EP280 - Trauma, Crisis, and Digital Ministry

Welcome to the church digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper

questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission

field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church,

an established church, or a startup church plant, the church digital's goal is to help churches like

yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart? The churches like yours

would discover a new founded focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right, we got episode 280 of the church digital podcast,

Jeff Reed here. And I am looking forward to sharing this conversation with you. Over the past six

months, I had a break, a sabbatical arrest. I went on an extended vacation dealing with my own mental

crash. And as a result of that, and some of the extenuating circumstances around it, the idea of

mental health has become very important to me as an individual. And let's just be honest, as digital pastors,

as people doing digital ministry and digital and virtual spaces, we run into a lot of situations,

especially if we're relational, especially if we're conversational, especially if we listen to people.

We run into a lot of situations of people that are dealing with high issues with trauma, high issues

with crisis. We deal with a lot of mental health issues. And rather than running from the situations,

rather than hiding from the situations, rather than ignoring those situations, I think we, the church,

we need to understand how to respond, how to help, how to do what God is calling us to do

in those situations and sticking our head in the sand. Well, pre-COVID, that may have been the answer

or a viable option, but 2024, I just, I don't think we can get away with it anymore. So here's what we're

doing. We do what we do here with the Church Digital Podcast. We have a conversation about it. We bring in

some experts, we bring in some people who have wisdom in that space, and we learn from them. We gain

insights from their experience in physical and digital ministry, and we learn how to apply it to

what we are doing at our different physical, digital, digital, virtual churches around the world.

So here's who we're bringing into the conversation. We're bringing in Megan Carter. Now, Megan is no,

she's no stranger here to the podcast. She's been on quite a bit, and she is doing a ton of incredible

work at her church, First Capital Christian Church, Church Anywhere. Tyler Sansom's lead pastor over

there. Many of you know Tyler. Megan is Next Steps pastor, which deals with assimilation and next

steps, and that's nice. But a lot of what we're bringing Megan in for is her wealth of information

on dealing with trauma. Megan has been getting certified by the American Association of Christian

Counselors, AACC, Light University. We'll put some information in the show notes about that. You can

dig into that. But Megan is becoming very well-versed when it comes to handling trauma and mental health

issues that are popping up in digital ministry. But also bringing into the conversation, in addition to

Megan, we are bringing in Stacey Knapp. And so Stacey is a chaplain, and she does a lot of work

digitally connecting with people that are going through crisis. Now, the first question you're

asking is, what's the difference between crisis and trauma? That's a great question. One that I

didn't know the answer to until we did this conversation, this podcast. So here's what we're

doing. We're having that conversation, trauma, crisis, and digital ministry.

I'm Megan Carter. I work at First Capital Christian Church slash church anywhere. It's kind of all our

online pieces. And I am the next steps pastor here, which doesn't tell you a lot about what I do,

but I do anything that involves whatever people's next steps are. I've had about five different roles

at the church. And this one has been the sweet spot. And it's been really exciting because I get to work

digitally and in person, which is so much fun to be able to do both and work in ministry in different

areas. And they are similar in some spaces and different in other ways. And then also, I am a

board certified mental health coach through with the AACC. And that's been a really cool process to work

through. And then I'm working on my biblical counseling program this year. So that's an exciting

thing of just being able to help and care for people. A little bit more knowledge behind that

too. So that's a big piece about me. I'm a mom of two kids and I'm a wife.

I didn't realize you were working on your biblical counseling program.

I am. Yeah. I'm excited about 90 hours. I think I've got three of them done.

Oh my. A few more.

Do you have like a timer or a countdown or something like that?

Oh my gosh.

Pretty much. Yeah.

That's brutal. You're going to do 90 hours in one year? Is that my understanding?

Yeah. Well, it's like 90 technical hours. So like each class is an hour long test afterwards

and then you can move on. Yeah.

Oh, just simple. Just like that. I'm fine. Simple.

Good for you. Okay. And there's a lot to talk about AACC. We're going to get into it. But

Stacey, why don't you tell us a little bit about it?

Hey, yeah. I'm out of Phoenix, Arizona currently. And I serve as a chaplain in local

employers' workspaces, but also a lot of my work is grief, companionship in the digital space,

whether it's Facebook Messenger, text messages, different types through Zoom, video chats,

and also in pastoral staff for Imagine Church, which is a pretty much strictly digital church,

started in 2017 when they wanted to, their heart was to serve people that for whatever reason in life,

that they're not able to actually attend church in person on the weekends. And I have a soapbox about

that, why we have to exist. And so we just are open to anyone and everyone, physical challenges,

mental challenges, social challenges, or caregivers, or people who just work on the weekends. So I really

value that. And my heart is to be a chaplain and mainly to be present with people in their pain and

loss, whatever that is, loss of a loved one, loss of friendship, loss of a pet, transitions. There's

losses and good things. There's even losses. And so I just come alongside them. I don't diagnose and I

don't come up with a treatment plan for people, but I just come alongside and together with the person,

we form a care plan for them in their grief. And thanks so much, Jeff. Appreciate your

inviting me to this conversation.

