EP292 - DK Hammonds and the State of the African American Digital Church

You need to have some faith that God can bring you the resources that you need to get the

things that you need to go into the highways and byways of the pilgrimage to come.

You need to be called to digital ministry.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours

learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, you know what?

It just took us five minutes.

First time we've done this publicly.

And so glad we can get everybody together.

We lost a couple people in the process.

But we've got Simon is from Germany.

He runs Beta Church.

And actually, Simon's actually running a digital church network.

Runs in Germany a network of digital churches without churches, without buildings, and is resourcing up there.

Simon works for Simon.

I'm blanking on the organization.

I can never remember which missional organization it is.

And so I apologize for that.

Whitebeard is, like I said, ZZ Top.

And so, but he lives in Tampa and Alliance.

Yeah, excuse me, Alliance Missions.

Whitebeard is probably the most radical within the Church Digital.

Some of, like, his ideas and some of the stuff that he's doing is incredible.

A man of prayer.

Really intriguing some of his ideas.

And he walks around the art district in Tampa called Ybor City wearing a monk outfit and giving away water and praying for people, like, on the street.

Incredible stuff.

And Melanie does a lot of stuff with Digital Church Flatcaps, one of our leaders as well.

So, anyway, it's going to be an interesting conversation here.

I'm joined by DK.

By the way, before we get going, DK, what does DK stand for?

Am I allowed to know that?

Yeah, man.

My first name is actually, my first name is Derek.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're good.

You're good.

First name is Derek.

My middle name, you cannot know.

But Derek Hammonds is my name.

Middle name starts with a K.

You're welcome to guess.

I'll tell you if you're right or wrong.

That could be a conversation for the chat for later.

But, yeah, DK Hammonds, it's easy to go by.

And if it's somebody uniquely named Derek in another place, there's very few people named DK.

So, that's what makes it sense of that.

Interesting.

Yeah, so you did DK to be, like, you know, unique because there's all sorts of Derrecks all over the place.

Absolutely.

There was a season where I was actually JD for the same reason because Jeff Reads are, like, dude, I've won Super Bowls.

I've won the World Series.

I did, you know, unfortunately, if you Google me, there's, like,

a Jeff Reed that's done the stuff with kids you're not allowed to do with kids.

And so, like, you know, trying to find the Jeff Reads out there, it was very easy to get kind of overwhelmed and lost in the shuffle.

But DK, man, that's smart.

So, where do you live, DK?

I'm currently a resident here in Dallas, Texas.

I'm in a suburb called Glen Heights.

That's where I live.

But Dallas is home.

Awesome.

I mean, I didn't put that together either.

I was stuck in Dallas March.

Man, you'll appreciate this.

I was in Allen, Texas, speaking at a Push Pay Resi event.

Yeah.

And I, so my flight was supposed to leave Thursday afternoon.

I didn't actually leave Dallas until Saturday night.

I was literally grounded in Dallas for two extra days because of a thunderstorm coming in.

That was so bad, it literally shut down DFW Airport for two days.

And when I could finally get off the ground, they flew me to Austin.

I was actually stuck in Austin because there was another storm front that blew through that basically cut off the entire, like, seaboard.

And so it was, it was nuts.

I was, literally, I was like, I was in a hotel bar working all day Friday and Saturday on my laptop just drinking bottomless Diet Cokes trying to pass the time cheaply because there was, like, nothing else for me to do.

Yeah, it did.

Cool.

And so, man, DK, maybe share with us a little, I'm going to feel like I'm going to call you Derek and I'll slip off.

It's up here.

That's fine.

But DK, yeah, tell us a little bit about, about yourself and your ministry.

Yeah, man, I've been, well, my ministry is kind of connected in two ways, right?

By, by trade, I'm a trained, licensed, ordained pastor, minister.

And that's been almost 17 years of that, that ministry.

I work my way through the ranks of youth ministry, campus, pastor, all the things you can think of in church that you can do.

I've done it.

Trumps, Ursa, done that.

And then some years ago, recently, because I've been in a tech space when I wasn't preaching.

So tech has always been a part of my life for the bulk of my adult life.

And so when I say tech space, we're talking about startups, startup companies.

I've been helping startup companies move through the series A's and series B's and getting funded angel investors.

They'll bring somebody like me in as their tech guy to kind of help them forge the organization along.

So we're talking about major projects across states, company lines, things of that nature, and supporting people.

And then from there, I've always been in this place where I couldn't find a place in church to use that skill set.

I could find a place in the marketplace, but never in my church context.

So that had made me, I had to go look elsewhere.

And then recently, NBC City was a church that I was at.

I'm working for myself as a contractor now.

But, you know, that was one of the places that I worked at as a contractor, as an employee, being their IT and systems manager.

And so it gave me an opportunity to kind of converge these two worlds together and use the biblical approach to a tech because there is one and using the tech approach to ministry because there should be one.

And in most churches, at least that I've been encountered, they didn't have a person like that.

So it gave me an opportunity to do that.

So that's kind of a little bit about me.

I'm a husband of one father of four.

And I love my wife.

She just had a birthday yesterday.

And so that's who I am and how I've gotten here.

Awesome.

Well, happy birthday to the wife.

Happy.

Was it happy wife, happy life.

And so sometimes I'm sure she really appreciates.

Yeah, I'm sure she really appreciates the husband of one.

That's right.

You know, to, you know, adding, complexing that relationship, maybe not the wisest, wisest choice, especially in ministry.

But well done.

So, you know, you may know DK, a lot of our podcast listeners here with TCD Podcasts are also probably engaging over with Social Media Church, which DK is over now with Nils and with Aaron Magnuson, right?

He's the other voice over there.

And so, you know, Nils has been here on the podcast several times.

And we've worked with Aaron in the background on some projects and with some other vendors and things.

And so definitely excited here to include DK in.

And so I've been hanging out with him a little bit here with the live podcast doing on Discord.

Exciting to see him start to interact here as we're building out the Discord community.

Brand new for us, DK.

Like we're maybe a week in, maybe two weeks.

