EP294 - Barbara Carneiro & Focusing Digital Communications for Church

And so people that will fund you will fund you because they want to be a part of something and we have to give them the language for it.

You will exhaust your friends if you're just asking for money to get your ministry going like that's going to be exhausted very fast.

But if you have people, if you give them clarity about what you're doing, they can then join you because there's clarity on what they are doing.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, episode 294 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church Digital.

And oh my gosh, I'm doing this podcast and I'm not wearing a hat.

And so it's going to be weird.

I'm going to put a hat on on YouTube.

You can go watch this video over on YouTube and see what Jeff looks like when he doesn't wear a hat.

Because I've got this beard.

I have never been more self-conscious about my bald head now that I have a beard.

Like when it was just a goatee, I didn't care.

But like when I take my hat off and it's like I've got hair everywhere except for the spot up top where it doesn't grow anymore, the big spot up top.

Like you didn't want to know this, but I'm just sharing from the soul.

This is what I do for the podcast.

You get the unfiltered view of the podcast.

By the way, talking about unfiltered, we're getting to some unfiltered conversation here with the Church Digital Podcast.

Barbara Canero coming up a minute.

But all of this is brought to you by Riverside.

Riverside, one of the sponsors here with the Church Digital, especially the podcast.

And I got to tell you, we just continue to be impressed with Riverside.

Use their script software, their teleprompter software.

Script software for this episode, teleprompter software this past week.

I'll tell you, the thing that most impressed me about Riverside is it was funny.

I was actually doing a training with one of our content directors, Tom Pounder.

Tom Pounder, TCD sidekick.

You all know the podcast, Tom.

Most of you know him.

He is moving to Riverside as well.

He's going to start to produce his podcast with Riverside.

As we've talked about it, he's seen some of the things he can do with shorts and AI, how they've infused it into programming.

He's been really excited.

And so this past week, I jumped on a, I guess it was literally on Riverside.

Maybe it was Google Meet.

But I walked him through a lot of functionality of Riverside, how it works, and just coaching him through it.

It's like a 30-minute conversation.

Riverside is so intuitive towards things.

But it was really interesting.

While I was on the call with Tom, I get an email from, I think, Abe or Abel from Riverside.

And it's the, you know, it's the mass email newsletter they send out weekly or whatever.

But this particular email was like all the bug patches and upgrades and features that came into Riverside.

And so I open up this email on my phone, and I just, because I'm listening to Tom talk and, you know, just, you know, whatever, and just on my phone, kind of scrolling through.

And this just keeps scrolling through, just keeps scrolling through, just keeps scrolling through.

Like all the improvements that they have put into Riverside.

I just, I've constantly, I don't have, you know, contact with the inside.

I don't know what's going on.

I don't know Riverside's roadmap, but they are putting so much effort and energy into Riverside right now.

It is incredible.

Church, if you're not utilizing this software for podcast recordings, for a remote interview, for creation of shorts, like the little bit of money that Riverside costs is ridiculous.

The power that you're getting, the horsepower, the functionality, the potential of what Riverside is, y'all definitely need to check it out.

Go to the website, thechurch.digital slash Riverside, thechurch.digital slash Riverside.

Get more information, check it out, and tell them Jeff said hello.

It's really, it's good stuff.

I think we're exclusively using Riverside.

You know what?

We've got one guy left.

There's one show left here on the podcast network that's not using Riverside.

I've got to get that guy to change.

That's my goal in life.

I've got a lot of goals in life, I'll be honest, but that's one of them is to get, I'm not going to insert name here.

I'm going to beep, get beep to change to Riverside.

I'm not going to call them out publicly, although I really, really want to, but that's another one.

Hey, let's get into the podcast.

Barbara Carnero, I told you this is an unfiltered view with the Church Digital Podcast.

So we were doing live recordings of the podcast, and we tried to for the majority of them, over on Discord.

By the way, if you're not on the Church Digital's Discord server, thechurch.no, discord.thechurch.digital, discord.thechurch.digital.

Sign up, get in there.

Oh my gosh, there's like so many events and live podcast recordings and open offices and the engagement, the community.

It's been unbelievable.

We used to, we used to, we put a lot of effort, we used to involve ourselves in a, in a platform that we will no longer speak of, formerly known as Mighty Networks.

And it is, I mean, horrible is the word that comes to mind.

It was a horrible experience.

Like it just, it wasn't, it wasn't what it needed to be.

And we've, we, we officially publicly launched Discord, I don't know, a week or so ago now.

And we've doubled in size.

It's just so much more engagement, so much more community, so much more live streaming and dialoguing and international.

Oh my gosh, so much stuff.

We're going to talk about that soon with the Church Digital.

And really, I'm going to just be honest, like one of, one of the architects, um, and maybe the best addition that we've done in the Church Digital was involving ourselves with Barbara Carnero and Word Revolution.

Barbara is, uh, is CEO of the agency over there at Word Revolution.

And, um, I am, I am so impressed.

We've been working with her for about 10 months on different projects.

She, she spearheaded our, our brand, uh, rebranding.

She and her team, um, our, our brand, uh, our, our, our communication strategy are, are just, you know, so much, even, even like what we're doing on a day-to-day basis, not only the strategy aspects, but how we're communicating.

And, and to be honest, a lot of what my vision for what the Church Digital was, we'll talk about it in the show, a lot of my vision, um, like she's owning it and she's telling it back better than I am.

And, uh, and, and she's, I mean, she's such an asset for us.

Uh, we brought her on the Church Digital team.

She's, she's Connections Director.

Um, and so communications and, and a lot of the, the, the top funnel stuff, if you do the funnel talk, she's that.

And then feeds into Andy, who's now overseeing community, which is Discord and some other things.

And so, like, it's been an incredible experience.

And so, but, but her agency really works with church rebranding, church strategy, church communication stuff.

And, um, we, the Church Digital, this summer, summer 24, we're doing a series of learning communities.

And it's like, hey, who are, who are we going to do?

Like, what, what learning communities are we going to kind of open up with and get a proof of concept on?

And Barbara is doing some phenomenal work with, um, communications.

And so it's like, all right, Barbara, you know, are you willing to step in?

And she is.

And so we're going to be offering a learning community on church communications here, summer 24.

And I would challenge you all to check out Barbara's communications.

If you are an organization that is struggling with branding, uh, with messaging, with communications,

with the strategy implications of it, with, with getting people to own your vision.

We talk about this portability, uh, getting people to own your vision.

Um, Barbara has done that for the Church Digital in a big way.

And she's doing a learning community to help organizations and churches like yours figure it out for you.

So more information on learning communities, thechurch.digital slash, um, learning hyphen communities.

Check out that's plural on communities.

We'll put a link in the show notes towards it.

Disclaimer here on the podcast.

Um, this is probably the, we've done a lot of live podcast recordings and streams.

We've not had any issues.

And for whatever reason, this podcast, we had the most issues with the live stream.