Yes, this is, this is going to be, I keep saying the word interesting. It's going to be an interesting

conversation, um, right up here at the top. And I said this in the introduction, like I,

I don't know a lot about mental health and, and, and already in, in this conversation, we're using words

like trauma. We're using words like crisis. We're using words like, uh, counseling. We're using, uh,

chaplaincy. Like there's, there's some interesting words that really, you know, for someone that's in,

in ministry, we don't, we don't often talk about this, uh, you know, on the church side of the

equation. Um, yet, you know, my experience in digital ministry, there's so much need and so much

opportunity with people that have gone through trauma or people that are, that are dealing with,

with crisis. And so I don't know, you know, in 2024, it just seems to me, uh, that we need to be

more aware of this as, as ministers and pastors in digital and virtual spaces.

Yeah. Um, how, how big of a deal should mental health be in, in digital ministry?

Go on, Megan, go girl, go on.

I'm very passionate about that. Uh, yeah, it should be huge. It's, it's something we all deal with. Um,

we all deal with some form of mental health, whether that's, um, dealing with just grief,

uh, daily things that happen in your life or a loss of a loved one, or if it has to

deal with like bigger things, like a traumatic experience and everything in between. Um,

we all deal with something. There's a phrase that, um, I think kind of gets passed around our staff,

but it's like, no one gets a pass. Literally. That's the truth. Like no one gets a pass in life.

There's always something. So it's like mental health always been there. Um, we just don't always talk

about it. And we should, because it's a, it's a big part of who we are, even as Christ followers.

Um, that's a piece of us where mentally and physically and spiritually and emotionally and

relationally, all those things create a whole person. Um, so it's something we definitely need

to talk about.

Yeah. There's tons of examples in scriptures throughout people struggling with their mental

health. I mean, on and on the expression of it, uh, Psalms. I mean, I, it just, even with,

there's a book called Lamentations, you know, I, I, I cracked up at how, how much there's a whole

book called Lamentations. And yet, um, it's that value doesn't seem to be reflected in the local church

as much as it's reflected in scriptures.

Well, let's do this. Let's go ahead and put some definitions on some of these words.

Um, and so, you know, let's, let's start with, uh, with trauma and then, and then crisis. But so trauma,

uh, Megan, why, why don't you help us here? Like help us define what, what exactly trauma is.

Yeah. So trauma, I wrote this down so I wouldn't get it wrong because I could give you my definition,

but this will be a lot more simple. So trauma is an emotional state of discomfort and stress

resulting from memories of an extraordinary catastrophic experience, which shattered the

survivor's sense of invul, vulnerability to harm. So basically all that said sounds really pretty. Um,

but trauma is just, it's our perception. Um, what our perception is, is our truth.

So whatever that may be, however, we experienced a situation, whether it's big or

many little things is how we perceived as truth. Um, even though it may not seem like

that to everyone on the outside. So it's very specific to an individual.

So in digital ministry, what, what is, what does trauma look like? What are some,

someone who's going through trauma and digital, like, is, do you have an example or something that

you could share about how, uh, Trump, how someone would deal with trauma?

I mean, that's, I mean, a lot of people do. I think it's like

50% of humans like we'll deal with trauma in some way, shape or form, which is huge. Um,

and that it's a variety of things, um, a lot of different pieces and, and it works the same

in person as online with like the way we experience things. Everybody again experiences them individually,

but you have violence, you have, you know, bullying online, um, abuse. There's physical illnesses or

injuries, um, abandonment issues, death of loved one can have like childhood neglect and then natural

and then man-made disasters are some of the big ones that people face with.

So, so trauma is more, uh, I guess ongoing where it's, it's just the, the, the state of mind.

Uh, it's an environment that, that you're a part of. Um, and then there's, then there's crisis.

Stacey, dig into us a little bit. Yeah. When, when it comes to chaplaincy work, uh,

we, we meet people where they are in that moment. So it's a crisis moment, typically sudden event.

And, uh, I would say, and particularly same with trauma is that it's similar in the fact that it is

different for each person. So even though we may have experienced the same event,

it may not be a crisis to you, but it's a crisis to me. And so with chaplaincy work, we are the

somewhat of the first responders in that, in a crisis situation. So maybe disaster relief or

someone calls to say, I, I'm having a hard time. Okay, great. So let's relieve some of the pressure

right now by just sharing and talking it through, uh, with me. But if it's long term, then we're,

we're going to send you over to Megan or we'll send it to someone else that, uh, will come up with and

maybe come up with a treatment plan ongoing or to work through that, uh, together. Um, like I said, crisis is

almost like a, uh, almost like a, uh, surprise event and you have a emotional response to emotional,

mental, spiritual response to it. And chaplains work in that capacity. Uh, not, not, um, I mean,

there's chaplains who are also, you know, therapists and counselors, but it really depends on, uh,

the time it happens and then treatment or care ongoing. I'm curious, Stacy with the, with the

chaplaincy and your, your background in that your work with, uh, imagine church. Do you see,

um, like, are there parts where that chaplaincy characteristics or lessons that you're learning

that, that it carries over into? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's not, I think I've

experienced when, you know, we get to know each other pretty well because we are in zoom communities

in our church. So it's kind of small group feel intimacy, uh, but with the framework of sermons

and there's music worship and for us to sing. But, um, yeah, when there's a crisis response,

someone will say they're having a hard time with fill in the blank, whatever, whatever it is. And for me,

because of my training in chaplaincy work that I have steps in my head, you know, I'd like,

okay, let's ask this question. But also I would say also in my, uh, spiritual support and pastoral

care, uh, you kind of, I kind of marries both of them because I have a relationship with them. Uh,

most, most of the time I have a relationship with the person already. So there's already trust

established and also, uh, in chaplains, we'd say we have our, our, uh, list of resources and allies.