I think the website, we just launched a new website.

I noticed that was fire.

I love that site.

Yeah.

And it was funny.

Like the leadership team was like, hey, now that we're launching a new website, let's go to Discord.

And I was like, I don't know.

Let's talk about the timing on that.

And I got voted down, like severely voted down.

Like when everybody else in the room is like, Discord, Discord, Discord, and I'm the only person saying no.

It's like, okay, we're going to Discord.

So definitely excited to see that.

Okay.

Hey, so here with this conversation, we want to talk about, you know what?

African-American churches.

And so let me be the purple elephant in the room or whatever it is.

And if you're watching us on Discord or you know anything about me, I am a bald white man currently wearing a yellow trucker hat with a beard.

And, you know, I used to have like a decent sized goatee before I decided to, you know, clean up my life a little bit.

Yeah.

So like, you know, I'm not the, DK, I'm not the guy that probably, you know, needs to talk about race.

I want to be the guy that learns about race.

And so I'm very much wanting to position myself as the learner in this conversation.

And I almost want to put this disclaimer up at the front that I'm a little afraid to like almost have some of these conversations publicly and publicly recorded.

We were joking offline about how, you know, maybe I would say something stupid and then this video would go viral because like I would be the stupid, ignorant white man saying something dumb.

And there's a very good chance that's going to happen.

Like, and that's not me intentionally doing it.

It's just, I'm, I'm kind of stupid.

To be honest, you know, this is my disclaimer.

I live in Miami, Florida.

Like, it's where race is, you know, we're 40% Hispanic, we're 30% white, and we're 30% African American.

Like, I mean, I've got, I've got friends here in Miami that are a mix between all three demographics.

Like, like a white person marries a black Cuban.

And what, what are the kids?

Like, it's, it's like race almost doesn't exist anymore.

And that's, that's not the norm, especially when we're looking at America.

And so while I'm, you know, while I'm like, is race really still a problem in this country?

Then, you know, I see everything else that's happening in this country.

And I remember, hey, you know what?

Miami is like this, you know, it's the diamond.

Not just Miami.

So to speak.

Florida.

Maybe, you know, some of the, no, no, no, I'm not even going to get there.

Because that would be some of the stupid stuff that I could say answering that question.

But yeah, Florida, Florida definitely is, is, leans a little more race friendly.

Let's just call it that way.

All right.

I at least am looking forward to the conversation here with DK and getting to ask some questions.

Yes.

And we're not running from anything.

Let's get to it.

I'm not, I'm not easily offended.

If something offends me, I'm going to say, hey, man.

All right.

And we keep going.

Awesome.

All good.

All right.

Hey, so, so let's, let's get in here.

You know, I, so I want to open up with this.

Like I, once again, I told you, like I'm, I'm, I'm very much a, uh, where there's a blended

society down here in Miami.

Like the church that I went to was, was very mixed.

Um, and, uh, I heard there were, we brought in a speaker and for life of me, I don't remember

who this guy is.

I knew the name, but it didn't like, it didn't stick with me.

And, uh, this guy from Chicago came in to speak on race and, uh, and he shared this vantage

point that, um, that really church, like he was for race.

He was advocating for the segregation of churches, like having African-American churches, having

white churches, having Hispanic churches, that that was actually the thing to properly do

within churches so that churches can be, uh, so that people can worship in their context, worship

within their, their demographics, worship within their style.

Now there's definitely some things within African-American church, like true African-American

church that isn't done by the white church.

Hispanic churches have far different styles and, and, you know, but a lot of what, what I'm,

I'm used to seems to be more blended.

And actually, you know, my, my ministry story, we've tried to create blended approaches, although

sometimes like it was a bunch of white people and, you know, the token Asian guy that was

just like in the neighborhood.

Um, I mean, I would love your take, like, is, is, is it, is it better for us to be, I'm using

the word segregated, that man, I'd be right, separated in, or is it better to be blended?

Like when, when you look at, at church, physical church in race, what, what are you more comfortable

with?

Well, I'll be honest with you, uh, because I've, I've worked in both contexts and I've served

in both contexts and while I would say African-Americans would love a blended approach.

What happens is when they go into said spaces, the spaces aren't safe for them in terms of

context.

And so they have to find places where they can be free to worship in the style by which they

are accustomed to, or that feels natural to them and then go there.

Now, with that being said, there are some people who see it in a very blended format.

So it's not, it's to me, it's not a one size fits all to answer the question direct.

Uh, it is, what is your preference?

What do you feel led to do?

There are some of us who feel led where I need to be in a predominant church or predominant

race church.

Then that's where you want to go.

Cool.

Uh, and sometimes it just happens that way.

You don't even, you're not even paying attention to it.

It just naturally happens that way.

And then other times it is, this is what I need for the sake of my own personal safety.

This is what I am used to.

And this is what I'm going to choose based upon that.

And so I would be honest, like, especially like in Dallas, we're starting to see the convergence

of, um, the multi-ethnic, multi-generational churches, um, that have the various race makeup

within them.

But the, the, the, the, the thin line between that is, it is, is going to lean to its dominant

and it does it unintentionally sometimes, as you mentioned, but it leans to its dominant.

And so we always need to be trying to be centered so that we can be inclusive of everyone.

So if a person does decide that they want to go to a black church, cool, let's, let's honor

that.

At least they're going to church.

If a person says they want to go to a blended church, cool, let's honor that.

And then let's move forward.

Cause I think, I think I feel, and I believe that, um, we're probably better together as

the Bible has already told us to be, but sometimes we're not safer together and that doesn't make

us better.

Hmm.

That's interesting.

So you're in Texas, I mean, Dallas.

Yeah.

I mean, Dallas is, is the home of like the cowboy church.

Um, and I'm not sure if that's Dallas cowboys or just, you know, cowboys and Indians, cowboys.

Can I say Indians?

I don't know, but cowboys church.

Um, like, and, and so, uh, how do you, like, is your church, is your church African-American?

Is, is it blended?

Like where do you specifically worship?

Can I ask?

