EP284 - Simon Diercks & German Digital Church Planting

connect and encourage, connect like we are doing today,

connect with as many people as possible who are in the same sphere

and encourage each other that is not just your mad idea,

that it's really kingdom-minded working towards one future of the church,

not the only future of the church.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, we've got episode 284 of the Church Digital Podcast.

284.

Simon Dirks is coming up just around the corner.

By the way, the Church Digital Podcast brought to you by Riverside.

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Okay, hey, let's dig in here with my friend Simon Dirks.

Now, I have never—actually, I'm hesitating when I say this.

I'm not even sure we've been in the same state together.

I don't think we've been in the same continent.

I don't know that he's ever been in America, when I've been in America.

Simon Dirks is German.

He probably clicked on the headline.

German church planting.

And so, like, Simon works for a missional organization, but just recently started a church planting organization that's planting digital expressions, exclusively digital expressions of church in Germany.

Yeah, so basically, he's the German version of Jeffrey, you know.

And so, like, it's, you know, grab your—I don't know what they call it.

I started to make some joke, but the jokes would be just so horrible, I'm not even going to do it.

What are the—is it Heineken that's the beer that the Germans drink?

I don't know.

It's a German beer.

Heineken?

Yeah, maybe.

Anyway, the point being is that I met Simon and some of his team and some of his friends in German, honestly, following a hashtag on Twitter for Digital Kirsch, K-I-R-C.

K-I-R-C-H-E.

Actually, it's D-I-G-I-T-A-L-E-K-I-R-C-H-E, which is the equivalent in German to digital church.

Somehow, I got connected to that way pre-COVID.

I'm talking, like, almost a decade ago.

And I've been tracking some of the movements of digital church in Germany over the years.

And it's so exciting for me to see this actually come to fruition, where now we've got a movement starting in Germany, on another continent, in another country, in another language of people that are wanting to reach and disciple and mobilize people using digital tools and digital churches.

Like, I'm just, like, I'm flabbergasted.

We've literally hit another continent here.

And so, Simon, let's get on a podcast and have a conversation, starting to talk about maybe what are some of the lessons you guys are learning in Germany?

What can we, the U.S., learn from that?

What are you actually doing?

What does a German church look like in your context?

What is even some of the physical churches, what are they doing in Germany to better understand and utilize digital?

Remember, remember, we get into this in the podcast, Germany is arguably post-Christian.

Like, U.S. is kind of post-Christian.

We're not ready to admit it yet.

Germany really is a post-Christian culture, a post-Christian environment.

So, what's the value of digital in the post-Christian?

Guys, I hate to tell you this, but I think the U.S. is going to follow suit here sooner than later.

So, hey, enjoy this conversation with my friend Simon Dirks, myself, Jeff, with The Church Digital, in a conversation that I'm calling Planting Digital German Churches.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Well, Jeff, it's a pleasure to be here.

And what can I tell about myself?

Well, I'm a guy from Germany, 42 years old, married with Kerstin, and we've got two little children.

And what I really love is seeing God's kingdom being developed in a digital world.

That's something I've been dreaming about 20 years, and I'm able to participate in different ways these days.

That makes me happy.

I'm also a pastor, I'm a nerd, and I love to do ultra-hiking, something like more than 100 kilometers on just hiking on, hiking on, hiking on.

All right, so so much goodness there.

It's God's kingdom in the digital world.

We'll get there.

So I've got to convert something.

A 10 kilometer is, a 5 kilometer is 3.1 miles.

A 10 kilometer is 6.2.

So this ultra-hiking thing is over 100 kilometers.

So we're talking, you hike over 60 miles.

Like that's a significant distance.

Yeah, the longest thing I did was 171 kilometers, and it took me 38 hours.

So 38 hours just hiking with small breaks in between, but just going on.

And the really great thing about it, people always ask me, why do you do that?

The great thing is, I do this a lot on my Sabbath days when I'm out with Jesus in the woods, so to say.

And the great thing is, when you know that you'll be hiking for 24 or 30 hours, then you don't have to hurry when praying.

You definitely have enough time to finish it up.

Man, I'm sorry.

I did not realize we're going to open this podcast with the spiritualization of walking 100 miles.

My gosh, that's incredible.

Now, when you say hiking, you live in Germany, right?

So, like, is this you're hiking the German Alps?

Is this, like, where are you?

Or is this, you know, I know guys that do this in America, you know, that ultra runners and that.

And it's not Alpine.

It's like, you know, Desert Road.

They do a 100-mile race down here from Miami to Key West, and it's like a 90-mile distance in that.

But, like, that's not what you're – are you, like, mountain climbing for all that?

It differs.

So, in Germany, you've got everything from flat land near the coast up to mountains in the Alpine.

I'm situated in the middle of Germany, and so there we have, well, I would say something like hills, not really mountains.

So, when you hike something like 24 hours, then you'll have perhaps something like 3,000 meters in height difference that you're climbing up and down.

Your discipline blows me away.

I mean, I could – there was a stretch where I used to run, like, half marathons, where I used to do, like, the 13-kilometer runs.

And, by the way, your mathematical skills and understanding of the metric system blows mine away as well.

