EP271 - Season 5: Metaverse Mission Trip, Relevant Magazine, and Next Steps in Metaverse Church

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, everybody. We are launching season five of the Church Digital Podcast here. My name is Jeff Reed.

It's a pleasure to be here with you. Founder of the Church Digital, co-founder of Digital Church

Network. And oh man, I love every one of my 19 jobs or whatever it is at this point. But we get to do a

lot of fun stuff centered around digital ministry, digital church, metaverse. Like we could really

get into some really interesting concepts here as we're launching out season five, as we're talking

about next level, how to take your digital church, your digital ministry, your metaverse church to the

next level. The Medford Church, that's actually a category here in 2023. I love it. So hey, listen,

I was actually challenged by an idea a couple months ago. And it was so good. Not only did I say yes to

helping this church, but it was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be an incredible opportunity for so

many. And honestly, I was a little embarrassed. I had thought about myself, but that's why I surround

myself with smart people and listen all the time. And so I'm really excited to introduce here with

season five next level. My guest here, Ryan Sidholm, lead pastor, church planter here with River City

Church. And so Ryan, thanks for jumping on the podcast here. Yeah, thanks for having me.

So Ryan's up in Vancouver, Washington, a church planter there with River City. So maybe before we get

started here, we start to explain what's going on. Ryan, give us a 30 second update. Tell us about

River City. Yeah, you know, we're excited about what the Lord is doing. We launched Easter Sunday,

2019, which was 10 months before the pandemic. So I highly recommend that, by the way. If you want to

start something new, do it right before a global pandemic. It'll really stretch you. But early on,

early on, we started, you know, we had to think in unique ways because of this, you know, we all got

thrust into COVID. And so by the grace of God, we're still here. Awesome. You know, so many planters in

that season, you were joking almost tongue in cheek a little bit about the opportunities and the

challenges of launching in the COVID season. But it's been so much joy in my life, seeing planters

like you and so many others, even my own church, Reality Church down here in Miami, Florida, that was

launching in that season. How, you know, innovation looks different and how, yes, the playbooks were

destroyed and let's do something different. And many, many churches launched really strong in that space.

And so it's interesting. Four years, you just celebrated your four-year birthday anniversary

talking off air, and it's exciting to see churches like yours thrive. And to be honest, it's even

exciting for me to have this conversation come out of a church that's just four years old. You see,

you see, Ryan came up to me. Was this, I don't remember the context. Where were we? Was it a Zoom call?

Like, how did this, how'd this conversation start, right? Was just a random Zoom call?

I shot you a message on Facebook. I said, hey, I got a big idea I need to talk to you about. So we got on a

Zoom call.

And Ryan pitched to me the idea of a metaverse mission trip, like a church taking people into virtual reality

for a mission trip. And I'm like, well, this is an interesting concept. So let's see what this guy has to say.

So we jump on the Zoom call. And I mean, here's the premise, right? You're going to do, you're going on a

mission trip. Your church is going on a mission trip to, I don't know, Bolivia. And so you're buying,

you're making all these volunteers buy a plane ticket to Bolivia. You got to pay for the visa,

get your passport in order because you're leaving America, assumed, to go to Bolivia. You are,

you're having to pay for a hotel. You're having to pay for some sort of room and board in Bolivia.

You're having to pay for food in Bolivia. You may be taking family members. Other people may be

going with you. I mean, at minimum, you're probably spending $1,500 to $2,000 to go to Bolivia. Now to

do physical, tangible ministry, you're walking the streets, you're talking with people, you're praying

with people, you're working with churches and organizations in the space, serving them.