So it's have these tools in our tool belt to say, okay, I'm going to help you in this crisis right now.

Uh, and, and here's some other resources, trusted resources that I know and have vetted myself that

you might want to reach out to, uh, because we don't, we're, we don't have a counselor on staff.

We don't have a therapist on staff, but I know people that can help. And, um, it's just bumping

them up. We say bumping them up to the next level of care. Um, again, that would be a crisis situation

and bumping them up to the next level of care would be perhaps there's trauma underneath all of that,

that maybe they need to work through and have someone, uh, guide them through that.

Megan, what stories do you have of, of, of dealing with trauma, um, with, within the work that you're

doing with, with first capital, uh, in the church anywhere? Yeah. Um, I would say, and it kind of

ties to what Stacy was just saying too. Like typically the person doesn't just come out and be like,

I'm dealing with trauma. Like that's not, um, unless they've been diagnosed and then they're

probably seeing a professional, like a mental health professional, and then they're probably on a good

path of treatment, but they don't typically come out and say it. And I think of one instance of,

um, I was talking to a person online, um, and we were talking about just little issues and things

that they were going through. And, um, this person was local. And so I was actually able to meet them

up in person here at the church, which was really cool. Um, and then get to talk a little deeper, um,

into some things and found out that there was trauma lying underneath that. So we were able

to address that. And once we could address it and they started to recognize it, it made that

just go so much smoother of like recognizing why they're reacting to certain situations like today

because of things from their past memories, things that are continued being stirred up.

And so that was a way to kind of work through them. Um, there's been a lot of times that we've had to

just like Stacy was saying, refer people out to other professionals, because again, I'm right now

a mental health coach. And that's really just guiding people along, um, to figure out where

the next step needs to be. And so we will refer them to people who can do a lot more. Um, we have

a lady who works out of our church. Um, she has an office space and she is trained in trauma. Um,

she deals a lot with first responders. And so I've learned a lot from her through that too,

but just being able to recognize how, you know, things that people say, little things that they're

like, well, I'm not sleeping well, or different things that are just causing that trauma to really

increase and watching that and then giving them the best treatment and helping them find maybe the

best treatment through someone else as well.

Is, does how, and it's interesting, uh, Megan, you are, um, I mean, you're first capital church

anywhere. It's hybrid, physical and digital. Um, is, so does how you handle, you know, some of these,

um, trauma situations, how you minister, how you do ministry, does it differ between physical and

digital? Like how you, you treat someone or how you address someone that's going through a traumatic

situation? Yeah, it, it is different in a sense, because when you sit across from a person,

there is just a different sense of feeling what they're feeling, being able to emotionally connect

with them because you're face to face. Um, but we have had people connect and do that through zoom.

Um, it's a lot more difficult just because you only get so much through a computer. Um, but as long as

you're really actively listening, which is a key point of listening to what they're saying and

even what they're not saying sometimes, um, picking up on those things. And then even like verbally

listening of repeating back what they say so that the person on the other end is understanding that

you're getting their point of view, because it's more about the facts that they're laying out and their

story than like just the overall arching facts of, well, this happened, this happened, this happened,

but this happened, which made them feel this way, which caused this thing to happen. And so that's

really when you start to get into the weeds of like finding the, the root of all the issues that

they're kind of having at that moment.

: It's interesting. I mean, we could maybe drill in on the, the percentage of loss between physical

versus the zoom and how much of it gets lost or not. Um, another day, not today, but Stacy,

do you, do you agree with that? Do you feel like it's, there's a, there's a loss between the two?

Cause I know you guys spend a lot of time and imagine on zoom.

: I agree. Yeah, there is a difference. I mean, I, there, we had a recent situation,

which I actually reached out to Megan to get some, some, uh, advice and, you know, share,

I wanted to know her experience about serving someone. Now, most recent, there was a very much

a crisis situation, but that person lived less than 10 miles from me. So I gave them the emergency

hotline information and then jumped in my car and went to go see her. I am not able to do that.

: We, for the 95% of our church that don't live in Phoenix. So, um, uh, having it in person though,

was, was really helpful. Uh, and because we only see this part of someone at church, we don't see the rest

of them. We kind of, kind of reminds me of, uh, you know, in the news anchor people, you know, they have

this, and then they've got like tatted up jeans below, but they have like a suit jacket and a, and

a top on, you know, kind of thing. And I feel like we do not, we just don't have all our senses

activated when it's online. Unlike in person, we could see how the person's walking. We can see how

the person is responding to different situations when, you know, are they scared when someone quickly

walks by, you know, those kinds of things we do not have a gauge on. And Megan so eloquently shared with

me, she said, remember though, we don't catch everything in person either. And so that was

really encouraging to me because I felt like we were losing, uh, um, being present with people in their

their crisis because we just didn't know, you know, we can't, we can't smell you. We don't know

approximately how many days have you not showered. Uh, you know, just little things that I feel like

we're missing, uh, being in digital space only, even with that, like, you know, we kind of,

