EP275 - Jay Kranda & Getting Your Church to Experiment

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of Church Digital,

Digital Church Network. You've got episode 275. We've got Jake Randa coming up right around the

corner. Excited about this. Anytime we get Jake Randa on. Well, we'll get into that here in a

little bit. It's going to be some good stuff. Hey, we've got a learning community coming up with

Leadership Network. We've been talking about it all of this season. We've been talking about

a digital learning community, a metaverse virtual learning community, getting exposed

to the idea of digital communities and virtual reality communities and what churches look like in

that space. Even talking about doing digital and metaverse mission trips, getting your people exposed

to some new concepts, some new ideas in digital and in virtual reality ministry. So if you're

interested in those learning communities, check out leadnet.org slash DLC for the digital one or

leadnet.org slash MLC metaverse learning community for that one as well. We'll put links in the show

notes. We've talked about those in past episodes. So check it out. And we're going to segue really

right here into Jake Randa as we're talking about, you know, digital learning communities and metaverse

learning communities and seeing things differently. We're going to be hanging out with Jay, digital

pastor, online pastor, online campus pastor. What is your actual title, Jay? I feel like I ask you this

every time. Online community pastor. Online community pastor for Saddleback Church. That changed. It was

not online community before, was it? It changed like a couple of years ago, but it has changed many

times. But yes, I was about to say you've kind of adapted along the way. One of the, probably one of

the OGs of online ministry, Jay Cranda, and he's been on the podcast quite a few times. And if you've

ever heard the podcast before with Jay, who lives in South Southern California, Los Angeles,

specifically a Lakers fan, and you've ever listened to even some of the older podcasts with

Ray Diarmus and I, who are, you know, more Miami Heat fans, you've heard some, some, maybe some

conversations going back and forth about the greatness of the Lakers, how, you know, LeBron left

Miami to go to, to, to a greater land and things are going to be awesome. And LeBron's, the greatness

there is. And, um, you know, I just, I mean, we got a title, so I don't, I don't, are you setting up

for the title? So yes. I, I, but I'm just curious because, because, you know, the Miami Heat, they're,

they're, they're taking it to the, to the, uh, to the Celtics right now when we're doing this

recording, the podcast will play later. Yeah. We'll probably be in the finals when this, when this

cares. And, um, we're the Lakers again. I forget what, what, what's going on. Hey, Western conference

finals. We were terrible at the trade season deadline. Hey, I'll take it all day. We were

great. It was great. But yeah, no, I'm a Heat. I mean, the Heat are amazing. They're, they are

really Jimmy Buckets is, uh, is the man I was messaging with Ray about it. He messaged me. He said,

uh, he said something about something I posted on Instagram. He said, Hey Jay, you're killing

it. Like in, in, in this thing in ministry. And I replied, just like the nuggets killed

the Lakers this week. So just like the nuggets killed the Lakers is beautiful. And so is LeBron

going to retire? I mean, let's, let's get down to brass tacks. This is what the audience wants

to know. Is LeBron done? Yeah. You know, I listened to a couple of podcasts and, uh, that talk

about sports and I, and I always think that when they talk about sports, I'm always like,

I'm not listening in this for their sports take. And I get annoyed. So I'm imagining somebody

right now listening to this and going, just talk about ministry, please. Uh, no, he's not

retiring. He's not retired. LeBron is the master, uh, strategist. And so everybody bugs, you know,

like I always say this, like everybody says how they don't want their politicians or their

sports people or whoever to share their opinions. And then we all share our opinions about their

opinions. And so, uh, like everybody, he's just, he's, he's, he's the person of this age. He just,

he wants to control it all. And so just like we all control it. So he love it or hate it, but I love

it. I love LeBron. I love, uh, his, his planning. He's, he's so good at it. And so we got a title

out of it. So, Hey, if he can pressure the Lakers to try to make sure they act wisely over the summer,

I'm all game for it. It's not my team at the end of the day. So it could be a mess at any point.

Do they make the finals next year? Uh, probably not just based off of what, what they can do,

but, uh, I'm a lifelong Laker fan. So I I'm, I'm here for the, for the long journey. So I'm game for

it for you. All right. So that was the sports take on the church digital podcast here. Thank you

for, uh, humoring us. This is literally the only time I ever talk sports on the podcast. Honestly,

it's the only time I talk sports period. So I've got Jake. I know, I know this Jeff. I could say that

about you. I was like, I don't know why I could start asking about how the game is played. And I

feel like you would start to be, uh, you would triangle offense. I have not even watched. Oh,

I know that. I know what the triangle offenses, you know, the, you know, OG Laker. Come on.

I do. I appreciate, I've known how it's played, but I know it came out of Riley. So I know, I know the

history of it, but, um, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can honestly, that's the thing. Yeah. Riley Laker,

come on. You can't have me hate on the heat. You know, it's got, they got Riley. I'll, I'll,

all I, all I know is that I have not watched one NBA game this year. That's, that's, that's how much

sports I'm involved in right now. So thank you. Well, I will say practically, I will say just

transitioning to digital. One of the weird things about the NBA is the NBA is one of these most

talked about sports, but they're actually, their viewership is terrible. They've really,

they've really struggled with people actually watching games because most people, uh, tweet

about it. Uh, there's accounts like house of highlights on Instagram and tech talk. It's a

most young people experience it in clips because it's a very clickable kind of small moment type of

sport, but they deal with this thing. I did this blog post a couple of years ago and it's still true

where like, if you look at the social engagement of NBA, it's like the top it's over the NFL and all

this, but if you look at viewership, they really struggle because they have more games. And so it's

this really interesting digital thing where like, like, it's kind of like a church, a church can be

maybe constantly talked about, but people who actually show up to the room is very low. So

it's just really interesting, like dichotomy that they kind of wrestle with and they're trying to

drive more because people like me will watch games, but the average person, I mean, I try to watch a

full basketball game and it's hard because it's two and a half hours. It's a lot of timeouts. And so

it's kind of a lot of the church stuff. It's, it's, there is some parallels there.

