially now in this post-COVID environment, as we're seeing where digital and

metaverse church plants get out there. Man, Neil Cole and Church 3.0 was incredible. And so it was

funny, on Facebook, just even a couple weeks ago, I was having a conversation about some of the things

in Neil Cole's book. We'll get into this Church 3.0 that was published 2010. I guess it's been a minute

since it's been around. And it's still getting talked about on social media. And so I'm reliving

some of this and digging in with some other microchurch guys. And it just occurred to me,

why don't we get Neil Cole on the podcast? And Neil was gracious enough to actually say yes to the

conversation. And so, ladies and gentlemen, I want to invite Neil Cole into the conversation.

Hey, Neil, how are you doing today?

I'm doing good. Thank you, Jeff, for inviting me.

Awesome. It's a pleasure to have you on here. And I'm so excited. I'm so giddy

right now about this. I can feel myself like talking way too fast. I feel like I'm the

micromachines guy, just rolling, rolling, rolling. But I got to slow it down a little bit. So I

apologize. But this is an honor to have you on. Also bringing into the conversation,

Jason Morris, JMO, formerly from Westside Family, from Resi and Pushpay. Jason, thanks for jumping on.

Yeah, it's an honor to be a part of this conversation. Can't wait.

So Neil Cole's book was very formative in my life. And I'll set this up and we'll actually get into the

conversation. But coming off of a megachurch environment, reading that book in my early 30s,

seeing some of the opportunities of the mega and the multi, but also seeing some of the obstacles and

challenges of that. Neil's book 3.0 was written in 2010, probably before, definitely before its time.

Like today is actually a day where I think Neil's book is powerful and impactful. It was almost a

profit early on when he was talking about this stuff because it was so forward thinking, but not yet

really, I don't know, attainable, achievable, whatever the verb you want to throw there is.

And so it was just a very powerful book. It was published by Leadership Network at the time. And

there's so many other titles under Ellen that came out in that season. Like even when I think back to

when I had the bookstore, which is a whole other story, some of the books that were published and

some of the opportunities we had to help churches through it. But Neil, I would love to maybe just

open up with you here as you look back on church 3.0 and there's, there's plenty of other books we

can dig into. Organic church was awesome as well. Others that, that, that you hit on. Um, what is

the, when you think back on church 3.0, is it, is it fond memories? Is it frustrating memories? Like

this is a decade plus down the road. What's your knee jerk thought when you think about, uh,

the experience and maybe some of the response when it comes to, uh, church 3.0, the book?

Well, yeah, mostly it's positive. Um, I, uh, writing the book was really kind of a fun thing. I had a

contract with a deadline and it was coming quick and, uh, and that's a book that required a whole lot of

research. You had to have lots of, uh, footnotes of, of things. And it couldn't just be, uh, cursory

footnotes. So you kind of had to dig deep in order to substantiate what you were claiming it, or you were

going to get laughed out of the building. So, uh, I asked the Lord to help me with that. And he did,

uh, he brought research right to me from all kinds of angles in different places. And I even had some

like, like this was the, uh, there's a part where I talk about multi-site in the book and the multi-site

was a big, uh, phenomenon at the time. However, there wasn't any, it wasn't going long enough that

there were any books on it. And lo and behold, right when I'm writing on that chapter, a, a pre-published

manuscript shows up in my mailbox on multi-site for an endorsement. And so I had current data

on multi-site before it was even published. And I had a guy come to my door who, uh, was here to fix

plumbing. And he had a story that ended up in the book. It was like, I asked God for help and he said,

here you go. And he just kept bringing me all the information I needed when I needed it. So that

was a real fond memory. I wrote the book basically to answer every question I always get asked about

organic church, but I used the book as an excuse to talk about movements. And, and so the book is

really about movements, but it also, it's in the form of question and answer. Um, so that's, that's all

fond memories. We were doing it. Our, our movement was doubling every year during that time. Uh, and

still to this day, it's gone beyond that, uh, all over the world. Uh, but yeah, no, mostly all fond

memories of the book. Um, and I enjoyed my relationship with leadership network. I have four books that came out

with them. Um, and this was the second one. So it was, there was organic church that I remember, uh,

church 3.0. What were the other two? I'm just curious. Church transfusion, uh, which I coauthored

with the shepherd on my APES team, uh, about how to bring, um, missional DNA and multiplication

to an established church, uh, traditional church. Nobody's very few have read that book. And they

don't think of me as even believing that's possible. Uh, but I did write a book about doing it. So

it was refuted by the facts, but anyway, and then I also wrote what some people believe to be my best

book ever was journeys with them. But that, um, that book was so not read that it went out of print

almost a few years after it was put out. So I've bought, I've gotten back the rights from leadership

network. I've revised it. I changed it to reach a more younger audience and, um, it's in the hands

of the editor right now. So I hope by summer it's out. Oh, that's cool. So, so you're republishing,

uh, journeys, uh, re-releasing it and, and you reshaped it to reach a younger audience.