So it's blended, right?

And now when you get into the African-Americans, I think you're only talking about one sect of

people.

Now we have to also include Senegalese and Congolese and African and Tanzanian people that

are equally a part of that diaspora.

They don't necessarily subscribe to the construct of African-American.

Right.

And so you have them included into that because on that side of town or North side, they actually

are Christians, devout Christians, and they want to go to church.

And so they go to church at these places.

They may present as African-American, but if you hear their accent, you'll, you'll, you'll

find out very clearly they are not African-American.

They are from somewhere else.

And just like I've seen, um, white presenting South Americans, uh, I mean, not South Americans,

South Africans, um, and they are going to African-American churches.

And so I've seen the blended, blended experience, and I would love to be a part of that, to be

a part of a place that is both safe and inclusive of everyone.

The problem is that doesn't happen, not intentionally.

And so let, let, let me give you a scenario.

So when we're talking about inclusive, we're talking about the staff looks like me.

Or resembles parts of me.

There are sermons that are directed to my issues, ills, and situations in my community, just

like there are sermons directed to your community.

So there's an intentionality behind that.

And a lot of pastors try to veer away from that because their focus is to try to be more

biblical and not communal.

And so their messaging shows up that way.

Okay.

So then, you know, who on, on staff represents you, uh, can speak to you.

Um, you know, maybe, um, do you like, you know, I know, um, you know, lamenting, uh, is,

is a big part of African-American churches.

Um, you know, black gospel choirs dancing on stage is, is a big part.

Um, like, say more about lamenting.

What, what do you mean lamenting?

This is good, man.

I'm having fun.

What do you mean?

No, like it's, um, that, well, maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but, but, you know, the,

the lament, like the, the lament, the, the, the holding to reading scripture together, um,

the lamenting, the, the woes where we've come from, some of the, the, the disparity of,

of the historical aspect, um, you know, we did a, uh, like a, my, maybe some of my time

at Stadia, but we were very, uh, very big.

We spent a lot of time in COVID actually really getting into the African-American, um, church.

Like what is, what do, what do they do?

Cause basically, um, and we were accused, Stadia was accused of basically trying to make,

trying to whitewash everything with the planters.

We were measuring the, the, the planters.

We're measuring the effectiveness of these churches through, uh, a white lens through,

Hey, are they, you know, can they do a three song, uh, worship set?

Can they, can they preach a, a, a white sermon?

And so like, it was, everything was, was the perception was, was, it was all through that

lens.

Yeah.

And so we had to do like this, this really deep dive organizationally.

What is, what does an African-American church look like?

What is, what does a Hispanic church look like?

What are the characteristics?

What are the people, what are the people looking for?

How are they discipled?

How is that different than a physical church?

And so we really, um, delved into the, the aspects of it.

This is where, you know, I started to discover things like African-American churches really

are not typically aligned much to technology near to the level that white churches are.

And white churches are years behind, like, you know, culturally where, where corporations

are.

Now it's interesting.

Hispanic churches actually lean more towards technology if they have it available.

Yeah.

Um, but a lot of them can't afford it.

They want it, but they can't afford it.

Whereas African-American churches, you know, if it almost, it felt like pre COVID, like they

were hands off.

They didn't want anything to do with it because like the technology really wasn't, and maybe

I'm overstating, but it's, it was more about being in the room, in the event, seeing the

choir, hearing them sing, seeing the performance value, seeing the pastor.

Like it was much more of a, a communal event really than what even the white church was

at the high level that they considered it.

Yeah, brother.

Like, I think, I think for, I think you, the, the last statement you mentioned, and I love

what white beard is saying in the chat, try to find a good Eastern movie that is for black,

for a black church.

It doesn't really exist.

That's powerful statement.

That's a real statement.

Uh, cause I hadn't found one myself, but I think the last statement that you mentioned

about community for our people, and I would say, and I'm, I'm including anybody that, that

is for justice for everybody, for our people, it is about community and we, the understanding

for some leaders is digital divide impacts community.

And we're absolutely terrified of digital divide.

We don't know enough about it.

There isn't much information.

So shout out to people like Brianna Parker, who is really doing the work in this area to

give us numbers about African-American churches and people.

Um, but there's not really, uh, and I even say, um, Barner group is doing a, they're attempting

to do a better job at representing that.

So I want to make sure I make that clear too.

Um, so just having that information is really, really important.

And some pastors, when COVID hit, were really terrified about how to pivot to the next because

they were used to people just automatically showing up.

It didn't require work.

These people would be there every single Sunday.

And so now I have to do something different that I'm not prepared for that.

I didn't think about that.

I don't have the financial resources to gain.

I'm kind of stuck.

So I do need help here and I don't know where to start to get the help.

So these conversations should have been happening, but I think of African-American churches.

I think of the small church that has only 50 to a hundred people in all family.

They can't afford a, a resi set up, uh, rate array set up that that's 900 bucks, a computer

from Mac that's $2,000, a, um, a switcher.

That's another thousand dollars.

And then three cameras that are Canon reds.

It's another three or $4,000 a piece that that's not, unfortunately they can't afford that.

Um, and that's just how the makeup is now here's where partnerships matter.

And you can do this and be an ally without trying to bang the actual bail.

Hey, do you need help?

I see you need help.

Here are some resources.

Allow me to provide them for you.

I don't need nothing from it.

You ain't got to post me on social media.

That is not required of me.

Allow me to just help you get where we are and then we can move forward.

Watch this as a community.

What happens is when you have, uh, Anglo-Saxon churches, they move ahead and not try to pull

us or other people with them so that we can move ahead and communities together.

It is always, let me get ahead.

Let me forge, let me conquer.

And then y'all can get it by your bootstraps along the way.

And that's not always a good philosophy, but I understand why you do it.

Cause you're going to be looking out for your people, whoever the people are in your context.

And I respect that solely.

So there was a divide line, a digital divide, and it does impact the people who are unfortunately

not, um, not financially there.

And we have to acknowledge that.

Right.