Interesting. I, I, I've actually remember that YouTube video that back in the day,

you were paralleled to it was good. It's good. Some good stuff. Quality editing out of Jay Cranda.

Good stuff. Have you watched any of the NBA on the metaverse virtual reality?

I have. Yeah. What's, what's your take on that?

Uh, I mean the, it's really cool that you could sit court side and kind of watch these plays.

I mean, the, the biggest struggle is just the quality of the stream because it's not,

I mean, it's not a 10 ADP or anything because it's, there's so many, there's so much data in that point

of view, you know, they cap it at a, um, at a one 80 view essentially where you turn around and it's

dark. And so it's kind of this one. And so it's really weird because there's so much data in there

that, um, it's just pixelated. So it's cool. You can be at the side or you can be under the basket

and you can see it. It's very immersive, but at the end of the day, all this stuff comes down to

it feeling pixelated at moments. I mean, it's the difference why cartoon ish types of, of, of

experiences feel very crisp at any real life ones feel pixelated because the cartoons versions are

tend to be, you know, one color and they can kind of merge all together and it looks crisp. So I think

a lot of these experiences depends on the quality. It just, it comes, obviously our eyes are just

are so high or so advanced for obvious reasons that it's just, it's hard. So it's really cool,

but, um, I've watched like probably 20 minutes worth of a game in there and it's, I could definitely

feel why it's, it's something that like, this will be a very compelling experience, but it needs to get

to a, um, it needs to get to a, a quality that's compelling. Also, you know, it's for sure a better

experience if you watch playback versus live. Live is, is even more kind of janky. And so I've watched

one game live on, on my quest to at one point and it was just, yeah. So it's, you see, it's all, it's

like, uh, it's like using a Palm pilot or even like a Blackberry. You're like, I could see why this is

going to be great. Uh, but you know, it needs to be more, you know? And so I, I think, so I like it,

but it's definitely not to what it needs to be. Apple's, Apple's new headset. You're going to buy

it. Are you excited about what's coming out? I am probably not going to buy it, but, uh, we'll see.

I don't know. You can't make that a saddleback expense. I, I, I think I might have a hard time,

but we'll see what it is. I know they're speculating it's going to be 3k or something. So I don't

know. We'll see what the reality is. I mean, I didn't buy the quest pro. So, um, um, but yeah,

it's funny. I haven't turned, I actually just met with a guy who builds a VR worlds, uh, yesterday

of it goes to our church and I was confessing to him. I haven't put on my quest to in quite a while.

So he was trying to get me in cause he builds stuff. He builds a bunch of worlds in VR chat for

his business. And so, but I was, uh, I was like, Oh yeah, I need to, I need to, cause I was asking him

about like, how has, uh, Microsoft shutting down all space VR impact VR chat. And, um, you know,

of course he should throw shade at all space VR. So that's, that's how those people play.

Yeah. I mean, uh, not that I wanted to spend time on this, but all space VR is like, was,

was a non event compared to VR chat. All space VR had like, most people had built stuff in all space

VR, which was crazy. Like I never understood why churches, well, why, why they found it was

because it was safe. They trusted, you know, Microsoft. That's a hundred percent why. Yeah.

But I think, I think the thought is, well, Microsoft acquired them. It's going to have this future.

I think there's a lot of other things, but yeah, you're, you're right. It was the safe. I mean,

yeah, this guy, he's been in all, he's been in VR chat for a long time and he's been,

he's built many worlds. I hosted event through the church in one of his VR chat worlds and, um,

about a year ago, but he, uh, but yeah, he, he always cautions me as he always does this funny

thing as a pastor. He's like, okay, okay, pastor Jay, like, it's going to be like different. Like

you'll see stuff. Like he's like, it's like, I'm stepping into, you know, like the red district

at Amsterdam. That's what I call it, man. It's the red light district. 100%. Um, so I was like,

crack it up. Anyways, I know we totally talked to, we're supposed to talk about something else,

but it was funny. We're supposed to talk about experimenting within the church and we're

talking about, you know, what you're doing in the red light district of VR chat. So we actually

kind of set it up, set it up pretty well. Um, wow. So you're, you're, you're at a, you're

at a mega gig of church. Uh, you've got a new boss, by the way, let's talk about that.

How's, how's the, how's the new boss coming out? The new lead pastor. What's,

what's his name again? Woods. Andy. Andy. Andy. Andy. Andy Wood. Yeah. Andy Wood. Yeah.