So, like, I really want to start talking about digital church because at least now I can talk about things that I understand and not, like, the metric system because, you know, America is the one country that decides that, you know, they don't believe in the metric system.

So, well, Americans don't believe in a lot of things, it feels like, in 24.

But that might – we may actually get into that on a side conversation a little bit.

Listen, Simon, I'm super glad to have you in this conversation, and I'm excited to learn more about what digital church looks like and some of the things that you're working on missiologically for the kingdom.

And so, you said it right off the bat, and I want to come back to it, this idea of God's kingdom in the virtual world, God's kingdom in the digital world.

Start to unpack for me a little bit, like, what does that mean?

What are you seeing digitally in Germany?

Well, it's a big question.

So, I would start with my own way.

I've been working as a programmer, informatic nerd for something like 20 years.

I've also been a pastor for eight years in a small church in Germany.

And for the past seven years, I've been working first in public relations for a German mission agency.

And over the time of corona, we had a big change process.

We were thinking a lot of future of global missions in think tanks and so on.

And we also had one think tank regarding digital mission 2030.

So, thinking about what will, how the digitalization and how the digital realms will change the way we do globally mission within the next one or two decades.

And a couple of things, well, jumped out for us and we recognized, okay, there are some areas where we have to start now to be forerunners and to start learning now.

That is what we started last year.

So, we started reaching digital and what I'm seeing at the moment are three or four different ways where digital ministry is growing in our realm.

So, first is digital evangelization, especially on social media.

We got two TikTok missionaries full-time who are working with us and reaching people online, especially on TikTok and Instagram.

We've got a couple of gaming missionaries who are working amongst gamers in German nerd culture communities and multiplying disciple-making gamers there.

The second thing is for one and a half year, we got a digital church plant going on, our church federation.

And I'm happy to be part of it and I thought, okay, this can't be that this is the only digital church plant in Germany.

So, I tried to bring them all together and to my astounding, as far as I know, there are only three digital church plants, purely digital church plants in Germany so far.

But a couple of more to come, a couple of more in planning and I love to bring them together.

And one thing I'm really keen on developing is I've been in talks with a really, really fascinating guy, Stefan Eel, who is a real artificial intelligence specialist and is loving the topic, has been in global business for the last decade.

And for personal reasons, God challenged him where and how he could invest all this knowledge into God's kingdom.

We are together thinking where and how artificial intelligence could shape the way we do evangelization and mission in Germany and beyond.

So, these are the four paths at the moment I'm seeing together with my work.

And I can't imagine so much more, but these are the starter for today.

It's fascinating.

Like, you hit all the headlines right there within the first five minutes of the podcast.

That was beautiful.

Gamers, nerd culture, digital church planting, artificial intelligence.

You didn't say fidgetal, but that's, you know, I'm kidding.

I don't know if fidgetal translates into German.

That may be, we don't like to say fidgetal around here either, although.

I come to fidgetal when we go a little in depth regarding digital church planting, because I recognize there's always some misunderstandings to clear up when we're talking about digital church.

Ah, very interesting.

So, what is the, what's the physical church look like in Germany?

Like, I, you know, there are stories of the decline of the church in London.

You know, I, I just, I constantly hear the stat that Christmas Eve in, in Britain, more people were in a pub than in a church building.

And so it's, you know, I, I feel like, you know, at least in Britain context, it's operating in a post post Christian culture environment.

Do you, is Germany operating that way as well at this point?

Like, what's, what's the state?

Yes, I would say so.

So, what you could generally say, what you can say in common for a whole of Western Europe are a couple of things, especially for Germany, I can say we got a strong heritage, strong spiritual heritage, of course, because of reformation, because of all theology and all missionaries who came out of Germany.

But, um, nowadays, um, I think it was last year when, um, the first time, um, more than 50% of the Germans were not a member of any Christian church.

Um, the Protestant and Catholic churches are declining rapidly, um, and parts of Eastern Germany, so, uh, the part that was a long-time communism after, over decades, are, um, statistically the most atheistic regions of Germany.

Western Europe, so I would say, uh, yes, we are post Christians and Christianity needs to be rediscovered and re-communicated in our country, um, what is, what we share, um, with all of, especially Western Europe is where church is really, um, on the rise of finding new ways.

So, um, so, um, one of the three, uh, central topics, um, that, uh, that were also a focus of the, uh, Lausanne movement, uh, Gathering Europe in 2021 was, um, American churches definitely had a strong rise in Germany.

Also, in our church federation, we recognize that we got something like 500 churches, but we also have, uh, something like, I think, 120, um, 120, um, churches, um, or communities of migrants from, I think, something like 40 or 50 different culture groups, language groups, and so on.

And these are really, really, really growing.

There are people, there are people in Germany who get, um, once, uh, once and again, you get small, uh, revivals, for example, among Iran people, um, from, uh, Iranian people, or, uh, at the moment, partly from people from the Ukraine, who are as refugees here in Germany.

Um, there's a first part, second part is, um, youth movements, especially youth movements connected with, uh, discipleship.

This is also why we are building a couple of discipleship schools, um, over Europe.

And the third thing is, um, uh, inter, uh, is, uh, inter-denominational charismatic youth movements as well.