Exactly. Very, very cool. So let's, let's talk a little bit, you know, what you said, uh, church

3.0 aimed a lot at movement and, uh, through, you don't know this, but with digital church network,

the nonprofit that, that I started Jason's working with, we're actually working very closely with

new thing network to utilizing their movement system, uh, helping by vocational people, normal

people like nine to five people, not seminary trained pastors, learn how to create disciples,

uh, grow them into leaders that are planting churches that are developing networks and starting

movements. And so we're, when we look at digital metaverse space, we actually see movement and the

opportunity to contextualize movement, to reach people that are not interested in going into physical

buildings. That's the, that's really the heart of, of what we're trying to do through

digital church network. I would love to hear a little bit, talk to me a little bit about your

movement, the movement that you were doing during the time that you wrote the book, what that maybe

has grown to and evolved to now. Uh, obviously it's not digital or maybe it's probably not digital,

but tell me a little bit about what that looks like, you know, even today.

Well, certainly there are digital components to it. There's interaction, there's, uh,

training online, things like that, but no, I wouldn't say we're a digital church expression

yet. Um, or I shouldn't say, no, there's not, there probably is that, but it's not foremost or

prominent. Um, not yet at least. So the movement has spread. We were doubling every year for a while.

And I think, um, uh, it's continued at that pace, but I can't verify that. So that's just a gut

feeling. Um, I'd have to hire, I would have had to early on hire someone full-time just to track the

churches. And I never, I never, I never thought that was a worthwhile expense. So we just gave up on

that. Another thing we did early on is we decided not to put a brand on everything and not to, uh,

monetize the movement, which, uh, I think God honored that and allowed the movement to spread like it did.

But at the same time, without doing that, those steps, uh, it meant some of us behind the scenes

would, would probably be more vulnerable to financial problems and things like that.

We swallowed that pill. Uh, interesting thing to hear is that, uh, 12 years ago journeys came out

that book I just talked about. It's, it's following the whole story of Paul from birth to death and

looking at how he evolved as a leader so that he finished strong. It's about spiritual formation,

but also showing you the lessons he learned to catalyze greater movements and spread further till he's,

uh, reaching the whole world basically. Um, so that's journeys. And when that book came out,

it's always a special moment for the author. When the book comes in the mail and you actually hold it

in your hand for the first time. And that moment I received that book, I held it in my hand at that

very moment. I heard this Holy spirit speak to me saying, I'm going to take you through a difficult

transition. He didn't tell me how long it would be. He didn't tell me why he didn't tell me what it would

look like, but immediately, uh, things fell into place where funding dropped out and that was supposed

to be there. And we had to let go of my staff and, uh, we had to close our offices. We closed our website

down. We shut down the entire business of CMA, which stood for church multiplication associates,

which I found it. And we basically pulled the plug on our organization. Now, because we had made the

decision to not monetize the movement and not branded and, and not make it dependent upon our

organization. Uh, the movement thrived when the business collapsed. Uh, so that was a good move.

Yeah. And, uh, uh, uh, this transition that he brought me through is 12 years and it just ended

last summer. So, uh, for 12 years, he told me not to speak at conferences publicly, not to, um,

stop doing social media except he allowed me to post pictures of waterfalls in my travels or pictures

of beautiful grandkids, but no content. Sure. Uh, I could travel and do training and conferences

anywhere in the world, except the United States. I even could do a training across the border in Canada

that I couldn't do in the other side. So it was kind of, it was kind of weird, but he shut me

down, put me on pause for 12 years. I could not find a job. Uh, I applied to, I applied to one job

that probably there are three people in the world that are as qualified as I am for the job.

And I told him I do it for half the price and I still didn't get the job. So it was a weird thing.

I even applied for Walmart to stock shelves and couldn't get a job there. Um, so it was, uh, a weird time.

God was saying, no, I don't want you to work. I don't want you to, uh, do anything public except

overseas, but in the States. And that went on after seven years. I thought, okay, seven is a perfect

number. Now it's time for it to end. It didn't end. And after, after 10 years, I said, okay, Paul has

spent 10 years in Tarsus. I did my 10 years. Is it up? He said, no. Then COVID hit and it was 12 years.

So it was 12 years of being on pause. And there's a lot of probably, there's a lot of reasons behind

that, but I was allowed to continue writing books and did so. Um, but the sales of my books dropped

off considerably.

What was, and I don't want to get too deep if this is too sensitive, but what was the, what was the

main lesson? What was the, what was the thing that, that God was, was, if you're comfortable

sharing this, that, that God was trying to tell you through, through 12 years?

Yeah. Cause you said you came out of it.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think both Jeff and I have had those, um, dark moments of the soul.

I'm grateful that it didn't last for 12 years, you know, but, you know, I understand the feeling

and wanting it to be over and God, you know, asking you to hang on a little bit longer, man.

One thing, you know, is impressive to me is like, I think there's few people in the world

that God wouldn't trust 12 years to of that. You know, that says a lot for you. Cause I know

I probably couldn't handle it.

I haven't really thought of it like that. I just simply, well, you know, you go through

the human things, you start thinking, well, what did I do wrong, Lord? And he would always

respond by saying, no, no, this is not discipline. Although if you want to clean this up, you can,

and you could fix this if you want, there's always room for improvement, but this was not

about discipline. And then I'd say, well, okay, what's the lesson Lord? Just tell me the lesson

so we can end this. And he says, well, it's not that kind of lesson. Uh, but if you want,

here's some things you can learn, but that's not what this is about. Um, in the end, I think

it really was about, you know, he says, Jesus says in John 15, those who are bearing fruit,

he will prune so that they will bear more fruit. And so really it was about, uh, working on in my

life to created me a different kind of, uh, maybe a different sort of, uh, it sounds almost trite to

say maturity level, but it's sort of more of a perspective of the world and of myself that is,

that is, uh, necessary for what's coming. And I'll tell you something, I'm working a lot with young

people. Wait, wait, wait, I got to stop there for a minute. You say necessary for what's coming.

