EP277 - Dr Dan Tebo, and a Dissertation on Digital Church

Welcome to the church digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper

questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission

field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church,

an established church, or a startup church plant, the church digital's goal is to help churches like

yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart? The churches like yours

would discover a new founded focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right, episode 277 of the church digital podcast. Once

again, this is Jeff Reed, founder of the church digital. Jumping in this conversation, I love

this conversation. It's very exciting for me to bring into the conversation. Doctor, I said doctor,

Dr. Dan Tebow. Now, some of you may remember, and Dan's no stranger to the church digital and formerly

digital church network. But Dan is a, well, he is a man of many talents. But one of the things that he

does is he recently started a digital church called Servant Warriors, where he, well, I'll let him tell you

about his church here in a little bit. But I said doctor, Dr. Dan Tebow. To my knowledge, and maybe

I learned in the podcast, maybe I'm not wrong. I got a fact, I'm wrong. I got a fact find here and

really dig into it before I say it officially. But Dan's got a doctorate with an emphasis in digital

digital discipleship. Literally, he wrote a 150-page dissertation on digital discipleship. And I read

this thing. And first off, I'm all over this thing. Thank you, Dan, for the credit. But beyond that,

I'm also really excited because I'm starting to see other people pick up this idea of the strengths and

the opportunities that are available for digital discipleship, for discipling people in digital spaces,

and why digital churches and even fidgetal churches, physical churches need to address this idea of

digital discipleship and do it, wait for it, fidgetally. Thank you, Stadia. So it is important

for us as a church to better understand discipleship, which means, hey, maybe y'all need to download a

150-page academia report from our show notes that Dan Tebow, excuse me, Dr. Dan Tebow wrote on it. Well,

you know what, you can download it from the show notes if you want, or you can listen to the podcast

here where we've got Dr. Dan Tebow unpacking his approach for digital discipleship. So here's where

we got for the podcast. I've got myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, and I've got Dan Tebow of

Servant Warriors tackling the idea of a dissertation on digital discipleship. Okay, everybody,

here you go. All right, I am really excited about this conversation. It's not that often we get

doctors in the house, especially like in digital ministry. And we're going old school here bringing

back a friend, Dr. Dan Tebow of Liberty University grad coming in to this conversation. Dan, doctor,

how do I refer to you right now? Like, what is the respectful reference that I should,

like, how do I give you the homage, the awe that you deserve? Like, what do I need to do in this

moment? Well, if you want to be official, it is doctor, but Dan works just fine. I'll give you all

kinds of nicknames my parents give me and everybody else, right? No, it's just, it's an honor to be here,

Jeff. You know, I think that we talked the first time probably two years ago. I was in the middle

of my MDiv, you know, pursuing that. And it rolled into what I didn't know at the time would become a

PhD program. So here we are. Yeah, I love that. So we had Dan on a podcast. We'll put a link in the

show notes. I can't remember the number right now. You did 275 of these and they all kind of run

together. But we had Dan on with Stephen Lowe talking about some of the program that Liberty was

developing, uh, for its, um, and it was a master's MDiv. You were, you were working on your MDiv at

the time, I think, Dan, uh, when you're working with Dr. Lowe and that evolved into, uh, uh, a PhD now a

doctorate level and, and Dan's, um, graduate. And so Dan's got a, a PhD, um, in what, what is the actual

PhD in out of, out of Liberty? Yep. So the, the actual degree will actually read PhD

in Christian leadership, but the key piece that makes it fun for us is underneath that the focus

is digital discipleship. And rumor has it, I may be one of the first or if not the first to actually

earn that from Liberty. So it's, it's been really cool to, uh, ride that, that development. And honestly,

a lot of that came through, uh, Dr. Steve and Mary Lowe, uh, both husband and wife, uh, professor

combo there at Liberty that had a passion for digital ministry. And they saw the need to put

that into the academia setting and they started what, uh, originated as the MDiv cognate for,

uh, church ministry in the digital age. And so that's what my MDiv was focused on. And those

courses actually carried over into the Christian leadership PhD program where it's, you know,

subtitled digital discipleship. So that's, that's been my, my focus for, I guess, four years total

through, through seminary at Liberty university. So it's, uh, it's been fun. It's been a lot of fun.

There's been a lot of, been a lot of rocks turned over and a lot of things looked at and, uh, uh,

we'll get into all that. It's going to be good.

Totally. And, uh, to, to be, I mean, on my side, Dan, I, I don't, I'm, I'm, this is not like an

official statement, but I don't know of anyone. I have not had a conversation with anyone from any school

that has a doctorate level with an emphasis in, uh, digital ministry. Like that is there. I'm not

saying that's official, but if, if you are, if you know someone, I'd love to meet them too. But,

but as of right now, dude, you may be the first person, uh, to, to walk away with this sort of

emphasis, like this, this is, this is really, and hats off, you know, Lowe's, the, the Lowe's are,

are, are friends. Uh, and, and, you know, I probably speak at Liberty two or three times a

year, uh, you know, online for, for his classes and she's curriculum and things. And, and so like,

it's, it's, it's very, uh, you know, hats off to them for the vision, uh, and, and the, the books,

the resources that they're creating, it's, it's phenomenal stuff. And speaking of like practical

books. Yes. Yeah. Now groundbreaking is the 150 page dissertation I read a little while ago,

uh, authored by Dr. Dan Tebow on digital discipleship. And, and really, so what, what I

wanted to do is, is really start to, to unpack, um, that cause there is so much in, on digital

discipleship, 150 page on digital discipleship. I think my, my book on virtual reality, I think

that was like, um, I think that was 150 pages, but that was like five by eight size pages with

like triple space with major, uh, margins on the side. You're, you're just like 150 page

academia, man. This is, it's a solid meat stuff. We'll get into that here in a second. Let

me slow down. Um, catch us up. Cause I know like you're a man, you're U S marshals. You

recently have launched it launched the church. Like tell us a little bit here. What's going

on in other than Dr. Dan Tebow, what's going on in your life, man, brother. So it's, it's

a, it's a good life. I always joke with Steve and Mary that I'm the unicorn. Um, you know,