You get a lot of, uh, uh, these, the, the, the only group that is strongly, um, growing in Germany is, um, among, um, is among, uh, Pentecostal churches.

Some of the evangelical churches as well, but, um, strongest growth is among, uh, Pentecostal churches.

So that would be short overview.

Now, I want to come back to Ukrainians in, in, in a little bit.

It's actually, um, some very good friends of ours, um, were Ukrainian refugees that came to America,

lived actually here in Miami.

They just moved to, to Germany.

Uh, and so it's ironically, like, just, I think Christmas Eve, they, they flew Christmas Eve or Christmas Day.

But, um, talk to me about, like, the, the, it's, it's interesting about the charismatic, uh, Pentecostal movements maybe succeeding.

Um, traditionally in America, and I may be generalizing, and this is a generalization conversation,

but in America, uh, the charismatics, uh, have not had as much, have not seen as much value of, of digital.

Um, at least in context of church, that they would want to use digital as a marketing tool to drive people into a physical building.

But the idea of being church and doing church digitally, discipling somebody digitally, not in physically, like, uh, charismatics,

and, and to be honest, uh, evangel, evangelicals.

And, and as a general rule, the church has been hesitant towards doing something like that.

Um, is that the case in Germany?

What, what, what are you all seeing and, and, and feeling some of this tension around digital?

Yes, uh, I guess it's quite, quite the same here.

I see a lot of churches, um, interested, but not being able or being hesitant about really, um, uh, really getting into digital church ministry.

What happened is that we in Germany had here really, really boost of, um, digital ways of spirituality and digital ways of doing church through Corona as everybody on this globe, I guess.

Um, what the result of this is that, I guess, from, uh, the Protestant Catholic churches up to almost every small church plant, um, they built up the, um, the capabilities to, to do live streams and services.

So, to do analog church life and to stream it in a digital, digital way.

What I almost, what I, what I see only in very few places is original digital, um, uh, ways of, um, spirituality of doing, uh, doing church.

And that was what I pointed at, uh, earlier on that I guess there are a lot of virtual churches.

There are really some that came out strong out of Corona.

We got, for example, ICF, International Christian Fellowship, uh, also in many other, uh, other countries present.

They're really good doing an online church, online church that has microchurches all over Germany, although the biggest, uh, microchurch is, um, situated in southern of Germany.

So, this would, this would be an example where you really got a good hybrid of digital church, but purely digital churches are almost not present.

You've got a lot of, um, um, Christian, uh, what should I say, Christian content.

You've got, especially from the Protestant churches, they're willing to do a lot of money and funding into people who do something that is Christian and that is online and that is, uh, that is, uh, nice.

But a lot of that, what is happening there is not focused missional, um, is, is more, um, it's more, uh, community oriented, social oriented.

What's the, what's the obstacle, what's the, what's the challenge, what's the, what's the issue that you think the average church leader is, is seeing from moving beyond, you know, content to, towards discipleship, moving away from the consumer mindset digitally toward, toward something else.

Like, have you, have, I'm sure from a missiological standpoint, you've wrestled with this, like what, what are you feeling looking at it in Germany?

So, one obstacle I see in many churches is, they have a building, they have bills to pay, and many of the concepts would fade away if they would really switch to digital church.

That is what I love about our little church plant.

We have almost, we need almost no funding.

The only money we are spending at the moment is, uh, for the app, uh, that is our church meeting room, so to say.

Um, that makes it really easy to, to, to start up church.

That's one part.

Second part is that, I think it's really, it's not, not something for everyone.

There are people who won't ever enter a church because of, um, disabilities, because of, um, what they experienced earlier, because of, uh, of, of, of, uh, of a fragile, uh, biography, or because of, uh, what Christians did to their life, or because they're just too skeptical or too far away from, uh,

a place where they can, uh, place where they can, uh, live their spirituality for all of those digital church is a unique way to do it.

But I recognize, for example, my wife would never, uh, would never, uh, would never, ever, um, want to be part of a digital church.

For me, I have to say that the digital church plant I'm part of is more my church than the analog church, which is 200 meters across the street where I'm, I'm leading the children's service, uh, for my own children.

Yeah.

So that's a lot.

I guess you ask for, um, why people don't do it.

Part of, part of it is by, is, uh, because they are still in the mood of Corona is gone.

We have to be all analog.

A lot of pastors really have a theological problem with digital church is not real church.

That's a discussion I always have to do once and again.

So people always start over with digital baptism.

I would say, okay, we don't have to talk about that first.

At first we can talk about digital spirituality, about digital community, about digital discipleship.

And I would say, wow, there's so much possible, uh, regarding that.

And one thing, one point, uh, that's really hindering is, um, the absence of good examples.

And that is what I'm up to.

I want to build networks, um, and empower people who are willing to get up for good examples.

Yeah, that, that's, we, we very much align on that where, you know, we're still trying to find the, the proof of concept.

I think in this where, you know, we've got a lot of churches, at least in America, I can tell you stories of a lot of digital, uh, expressions of church that are reaching people missiologically.

Like there's the mission field is there, uh, in, in, in, it's working, um, monetarily, you know, there's, there's some challenges.