You know, a lot of, I feel like the things that you've written have been highly prophetic

before their time. So when you say prepares for what's coming, my ears perk up. Cause I want to

know what that is. And maybe we can put a pin in that so you can finish your thing, but we need to

get back to that. We'll bring it back up again. You know, I work right now with a lot of young

people, even college students. And when I tell them this happened for 12 years, imagine from their

point of view. Uh, that's like, that's more than half their life, half their life.

So it was a, it was a long time, but it was worthwhile, I think. And, um, I've come out of

it a little different, you know, I'm, I'm less impressed by some people and more aware of others

that I normally wouldn't have been. I cry more easily. I, um, I think I'm, um, uh, I'll tell you

something. When all that happened, we had, we started off that 12 years, we had saved, uh, almost

$20,000 because my daughters were getting at marriage age and they were both getting close to

that. So we were saving up for the weddings and, uh, all that disappeared, uh, within a

summer trying to support staff and stuff as we found, move them on. And then there's a lot

of things happen where there's this debt that would have been minimal for the organization

and are all transferred to me. So I went from having savings to having the debt of the same

amount. Um, but for those 12 years, there's not a single bill that was never paid on time

and the weddings were beautiful. I couldn't have paid any more money to make them better.

Uh, that it was a wonderful experience. And out of it all, I came out a different person. In fact,

one of the things that changed me the most is, uh, I went from zero to five grandkids in three

years and putting on grandpa, what we call what my kids call Papa, um, my grandkids, I became Papa.

It felt like that was a role I was born to do that. I didn't even realize until it happened.

So all of that came out of that 12 years. It was all worthwhile. Um, I wouldn't wish it on anyone,

but the results I think are good. I think things that are to come, um,

um, that God has been, uh, you know, it says in the Bible that judgment begins in the household of

God. And so there's been a judgment going on for the past three to five years where he's lifting the

roof off of the church and turning the light and shining it down and saying, here's what's actually

happening in these churches. And so the largest denominations are being exposed for a lot of ugly

things. The largest church, the most prolific large church in America was, leadership was exposed.

The largest church in the world, the pastor was arrested. The largest church in Singapore,

the pastor was arrested. The largest church in Australia. All it goes, it just keeps going.

Uh, all of this is God's judgmental household of God. And I think we're coming to the end of that.

I think that's been done. And next is an awakening of young people. And it's going to be a movement

where it's going to be carried on the shoulders of young people. I believe it will be like

similar to the Jesus people movement. And ironically, right now there's a movie out at the movie theaters

about the Jesus people movement. I know my wife and I are going to watch it tonight.

I think we are seeing a birth of something new, but I don't think the, the new wine will be,

will be thrust into the old wine skins, like what happened with the Jesus people movement.

And, uh, I think that they will have different language, different, although alternative,

they will still be spiritual values that come from truth and love, but they will look very

different in the way they behave to the way our, our parents and grandparents, their, their parents

and grandparents behaved as Christians. I think their language will be more coarse.

I think they will, uh, not be as upset about someone smoking a cigarette or even smoking weed.

I think those kinds of things are going to be evident in the new movement and probably

will put a target on it, but I don't think there will be any amusician in the cannons that are fired

at it. So the new movement will birth something totally, totally new that we haven't seen before

that will be more decentralized. It'll be non-hierarchical, purely relational, not even

organizational. They won't even need a 501c3. There won't be that it'll just be person to person.

Uh, it'll, it'll spread quickly. It will be, uh, about me, Jesus, and you in relationship.

And I think that's going to happen. And I think that's what God was preparing me for,

for 12 years. You know, we're, we're already seeing a lot of that come, uh, about where we're,

we're seeing, I mean, to be honest, I have had conversations six, 700 times at this point

with normal people that want to plant a expression, a digital expression of a church, not no seminary

training, no sending organization or denomination, no funding. Hey, Jeff, I have this crazy idea about

what discipleship can look like digitally. Uh, am I, am I crazy? Am I, am I, am I, am I, is this

possible? And literally like these conversations have happened over the past three years. And those

first conversations were, yeah, maybe you are crazy, but go and give it a shot to at this point. Now,

when I have these conversations, oh man, there's, there's like two or three people that are doing

the similar thing. Can I introduce you to them? Maybe the two of you, you can talk like we're seeing this,

this come about, uh, and 75% of the people, 80% of the people are, are bivocational. And so it's,

it's this new, new priesthood and the priesthood of all believers, reembracing that idea, uh,

contextualizing the message of it. It's, it's, it's so good. Neil, I want to encourage you with this.

We have this saying, uh, through, through digital church network and, and, and maybe this is overstating,

but it fits with us. We're kind of weird people sometimes it's, and it's, and it's pioneers get

shot. Settlers get rich. And, um, you know, in, in, in, in my ministry life, and it sounds like Neil

with yours, uh, man, we've been pioneers and not that I'm even trying to compare myself to, to what

you've gone through within the past 12 years, but we are in this season of, if we're thinking

different, well, the, the organized church doesn't like change. And so taking shots, removing, uh,

discarding, displacing that often happens. Uh, and I know it does in my life and it sounds like it's

had in yours. And so, man, I want to thank you just the upfront here. Thanks for taking some of those

shots. Uh, thanks for taking some of those bullets and, and allowing others to come behind you.