Like a physical mission trip is hugely impactful. I've, my, listen, I met my wife on a physical

mission trip down in Key West. And so like the opportunities, I'm not saying go on a mission

trip to meet your spouse. That was, that was not the appropriate response, but mission trips are

very powerful. And so when Ryan's posing the idea of what if, what if instead of a plane ticket,

we buy a headset as volunteers, the volunteers buy the headsets. And, and then we start to not,

spend our time in, in a different country, learning those cultures, but we go into the virtual reality

and start to better understand the cultures that are in VR. And oh my gosh, like this is,

this is an incredible idea, right? So Ryan, tell me, tell us here a little bit, where did this idea

come from? Yeah. So, um, I was literally just praying about how to, how to better reach people

for the gospel. And, and I don't know how much credit I can take for this idea because it came to

me in a dream, like a literal dream while I was sleeping. Uh, and I woke up and I was like, man,

that's a crazy idea. Uh, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought there might be something

there. Uh, and so, uh, I was, I was given permission by another ministry leader recently. He said,

you know, if God impresses something on your heart, put, you know, like talk about it, like

see if it's, there's something actually there. And so, uh, I prayed, I literally just prayed. I was

like, God, who should I talk to about this crazy idea? Uh, and even though I didn't know Jeff

personally, uh, it was Jeff's name that, that kind of came to mind and we, we had been connected. I had

seen him speak at conferences and, you know, so it wasn't just like, I was like, who is Jeff Reed?

You know, but, uh, but God, apparently God wants me to talk to some guy named Jeff, but no. So I

reached out to him and, uh, that's the rest is, uh, I mean, it's, it's going to be history soon. Uh,

we're, we're, we're rolling with it. So. Very cool. Yeah. So, uh, evidently I'll agree to any crazy

idea. That's not true, but I do agree to a lot of crazy ideas right now post post COVID. And, uh,

listen, the idea centered around the metaverse mission trip and empowering people to be on mission

and virtual reality. Well, honestly, I've written two books in my lifetime, two books within the past

year, one on doing virtual reality ministry and one on being a, a, uh, uh, missionary in that space.

And so when, when Ryan's sharing with me the conversation and I'm in my mind, I'm reflecting

back on, you know, blessed practices and virtual reality and, and, and, and engaging in these

communities and recognizing the contextualizations of what's possible, man, I'm, I'm grinning in ear

to ear, looking at the potential for Ryan's church here, river, um, man, I just blanked on a river

city to get into, into that space. And what an incredible opportunity to, to expand horizons and

start to discover something different. And so we're doing, and what was fascinating with this,

like, I even want to tell the story before we get into it. Um, so I'm in, um, I'm, I'm with

leadership network at this couple of weeks ago. I was at leadership network at this, uh, at this

leadership retreat. We're planning out the future and some things that are happening with, with LN

and, and I'm in the middle of like backwater Georgia. Like there's this, there's water inlet,

there's like alligators and dolphins swimming in the same space. Like I've never, never seen that

before. Alligators and dolphins, like in the same water. And it's just as beautiful. And, and listen,

I'm in the, I'm in this space in backwater Georgia at this, at this leadership retreat.

And there is no cell signal like at all, not, not even like one bar of 4g it's, it's zero.

And there's very little internet access. And so like, um, I'm completely withdrawn from society.

It feels like, which was necessary. And it felt good by the way, I slept really well for a couple

of nights, but coming off of that, um, you know, in the middle of walking around, I guess where I got

that one flicker of, of cell signal, I get this text message from, from Ryan saying, Hey, relevant

magazine just published an article about the, the, the, the mission trip. And it was funny. It's

like, uh, you know, Ryan's like, I had no idea they were looking. And I was like, I didn't know they

were looking either. And so somehow they found out about, did you, Ryan, did you ever get any insight

to how we ended up getting on, are you, your church ended up getting on relevant magazine?

No, literally my wife, my wife was just scrolling on her cell phone and she saw this thing and she

thought it was another church doing a virtual reality mission trip, you know? And so she's like,

what's this? And she clicks on it and she just walks around the corner. She goes, Ryan relevant

magazine just did a story on us. So yeah, I don't know where that came from. Maybe somebody's got

like the, the Google bots out there, artificial intelligence poked relevant magazine on the

shoulder. Who knows? But, uh, it was, it was awesome just seeing, uh, seeing river city church

getting some attention centered around, uh, the virtual reality, uh, mission trip. And so we'll put

links to this in the show notes and, and things like this. You can check out the, the, uh, the,

the article. Um, but here with this season was season five. I mean, we're talking about this idea of,

of digital ministry or of metaverse ministry to the next level. And so we, you've got opportunities.

