EP296 - Mental Health Ministry with Megan Carter

I don't know if you've noticed or looked, but a lot of professional counselors, therapists,

they're booked. It's hard to get into them a lot of times. And so either you have a waiting period

or you have a hard time finding one at all. And so having somebody that can sit down and listen

and talk to you, that's the biggest part to be able to just be there.

That can make a difference in someone's life, just being there.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the

technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address

deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital

mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does

the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast episode.

Wow. I probably should have looked that up in advance. I want to say this is 296.

Hello, Melanie. We're doing a live stream here for this recording. Whitebeard Punk Monk

does tell me it's 296. So anytime Whitebeard is in the Discord chat, he has several unofficial titles

with the Church Digital. Number one, he is the resident digital theologian. And so anytime there's

a theology question or like, dude, like I think he was alive during some of the Bible times. I'm not

publicly calling him out for being old, but his beard's long enough that he can totally pull off the

look. But more than that, he is also the fact checker, especially for the Church Digital Podcast,

because I make up crap all the time. And Whitebeard is always one to say yes or no, whether

it's true. I'm not saying he publicly calls me a liar, but privately he's like, dude, you may want

to like check that. And so I have to double back and repair it. Yeah, it does. He's like the Holy Spirit

and the devil kind of sitting on the devil, kind of sitting on the shoulders. Yeah. If you're watching

on YouTube and you're watching me kind of bounce up and down in the chair with two hands on my

shoulders, you know, you're seeing that. So Whitebeard is one of the two. I'll let him, he's both,

honest to God, I was about to say, I'll let him decide which one he wants to be. And so he says in

chat that he's both, which I'm actually okay with. And so, hey, the Church Digital Podcast brought to

you by Riverside. We are broadcasting, doing the stream live in Discord, which is why we're able

to interact with people in live. And then we're recording in the background. God bless the

technology. And so, you know, Riverside just continues to roll out stuff week by week. It's

unbelievable, this platform. So if you're not utilizing it, if Church, if you haven't looked at it

yet, thechurch.digital slash Riverside, be able to connect, record high quality video, remote

interviews, shorts, upload sermons for AI short production. Oh my gosh, there's so many features

in this thing. And so professional level software, check it out, thechurch.digital slash Riverside.

Hey, Simon walks in, Simon Dirks from Germany. And so from Beta Church.

As well as the, oh my gosh, Simon, I'm blanking on the name of your planting organization. I should

know this. Cloud Kirsch. I'm probably mispronouncing Kirsch. Kirsch. How do you say church in Germany?

Cloud Kirsch. That's right. So there you go. We're excited. Hey, I'll just say this. You know,

we're right now, we're actually merging Cloud Kirsch into TCD's Discord. And so there's going to

hopefully be an influx of Germans running around Discord, uh, hanging out with us and, and excited

to see, you know, the church digital. We are going into the season of, um, uh, international. Like

we're, we're talking with Simon. We're talking with, uh, Tope, Tope, you know, is doing some stuff in

Nigeria. Um, there's, uh, and there's other conversations internationally. This was funny.

I was actually for a completely, okay, Megan, you know me. It's like, Hey, Jeff, he's got like five,

six businesses, whatever. And so, um, you know, today I started, uh, or I was sitting down with a

guy, probably roll this out later, but at some point there's going to be another business we're

going to launch that's selling a product that I'm not able to talk about right now. Um, but,

but he was like, so like, what international connections do you have? And I was like,

and Simon, you're one of them. I'll just say that publicly. But I started rattling off like

six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different countries that, and like, his eyes got really big. Cause