I, I am, as you said, I'm a deputy U S marshal. Um, I'm coming up on this June. It'll be 15

years in federal law enforcement. Uh, I was the air force special agent before that, uh,

before I came to the marshal service. Um, but I've been in the marshals now for, uh,

let me do a quick math, seven years, uh, just over seven years with the marshals. And, uh,

the past three and a half years of that, I've been a team lead for one of our fugitive task

forces here where I reside. So, um, you know, I, I get to, I joked with an individual today

at a house this morning. I said, yeah, I get to play hide and seek for a living. So, I mean,

granted it's a dangerous version of the game, but, uh, you know, I, I get to go out there and,

and hopefully, hopefully keep folks safe. And, uh, and I tell folks all the time, what's unique

about being a Christian in law enforcement is I have the ability, uh, to go through and get these folks

hopefully into an area where they can more clearly hear the voice of God. So it's, it's really good to

be able to make an impact to the community that way. Um, and that's why I love doing what I do on

that side of things, but that side aside, uh, the past four years, you know, I've been going through

seminary, um, definitely felt the Lord put that in my heart and, uh, and it's come to fruition.

And with that, I know that, you know, graduation is just the start really, um, it's just the start

of everything. And I actually found myself, uh, early this year, January of 2023, uh, ordained

through the international ministerial fellowship. Uh, I was looking at potentially going back into the

air force reserves as a chaplain. Um, but, uh, God made it very clear that that's not where I need

you. I need you to shift focus. And, uh, and I'm trying to use that on the law enforcement side.

Um, but with that digital ministry and all that comes with that, um, I was able to go through and

work with a couple of brothers in Christ and found a digital church, uh, called servant warrior church.

And we meet online and we can flush that out here in a while if you want, but, um, there's just

different things that I've learned over this walk that are really kind of playing into it.

And I'm seeing God move and the Holy spirit transcends space and time in ways that we don't

see in a brick and mortar church. So it's, it's been a lot of fun. Um, but that's, you know,

so if I break it all down, law enforcement, family, man, student, now alumni, and, uh, and then

also a digital pastor. So it's that, that part's the mind blowing part for me. So, but that's,

that's it in a nutshell. That's Dan. You, uh, you may consider yourself a unicorn, but there's

a lot more unicorn coming behind you. The, the movement of people that are doing ministry that,

that, that primarily are not part of, uh, church staffs, uh, that are work that are blending

their workplace and with their ministry, uh, co-vocational, bi-vocational mindsets. Um,

yeah, this is, this is the new future. Um, not saying that the current model is going

away, the physical buildings, you know, and all that we'll get into digital. I know. Um,

but, uh, like that's not going to change. Um, that's not going to stop. I should say it

that way, but the idea of doing ministry different, um, Dan here is a perfect example of, of what

the, the new paradigm of what a new model is, is going to look like. And so it's one of the

reasons I want one to feature him and, and, and get into it. Cause there's some things I'm

going to, I'll just, I'll just be honest here, Dan. Um, like as I read this, uh, as

I read this dissertation, um,

Did you stay awake the entire time you read it?

I know. Well, Dan, that's the thing. Like, I felt like this was my words. I felt like,

like if I were to write a hundred,

Well, I quoted you quite a bit, brother.

Quite. And you know, I don't even think you realize how much you quoted me because like

all the, all the hat credit to stadia church planting was, was me. Like that was an

uncredited writing for, for me. And so stay, I wrote several eBooks for a stadia church planting

on planting digital and digital and that stuff. And, and so like, I'm, I'm freaking all over

this thing, which was, you know, a, I'm honored B I'm flattered. But, um, you're the mindset

I've, I've always felt this and it will, we'll, we'll get sappy up front. You know, every,

every couple of months I get a text from, from Dan Tebow and, um, dude was always like two

or three months behind some of the stuff that I was working on. Like, I remember Dan talking

to me about like a, a network for individuals that would create and champion this digital

discipleship, uh, towards starting and planting digital churches. And literally my response

to him was, you know, keep watching my social media. We're launching it in two months. Um,

like he just was always, you know, right there at the fringe, always asking really good questions,

always digging in. And so when I'm, when I'm reading this work, like it wasn't, you know,

boring, put me to sleep. I was like, my gosh, he is eloquently painted this picture of what it is

actually going through in this. Like, I'm looking at this, like, how do, how do we get this out of

academia terms and into a, into a book form where others can start to process and understand,

you know, outside of the, the academia space. And so we'll, I actually, I don't even know if I can

do this. We can put a link in the show notes where people can download the, the, the dissertation,

right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yep. It's available in, uh, in Liberty's Scholars Crossing, um, ProQuest,

which is another academic research area. It actually might've made its way into Google Scholar.

Um, so it's, it's out there. I mean, you can always email me and I'll, I'll send a copy out,

but it's, it's published. It's, you know, free, free game for anybody.

Check out the link in the show notes, 150 pages, solid stuff. This Jeff Reed guy, listen, anytime

somebody like agrees with me, I, or doesn't think I'm an idiot, I consider it a win. And, um, I mean,

really when I, when I'm, when I'm reading this stuff, I'm like, Hey, the idea, even, you know,

as I was on vacation, took a break recently from, from the church digital. And we last podcast, we

had some, some of the leaders on talking about, you know, some of the evolution, wrong words,

some of the changes that came to the church digital as a result. And, um, you know, even seeing how,

um, how you've started champion some of these ideas and putting it into practice.