How's that going? Andy Wood. It's going amazing, man. It's awesome. Yeah. I'm very grateful to be

able to be at the church in this, um, season. So it's, it's really fun to see. I mean, you really

don't get to, you don't really get the opportunity many times to be a part of a handoff. Like,

I feel like it's like this generational type of case study. And so, um, and so, uh, it has been,

I mean, I was very blessed to be at our church with our founding pastor and then to, you know,

for the last, you know, 13 years or whatever, and then to kind of go into this new season to have a,

you know, I, I'm just utterly amazed at both, uh, pastor Rick and by pastor Andy, how that,

how they've just navigated this. I mean, it's funny. People ask me different things and I'm just

like, I just, it's, I don't know how it could go smoother. Like in the sense of the, the actual,

like, I don't know. I talked to other friends and I see things that have happened at other

transitions. And I'm like, no, I mean, that's not, this is, this is really fun. Um, uh, yeah,

it's still the weird, the weird thing is to have a pastor, um, your lead pastor, uh, only,

you know, five years older than you or whatever is, is a really strange, uh, I'm not used to that

because I was used to pastor Rick, uh, who is, you know, a lot, you know, 30 years older than me

or whatever. Um, and so it's been really fun. So it's been fun. We are in a really fun season.

Uh, digital is very important with where we're going. And so, uh, so yeah, it's been, it's been

great. Very, very cool. Were there a lot of changes, uh, or organizationally when, uh, when

Andy came in, was it, was it like immediate urgency? Was, was it, Hey, we're gonna, we're

gonna observe and learn and then do changes. Like what's his, what's his leadership style in the

transition? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I mean, definitely a little bit of both of just, you know, getting the

lay of the land. Um, you know, I, I think I can't like there, there's a lot there where like, um,

I'm not a part of those conversations, but, uh, but yeah, there's been a lot of just assessing

and realignment of where we're going. And, uh, and it's been, it's, it's been a really nice,

I mean, yeah, they're so dialed in with, with how to do this, but it really is a great, I mean,

our church, you know, we are a giga church or whatever you want to call us, but it's, it's,

uh, it's, you know, when I talked to, when I talked to other, I was talking to somebody at

another church, actually a church in Florida and, uh, yesterday morning. Um, and you know,

they were talking about something about their org and they were, they were talking about struggling

with getting things done, you know, and I was in working in her department with different people

and their churches probably only have like five staff members, you know? And I'm like, well,

you know, from my perspective, that seems super easy. And I was trying to encourage them because,

you know, with a church with, you know, a couple hundred people on staff, a bunch of,

you know, it's getting stuff done here is it's complex. And, um, so I was trying to encourage

them, like, it could be more, it could be a lot harder. And, um, and so like, I can't even imagine,

I don't even get, um, how Andy, Pastor Andy, uh, navigates all the things like, uh, I've,

it just, it, there's so many moving pieces, but it's been very good in our season. So,

yeah. Very cool. All right. So let's, let's dig in here a little bit and, and, you know,

all this has been prelude. We've talked about how, uh, you know, metaverse and, and, you know,

I know you guys were exploring the metaverse and testing some things in, in VR, uh, doing some

groups. You talked about VR chat, which is interesting. Um, you're, you're looking at, um,

you know, some, a new season coming in with, with a new leader. And so some changes with that,

you know, uh, so often I've seen lately with, with churches that they really are,

especially post COVID now they've, they've lost that, that experimental edge. Uh, they're going

back to what's, what's comfortable. Well, what's, what's traditional. Like I'm not, I'm not saying

ostrich bearing the head and pretending it's February, 2020, but it, it feels like it's,

Hey, we're, we're wanting to play it safe. And, uh, the, the idea of experimenting and taking risks,

I don't know if it's economical or if it's just exhaustion, but, but there doesn't seem to be

that experimental edge. Like there was maybe within the past year or so. I don't know when you,

have you felt that, or have you talked to some churches that might be struggling with that?

Like what's your, what's your take on that?

Yeah, I think it's hard when, you know, there are things, you know, the classic is not everybody

in the org probably needs to be always experimenting, you know, their role kind of depending on their

volunteer role, staff role, whatever, you know, they might just have a task to be done.

So I think it can be really, it can be difficult at times to kind of understand, or how do you cast

vision, um, around, you know, not doing the same thing all the time, but also like, you know,

you don't necessarily want your food person always experimenting, you know? And so it's like,

or even like maybe your maintenance person to always be messing around with stuff. And so I think

churches, um, have a hard time navigating how to, how to communicate that to everybody. And then the

other thing is, is that coming out of COVID, I think there was just a lot of priorities to build

stuff back up and it can be hard to, you know, as you're kind of, you know, I would, I would think

of it kind of like, it's like different seasons of life where, you know, when you first have kids,

you're just trying to figure out how to sleep and how to eat and the rhythm and how to, you know,

it's like what they always say when you first have a, you know, have a kid, they usually tell you like,

after you, you leave the hospital and everything, just figure out, like go out all together,

like, and just learn how to like get back to normal life. And so sometimes I think in different

seasons, different things are a priority. And so coming out of COVID, I think it was just a priority

of getting the weekend back together. And I think for a lot of churches, they kind of probably just

leaned a little too heavy too long and to just making the weekend work. Um, again, uh, meaning

that, you know, one of the struggles in every part of the country in the world was impacted differently

around COVID and how that is, but a lot of churches, the weekend just isn't the same type of driver.

And it doesn't mean you can't become efficient at it and there isn't things to get, you know, dialed back in.