I don't think he was expecting me to like, you know, and he's, he's like, you know, people I was

like, Oh, I was, Oh yeah. Like, I, I mean, I'm, I'm not saying I know Simon like on speed dial,

but if I'm like, Hey Simon, let's get on a call. Like he's going to do that. And, um, I'm not even

sure the product will work in Germany, which then he's like, Oh, I've got to figure out to make

sure this thing's international. It opened up this whole other can of war. And so it was awesome,

but I love the idea of, of, you know, the idea of discipleship, digital discipleship, you know,

and that's not a, that's not a product. That's a concept. And the fact that, you know, Simon's

wrestling with this internationally and the Tope is doing what he's doing internationally. And,

and, you know, even just today I was on with a call, um, with, with two separate organizations

that are, that are looking at utilizing gaming internationally. And so it's, it's how people are

really utilizing this digital tool to, to even get into third world areas and behind the iron

curtains and things like that. Speaking of that, Inyi Chukwu walks in, who's also from, um, Nigeria,

uh, Inyi Chukwu, correct me, Nigeria, I'm almost positive. And so, you know, I love the fact that the

church digital is, is moving more into this international state. And so, Hey, that's enough

of a commercial upfront. So we got episode 296, um, Megan Carter, um, who is, uh, is a hero and,

and a villain both at the same time in my life, a hero because she dives into, uh, mental health

and really has addressed that not just in digital ministry in the church overall, which is the heart

of this podcast that I want to get into a little bit. She's a villain though, because for some

reason she likes pirates more than ninjas. I knew that's where it was going. I, I, I, for the,

you know what, Megan, what's interesting. So if you've listened to episode 295, we had, um,

we had, uh, Stuart, we had Stunami on Stuart McPherson. Yes. Shut up white beard. Uh, and we

also had, that's funny. And we also had, um, uh, uh, Peyton, Peyton, I keep wanting to say Peyton

Manning, Peyton Jones, um, on, on the podcast, you know, church planter, extraordinaire training,

training people in 72 countries digitally on, on how to plant churches. Like Peyton's doing some

incredible stuff. Plantology author, the modern textbook for modern church planting. And, uh,

and so Peyton's a big ninja guy. Like he's his nicknames, the church planting ninja. He's literally

got the tattoo like ninja clan on his arm that being the GI Joe lore that snake eyes and, and, uh,

storm shadow have on their body. And so, you know, he's a ninja guy and, and Megan on the podcast was

rude enough to say publicly with white beard that, um, that ninjas suck and that, uh, pirates are

better. I'm not sure exactly said that, but I did say pirates all the way. Yeah. And, and I can take it

to be honest. Well, and here's the deal like, and, and I'm okay that Megan has this opinion. You know,

I'm feeling a bunch of negativity towards ninjas coming towards me with pirates and honest to God,

I'm looking at the room, the people that were in the stream. And I'm like, whatever Megan decides,

I'm going to say is going to be the decision. And then Megan's Megan says pirates. And I'm like,

what the crap, Megan, you sold me out. Like, why are you doing this to me? I was really upset,

but here's the truth, Megan. Like I have, I have asked, this is not an exaggeration in though it's

not even, maybe it's been a week. Maybe it's been, I think it was less than actually did that

interview Thursday. So it's been five days since we did that interview, had that conversation live

in real time. I've asked 20 people ninjas versus pirates to the T not one person of the 20

has said pirates. Like, I don't know what discord was smoking at that time. What a resident air was

flow air molecules were floating around the digital chat room that everybody was inhaling to get them

thinking that pirates were cool. But for whatever reason, everybody else has been like, why, why in

the world would you want to be a pirate? So white beards got some influence over everybody. I don't get

it. Megan, I will, I will shut up. I want your thoughts. I want your thoughts.

No, I, um, yeah, pirates all the way. Cause I, well, I grew up with pirates, the Caribbean,

um, Johnny Depp, like they're the first, like three movies were after the fourth one. It kind of

went off the rails a little bit, but, um, I can, I think I can watch the first one without any

sound and follow through. So you told me, I mean, I'm gonna call you out publicly.

Yeah. You've got a tattoo of, uh, referencing, uh, Captain Jack.

Yep. I have a sparrow on my shoulder, like kind of the back. Um, some people are like, Oh, it's the

sparrow. Like Jesus doesn't, you know, he always feeds the sparrows. And I'm like, yeah, it could mean

that. Um, but no, it was definitely for that. Uh, I've got those and some other Disney ones and

other favorite movies shows, but yeah. So it's, it's a sparrow. Not, not that God cares for you.