Cause the, the micro church movement, the decentralized movement, a lot of what you were

talking about 10, 12, 13 years ago, it's not a pipe dream anymore. Like the established church may

not recognize its validity, but for the people that are in that field, the goers that are going,

man, they're, they're seeing fruit as a result of a lot of what you laid out a decade plus ago.

Right. I see that. I see that and I rejoice.

Yeah. There's some times where I'll be in a room full of people and, uh, at 10 Oh two,

their phones will go off and they won't have any clue that that traces back through me. Um,

or they'll, you know, and they'll just, they'll pray, attend to be prayer. And, and I'm sitting

there and they, they'll, they'll, they'll tell me about it. Or I've had experiences where someone

will say, you should, you, you should try life transformation groups. This is how it works.

And they don't know that I developed that. So it, it's kind of a fun thing to do. Uh, but you're

right. Pioneers get shot. Neil, what I find fascinating, um, even in the season as difficult as it is,

I, there's, there's, there's, there's facets of this that I just can't help, but see connections

with like what Jeff was talking about with the express, the digital expressions that we get a

chance to be a part of because, you know, we all have the same mission really, because Jesus gave it

to us. There isn't, or at least shouldn't be a lot of question around that, but the ministry model that

we lay on top of the great commission that has a funding model on top of that, right? Those are the

things that are adjustable. And what we're finding is the ministry model digitally is so lean that if you

don't have to pay a mortgage, what do you need a 501c3 for? Right? If you don't, it just takes so much of

the organizational overhead off of the plate and allows people to minister in a way that is probably

more primal that we find in scripture that it, it just unlocks things for people to, to express Jesus

church in different ways. And what I find fascinating is what we're experiencing right now is just what

you have paved the way for over the past 12 years, where, you know, there is no funding model. There is

no business model. And arguably that's not the point because Jesus didn't have a 501c3 either.

Right? So it's taking us back to our, the first love, taking us back to our primal roots of what

Jesus actually taught us to do and let the business model be what it would emerge or become or need to

be as needed. But let's not start with that. Let's start with, with, with what Jesus wants to do

in this time, post COVID, postmodern, you know, and I, I'm right with you, man. I feel like this new

generation is experiencing revival and, and exploring new expressions of his church that Jesus is building.

And it just fires me up.

I think so. I, you know, I was just talking, I was just in Thailand last week and one of the leaders

I was with, I just happened to mention that there won't be organizations in the future of the movement.

And that just didn't compute. There's just no way, I can't even imagine a Christianity

without organizations. I mean, how can you even be Christianity if you don't have an organization

is the way he was thinking? And I said, well, read the book of Acts.

There you go. It's, it's possible. I just think that the, those who are institutionalized and their

entire identity and source of support comes from the institution that just can't even imagine it.

And if you bring it up, it's, it's too much. They just don't want to hear it. And I think that's

pretty common and normal. But for those who aren't institutionalized, it, it becomes good news.

And it's, it's, it'll be great for the gospel to be good news again.

Because for a long time, it hasn't been that. It's been something else.

Yeah, totally with you. It reminds me of the reaction of the priests and Pharisees when Jesus said,

Oh, you know, I'm going to tear down this temple and rebuild it, you know, and it's going to be a

temple that you don't understand. And because of that statement, they killed him because they just

could not conceive of a relationship with God in any other way.

I guess that makes Jesus a pioneer.

He did get killed for it. So I, you know, I, I, I guess so, you know, it's, it's, it's funny,

Neil, like as I was, I was flipping back through the book, um, preparing for, for the podcast.

And I ran across this quote and like this paragraph summarizes exactly what I, and, and what,

what I believe JMO, Jason sees digital church as, and the potential of it. And so I'm literally

quoting from your book 13 years ago, uh, the change to church 3.0 is a shift from a program-driven

and clergy-led institutionalized approach of church to one that is relational, simple,

and viral in its spread. Instead of seeing church as something that serves its people,

church becomes people who serve God, one another, and a hurting world. The change is from organization

to an organism that is healthy and reproductive. Church is no longer a place to go, but a people

to belong to. Church is no longer an event to be at, but a family to be part of. Church is not a program

to reach out to the world, but a people that bring the kingdom of God with them into a lost world with

a contagious spirit. Like my heart for what digital churches can be, you wrote 13 years ago in this

thing. And it's like, as I'm falling back and this is like, oh my gosh, like it's, it's so beautiful

how this comes together. So, um, let me ask you this, you know, and you know, I'm taking your words,

I'm applying it into a different context, which is stretching a little bit, which is fine. I mean,

that's, that's why we write books, right? We write books so that other people can contextualize it and

reshape it. As you look back on your book on specifically church 3.0, what did you nail?

What did you feel like? Hey, you know what? 2023, we are seeing this right now. And is there anything,

if you could be honest, is there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I was way off base with

that one. Um, what, what do you think? You know, uh, I've been asked, would I write church 4.0?

Well, no, I, I think, I think we did off, off air, but that may be another, another conversation.