Uh, and I know there are some organizations, I think like a Southern Baptist convention that

helped with digital.

I know those things exist, but everybody can't get ahold to those resources.

And so that puts people behind.

Now I'm going to say this.

You can stay behind or you can make some adjustments.

Facebook allows you to pull up a stream on your phone, turn on your phone, plug it into

a wall.

And there you have live stream.

It won't be perfect.

It won't look like everybody else, but it'll be yours.

And nobody was willing to forge that line and say, at least let me try it.

We're just sitting around waiting to see who would do the next thing better.

Try where you are, start where you are.

And God always provides the increase.

Yeah.

You know, I had a, um, a pastor friend.

I was actually friends with the executive pastors in African-American church here, here in South

Florida.

Um, maybe 1,000, 1,500, um, was, was much larger as shrunk over time, as decreased in size.

And, uh, the executive pastor wanted me to come in and talk about, um, online, this is pre-COVID.

And, uh, and so came in, uh, met with the pastor, walked the facility, talked, cast vision for,

for digital.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, I remember the pastor getting really excited.

I've told this story several times, but Jeff, I want to see my message preached around the

world.

He was very specific with this.

Jeff, I want to see somebody accept Christ and get baptized because of my sermon in, in

Ethiopia.

And, uh, I, I, I kind of chuckled about that with him and I was like, Hey, that guy that

gets baptized in Ethiopia, what happens after, uh, he gets baptized, what happens to him?

And, uh, the pastor looked at me and he's like, I don't know, Jeff, that's, that's really

not my problem.

And, um, and it was pre-COVID.

I mean, to be honest, like that was, that was not that uncommon of a mindset pre-COVID.

But, uh, I really had this opportunity to sit down with him and cast vision towards digital

discipleship and what church can look like more than just, uh, that, that one piece.

Um, so let me just ask, like, why does, and, and I, maybe I'm stereotypic, stereotyping all

African-American pastors.

So forgive me if that's happening here, but it feels like African-American culture struggles

to connect with digital community.

Like, um, it was interesting pre-COVID, the majority of online viewers of church services

on Facebook was African-American women.

Like, they, they would, uh, view content, but leaning into community and engagement, it

feels like African-Americans kind of struggle in that space.

Is, would you feel that's accurate or do you, do you disagree and maybe why or why not?

I think that's about exposure.

Uh, I don't feel, I don't necessarily feel like that's accurate.

I feel like we don't have the digital discipleship programs understood to on-ramp and off-ramp

people from the actual digital experience into our worship experience, right?

Or into a church setting or a small group, but you are right.

We consume a lot of this digital.

We may, to be honest, some of the times we make it cool to be on digital because of the

things that we do and how we just make digital move.

So that's about exposure to other aspects.

Like I did a whole two years where I immersed myself in multi-ethnic culture to see how it

was and if there was a difference between this one and that one.

And let me tell you, it ain't much difference between you and me, but here's the bigger difference.

And that is the digital divide because it impacts the disproportionate race and culture of people

more than it impacts the dominant culture.

And so we have to be cognizant of that.

Now watch this.

You're right.

The women, they consume this at a high rate and a high clip all the time.

And I can tell you, brother, there are a lot of African-American churches running live streams.

Now, not the whole totality, but a great deal of them are using the live stream, but they

don't know much of how to integrate them into their day to day walk in terms of creating

digital discipleship models and insert a person like me where I have lived these experience.

I've been a part of those and I understand how these makeups work in a church setting, whether

it be an African-American or a multi-COVID and, and we are more than more of the same than

we are different.

Again, as I stated, the divide is what it is.

The resources is what it is.

But I think this is about exposure for your brother.

Cause there's, I'll give you a church, a Wheeler Avenue Baptist church, uh, located in

Houston, Texas, uh, is a church that every Sunday, at least when I watched them last, I think

that had 26,000 views live.

Wow.

Okay.

That's in Houston.

Um, there is a church in Florida that I visited.

I want to say it's family church.

I visited family church when I was there for a conference.

I enjoy family church.

Family church was cool.

So they, how they, their, their makeup is all about community and being a part of the

community experience in Florida.

And so that was real as West Palm beach, as a matter of fact.

So that was really cool.

Um, and then there, I was actually just that family church a couple of weeks ago.

Hey man, I keep going.

So, so the IT dude, the family church, cool guy salute.

Um, but another church, um, that's, that's really cool.

Now you have, um, you can, Potter's house is an anomaly, right?

It is one that has thousands of people watching, but it is an anomaly and it is a multi-ethnic

experience.

And so now you have like Potter's house, Fort worth that people ignore, which is a good

friend of mine, Patrick Winfield.

They have many people.

The one North has many people.

Here's another church.

And I'm just using Dallas, uh, one community church, Conway Edwards.

He has, he, he just had 500 people get saved.

And I think two or 300 get baptized.

So this is about exposure more so than it is about under representation.

Now, to your example of the pastor who wants everything to be blasted across the world that

somebody can get saved in Ethiopia and Kazakhstan and all these other wishful places.

Let me tell you something, pastor, you need to curtail your dreams.

You are called usually to a local establishment and God may provide you the digital footprint to

be called to a more global one.

And usually that digital footprint is created through Facebook ads and YouTube funding.

And most of us are not ready to have that conversation.

It's interesting.

We may dig into that here in a little bit.

Yes, sir.

You know, it's, it's interesting.

Conway Edwards is a friend.

I've, I've, I've spoken at, uh, at one community a lot and, and, um, um, no, uh, like they did

an excellent virtual, but we actually built their virtual reality ministry for them a couple

of years ago and, and, and, and several other things along the way.

Um, but you know, and they're, they're an example of, of a hybrid church, a physical

church doing digital.

And you were talking about how, you know, I say fidgetal, but that's, you know, I get

booed for saying that word.

It's okay.

But the, but part of this really gets back to, um, the integration beyond just the broadcast

could be on the content and getting into day to day.

Yes.