But I think it's also like, Hey, maybe the reality is that the weekend isn't the number one front door

anymore. Um, meaning your building, it doesn't mean the building's not important. Doesn't mean.

And so I think there's just that, like when urgency comes in, you kind of drift back to just trying to

keep things alive. And it's because the season of your church is, but I think long-term, um, you know,

it's, it's just, Hey, you gotta keep, you gotta keep that spirit of like entrepreneurship, you know,

it's, it's, it's, Hey, when do you get space? Uh, actually I was in a meeting yesterday and one of

our pastors said, he said, because we're in, and it was in, it was a good point because we're always kind of

driving towards the weekend, at least in this season where he's like, we never get a moment to kind of

back up and look at what's working and not. And so it's like, I, I was, uh, I was just reading a, uh, this book

about, um, it was about your life and rhythm. And it was, uh, it's just about rhythms in life. And one of the

thoughts was in your own weekly time, how many, how much do you allocate any time in your week or your

month to do deep thinking? And so like, uh, I do this a lot with, with my team where there, I have

a couple of younger people on my team and you know, they're, they started very idealistic and kind of

like, I'm going to do everything. And then they got to the point where like, Oh wow, I can't do

everything. I got to like prioritize stuff. And I said, yeah, I go, one of the things you got to figure

out is in your week scheduled, deep thinking time to kind of evaluate everything you're doing. So

like, I think churches, they're just so focused on the weekend and just making that work again and,

you know, pay the bills and get all that, all the hard work that kind of COVID kind of disrupted.

I think though, we forget that, you know, maybe we're investing too much energy on something that's

not delivering the same results, or maybe we need to allocate this or that. So it can be hard. I mean,

even Google, for example, Google was the famous, like 10% of your time to test. And then, you know,

at the same time they wasted billions of dollars. I mean, that's why this, the founders had to like

step down because they were wasting too much time on random projects of like, you know, all sorts of

stuff. I mean, this was the, the famous, uh, autopilot program. I'm forgetting what it is. It's not,

um, I'm forgetting it's, it's the, anyways, they, they wasted like a billion dollars because they were

doing too much testing on the side. And so it's like, there, there is this balance, but I totally

get why churches drift away from it. That's, that's good. Um, man, that was a lot there,

Jay. You just were, we're, we're packing it in the it's, it's interesting. Have you met Jay? Uh,

have you met, um, Tyler Sansom? Have I connected you to, uh, but before and, and, uh, you know,

he's, he's doing the learning community with us and, and it's interesting, like you said early on,

it was, Hey, you know, the Sunday morning, isn't the, um, isn't the front door that it used to be

or whatever the vernacular that it was around that. Uh, and I'm actually curious and the learning

community, the reason I'm asking is learning community we're doing is with Tyler. Tyler's

actually co-leading it with me. He is, um, we're, we're talking about how, you know, moving beyond

the weekend and the weekend plays a part, but it's not, uh, the behemoth that it once was. What,

what does that look like for, for Saddleback? Um, not, does, does Saddleback at the place? I know

it's a giga. You guys have massive buildings. Um, what is, what is a, a non weekend or a lesser

emphasis weekend, uh, look like?

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that. So I, I'm more saying it from the perspective of

it's like, for example, for us as a church and every church would, would have probably a little

bit of a different feeling, um, around this, but, um, and, and your, your time and place in history

and where you're at, you know, your geography all determine some of these answers. Um, but for us,

it, it, it wouldn't be so much that we obviously stop the weekend or even don't prioritize it. Um,

I think for us, it probably just means understanding the on ramps or entry points that a new person

might come in. So maybe pre this type of strategy, we might go, well, everybody just comes to the

weekend and then from the weekend, they fill out a connection card and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I think for us, um, uh, pastor Rick said this years ago, he talked about the idea of

a side doors are going to be kind of the future of the American church. Um, people aren't, and, and he

was alluding to, you know, the empty buildings in Europe, the empty church cathedrals that are

beautiful, that are empty and how, um, you know, most people are coming to Jesus, not through coming

through a worship service. Um, they're coming through a small group or a relational outreach

or some kind of connection. And I think it's, we've benefited off of this populist type of

Christianity in America. Um, the last, you know, a hundred years, really, I mean, it's from our

founding, but, you know, really over the last evangelical type of movement in the U S has been

super strong since the, since the 1900s. And so, um, you kind of, if you think about it that way,

it's just like small groups, outreach opportunities. And, you know, the lean is going to be, it's going

to be too decentralized. It's going to, it's going to get too loosey goosey. Cause you're not going to

really know what it means. It's like salvation army. It's like, what does it actually mean? You know,

their outreach is super powerful, but their church is super weak. I'm generalizing, but, you know,

if you talk to most people in salvation army, that's kind of what has happened. And then,

then you just have food banks, you know, long-term they just become, you know, a church starts doing

a food bank outreach to reach and build relationships in long-term all the faith kind of gets strained

from it. Potentially. It's kind of what's happened with a lot of the universities on the East coast.

And so I think, um, I think it's just side doors. And I still think, I mean, every, I, I would argue

with most people about this. I, I have that. I don't think the future of the American church

is the way of Europe necessarily. I just don't. Um, I, I think it's possible. Um, but I think,

I think there's a lot of tells in our culture that people are very upset about where we're going.