You know, I've, I've heard, uh, some, some digital churches that the pastors were not bivocational and now they're having to go bivocational because they weren't able to get a funding, uh, for, through the, through the digital church, through ties.

And, um, donations have been a challenge and even the church digital, like we've, we've been talking, there's, we're not hiding, you know, the financial constraints and issues that we've been running through.

That's just part of, of doing ministry and digital space.

But more than that, being the, the bleeding edge guy, like they're, Hey, you want to make a lot of money?

Church innovation is not the area that you want to like get your first couple million on.

I'm just like, that's, that's not happening.

Um, not yet.

Uh, it's, it's not, not the bleeding edge.

It's got to get a little more, uh, established before I think it monetizes probably.

Um, it's a really, man, we could, could have a conversation.

You said the words real church.

Um, and I, I feel like I could have a field day on that one too.

Um, you know, it's funny.

I was actually, Simon, I was, I was just telling you the story.

Um, today's Monday, uh, I might, we have recorded this on the 29th of January.

And so I think, I think we're going to play this on next Monday, February 5th or whatever.

And, uh, this morning, um, I actually, uh, was like rushed off to go see the doctor because of some medical issues and some things that were, were going on in, in my life.

I was having a lot of leg pain and it was getting, got worse over the weekend and had a conversation with my wife and, and, you know,

it was either like go to the emergency room or go see a doctor.

And so I went and see a doctor and see, you know, if they thought it was worth the emergency room.

And the doctor looked, thankfully, the doctor looked at it and said, um, Hey, that's great.

Like, um, you're, you're, you do have issues, but you need to go see a specialist and a surgeon and you need these tests before anybody knows what's going on.

So don't waste your time going to the emergency room, but go, you know, let's get these tests scheduled.

And so that's like the process that I'm on.

That's a very bleak response, but it was a very, um, heartfelt, very warming conversation because I mean, I was like, you know, I'm, they're going to chop off my legs this week.

And, and it just, like the pain was literally that bad, but the, the doctor, the doctor said it wasn't, what, it wasn't that bad or wasn't to that point yet.

The reason I bring up this horrific story in a digital church podcast is actually I sent two or three pot texts out, um, a couple, uh, to, uh, some, uh, local guys that are my pastor and another local guy that are supporters and encouragers and, and, uh, prayer partners for me.

Um, and then I sent a couple to, um, to some guys that are not within physical reach there, they live in other areas, but they're part of the ministry and work of what I do.

Hey, like, these are just four guys that are in my life.

Uh, and I was like, Hey, uh, just so you know, I'm going to the doctor.

I'm really worried.

Like, could you use some, some prayer on this?

And the guys that were not around, man, Jeff, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Tell it, tell us how we can help you in this, you know, tell us what we can do.

Glad, glad to do it.

And they're texting me and they're there, you know, throughout the, throughout the day asking how it's going.

As a matter of fact, literally while I'm having this conversation, my text message just rang in my head and another text came in from, from one of them.

But the funny thing was the local guys, the same thing.

Like one of them picked up the phone and actually like prayed for me over the phone and, and asked some questions, you know, in the moment.

Um, another one texted me, Hey, let us know how we can be praying and, and, and what, what, if your family needs anything like the, the response of a digital church, uh, people and physical church people, physical and digital, you know, in that moment played the same way.

And so it's, to me, it's really interesting how it's, Oh, you can't do physical and we can't do digital.

It's gotta be physical, but in, in many of the same ways, it's, it's response is, is driven the same way.

It's, it's asking questions and engaging in conversations via digital, whatever.

So, sorry, that was a tangent.

I just felt like I, I, I wanted sympathy for the fact that I almost felt like I was going to lose my legs today, but that's, that's.

I'm, I'm always, I felt the, the past week as, uh, as, uh, I'm, I'm losing half of my face because I had a lot of, uh, inflammation down my teeth.

Oh gosh.

And you know, that's, that's the kind of thing where you don't sleep for days.

Uh, I, I don't want to compare it to your, uh, legs, but also a lot of people, uh, praying together with me.

Awesome.

What?

No, I should just say that's horrible.

That's not awesome.

I'm, I'm all with you, um, regarding the, the, the point that, um, digital community or the way people pray for you doesn't depend on they live in the same city for the, um, digital church plant.

I'm a part of myself, the beta church, we call it, um, where there's people really all over Germany from all, all different places of Germany, also from other countries, Germans living in other countries.

Um, and what I really love is that digital church can do some things analog church can't.

For example, one of our, uh, one of our, well, should I say members?

Let's say members.

Uh, she moved from the South of Germany to the North of Germany and said, okay, everything will be new, new job, new people, but I got my church with me.

And that is really in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in a time where people are more and more, um, uh, migrating because of job because they have to move along more and more.

That is such a great opportunity.

And also for other people, one of our guys is living in, in the Netherlands.

There is just no German speaking church for him available, but bitter church is his church.

And they have now gotten the first baby.

They will probably move some other place, but the church will always be there.

That is what I love.

No, digital church can't do everything.

It has its deficient parts, but analog church, let's be honest, also is deficient in some ways.