What's been fun with it, Jeff is, uh, being, being able to go through and take my background

and criminal investigations and like the mindset that comes with, you know, like in the air force,

I did criminal investigations, counterintelligence investigations, and then with the marshals,

fugitive investigations. So like the way you build a case and the way that you, you know,

lay out the facts and basically build the picture, I was able to take that skillset into the academia

world and basically just investigate what's going on. And, you know, especially the digital church

network, you know, like what's going on there. How's this look? And it was really cool that it's,

those aren't my ideas that were presented to the dissertation. It was people that are out there,

uh, paving the road and breaking the ice, um, and really saying, Hey, here's what we're doing

and here's why it matters. So for me, the whole process of finishing up my, my doctorate and,

and dissertation at that was, it was humbling to be an ambassador, you know, to go through and say,

Hey, here's what people are doing and they need a voice. And you need to see what the Holy

Spirit is doing through these people. And that's, that's been the exciting part, um, to be able to

put this in, in, like you said, get it into academia, but now take it from academia and get

it out to, you know, brick and mortar churches and, and, uh, rural areas that are disconnected.

I mean, you know, we'll get into physical, physical, like you said, but we'll never replace

physical and we shouldn't, you know, it needs to be synergistic. It needs to be, um, you know,

coincided. We hear hybrid all the time. Hybrid kind of is usually more accepted than

fidgetal because people don't have to do with a word they're not familiar with, or, you know,

whether they debate whether fidgetal is a real word, right? I try to make it one with the

dissertation, but, uh, I digress. It's a, it's just a matter of realizing that we live in a

technological world that is fidgetal. I mean, we were at work and we're texting our family.

We go home, we're with them physically. We are fidgetal families. You know, we do the same

thing work-wise just before we logged on for this call. I was texting another deputy down in

actually Tampa, um, asking, Hey, I need a lead for this individual. We got a fugitive

and I don't, I've never met him face to face, but we're brothers through what we do. We're connected

and through our digital connection, he's physically apprehending the violent fugitives. So it's just

the world we live in. But anyway, you got me preaching. I'll stop.

I love it. So, so, you know, let's, let's get dirty here a little bit. Let's, let's dive in.

Um, so, I mean, a couple of things. One, you're, you're championing the idea of digital

discipleship, which makes people, makes church leaders uncomfortable. Um, I mean, we don't need

to sugarcoat that. The idea of discipling people digitally has been a controversial idea, uh,

post COVID. Um, and number two, um, you're, you're, you know, using, uh, the, and focusing on

Fidgetal. Thank you very much Stadia for letting us borrow the word Fidgetal, which is a combination

of physical and digital. Stadia literally owns the trademark on that. Some really smart guy told

him to acquire the trademark on that and then it doesn't work for Stadia anymore. Great, great

organization, but I just don't work there. So you've got, um, you've got this, you're, you're

championing digital discipleship and you're championing what I'm understanding is physical

churches to really utilize digital discipleship. Like that's, that's an unpopular idea in 2023,

2024. What, why did you take that focus? Reflecting on it? I think a lot of it is just

my background, you know, having been in, um, really a career field in the military that was

the redheaded stepchild. Nobody wanted to talk to me because I was an OSI agent, right?

Office of Special Investigations. Um, and so we were always off in our own little islands,

which then with the job, I was deployed to the Middle East. I was working in, uh, either by myself

or in pairs of different areas, uh, been to multiple countries and continents and, and doing different

stuff. And so to be rooted, I mean, yes, I had a home and I had a family, but I wasn't always there.

And so to be rooted, um, was something I didn't know. And I actually, and I talk about it a little

bit in my, my dissertation that, um, I was actually digitally discipled as a young baby Christian

and the individual Adam Fitzgerald brother in Christ, um, who we still talk daily. Um, and we've

known each other for, let me do the quick math, uh, over a decade, over a decade. And we've only met

three times in person. Uh, but we talk daily and it's because we use digital tools to connect,

to share life, share stories. And so I've lived it and I've seen that it's impacted my life

and it's guided me, but I've also seen in my own journey and my own testimony, uh, when I didn't

stay engaged through those digital tools with Adam and other brothers and sisters in Christ,

uh, that's when I fell away and I found myself isolated or backslid and stumbled. Um, and so it's

just another Testament, like, Hey, this stuff has to be intentional. It's hard work. It takes a lot of

time. Um, but when you do it right, these stories that come out at the end and the glory that goes

to Christ is undeniable and you can't argue that. And so that's, that's where my passion came from for

it. And I was like, Hey, if that, you know, if I'm not out here by myself, who else is doing this?

And then I had the chance through this platform, through the framework of school to go and investigate

and ask and getting to talk to these leaders that are out here doing this stuff was just

mind blowing. And all I was able to do is synthesize it all together, put it together and be like,

here's, here's a model. Here's a way you can do this. If you're up for the challenge. And if you're

up to actually take the time and effort and make a difference. I, you know, I was, I wasn't familiar

with the Adam story. That's, that's interesting to me. Let me, let me pull the thread on that a little

bit. How did you, how'd you meet Adam? I mean, like how'd you first can get connected with him?

Yep. So I was a brand new, a brand new second Lieutenant in the air force special agent.