it felt like we were kind of being like, well, digital, you can't do as much like ministry with

mental health. But like, if that's the only option and that's the only way somebody is going to get

connected to it, you're going to do so much more. You don't know, you know, sometimes we don't

necessarily know their issues or what's going on and what they're struggling with. And they may have

social anxiety. So walking into a building or walking into a place they're not going to do,

but to turn on a computer screen and sit there and not have to be like, well, they don't see me

fidgety and they don't see this and that, but they're able to open up. That's going to mean so

much more than just, you know, there's definitely things we can do, but you just have to, you have

to learn a little different. It's kind of like online, you learn a different culture. You're learning a

different way to do that ministry. Yeah, that's good. That's a good reminder. Cause I, I honestly

think that I don't think she would have showed this person would have shared that type of struggle,

crisis situation in person, uh, unless she really had the intimate setting that we have,

um, getting to know one another every week, staying in contact through the week.

We have in-app text message or in-app messaging in our church app. So we're, we're staying in touch

during the week that it's not just Sunday to Sunday, but it's in between following up.

There's some accountability in there too. Cause if you share that you're struggling with something

and you're asking for some care, then we're going to say, Oh, there you go. Yes. We're going to pray

for you. Hey, I'm going to check in. We're going to, let's stay connected in the app. We're going to

check in. So keep, keep those notifications on or, you know, to respond, you know, respond,

because if you don't respond, you know, within, you know, within a few days, we'll be concerned.

What's an example of like a, a tell? Cause we said earlier, they don't come out and say, Hey,

I'm going through a traumatic situation. Oftentimes there, uh, there's, there's physical tells and

triggers that you, you would see or an online, if it's within the frame, like what, what are some

things that, that help us realize, Oh, there, there's something going on deeper here. There's,

there's something beneath the surface that we need to explore. I would say a big one

is like almost numbness, like that emotional flatness. Like they don't really show any

expression and that's, it would be harder. Cause I know we do a lot of things with texting too,

and you can't gauge somebody's emotion through texting, but you can pick up on something. So if

you can tell if somebody is kind of feeling maybe more depressed, um, and that's out of character

or dealing with a heightened anxiety, um, insomnia is a huge one. So if they're texting

you at all hours of the day and night, they're probably not sleeping. So that's a good kind of

to check on that. Um, and attention, attention deficit, uh, problems is a huge one where they can't just

focus in on one thing and they start going everywhere else. Those are kind of like maybe the big common

ones, but each area, like your emotional behavioral and spiritual and relational will have different

ones. Then you could go through a huge list of those different things, which kind of filter into

other mental health areas too. So you can kind of look through that list and, and we'll go through

that and think through the person, like what they've been saying. And you can start to see like,

if there is more trauma there or if there's another issue.

Yeah. I would echo that, but you know, the trends, like the trends, there's someone that comes every

single week and then, then it becomes sporadic, you know, they're like, okay,

something's going on this, what this person's not saying or sharing. Um, but I think that there's,

but that takes attentiveness, you know, on our part and being aware of that and, you know,

or maybe someone's not sharing like they used to share. Uh, that's something, uh, framed within our

sermons are what we call community time and their discussion questions that have to do with the

sermon. So, you know, we know the talkative ones, right? And, uh, if that person's not talkative,

then that's kind of like, uh, alerts in your head, like what's going on with that person?

How come they're not talking so much? They're not sharing as much. So, um, yeah, I think that's,

that's, I would say that's probably one of the bigger ones for us within our context.

Okay. So we, we find someone that's going through a traumatic situation. We figured this out, um,

via zoom, we figured this out via texting or, or, you know, chat room conversation, something there,

there's some trigger that's, that's obvious, um, where they're, they're going through a difficult

situation. Like as, as ministers, as pastors, what, what are we supposed to do? Like, are we, uh,

downplaying the trauma? Oh, it's not, not a big deal. Are we trying to solve the situation for them?

Tell them we're praying for them. Like what's the goal, uh, for us helping someone or ministering

to someone that's going through a traumatic situation?

The very first thing I think of, and my professors will be so excited because is first do no harm. Um,

that's literally the first thing they teach us, do no harm. So it's shifting the focus from asking

them like, well, what's wrong with you is to what happened to you. And that changes how they're going

to respond because they're not going to put up a wall that thinking like if there's shame attached to it,

even like thinking that it's a, I didn't like identity piece, like, well, there's something

wrong with me. So, you know, what is wrong with me? And then they start going down a different path,

but asking them what happened to you and walking through that. Um, and then the other piece that

I think of a lot is like getting into somebody else's perspective. Um, so thinking with that trauma

informed mindset, um, even if it doesn't make sense to you, if even it's like little things that happened

over time and to you, they're like, yeah, that's life. That's not a big deal to them. It is a big

deal. And so the hurt or the feelings that they have with that are valid. And so taking it from that

perspective will really shift how you think about it, which will shift like their trust in you more

because they'll really know that you're caring for them and wanting to think, you know, talk about it

for them. Yeah, I definitely would say the, you know, uh, attentive to their experience. Um, we are,

when we say do no harm, that means we're not going to minimize their experience. We're going to listen

and, um, empathetic ear. A lot of that happens a lot, a lot of, a lot of listening, less talking

because sometimes it really is, they need to be heard. Um, a person who's in crisis or experienced

trauma needs to be heard. And, um, you know, and as pastors and ministers, we, we have to know ourselves

well, we have to know ourselves well enough to know this is going, this needs more help than I can

actually give. I can care. I could pray. I could check in, uh, but they're going to need more than my

experience and what the letters are behind my name. And, and that requires humility. That requires

humility. You got to know that I like, Whoa, no, I can't fix this. Also know yourself well. And the

fact that you, do you have a tendency to be a fixer? If that's the case, you know, you, this is not,

you got to move it on to the next person. Cause that's not your, that's not your role.