So be patient with us on the tech.

Um, it, it'll hold up for the, for the most part.

And, uh, I, and I think everything was, came through okay.

Um, there was a lot of just calm distractions kind of walking into this conversation solid.

Um, you know, life sometimes gets messy and, and it intersects into what we're trying to do.

And you're feeling that in real time.

Remember, this is the unfiltered episode 294 of the Church Digital Podcast.

You're getting real.

Uh, so we'll talk about it some on, on the show, but definitely a big win.

Whether you're a physical church, whether you're a digital church, whether you're something

in between, whether you're just trying to figure this out, nonprofit Christian ministry, like

there's takeaways for all of you.

So check out, uh, myself, Jeff, the Church Digital and Barbara with the Church Digital and

Word Revolution.

In a, in a, in a, in a conversation, uh, digital, uh, communications for churches.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Hey, Barbara, how you doing?

I'm good.

I'm good.

So this is going to be an, in an interesting conversation.

I was, I was telling them, you know, you are, uh, just getting ready to leave the country,

moving with your family over to Barcelona.

I told them an interesting story where I almost died in Barcelona at the Barca, at the Spain,

France, uh, border.

I was, I was kayaking.

I was on a, I did a mission trip to Barcelona.

Um, I actually had a friend at the time that was playing for the Barcelona dragons, which

was the NFL minor league team that was in Barcelona.

And, uh, so I was visiting him as well.

And, uh, we went kayaking and, um, my kayak overturned in this, the whitewaters in France.

Um, and I didn't, I didn't under overturn it and, uh, kind of like was drowning for a little

bit.

And by the time they got like that, I didn't, I mean, obviously I didn't die.

It wasn't even hospital, but you know, they get, they get me out.

They, they, uh, they do the chest compressions.

I get all the water out of me and it was, it was crazy.

They didn't mouth to mouth.

I, it was, if my friend had actually done mouth to mouth on me, like that would have

been, um, awkward.

Um, it was a big football player guy.

And, uh, but no, it was, uh, it was, it was an interesting moment.

I lost my class ring.

It was my, my college class ring at the time is actually somewhere at the bottom of some

river in, in, uh, France or Spain.

So hopefully, hopefully you don't die in Barcelona, Barbara.

I don't want to jinx the situation, but that would be my wish for you.

Um, and, but I was like, you know, she's, she's moving.

And so we've been doing a lot of running on both sides.

I've been dealing with insurance companies and, and, uh, calling a bunch of that besides

some of the other stuff.

But I am excited and looking forward to coming into this conversation centered around, uh,

church communication.

So how are you doing today?

Are you, you settled in everything good?

What's, what's your day look like so far?

We are, we are.

So, you know, we're in that limbo where we're not there.

We're not here anymore.

So it's kind of like half, half of the house is gone, but then half of the house is still

here.

Uh, and, uh, you know, we're kind of have a foot there and a foot here.

And so I, I hate limbo.

Um, so I'm, I'm kind of like just ready to be done.

Um, but you know, there's something to be said about, uh, mourning what you're leaving

behind and the things that you're gonna, uh, you know, not see for a little, a little bit.

So I'm, I don't want to rush that process of, of going through those emotional roller coasters.

This would be, this will be the first time we don't, do not live in the U S for like in

the last, um, 15, 15 years.

So yeah.

So U S will be a place of visit for me now, like vacation.

Yeah.

I've never, I've never lived outside of the country.

You know, I've, I've visited and traveled, but, um, you were, you, you were more South

American initially, right?

Yes.

So Spain will be the seventh country I'll live in.

Um, yeah, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Portugal, England, U S and now Spain.

Where England?

I was in London.

That's where I finished my degree.

Yeah.

Wow.

I, I, London is the place that I would love to.

I, I did a lot of, uh, my, my minor in college was a British literature and actually 19th century

British literature.

And I can tell you a bunch of stuff about stuff you don't care about, but, um, I, you know,

I've always been like, I want to go to London one day.

And so one day, one day it'll actually happen, but we're not there now.

All right.

Hey, let's, let's dig in here.

We're, we're talking about, um, we're talking about church communications.

And, and, and, you know, I've, I've shared your story often here, uh, on streams and podcasts

talking about, uh, you know, a lot of the, the things, uh, that you've helped us figure

out with the church digital with our, our rebranding, uh, merging digital church network and the church

digital together, um, helping us simplify our, our message and the importance of that.

Um, you know, building the websites, um, you know, unifying what we're doing and using that,

that, that really that vision to, to help us filter out what we are and what we're not.

Um, and it, and it's funny, like even as early as recent as today, you know, we're in meetings

talking about it and some of the stuff I want to hear and some of the stuff I'm like, I don't,

I don't like what you're saying right now, Barbara, not to say that it's wrong, but it's,

it's, it's forcing me, uh, to kind of limit who I am because I want to do everything for

everybody.

I want to, I want to be, um, you know, salt.

I want to be everywhere.

You know, we're, we're the salt of the earth and sometimes by doing everything, by trying

to reach everybody, you reach nobody.

And, um, you know, the, the more narrow you reach, the more people that you reach.

And so it's, it's, it's hard to, in digital context, I'm just gonna be honest, it's hard

for me to pivot.

And I know that's, that's a challenge for a lot of our churches because physically it's

everywhere, everything.

And, and when they try to be everywhere and everything for everyone digitally, you know,

there's a lot of challenges in that.

And so, man, I would love to just even open up a little bit here for you.

And, and like, as, as we're talking, you know, digital, uh, communications, you know,

we're talking, let's talk physical church.

Let's talk digital expressions of church established new, uh, plants, you know, top to

bottom.

What are, what are some of the challenges?

What are some of the, um, the, the hurdles?

How do, and how do we even start to overcome that?

Yeah.

So, uh, you know, the idea of, of having an audience is something that we've heard for a

long time.

Like people will talk about, like, you know, define your audience, get to know your audience.

Uh, and I feel like we've gotten to a point where the idea of an audience is this, this,

this like very abstract concept, right?

I was like, oh yeah, I have an audience.

Like, what is it?

Like how, how can we, um, humanize that and not seeing it as an abstract concept and start

seeing people?

Uh, and so I think more, more than more often than not, like the things that I, I sometimes

share with leaders and, and, uh, church leaders is like, listen, I don't want you to think of

serving everybody because even that is abstract.

Who's sitting at your table when you're talking, when you're describing, when you're sharing what

you do, who's sitting at your table.

And now obviously we can have visual tables, right?

We can have visual gatherings.

We can have in-person gatherings and like all of those, like the expressions can be endless,

but who, who's sitting with you?

Not everybody will sit with you and what you're doing in some point in time, sometimes the

easiest way to start is by saying who would never sit at my table because there are, there

are people that will never sit at my table, not because I don't want to work with them,

not because I don't want to minister to them, not because I don't want to serve them, but

because there's just no point of connection, uh, that person would choose not to sit at my

table.