And, um, and I think it doesn't mean that the future of the, of the American,

American culture is Christian. I just think that there's probably a future where the American church

is not persecuted that way. I think it's going to be, I think there's still a chance. Um, I think

Christians really love the nuclear theology. We, cause we, we kind of read the end of the,

the book of revelations. We go, well, this is where we're going. And I would say, yeah,

but that could happen in a million years. Um, so I mean, I think, yeah. So I, I, I just,

I think it's just like more outreach, um, more doing ministry on people's terms,

obviously more digital type of things where people start digital. It just means the building is,

is going to become a more core strategy than a outreach strategy potentially. Now I don't know

what that means fully for our church, because we're still in the, you know, you know, our church is

doing a lot of them. Like our buildings are, you know, we've experienced a lot of growth this last

year. I mean, there's a lot of stuff there that is still happening for us. And that's why I kind of go,

I don't think that season is fully done, but, um, but yeah, it's going to be curious. And digital

obviously is a big part of that. Um, I don't know if churches know what that means, but it's,

it's definitely going to be a big part of it. Yeah. Let's, let's unpack core strategy.

Uh, you said, so it's, it's not going to be, um, the evangelism strategy or the front door strategy,

but it's core. What do you, what do you mean by that?

Um, so I, I, I, I, I'm just alluding to that. Um, you know, particularly on the idea that,

you know, maybe if you look at your, your budget and your time, you know, your talent treasures,

you know, type of layout that you might allocate percentage less around the weekend, for example,

at some point in the future. And so like, um, again, this has already happened. And if you talk

to anybody in the middle East, they don't, they don't, they do the weekend, but they're doing a

lot more of a lot of churches are doing a lot more resourcing around, um, outreach opportunities on

digital. Um, uh, they're doing a lot more Bible study focus because, um, you know, every country is

different, but a lot of countries you can publicly, um, worship, but you can't publicly convert.

And so if you're born into a Muslim family, you, you can't convert, but if you're born into a

Christian family, um, you're, you're allowed to go to church, you know, and a lot of those countries

are trying to kind of genetically force the Christian community to die essentially. So it's like,

we're not, we're going to allow you to worship or we're going to tell other countries you can worship

so that we don't get in trouble. But what we're saying is you're, after your family dies, no one's

really going to be, it's, it's kind of like siloed off into how many kids you can have within your own

community. And so, um, I think those are signs like you don't, again, you don't go, I don't go into a

country like, um, Saudi Arabia or something and go, oh, I'm going to just check out church on Sunday.

Like that's, but I know the church is still thriving there and it's thriving around digital

platforms. It's thriving around Bible study. So I think that's the sign is like, if you, now that's

an extremist view of the future, you know, it's like a, it's, it's super extreme, you know, but it's,

it's, you look at that and you go, what if that happens in the next 30 years, you know, and you kind

of go, yeah, they're probably, you're probably not going to be 50% of your budget or 30% of your

budget's allocated to the weekend. It might be towards a small group strategy or a discipleship

strategy. I mean, I was talking to a, uh, uh, a guy, uh, actually not too far away from you, um,

uh, about small circle. Um, that's on, it's in, uh, he has a ministry where he does discipleship

through an app. It's a really powerful thing. And I could totally see more churches having a pastor

that has this mentorship app that you encourage people anywhere to do these one-on-one relationships.

So yeah, it, the, what it looks like could be a variance, but I think it just, if you look around

the world and if you look around history, like this is already played out, unfortunately, doesn't mean

it's our history, but I think if you forecast it, you can see a possible timeline where that happens.

Yeah. I want, I want to come back to the global church. I want to ask some, some questions centered

around that, but even like the idea of, of the discipleship and the mobile app and some of the

things, um, how do you experiment towards some of those things or what, what steps would you recommend

experimenting with within the physical church? You know, uh, just in my context, digital church

network, I see a lot of experimenting. I see a lot of, of, of leaning in and new ideas, but really it's,

it's new church plants. It's, um, individuals that, that don't have, uh, baggage and sometimes a lack

of vision and there's, there's less, uh, well baggage to kind of work through. And so, you know, you,

in, in your context, you've, you've been able historically to have a lot more freedom to explore ideas,

um, and to experiment and saddle back, saddle back. But how would a, how would a normal church even

start to wrestle with the idea of, of experimenting and trying to do something different?

Yeah, I, I would, I just told one of our campus pastors this, that, you know, my job title was

definitely less defined than anybody. And so I think I've been able to have a lot of, um, um, momentum or

be, I've been able to influence my part of the strategy, at least a lot more, um, because I have

a lot more autonomy, um, because it's, it's less defined. So the more defined a role is, I think

the, you know, less opportunities to kind of experiment.