I want to encourage you right now, listener out there, there there's two or three things that,

that I want to encourage you to do. Number one, I would encourage you to consider being part

of, of, of a, of a metaverse mission trip. We, with, uh, the church digital digital church network,

um, it is our goal here in two, uh, 2023. Uh, we want to see 250 people go on mission in virtual

reality this year. And, and so going through, um, Ryan, uh, with, with his church, river city church,

uh, doing what they're doing. And that's an awesome opportunity for individuals to maybe jump

on a mission trip. And Ryan, you were telling me off, off air, uh, France and, uh, where else,

like where, where have you been getting some exposure?

Kyrgyzstan. We have an individual in Kyrgyzstan coming with us.

Yeah, that that's crazy. And he was, it was actually interviewed by a Canadian, Canadian press

just recently. Right. So we may be getting some, Oh, Canada people, uh, in, in the mix as well,

but definitely excited about seeing individuals jump on. And I mean, I want to thank Ryan for,

for opening this up. Uh, but there's an opportunity here for, for churches beyond, um, this beyond

Ryan's to, to get on board. And so through leadership network, uh, and through actually GACX, which is,

I don't talk much about that, but that's campus crusades, global digital division. Uh, we,

the church digital digital church network, we're actually leading two more learning communities

centered around the metaverse mission trip. And so with leadership network, as most of you listening

are probably us-based churches, this is a great opportunity to come alongside and start to get

some exposure on what metaverse community is, go on a mission trip, start to discover what the

missional opportunities in that space are. And, and maybe just maybe even launch a church as a result

of it. In addition to taking 250 people on mission this year, we want to see, uh, 10 churches, uh,

get planted, get launched in virtual reality as a result of it. And we're going to talk with

Stuart McPherson next week about what church planting looks like and how the mission trip fits into that.

And, and it's a great, great conversation that we've got coming up with Stunami, uh, coming up in

the next, in the next couple of weeks, but Hey, Ryan, let's, let's dig in. By the way,

if you're interested in the metaverse mission trip, uh, leadnet.org slash M L C leadnet.org

slash M L C leadership network.org slash, or not leadnet.org slash M for metaverse L for learning,

C for community Lincoln show notes. Ryan, if there, if somebody is interested in your,

your trip, what's, what's a good link or information for that?

Yeah. River city, Vancouver.com. Uh, so, uh, you'd probably see a header that just says missions

or missions to the metaverse. Just click there and you'll have all the information you need, but

river city, Vancouver.com.

Very cool. Well, let's, let's drill into some, some details here a little bit. What exactly in your

mind, and this is all hypothetical and we're onboarding this, we're doing this for the first

time, Brian, but, uh, you tell me here, what is a, what is a mission trip to the metaverse? What,

what does this look like? Yeah. Well, you know, we're, we want to frame it in the sense of like a,

you know, a normal, if you will, mission trip. Uh, you never want to go to a, a mission field and

just be tourists, right? That's, that's a no, no. And so we don't want to be the people, uh, that go

to, let's use your example of Bolivia again and just say, oh, Hey, let's just go to see all the

sites and let's get, you know, our Bolivia stickers and souvenirs and let's go home. Uh,

the idea is we're there to either share Jesus or to do some work on the ground. And so the same idea

is we want to go into the metaverse for the purpose of sharing Jesus, not just to hang out and play games,

but to share Jesus with individuals that we encounter in this metaverse space. So that's the

idea behind it. Uh, and you know, in thinking through this, uh, and this is something, you know,