And so there has to be a table somewhere for that person because God is that good.

Like he wants everybody to have a seat at a table.

And so I need to start by saying some people will never sit at my table.

And if I can start looking at who would have a hard time or where's the greatest gap, right?

So I can say, well, it'll be easier for some people than others.

So some have a smaller gap than others will have.

Does that mean that I, you know, and let's just give examples.

Like I may say, well, a 65 year old male may never sit at a table with me, with me listening

to what I got to say.

Maybe we're just saying that there's going to be somebody in some point in the future that

will be like, he's 65, he's a male and he's willing to hear what I say.

So you always have exceptions to that rule.

We're not in, I, we use the stereotype as, as a way to kind of see something, but I'm

not saying that I will never speak to a 65 year old male.

Right.

Um, if I think of an 18 year old boy, that's probably a similar gap too.

Like there's a wide gap there for me to speak unless it's like a friend to my son or my son

himself, you know?

So, uh, depending on your ministry, your talents, your gifts, where God has placed you, the ministry

he's put in your heart, there will be people with a shorter gap towards you than others.

And so all I'm, I need, I can start with saying, okay, for some people will be really hard to

actually want to sit down with me and talk.

And so who's sitting there, who do you see?

And the more I can humanize that vision, the easier it will be for me to speak to them.

It's interesting.

What now, I mean, you're talking about who's at the table, who do you, who do you have?

And, and, you know, let's, let's talk, let's talk about the planters.

Like most of the, the, the planters, the people that are coming and starting digital churches,

like they, they have a target audience in mind that, that really comes from their vision,

their dreams, their desires.

Um, like, is that, is that selfishly motivated?

Should we be looking at who our connections are instead of who we want them to be?

Should we, you know, desire to, to change and recruit?

Like, how, how do we feel that tension of who we want to become, who we want our church

to be maybe on a planting perspective, and then who we're actually getting at this point?

Like, you know, and even just confession.

I felt this with the church digital where, you know, a lot of, a lot of our move to discord

was to try to reach a different demographic.

We were reaching a lot of, well, people that look like me, uh, to be honest, mid forties

with, you know, bald, um, and we wanted to move away from the mid 40 bald looking guy.

I mean, I'm kind of attractive, I think, but you know, I'd, I'd rather see some, some younger

faces.

And so like, is that, is that selfishly motivated?

How do, how do we feel that tension and even balance who we are versus who we want to

be?

Yeah.

Uh, I, I do believe that God plants those seeds.

Like I believe that he's going to give you a passion, a vision, uh, for a group of people.

Uh, and, uh, it's, it's so amazing for me to see how, uh, the level of connection, it's

not necessarily just based on age.

Now I'll be honest, there is like, well, we got like, uh, let's put a name to it, like

the golden ratio or whatever the golden range.

So there's a, uh, um, a 10, like if you look at somebody that is 10 years younger, 10 years

older than you, there's a greater chance that they, there would be a connection there.

Uh, just naturally, because there is not like, you know, just think of generational gaps to

begin with.

So naturally, if you're, let's just go to the traditional church.

If you get, if you have a pastor that is 52, there's a good chance, a big chunk of the

congregation will be 42 to 62 naturally.

Does that mean they can't attract other people?

No, they can.

Sometimes you have a second pastor that is younger, or this person is transitioning from

somebody else, but naturally, so the least, like the path with least resistance will be

somebody 10 years younger, 10 years older.

That is a fact.

It's very natural that even your friends group will be similar to what I'm describing, but

we can connect with people from different places than just our age, right?

So you can find connections based on key human desires, based on stages of life, based on

affinity.

Uh, and so there are ways to create your church, your movement, your ministry based on something

else that is not age.

I think age affects it, but I don't think it defines it.

Yeah.

Uh, white, white beard sharing a comment right now in the, in the chat.

I don't know if you can see that you can click on the, uh, chat bubble in the upper right

hand corner to, to get connected with that.

By the way, we're doing this live.

I probably said that, but white beard, uh, which is so true.

I look old, but speak to a younger audience.

Um, and, and so like, you know, some of us are capable of that.

Um, I don't know if I, I don't know if I do, to be honest, like I would, I mean, I've even

in, in, in the movement of what we're doing here with the church digital, like I, we, we

do, there are younger people that are, but you know, I don't, I don't know that I'm

like as, as much as white beard is the target to kind of do what, what he's able to do and

build those relationships.

Um, or at least I'm sensitive to the fact that, you know, I look the way that I look.

Um, what, um, as we're, and one of the things that I love that you did for us is, is really

helped us, um, you know, recognize who we are, are reaching, who we wanted to reach and

then simplify everything that we were doing that, that was misaligned.

And there was, you know, historically, you know, within the church digital, and this is

my fault because I want to make everybody happy.

Um, you know, we were, we were kind of all over the place, but the reality is, is that

we needed to, to really align that and bring that down.

Um, how, how do we, how do we get to that place?

You know, and I'm even talking physical churches that, um, really struggle with that, you know,

trying to, they do everything for everyone.

And that's kind of the, the approach towards that.

And once again, that may work physically, but digitally there's challenges to that.

So, um, how, how do we kind of resolve and get past, not just recognizing who our audience

is, but narrowing down the focus of what we're actually doing to only target that audience.

Is that even the right play?

Yeah.

So, uh, I use, uh, food metaphors often.

So forgive me if you guys haven't had any lunch yet.

Uh, but have you ever been to Haagen-Dazs?

As a diabetic?

Not really, not lately.

No, thank you.

I do know what you're talking about historically.

Yes.

Well, one of my, one of my aunts, she used to work for Haagen-Dazs and her job was to

go to places like the Dominican Republic and try the ice cream.

Uh, and so that was, that was her job.

Like she, she would literally, so she would fly to all of their resorts and whatever, whatever,

and just try the ice cream.

And so that was her job.

But, you know, one of the things about Haagen-Dazs is that this is, there's like all of these luxurious,

like very, like, you know, uh, flavors and, you know, mixtures and whatever.

And, uh, I used to fight my kids because I was like, I will forbid you from going to Haagen-Dazs

and picking vanilla.

There's just, I know, like, I'm not spent, like, you're going to pick a flavor that really

like guys, like elevate your design, you know, like ice cream experience.

You know what I mean?

That's really expensive for a plane.

There's got to be something better.

We're not going for vanilla.

Like I refuse.

Like if you want vanilla, get McDonald's, whatever thing, if the machine is working, but you know,

like we're not doing that.

So, um, but there, there's this one story and I wish I could quote it correctly, but I can't

remember even who said it, but if you were to send 10 people to an ice cream store, to a

Haagen-Dazs, and if you were to say, you all have to agree on you, you have free ice cream

for life, but you all have to agree on a flavor.

They would all come back with vanilla.

Who goes to a Haagen-Dazs for vanilla?

Nobody.

Right.