So give me a, give me a two minute spiel.

Like, tell me a little bit of what beta church, uh, is, how it operates, uh, platforms, environments.

Like, give me the, give me the brass tacks.

It's quite easy, actually.

It's a very, very little church plant.

We've been starting through Corona.

Um, there are something like perhaps two, one or two hundred people registered.

Our church, uh, building, so to say is an app.

It's not an app we built all by ourself, but it's a church app that is, uh, from a, uh,

original, original programmer who develops apps for a lot of churches, for all, uh, churches

in our, uh, church, uh, federation.

So, um, we are, we, we got a core team of perhaps two, core and founder team of perhaps

12 people.

We got no, we got a lot of theologians, but we got no one who is, uh, paid by the church

with, it's all just people sharing the time they have.

Um, we got at the moment, uh, church services once a month, Sunday evening at half past eight.

So afterwards you can go to the mood to, to, to watch a movie after the Sunday service on

your couch.

And the heart of beta church, in my thought has to be digital communities because it's

all about communities.

It's about people really getting in real touch in a digital manner.

So, um, we have, uh, one, one, one, one digital community, which started out as, um, sweating

together.

I guess it would, would be the name in English, um, was doing sports digitally, digitally together,

but out of it formed, uh, uh, formed kind of a small group where they're having Bible

discussions.

Um, I'll start tomorrow at, uh, 12.

I start the midday prayer for everybody who's willing to have half an hour praying together

during the, um, during the, uh, uh, midday break.

Um, we got, uh, um, uh, something like Bible studies just for five meetings afterwards and

we're experimenting with it.

Um, we're just finishing our discussions on how to do membership.

We're not finished with questions of what to do with children.

What do we do if someone needs a funeral or, uh, needs a baptism?

Well, it's beta church.

It's, uh, just beta.

We tried, we'd see where we land, but there are people for whom it is really the one church

and what I experienced was really touched my heart is story of Julia.

She was really, um, she had all church behind her, had all deconstructed, uh, her, her Christian

face and she experienced, okay, something is missing, but I can't go back to one of these

churches I've been in.

And beta church was the place for her where she could do her many steps to get in contact

with Jews again.

And so if beta church is only for this one person or for persons like Julia, then it's

worth doing and tried, trying it, uh, short insight, not so much tech.

We, we started on with a lot of tools, but actually it's just the app, uh, zoom sometimes

something like Slido, Mentimeter.

Uh, sometimes we had something like my robots, uh, or did a little online gaming, but actually

we, we, uh, we landed at the lowest entrance level possible.

Almost everyone is capable of doing zoom.

We got the app, which is quite a self-explanatory and most of the other stuff we try to keep

simple.

So no one will be kept from participating in our church because of technical stuff.

I'd love to do something like, like, like spatial IO, you know, which is this VR stuff where

you can meet in digital rooms.

But, uh, if half of the church won't manage it to come in, uh, I think that's not the right,

right thing to do.

Yeah.

Now, Stuart McPherson might want to have a conversation with you about how to make spatial a little easier,

but, uh, we, we can, we can figure that out later.

Um, now you said something about, um, uh, don't sweat or sweat while you work or whatever,

like it, like a target audience, you reaching more athletic and sports crowd.

Um, does, does beta church, does that have a target audience?

Like, have you all moved towards having a targeted approach?

The other ways around, we just started beta church.

And during the process of, um, focusing how our customer journey, so to say, should look

like, we, um, looked at the people who are participating in beta church and, um, focused, found four

focus groups.

We see, we, uh, uh, did personas on them and there's something like, uh, something like, uh,

the, uh, I cannot, I don't know how to translate in English.

So, it would something like, um, uh, a woman who has, um, experienced, um, has experienced,

um, has experienced, uh, bad things in churches or has, uh, suffered under...

He's been burned, been hurt by the church.

Yeah, like that.

Who's really distanced to church, but still seeks Christian, uh, uh, community.

This would be one.

One, one person would be a person which, because of, uh, personal circumstances, because of working

hours because of, um, uh, of, of health issues, of family at home, of parents at home, children

at home, wouldn't be able to participate in a regular German, uh, regular church life.

That would be one.

Then we would, um, have one of our personas, um, going to digital nomads, people, German people

working in places where there's just no Christian community available.

And, uh, and one more, I don't get it, uh, got it, uh, present.

So we got these four persona where we can say, okay, this, these are part of the target audience

we are seeing.

Now, church leaders in Germany may be, um, not comfortable with a digital ecclesiology,

not comfortable with, with a church operating digital.

Hey, how do you do baptism?

What does communion look like?

Uh, family generational.

Like there's, there's still some questions that, that are out there with a digital expression

of a church.

It's a new concept.

You know, give, give us, give us a couple of years to, you know, get it figured out.

Um, are, are people, are de-churched people, unchurched people, like are, are, is German culture,

are they open to a digital expression of a church?

Like, have you noticed any, uh, hesitancy?

Are they, the new people that come in, are they open and receptive?

What's their response to the idea of, of a church digital?

The people attending the church, they, I guess they're very open to it and they have no, uh,

no offense against the idea of doing church digital because part of the people we are reaching

are really people who are searching for something, who have been able to, uh, believe in, believe

in Christ and trying to, to get their faith back.