Yeah, I was, so, uh, no, I don't think we've really fully accomplished church 3.0 yet, um, to,

to upgrade to 4.0. But I think, uh, I wouldn't write a new book or change that much of church 3.0,

but I might add a new chapter because I, I think, uh, what we will ultimately discover,

and it will be church 3.0 in its fullest expression is that we respond more like a

murmuration of starlings than even a, uh, uh, a network of sorts so that, so that it's much more

like a school of fish that just responds immediately and moves as one, even though it's all these small

parts. I think that in the future, that will be the organic expression of the kingdom of God,

and you won't be able to find a discernible network. What you'll find is that everybody

listens to Jesus and does what he says immediately. And it's supernatural almost. And I think we will

need that because the world itself is quickly going dark and hostile, and it will be hostile specifically

to those who are in Christ. And I think the persecution that will come from that, uh,

will be of a nature that no one, no Christian has ever faced because, you know, like in previous

persecution, you're, you're hoping your neighbor or your great aunt don't turn you in. But today,

your Samsung TV will turn you in. Your, your smartphone is already feeding them inside information

about your life. And they know more about you already than you know about yourself. And so the persecution,

you, you, we will need to live a more supernatural life to, to survive. And I even think the world itself

will become more supernatural so that we will not be amazed as much by the miraculous. Um, it'll just

become a, a necessity to survive. Uh, so I think that the expression of church 3.0 at its fullest will be

more like a murmuration of starlings than it will be, um, the typical network theory that we have laid out in that book.

So maybe the advance or maybe church 4.0 is this murmuration of starlings or this school

of fish, um, mentality.

Maybe it's, maybe it's 3.1, 3.5, you know, some, some, some variable in, in there, um, you know,

say 4.0 for when the metaverse, I don't know, you can get lost in that. Um, you know, it's interesting.

I had, um, I had a conversation and, and, and I'm not going to be able to give credit to this quote.

Uh, but I've had a conversation recently with somebody over at new thing. We, DC and we work

with a new thing network and, uh, they were telling me about a, um, it was a Chinese missionary or

someone was over here was speaking and they were talking, Jason, was this your story about the, um,

oh my gosh, it was the, the, this Chinese person was asked a question. He was telling stories about

how supernatural activities that he's seeing in China and he's giving testimony to, to everything

that's happening, you know, in, in, in the far East. And, uh, and somebody asks this person,

you know, why do you not think we see it in, in, in America? Why, why do we not see the supernatural

activity in America like you're seeing over there? And, and, and the response from this, this person

from the far East was, well, you have insurance. I mean, you have these things that you're dependent

on. And so you don't, you don't need to see God. You will not see God move. And because

you're not, you're not looking for God to move. You're looking to, to validate, to work yourself

out of that. And it's interesting in this, you know, and I believe this in Jason. I know we've

had this conversation as the church, as we in culture here in the West, as we move more and more

towards a post post-Christian environment, post-Christian culture, if we're not already there

yet, you know, I do agree. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of persecution. We're going to be

seeing a lot of, of challenges in which is going to discredit the organized church, the institutionalized

church, but it's really, it's going to empower that priesthood of believers that have the relational

equity, that have that, that influence with, with friends and with family to speak towards things

that, that we are not able to speak to as, as pastors or at a decreasing level at this point.

I'm still thinking about what you just said about swarm theory, that, that like in my mind,

I'm still spinning around like the, what makes swarm theory work is you, you don't have an,

you don't have an organized network. So there's no network overhead, which is fascinating. Um,

but you have, what you do have though, is a very simple and portable set of simple instructions

that interact with everyone else's. And what's, as I think about it, you know, hopefully we're all

reading the same book, listening to the same spirit and following the same God, right? If all of those

things are true. And I've noticed this even among other brothers and sisters who I've only met for

the first time, I can fly across the world and meet someone who deeply loves Jesus and follows him.

And I don't speak his language. I don't understand his culture. You know, there's so much about his life

that I do not get, but I instantly have more in common with him than all of the other things combined

because of that. And I feel there's, there's a piece of that that resonates with me that I wonder much

like how the persecuted church in China tends to know who the spies are spiritually. Somehow they,

they sense it. The spirit tells them that, you know, this guy's, you know, out to, you know, destroy the

movement or whatever. And it's like, okay, fine. They just listen to the spirit. Right. And what I, what I think is,

is there are so many people that are listening to the spirit in that way, in digital spaces, in VR,

talking with other people who are doing the same thing that it's there, it's beginning to coalesce.

That's what's fascinating. And it's a, it's an interesting description that you gave. I'm still

kind of processing that one.