And, uh, I was getting into ultra running. Uh, I liked to run when I was younger. Um, and I think

the book born to run came out and the running craze was big. This was like 20, 2010, 2011. And, uh,

and so I read the book and say, I want to, I want to try this ultra running thing, which is anything

over 26.2 miles. Uh, usually it's on a trail or, you know, different terrain. And, uh, so I was like,

well, naturally let's see what's out there. And I was also young in my faith. And I always wanted to

know, um, I want to know more about Jesus. Right. And so I came across, I stumbled across, um, FCA

fellowship, Christian athletes. Uh, they had an endurance branch of FCA and they had an online

forum, the old school chat room forum. And I logged in and just started sharing like, Hey,

you know, here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm trying to learn. And Adam saw the post. I think

he, uh, he said it was a prayer request. I don't, we've looked for it several times,

but the forum's since been down and everything else. So it's, it's now out in the metaverse

somewhere, but, um, we've looked for it, but he says it was a prayer request that I posted

and he responded. Next thing you know, we're talking and you know, we're, like I said, we're

brothers. You know, I go down and see him. I saw him recently. There was, there was a death

in the family and, you know, to be able to be there. And he actually asked me to speak

at the funeral for that person. I mean, it was just, it was humbling that, you know,

here is a brother who I've only met three times in person, but we were connected on that level

that he would ask me to fill a role like that, you know? So, um, yeah, that's, that's the

story.

It's in, it's interesting. The idea of physical or fidgetal, uh, like there is a physical component

to that. And even, even as a digital pastor of, of, of a digital church, utilizing physical

when it's appropriate is, is it's, it's not that it's non-existent. It's actually, I would

assume incredibly powerful. What's it, what's it actually like, you know, the three times

in 10 years that, that you and Adam connect, what are those experiences like?

So, I mean, naturally the first time you go to meet someone face to face, you do you feel

like, Oh, this is going to be awkward, but it was like we had been together our entire,

entire lives because we had connected on such a personal level through text messaging, FaceTime,

forums, email, whatever tools we used. Right. And, uh, so there was never any awkwardness.

I mean, it, there just wasn't. And he absolutely, he absolutely told me, he was like, Hey, you're

actually one of the closest individuals I have day-to-day life. And that was just mind-blowing

to me. You know, it was just a testimony to digital tools being, uh, being useful. Right.

And a lot of folks have the premise that, uh, digital means that you have a huge brick and

mortar church. And then you've got this huge, uh, online campus where you've got, you know,

an online stream and blazer light shows and all this other stuff. And that's not digital.

Well, I mean, yes, let me take that back. It is digital, but that's not the heartbeat of

digital. The heartbeat of digital is the atoms of the world. Being able to connect on that type

of level with someone and have intentional, intentional relationship. That's, that's where

God really makes an impact. I mean, just look at the ministry of Christ. Every time he encountered

somebody, a story came to surface. Every time he encountered the one person, the one person

went and told the story. That's, that's ministry. That's discipleship. That's digital discipleship

for us today. Imagine what Paul would have done if he had the digital tools at his fingertips

that we have. I mean, he used letters because that's what he had, but imagine if he had zoom

or, you know, or Riverside, right? The ability to connect like this, like he would be in awe,

you know? And so we've, we've got to be good stewards of the tools that are sitting at our

fingertips. Yeah. I imagine Paul would, would be, you know, handing some churches their butt

on a sling digitally, you know, trying to figure out how to do that or utilizing social media

to get out in front of a larger amount of people. Um, you know, it's, it's interesting. Actually

a great, great segue talking about Paul and the, the birth of the church and some of the, um,

evangelical movements that, that Paul started with his missionary journeys. Uh, you say, um, I,

I forgot to write down the page number here, but, um, the folk in, in your dissertation,

uh, I'm quoting you, I think, uh, the focus on missional evangelism is not the sole mission,

nor is it the end of digital ministry. On the contrary, it's just the beginning.

Unpack here a little bit, start to expand a little bit on what you're saying here.

Yeah. Um, so I, I made the, the reference just a minute ago about how many churches are creating

the Sunday experience to be streamed online, which amen had at that. There's nothing wrong with that,

but there's too many churches, church leadership, church structures that are settling there and calling

it digital ministry or heaven forbid digital discipleship. And really my, my takeaway from

the research is that's, that's falling short. That's falling short. Um, we're, we're settling

it for an online stream and being a content that is getting the good news out there, which amen,

we should be. Uh, but then we stop. We don't know how either we, either we stop because we

don't have the time resources or the know-how to continue for it, or we stop because we just want

to continue focusing over here on another project. When reality, we need to have folks that are good

stewards to leave that space and move into, um, a digital discipleship, move from digital evangelism,

digital content into discipleship, make this a process that is continually built upon for the

individuals. Um, and in the research, one of the digital church leaders, um, had actually mentioned

that, look, you need to move from, um, content, uh, to, or you need to move from consumer to, um,

wow, am I blanking? I should have wrote this down beforehand. Um, basically you need to move from

consumer to creator. Um, you know, you need, you need to go through and move from consumer to creator,

and you need to make sure that consumer to creator part is just from someone who is, I remember it

now. Here it is. It's consumer contributor and creator. That's the pathway. Uh, one of the folks

I interviewed that was, that's what was, was, uh, was utilized. And so when you have an online stream,

they're consuming what you're putting out there, which is good, but now let's be faithful to lead

them to the next step, which would be contributing. When we get them to go through and comment or share

or engage with an online chat host, that is the next step. But now ultimately we want to move them

into creator, which is an individual that is now out there either leading their own ministry or they're

going through and creating their own content and, you know, replicating again, disciples who make

disciples. And that's, that's the, that's the pull. You want to move them through that, through that

process. And ultimately what you're doing is you're creating obedience in that individual. You know,

you're making them an obedient disciple that's going to follow the call on their life. And they're going

to continue to create disciplines that give them that battle rhythm of being a digital disciple.