And one of the most interesting target audiences from my perspective would be those, um, who are

on the way to believing, yeah?

So, um, I, I told about our, our, uh, social media missionaries and on the one where you got a lot,

lot of possibilities of, of good digital content or digital Christian influences or digital gamer

communities where people can get in contact and have first, um, digital encounter with Christ.

Um, and the question is, where do you go from that on?

So I would say what, what people need from there on is, is getting in touch with, with someone, um,

who can get the next step with them.

They need to need, uh, any kind of a community where can, where they can be part of it.

They need a place where to do discipleship.

And I suppose at some day, some part, they will need a church.

And for many of them who will travel a long way before doing their decision for Christ,

I suppose that a digital church would be the perfect place to have to stay first.

And why not afterwards have something like an analog, um, cell group in your town?

Or because you have children switch over to an analog church in your town or whatever.

I would say there's, uh, enough people who would in other ways not participate.

So I see some pastors who are saying, who always start over with, uh, with baptism,

with, um, some also with Lord's Supper or with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with what, what happens

when someone dies or was it with opposite children?

And I got no finished answers for that.

I don't think that digital church must have them.

I think digital church needs to find their analog connect points.

Yeah, no, no.

I think, I think that's good.

Like a, um, in 2024, there's value in community and now digital community does exist, um, where

you, you know, get together, you know, even on a discord or a zoom call or, you know, mighty

networks is what we use a lot or Facebook groups.

Like there's, there's plenty of, of value towards community.

And in fact, if your content is not driving to get people connected into a community, then

you're effectively not reaching, um, a lot of the people that are available, like a consumer

ideology.

That's, that's like boomers and, um, and, and, and millennials.

That's not that you're Gen X.

I should say the Gen Z and Gen A, like their, their community, they're engaging, they're

having conversations, they're, they're embracing this idea of digital community, uh, and, but

digital community in itself has, has, let me, let's be honest, it has limitations.

Now, the younger you are, the less those limitations play a part.

Um, that being said, like even the guys who play video games every Friday night, every

nights, four nights, five nights a week, they still like to hang out together every once

in a while at, at a, at a ball game.

They still like to, to get together in physical space.

Like there's, there's an opportunity to, you know, the line that I always say, Simon, in

this is it's not, um, it's not that digital churches don't do things physically.

It's that they're not driven to do it every day, every week.

Um, and that there's, I would suggest there's more intentionality around when it happens.

You know, I can tell you stories of virtual reality churches that, that meet in physical

space and people literally fly from across the country, from across the planet to come

over into, uh, to, to San Francisco and to Northern California to get together for this

virtual reality churches meetup.

Um, just recently, all the gamer church guys got together, uh, a couple months ago down

in, uh, in, uh, Dallas, Texas area.

Like there, there's times where people come together in physical for community.

Um, but I think there's a high level of appreciation for, for when that happens.

And the idea of what you're describing, uh, having a church that grows micro churches that,

that sells, I think you called them cell, cell groups with language doesn't matter.

You're literally, you're speaking German.

Uh, but the idea is, is that like that, uh, you know, Angela Craig was doing that through

Pursuit Church live pre COVID was having huge success, uh, with, with that internationally.

I know, I believe Dr. John's doing some of that now with, uh, with, uh, uh, hope, hope.

Oh my gosh.

You just blanked on Dr. John's church.

Uh, Dr. John Harris, hope like his hearts, like his hearts, like his church.

And so Dr. John, you're listening.

I'm sorry.

Uh, my thought it's been, it's, we need to catch up, sir.

It's been a minute since we've talked, but, um, man, it's, it's the challenges that come.

We don't run from.

We, we, we figure out how, um, how to, how to overcome them.

Like the, even the communion and the baptism.

I mean, we can talk about ways to overcome that.

Um, that's the challenge of, of baptism and what we're seeing.

Uh, some, some people are open to listening and some, to be honest, are not open to hearing.

And, uh, at least that's, that's the challenge that I'm facing here in America is, um, people

that are very adamant of, of the right way to do church.

And if, if we're honest, I'm not even sure their opinion of the right way to do

church isn't, is biblical.

Like they're, they're not pulling it from a biblical mandate as much as it is their opinions

and how they are more often than not, how they grew up.

Like it's what church was for them as a child when it was ingrained.

And those characteristics, biblical or extra biblical become the, the, their ideological

version of church.

So I think we get one advantage here in Germany thinking about what you mentioned.

One advantage is, uh, the size of our country.

So for, to give you, give you an idea, I live in the middle, middle of Germany.

So I've got the possibility to drive to every part of Germany without, uh, within one day.

So yesterday I've been to the deepest East of Germany for a Sunday sermon.

Um, today, uh, I'm back.

And that is really advantage because what you said for Bitter Church also, after one year

we had an analog meeting.

So all Bitter Church come, did came together in the middle of Germany and was fascinating

for me.

Most of the people I recognize the first time they, um, uh, existed with, with legs and, uh,

with, with a backside because I only had them on zoom, but coming together, it was just

like, okay, this is church.

This is church, there's nothing missing.