And so like a classic example would be like an HR department for a church or like, you know, whoever

manages accounting, you know, they're experimenting might be just around what software technology

you use and, you know, convert it. So it's like, it's very, it's, you know, I have like a ton of

opportunity because there's no real, there's no, at least when I started, there was nothing really

written. And, and most of the stuff that's written is very conceptual. It's not like a playbook as some

of these other things. So I think first off your role kind of determines how much experimenting you

get to do. Um, and so I think there's that, um, yeah, I, I would say, you know, one of the things

that I have really harped on myself, like, and I would encourage any pastor, um, in any church,

one of the kind of the mantras that I kind of repeat is that our job is not to get people in a

room. Our job is to produce fruit or outcome, uh, an outcome. And so the thought is, is that the room

experience is still valuable. And, you know, again, um, I would argue with anybody, even in the digital

space, um, people get married and even in the online space, they get married and they connect

physically. And until that experience changes, we'll really talk about full digital church and

that sense. I mean, there's a reason why you get married and then you move in together. And so I

think we're, we're pretty far away away from that fully experienced, like replacing that. And I would

even argue, even if that is, it will be kind of a fringe thing probably. Um, you know, potentially

even in a hundred years from now, but the, the thought is, is there are, you know, the challenge

would be for any church, any ministry really would be your job isn't to get people in a room. Your job

is to produce something in their lives. So for example, like if you want to, um, if your job is

to be over the parent ministry at your church, your job isn't to put on a parent event or create parent

resources, your job is to encourage your members and attenders in the area of parenting. So the deliverable

could be a, an event you put on or the deliverable could be a digital resource. And so exactly for, you

know, it could be, well, we do this event once a year, or we create a podcast where parents can listen

on the go. And so I think it's just this encouragement is what are you trying to do in your role and how can

digital aid that and practically what it means usually in experimenting. I would say, I think a

digital is very important track of where we're going and where we are now that I would say, just

look at your next year and whatever you're doing, integrate one digital offering in your rhythm. And

so like, for example, my church does, uh, we do discover your purpose. It was formal, formally called

class at our church. And, um, all of our campuses do this monthly in person. I might go to a campus and

go, Hey, I think you doing that in person in your yearly rhythm is really important. What if you

experiment twice a year doing that on zoom? And so it's not replacing it, but it's just introducing

one small integration of digital to see, cause you probably have people at your campus that can't

come to the room. They might actually engage in a zoom better there. Um, there's probably people

that are engaging you online that coming to the room is hard. Maybe the first step is this. And so I

think it's, Hey, think about your, your role isn't to get people in a room and tell them to do

something. Your goal is to produce fruit in your lives. How can digital, or how can you innovate

to do that better? And sometimes you just need the 30,000 square foot view to kind of back up and

just be like, Oh, it's kind of like what memorials do. You know, like you're, you're busy, you're busy,

you're busy. You go to a funeral or memorial and you're like, Oh, well, I need to like hug my kids.

I need to go on vacation with my wife. It just resets you. It resets you. It's important. And I think a

lot of times churches just don't reset on what they're doing or what their job is. And so I think I would

first go, what are you trying to produce? It's not the room is a option. It's not the option it might

be still, and then introduce some small experimenting in your yearly flow just to see, because the key

here I found is that iteration is how you get clarity. And so you don't go, you know, again,

the classic example of this is everybody. It's like when PayPal and eBay launched and they're like,

I'm not going to put my credit card online. And everybody was like the, the, the arrogant prideful

part of people went, I'm never going to put my credit card online. Well, the thought was they weren't

going to put the credit card online in that version of the internet. And you flash forward 10 years and

you're like, we all have our credit card online. And the thought is because we think it's not going to

evolve and it does. And so it's like, it's like the people go, I'm never going to use a VR headset.

And you're like, okay, we've been here before. Like, I'm not saying in this current set, you're going to

be like, you know, cartoonish, you know, jumping around with no legs. You know what I mean? But in 10

years, if this is completely different and your work bought it for you and you're working with people

in a virtual space, you probably will. And I'm not going to show my receipts, but it's, it's gonna

like it. And so I think it's just like, let's iterate. And so it's confusing and foggy and you

don't need to know it all. You just take one step. And so that would be my encouragement is like,

how do you ingrate digital? Like, just do one thing in this next six months. And trust me,

you do that one thing you'll learn. And then you'll, and so just, so that that's part of my is

like, what's the fruit you're trying to do? And then just do one small thing. You don't got to like

completely do it all. Just do one small thing. Trust me, I've benefited. And I know Jeff, you have

too. I've benefited through 15 years of doing a bunch of small digital things. And I have clarity.

I, it doesn't mean I have complete clarity of where we're going, but I definitely have

some clarity. So, and I can navigate the future a little bit better because of that.

Yeah. One, one of the things, and actually I, I'm not, I was gonna say, actually, I would love your

take on this. I would love your take anyway. Like this isn't, that's not, that's a very rude thing

to say. Actually, I'm really interested in how you would answer this question. I've seen in a lot

of mega and giga churches, churches your size, you know, maybe a little smaller, even

the expectation of perfection and such a high standard that really prevents an experiment

from happening. A fear of failure, the unacceptance of failure prevents the idea of actually exploring

and trying something different because the idea is we can barely handle perfection with what we are

doing much less trying something different. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, it's, what's the old Aaron

Sorkin TV show studio 60 something on the sunset strip where they always, you would always have

that like countdown. I don't know if you've ever watched that TV show, but they had a countdown

clock. It would roll 167 hours and would always count down to the next time that they did whatever

the TV show they were doing. It's like a Saturday night live spoof, but there was so much fear

that was built into the next Sunday. There was so much expectation and so much urgency that's onto that

and the perfection of that, that they really never had the opportunity to experiment. And, and, and I've,

I've seen, I've seen that in real time with churches because there's so much expectation. There's so much

demand, uh, towards that because there's this, this perception of, of excellence or this desire for

excellence. Is that how do you, do you combat that? Do you see that? Do you relate to that? Like, talk to me a

little bit about excellence.