Taking that, taking that consumer, um, maturing them, growing them to a contributor where they're,

they're, they're not just absorbing, but they're, they're speaking into it and then growing them to

the place where they're creating. I mean, there's, there's a literal multiplication that's happening

in digital. This is one of that's actually that, that pathway is one of the reasons why I think

digital is actually a very healthy approach towards discipleship because it walks people

towards not just being consumers for years, um, eating or drinking, uh, spiritual milk. It helps grow

people to the place of the solid food of the spiritual state that the Bible speaks of. And so there's this

great opportunity to, to disciple people digitally and grow them to the place where they're not just

absorbing this, but they're not just contributing to this, but they're, they're creating it. And now

they're responsible for discipling others in that. And for me, that's one of the awesome things that

we've seen you do is, is really take this up with, um, with the digital church that, that you started

and now challenging others, uh, within, I just blanked on the name of it. Servants, what's,

what's the name of your church? Servants, uh, servant warrior and, um, in, in, servant warrior church.

Yeah. Seeing you run with that now. Um, well, let, let me ask, there's another quote. I love this.

And, and, and also I have no idea who this guy is. Um, Thomas JN, um, and you credit him in 2014 was,

uh, he said, um, where I've got it here. Uh, he went one step further and utilized the five components

of witnessing, spiritual formation, belonging, worship, and prayer, all found in acts two, uh,

as his criteria for his research, but continue to note, there is still very little research done on

the topic of online discipleship. He suggested, uh, qualitative stuff. Who is Thomas? Um, who's this

guy? JN Thomas. Yep. Um, if I were to pull it up, I believe if I recall correctly, he actually had

a dissertation and that's where that came from. He said this in 2014. And, um, to, to my knowledge,

which I didn't know any work was being done in 2014. Um, and so like he was doing a dissertation

at live is under Liberty in, in 2014. And Thomas, that, that quote that you mentioned is actually,

it is actually the, uh, the thing that really put the light bulb on for my, my focus. I mean,

I was like, all right, like someone needs to do this. Let's give it a shot. Right. Um, okay.

So here we go. So his James and Thomas, he did an analysis of discipleship in online environments.

And that was a dissertation for a PhD. And that was through Dallas Baptist university in June of 2014.

Um, interesting. I just, I didn't know anybody was in that space back in 2014. Uh, and so.

Yep. I think 2010 was probably the earliest who was in 2010. Yeah. You're quizzing me here. I got

to go in and look, I believe, uh, Angela's work was pretty early as well. Angela Craig, 2011. There's

that one. So Jay Mullins had a doctoral dissertation, uh, titled online church. That looks like that was in

at Liberty as well. And a lot of these are other divinity programs, you know, there, there was no

digital discipleship program yet, but they were still starting to dig in, you know? So with that

said, you know, a lot of these, a lot of the references that I use are basically 2010 until

recent and 20, I think 2007 was one of the earlier ones. That was actually Dr. Mary Lowe. She was

talking about online education and that education piece, which brings development bridges very quickly

into discipleship. And that's when we see their book of, uh, ecologies of faith come into play.

Um, but they, uh, you know, a lot of these were 2014, 2015 folks were really starting to say, Hey,

the internet's here. What do we do with it? And then COVID happens. Right. And then that changed

everybody's attention to, Hey, how do we really do this? And so there's been a huge resurgence in the

past three years of trying to understand digital ministry as a whole. Now, as I was reading your,

um, your dissertation, it's interesting that, you know, some, sometimes key words kind of jump

off the page at me. Cause it's, it's words I don't often hear other, other people in church space talk

about. And you, you kept, you know, you referenced several times and dug into it, uh, the idea of

church networks. Now coming from a guy who started a network, uh, like, I, you know, I'm, I'm very

passionate about that idea. So maybe, um, you know, explain to me a little bit when you're talking

about the idea of church networks or networks, what are you envisioning? What do you think the future

is going to look like here? One thing that I've noticed through my research and talking to folks

is there's almost, there's almost a resurgence of the first century church and the 21st century

world. And what I mean by that is the Holy spirit is connecting and moving people, um, through this

digital space. And if we look back at the first century church and the way that the spirit moved

and grew the church, we're starting to see that now, you know, some of the digital church

leaders I spoke to, they have full on church plants that are growing from a digital initiative

in the United States. Now in various African countries, you couldn't have done that anywhere

else, right? Through, except through digital space. And so that's, that's a network. And my argument

would be, we go into scripture and we can look at, you know, the, the body of Christ, the church,

what are we called to be? We are called to be a global unified body glorifying the Christ.

And, uh, you know, we, especially in Western culture, and this could be a whole nother doctoral

study, right? Within Western culture, we've gotten so segmented. You know, we look at post

reformation. We look at, you know, the, the, the rise of Protestant denominations and different

councils and sets of setups and everything else. We've gotten so fragmented where our, our tree now has

so many branches on it that we need to come back to the root. And, um, with that heart of knowing what

it means to be the unified body of Christ, um, set up for the coming days, right? Um, that's where the,

the church network comes into mind. And so an example of what this could look like, and again,

there's several contexts and it could look different for different church leaders, but within, for example,

servant warrior church, um, that is a group of, it started as a group of 12 guys that were, it's

funny, it was 12, um, started as a group of 12 guys that were first responders military. And it was

just an online discipleship group. We would talk, we would had, we had several that if you ask some of

the, the servant warrior OGs, you know, that have been around since the beginning, we've played with

discord. We played with Marco Polo. We played with text groups, Facebook groups, you know,

we tried them all to see what was working best for folks. Uh, but ultimately it led to the point

where it's like, Hey, let's, let's turn this, not just from a discipleship group, but let's be the

visitor or let's be the digital church in physical spaces. And so we started servant warrior church.

