EP274 - Dave Ferguson, BLESS, Digital Missionaries & Next Level Ministry

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, everybody. It's episode 274. 274 of the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here,

founder of the Church Digital, Digital Church Network. And well, let's just say Dave Ferguson

signs multiple of my paychecks. And therefore, it is my pleasure to have Dave Ferguson on this show

today. I have said it publicly many times, and Dave Ferguson, we trust. So therefore, I'm really going

to love having this podcast conversation with Dave. We'll get into what we're going to talk about

here in a little bit. Before we get there, hey, this season here, we're talking about taking your

digital and metaverse ministry to the next level. And so to do that, we've really been tying all this

together into our learning communities that we're running through Leadership Network. You see, we've

got a digital learning community. We're helping churches that have digital ministry that are maybe

broadcasting a church service online and maybe toying with the idea of small groups. We're really

helping them take next steps beyond what they're doing centered around the weekend, looking at, hey,

what digital community could look like, what maybe even digital planting looks like, starting to

more better, I don't know if that's good English, more better understand what digital community is

beyond just digital communication. Dave Ferguson is literally laughing at me. This is incredible.

So hey, look, if you're interested in the digital learning community, it's leadnet.org slash

DLC. Leadnet.org slash DLC. Metaverse, maybe you're interested in exploring the metaverse,

understanding what virtual reality and what churches are. The huge missional opportunity

that exists in the virtual reality space. And so how to have conversations, how to share Jesus,

how to be the church in virtual reality, wearing that new Apple headset that's going to be coming

out in a couple of weeks that everybody and their mother is going to pay $3,000 for. I'm not kidding.

It's going to revolutionize things. Listen, if you're interested in the leadership network,

metaverse learning community, that's leadnet.org slash

MLC, metaverse learning community for that one. We've got

incredible co-leaders in this. It's going to be a great learning community.

Oh, and did I mention the metaverse mission trip? Now you have to

go back to some past podcasts to understand how we are challenging churches like yours to go on a mission trip

into virtual reality and how churches are already doing that. Organizations globally

are doing that alongside you with that. So some really awesome things.

Leadnet.org slash DLC for digital learning community,

MLC for the metaverse learning community, and we'll put the links in the show notes.

Dave, how was that for commercials? Was that like, was it short, succinct?

Was it too long? Like, give me some criticism.

That was awesome. Number 274, huh?

Dang. 274. I wanted to call this to your attention.

You sound like Kerry Newhoff.

No, no, no, no. Kerry Newhoff. Well, Kerry Newhoff's been doing a lot.

And Kerry Newhoff is, you know, funding behind what he's doing.

But what's interesting is I had you on, this is years ago, for the 10,000th podcast.

Like, your episode was the 10,000th podcast play that we had had through the Church Digital.

And just a week or so ago, we...

By, let's be honest, by accident.

It's not like you're going, hey, 10,000, we should get Dave Ferguson on to celebrate.

No, it was like, oh, crap, look, we just wasted our 10,000th episode on Ferguson.

That's what happened.

Oh, the humility in the room. This is so great.

But we had, we just hit 100,000 plays.

Just the truth.

Yeah. That's awesome.

So, listen, that was exciting for us.

We've been doing this pre-COVID.

We started 20, I want to say 2018 or 2019.

I'd actually have to go back and look.

And it's been a lot of...

That's good timing for what you're pushing here.

It's been a lot of learnings.

It's been a lot of fun.

And you have been on three times, I believe.

And so, we're excited to have you on here for number three here.

And, you know, it's funny.

I just got a text.

Go ahead.

And I'll tell you what.

Let me give you a little plug, okay?

And I'll tell all your audience, too.

This goes back to one of our initial conversations.

I do feel like, for some reason, God's favor is on you.

And he's kind of like teed you up for such an important, I think, mission and part of the mission during this season of the life of the church.

So, I think it's pretty cool to get to be Jeff Reed.

Yeah.

Every once in a while, God gives little sneak peeks.

I don't think I've got the full vision in sight, but just little glimpses of what he's working on.

And to be honest, I'm struggling to keep up.

And so, it's going to be really exciting, I think, the next couple months.

As some of these opportunities and some of these God things start to actually come to fruition.

Some of the conversations now here in the U.S. and even globally.

Literally, I had a conversation.

I don't even think that I've updated the New Thing team on this yesterday.

But I had a conversation yesterday that I just about fell out of my seat when it was done.

Let's hear it.

Huh?

Oh, no, no.

I can't say it.

Give me a little hint.

Come on.

No, no, no.

You can't do that to me.

I mean, Futurist is like one of my top strength finders.

And it's like you're teasing me.

So, give us a little bit of something to go on.

Okay, so let's…

Why the adrenaline rush from yesterday's conversation?

I had a…

Not even a Christian tech company.

Yesterday, I had a full-on tech company offer me a full-time job.

Nice.