Yeah. And saying like, it's okay to not know the answer to something. Like you don't have to have

all the answers, but sometimes, especially as pastors or ministers or people who are helping

people come to you and think that, well, you've got all the answers. And I'm like,

no, I don't. And that's okay. Because it brings so much like more realness to them. It's like,

okay, I don't have the answer, but let's go figure it out together. Or let's find somebody who does.

And so I think that means so much more. And that again, goes back to that humility. Like

you don't have to know all the answers, um, before you're trying to figure out something for somebody.

All right. So I'm a total fixer. Uh, and so, um,

Yeah. Well, those of us in this field, we are, I mean, in this work, you know, we are fixed. That's

kind of our leaning. So I, I, I really encourage my colleagues. I said, get, get, keep yourself in

check and, and, and accountability and fellow ministers, even if that's another church or another

organization, you have to have check-ins. We always say in chaplaincy where chaplains need chaplains.

And so, uh, we have to kind of check in. Same with pastors. Pastors need pastors too.

Is there a line? Does the line change where it's, it's like, um,

I'm trying to think of the right words here. Um, I'm too much invested. I'm too far into this. I need

to hand it off to, to someone else. Like, um, is, is, is there, uh, I guess it's really two questions.

Is there a line where, Hey, at this point, I really need to introduce you to somebody else to,

to move on, uh, as, as pastors, you know, chaplains may have a different answer, but as pastors and

ministers, is there a line? Where is that line? And does that line vary per situation?

Yeah, no, I think it does vary. Um, I also, with the training, I had to take ethics. So there's

certain things I can and cannot do, um, as a mental health coach. And one of them would be like,

if I'm too close to the situation, if it's like family friend, I think just overall,

you again, have to know yourself well enough to know, like, is the situation almost causing you,

like if you've had trauma, is it re-traumatizing you of things that have happened in your life?

Then that's definitely a place. Like if it's going to take you to an unhealthy place,

you need to bring someone else in because first and foremost, if you don't take care of yourself,

like you can't take care of others. Yeah, definitely with chaplaincy, where that is

typically, the thing is to have a self-check first. And my mentor says, she says, Stacy,

that's why it's so important to stay close to Jesus and work in allowing the work of Holy Spirit

in your life so that you have that check and you know when to say yes and when to say yes,

I'm here for you. And, and yet this is bringing some things to the surface for me. So, uh, you would

best be served by someone else who's at a place. So for example, uh, you know,

for example, say my grandma died yesterday and someone calls me and doesn't know about my

grandma dying and saying, and they're experiencing loss or something like that. No, then no, I'm not

going to take that call. I'm going to just say, Hey, you know, this is not to, to, uh, get sympathy

for me, but my grandma died yesterday. I just want to let you know. So that's why I will not be able

to serve you well today and go on to the next person, which also brings to the point. You need

to have trusted resources and allies at, at a drop of a hat. Megan. So Stacy's talking about like,

uh, uh, uh, uh, a wider bench, uh, of resources and people to, to fall, fall back on. Do you feel

like you have that as an, and this is not a shot at Tyler, but like, are there, are there people you

fall back on, um, as a, as a, as a pastor and a, and a minister? Like, do you have people within you,

in your, in, in your team? Like, who do you fall back on when you have questions like that?

Yeah. Um, a big one is the counselor in our building that works out of them. Um, her name

is Joni and having her to be able to talk to about situations, because that's, that's again,

like even as a counselor, mental health, mental health coach, or a pastor who's doing counseling,

you need, you need to have trusted people around you so that like, that's one thing I know they

recommend for therapist counselors is to have a group that they can bounce things off of each

other. Um, cause there are situations that you may have not went through it with someone before,

but it's in front of you. So you've got to figure out what to do next. And so to have people who have

done that super beneficial. Um, but yeah, I, we have a really unique staff too, that we are all like,

we try to be for each other all the time. So if we are in need or struggling, everyone knows that they

can come to another person on staff and we're going to be there for each other. Um, and that's really

important because if you don't have that support, you almost feel like you're isolated and you're out

there on a island on your own. It's never a good place to be, especially when you're trying to care

for a lot of people. Um, I feel that in this digital space, um, sometimes there's a lot of us that are,

that can feel alone because we might be just the point person in our, in, in real life church that

is serving in the digital space. Um, and so that's why it was so important for me to be connected

with TCD, DCN because of that. Um, we needed that space or I needed that space to have

just support, even though we're in totally different ministries, churches,

anything that is, it's everything was different, but the need is the same for support and care.

Yeah. Listening to, uh, to Megan talk about, you know, like getting that support, um,

feeling all alone. I mean, that was, that was me, a lot of my ministry career working for churches

because I mean, when I was, when I was digital pastor, there weren't a lot of digital pastors.