And what's different about us is we're focused on that intentional, uh, relationship, organic

discipleship piece, um, where we meet daily, uh, through an online form. It's actually circle

communities as our website. It's kind of like mighty networks, but built differently. And, um, we meet

there and have a full platform, but then we also have three different times each week that we can

get on zoom. There's one time a week where I actually teach, you know, or preach. Um, and then the other

two times are fellowship where we just hang out and we talk and it's grown from 12 people to, I believe,

35, 36 people in just a couple of months. Um, and the thing is, is we're not worried about growth.

We're not, we're not like, we're worried about the one we want to have that intentional relationship.

We purposely don't advertise. I mean, we have, we have a website. That's just a splash page that

leads you to circle, but I'm not posting content on Facebook, Instagram. I'm not trying to pull people

in because the spirit will do that. That's his job. His job is to go through and build the church

and convert and transform hearts. Our job is just to steward the people that he brings to us.

And so having that focus has changed the way we do church. Um, and so with that said, we're,

we're training, we're training disciples up and we're equipping them and showing them, Hey,

the spirit filled spirit led life is talked about in the book of Acts is real. And it can be done today,

just as it was back then, if we do it correctly and we surrender to him through obedience every single

day. And by doing that, we now are raising up leaders and what's cool. And what would be the

vision here is going through and having these leaders that are in, I mean, we have Florida,

we have Michigan, Ohio, Tennessee, South Carolina, California, Nevada. Um, and we also have a couple

of families that are doing something called overlanding where they're in their four by four vehicle and

they're traveling the world. We have a family down in Argentina right now, another family getting ready to

go back to Peru. They're in the States visiting family now. Uh, but we connect actually one of the

elders. He's, he's going back to Peru here in just a couple of months with his wife and son and

continuing their global journey. And so it's just really cool to connect these folks where they have

physical expressions that they can start to engage with their communities, their workplaces, um, and

other folks that they know. And so they're, they're creating that network organically. And how cool would it

be to take servant warrior church and create a servant warrior network one day where we're going

through and we're connecting with say a rural church in the middle of, I don't know, you know,

Timbuktu, Nebraska, that just doesn't have a connection to, you know, a bigger city or a bigger

church. And we can say, Hey, we have this online space where we can basically send you a digital

missionary where we're going to go and create a space for your physical church. And we're going to send one of

our digital members there into that space. They'll teach you how to run this, how to engage, build it

up. And then at that point we go through and spend three months with them. And then we launch them off

on their own and they create a network where we're not a denomination. We're not saying you have to do

things our way. It's just a, Hey, here's the tool and we're connected in Christ. Why don't we build

each other up? And it's just a way of taking initial thought for a digital church and building it into a

network that's physically located all over the place.

And the idea of, of a, of a church network isn't, isn't a new concept, you know, life, life church

has had the open network for, for years. And, and, you know, I, you know, even going back to maybe

2015, um, you know, the opportunity to sit down with some of, some of the life church guys to talk

specifically about that. And, and the idea is to be very open-handed. Like you cannot, there's a

difference between a network and like a, a series of multi-site churches, multi-site churches. You

usually are very centralized and very controlling of what's happening in that space with a network.

You have to be very open-handed and very loose with that. And so there's, and, and sometimes,

you know, the physical churches isn't, isn't comfortable being loose and open-handed with that

because the, the mindset's just not necessarily there. And so it's, it's a different mindset,

but in 2024, um, you know, maybe it, it pays off for ministry to look different, to be more open-handed,

uh, than closed-fisted, so to speak. Sorry for the analogy there.

And what's, what's nice about that idea, Jeff, is you can go through, you can go through and take, um,

you can take this network idea and you can remain open-handed because a lot of people that are taking

these ideas in, like you said earlier, by vote, co vote, right? I get paid absolutely nothing, not one

pennies for doing the servant warrior church thing. My employment comes through, you know, department of

justice. Um, that's my, my, my main income and that's my focus. But within that, I'm also called to be a

disciple. And so I can remain open-handed and not worried about budgets, keeping lights on everything

else. I mean, the only thing that costs us is it's $120 a month to keep our digital space open,

which we have folks that are being faithful to help support that. So 120 bucks a month versus,

you know, thousands of dollars for rent and lights and everything else, right? Like totally different

thing to where, um, we're, our focus is different. We don't have to be tied to, um, you know, the

traditional, um, framework, you know, it's, it's something that is a lot of, a lot more free.

So, you know, to those that are maybe thinking about trying it, like give it a shot, you know,

you'll be surprised what the Holy spirit will do with it. If you're just obedient to follow.

So let's, let's dig into your research a little bit here. Um, what, what did your research look

like? What, what questions were you asking? What were your findings? Like, give me,

give me a little bit here on, uh, on the research you put together.

So quick nutshell on this, basically it's a, it's called a qualitative grounded theory study.

All right. Fancy way of saying, I'm not focused on numbers. I'm going to focus on the story behind

it and the kind of the factual evidence, um, on top of going through and dialing into this thing that

doesn't have much, uh, research into it yet. That's why it's called grounded theory. And so, uh, what,

what that allows me to do is let the data that's collected go through and interpret itself and speak

for itself. And so through that, through that process of how that worked, um, I was able to,

to develop basic questionnaire. That's called the DCLQ. Uh, it's the digital church leader questionnaire,

extremely original, um, within those 10 questions though, it's three subsets. And the one subset is

asking a research question about how are digital church leaders, um, basically viewing digital

discipleship and, uh, digital networks. And then the second section is what methods are they using?