Jeff and I even just off air, like we're working out some of these details too, because it's like,

we're doing this for the very first time, but in a typical mission trip, you, you land on the ground

and you're there 24 seven, uh, until your plane takes off again. And obviously that's not something

that we really want to encourage people to do, uh, in the, in the metaverse. I don't know if it's

healthy for someone to spend 24 seven there for, for, for a week. Uh, but so instead we're making this

mission trip a month long and we're just saying, Hey, you know, can you fit in five to 10 hours

per week after work after school, you know, just in the morning being intentional about sharing Jesus

with people that you're able to connect with in this metaverse space. So that's kind of the,

the nutshell, what it looks like. Yeah. So it's going to be the month of, of August is this window

they're, they're opening up and, and really challenging the people on the metaverse mission

trip to spend five to 10 hours a week in, in virtual reality. Uh, let me just go ahead and

say it publicly spending 24 seven in, in virtual reality. It's probably not a good idea. You may

have like some, some anxiety issues and separation from actual physical reality. And that's probably

not a good idea according to some therapist somewhere or all the therapists somewhere. But, um,

I do, I love the opportunity to, to engage in these communities. One of the things that we really,

we 2023 church, what we don't understand is this technology literally exists for communication.

It's designed to create the technology to connect people on opposite sides of the world and allow

them to communicate together. I mean, VR chat is called VR chat for a reason because people want

to go into virtual reality and chat. Yeah, sure. VR chat gets a little gross at times and, and, but

hey, VR chat needs Jesus. And so there, there's an opportunity even to contextualize it and start to

get people to go into the space and, and explore VR chat, explore rec room, explore Facebook horizons,

explore meta horizons, explore, uh, spatial, the new, uh, option that's out there. That's been growing

like crazy. Explore these spaces, explore gaming. And what does it look like to build relationships

through gaming? Uh, and, and how can we connect with people, uh, through among us through, oh my gosh,

I, I just, I just blanked on the, the Fortnite, uh, pop one, you know, start to connect with people in

these, even in these games and build relationships. Yeah. Now can that relationship feed to discord?

Can that feed to a text? Can that feed to something off the headset? Sure. That's, that's kind of the

goal. It's, it's build relationships and then speak to blessing people. Begin with prayer, listen to them,

explore, uh, explore shared experiences, uh, serve them and then share your Jesus story. Like this is

the, the heart of sharing Jesus online. This is the heart of being a digital and, and metaverse

missionary. And there's an opportunity to start to challenge churches like yours and to find volunteers

to go on mission in the metaverse, not spending 1500 plus on a plane ticket internationally,

but reach, you know, Stuart, Stu Nami talks about this a lot. He's, he's able to be a digital,

a metaverse missionary internationally and never leave his couch. He's able to jump in that VR and

start to connect with people globally and start to represent Jesus, uh, for a whole new generation

of, of people that don't, don't know them. Um, and this is, this is so cool. So here, Ryan, I want to ask

this. You have been around four years. Like that is, um, you're diving in the deep into the pool here,

my friend. Uh, not a lot of four year churches. I want to have this conversation. Why are, why are we

having like, you know, they're worried about service times. They're worried about the buildings.

They're worried about, you know, I, I don't know, set up or tear down or the things that,

you know, young churches like yours are getting into, but, but you're, you're really doing some

abstract thought here. Not even in number one, abstract metaverse ministry is okay. Number two,

let's involve ministry in that space. And three, let's promote it like crazy. Like there's,

you're very complex here with, with what you're doing. Where did this come from? Like,

how did you end up doing this? Was there, what's the secret?

Well, I, you know, uh, the, the, the only secret I can think of is literally, it's just,

you know, I feel called to, to make disciples of all nations and all generations. Right. And if

we're going to reach this next generation, we've got to be thinking outside of the box. We can't be

doing church as usual, if you will. And so, you know, the, you, you said it earlier, the playbook

was thrown out. Uh, and so, you know, if I heard somebody say this, I don't remember, it might've

been you, I have no idea, but, uh, somebody said, if, if the only thing that our churches do as a

result of COVID is go online, if that's it, then we failed, we've missed the mark. Like the, the,

the whole pandemic changed everything. And so we've got to be innovative in the way that we reach