Well, let me ask, Neil, like, as you mentioned earlier, talking about your movement, there's,

there's some aspects to what you're doing is digital, uh, the training and communication and that's

post COVID. We're definitely seeing that, you know, in, in some decentralized and in some micro

environments, uh, more efficient training digitally compared to physical only. Um,

as we're talking in, in, and I would love, honestly, I would love honest feedback, uh,

pros, cons, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities. You guys are way off base, you know, we're,

we're, so we're talking literally applying some of your principles into digital and metaverse,

into Facebook groups, into video games, into, um, uh, twitch and discord and virtual reality and all

space and, and like maybe bleeding edge concepts here. Um, what's your take? Like where, where are we

right? Where are we wrong? What, what challenges are we going to need to overcome? I just would love

your knee jerk opinion on this. Sure. Well, if you talk about digital church, I think, um,

um, uh, people, my age, um, are going to respond negatively. Think for the most part, thinking

that's not possible. You have to have face to face, heart to heart connection with people. But I,

I think they're not taking into consideration that this new emerging generation, this is all they've

known. You know, they don't know of a world where there isn't an iPhone. They don't have a history where

there isn't digital connection. So they have been, they have evolved to be more suited for a digital

expression of church than their parents and grandparents ever were. So I think that we'll

find this, this generation is more equipped for it and able to do it with or without permission or

blessing. Um, so I, I do see that happening. Um, I see new opportunities for connecting that way,

where you have, uh, like I teach a seminary class that is people from all over the world. Um,

it's kind of remarkable to do that. It's a blessing and you have simple and easy, um,

it's simple and easy expressions that can reproduce and grow and spread fast. Those are all positives

for it. I see that you can apply everything in church 3.0 in a digital way. Um,

my headphones are about to die. So if that happens, I'll just take them out and figure something else

out on the negative side. Uh, you could feel more isolated without human connectivity and contact with

people. So I think that's something that needs to be supplemented in some way. I think, you know,

in Christianity, wearing a mask has always been a problem, but wearing an avatar is an even grander

expression of a mask. And you can put forward somebody more easily that is not who you really are

and cover up the things in your life that are perhaps more vulnerable or would be vulnerable if you let

people see them and they don't want them to be seen. So I think you can hide more easily behind an

avatar than you can even behind a smiley face mask that you wear on Sundays. Um, I think that you're

more vulnerable to, in a sense, you, uh, the government could shut down church immediately by just unplugging

you. So you, you're very vulnerable to persecution. All they have to do is flip, flip the switch and you

no longer exist. Um, so that's, that's a vulnerability I see. Um, and, and there are steps being made in

Congress, even at this very moment to try and, uh, curtail what's possible on the internet. Um,

I think that, uh, uh, uh, COVID was, uh, exposure of the church's weakness of consumerism

and it, and it really killed the church. So we, you know, God sent COVID and all the restrictions

and it was a way for him to say, don't be better attenders, be better neighbors and do things in your

home and empower everyone. But I think a lot of churches just said, okay, just stay home and we'll do

church with simulcast. And so they did, they just easily transitioned to a more digital expression

of church. But the problem they, they ran into that they didn't anticipate is their, their consumers

found better sermons and better music on other websites. And, and so soon church consumerism was

thrown up and everyone's realized the fault of it overnight. And that's a problem. I think that,

uh,

I do think that, that it's, it's something we need to be thinking about praying about you guys are leading

the way. And I appreciate that. Uh, those are the, the potential problems I see there. I could probably

come up with another list if I gave it more time, but, um, I do see a lot of positives. Yeah.

You know what's, um, and, and I agree, Neil, with the majority of what you just said, like the

government shutdown is a concern, which is one of the reasons we encourage, uh, multiple platforms,

decentralized, don't be limited to one platform because that's harder to control. Uh, the, uh,

oh, and the simulcasting of services. Oh my gosh. Like we're, um, don't base everything off that we

don't want to create consumers. We want to create disciples that are active, uh, in digital space,

as well as physical space. We want to exude this, the fruits of the spirit physically, uh, even to the

point of, of starting micro locations and, and, and connecting in the workplace. Like there's,

there's lots there, but you know, what's interesting. And, and, and so often I, I hear from people,

um, um, the mask thing where, uh, it's, Hey, you know what? It's very easy digitally for people to

hide. Uh, and it's very easy for people to, to catfish, to not be who they really are. And yes,

there is, there is a, a level of, of concern with that, but almost what we really see more often than

that. And Jason can attest to this are people who are far more trusting and open and honest in digital

space because Neil, we're not breathing the same air molecules. Like I'm not even in the same room.

Neil, I'm having a conversation with you right now. And I'm actually not sure what state you live in.

Like, we're just, we're just having a conversation. And, and so that I live in a perpetual state of

panic. Awesome. No, that's not true. That, no, that's awesome. But that is so freeing for people that,

to have honest, open, clear conversations where you're not worried about judgment, where you're not

worried about looking down on, because I don't really know who you are. Like, and that allows for

a deeper conversation much quicker. There, there is a challenge. There are people that will catfish.

There are people that will fake. Uh, but then there's flip side. There's so much opportunity

because then there's this other type of person that just leans into it, um, towards that.

Yeah. Well, you get that, you get that even through the Twitter verse and things where you have,

people will say things there that they would never say to your face,

but it also brings out some of the worst things in people.

Well, I think it's, there's a couple of things at play. One is, I think it reveals

a lot of things about people that you're right. They wouldn't say it to your face,

not because it's not in their heart, because they just don't have the guts to do it.

And what, when you get something where you see the vitriol, you're getting a little bit more of a

glimpse of what's actually going on inside and what Jesus talked about out of the abundance of the

heart, the mouth speaks. And I think the fingers post, you know, that I think both are true.

And it is interesting that you talk about the mask thing, because I was kind of like swirling around

on that because I get a lot of that, uh, pushback as well. But I don't know that that is necessarily

a digital problem as much as it is a human one. And even to the point where the apostle Paul was

criticized because his letters were fiery, but he's unimpressive in person. So even the apostle Paul

was, it felt like there was this disconnect between his writing persona and his actual persona.