And so I need you to think of this from this angle.

As soon as you have two audiences, you have to lose something.

And so instead of giving something, you're actually going to lose something of who you

are, of your gifts, of your talents, of your resources.

And so what I want you to think is I need to operate at the maximum of my ability and the

maximum of my ability is a talent, a specific way of speaking, a specific way of ministering,

a specific way of serving that in some cases, it's not like it's excluding people, but it's

so intentional to a group of people that their option is none, but to say yes.

And so what you're doing is you're accelerating the path towards somebody.

I'll describe it this way.

You have to think that any ministry has, you know, picture those in the airport, you

have those like moving, moving pathways, how do you call them?

Yeah.

So the moving walkways.

So imagine that they're moving walkways coming towards you at a very slow pace.

So you have people, they will find you somehow.

Maybe they will hear from somebody.

Maybe they'll find you on Google.

There's something that is going to bring them to you at a slow pace.

And you have the chance to accelerate one of these paths, which ones you want to accelerate.

So just imagine you have a wrench and you can go and you can say, there's this one, one of

these paths I can accelerate.

And that's where you put your intentionality.

So I'm not slowing down the other ones.

They're still coming to me, but they're coming at the pace they're coming, but I'm speeding up

the process for one of them to find us.

And so that's what we did for the church digital.

We said, there's this one group and we're going to make a path that is so clear for them to

cross that they would not look to the left or to the right.

It would be very clear.

And so when you make one of these paths clear, you will see more movement towards you.

And then once you have, you know, if this one is working, then you can think about a second

path and the third path and a fourth path.

But otherwise, you're just going to be diluting your efforts.

To do that, to do that, we had to sacrifice, you know, some, some stuff.

And it's interesting, you know, Whitebeard's even referencing that in chat.

He's like, I, I, he's, I will draw a younger crowd because I use EDM as worship music.

Now, if you don't know Whitebeard, Whitebeard is, Whitebeard works every December at Santa

Claus.

He is the, the Christian version of, of ZZ Top and, and he's like, and I will, and it

turn, it will turn off older people, but he's okay with that.

That's what he's saying.

So, so here's a guy in his Whitebeard.

How old are you actually?

I would probably say mid sixties, 56, sorry, 56.

And, but he is very much kind of like that, that's, you know, seventies rocker guy mindset

with the, with the long, literally that he told me at one point his beard.

Heard was over 12 inches long.

I forget.

And that was a 14 inches long.

And, and so this is not the guy when he's like younger audience, he's, he's like walking

around the art district in, in Tampa, which is called Ybor city and, and wearing a monk

outfit and doing like street ministry with people.

And that's like how he, he operates, which is not, you know, typically what you would see

for somebody like that.

Literally, literally he's Whitebeard punk monk because he breaches punks with,

or punk music and looks like a monk when he does it.

And, um, like there's a sacrificial piece of that, right?

Like the, the people that are involved in his ministry, people that look like him and maybe

supporting him aren't maybe as engaged in EDM music as much as the, the audience that they're

trying to reach.

And Jeff, I think that we forget that every decision we make is either bringing people

closer or further away from you, every decision.

So it doesn't matter what you pick.

Like if you're picking Twitch versus Facebook, those two are digital, you know, that decision

alone is going to bring some people faster and it will, you know, slow down, um, what other

people will, how fast they will come to you.

So the channels you pick the, your theology, your personality, some people will have like,

Oh man, this person is just too much for me.

Like, you know, over the top.

And some people will be like, Oh, this person is just too boring.

Like too monotone.

I was a part of a discipleship group.

I'm not going to say the name out loud, but I was a part of the discipleship group that

happens at 7 PM.

So it was like, after the day was over.

And let me tell you, I would watch the recordings at 2X, you know, like two times faster.

And it was still slow for me.

So you can imagine what it felt like in real person.

Everybody was just like, and I'm, you know, I just need a faster energy.

Nothing wrong with the group.

It was phenomenal.

The teachings, like everything about it was great, but, but it was just a different rhythm

that I could handle personally, just my personal preference.

And so you're going to see that there, whatever decisions you make, and for other people, it

will be too fast.

I have a cohort where we're launching a learning community on communications, which is similar

content that I teach in a, in a, another cohort.

And, uh, you know, you will run it in some point and people will be like, yeah, I wish

you could participate more.

And then the next time you run it and people will be like, I don't like to be on, you know,

put on the spot.

And I was like, okay, either you participate, like which one, you know?

So every decision you make is already making people say yes or no.

The only thing I'm giving you is permission to own it.

So you're basically saying when I make this decision, I'm making an intentional decision

to accelerate the path for this person.

And so you have control over it.

Take control, be intentional with what you're building and you will see faster results.

And it's, it's so awesome when you see some of those results come in, you know, when you,

when you, you limit, you limit your focus and, and, uh, you get, you know, quote unquote

conversions when, when the, when the CTA works and, and, you know, it does that.

And, you know, we, we, at a personal level, we saw that happen, you know, in a big way

with, uh, with the discord.

And so driving, uh, you know, the initial email that, that I sent out the note from Jeff,

um, you know, that went out to our database and, and seeing, you know, a lot of those,

those, uh, people come on.

We had, I mean, it looks like we've, we've netted almost a hundred people, um, since that

initial went out and like engagement, the community has been, been really good on discord,

but there was, there was one guy that, that, to be honest, that day, it just kind of like,

it felt like it was everybody else, like coming in.

It was a name I didn't recognize, but to be honest, the database is so big.

Like, I don't, I don't keep taps with everybody.

And I thought, oh, I just met this guy at a conference or something.

And, um, he was, he was from another country, but he was really engaging and meeting and talking

with people on their own.

And then, um, you know, on, on my calendar, I, I see a meeting pop up that's with this

guy.

Well, actually I didn't realize it was this guy.

It's just a meeting popped up.

Um, we, we, and this is, you know, one of Barbara's pet projects and the things that

she was really excited about with the website launch, she pioneered this idea of doing a

church planting assessment where there was a series of questions.

And, uh, if you score kind of okay, like there's call to actions and there's, there's steps

for you to take.

If you score pretty well, then there's other steps and actions to take.

And, and if you scored like freaking incredible, um, you know, you're, you're, you know, one

on one meeting with me at some point and there's, there's a link to schedule that and we can

talk through it.

And so by the way, Barbara and, uh, uh, JMO came up with the questions and, and, you know,

launched that.

And, uh, and so sure enough, this guy from another country, um, walks into this meeting

with me and, um, and so I just, you know, started having a conversation.

Who are you?

What's going on?

Oh yeah, you're on discord.

That's great.

Tell me your story.

Oh, you're already in the server.

That's awesome.

I didn't realize that.

Um, you know, tell me, tell me who you are.

And, um, his story like literally was the example of the story of the person we worked,

we were targeting.

Like it was, um, he, uh, we wanted to do a digital church, uh, his, his physical church

didn't approve, mocked him for it.