How are they already doing it or how are they seeing it done? And then the third question is how are they

making sure that this is, uh, effective, not asking exactly their measurements, but how are they,

how are they measuring? What are they, what are they judging their effectiveness by? And so within

those, uh, 10 questions that were asked to all the digital church leaders, um, the data just started

flowing in and it was transcripts and everything that was able to upload and do the geek stuff and

start looking, okay, what's the problem of themes? Who says what, how many times, and really just kind

of flush it out. And, um, within my dissertation, there's, there's three different charts, um, that

really break these down and folks again can download it in the comments.

And, um, you know, look into it, but ultimately to keep it short, um, the first research question of

what is digital discipleship really boiled down to digital discipleship is just biblical discipleship

with a new innovative twist of using different tools. That's, that's all it was. And, you know,

to, to, to go through and think that it's something, um, that's just this amoeba that you can't get your

hands on is really a myth. Um, it is nothing more than, um, going through sharing the good news and

building them up in Christ and using the tools that you have to, to make that happen. Um, within that dialing

down though, the, the RQ1 findings basically found five main, um, tenants that made digital discipleship

what it is. And basically digital discipleship has to be innovative. You have to be willing to try new things.

It has to be immersive. You know, I've talked a lot so far in our chats today that you have to be engaged

every single day. You have to be immersed. I mean, the, think of the initial 12, they lived and walked

and, and, you know, had meals with Jesus every day. Um, that's, that's an immersive experience that a lot of,

uh, dare I say physical churches don't have, you know, it kind of comes to the, we'll see you next week.

Well, that's, that's not the church. Um, synergistic, you know, going through and having that connection

of everything we've been talking about in the digital world, and then making sure that it's

relational and you're adapting. You've got to go through. And one of the guys that I interviewed,

um, he'll probably listen to this. He talked about grace bridges and he said, Hey, we need to meet

people where they're at, which is no different than traditional evangelism and discipleship. You got

to meet folks where they're at. We do the same thing in digital space. And so that grace bridge

actually takes us into that next main finding of the research question, the second research

question. And that was looking at the methods. And I could sit here for a whole another hour on this

section where, um, really, if you think of a digital tool, an app, a website, um, or any type of forum

that's out there, it's all been tried and used and they all work in their own ways at their own place

and time. And so one of the things that really came out of that is don't allow yourself to choose a pet

tool and then miss out on all the others that can actually help you out. Um, you know, just like a

toolbox in a garage, you've got different tools for different jobs, make sure you're being faithful to

use those tools at the right time. And so within that, ultimately what you needed is you need to have

committed leadership. You need to have a missional focus again, synergistic, um, and then stay

innovative and have that micro to macro approach. We talked a lot earlier about you, you got to worry

about the one, don't worry about the, the, you know, the masses and bringing in, you know, a mega

church. If that's, what's meant to happen, the spirit will make that happen. Just focus on the one.

And then the last, uh, research question there, uh, was looking at the measurement part. And this,

I know we'll probably dial into this just a little bit more, but the biggest thing there is we talked

about, uh, vanity metrics a lot and the vanity metrics were basically like, Hey, we go through,

we measure attendance, we measure likes, and we measure duration, but really are they telling us

anything about effectiveness? And all the digital church leaders that I interviewed are like, honestly,

when it comes to vanity metrics, they're junk. All they are is an indicator that something's happening,

but you don't know what's happening. And so you've got to drill in further and say, okay,

how do we actually measure for effectiveness? And the things that this research found is that we

have to figure out, is there obedience? Is there steps of obedience happening within those individuals

that are engaged in digital tools and digital space? Um, what are their testimonies? You know,

one of the digital church leaders said, look, you can't argue a story. I'm like, that's quotable.

You know, like you're exactly right. Like, again, look at the gospels, look at Jesus's ministry,

look at the parables story is powerful. We have to be chasing the story. Um, and within that story,

we can measure things, you know, and that's, that's up to the church leader to figure out within their

context, what does that look like? But again, chase the story, um, and focus on that, that growth,

focus on the daily fruit, you know, Galatians 5, 22, 23, what is the spiritual fruit? Do we see that

if it's happening? Then, okay, you're doing digital discipleship. If it's not, maybe we need to shift

focus and figure out why. Um, and then ultimately the global nexus. Again, we got to think, we got to

think global church, big C church, whenever we touch digital, because within that, that's, I mean,

digital gives us the ability to think big C church at all times. And we have to maintain that as we

push, push out into this, but ultimate, ultimately Jeff, when it came down to it, um, if you're going

to go through and have a, uh, digital vision tools in a mission, you have to have all those things I

talked about. The obedience is key. The synergistic approach is key. And then the innovative and the

immersive, uh, focus in your relationships is absolutely key. So that's, that's basically

the dissertation in a nutshell. So hopefully you stayed awake and you don't have to go read 150

pages. Dr. Dan Tebow, literally doctorate in digital discipleship. Um, well, church leadership

with an emphasis in digital discipleship, but, uh, very, uh, very good words there. Check out the

dissertation, um, to get more information on that. So much, literally so much meat in there. I was,

was very impressed reading it. Um, so man, thanks for the work that you did. Uh, it was interesting.