And why?

What was it so…

What was so compelling that they're going like, hey, we need Jeffree.

We got to pay him bucks.

We got to pay a full salary.

What was the…

A tech company is trying to launch 1,800 to 5,500 churches in virtual reality in the

next 12 months.

Not a Christian tech company.

A tech company that's developing a virtual reality platform wants to see church engagement

to the point where they're asking for 1,800 to 5,500 churches to get launched on their platform.

And I'm guessing for them, they just said, this is an untapped market.

There's huge opportunities to use the religious in that space to drive engagement into their platform.

There's a monetary subscription to use the platform.

I mean, this has not been a factor from top to bottom.

But incredible opportunities there.

And so that's…

I mean, that's just one really small…

And I'm like, okay, I'm not taking a full-time job.

We got to figure this out.

I got a nonprofit.

Let's run it through that.

Let's create a partnership.

We're kind of talking through some of this now.

But this is…

And they're looking for opportunities to engage and to get better connected in the Christian

space and to get connected to churches and Christian tech companies for integrations.

And so, yeah, there's just this, yeah, let's keep talking.

And that's one of…

Dave, I'll just be honest with you.

And when I'm doing this recording right now, I'm having nine conversations like that in

the next two weeks of just nine different either Christian organizations, Christian tech

companies, corporations, non-Christian corporations that are interested.

Like, there's this wave of…

That's what I'm saying.

This is glimpses of God.

Because, I mean, listen, I love that you respect me and said what you just said.

I am a freaking AVL guy who just happened to stumble in front of a camera during COVID.

And all of a sudden, everybody's like, ooh, Jeff.

And so, humbly, you know, I'm going to do the humble brag here, except this.

How cool is it?

How cool?

No, no, but it is.

How cool it is that God…

I mean, you know, like, you love this stuff as much as anybody.

How cool is it that God goes like, you know what?

Just for grins.

I'm going to let Jeff be kind of one of the leading voices, if not the leading voice in

the world of this stuff.

That's…

That's pretty awesome.

It's a lot of fun.

And just to see…

Honestly, just to see God move through it.

Because this thing has blown away today.

Like, before today, but where I sit in this chair right now, never in my wildest dreams

did I imagine I would be in this chair having this conversation, do 275 podcasts, talking

with Dave Ferguson, after writing a book based on Dave Ferguson's stuff, championing this

idea, talking to all these corporations.

And to be honest, several of these corporations I'm talking with, the reason I'm talking with

them is because I wrote this book with Dr. John Harris based on Dave Ferguson's stuff.

Oh, that's awesome.

Like, the Sharing Jesus Online book was really the front door to a lot of this.

And I know that's where we're going to go next, right?

That's where we're going to go next, because that's what you said you wanted to talk about.

But I do think we should have a conversation because my hunch is you're really good at the

sales part of this, attracting people's attention, correcting interest.

Maybe a new thing, we got to figure out a way how we can help.

Because if you've got nine of these in the pipeline, I mean, who's the person who can come

alongside you and actually, you know, the same way you kind of already told me, you know,

you get someone else finally now to do your finances because it's like you suck at it.

Who can we get to actually operate?

You know, like, you're kind of the visionary.

Where do we find an integrator who can actually make these things hum?

Yeah.

It's so funny you said the word integrator.

We're actually, I know that's good.

And that's exactly, that's the approach that we're using.

We've read, this is so good.

I mean, this has nothing to do with the podcast.

We want to have, ladies and gentlemen, but this is meaningful to you.

The book, I know.

This is a coaching session right now.

Traction.

Here we go.

Yeah.

Have you been reading that EOS system?

We read that a year ago.

And so we were, DCN, we were toying with that idea.

We couldn't find, honestly, we couldn't find the integrator.

And so we really did not have the opportunity to explore it because we just, we didn't have

the right personnel at the right time to implement that system.

And Dave, I don't think I told you this story.

So the, there was a guy that reached out to me right after Exponential Orlando.

Now, this is funny.

We're at, we're at Exponential Orlando and, and, you know, we had a bunch of gamer guys

that were kind of hanging out with, with, with the Digital Church Network.

And, and so we did a podcast with him.

You go back and listen to it.

It's in season four or something.

But we, one night during Exponential, I think it was the Wednesday night.

We got all the gamer guys together at, at a guy who lives in Orlando.

His name's Bernie's house.

Bernie, uh, Mapili.

We got it together at Bernie's house and we invited over.

He gets us, um, glue came over to meet with these gamer guys to talk about how we can get.

He gets us in the gamer culture.

So after Expo, I get a call from Bernie.

I really don't know Bernie at all.

Um, Bernie says to me, he says, Jeff, uh, he says, you're like, you, you and I are like

the same person.

You don't know me, but I'm really passionate about a digital church, gamer church.

He's really, he's, he's an entrepreneur.

He's created all these businesses.

He's trying to do this stuff.