Uh, it's not the sparrow. I mean, he does, but that is not what it was. No, that was not the

intention. It's literally Captain Jack. Unbelievable. Yep. Yep. Well, Whitebeard is furiously typing

away at his keyboard with some, uh, uh, response angry that I'm calling out his, uh, his pirate

reference. I think he started. Yes. I said that you're fact checking me. I said the Holy Spirit's a

dove, not a sparrow. You don't need to correct that. Uh, but it is bird related. Okay. Um,

geez, uh, theologian and fact check at the same time, uh, Whitebeard's all over me. He, he owns

it. Okay. Um, well, Hey, Megan's on here. We're in episode, we're in season seven, uh, the season

not to be named because every name I come up with, I didn't like, but really what I'm featuring

here with season seven are a lot of the facilitators for the learning communities that the church

digital is putting on. And if you stuck around this long to talk about mental health in the church,

good for you. Like you, you survived, uh, 15 minutes of random garbage talking about sparrows

and tattoos and pirates and ninjas and all sorts of good stuff. But with, uh, with the learning

communities and you're probably acknowledging, Hey, that guy, Jeff does need mental health after,

uh, this, uh, some attention after this conversation. But, um, through the church digital,

we're doing five different learning communities, um, here this summer coming up. And so we're doing

season seven pirates be pirates. No, um, white, white beards really trying hard. At some point,

I got to like, you know, ignore that, but no, I'm kidding, man. You're awesome. I like, I love it.

I love the engagement in this stuff, but we're, we're doing five different learning communities.

And so information is at the church.digital slash LC for learning community, the church.digital letter L

letter C. And so you can pull up more information. Uh, Andy Mage is doing one on, um, asynchronous

communities, like how to do discord or slack, or even how to elevate your, your Facebook group to

another level, really digging into the power of digital communities, asynchronous communities.

Uh, Megan, of course is doing mental health. Uh, we've got, I'm doing one on hybrid micro churches

and physical churches, launching micro churches and how to grow that ministry out of your online.

Um, there's, uh, who am I missing? Uh, Barbara is doing one on digital, uh, community and digital

communications. And then Stuart Stunami is doing, thank you, white beard. Stunami. I'm telling you,

fact checker, dude stays on me. You haven't said Stunami yet, Jeff. Uh, Stunami is coming up,

uh, also doing one on, um, virtual reality church and how your churches can launch ministries in

virtual reality, whether it's a full church, whether it's groups or, or whatever it looks

like. And so, man, these are five opportunities for churches like yours to experiment, uh, this

summer and launch something this summer. And so really are looking forward to that. And so we've

had a number of them on, I think Megan is one of the last in the season. And then I'm doing mental

health last week. And so check the church digital, the website and the podcast and YouTube to,

to find past episodes. But Megan, um, you know, let's, let's, let's dive in here to, to mental

health. Cause I would love to maybe tease some of what you're doing, maybe get some, get some

exposure and really, really try to elevate. Um, you know, when we say mental health, it's

interesting. Mental health means so many different things, uh, to so many different people. Uh,

I almost want that to almost be like the first question, like, as we're drilling in,

what exactly does mental health mean to you? What are, what are we addressing when we say

mental health? I mean, mental health is a huge part of our lives. It's always been there. Um,

it's one of the things that people start, have started talking about more. So if people are

asking the question, like, why is so much about like anxiety, depression, all these things out so much

more in public and I'm like, well, it's always been there. It's just, you're making it more

visible. More people are learning about it. And the more we learn about it, the more we realize

that there might've been things that we didn't realize were things that we maybe struggled with.

Um, like me, I grew up, I didn't realize that some of the things I struggled with was anxiety.

And so bringing that to light and in a church, um, format is amazing because we can hit on so many

more levels than just like psychologically. Um, so we look at the person as a whole person,

not just one aspect. And so that's the biggest thing is I love to be able to see,

like, if I sit across from somebody, um, I'd talk to them about, you know, their spiritual health.