Um, and so you said some things about groups and, and I mentioned some, some churches, but

would love to maybe get into specifics if you, if you were able to share, like what would

specifically, tangibly, practically, um, what does an integration into an African-American

life, uh, Monday through Friday, Monday through Saturday, like any other time, the 9am Sunday,

what does it look like to integrate, uh, a, a hybrid physical and digital together?

How does, how does digital make the physical engagement better?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good question, brother.

And salute to one of my clients who I'm the communication director for in South Carolina,

Spartanburg, uh, that is Mount Moriah.

And so we are taking and using social media and digital to our advantage.

And I'm going to use them as an example, because I know I won't get in trouble and I won't

violate any NDAs that I may have signed in the past or current.

So that being said, uh, one of the things that we did when I first got there is we made

sure that we had a simplistic digital presence and I'm going to go through my process because

I'm a project manager and I just have to go through it and give you my spiel.

Simplistic digital presence.

That is helpful.

It's easy to communicate.

Everybody can see it.

So we had to go through a brand and restructuring.

We're now about to finish, redo the website.

And I'm going to come back to that because that's an important piece.

The website is for the external use of our visitors.

We want the external customers to go directly to the website and integrate themselves there

first to get information that'll be pertinent to that community specifically.

Because what I may do for South Carolina, I may not do in Baltimore or LA or Nashville or

whatever the case may be.

Each one is going to have a different approach and I'm just using them as an example.

So we, we take that and we, we redo the website to make sure that we are from an external standpoint,

answering all questions on that front landing page of that website.

Right.

And then we're going to use things like the learn more button to off-road them into next

steps, membership, discipleship.

This is something that I'm doing currently.

It's not nothing that's old.

It's something I'm doing currently.

And the website should be up probably tomorrow.

I believe my team is working on it, but we have that.

Hey, join us here.

Here's our live page.

Here is your next steps.

Here is this event.

Here is that event and that's good for an external user in terms of how we integrate them into

our process.

But now, oh, my bad, my, my, I'm going to switch.

I'm not going to switch devices.

My camera, my other camera finally came up.

I can switch.

It's cool.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah, go ahead.

We can, we got, um, so anyway, um, that's, uh, it still didn't come on.

Let's do it.

In discord.

There you go.

I was struggling looking at the other screen.

So, um, so that being said, you know, we have a digital process and that front page

is going to really get them on ramped off ramp into, um, or what I like to call it a tech

world, uh, handshakes and handoff.

We want to make sure that they are good for a new member.

That's one way.

Um, the other way is we want to make sure that the live chat experience is engaging.

Sometimes some of us in the African American space simply turn on our live feed and then

that is it.

We don't engage the clients that's outside of the live feed because those are potential

people that want to join or be become a member of that church.

So creating an engaging environment that is loving brings people back the center of the whole

thing, right?

That's important.

Cool.

So once we've done that, now we're going to ask that have, I'm gonna get right there,

brother.

We're going to ask them to say, Hey, would you like to become a member?

And we're going to have a digital process for those who are in-house and external.

And that process is going to route them to something called either adult ministry or assimilation.

That is the whole target.

We're trying to reposition people back into the local church.

And if the local church has a online campus passes, white beard said, then we're trying

to get them fostered in the community.

So let now we take a right turn and we say, here is our Facebook group, or we say, here

is our discord group.

And then this is going to be our small group.

And we're going to build and foster this connection in that manner.

So those are a couple of ways in which we are integrating the digital discipleship model.

And I think the last and most important way that I'm start, I'm, I am going to be really

big on coming forward.

And that is setting up ways where the pastor doesn't have to repeat his or herself.

And that means we need to create learning models, learning management models so that people can

watch and become members digitally.

You can't be really serious about digital if you didn't create a model that exists digitally.

And so now if we have an LMS system that is within the website, we can track milestones, we

can track progress, and we can track you and give you the information you need.

And this can happen for any church in specifically a black one.

That's my spiel, bro.

You just spooked a whole bunch of people by then tracking like 12 times.

So that, that, that aside, no, I love what you're talking about.

And because I mean, ultimately a lot of that is, I mean, there's, there's some old technique

there.

It's nothing new under the sun.

Absolutely, bro.

The, the, the, the heart of this is, is there's intentionality.

Like it's, we are intentionally going to use this technology for, uh, for this benefit.

And, you know, you've said several times to drive people to, to physical buildings for, for that.

And, um, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of churches that do that.

Now we, we, we will get into this a little bit.

We work with digital churches without, big churches without buildings.

But, um, the, the fact is, is that there's, there's far more opportunities for physical

churches to better engage people digitally, uh, than even the, the amount of digital churches

that are out there.

And can I say this, Jeff, can I say this before you, before you, um, because I would love to

see more African-American churches or black and brown people do digital churches and do

them well.

I think some of them don't have the information or know-how to create that.

So I, I, I believe now in this society, we can create that model to exist, uh, that Jeff

and I are speaking about, you know, there was, um, TD Jakes is what's the Potter's house,

right?

That's Dallas.

His son, I want to say launched a, a digital only church that was based out of Denver or

somewhere in Colorado.

You talking about the, you talking about one church, uh, at first one church was in LA and

it was a physical church and then their church transitioned because they moved to Dallas and

now they have one church, one church, Denver that is connected to one church LA and they

do it the digital and physical way.

Yeah.

Oh, so they're, they're hybrid now.

They're physical and digital.

That's right.

At some point, I guess when they were launching, they launched digital first and which, you

know, if you're TD Jakes, the son, I would launch digital first too and build your following

digitally and then evolve to physically.

Do you know of, of any, uh, African American churches that are digital only?

Like has, has anybody kind of hit your radar on that yet?

No, I can't, I haven't, I haven't met one.

I have, I see, I see them here and there, but I haven't done enough research to see if

they are.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Stop right there.

Um, at one point, I think they went back to hybrid Clarence stores out of Chicago.

He was doing strictly online, uh, and he had an online ministry for a minute and then he

moved to doing digital and now Clarence stores is a great resource.

Um, and so now you can see him positioning himself to do what I'm talking about in terms

of creating this model of learning digitally, which allows your church to be anywhere at

any time.