And he said, I don't understand how you got, he gets us in my living room at 10 o'clock

at night on a Wednesday night for three hours to talk about gamers.

Like how you have that influence.

And, and I told, I told him the same thing.

I'm telling you, I'm like, Hey, I don't, I don't, I don't know how to do this.

Like this, I can't, I can't brag about this.

This is just a God thing.

This is, you're, you're unconsciously, you're unconsciously competent, but this, this is

what's funny.

Bernie says to me, instead of me, instead of Bernie trying to do what he's doing, because

he's been struggling to really make the impact at the church level, business level is incredible

church level.

He's like, it's, it's not, it's not happening.

So, so Bernie says to me, I'm bragging about Bernie here.

Hey, you know what, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to, Jeff, I want to work for you for

free.

I essentially, he's like, I want to be your integrator for your business, for the, for

the business side, for the ministry side of what you're doing.

And so Bernie came on, uh, we, we onboarded digital church network.

We went from four leaders to 15 leaders, like overnight over the span of like four weeks,

just building these infrastructures, these systems, recruiting these leaders.

And, and it's so exciting now to see people like understanding the vision of this thing.

And it's like, I don't, I, Jeff don't have to tell them what to do.

They are challenging.

I had one of my guys, one of my, one of my, uh, four R's, one of my R directors, my, my

relationship guy, he challenged me down.

He shot an idea that I had down.

And the funny thing was he used my exact words to do it.

Like when he was done telling me no, and I heard what he said, I was like.

I told you to say that.

Like, I told you that I taught you that he's like, yes, I actually listened to you and you're

right.

So do what you say.

And so it was, it was really funny.

I do.

I love the season.

I love, um, I love where ministry is taking and, uh, the friends at new thing have been

incredible and will continue to be incredible.

I'm sure as our relationships grow through it.

So, Hey, you know what?

We are like 20 minutes into this podcast or 15 minutes into this podcast.

And we actually really want to talk about the topic at hand.

Uh, and so Dave, you know, Hey, I have a, I have a question though.

You do this every time I have you on the show.

I want to acknowledge this.

I bring you on for a topic and you're like, no, no, no.

Forget the topic.

We're just going to go off.

No, my, my question is, you know, you wrote this great book, but where's Dr.

John Harris, he's supposed to be here.

Yeah.

So Dr.

John Harris literally just entered the room right now.

Dr.

John, you want to say, Hey, there he is.

Look at that.

Hey guys.

I am not sure what happened there.

Dr.

John, uh, we've been filling, we've been filling time waiting for the expert to get here.

Oh, well then I'll, I'll wait with you.

Oh, good time.

So, uh, yeah, this podcast was supposed to be three and Dr.

John, um, is, is jumping on.

He got caught up in some other things, but we're excited to, to have him on.

Uh, John, we've been, uh, uh, randomly talking.

You, you'll have to go back to the, listen to this podcast to actually understand what we've

been talking about in the scope.

We've been kind of all over the map, just, um, maybe intentionally stalling for you to

have this conference first, have this conversation together centered around, um, blessed

practices, how to bless the church, sharing Jesus online.

Digital and, and, and really, you know, John, we, we launched the book back in, uh, January,

January, January, January, four months ago.

And, uh, you know, it's gotten a lot of attention online.

We've seen, we've seen, we've seen a lot of success with it, uh, a lot of exposure with

other organizations, a lot of questions now being asked about digital missionaries in,

in places that I know it wasn't talked about before.

And so, um, you know, I wanted to bring us together, the three of us, cause you know,

uh, Dr.

John, we didn't, we didn't have Dave.

I don't, when we did develop the marketing plan for the book, it never occurred to either

of us to like have a conversation with Dave Ferguson.

I just, we probably, probably should have had a conversation with Dave Ferguson and say,

why don't you do a podcast with us?

Like when the book launches?

No, that didn't make sense.

So we'll do it after the fact and, and, and, and enjoy the, the greatness of, of that.

So, uh, so Hey, both of you, thanks for jumping on, on this podcast and, and, and joining in.

So Dave, uh, I'd love to just, you know, dig in with you a little bit.

We're going to spitball back and forth between the two of you guys, but, uh, where did the,

where'd the concept of, of bless it may be even a summarization, a little bit of bless,

but where'd this concept come from?

Uh, I think it's some ways it goes way back.

It kind of came from some of my own frustration with trying to share, uh, the good news, share

the love of God and Jesus with the people that I love, my neighbors, uh, whether it's the

neighbors right next door, where you live, you know, where you work, where you play.

I literally, like, I remember when I, like, as a, as a, as a young leader, actually, even

as he, even when we were first planting the church or no, before that, I'd say, I, I was

one of those guys who was super on fire.

And I mean, I would do like, I would do like street evangelism.

I would do, um, things that, um, uh, where I'm going door to door.