people for Jesus. And so, so that's, you know, number one is just, you know, just trying to be

innovative in the way that we do this. But, uh, another thing that I'm thinking about that I don't

know if people realize this or not is, is a big goal of this trip a month. That's, that's habit

forming. That's enough time to really make some habits. And so these people who live in, in, in,

you know, in the real world, uh, who go to a brick and mortar church called river city church,

my idea is I want at the end of the month for them to take their VR headsets off and say,

wait a second, that thing that I just spent a month doing in virtual reality, I could do that in real

life too. Like I can, I can engage people in my everyday world with the gospel and, and similar with,

you know, you using similar tactics, the bless framework.

Yeah. I, I, I love the idea of that early on with Ryan, it was, it was funny. I brought up the,

I brought up the point. I was like, Hey, you know what? You're, you're trying to get everybody to buy

these headsets and they're costing, you know, the cheapest ones right now are $400. And, you know,

Apple will be like, hold my beer in a minute when they come out with theirs in a couple of months

for two or 3000. Um, but the, and so like the price of this is high and, and, you know, and I, I really,

I pitched to Ryan, man, you can like rent a headset for a month for a couple hundred dollars. Like it's,

I think it's like 30 bucks a week, uh, from some of the vendors that I've been working with. So there's

opportunities to really make this much more cheaper and much more accessible. And Ryan really pushed

against the idea, which I totally respected. He's, he's like, I want to create the culture of people

utilizing virtual reality. I don't want to give them an out at the end of the month because they

got to ship back the headset. Uh, and so having that buy-in, having them own the gear, uh, to engage

in virtual reality, to engage in these, these communities and, and these, uh, these, and build

these relationships. I mean, this is so good. Yeah. And you know, we're not there to get souvenirs,

but a VR headset, it's a pretty sick souvenir from a mission trip. I mean, I, I literally,

I keep mine here at my desk. I've, I've got it just right over there in, in, in a charger,

ready to jump in at, at a moment's notice. And, uh, I, I am really excited at the idea of,

of pioneering these ideas with, of the mission trips, uh, to the churches. You know, it's,

it's funny. Like I'm just, as a guy that literally is, is, is championing, it's pioneering,

trying to get churches to get behind the idea of a metaverse church. Um, I'm also recognizing

that that's probably one of the more controversial statements I've ever said, getting church churches

to open up in the metaverse. And that, you know, I'll talk with the digital pastor. I'll talk with

the metaverse pastor. I'll talk with the volunteer and there's excitement around virtual reality.

Uh, but somewhere up the stream, uh, the excitement stops. Maybe it's an executive pastor,

maybe it's a lead pastor, maybe it's an elder board for whatever reason, you know, there's,

there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of pushback. It's interesting. Uh, I'm going to side note on

this, uh, push pay actually came out, uh, with some stats centered around the state of their state of

the church tech address. There's some, they did some research and they released it, uh, February 23,

but they actually found that 25% of churches today in America are interested in, in launching a church

in virtual reality. Uh, so even though you've got these tension, there's somebody that's interested.

Um, you know, I believe there's somebody upstream in the orgs that, that are not comfortable with

that. And I think that's really is the negativity that causes, you know, a lot of stalemating and

it helps, it causes a lot of churches to get stuck. I believe this mission trip is the opportunity to

move beyond that. Um, because it gives you an opportunity to cast vision to volunteers, for volunteers to buy

into it. You're able to get credible stories about what's happening in the space. Uh, you're able to

explore what the metaverse is without feeling pressure of, oh my gosh, I've got to do a church.

I got to do a church. No, you're, you're going on a mission trip. You're meeting person of pieces,

pieces. You're meeting your person of peace. You're, you're exploring the culture that that's there.