He was searching on Google, trying to find community.

He found the church digital.

One of the videos that I did, cause he was looking up micro sites on YouTube, watch that,

um, and, uh, woke up and was new of us like for a month was kind of on the outskirts in

the crowd and, uh, and he says he went back to the website, the church digital, you know,

as he was just searching around and he noticed it was a new website and the website had a

clearer focus to really target that planting, the community, creating community, uh, in a

network for like a like-minded people.

And, uh, and that's where he did the assessment.

He booked the meeting with me same day.

He jumped in the community.

Sorry, me like it was, it was the, this is the guy that, that we literally like, I don't

know, Saddleback calls it Saddleback Sam.

It's like the target audience.

It's, it's like the, the, the paradigm, uh, that we aimed.

And, um, you know, it's like, I sat back, I was like, crap, it worked.

You know, we, it's like, we, we sacrificed all this stuff to, to really narrow down to who

do we want to be and who we wanted to be.

It actually worked.

And, and he's, he's engaging in community and dialoguing and other people are having meetings

with him and, and, and it's really, we're connecting with other people.

And it's like, oh my gosh, like this, this whole digital communications thing can actually

work when there's intentionality.

Um, it hurts when you have to excuse, but it hurts when you have to cut, but the payoff is

worth it.

Right.

She is choked up with emotion or something.

Um, yeah, that, that is so good.

Um, she is, uh, we're trying to find them and they're praying to find us.

And that, that was true, uh, with this situation.

This guy, you know, shared the story of how he was literally Googling, trying to find, and,

and I've had hundreds of those conversations over the years, I've got some crazy idea.

My pastor thinks I'm nuts.

My friends have no idea how to support me.

My wife's not even sure if like, this is legit.

Um, you know, and, and hundreds, uh, hundreds of calls ago was like, that's a great idea.

You should totally try it.

Now it's like, Hey, that's a great idea.

I know three people that are doing something similar.

Would you like to meet them?

And so it's, um, it's, it's interesting to see how the, you know, the crazies are getting

validated and, uh, and God's kind of making those some connections in place.

And, you know, Jeff, there's, um, there's power in speaking their language.

We have to acknowledge that we're all looking for that.

We're all looking for people that are speaking our language, uh, and, uh, there's, there's

so much power in being clear with the language that we're utilizing because that's the first

thing they will, they will connect with.

Uh, and so I was telling you, like, there are people out there praying that something like

TCD exists.

And so there's people out there praying that there's something like the church that you want

to plant.

They're praying about it.

They're asking God to help them find an expression of faith or church like that.

And, uh, God has placed that desire in you, has placed that desire in your, in your, in

your spirit.

And so he's going to equip you to do it.

Now, imagine if you have a, um, you know, we, okay, I'm going to, again, I'm going to

go back to food.

Yeah.

We used to have this restaurant in Annapolis.

I may be still there.

Uh, and they sell Thai food and donuts.

Now, when you think of those two together, it's like, that's not a common connection, right?

And so, first of all, here's my assumption.

They're neither good at Thai food or donuts.

And it was the best donuts in town.

I just never figured it out.

Why?

Because in my mind, I would not look for that when I was looking for donuts.

And I would not assume that that was a place for donuts because there's a, there's a mix

and match of things that just does, they just don't go together.

Uh, and, um, for real, they were the best donuts in town.

And I lived in Annapolis for several years and never knew about it until we're about to

leave.

And so it was like, how come it never occurred to me to even try?

Like, I'm not saying like, you know, but it didn't occur for me to even try.

So when people are looking for what they need and your message is Thai food and donuts, they

won't trust the Thai food or the donuts.

And you have to remember that be as clear as you can, as much as you can.

And I said this and I repeated like nobody has ever narrowed down too much.

Uh, you know what?

That is something I, I want, I want you to, to speak to that.

That was, um, impactful for me.

Um, I, my, my initial reaction to that was that's a pile of crap.

Um, and, but I, I really, I really had to, I'm just gonna be honest.

Like I had to really internalize that and wrestle with it, you know, and there's even in digital

communication, you try to reach everybody.

You reach nobody when you only try to reach a certain person, you reach a ton of them.

And so it's like, I know that principle, but it really is.

It's, it's, it's the weight of, okay, I'm going to have to cut off, um, by, by focusing

in, uh, I'm letting go.

And so when, when, when you're like, you know, nobody, nobody niches down, nobody targets

down, uh, nobody's disappointed by that.

It's like, oh my gosh.

Like, cause that's, cause it's, it's, it's, it's the, it's the price of, of releasing.

It's, it's the trust of, okay, there's going to be something better.

Um, I have to do, I have to release in order to receive.

Um, that's hard.

Like that is not something that, that is easy for, especially in established organizations.

Like planters would have an easier problem with that.

An established church.

Oh yeah, no, no, no.

This will work.

Like we try to reach everybody.

We just do it digitally.

We'll do it on Facebook.

No problem.

Uh, but it doesn't, it doesn't work.

And so like, talk about that and talk about maybe the cost of, of what it feels like to,

to let go and dealing with that.

So let's talk about costs because, uh, we think that the cost is when we say no, but the real

cost is when we say yes.

So if I say no to one thing, I'm saying no to one thing, but if I'm saying yes to one

thing, I'm saying no to 10 things.

Does that make sense?

Every yes you say is a no to a bunch of other things.

And so I had to, I had to go through that process myself as well of thinking every yes, I say,

okay, yeah, I'm going to serve that group.

Oh yeah.

I'm going to serve that group.

Oh yeah.

I'm going to do that thing.

Every yes that I'm saying, there's no's that automatically are created because of when I'm

doing this, I can't do those other 10 things.

And so every yes is actually more no's.

So, uh, I, that was a moment of freedom that gave me permission to continue to be as narrow

as I possibly could.

Now, um, this, this idea of being narrow will also create a new concept, which is the idea

of being viral for you.

Everybody thinks we need to be viral.

We need to be big.

We need to be gigantic.

We need to be expanding.

We need to be like, yes, growth is good.

I believe God is the one that takes care of that growth.

What I need you to do is say, I'm going to be so visible in a group of people that nobody

will ever say, I didn't hear about you.

I didn't know about you.

And so it's viral for you viral in a small, a smaller setting than out in the world.

Because if you're trying to be everything for everybody, you're basically going to have

to be visible in different places.

But if you're trying to be visible for a group of people, you can become more known

and visible to that group without having to worry about the rest.

And so you can become viral within a small setting.

But the other example is, again, my kids give me so many examples.

Chuck E. Cheese.

You guys have been to Chuck E. Cheese?

And you have that machine where they basically put the kid inside and they fly all those tickets

and the kid has to grab as many tickets as they can.

Okay.

What do kids do?

They try to catch all the tickets they can.

And all I'm thinking is like, dude, stop, see the flow of wind and put your hands like this.

It's like, just see how the tickets are rotating.