Uh, basically I was just harassing people and answering questions, uh, that they weren't

asking and was being, you know, just obnoxious.

And, um, and I found, you know, I found out that that didn't work.

And so I kind of swung the other way and I said, you know what, here's what I'm going

to do.

I'm just going to live my life like Jesus and see if, you know, that makes an impact.

And so didn't use any words and kind of just, uh, tried to do the right thing.

And my neighbors thought I was a good guy.

My neighbors, I think liked being my neighbor.

They liked having me as a neighbor, but it also didn't result in me getting to share, uh,

Jesus with them.

And so it was really a result of that frustration.

And by that point I'd already planted a church and I was going, okay, there's got to be a

better way both for me and for the people in my church.

And there were, there were a couple of different things that happened along the way that really

kind of pointed us towards these blessed practices.

But essentially at the very beginning, it came out of my own frustration of like, you know,

trying to kind of shoot people with my gospel gun or just passively do nothing.

And neither one of those worked.

Uh, and so blessed practices, uh, begin with prayer, uh, listen, uh, now the, in the physical

book there, the book that, that, uh, Dave and his brother, John wrote, uh, it's, um, eat

together, the physical expression of, of eating to build a relationship.

And then it's then serve.

And then it's share, uh, share Jesus, share your Jesus story.

That's, that's the acronym of, of blessing.

And, and, and, and Dave, your book published on this.

I know, I think you were doing it before the book published, but the book published in what?

21, 20, 2020.

Yeah.

21.

Yeah.

We, now we probably, I mean, and we went through a couple of different iterations that didn't

work, um, around that.

Um, but then we, we probably were, we'd probably been doing this at community and then other

places for, uh, eight years before we ever published the book.

So it's, it's not like something that was kind of like a theory and go like, Hey, let's get,

let's just write it up and see if it works.

So then we began to see it work and really in real people's lives.

And, uh, so we, we probably did it eight years before we published the book in 2021.

All right.

So I got to ask this cause I had no idea there were iterations.

Yeah.

What was the biggest screw up?

What was the biggest, oh crap, that's not going to work.

Um, what was the biggest lesson in the iterations?

Oh, we had, I mean, they, they weren't really that interesting, but we did like, I remember

before that we were, we, we brought our whole staff team together, including the spouses.

Cause we wanted to kind of start with them.

We felt like we were going to change the culture, start with them.

And we had like two or three questions we wanted you to ask every week.

And they were interesting, but they, they didn't, they weren't as sticky, um, as this.

And it was pretty quickly when we kind of started using the blessed stuff, the blessed practices.

And then we started with the staff that we began to unfold into other key leaders and influence

our church.

And then eventually this is kind of, we even talk about how to change the culture.

Uh, eventually then the whole church, um, it really got traction.

And so, but there were, yeah, there were a couple of them that were, nope, that's not

going to work.

Let's start over again.

Yeah.

And then that leads us up to, you know, arguably one of the greatest moments of my 45 year old

life, uh, when, uh, 2022 Dave Ferguson walks up to me and says, Hey Jeff, you know what?

You should write a book.

Uh, and, um, uh, we had the opportunity, uh, to write, uh, uh, sharing Jesus online, uh, which

is a, it was a book that was based off of blessed practices based off of Dave's framework, uh, Dave

and John's framework and, and poured it over.

And I, at the time, uh, did not think I had the capacity to write the book on my own.

I was in the middle of writing another book, uh, on virtual reality churches.

And I was like, Hey, you know what we should do?

We should totally bring in a coauthor into the situation.

And that's where Dr. John Harris, who is having internet issues, uh, came into the conversation.

I'm like, stop.

Now that's, now that is ironic.

This is the biggest trade record of a podcast.

I'm literally, I'm watching John, like, come on the screen and come off and come on and

come off.

And, and, uh, and so the question I was about to ask is Dr. John, talk about the book.

And so let me, I got, I got to bring him back in.

Hopefully we're going to get him in the next five seconds.

If not, I'm going to answer John's question for him.

John, Dr. John Harris, lead pastor of Hearts Like His, a, uh, Facebook, primarily Facebook

church, uh, that's online currently a discipleship movement.

Maybe some would call it that, but Hey, John, talk to us a little bit, um, you know, about

the book, maybe the process for you for, for writing it, some of the experiences, um, what,

how we ported bless into how we adopted bless into digital, uh, space.

Like what was, what was that process like for you?

Yeah.

I, I think when, uh, I had seen, uh, Dave and John's book a few years ago and even when

I saw it then I thought like, this is, this is the kind of thing that, um, that Christians

are looking for a, a practical how to like, what do I do?

I don't need to hear more sermons about why it's necessary to, to, to, to share Jesus.

I know that we should do that.

No one's telling me how.

And so when I saw that book, I thought it's very simple, practical, memorable, all of that.

And so, um, so that was just kind of like in the, in, in the background mind, uh, for a

while, as I thought, you know, that's a great in-person kind of, kind of deal.