The people I see analog the first time, they are my church.

So that was really fascinating for me.

And I think that is regarding, uh, um, in, in comparison to, uh, the size of the youth,

youth, the U S that's a real opportunity to Germany to do digital church and to be able

to meet the other, uh, people in analog ways.

So for example, regarding baptism, why not say we're a digital church, we're connected to

many other churches.

So if someone comes to faith and want to, we get baptized, okay, who is in this region?

Five people get together, someone, uh, someone who's, uh, doing pastoral work in that region

is getting there.

Let's pipe, let's baptize him.

For example, not a final answer, but a possibility.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

And the questions of, uh, of, uh, ecclesiological, uh, ecclesiological, um, um, issues of digital

church.

Well, um, I would say if you always keep, keep on discussing, if it is perfectly right, then

you will never, um, start trying new ways of church.

And we're in a time where we need to try new versions of church and not all will be right,

but, uh, some will shape the future of a church.

Are you talking to other countries or do you know people in other areas of Europe that

are, that are thinking this way and that, that are experimenting?

Like what, what does the rest of Europe look like?

Can't say for the rest of Europe.

I'm at, um, for the past years, I've been, uh, heading out to connect as, uh, much as

possible.

That's my topic in the mission agency here in Germany.

So I love to see ways of digital mission growing throughout the world.

Lausanne movement is a big help.

Digital church network is a big help.

Indigitus is, Indigitus, especially in Asia is very, uh, fascinating.

to get in touch with a lot of people.

Um, there are some digital church, um, plants in Eastern Europe, partly I have been in contact

with, um, but, uh, actually it's not so much.

I see some contacts growing.

I'm really looking forward, especially at the, uh, Lausanne, uh, global gathering in

Seoul in this September.

I'm really looking forward to meeting a lot of people.

I only got to know, uh, digitally so far, analog for at least once in my life.

It would be a great opportunity.

Uh, I guess not.

I guess I should.

Yeah, yeah, you should.

I'll make, I'll make a connection.

He's with, um, he's with crew global and, uh, yeah, it's, uh, he's doing, um, you know,

it's interesting, you know, there's a couple of people that more than a couple, but there's

some people internationally that I'm, I'm silently recruiting and, and kind of gently pushing,

trying to be like, Hey, why don't you like start to actually launch some things digitally

or start to resource or, you know, what would, what would, how can we help you like do this

in your context?

Um, you know, the church digital formerly digital church network, like, you know, I, I don't

know anything about Germany.

Uh, and so the, the fact that, you know, Jeff go do help plant digital churches in Germany.

I would be horrible at that.

Now you doing that is awesome.

And so how can I help you do that?

Let's, let's talk about that.

Actually, I had a woman, um, approach me about launching a, uh, metaverse, a virtual reality

church network, um, in South Africa.

Like they wanted me to be the face of a virtual reality church network in South Africa.

And just, I had the honor of telling her, I was like, that is the stupidest idea on the

planet.

Like, I don't know anything about South Africa.

So I, like the context would be horrible.

Now, you know, a lot more about South Africa than I do.

So how can I help you be the face of, of, of, uh, and, and so we're actually, you know,

in process and working with her now and training and equipping her towards that.

But Kajus is another one of these guys that, that I'm just like, Ooh, we gotta, we gotta,

we gotta figure out how to, how to get him moving in, in Eastern Europe.

Uh, man, how can, how can we, how, how can the church digital, how can we help you, uh,

start more churches in Germany?

Well, I guess that's a lot.

Um, the church digital is already doing for me.

It is a lot of listen and learn, um, see people from other places of the world.

So my first contact was a digital, uh, church summit, I guess I was in the Midwest church

summit.

So really seeing people already doing things and, uh, experiencing how, how they are doing

that, how they are doing, uh, thinking theology, how they are practicing that.

Second thing is connected and encourage, connect like we are doing today.

Connect with as many people as possible who are in the same sphere and encourage each other.

That is not just your, your, your mad idea that it's really kingdom minded working, um, towards

one future of the church, not the only future of the church.

And the third thing, third thing would be to share and to multiply, share concepts we have.

We, they always, always, uh, already, uh, always need, uh, contextualization.

So I love you bless concept, but the best concept needs contextualization to be used in Germany,

for example, and then multiply, share the good things.

Like, like Paul said, uh, test everything, take out the good things of it.

And that bring them, bring them into multiplication.

And the most important thing, keep praying for each other.

That is what I'm really experiencing that is needed, especially for those who are forerunners.

They need people standing behind them and praying for them, like the guys who've been praying

for you today, Jeff.

Awesome, man.

I, I so appreciate that.

Uh, it's, it's funny.

The, the first time that I publicly used the, the bless concept for, for digital missions,

uh, actually I was speaking, uh, for your, for your deal, uh, Simon, it was, uh, I don't,

I don't, I don't, mission alliance.

It was Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, yeah.

And, and, and so, uh, I woke up at like three in the morning.

To go speak at this thing.

And, uh, I was like, Oh, you know what I'll it's new material.

I'll give it a shot.

Let's see if it works.

And, uh, I literally, I was like five minutes before I showed up in, in this thing online

to speak is 3:30 in the morning Eastern.