Stop right there.

Put your hands.

And then when they come, you grab a bunch at once.

Right.

And so this sense of lack of movement at times is what we cannot handle.

Because when you're narrow, you're going to be doing less and most people can't handle that.

Because we're so like, we got to run, we got to grab, we got to.

And so you're trying, but then the kid comes out and is like, well, I grabbed five tickets.

Well, yeah, because your effort to reach one made you lose the next one and made you lose the next one.

Where if you stop and you were visible in that one place that God has designed for you, he will move the wind to bring the tickets to you.

That's it.

Wow.

That's a lot of faith.

That's it.

And that's what we're seeing.

That's powerful stuff.

We're seeing God bring to us the people that need the very thing that you've developed.

And so there is a need.

God knows about that need.

He's answering that need.

But we're simply saying we're not going to leave our spot.

We're going to stay right here on this lane so that we can be visible to this group faster than we would normally be visible to them.

Man, it's just so much right there.

How do we?

So let me add one more thing that I think could, again, we need to take this to the practical side of things.

Because it's like, okay, Barbara, great concepts, but how do we actually do those things?

It's like, and so here's what I have found to be true is that I can only control a few things.

I cannot control the growth.

I cannot control what people do, but I can control where I'm visible, how I'm visible, and how frequently I'm visible.

I can say, hey, I'm going to show up on Discord.

I'm going to show up as a person of peace, and I'm going to show up frequently.

I'm going to show up every week.

I'm going to show up every day.

I'm going to show up once, whatever.

So you can control these three things, where you show up, how you show up, and how frequently you show up.

And so I cannot be in 25 platforms at once the same way that I can be in one or two.

I also should have clarity on who I am when I show up in those groups.

So for me, I want to be the person that reveals the heartbeat of the people around me.

That's kind of like the movement behind me.

It's like I want to be the person that reveals the heartbeat.

Like I want to be able to see it and bring it to the surface.

So when you think of your ministry, what do you want people to see in you?

What do you want them to see?

What's the story you want them to tell about you?

And all you have to do is you show up where they are as that person as frequently as you can.

Those are the things you can control.

It's interesting because you're recognizing that different platforms have different target audiences.

And as you're engaging with those platforms, it's not omni-channel where you're just broadcasting the same thing across all of them.

It's more targeted communications and so targeted communications, you're more intentionally focused on your message and what you're presenting at that time on that platform versus how you're represented in other platforms and moving forward.

You know, it's interesting.

Like that concept, that's actually, you know, Seth Godin wrote a book like Quitter or Loser or something back in the day.

It's a really small book, but actually I read that when I was running a Christian bookstore at the time and I read that book and I was like, all right, I need to shut down my business.

Like it was like just this complete focus, the shift of the book because it was, I mean, basically the premise of the book is if you're not the best at what you do, then you need to find what you're the best at and go do that because everything else is going to be a distraction.

And, you know, and this book was like 2007, but he was talking about how like in digital space, it's such a niche focus that unless you're standing out, that going back to your big fish in a small pond versus a small fish in a big pond, like that's how you're going to connect.

Um, you know, I remember I did when I first cast vision to some of my friends for the church digital, um, I, I said, um, I said to a guy named, he was an executive pastor of the church I used to work at and that he wasn't there anymore either.

But I cast vision to, you know, church digital, what are you doing?

I was like, oh no, I want to help, you know, every church, you know, understand digital strategy or some, some vague, something like that.

And, uh, he, he was like, Jeff, there's 300,000 churches.

And I was like, yeah, sure.

That's, that's the vision.

And he's like, it was so funny.

It wasn't Jeff.

That's not achievable.

Jeff.

That's not Jeff.

You know, like he didn't, he says, Jeff, honestly, that just sounds boring.

And I was like, what do you, what do you, what do you mean?

And it's really started to unpack.

It's like, no, Jeff, if you're going to, if you're going to stand out, it's not everybody.

It's, it's, it's somebody in it, in its individuals.

And that really, that was the early birth and been involved in like movements, international movements overseas and, and, uh, you know, really seeing God, God move.

And it was, was much more about an individual than, than, than something in mass.

And, and really when I look at some of these movements digitally, it's the, it's the, it's the guys like Mark that are like, Hey, I'm reaching gamers.

And when grandma comes along, that's great, but I'm not targeting grandma.

I'm re I'm reaching gamers.

And when the gamer's wife comes along, that's great, but I'm really targeting gamers.

And, um, and, and like, those are the guys and the gals that are successful right now.

The ones, at least in planting, the ones that are, are targeted towards that.

And, and honestly, like that's been a really difficult pill for the established church to swallow because they're so used to, well, we just want to, you know, get the extra 20% digitally of what we're already doing physically.

Um, you know, put the stream on Facebook and we'll engage with people and that will work to some level.

But the amount of energy that you're putting in that compared to, you know, it's something more targeted.

Like it's just difficult to get an established church to maybe understand some of these principles.

It is.

It's shifting.

It's a Titanic.

Oh, that's interesting dynamic right there.

The Titanic, um, stay away from the iceberg that that's looming.

That's, that's interesting.

One of the things, you know, that, that you've been, and I just want to even touch base on this a little bit as my insurance company calls me to talk with me again.

Um, one of the things that I would love to, to talk with you about, um, you know, one of the things that we're talking about as an organization is, is funding and, and fundraising.

And that was actually a meeting that we had this morning and Barbara, you were very, um, impassioned, uh, about, uh, some of the, the challenges and opportunities for that.

And, you know, it's interesting organizationally, as we're trying to deal with funding, I know at the planning level, every planter we talk with is, is dealing with the same funding issues.

And, and, you know, part, part of me is, uh, as the, you know, a guy that's kind of helping with this movement and working with a lot of our plot of planters is, man, I'd love to figure out even.

How to like solve the problem for everybody.

I don't know if that's officially my problem and that's something I'm praying about, but that's like part of me as the, Hey, I want to make everybody happy as well.

Let's, let's not solve it just for us.

Let's solve it for everybody.

What do we need to do?

Um, but you know, you, you really had some interesting perspectives talking about funding.

And so, man, I would love to get some of, some of that insight from you right now, because so many of the people listening to this are dealing with the same things.

I want to start with a concept that has to do with your movement.

I believe everybody has a movement in them, uh, especially ministries.

Like if God has placed, um, a desire in your heart, it's a movement that he's planted.

And so, um, that movement in itself is designed to move, right?

It's designed to grow and expand and, and cause something beyond yourself.

And so you, you may be the recipient of that idea, but it's supposed to go beyond you.

And some of us don't know how to, how to make that movement portable.

And, uh, I think one of the, there's two pieces.

One is language and one is clarity.

So I have to have clarity on what this movement is.

And I need to have language attached to it that makes it portable.

And so when I say, Hey, we're going to validate churches and digital spaces.