And, and, and as a result of it, it gives you permission, uh, to explore without coming in and

saying, we're doing this. And, and it gives you an opportunity to tell better stories to your

leadership, uh, to ground it with volunteers that are saying, we want to do this. That's going to give

you a much better case for doing a church, uh, in virtual reality, as opposed to coming in blindly

with it. So I love the idea of, you know, crock potting this, doing the mission trip, going slowly

through the process and trying, instead of trying to force something through. Hey, Ryan, as a, as a

four-year-old church, I'm curious, like, are you, are you interested in doing a church in virtual

reality? Like what, what, what's, what is the takeaway from this trip? What are you hoping to walk

away with? How is your church going to be better as a result of this? Yeah, absolutely. We're, we're

100% interested in, in starting a virtual reality, either church or campus. I lean more towards

church. Um, but, uh, you know, I mentioned the idea of, of walking away with our people more equipped

to share Jesus. But, you know, early on when, when we were 10 months old, uh, yeah, 10 months old is

when the pandemic hit. Uh, one of the very first things we did was we did a virtual internship,

uh, because we were wanting to do a summer internship with our church plant kind of, you know,

missionaries come spend the, you know, the summer with us and help us, you know, plant roots into the

community. But with COVID happening, we had to shift pretty quickly. And I had the idea, why don't we

just do a virtual internship? And I'd never heard of that idea before, but it was awesome. And we were

able to connect with people in different ways than we'd ever connected with people before,

even though some of our interns, like one of our interns was in Texas and we're up here in Washington

state. Uh, and so we were able to do that, but then also we were able to really connect on a real

level with people who still to this day have not set foot into our brick and mortar building.

And so, uh, and so, yeah, you know, I forgot the question,

but, but, but there's, there's something about something maybe completely unrelated.

Yeah. That's awesome. I'm gonna, I'm gonna build off of what he said. There's, um, there's a much

larger percentage of atheists and agnostics, um, in this space. There, there's a much larger

percentage of, of, of mental health issues and addictive behaviors. Um, when we talk about virtual

reality, uh, you are seeing a different type of person than who's coming to your church building.

And that's, that's not to discredit your building. That's not to discredit virtual reality ministry.

It's, it's bringing attention to the fact of if we are going to complete the great commission,

we need to not only need our church buildings operating the way that they are, we need to

start exploring and getting into spaces like virtual reality and starting to address this,

this darkness and these, these spaces in these communities. Um, you know, we talk a lot in,

in, uh, the, the book of VR in the Metaverse Church. I mean, I, I tell stories of, of, of women

who have been raped in virtual reality. They tell the stories of how their avatar was raped in these

worlds. Um, we tell stories of, of strip clubs that million dollar strip clubs that are operating

in that space. Um, you know, selling rights to do things in, in dark back rooms that

probably shouldn't be done. Um, and, and this is not the reason that we run from virtual reality

church. This church is the reason that we run towards virtual reality, um, and, and, and get in

these spaces. And it's so exciting to me to see guys like Ryan and women that are already doing

ministry in that space as well, really championing and stepping forward and saying, we want to go in

that space and we want to help others catch a vision, uh, for what can be. And so this is who we're

looking for, for these, uh, metaverse learning communities that we're doing specifically through

leadership network where we're looking for 25 churches to step up and say, Hey, we're going to

explore the space. We, we want a guide to go on this journey with us and, and really help us start

to explore what metaverse ministry, what a metaverse mission field and what a metaverse church can look

like. And, and so thankfully we've got Stunami. Like I said, he'll be on the next podcast next week.

Stuart McPherson is coming on with the metaverse mission field, uh, the learning community and is,

and is diving in with us on helping churches, uh, explore, uh, helping churches do these mission

trips, train your people specifically on what metaverse missions looks like, and then explore

the idea of what a church can be. By the way, Stuart's, we'll get into it, but Stuart's actually

creating a virtual reality church network where he's trying to gather together churches of all

denominations and wants to see a massive movement of God in virtual reality space. And he's doing

that through digital church networks. So some incredible things coming up, but it all centered

around this mission field concept of, of, of what we're kicking off here. Hey Ryan, I'm curious. I,

and I actually, I don't know the answer to this. Do you have an internal goal of how, of how many

people you're hoping to get on, on your specific, uh, mission trip with river city?