And there are some elements of that, that even in my own neighborhood, cause I moved, uh, my

family moved here in 2019 that I was implementing here, just, just locally.

Uh, like for me, um, I used to be the guy that's like, I will live across the street

from you.

And if we see each other checking the mail, I'll wave.

And that's pretty much it, you know?

Um, and so when I moved here, there are principles about bless that I had in mind that helped me

to go, let me start connecting.

Let me start being more intentional with, with, with conversations beyond, Hey, how are

you?

Uh, so like now I know all my neighbors names.

I know their kids' names.

I know their school, what they go to with one of them is my babysitter across the street,

really cool relationships.

And so when we started Hearts Like His in January of 2021, uh, being online and it first

started off with us trying to target those who had left the church and things like that,

really not shooting for, um, the unsaved necessarily, but trying to, um, uh, trying to

turn around the trend of the rise of the duns and trying to be a part of the return of

the duns.

So you have these two groups of people that are really looking to be empowered.

Those who left the church, but still love Jesus.

And those who are still regularly attending the church.

And so during COVID, it was a cool opportunity because everyone was all online, right?

Everyone has left the church, so to speak.

So in the midst of this pandemic, how can we equip people to take advantage of the evangelistic

opportunities that are also online?

It's not just Christians, but everyone else is looking.

So we were looking at this book and, uh, just the idea to, to, um, to put a tool like

this in Christians' hands so they can do evangelism online.

Um, I just was like, yes, and thank you for the opportunity to be a part of, of, of doing

that.

So, um, so yeah, so that was kind of some of my rationale.

And then you, you couple that with all of the, um, uh, the, the research, the reports, the

statistics about what people are doing online, looking for answers online, all those kinds

of things with the rise of digital evangelism on all these different platforms that we're

able to kind of bring together and share in the earlier parts, even throughout, throughout

the book.

Like, this is, this is a game changer.

And so we can answer that question.

What should you do?

Especially when you're spending a lot of time online and you're seeing comments come across

your feed.

You're seeing people reach out for help, but you're not a pastor.

You're using, you're seeing people ask questions, but you might not know the answer.

So letting all these opportunities every day pass you by.

And so I was like, man, if we can partner together and create something to answer that

same question, what can you do online?

That'll be huge.

That'll be huge.

Totally.

Yeah.

And so the book is available for download for free.

Thank you to exponential, but it's at sharingjesusonline.com.

And so that, that is a, is a PDF that you can download.

It's a book you can buy, uh, through, uh, Amazon.

Uh, I'm happy to say my mom was the first to buy the book.

Um, my mom, uh, was, uh, not the only person to buy the book.

Like we've, we've, we've had some, some moderate success and downloads, you know, last I checked,

it was well over a thousand, uh, downloads on that.

So I was, I was kind of excited.

A thousand people are walking around with, with, with the resource, right?

It's a big step in the right direction.

So definitely excited about where we're going with some of this.

And so you can check out the book sharing Jesus online for, for that.

Now, um, Dave, and if you listen to the first 15, 20 minutes of the podcast, you know,

you've always been a huge supporter of, of, of me.

Thank you.

Of, of, but of digital and of, of recognizing, you know, a lot of people don't recognize the

relational context of, of digital, but you've always been a proponent of, of that in, in,

in supporting of that, or at least in my context of you where I'm curious.

So where, where did this like come from?

What, why are you such a fan of digital?

You don't often find a lot of lead pastors in your position, taking the stance that you

are.

What, what, what makes you the, the unicorn here?

Uh, I don't know.

Um, I think maybe in some ways I'm, I mean, yeah, I, I, I am a lead pastor, but I'm, I

probably think more like an entrepreneur and I, even on strength finders, I'm, I have, I'm

high on the futuristic and it just seems obvious to me.

It's just obvious to me that, um, for the church to move forward, I mean, and I'm, this

is what I've been telling people both through new thing and exponential is, I mean, yeah,

there's still going to continue to be macro expressions.

And I think there's a whole bunch, uh, you know, like our friend, Rob Wagner and other

people, there's gonna be a whole bunch of micro expressions, but the other part that

we got to take into consideration is also meta expressions.

And so we're going to, we're going to have all three is, and I think we need to think

in terms of multiple expressions of church to reach all the people.

And I mean, it's, it's the worldwide web for Pete's sake.

Okay.

So it just, it, to me, it seems obvious.

Um, you know, I mean, people are, I mean, people are building deep enough connections

that they're meeting each other and getting married.

Most folks now that's how they meet people and that's how they start dating online.

So, I mean, it's like, yes, you can build relationships online and, and yes, you can build

disciples online.

So I, I, I do think as church leaders, um, we either, we need to both get on board.

And if we're not doing ourselves the same way, you may not champion like a church plant

to a certain context.

Cause you're going like, well, I don't, I really don't know anything about rural.