And they have their, their tagline is Morris Hill anywhere.

And so that means his church can be anywhere at any time.

So if I was thinking of somebody who, who I believe was doing it or going that direction,

Clarence stores is definitely that guy.

Yeah.

Um, there are African Americans.

It's interesting.

I would love some information on Clarence.

Um, there's a little offline.

The there, there, I mean, there are African Americans that are doing this.

Like Andre, do you know Andre Anderson?

Um, barbecue church, barbecue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like he's, he's, he's solid and doing all sorts of stuff digitally, but like, he's

more excited about barbecue grills than African American culture or whatever.

So like, it's, it's kind of a different, it's a different vibe.

I guess I would say talking, talking with, with Andre, that guy's, that guy's talking about

like smoked sausage and all sorts of like he's, he's giving me, I'm doing a podcast trying

to discover what his church is.

And he's giving me recipes for, for like what he's like, you're going to, you're going to

come over to my house and we're going to cook this and this and this and like, Oh my gosh.

Yes.

Like I need to get Andre back on just, just for, just to talk about the food that I'm going

to maybe one day.

I think, I think for us in terms of creating a digital only church, here are some components

that we have to create and I believe it can be done, but the components have to be created.

At some point we have to figure out how to have the, the community at large feel like an actual

physical church because an African-American diaspora community is a lifeline for us.

Right.

And so you can do digital community, but for us, we like to have that nice, good hug from

grandmother that's on the front row to help us go along the way or have a conversation.

Or as, as, as mentioned, having meals, food is a, is a huge thing for us that gives us

that source of community.

So let's say you did church pop-ups, but for the most part, your church is digital and we

just do the pop-ups to make sure that biblically we are doing as far as what the Bible says in

the book of Acts.

And that is coming together as much as we should.

Right.

And we could still have that approach and still be able to not lose a red cent as far as anything

else.

So I think it could be done.

It's just, nobody has leaned into that fully, but they have leaned into more.

So it's having that online pastor or our campus pastor to do exactly what I'm mentioning, where

we're getting both of the hybrid.

So I am watching more African-American churches move to the hybrid model and embrace it because

they saw what happened before and they don't want to get caught again like that.

Yeah.

Well, a hybrid is the, I mean, hiring a, an online campus pastor, a hybrid model, like that's

the less, that's the least invasive way to add digital to a physical church.

That is correct.

Let's hire a guy.

Let's make that his problem and, you know, watch him succeed or fail.

And if he fails, we'll find somebody else.

But like, it's, it's, I don't have to, you know, really rethink things.

It's not going to impact physical.

We just put cameras in here.

We record and, you know, somebody pastorally cares for the people that are not in the building.

Um, and, and that's, that's not to discredit, like for, for many, that needs to be the step,

uh, for today.

Uh, cause we don't want to re-engage.

We don't want to rediscover.

We don't want to have to re-experience, um, COVID all over again and, and what it was

like to be locked out and, and caught without some of, some of those issues.

Um, our, there, there is another lady, I'm going to say this, Jeff, there is another lady

and she used to do it.

I think she still does it.

She is a, she's a doctor, I think somewhere in the Midwest and I'm going to get her name

wrong.

I'm trying to look it up real quick, but I think it's her name of her show was like pink

robe chronicles.

And she would do an actual worship service and experience in her robe and it would be

three or 400 people there.

So I've seen it.

I've seen it.

Yes, sir.

I've seen it done.

And she would, and she, I want to say, I have to get the name and I'll put it in the chat

later, but definitely it has been done even prior to COVID definitely has been done.

Um, just hasn't been done at a more prevalent.

We, it didn't break the algorithm, right?

We, they weren't over there doing something really crazy.

They were simply over there preaching to their former people.

It's another guy out of Memphis, a brother named Earl, uh, Abyssinia Baptist church.

For the most part, his church is digital.

Like I just saw him preaching on a beach Sunday, right?

So there are some have doing it, but not at the rate that we would want to see them at

some of these major ministries.

Yeah, there it is.

My man got it.

Melva Sampson, Dr. Melva Sampson.

She, she does it.

My man.

Hey, we got to connect, bro.

You're all right.

Uh, she, she, she does it for sure.

Yeah.

White beard, DK, you two should connect.

Uh, DK, I'm going to warn you.

White beard's a little eclectic.

Uh, so like he's, uh, but he's, he's, he's a solid guy.

He's, he's, he's becoming a good friend here of, of the church digital.

Love that man.

Um, so, so answer me this as, as we're getting into this.

And by the way, uh, if there's any questions, throw them in chat and, uh, towards the end,

we'll probably open it up and, and, and let you guys even come on.

Um, but talk to me about this.

Um, are the majority of churches, African-American churches, would you say the majority at this

point are comfortable with a hybrid model?

It's, it's interesting.

Like, uh, push pay stats recently.

Let me put some grounding into this.

91% of, of churches that push pay, uh, interviewed are streaming services online.

Uh, 90% are, are hybrid, would consider themselves hybrid.

Like nine out of 10 churches in America today would consider themselves hybrid.

Um, do you think that carries over or something close to that carries over an African-American?

What do you think the stats are?

Yeah, uh, I would bring up Brianna Parker's stat that she put up.

Um, I don't have it on me.

I may be able to bring it up in a minute.

Uh, but I feel like-

Oh, you put that on Facebook recently, right?

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Brianna Parker, she does the research on African-American churches.

She is, to me, the GOAT when it comes to that information.

And I don't mind referencing, referencing to her because look, man, she, she's done the research

and the legwork necessary.

And here's what she says.

Uh, this is, uh, Black Millennial Cafe.

If you want to look it up, Dr. Brianna Parker, uh, it says this 41% of black church members

say they want to continue with virtual church.

Digital ministry can't be ignored.

59% of black church members are only willing to commit to returning to church in a hybrid

model.

Now I've seen that push pay report.

And my fear is that it was probably one sided.

That's my fear.

That's my fear.

I'm not sure.

And I'm not judging them if it is.