Uh, as I, as I was reading it, um, and I'm not sure what page this was, but I kind of chuckled

under my breath. Um, uh, so you said at some point in your dissertation of note, uh, this literature

review did not uncover specific fidgetal leaders at this concept had yet, uh, leaders as this concept

had not yet been flushed out within the digital church framework. Hence the intent of this research

study was to better understand the fidgetal church, uh, and its viable contributions to digital

discipleship and effectiveness within like, you know, chuckle, the physical, the physical church,

the physical church. They haven't, haven't figured out that you, this, um, let me ask you,

you know, you're, I, it's, you know, I've just kind of like, I don't know my seat. I'm like,

thank you very much. Cabs it obvious, but I know, I know what you were, I know you're writing to your

audience in that, but what do you think the struggle is? I'm going to like get, why is this so controversial

within, within the physical church? What we've got a lot of physical church people that, you know,

they're, they're listening. They're asking questions. They're, they're interested. They're

feeling tension from above. Um, how, how do they combat maybe too strong, but how, how do they work

through this? Um, and that's, that's a loaded question, Jeff. Um, it's actually one of the things

that I recommended at the end of my dissertation, like, Hey, this needs to be explored. You need

to ask these questions and, and take time to go talk to, uh, you know, just focus instead of

going to a physical church leader, go to a physical church leader and start asking these questions and

see, you know, delve in what are the things holding them back. Um, you know, I, I, I barely tapped the,

the tip of the iceberg when it came to that within this. And what I found so far was that usually it's,

it's fear of the unknown. It's different. Um, it's challenging. The that's new, you know,

all these things make someone uncomfortable because they're used to doing things a certain way.

Um, and they don't know what to do with it. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is there's

a lot of time requirement within making this work. You know, um, two, three months, about three months

in with servant warrior church. And, you know, one of the, one of the guys on the call the other night,

it's like, Hey, there's only, there's only about six, seven, eight folks that are actually

intentional on being here every single day. I'm like, that's okay. Because that's six,

seven, eight people that are so intentional that are now going to replicate. And so you have to go

through and be accepting of the way that discipleship can take form without seeing a big bang for your

buck right off the bat. And I fear that too many physical church leaders are like, well, we're not

really seeing growth. We're not seeing a, you know, influx in tithing or attendance or whatever

metrics they are measuring by. And so they discard it. And it's like, man, if you just wait a little

bit longer and be patient with what you have, you may see a garden emerge that you never knew it's

there. And so ultimately, again, it comes down to fear of the unknown. It comes down to not willing

to actually you till the soil as long as it needs to. And then the other part is they're just so focused

on the other things that are directly in front of them. You know, this, this is one of those things that

if you don't know how to engage with digital tools, it can be completely daunting, right?

I have co-workers that are a little bit older, and then they're struggling in just a word processor,

right? If you don't know how to use the tool, you need someone to show them. And so I would love to see

a rally of digital missionaries, for lack of a better term, that are willing to go out and start

training people, you know, give them the ability to see that, hey, this isn't something to be scared of.

Yes, it's new, but it can be utilized. And here's how you do that. You know, let me let

me go with you, walk with you. And so that's, that's something I think if we were to focus that

going into the next year or two, we would start to see more obedience stories emerge that we never

knew were coming. Dr. Dan Tebow of Servant Warriors, Sharon here. And so, man, hey, thanks,

thanks for the time. Dan, this is, this has been, this has been really good moving beyond the metrics,

re-evaluating what the church looks like, moving beyond the nickels and noses

approach and, and, and understanding that that discipleship is measured differently and it takes

time. You know, it's interesting. I can remember, um, I can remember in my church staff career,

I want to say the year was 20, maybe 2008. And I was in a church staff meeting at the church I was

working at at the time and was, was part of a conversation with the lead pastor and the senior

leaders of the church about the approach towards, uh, what discipleship would look like. And, um,

and discipleship as part of that, discipleship went the route for the church. This is 2008. It went

small groups. You know, the, the, the typical approach is what they decided, but there was, there was,

even in 2008, there was a strong push towards, towards more intentional, uh, discipleship and

disciple making is what we probably would more call it. Uh, but it was, it was shot down at the church.

And, and, and to be honest, I, I, I think to this day, I, I ask the question all the time,

what if 15 years ago, this church had a change of heart and instead 15 years ago decided towards

an approach of disciple making instead of discipleship? Um, how would it have affected

differently? Would we have seen the exponential growth, not pun intended with exponential, but the

exponential growth that happens with discipleship over time? Um, and so like wrestle with some of

this stuff with your church, with your leaders, uh, ask them some great questions and download Dan's,

um, uh, dissertation on digital discipleship. Good stuff. Hey, listen, Dan, as we're landing the plane

here, uh, man, any closing thoughts on your side? No, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. You know,

it's you've, yes, I've referenced you a lot and I hope you see how much of an impact you had on this

work. I mean, this is, believe it or not, you were discipling me through the process every time

we would text every couple of months. And it was just one of those things that I'm thankful for.

You know, it's, um, it's, um, it that's, that is what digital discipleship looks like. It's just

intentional communication designed at furthering for the glory of Christ. And that's, that's what

you're doing at DCN and I couldn't be more thankful to be part of it. So thanks brother.

Amen. Listen, I appreciate it. Um, I'm excited to see how, uh, things go with servant warriors,

how things go with everything that you're working on. And, um, believe me, we have a lot more

conversations to go through. So, uh, you can, we'll, we'll keep texting. Um, I'm sure on this,

but Hey, for now we're going to land the plane and we're going to wrap it up. So for, for Dan,

this is Jeff Reed, uh, with the church digital, because all of the digital church network and the

church digital is all coming into the church digital. We talked about that before, but Dan wasn't

aware of that. So that's okay. DCN, uh, God rest his heart. We're, we're merging it

under the church digital. So Jeff with the church digital wrapping things up. So thanks everybody

for jumping on the pod. We'll see you next time. Y'all have a good day.