I don't really feel comfortable in the city.

I'm more of a suburban guy.

Well, great.

That's fine.

But at least give your people permission and encourage them to do it and go there.

And I think that same thing's true with the meta.

So, you know, a lot of, I mean, obviously there's a lot of pastors that, that don't

have the vision that you have in this space.

Um, one of the things that I love about community Christian is you've run, and I would love,

what is actually the term, you know, Stadia used to call it multimodal where you, there

were multiple models of church that were operating.

Uh, you know, and so what, what, what does community call that?

Like, cause you've, you've got the physical church, you're doing some things online, you're

doing, uh, micro church models, prison, like what, what, what's the term for the multiple

streams kind of with that?

Yeah, we, we actually talked about like before COVID, we would say we're one church with multiple

locations.

Now you'd hear us consistently say we're one church with multiple expressions, and so those,

those, yeah, expressions, those four right now are exactly what you said.

I mean, there's the digital expression.

There's also the physical expression, which is in our locations.

There's also in prison facilities through community freedom, and then also our micro expressions.

And that's been really taken off.

You know, so after I'm, I'm calling us in a post COVID society, hopefully that's understood.

Uh, but you know, in this season, a lot of churches are focusing on what worked in the

past.

Uh, they, they want to simplify down to, to one expression.

Um, but you're seeing, I'm, I'm hoping, and I'd love to hear about what success you're seeing

multiple, uh, and, and starting to have multiple expressions like you're, you're, you're doing

now.

What would you tell a pastor?

Like, how would you coach a pastor who's, who's trying to go back and simplify towards, uh, only one expression?

Well, I mean, I, I think you're leaving.

I think you're, I think you're missing a lot of opportunity, a lot of opportunity in the, in the

language we use of community Christian church to help people find their way back to God.

Um, I mean, like for, I, I think I, I, I, I bet every new person that showed up at a physical

location of community Christian church, I mean, a hundred percent have first experienced us

digitally.

They come and check out our website, they watch us online.

And so at the very least, I mean, it's, if you think in terms of just marketing, it's, it's,

it's top of the funnel for, for reaching people at the very least.

Now, having said that though, we have some, and I tell people this, I mean, for some people

like community online, community.tv, I mean, for some of them, it actually is their home.

And for those people where that's your home, we tell them, we want you to have three connections.

It's not good enough just to sit there and watch, watch the video.

Okay.

Every week and worship with that.

No, we also want you to let your connection with God.

We also want you to be connected in a small group and that could be digital, but we also

want you serving.

And you guys are going to describe in some of the ways you can serve online.

So we want you to be involved in all three, all three expressions.

If you're going to be a disciple, but we do think that can happen that way.

Um, but the other thing that's pretty, that's also, and it's a little off topic a little

bit, but what we've done with the micro expressions, which does integrate really with the digital

is really exciting.

I mean, right now, I think in the last 19 or 20 months, we've been able to start 31 micro

churches.

Some of them are local, like in Chicago, some are local in Chicago, some are across the country,

but others are in places like India and Uganda, because those folks will participate in our

community online.

We advertise our micro church training and they say, Hey, can we be a part of it?

And we say, absolutely.

And so they get the training and then they also, they say, Hey, we would like to start

a community micro church.

And then what we do is we give them ongoing coaching after that.

And I'm telling our staff too, cause I think last count, there's about 900 folks weekly that

are part of our micro expressions, micro churches.

And what I'm telling them, I'm going like, listen, this, this I'm telling our staff that this would,

this is like our third largest physical location.

And there's a good chance.

Well, seriously, you got 900 folks.

Right.

And I said, and you know, and you know, a year from now or two years from now, it'll probably

be our largest expression.

So don't keep putting it off the side.

Like, Oh, that's a cute thing we do.

And by the way, I mean, how much money does it cost us?

I mean, we got one staff person who's also a location pastor who, Rodrigo Cano, who's

brilliant at this, who does the training and a lot of the coaching.

And then we give him, I mean, I think maybe, I don't know, I think maybe he spent $20,000.

I compare that to like what it talks, you typically cost to launch a location or a church with a

macro, you know, I mean, you're spending a half million dollars and all that kind of stuff.

So I'm, yeah.

So, but it's kind of cool because it is a micro or micro churches, but we're actually

doing the training, you know, digitally.

And that's, and it's using that platform that's making it happen, which is pretty cool.

John, as you're hearing this, you know, I know obviously digital plays, plays a big

part with what you're doing.

What, what advice, what counsel, what, what coaching would you offer to, to a pastor who

is struggling with, with digital and really embracing in that?

I think I would, I would begin with asking some questions, like what is it, I mean, typically

when a leader, whether in the church, outside the church, is really struggling with some

kind of new idea or innovation or, you know, opportunity, there's a fear there.

So I think helping an individual identify, like what, what are you most concerned about?