And, um, and so I was viewed as crazy. And so having, having, um, you know, TCD become that support

system, um, for people that are thinking outside of the box and, um, and trying to train and help

others do ministry in these, in these difficult spaces, you know, it was, it was interesting.

I surveyed, um, I probably, this is a couple of years ago. It's about a year. No, it was during

COVID a year and a half ago. Uh, I surveyed maybe a dozen churches, not non-scientific, uh, but just

started talking to them about, um, mental health challenges and, um, in dealing with like people that

are going through trauma. Uh, and it was interesting only, um, uh, maybe two or three, it was a very small

percentage said that they had any contact, any situation with people, uh, that were going through

traumatic situation. And this was like in the middle of COVID, like COVID was still a thing when we did

this. And I, and I was, I was just floored. Um, and, and, and, and to be honest, the more that I got into

it, it was, oh, well, you know, our online ministry is, is just broadcasting church services online and

we may talk with somebody in chat, but we're not, we're not getting, you know, dirty and we're not

being relational, um, with, with people. And, and one of the reasons why, when I wanted to have this

conversation with trauma and, uh, in crisis, that's why I wanted to bring in, you know,

you two, Stacy and Megan, cause I know, I know first capital church anywhere. I know the passion

that they have to get to know people and be invested in, in their lives. You know, I remember when

Tyler was digital pastor, whatever his title, his title was. And he told me, Jeff, it's my job to

know a hundred people. He's now lead pastor of the church, but he has a digital pastors. Like,

it's my job to know a hundred people, uh, intimately that I would not know in physical space.

That's literally my job description. And, uh, to see the, the relational equity, uh, Stacy,

that you guys are putting into, into imagine, um, if you're in somebody's lives at that level,

I mean, I gotta believe that you're able to see, or they're able to have confidence to share, uh,

some of these difficult situations. And, um, and you know, just to be blunt, like if you or your

church isn't experiencing in a lot of these trauma type situations, maybe you're not getting dirty

enough. I don't know what the phrase is here. Maybe, maybe you're not being open enough and

susceptible. What do you think, Stacy? Right. Well, I think it starts with us as the leaders, right?

Yes, there are, uh, you know, when you call it boundaries in place of how much you share,

but it really is, we nurture that kind of environment. Like if I'm not going to ask for

prayer for my family, you know, uh, or situation like then, then no one else is going to really

want to share. You know, we nurture the environment that we, if we're saying that we care about each

other and love one another, it starts with us. It starts with the leaders. And if we don't,

then how to really, really, what kind of expectation can you have of the people in your church? Um,

so it starts with being vulnerable and, um, open, honest. Like I said, there's some boundaries in

place, but, um, yeah, I think that's where it starts. Well, we've talked a lot about, um,

that's where it starts with leadership. We've talked a lot about staffs and pastors.

Um, how, how do we equip volunteers? Uh, maybe someone that doesn't have a lot of training,

um, uh, oversight doesn't have the, uh, the certification is working on biblical counseling.

Like how do we help a normal person maybe start to understand how to recognize and then relate to,

um, people that are going through trauma or, um, or grief or crisis like we're talking about here.

Yeah. Yeah. A, a big piece is training them. Um, that seems like a simple answer, but it's not so

simple because it is such a big complex thing. Um, there is so many avenues of trauma and, but there's

so many people that go through it. And so I think a big piece, if you have someone that either you can

kind of lean on that has that training already that you can learn from them, or even there are

resources out there that if you can have a good training, like I know the AAC does trainings, um,

on trauma-informed care, um, it's a great one just to have, um, you don't have to do all the big

trainings. Like I'm doing the 90 hours, but doing this smaller inform, you know, trauma-informed care

or having a few people do it and then bringing back the knowledge they've learned and being able to

work with those, especially those that are working on, you know, uh, like a care team. Um, we have a

care team here and so getting them the training so that they know how to respond, um, so that they're

not doing that harm of either saying like, well, what's wrong with you? Why are you feeling that

way? Or those are the things that irritate me the most is when somebody's like, well, just pray more

about it, have more faith. And I'm like, no, that like, you don't understand how, you know, the person

probably has prayed about it. They probably have faith about it, but there's sometimes it takes

things going hand in hand of, you know, praying and a person working together, um, to get them to

a healing place. But yeah, just continuing to talk about it, start that conversation. That's the best

way to get it going. At least now that, now that Megan's talked about like, oh yeah, praying more,

all that stuff. I, oh my God. Oh my gosh. I just, it just rates just because my, I really do focus

on grief care. That is like, oh, oh gosh, there's so many, like, aren't you over it yet? Or yes,

you need to pray more. Well, you know, all things work together are good. Oh, God needed another angel.

No, he did not. Like that is, that is not the correct thing to say. Oh, he needed another angel.

You know, when a baby dies. Yeah. That's what I want to hear when my baby dies. So, um, it's just,

it, it's kind of just more, uh, listening more, you know, than talking. And, uh, I know some people

are afraid to say something. They're afraid to say, they're going to say the wrong thing. So I just

encourage people, well, don't say anything. It's fine to say you're there, you're present.