I do not know.

I don't have a direct connect.

Uh, I just feel like they may or may not have gotten it and represented everybody well

there.

Um, but I know she's attempting to create the narrative to show people here is what these

groups of people desire and they do desire a church that is a hybrid model.

Um, and so if they desire a church as hybrid model, then we have to pay attention to that.

We can't ignore that.

We, we have to set things in place here.

Here are a couple of things that you want to set in place.

If you are an African American church and you're listening to me, first thing is you want to

make sure the video quality is aesthetically pleasing.

You can no longer risk having these fuzzy pictures and expecting people to stay on your

live feed at any time.

It's not happening.

You want to make sure your sound quality is up to standard, right?

Your sound quality is important.

Just like your video quality is important.

And here's the most important thing.

Once you get done with the aesthetics and how they look, you want to make sure that your

pastor is preaching about something.

Now I know this is going to be risky and it may get me in trouble or cancel.

And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm braced for both of them.

Some of these pastors that want to go digital should not go digital.

They should close down their digital and just preach to their community church because that's

what works for them.

Some of these things should not be seen or shown.

They should be put behind a paywall or safe later at a different time for other people

to experience.

So to the answer to the question, absolutely.

Here's what the, here's what the church is saying.

We want to have variety.

We want to be able to experience church both in person.

And if I'm on vacation, I want to be able to take church wherever I go.

And some of these leaders aren't on board with that.

They, I had a pastor once said to me, and, and, and I love when they start the statement

off like this, cause it's funny, you know, being a member has its privileges.

And so we used to joke.

I know I do, man.

I love it.

We used to joke.

It's like being, being a church member that won't even give me like a free fry at McDonald's.

Like, like, anyway, that's, that's funny.

That's good.

Being a member has its privileges.

Being a member has its privileges.

And one of the privileges should be that you, this is what the pastor said.

One of the privileges should be that you should show up to church and you shouldn't do digital.

And then his mind changed when he received a check.

You got what I'm saying?

So now it took a, it took, it took incentivization.

If that's a word today, you were incentivized by the check.

And now you're saying, okay, let's, let's offer something for digital.

Because I see that giving is coming.

Giving has been there.

Maybe if you teach about something, giving would go up.

I'm off of my soapbox now.

Those three things you need.

So, so go ahead and send any hate mail to DK at, no, it's, it's all good.

That's, that's not even the worst thing that I've said this week.

So you're, you're, you're fine.

Yes, sir.

That's, that's so good, man.

That's, that's awesome.

What, a couple, a couple more questions.

Yeah, man.

Does, how do we change and get more adoption, more understanding?

Yeah.

Of digital, like, it's funny, like White Beard, White Beard works for an African-American church.

You know, others have some connections, you know, within that, even in our audience, there's going to be people that work at or are connected with African-American churches that may or may not be supporting this.

But yeah, how, what, what, what needs to happen?

What's, what's some practical things that we can do to kind of pivot here?

I've been waiting for this question.

So here's what I think.

Here is a way.

Here are some things that we need to do in no particular order.

Number one, we need senior leadership to embrace the change.

The, the, the fight is not the people.

My conversation and consultant is more so of senior leadership and their fear or the fear of the unknown for them and not knowing or educating themselves about what could be if you would allow it.

Right.

Cool.

You need to have some faith that God can bring you the resources that you need to get the things that you need to go into the highways and byways and compel men to come.

You need to be called to digital ministry.

Some people aren't called to it and they shouldn't do it if you are not called to it.

And if you are called to it, find somebody who's as passionate about it, like white beard here and get connected with them so they can help you foster and build that.

I think partnership is a huge thing.

It's a huge thing for me.

And so I do my best that while I work for these various churches is that I always set time.

This is kind of what my podcast about.

It's kind of what my connection with SMC is about.

I'm always setting time to get information that I'm learning and put it out there into the atmosphere because I know there's somebody who is listening that don't have the resources to afford it, but they're thinking about it and they're dreaming about it.

And I'm having a conversation about it.

And this is my communal give back.

Every single time I do something for anybody else, I am bringing information for all of us to consume, to move ahead if we so desire.

So partnership is important is one of the critical pieces.

And then I love the church that was in Oregon recently who made a bold declaration that said they weren't called to a live church experience.

Then we did a we did a recap on that.

And I and I loved his after I heard it a couple of times.

I loved his approach.

We are called that.

He said it is Oregon in the kingdom of God.

That is the in between.

And so if you feel like you are called to something more global, then your ministry should reflect.

If you are not called, then your ministry should reflect.

And that's how we should put it.

And we shouldn't demonize people who want a more variety, more robust experience from the digital to the physical.

Yeah, it's Irma McManus.

I don't know if you've heard this quote.

Oh, for sure.

I'm making McManus said this.

Yeah.

He's like, if if you really love the physical church service, like if if the one thing you do and how you gauge success is the number of people that are sitting in the pews.

Like if that's your thing, why would you put that online?

Like it doesn't make any sense to put that online.

Now, you know, I would I would challenge there's other things you can do online.

There's other ways that you can be missional and engage.

Even if you're you're, you know, hyper focusing on a specific area like Oregon, there's still digital ways to hyper focus on on Oregon.

So you want to utilize digital, but that doesn't mean you have to utilize the online church service, the 70 minutes or whatever it is on Sunday morning.

And it's so interesting that like that's been the that's been the conflict.

It's like, oh, we got the church service on that.

We're good.

We got the church service online.

That's that's all that we're doing.

And it's like, no, no, no, that's not really.

And you're you're so good at this and so eloquently explaining it like the online church service is the start of the conversation.

It's not it's not the finish line.

No, it's there's so much more that needs to needs to happen.

Or otherwise, we're we're creating consumers of content, which, to your point, is not a good thing.

That's not where we want to be.

We need to move move beyond that.

So so good.

Hey, Melanie's asking a question here.

My city is 80 percent white, 20 percent, 22 percent Hispanic and one percent black.

Now, let's not do the math here and discover that's one hundred and three percent.