What are you, what are you afraid could go wrong?

What are you afraid of losing?

What are you, you know, and then kind of explore that.

And once we get there, then look at how these opportunities, I mean, to kind of reframe what

these opportunities look like.

And so if we actually put the mission first and we think about opportunities for in-person

church multiplication and micro church multiplication, and then, and the potential for lives to be

changed that way, and then talk about the opportunity for that to be exponentially, pun intended,

multiplied online.

I mean, think about once people wrap their minds around digital micro churches, I mean,

you can just imagine what can happen online with digital micro churches once people, especially

in the pews, you know, so to speak, understand that one is biblically valid and legitimate.

Like this is kingdom work.

And then number two, they can do it.

Number three, it doesn't have to look like Sunday morning.

It can be four or five people.

It can be all around the world at any time.

I mean, the opportunities for digital evangelism and discipleship are massive if we actually put

mission first.

And so when talking to pastors who might stumble over little pieces of it, I want to know what

part of it are you stumbling over and how does your ecclesiology need to shift?

And how does your missiology need to shift?

I mean, that's where the conversation really is.

And once people go, okay, you know, go and make disciples in all the world, okay, it's really

easy to have a conversation about the opportunities online.

Once we deal with whatever hurdles or obstacles that are mentally, maybe even theologically

with, uh, with doing it online.

I'll tell you what, I want to jump in there.

I think you made a good point, John.

I think one of the things that does get in the way of a lot of pastors is their ecclesiology.

And, you know, so that's kind of a $10 word for what, how you, what you think makes up

a church.

And I think one of the, maybe one of the things that's made it simple or for us a community

is we would define church this way.

A community of people on mission together where Jesus is King.

If you've got those three parts, a community of people on mission together, like you said,

missions first where Jesus is King.

Okay.

No, he's Lord.

So he gets to decide what happens here.

If you've got those three parts, you've got a church.

And so that's why for me, it's a real, it's, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a long leap

to go like, yeah, you could do this on Facebook.

You know, you could, you could, you could, you could do this, you know, online, you could

on discord or wherever platform you decide to use.

And to, to, uh, to add to that, I think the idea there is typically when a pastor is stumbling

over a digital church, they have a more complex view of what the church is.

Once you simplify it, then it's really easy to see the opportunities to have that expression

on online.

Number one.

And then number two, when we begin to share life change stories about what's happening

online, then that also took, that also is another way to help pastors think mission first and

go, man, okay, if a person's life is being changed, like God did something, there's a clear

moving from A to B, I was blind and now I see, and I'm connected to a community that's helped

me grow in faith.

Like what pastor, what pastor, you know, argues with that.

And goes, ah, I don't see God in it.

I don't know what, you know, so, so I think simplifying the ecclesiology, I think sharing

life change stories of, of salvation, of discipleship, of people being free from stuff.

Those are the two main things I would, I would do once we talk about what is that, what is

your fear?

So those are things I would say to Kevin, and I've seen it happen.

I've seen a pastor ship.

I was talking to a group of pastors and church consultants on one occasion, and as I was sharing

words with it going on, they, they, they also began to see the opportunities here for, for

what God's doing online.

You know, I, it's, um, I've heard, I've heard Ed love, uh, Dave, what, what denomination

is Ed love with?

I'm, I'm just blanking right now.

Do you know?

Do I have to stop your head?

Um.

Of course I'd call you on it.

You don't.

I'm sorry.

Um.

No.

That's all right.

I, but I've heard him talk.

I did a podcast with him.

Guess what?

Guess what?

You have Google.

I have the internet.

Yeah.

I figured it out while I'm talking, but Ed, you know, Ed used the term.

It's funny.

It's not minimal ecclesiology because, because minimal indicates you're, you're, you're, you're,

you're getting rid of Wesleyan.

He's a Wesleyan.

I should know that because they're like one of the biggest groups that comes exponential.

Yeah, there you go.

God love the Wesleyan people.

Thank, thank you.

I'd love, but he uses the term essential ecclesiology, you know, it's, and it's, it's

that boiling, you know, boiling it down to what's essential as opposed to, you know,

hiding and, and minimalizing what's, what's sweeping away, you know, it's, we're doing a

podcast season here.

We're talking about next level moving beyond the weekend service.

And just this conversation is, is ironic to me because three of the six episodes, I didn't

plan it, but three of the six episodes have churches that are, that are really strong in

digital micro church that are using digital for a micro church strategy.

We've had Tyler Sansom on was earlier and first capital Christian church anywhere.

They've got a small church of like 800, I say small, medium sized church of 800 people

has like 25 micro locations.

In addition to all sorts of other crazy stuff Tyler's doing, uh, Jay Crand is on next week.

And, you know, I know Jay through Saddleback has, is, is moving towards a decentralized model

as well, in addition to what they're doing in the physical space.