And, um, a term that I, I learned, Megan, I just learned that this last year in 2023 spiritual

bypassing. I literally just learned it. I didn't know. I knew the term, it made sense, the meaning

of it, but I had not heard the term spiritual bypassing literally means you're bypassing all

your feelings, all the things you're experiencing, uh, with, for the sake of being, uh, for the sake of

your spiritual enlightenment. So, uh, it is. So when people ignore their feelings, things are facing

or their grief, they're just trying to just need to get through it. I'm going to rely on my religion,

solely my religious books and scriptures, uh, to get through it. That's it.

And it's become very common. And I guess now, uh, there's a lot of unlearning for

those of us that grew up in a church. I would say it's just, it's something that

that we thought was the right thing to do because that was what, or say, because that's what was said

to us. And so we, in my, in my church group, we talk about that a lot of the unlearning because a lot

of us have church history of, uh, what, what was the right thing to say? Like, oh, we just need to

pray more. I'll pray with you. Oh, you know, read this scripture. All things work together for good.

I mean, all that stupid stuff. I just said scripture is stupid. Sorry, but no, that's not what I'm saying.

Out of context. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, uh, yeah, it just gets,

uh, even when Megan, when you're saying the, I just kind of, I had that activated response in my body.

I'm like, oh, well, spiritual bypassing. That was probably me in the, in my twenties.

Yeah. Like that could probably define my entire twenties. Uh, but that's, that's a,

that's a, uh, another therapy session. I was like, that's the session with Megan. Okay. That's.

Which is interesting, which gets us to the next question. Uh, as pastors and ministers,

how do we protect ourselves from traumatic situations online? Um, how do we,

how do we care for our own mental health? How do we protect ourselves?

There's a term that's been going around, um, and it's been around for a long time,

but I think people are starting to recognize it. Um, actually my friend, Joni, we did a podcast

on this whole thing and it's compassion fatigue and it's literally people in some kind of caregiving

ministry or profession. They'll experience it and it can hit your emotional, your physical, your social,

spiritual, and it's exhaustion of all of them. So it's like you care for people, but you're kind of

numb to it all. So you can basically be, if for instance, like I could be sitting across from

somebody and hearing their story and they could be just sharing it all with me. And I'm sitting there

like, okay, we got 20 minutes left, like not really getting into it to be able to truly care for them

because you've hit a point of you almost can't give anything else. And that's a real big thing with

anyone who does ministry, whether you are on staff at a church or you're a volunteer caring for people

either in person or online. If you don't find ways to take care of yourself, then you're going to get,

you're going to fall right into that and you won't even realize it till you're there. Cause you just

get to a point that you're sitting there listening and you're like, I like, I care, but I don't care

right now. And that's a scary place to be in. And so you want to make sure to try to keep yourself

from that. And there's a lot of different ways you can do that. Um, self-care kind of has a,

maybe a bad rap. Um, people just think like, like take a bath and a bubble bath or something. And

well, that may be great for some baths grossing out. So that's not going to be me, but like exercising,

talking with somebody else, like having those people and community around you is huge. Finding real rest

and not fake rest because we can say we're resting and then be thinking of the hundred things we need to

do. It's not helpful. So finding ways to do that. Um, another way is like celebrating your ministry,

like what you're doing, even though it's the little wins celebrating, bring that joy into what you're

doing. Um, and there's, I mean, there's a whole bunch of other things that you can do. A really

strange one that I tell people all the time is if you have a pet, talk to it. Um, they are the most

confidential people or animals that you'll ever have. So you can talk to that pet and it literally

is like therapy. Um, there's actual like equestrian therapy where you can be with a horse and like

be brushing it, the whole thing, which is really cool how that all works. But honestly, like just

getting it out, getting out, what's bothering you, what's stressing you out, what all these things that

are layered on top of each other because we want to fully care for people. But sometimes you've got

to find again, those boundaries to care so much, but be able to not let it just overwhelm you.

That was really good. I'm laughing because I'm thinking my dog will like literally get up and

leave. She's not going to stick around for me to talk to her. She's like, nah, this is too much.

I'm going to my, I'm going in my house, which is her crate, her safe space, you know, she's like,

but, um, one thing just for me personally, I got connected. I've been in the recovery 12 steps

space since 2009. But this year was the first time or late last year, it was the first time I

got connected into a 12 steps with fellow female pastors and pastors' wives. And that has been a

source of, of just life, uh, for me that we could share, share about the tough stuff in ministry and our

own personal lives. Uh, there's not much filtering, you know, there's not a whole lot of filtering

because we're not, we, we know what each other's lives are like. I've never met, I've met these people

in person because we're all, it's all on zoom and across the nation, but that has been just, um,

so life-giving for me. And I highly recommend not just 12 steps, but I recommend any supports or care

group with fellow ministers, um, not in your, actually that don't even live in your area.

Cause you might meet up with some, or you might meet them and see them out in the, in the wild.

Right. But, and it's not bad. It's just, you just want to, um, yeah, you kind of want to have, uh,

safety and people that you won't bump just happen to bump into. Um, so it's like, oh, you see them

either with your spouse that you just whined and complained about, you know, in yesterday's meeting.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting, Stacey. I'm not going to tell you the name of the people that

are in this text group, but I have a text group, uh, of, of, um, current and former pastors, uh,

that exists on my phone right now. Um, and the chat group is called chat group that will get you fired.