Um, I mean, I, I mean, there's a spectrum. I think first I would go to like, I think from top down leadership

from the lead pastor to the elders, whoever, are they providing that space? Um, and that, that value of, um,

you know, our, our, our culture for a long time was try anything one time, but don't try it twice.

Um, and meaning like learn from it, fail forward, you know, type of concept. So I think

the leader casts that vision and that space to make that happen. So it's not about knowing,

you know, um, it's, you know, the, you know, the idea is like with Twitter, like Twitter and

like you can tweet and you can have stuff misspelled and there's a lot of forgiveness,

but there's a difference when it goes to print. And so I think the different, it's just knowing

what you're trying to do. So I think leadership creating that culture is really important. I've

benefited from being part of a lot of cultures where that has been, um, kind of casted, uh,

figured out. I also think that there's a lot of, um, um, I don't know how to say it. Like I noticed,

especially when I'm talking to people on other people wanting to do digital things in their church

and they tend to be younger. Um, there's a lot of arrogance around that they should just listen to

you. Um, and it's generally, it's the, uh, you haven't done anything to be listened to yet type of

thought was where I would go. Um, and I've, I've struggled with this definitely, but I, I, you know,

I've benefited long-term to become more, um, to, you know, it's, it's the Columbo ask more questions.

Don't lead with, this is my idea. And, um, and, and then also pick your strategic times to lean

in. Um, and so I think I've learned that if I can, it's the idea with money, you know, if I can be a

good steward with a little, God will give me more and I'd be a good steward with what I have. So for

example, like people will go, um, it, you know, uh, a question that I've been asked in the past is

like, I've, I've, I've done some help. I've done some consulting outside of my, my own org. And people

will ask me like, Jay, how, how do you do your job and you do this other stuff? And, and I, and I don't

do a lot of it, but, but I said, well, do your job. Well, if you do your job, well, they won't

question if you're doing something else. So if you are bad at your job and then you start doing

something else, they're going to see it as a time thing. And so I think it's a, it's a tension there

where you gotta, you gotta know, can you do this in this season? And so I think, um, trust me,

I've had many times where I've been corrected and I've been, you know, I've, I've said the wrong

thing and I've learned through that. And I've been grateful to have amazing bosses that have told me

like, um, I, I still remember one of the things early on, um, in my role, uh, one of my, one of my

bosses, one of my mentors who said, Jay, sometimes when you talk, you say I too much, like I did this

or something. And I was young and, and, uh, I was, you know, I had to wrestle through, well,

like, well, maybe it was me or, you know, like I had to like get, and I think, but I heard that from

my leadership of like, that's, and they weren't saying it like I was a terrible person. They were

just giving me feedback and I heard that and I listened. And so, um, and then also just understanding

too, like a lot of times you don't have all the data, like as a young leader, like that's a huge

thing. Like, like I think about, I could think about all these things I want my church to do, but I,

I don't know what our budget is. I don't know where we're at. Like, there's so much I don't know.

And I think the more you as a leader under like more come to the place of like knowing that you

don't know it all and, and ask more questions in the process. So like, I might think that this is

better than whatever my pastor is doing, but I have to go. I don't, I don't know it all.

I mean, I literally don't know it all. And then second, instead of going, you're wrong,

just ask the question. And then I've found, um, long-term as I'm consistent in my own faith of

God, I'm consistent doing my own stuff. I've benefited long-term from like just being at,

and then good steward with what you're given just long-term you're given more, uh, might not be as

much as, you know, somebody wants or whatever. But I think it's just that it comes from the,

so first it's top-down vision of like creating that culture where people can experiment.

And then I think a lot of like, you just gotta, um, you gotta know your line. Now I would joke,

everybody, I joke a lot with other people that, you know, friends who have new jobs and do new things

and they, and I find out about it. I joke back, I go, I'm just boring. I'm still at my church.

You know, um, I'm definitely a guy who is very, uh, consistent in that area. So I know I might be

the extreme and you could, doesn't mean people have to be that. I, I, I have amazing friends that

are doing amazing things and they've been at 10 different orgs in the last 10 years. And that's

totally okay too. It, but I think if you're really thinking about, if I'm thinking, if I'm talking

to a young dude or, or a woman who's pastoring at a church and you want to, you want to move it

forward, I would just say, uh, trust your leadership, ask a lot of questions, be a good

steward with what you got. And I've found that, you know, generally long-term, trust me, I've had

seasons where I haven't felt that, but I've, I've been on the, I'm on the other end of it where like,

I'm, I'm now in a season where I'm, I feel the pressure that I got to deliver, not the worry

that I'm being ignored. And, uh, and so, uh, but you know, that's my, that's been, that would be my

journey on it, especially as somebody who's been at the same church for, you know, almost 15 years.