And so there's a lot of opportunities for churches to think differently with how digital

is and to move beyond just doing that streaming service, which is really the heart of what

we're trying to do with, with the learning communities, the leadership network, which is

why we were at like Tyler, Hey Tyler, come in and, and, and co-lead this with us and try

to help us get, um, get going with this to help churches understand how to move beyond just

broadcasting that service and doing something more tangible, more missional, more evangelic

with, uh, with the, the digital tool.

As a matter of fact, uh, the, the sharing Jesus online book, um, you know, we, I've talked

about this actually is written up, uh, in a positive light and a negative light by relevant magazine.

Uh, but we are, we're doing a, uh, uh, some, some mission trips into the metaverse.

We're, we're helping churches go and take their people on, on, on a mission trip.

We did a podcast on this earlier this year as well, but looking at, um, uh, you know, instead

of buying a plane ticket to go to, I don't know, Belize to go on a mission trip to Belize,

you know, instead of missing that week's worth of work and spending the hotel and getting

your visa and passport, all that, we're challenging people to go buy a Oculus two for $350 and,

and, and to literally the training is the book sharing Jesus online, which you can download

for free and learn how to do the blessed practices in virtual reality.

We're literally challenging people to get a headset, go into the metaverse and, and, and

learn how to share Jesus relationally with, by the way, people in virtual reality are far

more interested in having a conversation than people in physical space.

You go up to somebody at Starbucks and start a random conversation, you're, there's a possibility,

especially here in Miami, there's a, there's a decent chance I'm going to get an F-bomb.

Virtual reality, you're not going to get F-bombs.

Like it just, it doesn't work in that way.

They want to talk that some of these world, like there's literally a world that's called

VR chat and it's not called chat because of anything else other than the fact that people

want to talk in that world.

And so there's opportunities to start to dialogue in, in new ways through it.

And so check out the learning community, uh, leadnet.org slash DLC, digital learning

community, leadnet.org, MLC for the metaverse learning community.

And, uh, more information is, is there on that.

Well, well guys, we have, we packed a lot in here and into this podcast, Dr. John, your

tech held up.

We're very excited about that.

Thanks for, thanks for coming in.

Man, it was, it was kind of crazy, but I'm glad to be able to participate a little bit

and appreciate the opportunity to hang out with you guys.

Very cool.

And, and Dave, it's, it's always a pleasure.

So maybe, maybe as we're landing the plane here, a brief moment, Dr. John, any closing

thoughts on your side?

I would just encourage, uh, uh, pastors to, and hopefully this discussion has helped them

kind of think, um, outside of any box that they have been in.

And I think to some degree, all of us are in some kind of box that just box gets bigger.

Um, and we, in the Holy Spirit, just want us to put mission first, mission first, mission

first.

And so to see opportunities online as well, to, to, to not just be a threat to in-person,

but a supplement, an additional extension of the ministry.

And, um, so in-person can launch into digital and, and digital can actually create some in-person,

uh, relationships.

So we had one house church start, start from a heart like his and that house church planted

another, another house church all from starting digital.

I mean, that person is in Colorado, I'm in California.

And so, um, there's just so many things that God's doing and, uh, uh, doing it online is

opportunity to be a part of ways of doing globally, um, in the most least expensive way possible.

Very cool.

So we've had, we've had four people on that, that are doing my microchurch.

I didn't realize you had grown to, to a microchurch level yourself.

That's cool.

Dave, as, as we're landing the plane here in any closing thoughts on your side?

Yeah.

My, my closing thought is I, I see why you recruited Dr.

John to coauthor this book with you.

No kidding.

Nice.

Nicely done.

Very cool.

The secret was, was that, um, I probably wrote the first draft of the book.

I probably wrote 60% of the book and Dr.

John wrote 40% of the book.

And, uh, by the time that the, the final version was, was written, Dr.

John had probably written about 70% of the book and I'd probably written about 30.

So he, uh, at some point he flipped the switch and it was like, boom, all Dr.

John all over the place.

And let's let, I just, I'll, I'll publicly say it like it is so much better than what I

was drafting on my side.

So it really came out well.

So you can check out the book, sharingjesusonline.com.

Um, you know, obviously Dave with exponential, with leadership network, with community, with

new things, so many different hats and opportunities there.

And it's a pleasure to work inside that ecosystem, uh, that is so supportive of a digital church,

digital discipleship, digital ministry, um, and seeing Dave and, uh, and family and friends

over there in that, in those, those worlds, um, really champion and get behind some of the

work that's happening here.

It's been a blessing.

And so I, I consider it a joy to know both of these guys, uh, Dr. John and Dave have been

influential for me in the past couple of years.

And I'm looking forward to much more to come check out the learning communities, check out

the book and, uh, thanks y'all for joining on the podcast.

So for Dr. John, for Dave, this is Jeff with the church, digital digital church network.

Thanks for jumping on the pod here.

See you next time on the show.

Y'all have a good day.