Yeah, I really don't. Uh, I, I re I really don't have a goal. I just, it was more of just a crazy

idea. Uh, we have some other mission trips that are, you know, IRL mission trips coming up. And so,

uh, we're wanting to, to, to, to beef those up as well. So, uh, but we're, we're not large by any

means. And, and I want to just use this as an encouragement to say, you know, when I hear big,

crazy ideas like this, I'm like, man, they must be a big church with a lot of money. Like we're not a

big church at all. We're a four year old church plant that has spent the majority of our ministry

in pandemic times, uh, you know? And so we're not a large ministry by any means. Um, and so I think it

would be a huge win if we had a dozen people from our church doing this. And did that, that's awesome.

And by the way, what that would give the church is, is a dozen, hopefully at the end of the mission

trip, a dozen people that are bought into the ministry that understand what metaverse ministry

is. And now you've got a dozen people potentially to build a, as a core team, to build a church around

in virtual reality. By the way, you don't want to lose that same evangelistic aim when you launch

the church. You need those people to continue to, to go out into the virtual reality worlds and,

and bring into the church. Like there, there's a, there's a one, two relationship so often. And

Ryan can attest to this as a church planner. So often in church planting, even in physical space,

we, we lose that, that evangelical aim, uh, and instead transition into service planning and things

like that. Once the actual physical church launches and we don't, we don't want to lose

that, that evangelism. We don't want to lose that missional aim of, of the church. We want to keep

that, uh, bright and fresh, even once the physical services or the virtual reality services launch in

this context. And so, Hey, this has been a great conversation, Ryan. I do want to note that with

the learning communities through, through leadership network, we're not only doing a metaverse learning

community, we're doing a digital learning community as well. And so like, if you are a church that's saying,

this is crazy, I would never do anything in virtual reality. It's 2023. I understand what

you're saying. Wait till Apple comes out with their headsets, watch the world explode in virtual

reality. And nobody's going to be able to spell AI anymore. Everybody's going to go back to VR.

Maybe Apple's probably going to be too expensive, but augmented reality, mixed reality is really going

to be the thing anyway. So, but we're doing a digital learning community, uh, that's going to be

going on a digital mission trip where we're going to be utilizing some of these same blessed

practices. Uh, we're going to be training churches on how to create digital missionaries to lean into,

uh, digital communities, not metaverse, not virtual reality communities, digital communities,

communities like social media or Facebook groups or, or even video games starting to be more

engaging in communities that exist in that space. Even things like, oh, I don't know,

Nike plus, you know, engaging on their app and things like that. Any place where there's a community,

I would suggest there's an opportunity definitely for relationships. And anytime there's a relationship,

there's an opportunity for Christ. Um, and where Christ comes into play, there's a, there's a,

there's a chance for a church. And so this is really the approach that we want to share with churches,

uh, more of not creating a community that exists in digital space, especially in digital,

but more of how do we engage better in communities that are already existing for Christ?

What does it mean to really have a digital missionary empower the people in your church,

uh, to be those digital missionaries? Somebody wrote a book on that. Um, I, I gotta, I gotta think about it.

Um, sharing Jesus online.com. You can download it. Dr. John's a genius.

And I just, you know, show up every once in a while, but definitely excited about what's coming up here

in digital and metaverse spaces. So, so Ryan, your, your, your, your specific church was that, uh,

the website, more information to get connected into your specific mission trip is, is where again?

Rivercityvancouver.com.

So we'll have rivercityvancouver.com. We'll have that in the show notes.

And so if you're an individual interested in getting connected into a learning community,

that one is a great place to go. Um, if you are an organization interested in, in hosting a metaverse

mission trip, like what Ryan's doing, hit us up at the leadership network learning community.

It's at leadnet.org, L E A D N E T.org slash M L C for the metaverse one, the virtual reality one.