Let's just assume the best.

Former sundown town KKK history.

So I'm curious if how digital church can provide a safe experience.

So going back to the beginning, we talked a lot about somebody giving that safety, giving that safe experience feel.

So she's in a town where one percent African-American digitally.

That sounds like my old city where I'm from is Little Rock, Arkansas.

So I hope that's not Springdale or Harrison, but I won't.

That's where I'm trying to answer to answer the question.

And again, there's no right or wrong.

But if I'm trying to create safety and I'm thinking I already have these people represented and I'm creating safety, number one for the people internally.

And I'm considering the people externally.

So somebody that may look like me is going to be looking for songs.

That they can hear them, that they can sing with you.

Again, African-Americans love the community experience.

Right.

And so a part of our communal experience is singing together.

It's a huge part.

And so CCM, unfortunately, when it is song, it is five, five verses, three bamps that we have to understand and get.

And we can't connect to that in most times.

And so we have to sit there and look on the screen to try to keep up with and understand that cadence, because that is a different feel for us.

That's one.

So the worship experience needs to be there.

The preaching experience needs to be an experience that includes everybody, including the one percent.

I love that one percent that includes that.

That means I am sympathetic, understanding and willing to speak truth to power to what you may experience as the person you are.

Point blank, period.

Now, that is a risky conversation for some pastors because you're going to alienate the 80 percent when you attempt to speak to the other congregants that may not look like them.

OK, so that leads me to the third point.

So now we have to go in and do internal work to make sure that we're doing allyship correctly.

And most of the time, that's where people are kind of off board and they think you're left wing, right wing.

It's not about that.

If I go into a worship experience, I want to feel God's presence.

I don't want to feel your ethnicity.

And if I feel your ethnicity more than God's presence, this is not the church for anybody.

At any point.

So that is important.

I don't want to feel your politics.

I want to feel God's presence.

That is important.

And so presence is community.

It is fellowship.

It is singing.

It is the preaching experience.

It is the safety.

I hope that kind of answers a way that we can help foster an environment of safety for the 1%.

I may I may do a podcast on that.

That's a good topic.

Yeah, that's that's interesting in that it actually kind of challenges even the idea of of preferences, right?

Like you want to you want to feel God, not preferences, extra biblical ideology like the with the worship, the worship's aligning towards a biblical ideology.

That's right.

Not preferences that may come into play, which really flies even in the face of of, you know, white, black, whatever.

Like it's it's it's that's, you know, what you're you're pulling the thread of.

We're asking the wrong questions.

It's it's more about God.

Yes.

Have you what's a good what's a good book like there's on this maybe that to really expose the African-American culture and Bible and scripture?

Like is there there is a I'm trying to think is reading the reading the Bible black or reading the gospel black is something that I've read historically is is there a is there a book you fall back on or encourage some of some of your friends to read?

I have some on my shelf if you allow me to grab them.

I think I can grab them real quick.

Hold on a second.

Yeah.

Oh, look at that.

The camera even panned with plus the iPhone and it's tracking.

Oh, that was so good, man.

OK, so I will give three.

Anytime we're talking about African-Americans, you want to definitely think about this is Howard Thurman Meditations of Heart.

This is going to be he's a he's what's called a Christian mystic, but he definitely is going to represent and you can hear a lot of his sermons on Harvard.

He has a listening room on Harvard seminary page.

Definitely a good read.

This is not a good one, but I grabbed it.

So I feel like I'm going to share it anyway.

This is this is more of a this is more of a leadership book.

It is leadership in the age of the quick fix.

This is one.

This is a seminary text that I have.

Let me move this down.

Sorry.

Seminary text that I use.

That's really great for leadership.

And then anything with MLK and let's not do the sanitize MLK.

Let's do the real one, please.

This is a testament of hope, essential writings and speeches of Martin Luther King.

And if we take some of those, we can start a conversation.

I would say find a good brother or sister who you can just share with.

I love my seminary people at Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa, who I have allies there and we have conversations like this and they're willing to do the work here.

And I love that you say bring up the reading because it's going to require you to do work.

It's not going to be one of those places where you can't you're going to have to do some work to unearth some things and do away with some things in order to understand.

I would even say, I would even say, man, attend a worship experience, get that in your spirit.

Just just go there just to see for yourself what we're talking about.

And if you have questions, find somebody that you can say, hey, I know this is this is this is a crying thought of you.

And I want to apologize up front.

But can you help educate me where it's not a problem?

And most people will do that if you're looking at podcasting because we are podcasters.

Of course, you want to look at my podcast or the SMC podcast.

There are other people in the diaspora that you want to definitely look at.

A pastor named Larry T. Cruder out of South Carolina, his podcast.

There are various people in the the work that's willing to help you.

Dr. Brianna Parker can't speak enough about her willing to help you help you understand.

But it is going to require some work on your side.

So that's what I would say, bro.

Awesome, man.

I've I've loved hanging out with you on doing this, having this conversation.

Yeah, I don't think I said anything too stupid.

Maybe maybe once or twice.

But I don't I don't think we'll go viral for me being an idiot.

Hopefully time will tell.

But hey, as we're landing the plane here.

Yeah, that's funny.

As we're landing the plane here.

Any closing thoughts?

No, man.

I appreciate you guys for for having me.

Please make sure you check out SMC and myself, Niels and Aaron over there.

Check out my podcast, drop the mic podcast.

And I'm talking about various conversations myself and just just continue to pray for us

as pray for me as I continue to make an impact digitally and help our people see the God of the grids.

Hey, DK, thanks for jumping on here.

SMC is social media church.

It's a social media church podcast.

So we'll put links to to DK stuff and social media church.

And absolutely.

And some of these will put them in the show notes and on the podcast and YouTube descriptions and all that stuff.

So we'll get the resources out in front.

But hey, so we're going to wrap up here with the podcast recording and discord.

We're going to hang out, maybe talk here a little bit.

If DK still got some time to do that.

But thanks for jumping on the show with us today and we'll catch you next time.

Y'all have a good one.

Peace.