And that's in the first century, he was stronger on Twitter than he was in person.

Right, exactly. I know a lot of people like that, where they're stronger on Twitter than they are

in person. I know a lot of people like that. And so I think there's a piece of it where

it's, it's more of a human thing on both sides of the equation. One is, um, people tend to,

when they have the possibility to be whoever they could dream of, they usually end up being truly

themselves. That's one thing. And the second thing is, is when people are on the receiving end

of any kind of digital or textual, I'll just say textual, because I think it also applies to

letters and, you know, other books, even things like that. When people are on the receiving end

of textual communication, you are missing so much more of the picture than if you were face-to-face

with body language, voice intonation, all the things, you're just filling those gaps in

with your own imagination. What could possibly go wrong, right? Something that could have been

communicated in a very, um, sweet and meek manner can be read the opposite. And we don't have good

handles for that on both sides of the equation. One is like human nature, that there's no consequences

for what I say. That's one thing. The other thing, human nature is, in the absence of information,

I will fill it with my imagination. And that could go sideways really quickly. Um, but I don't

necessarily, again, see that as a digital problem. I do see it as a human problem. And I don't think

it's by accident either. And this is something that you said that made me think about it, even with the,

with the idea of the apostle Paul is that he tended to, um, send his letters with a trusted friend.

And I think in that way, it tended to compensate for the downfall or, you know, the, I wouldn't say

downfalls. I would just say the, yeah, but it's just the limitations of textual communication,

right? It has its limits, right? So he, he compensated for that in other means. And I'm,

and what you, what you say is very valid. And I think it's, it's worth considering of how do we in

the digital space compensate for those digital limitations that exist? We need to think of those

things and figure that out just like the apostle Paul did. You know, it's interesting. I've,

I've got another quote here. Um, it's from, it's from your book and this is actually a highlight.

I'm looking at the Kindle that I hadn't when I read it in 2010. Uh, but you're, you're quoting Alan

Hirsch. So I don't know whether to give Alan Hirsch, who's been on the podcast, uh, but I don't know

whether to give him credit or you credit or you credit for giving him credit. But, um, a missional,

Hirsch goes on to say a missional theology is not content with mission being church-based work.

Rather, it applies to the whole life of every believer. Every disciple is to be an agent of the

kingdom of God. And every disciple is to carry the mission of God into every sphere of life.

We are all missionaries sent into a non-Christian culture. I don't know when Alan Hirsch said that,

but it's quoted in a 2010 book. And what's fascinating is in the Kindle, I actually wrote a

book. I wrote a note at the end of that sentence that says, you can't see it on the phone, but it

says, including online, like in 2010, the idea of sending, um, missionaries into non-Christian

culture, including that online was something that, that I was, I don't want to be ego here,

but I was, I was working towards, I was seeing the vision towards that and, and seeing this as an

incredible strategy to help empower people to get into this culture. It's funny. You were talking

about the first time you hold your book. I mean, this is literally, this is book number two. It's

not book number one, but the idea of, you know, Dave Ferguson's actually one of the reasons we got

connected, but Dave gave me permission to write, uh, a digital and metaverse version of blessed

practices and turning that and empowering people to take that gospel into the digital and metaverse

mission fields. We can argue whether or not it's a ecclesiological church. We can argue whether or

not you, you, it meets the biblical mandates and the functions, uh, in digital and metaverse space.

But we can't, we can't argue about the mission field. Like there's, I have yet to meet a pastor

who's like, Jeff, you don't need to take, uh, the gospel into, into digital and metaverse. Nobody,

everybody is at least recognizing the opportunities of, of the mission field. And so it's been,

it's been a lot of fun, sir, taking these ideas, uh, taking the challenge of, of, of the priesthood

of all believers, empowering individuals, the multiplying of this, the, the contextualizing,

the, it's better to have a hundred thousand churches of 10 than a million person church,

uh, and helping, uh, and helping others think differently. It's, it's funny, probably the,

the biggest challenge that I have when, when we're working with planters that want to plant these

churches is actually trying to get them to forget everything they think they know about church.

Um, because whether it's, uh, whether it's physical operation, whether it's, um, you know, limitations,

because they're thinking in, in a mega environment and digital operates much better in a relational

micro, as opposed to a mega, uh, there's a lot of, of reprogramming, uh, in, in re-imagining what

church can be and how to do it in some of these communities. And, and your book, uh, similar,

I mentioned Leonard Sweet earlier, like both of your books really gave me permission to do this.

Uh, there wasn't a lot on this space at the time. You were very, uh, visionary in this Leonard Sweet,

1999 at 98, I think is when he wrote Soul Tsunami, very visionary for its time. And you guys both were,

were huge in my life to, to help get to where we are today with this movement. So, man,

I just wanted to say thank you, uh, for, for, for doing this and, and doing the hard work,

uh, for taking those shots, those bullets, uh, to get these ideas out, to help guys like me,

guys like Jason, helping us do what, do what we're doing now. So that's greatly appreciated on our side.

Great. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Hey, as, as we're wrapping up the, the, the plane here, well, let me ask Jason,

any, any closing thoughts as we're wrapping up here?