Um, and it's, it's, um, it's like I said, existing and former pastors, um, and, and, and it's the

unfiltered version of, you know, the relationship. Um, and it's funny, like, I don't, I don't see

any of these people in physical space. Um, but you know, when somebody is going through a hard time,

you know, throw it in the text group, get a, get jump on a phone call, a zoom, a FaceTime. Um,

like it's, it's really, it's really interesting to see the, um, I don't even know if it's the right

word, but the cathartic, the, the, um, the, the freedom, the cleansing almost of being able to,

um, to, to express some of that. And so, you know, I, I can fully relate. And so, um,

this is interesting, you know, let's protect our mental health by, um, singing the dogs is what I

heard, uh, by, by brushing horses and, um, and joining a chat group. That's going to get you fired.

Sounds like a perfect plan. You know, don't tell Tyler this, uh, Megan, that,

that won't go well. Eventually. I don't know if this exists out there, but I'd love to have,

you know, uh, husbands of, uh, uh, what do you call it? Uh, minister ministers, you know,

that need their own support group. Oh, there, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of spouse

support groups in, in, in ministry. Believe. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, well, unfortunately it's the, um,

I mean, it can be a, it can be a, a, a hard position, a hard life, especially without healthy

boundaries. And so, um, you know, I, I know there's, there's a lot of, um, a lot of marital

counseling and a lot of things is centered around, um, you know, uh, spouse support in those types

of situations. And actually, you know, I've, I've worked on staffs at churches that were very,

I've worked on staff for churches that couldn't even spell spouse. And then I've worked on staffs

for churches that were so over the top caring and supportive of, of the spouses that were there.

Like, it's, it's really interesting to see how even, even churches have different takes on,

on, on what's involved, uh, on keeping, uh, spouses and families, um,

happy and stable, uh, during, you know, heavy ministry periods. Hey, this was a, this was,

yeah, this was a really interesting conversation to maybe to start it. You know, I, I don't know that

we solved any, any problems here today, but moreover, just brought attention to, uh, to trauma,

uh, to brought attentions to, to crisis, to some of the difficult situations that we doing ministry,

uh, are go through, um, in this situation. And so if you have, uh, I tell you what, let's do this.

If you have questions on this, or you want to start to unpack, uh, what this would look like,

I'm going to give you my, my cell phone number to talk about lack of boundaries. Uh, but you can

text me here, 484-324-8724. No, it's not, I am kidding. It's not myself. It's no,

it is my cell phone. It's one of them. I've got multiple cell phones, but feel free to text me

484-324-8724. And I would love to talk with anybody that's, um, that's going through this,

that's struggling with how to handle or address or care for, um, difficult, uh, situations, um,

with trauma and things like that. Uh, because I think it's important that we take digital ministry

to that level. I think it's important that we move beyond, uh, just doing, um, chat hosting

and, uh, and simple conversations and instead start to make ourselves as pastors, as ministers,

uh, far more accessible and start to really get into the meat, uh, of, of who people are. And,

and trauma is a big part of who people are. Um, you know, little t traumas compile up to make a,

a big trauma issue. And so let's, um, uh, let's resolve to make our digital churches and our

physical churches better, um, in that trauma situation. Awesome. Hey, as, as, uh, we're landing

the plane here, Stacy, uh, any, any closing thoughts? Yeah. You know, I just encourage people to,

to start, just start, do some work of looking online. What are, what are some, uh, uh, resources

to not just awareness, but training for yourself? One thing I will say is that, um, there is the

radio station K love. They, they have a crisis response, uh, team. Um, they do free trainings

and it's online. Well, some of them are in person, some are online, but they are right now and have

been for free. Uh, that's a great place to start. That is not the end all, but that's a great place

to start so that you're just awareness that we talked about compassionate fatigue. Literally

a whole day is, is training and on compassion fatigue, uh, you know, seven hours or whatever

it is. And, and like I said, it's in person or online, but crisis response.org. I think that's

the name of it crisis response care or something like that.org. Um, but that's to help get us equipped,

get the conversation started, what's important. And, um, we want to care for ourselves and care

for others. Well, um, we'll put a, well, I'll, I'll Google crisis response for Caleb. I'll put

a link in the show notes for that. Um, Megan, any, uh, any closing thoughts on your side?

Uh, I mean, Stacy summed it up pretty well. Um, that's honestly what I was thinking of like,

always be a learner, always be learning. Cause there is no way that we can learn everything about

the brain and how it works and how it affects us as a whole person. Um, so always be learning on

just to improve your skills, um, and how you have relationships with people, talking to them,

how to better help other people. But then again, in turn, help yourself and take care of yourself.

Cause that's extremely important. Well, who said earlier, uh, self-care is kind of like a stigma

or a negative connection to it. Yeah. Megan, that was, that was a good call,

self-care is not soul care. Two different things. It can be two different things.

Stacy, you are so much fun. We got to have you back on the podcast. Find you another excuse to

bring you, bring you back. You're this is, this is good stuff. Megan, you're as well. We've got a,

we've got a couple of the podcasts coming up, but Hey, uh, for today, we're going to land the plane for,

uh, for, uh, for Stacy, uh, soul care is not self-care and for Megan. Uh, this is Jeff, uh,

with the church digital. Thanks for jumping on the podcast. Y'all have a good day.

We'll see you next time.