Um, Jeff is not the only person that can do it because other people can embrace that vision and they can do it in different settings, in different times, in different platforms, in different ways that will extend this movement of validating churches and digital spaces.

And so you, we need to make our movements portable.

The ages of vision and mission statements, I think is behind us.

Those are good.

Do them.

It helps.

But we need to start putting together language that is easy to move.

It needs to move fast and easy.

And so why, because even in your fundraising, even in your growing of your team, even in your, whatever kind of expansion, you will, you will depend on people that want to live out that same movement.

And so people that will fund you will fund you because they want to be a part of something and we have to give them the language for it.

Uh, you will exhaust your friends.

If you're just asking for money to get your ministry going, like that's going to be exhausted very fast.

But if you have people, if you give them clarity about what you're doing, uh, they can then join you because there's clarity on what they are doing, what their money is achieving.

And so I think we need to start there, clarify what your movement is, put language to it.

That is simple.

A 10 year old could understand the idea of validating churches and digital spaces.

Yeah.

So somebody young could actually be like, yeah, I want to be a part of that.

Right.

So it's portable.

Your language has to be portable.

Your message has to be portable.

Um, and then when, when I think of specifically fundraising, uh, first of all, it will be based on vision casting.

Like you have to cast vision for something.

And sometimes we don't know how to cast vision.

And, and the, the, the, um, a lot of the ideas behind vision casting are missing a great component of just storytelling.

And so when I cast vision for something, our brains are wired from storytelling.

We need to tell what is the A, what is the B and how are we moving people from A to B?

The church digital has a specific role of moving people from running alone, trying to create a church and digital spaces to actually doing it and not alone.

And so if I can help, if I can communicate that, Hey, we're validating their visions, we're resourcing them and we're moving them from operating alone, trying to figure things out to actually doing it with a community of people supporting them.

Now you're telling a story, a story of transformation from A to B.

People will connect emotionally, by the way, money moves through emotions.

Yeah.

So all of our purchases and donations are done from an emotional standpoint.

And so I need to attach a story to it.

I think there's also, there's, there's a lot of challenge it to, um, I mean, when you say portable, it's interesting.

Like, I almost want to unpack that word.

What, what, what that means.

Like, is that, um, like multiplying, getting others to own the vision, getting it, you know, not beyond just me.

Like I, you know, I know, you know, flat caps in here and, you know, I, I can remember times where, you know, I was like, Hey, this is something I want to do.

And flat caps, like, no, you don't.

That goes against everything you believe.

And it tells me my own words back at me.

Why?

That's a stupid idea.

You know, you know, Barbara, you eloquently describing, you know, some of the, the, the ideas better than I can, you know?

Like that's, that's an idea of portable that's multiplying that's, that's bringing along.

Um, and really like that's, it's interesting.

I was just watching a Ted video.

I put a Ted video in, in one of the discord channels with our, our movement leaders just recently.

And it's, it's the, um, I forget what it's called, but it's the one, you know, I'll put it in the show notes too, but it's the one with, um, the crazies, the guy, the three guys dancing at the con at the concert where it's like one guy's the movement leader and he's doing whatever he wants.

Uh, but nobody, nobody goes until, you know, the second guy joins him.

And, and really like the first guy being the leader, the movement leader, but it's really that number two guy that starts to bring everybody.

Number two comes on and then number three joins number two.

And when number three joins, then it's, it's pandemonium.

Like the crowd breaks out and everybody starts dancing, you know, and it's, it's that the first guy being an idiot, um, is one thing, but the second guy being strong enough to be an idiot with the first guy.

Like in some ways that number two is, is really the, the movement maker.

The first guy is just the visionary.

Um, and you know, so often when I talk with digital churches, it's, they don't have, uh, like it's, it's them on their own, you know, just investing and working hard.

Like, uh, you know, talking about Mark, Mark, Mark early on connected with Andy, Mark and Mark was actually really good from day one.

Like I just working with him of, Hey, I, this isn't going to be alone.

You know, we even see, even with me, I don't want this to be Jeffrey.com.

I want the church digital to be bigger and better.

And let me tell you, like the team that, the team that we've got now, like this blows me away.

Like there's, they're doing stuff I can't do.

Uh, and so, but it's, it's seeing, um, the ideas mature beyond.

And then all of a sudden, like you're, you're doing things beyond just you, which to me, I think is more attractive to people more than the friends.

Like if I'm just doing a bunch of stuff for me, I'm going to the friends and trying to, to get the nickels and dimes and 25 bucks a month and doing that.

Um, my, yeah.

And my, my hope is by making it bigger than you, um, then the opportunities start to become that, that are bigger than that.

You know, I think God, um, rewards the diligence of, of the discipleship of the multiplication of the portability of this.

God, God, God moves.

God is not a stale God.

You know, if you look at the old Testament, the new Testament, it's a story of God moving and growing and expanding.

It's, it's not, Hey God, you know, I'm just going to stay here in the garden of Eden.

We're going to hang out here in perfectness.

And so I, I love this.

I don't use the word portable like the, you do, um, but you've said it multiple times.

And then now I'm like, maybe I need to pick it up because I do think it, it describes something different than multiplication.

Cause I was thinking, Oh, she means multiplication.

I need to get her to say multiplication, but it's like, no portability.

It's, it is different.

There, there is, there is a multiplication is, is the discipleship.

This is a little more than discipleship.

It's a little different than discipleship.

I don't know what it's for, but we can nuance that all day long.

I don't know that that's probably the best point for today.

So, Hey, listen, you are doing, uh, a learning community through the church digital.

I, I, I talked about this up in the, in the introduction, but the church digital is doing

five different learning communities, um, this summer.

Um, one is going to be on church communications.

And so why don't you take a moment here and just share with us a little bit what the learning

community is going to look like and, and, um, give people some detail.

So it's, uh, we start very similar to this type of foundational pieces that I'm talking

about.

So understanding who can you serve?

Well, who you are, your, your own DNA as a ministry, uh, capture your movement, give

it some language, uh, and then you can build communication plans based on that.

So if there's another COVID that comes, another platform that starts, another TikTok that goes

away, your strategy will remain like your vision will remain.

It will just take a different shape.

And so instead of building a plan that is just like, okay, here's a bunch of tactics that

we have to communicate.

I want you to have a foundation that basically says, this is who we are.

This is who we speak to.

And this is how much of a gap is there between us.

Everything else will kind of build from that.

So we'll equip you to basically know how to create your communication independent of your

size of how much you multiply versus not.

Like it would just equip you to do that anytime at any stage of your, of your ministry.

Love it.

Is it more aimed at, um, physical churches, more at planters?

I know we've got a mixed bag here, but what you're either when it's, it's still communication,

regardless of other principles.

That's, that's good stuff.

We're just thinking ministry.

So, uh, I think there is, uh, if some of, some of the things are easier to understand

if you are already have something in place.

Um, but, uh, because some of the questions like, uh, you will be more in the guesstimation

side of things, right?