And if you're interested in the digital one, it's leadnet.org slash D L C for digital learning

community. Hopefully you see how we did that. We're pretty trying to be smart there. So either one

of those are open leadership networks, learning communities are going to be in the fall, September,

November, December. So definitely time to sign up now and, and save your spot for how we're going to

do this, uh, in the fall. So, Hey, um, man, this has been, this has been great, Ryan, uh, short and

sweet and, uh, definitely excited. Thank you by the way to, uh, whoever decided at relevant magazine to

write an article about this. Cause that kind of, that made my day, but at man, as, as we're, as we're

landing the plane, any questions, go ahead. Yeah. Well, I want to share one more thing just that I

think's kind of important. We talked about the idea of this mission trip transcending time zones. So

how we have someone in France and Kyrgyzstan jumping in with us. But one of the things that I've seen in

promoting this is it's really, it transcends physical abilities as well. And this is one of the

things that kind of blew my mind when I was speaking to somebody who said, you know, my, my wife's been

in a chair for, uh, for several years. So she's unable to go on a typical mission trip, but he was like,

but she could go on this one. And, and that really got my brain, you know, just my, my wheels turning

about, I know so many people who are unable to go on a, uh, you know, a quote unquote real, uh, mission

trip because of, you know, immunocompromised or social anxiety or, or fill in the blank, you know,

physical limitations. And so this is something that transcends that as well. So I'm really excited

about seeing who, who is going to engage with us on this trip.

Yeah. The, the implications and the opportunities to, to have people that aren't able to connect on

that physical mission trip to, to engage in the metaverse, you know, not only do I think that you

can empower a different, you can reach a different person in that space, but I, I agree. I think you

have to empower, uh, a different type of leader, a different type of volunteer to, to engage. And,

and I know, I know plenty of people that aren't socially comfortable communicating in physical space

that would do very well in, in a, in a metaverse environment or even a digital environment. And,

and rather than trying to force people into, um, one context to be able to, to open up and create

other contexts and other environments for people to, to speak into and share the gospel, man, this is a,

this is a great opportunity, I think for churches like yours out there to really start to discover,

um, how metaverse ministry, how virtual reality ministry, how leaning into digital communities,

uh, are going to reach a different person and empower a different leader and still have that same

opportunity to disciple at the level that your churches are, are expecting. So, hey, Ryan, man,

thank you. Well, first off, thank you for dreaming weird dreams. Um, and, and listening when God said,

go talk to that Jeff guy. Cause that, that's, it's, it's, it's encouraging to know he knows me up

there and, and, and, and is still thinking good things about me. So hopefully, hopefully we see more

ideas like this happen. And by the way, if your church has got crazy ideas, man,

listen, like I said, I rarely ever say no these days and it's a lot of fun. You know, at this point,

I actually, I rarely ever say no, it's, it's not, no, it's, Hey, have you met this guy? Because

there's usually, if I can't do it, there's somebody else that, that can, and it's, it is so much fun

pioneering and exploring new space for, for the kingdom. And so, but Hey, with this, we're going

to land a plane, check out, uh, river city, Vancouver.com for, for Ryan's, uh, check out,

uh, leading that.org, uh, MLC and DLC for what's coming up, the metaverse and digital learning

communities and excited about pioneering this new idea of a digital and metaverse missions. So,

Hey, uh, check out, I know Jeff got your, Jeff got your hopes up about mission trips. Don't expect

to meet your partner on this virtual mission trip. If we could arrange some virtual reality marriages,

there's, there's an interesting documentary. It was on, it was on HBO max. It was centered around,

um, a married, a couple that got married in VR chat. Was that the Taco Bell one?

No, there was a Taco Bell couple that got married in the Taco Bell metaverse recently. That was

no kidding. That, that would be, it's 2023, man. It's getting weird. So, Hey, um, lean into this

stuff and, uh, and, uh, try not to meet, well, yeah, let's see. You want to find your wife in

virtual reality. But we're going to land the plane for, uh, for Ryan. This is Jeff at the church

digital and digital church network. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. Season five,

continuing next week with tsunami. See y'all then talk to you later.