So that, that would be my perspective. Beautiful. And let's, let, let's flip the script. And just

even as we're wrapping up the show here, um, you're a leader, longstanding leader, an older leader at a

church, and you got a whippersnapper who's talking crazy ideas and saying, I too much, and, uh,

trying to bring about what you're perceiving as aggressive change, digital or not, doesn't matter

in this context. Um, how, how, how do you respond? What, what's the wise way in 2023 to respond in

situations like that? To, to the young leader. To the young leader. Yeah. I think, I think that

there's a perspective that I've gravitated towards. Um, I, I always use, I use the example of like,

I remember when I came to faith in high school that, um, I really struggled that my brothers

didn't know Jesus. Um, and I remember I did everything. I, I was doing everything that I

could to kind of convert, but I was their older brother and, you know, um, and they kind of knew

punk J, um, and they knew all my imperfections. And so one of my youth pastors at this time said

something to me that was very profound. And I still remember to this day that, you know,

you know how you love your brothers so much. And yeah, yeah, I do. He's like, do you know that God

loves them more? And don't you think God's going to do everything in his power to make sure that if

they can know him they're, that they're going to know him? And I was like, that's true. I, I, I believe

you. And so, and he was, he's like, you, you do what you need to do, like be faithful with what you

have, be a good steward, but trust God. And so I would say on the other end to a young leader,

the perspective is, is God cares more about your church and more about your community than you.

And so you have tons of dreams and that's that fiery spirit is there for a reason,

but trust God's timing in it. And I mean, you would go through the history books of all the

different leaders that had to wait their time. I mean, I, I mean, you think about some of the

conversations we're having now, even we've had the last couple of years about race. And you think

about the things that somebody like Martin Luther King didn't get to experience, like wouldn't have

been fair for him to experience the blessing of all the things. I mean, the, the types of things we're

talking now are still hard, but it's very different than what it was in the civil rights era. And, um,

and so I, you know, it's, he didn't get to experience Barack Obama and all these, like these things,

like, and so in one angle, it might, you might go, man, that's really crappy for Martin Luther King,

which I guess it is, it was, uh, but it, I think on the flip, it's, he played his role in moving

our country forward. And so I would say, get a more eternal perspective on your role in helping

your church go forward. Like, don't get so wrapped up in, you know, I think of it as like the Jeremiah

example where Jeremiah, um, didn't get to experience the blessings of all the things he was talking

about. And he's the one that had the famous verse, like, I have wonderful plans for you. And he most

likely lived the rest of his life in captivity, not knowing anybody who actually really listened

to him. And so I think it's easy what, what we're saying in like digital change, what we are, what

we're actually saying is we want to be there when it all happens. And I think that's okay to ask that

and desire that, but just understand sometimes God's plan doesn't involve us ever knowing what actually

happened. And so I think just come from eternal perspective. I've found generally that, you know,

because of our, especially in the U S I think there's a lot more you can do. It might take more

relational investment, but, um, it's, it's the classic example. And this would be my, my, my hard

conversation with a leader is if you're so focused on telling people how smart you are, uh,

you, you've, you've, you've already failed, like allow your reputation to prove who you are.

So if you have to tell people you're smart, then maybe you are smart, but nobody really cares.

Nobody really wants to listen to you. But if you just do the work and prove your concept, it's,

it's like our faith. Like we got to live out what we read every day in the Bible. And it's,

it's our reputation. It's our testimony. So have a testimony in your digital,

like just solve it. You know, like I'm not a, I'm typically not a good, uh, uh, I tend to not be

a good person to complain to things about. Cause I'm like, then solve it, you know? And then I would

say all the time, well, like, you know, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard. You know, if, if it was easy and AI

bot would have already replaced you, like, you know, like, like it's, so I think it's like, figure it out,

do the long work, you know, it's the same thing. It's like, it's all this stuff. Like we got to figure

out, we, we got to lean in. So I would say, get an eternal perspective and then do the hard work.

And, um, and, and you listen to podcasts like this, get perspective. We all, we all need like

an injection of encouragement. Trust me. I've had many, many of those, you know, Jeff, Jeff,

you and I have done this. We've talked about different frustrations so many times. And, and

we use that to kind of, and this is why you created this podcast to help people along the journey.

So I would just say, come from a eternal perspective, kind of, I would like, probably,

you know, uh, you know, slap you on the face a little bit and say like, keep going, you know,

and then you might point at people in the Bible and go, I mean, are we really, is it harder than

that? No. And so like, we can do this and then just live it out, you know, execute your vision

and controlled things that you can influence. And trust me, if you, if they see momentum,

it can kind of, it will, it will expand. It might not expand in your timeline, but you know,

God's timeline tends to be a little longer usually.

Yeah. Well, it was, it was Peter that was crucified upside down, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So Peter, Peter's crucified upside down. I think, I think you can handle like some,

somebody not agreeing with you in the workplace. So that, that's, that was, that was well said

right there. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, we're, we're 275 episodes into encouraging people on,

on their innovative, innovative journeys. So been lots of conversations and encouragement,

uh, along the way with that. And, you know, maybe I actually need to go back and count maybe,

maybe half a dozen or more with you, man, you've been, you've been regular on this as well. And so I

want to thank you for, for your encouragement, even at my level for, for encouraging me on that we've

been, you know, working on projects and things, even outside of, of, of the podcast relationship here.

And, and, and what you're doing at Saddleback. And it's, it's always, I'm always encouraged when

I'm hanging out with my friend Jay Cranda and, uh, especially when the heater, uh, up and it's

at least more encouraged in that season. You can listen to the first three minutes if you skipped over

that to understand why, but, uh, Hey, we're going to land a plane. Jay, this has been, it's always

great hanging out with you, man. And, um, I will, I'll have to come out to, to SoCal and, and for some

reason, make an excuse to fly out and come hang out with you again. But, uh, but we're going to wrap it.

And so for Jay, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. Thanks for

jumping on the podcast here. See you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.