So when I'm asking you like, okay, who are you serving?

And you're just kind of starting.

You may not have a lot of data, but I, I'll enable you to basically say, okay, I'm going

to create some, uh, avenues to allow data to come to me as I, as I reach, uh, my audience

out there.

So, um, I would say ministry.

So it's specifically designed for ministries, how it's expressed.

It's up to you.

You can have it as a home church, as a big church, as a whatever.

Flat caps asking, um, in, in chat, non-profits, uh, non-profit ministries, I would suggest

something Christ-based, you know, I, I think we, we can, we can speak to and address.

And so, yeah, like, I think there's opportunities to really sit down and, and address the communications,

uh, challenges.

Um, you know, I, it's being, you know, into this with Barbara, I, I've, at a personal level,

I trust her intimately, you know, ex, uh, exquisitely, like it's been a great relationship.

Um, Barbara has challenged me.

She's made me better, um, as, as a, as a leader, um, and the organization, you know, I, I said

this at some point, like, I, I can definitely tell you the value of Barbara because I know

how much we struggled in, in communications and alignment and envision before, and she came

on and she righted the ship and, uh, things have been, been flying.

Um, you know, I mean, to be honest, the challenge of 2024 and beyond is, you know, us keeping

up, um, with some of the opportunities it's, it's, we went, you know, this is the challenge.

You go more narrow and you're like, oh, this is going to be less, but less ends up being

more in the opportunities of going narrow, because now you're the big fish in the small

pond and people are looking for small ponds and are looking for big ponds.

Uh, Sears Robach is dead.

Like, you know, you can go to a mall and malls are declining.

Like it's, it's not somewhere where I can get everything.

It's how do I deal with niche?

And so, uh, you know, that really, and that hurts because that goes counter-cultural to,

to our physical churches.

Um, but when you look at, you know, some of our, uh, friends internationally and some of

the lessons they're learning in post-Christian, post-church environments, um, niche is the way

to go because the buildings, to be honest, you know, in England, those are their museums.

Um, you know, in some of these, some of these countries, they are, they're shut down.

Like there's, there's, I tell the stat in, in London, Christmas Eve, 2023, more people

went to, uh, bars than to church buildings.

Like that's, that's just the reality of, of where some of our, our friends are internationally.

And, you know, I believe, you know, I had breakfast with a friend of mine today.

Um, you know, and I, I get told all the time, Jeff, you're ahead of the curve, Jeff, you're

ahead of your time, Jeff, you're, you know, we're, we're not there yet.

And, uh, I do, I do believe, you know, I, I think, I think the idea of, um, what we're

doing now is, is early.

Um, but it's to me, you know, and I, Mark, it was funny when we're talking about the three

idiots dancing, I was idiot.

Number one, talking about digital church and, uh, and Mark Lutz, Mark Lutz was idiot number

two with Lux digital church.

And, uh, and I, I literally, I remember sending him the video and telling you are idiot number

two.

Um, and we had, we had idiot number three and we had, had it all scripted out what, what

the plan was, but it really is, you know, even telling Mark years ago when he started,

um, Mark, I need you to succeed.

So the next generation will succeed.

Like it's, it's, to me, it's, it's not even about getting these, we're talking with a guy

in Germany, um, Simon, he's been on the podcast and he's one of our movement leaders now.

And, and he's like, um, he asked, he's like, how many, how many, uh, digital churches are

there in America?

And, you know, flat cap was on there and Andy, and they're like, well, we've got three over

here and five over here and seven doing this.

And this guy on Facebook and, and I was like, look, it's, it's 50 plus or minus, like, you

know, there's, and there's stuff going on.

We don't know about, um, you know, that that's not a, not of our purview.

And, um, and that's, that's exciting.

That's pioneering pioneers get shot.

Um, but it really is about how can we create a model for that next generation?

How can we make these ideas, you know, Barber's language portable, uh, so that it can be

carried on and, and, and multiple multiplied throughout.

What does that vision look like so that it can be reproduced and contextualized because,

um, Mark's going to reach the gamers, but what about the non-gamers?

Um, and so like, it's bigger than just what Mark is doing or even bigger than what I'm doing.

And so it's been so exciting, um, to really dig into that with, uh, with Barbara.

So check out the learning community and, uh, the information is at, uh, the church.digital

slash learning hyphen communities.

We'll put that link in the show notes as well.

The church.digital slash learning hyphen communities.

And, um, you'll see all the little 8-bit characters and information on all five communities.

Andy's doing one.

I'm doing one on micro.

Andy's doing asynchronous, uh, metaverse with Stuart, Stunami.

Megan was in here in a little bit.

Megan Carter's doing one on, um, uh, mental health in the church and, uh, digital church

communications with Barbara.

And so, yeah, it's been great.

Hey, Barbara, as we're wrapping up here, any, any closing thoughts?

That's it, Jeff.

I'm just excited for what's ahead and, uh, really very, very excited that you danced first,

that somebody had the chance to do it.

Yeah, the, the, the courage to do it, you know?

Yeah.

Well, it was, uh, courage, yeah, courage, or I got kind of painted into the corner or

I saw a blue ocean.

It's like, oh, let's go swim over here.

And, uh, there were no sharks in the blue ocean.

And so I kind of stayed, but, uh, it definitely is fun.

I've got, you know, it's, it's, uh, I'll, I'll show this off because, you know, Barbara

was, uh, actually sent this to me.

I've, I've got a mug here.

She sent this to me maybe nine, 10 months ago last year when we first started talking

and, and, uh, it's custom mug, I think, but it's says the godfather of, uh, digital

churches.

And I've kind of just have kept that on my desk next to my, um, my retro, the church digital

mug, we don't have the current, but so I just, I keep that.

It's got like knickknacks and tools and crap in it.

But, um, um, yeah, listen, it's, it's exciting.

Um, it, as you're hanging out in discord, if you're not on discord, the, uh, discord.thechurch.digital

come over, um, as we're seeing the energy and engagement and meeting people and seeing

real connection, real conversations in a digital community and really starting to define what

a digital discipleship community can look like.

Oh my gosh.

It's so exciting to even dream some of the stuff we're talking about now for the future.

And by the future, I mean the next three months, the next six months.

Um, I believe God's going to do something great as a result of this.

So, Hey, we're going to land the plane.

Barbara, uh, thank you for what you do at the church digital.

Check out the learning community audience at home.

Uh, uh, miss, uh, Prisana Blackcap.

Thank you for being here on, on the stream with us and everybody else.

Thanks for hanging out.

Um, we do these occasionally on discord.

So the church.digital slash discord and get more information on live podcasts and open

offices and conversations and all the goofy stuff that we're doing here in the community.

So come hang out with us, open your web browser discord.thechurch.digital, and that'll get

you there.

All right.

For Barbara, this is Jeff with the church digital.

Thanks for hanging out with us.

We'll see you next time on the show.

Have a good one.