I think we pretty much hit it. I mean, I'm,

I'm really looking forward to like that, that idea of the, of the school of fish and the,

the starling concept. I feel like we've experienced right here a little bit of it where,

you know, we've never had a chance to sit down and talk,

but we're both swimming in the same direction, you know.

Um, Neil is wrapping up in any closing thoughts.

The, the idea. So a lot of times we do church without music because we don't have musicians in

the group. And so we've developed non-musical ways of doing worship as a group, but I'll tell you,

if you, if you can have music, it's better.

It's not necessary to be church, but when you add the music, there's something special about that

creation of God that touches your heart in a way that nothing else can.

And I'm not saying music in and of itself is all that worship is. I know it's not,

but music adds to the element. And in the same way, I think family, um,

it's a blessing that you can have family living in other states and you can connect online.

But if you can be in the same room, breathing the same molecules, um, that's a better thing.

And I think you would want that too. So I see an online church expression as necessary,

as beautiful as having many opportunities that you don't have any other place.

But I think, um, if you ask me personally, does it take the place of flesh on flesh,

eyeball to eyeball contact with people? I think it's, it's kind of like the difference

between having church without music or having church with music. It's like having,

do you want to have a, I'm going to say it's the difference between having a black and white or a

color TV, but I don't think many of our audience would know what a black and white TV is.

You may be dating yourself a little bit with that one. Just, just, just a little bit.

Um, and you know what, Neil, I agree with you. Like the buildings in, in church in a physical space

serves a purpose. Um, what, what I would suggest is that digitally we can reach people that aren't

going to the buildings. And, and, and I can tell you stories of, of digital churches that are reaching

80 to 85% atheists, uh, virtual reality, 75% de-churched. I can tell you stories of neo-pagans

and Satanists that are finding Christ in virtual reality and in digital churches that are discipling

people that haven't set foot in a physical building, church building in a decade. And so like, there's,

there's these rich stories where God's moving in this space. And one of the things that, that I wrestle

with in, in, in a second, but one of the things that I wrestle with and, and I ask this question

all the time of, of the pastors that are in the space, Hey, like, you know, at what point do we ask,

do we challenge some of these people to, to stop attending digitally and go physically? Is there a

point that, that we, that we, we need to, should we, is what's the three-year plan, the five-year plan?

Like, what, what is this, what does this look like? And it's interesting, even like the guys and the

gals that are planting, it's varying answers. Some of them want to encourage and have intentional

plans to get people connected in, in the physical. Some of them don't. And so this is, this is one of

the, the things that I think time will tell where we will try to figure that out. Go ahead.

One of the trends we're seeing right now is that more people, there are a lot of people who are more

keen to start a business than to start a church. That God is leading people to start, uh, communities

where they're, they're self-sustainable, they're farming, they are living in community, they're

starting businesses that not only bless and, uh, support this, sustain themselves, but also bless the

community. That's a trend happening all over the world. Um, that can happen online, but there's also

an element to that where you need to have hand to hand contact. So it's almost like, I think it's a

both and for the future. I think it's a, it's a something where there's a blending of both and

is a better alternative than just being completely digital or being completely non-digital.

I love it.

Yeah. I'm with you, Neil. I think, uh, the perfect example of the blending of those two things and the

tension of those two things is second John 12, where John's saying, Hey, I'm writing you pen and

ink right now. I long to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full. And in my mind,

I'm thinking, okay, a couple of things, one full for who for John and his buddies, not for me.

Right. And John didn't, uh, it didn't keep him from sending the letter. Right. It didn't

keep him from writing the letter because John at the time, I don't think even had the capacity to

understand the longevity and the reach that his letter would have. Right. Because he's just thinking

about his friends. Both are true. Right. It is better when you're with friends together,

you know, no doubt, but how do you fill in those gaps? You know, and then, then the question becomes,

okay, if we can be a little bit more forgiving with, you know, how, how we manage the community

and the relational, um, glue between us, is it, maybe we can play with the cadence a little bit,

you know, maybe, I don't know. And again, Jeff is right. You talk to people on this topic,

you'll get all the different kinds of answers, but this emerging generation is asking those types of

questions. And it's the same generation to your point that will do business as mission. It's the same

generation that will have online digital gaming relationships and do a once in a year meetup

where they will spend thousands of dollars and dress up like, you know, crazy people to do and

to be with their friends for a week when they do it. And then they go back to their digital relationship.

And I don't, that feels normal to them, right? I don't know what to make of all of that,

but I know that Jesus can work through it. And it's interesting, the interplay of both of those

things together. Well, and I appreciate you guys speaking into that world. Thank you.

This has been Neil. Once again, I want to thank you for jumping on. It's been a great conversation. I've

enjoyed learning from you historically, dialoguing with you now. Like this is, this is awesome. I'm

having like a geek moment here. Like this is, this has been really good, but hey, we're going to land

the plane. So Neil, thank you once again. I mean, I probably said thank you 50 times. And I really do

mean that from the heart. Like there's, this is, this is awesome. Jason, uh, one of the smartest

people I know in digital church. If I'm going to have a conversation with Neil Cole,

bring the guy that can help the conversation. And you were, you were awesome with this, but hey,

we're going to wrap up. And so, uh, Neil, uh, Jason, thank you very much. But for Neil, for you,

for Jason, this is Jeff with the church, digital, digital church network, leadership network,

and so much other fun stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. Uh, we'll see you again on the show.

Y'all have a good day.