And, um, I, I, I literally, as I showed up, I realized bless is an English word.

The contextualization of this isn't going to work in Germany, Jeff, you're an idiot.

And so like quickly, I'm in the chat.

Uh, I don't think this is going to work.

You may need to help me contextualize this cause I'm, I'm going to like crash and burn

here in about 10 minutes.

Um, but I, listen, I, I, I know Layton, you know, you and I have had a relationship for

a year, um, or so digging into things and, and, and exploring this digitally.

Um, I, this may be the first time or maybe, maybe two or three times we've, we've jumped

on a zoom call or something, but very physical, very few, uh, visual.

Um, and I don't think we've ever been in the same room, right?

You've not, we've not connected physically at all.

Hmm.

No, not yet.

Um, but what's, uh, yeah, we'll save it for Korea.

We'll, we'll just fly to the other half of the planet to get that.

But the, um, to me, like Layton mentioned to me, uh, Layton's our, our relationships guy

with the church digital.

Um, and, and it was funny.

He said to me, he says, Hey, Simon's planning a digital church, um, starting like a digital

church network in Germany.

Um, and, uh, and, and, and Layton's like, you know, should we, should we be helping him?

And I was like, heck yes.

Yeah.

Like, you know, that's why, why are we even asking the question?

The answer is already yes.

Um, you know, we, we started the church digital, uh, to help crazy people in America and draw

attention to what they were doing and Germany and Eastern Europe.

And we're doing a lot of work, it feels like in Africa, a lot of interest down there.

Um, Philippines is our, is in our top three right now, actually content, uh, consuming,

uh, which is crazy.

Like there are people in the Philippines that are processing the stuff that we're talking

about with digital church.

And so, uh, you know, for you, all of you that are out there, whether you're, you know,

domestic on my side of the planet or on the other side of the planet, the ideas of what

we're talking about here and contextualizing this, this idea and this concept for the kingdom,

uh, to reach the people that, that are, uh, de-churched and unchurched that have given

up on the building or will never go to the building.

Um, why not take the effort to reach a different type of person, uh, doing the things that, that

Simon's describing, uh, by following a biblical model that may not align to the opinions of

today, which are opinions and not necessarily a biblical mandate.

And so listen, um, I, I want to thank you all for listening to Simon.

I want to thank you for this podcast.

This podcast has been, uh, a year in the making.

Like we have, we have had the hardest time aligning, uh, on time zone timelines and things

like that.

And honestly, like there are two things I don't understand in life, the metric system and time

zones.

And so having a conversation with you has been very hard because it challenged the time

zone aspect a lot.

Uh, but I'm glad we finally did it.

And we're going to have more of these because I want to keep up with what's going on with,

uh, with this experiment of digital churches in Germany.

Uh, cause that's, that's hugely exciting to me.

And I'm appreciative of the fact it's like nine, 10 o'clock at night and you're doing this

podcast interview with me on a, on a Monday night, which is awesome too.

So as, as we're landing the plane here, um, any, any closing thoughts?

Well, I think I'd like to point out, thank you very much for the church digital, for giving

us a digital home for our, uh, German digital church plant network.

We call it a cloud Kirche, which means a cloud church, so to say.

So if any German, any German speaking people out there, out there who want to go onto church,

uh, church planting, join the, join the fam, join the digital church and come to our, uh,

channel, um, cloud Kirche, it would be great to get in contact with all of you.

And thank you very much, Jeff, you, uh, actually are the, uh, the, the starting point why we

as a German mission agency today have a region, not only geographical, but region digital.

Because during the time we were on our, uh, uh, think tanks, thinking new things and so on,

I, uh, stumbled across, uh, the church, the digital church network and the, uh, digital

church summit.

And that was really an ignition.

So thank you for what you, uh, brought up here in Germany.

Oh, um, um, I, I did not realize that.

So I'm, I'm honored and flattered by that.

Thank you.

Um, there are other idiots too in the world that, that, that are,

we're talking about, this is not just me.

So let's, let's give some of them credit.

Yeah.

Let's get some more idiots talk.

And, uh, let's get some more idiots out there doing this as well.

Like it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, 2024 is the year of the crazies.

I firmly do believe it.

23.

Um, to be honest, there was some backlash against the innovators.

Like you, you, we can talk about Elon Musk and Tesla and Twitter and all that.

And yes, you're the guys wacko at some level, but he's also an innovator.

Uh, there was a lot of backlash against blockchain and crypto, AR, VR kind of went down.

I, you know, I, I feel it tipping a little bit here in 24.

Um, even in church space, there's some, some stats that I'm not allowed to say publicly yet.

I cannot wait to say them, uh, because it, to me, it's really exciting.

And it tells the story of how the church, uh, today in 24 is hungry to reach different people.

And, or, and I believe are going to be reengaging more in digital and virtual spaces.

And so, uh, the best is yet to come, man.

That's a horrible pun in on a podcast, but we're going to land the plane there.

We're going to call it a day.

Hey, for, uh, for Simon, this is Jeff with the church digital.

Thanks for jumping on this podcast and we'll see you next time on the show.

Y'all have a good day.