Obviously I work at a church, I'm a pastor. That's part of what I do, but talking about their

spiritual health, talk about their mental health. Cause I understand some of the, um, things that go

behind that. Uh, we talk about emotional health, which is separate from your mental health. So

that's a whole nother piece, um, emotional, and then you have your relational. Um, so that's just

relationships with other people. And let's see, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional. I am missing

one and I just lost it. Of course I did. Right. Um, but there are five. And so that is looking at a

whole person rather than just one specific area is so important. And I think that encompasses,

like we can call it mental health, but it encompasses all of those things, um, that we can

really focus on and, and help people because they're hurting in different areas and they,

they're searching for something. Um, and if we can help them and for me, if I can help them with a

little bit of like biblical knowledge, but then also like the knowledge of how the brain is working

and how our, our bodies just work with this and combine it together, it can do really amazing

things. Okay. So you're talking about like spiritual aspects, which, you know, you're a, you are,

you are a pastor with, with, um, with, uh, the, the church, church united or church united,

I'm sorry, church anywhere. Yeah. Um, and so like, you've got pastoral experience that gives you

the ability to speak to that, that aspect. What, how do you speak to the, the, like, I mean,

you're talking about brain science at some level here. Like, um, where, where, where did you,

where did you learn this? Like what, where, where are you gaining some of this experience and knowledge?

Yeah. Some of it comes from personal experience. Um, I've went to counseling myself,

so I was able to work through some of my own anxieties, depression. And so some of that just

from experience of life. The other is, um, I went to, with, uh, light university, which is connected

to the AACC American association of Christian counselors. And they have programs that are set

up for people that can go through, um, really for like lay leaders, um, or pastors that can go through,

gain knowledge to be able to help people fully and, and wholly. Um, and not just, you know,

I love scripture, but not just throw scripture at them because a lot of people, that's not what they

need right at the beginning. They need to be able to have this whole experience and then come in with

the scripture and then Jesus can meet them right where they're at. So there's, there's a balance of

those things, but going through that, um, I have a board, board certification of mental health

coaching. And then I just finished my biblical counseling, uh, program not long ago, which was

really long, but I made it through and survived. And so now getting ready to send in for my board

certification as a pastoral counselor. So just, it's really cool to be able to partner alongside

and have a church that, that wants to do that, um, whether it's in person or online.

So does that make you a doctor? Does that make you a counselor? Does that make you,

what does that give you coming away with this? So it would, uh, once I get the board certification,

I'll be a pastoral counselor. Um, I'm not a therapist. I can't prescribe anything. I help

and guide people along their path with giving them some practical tips, resources, practices to put in

their life. Kind of like we do with discipleship. Um, it's very similar. And so being able to do that

and help guide them. And then it's usually for a shorter time rather than like, if someone's going to see

a therapist, it would be very different, but so there are limitations and you have to know those

limitations and know when it's above your pay grade and when it's time to refer to someone else.

So that's a big piece of it too.

Yeah. Love it. By the way, the chat's opening up and we've got some more people in the room.

Pastor D joining us from California. I, Pastor D, I think I emailed you just, just this morning.

Hope I got it to you. Andy, uh, was in, um, a flat cap was kind of popping in and out, uh, a little bit

as well. And so, you know, love seeing some more people, yo chat Andy saying, Hey, appreciate that,

man. Uh, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't talked to Andy. You know, I've talked to Andy pretty much

like every day. I feel like, and that's, that's the first conversation that we've had today. I miss

you, man. That's good stuff. Um, so you have a, um, you mentioned before, Hey, you know what,

really, when you're talking to somebody, you don't want to like, you know, take scripture right off the

bat, beat him over the head. That's not, that's not helpful. Like, okay. You probably didn't say

beat him over the head, but that was the, that was the visual that I, I, I concocted it in my head

when I heard it. I've seen it happen. Yeah, no, I mean, we all have at some level. And, and, and to

be honest, I've been guilty of it myself, you know, at some point, you know, just it's, it's an unhealthy,

it's an unhealthy approach, but I mean, honestly, that's how we were taught 10, 20 years ago,

you know? Um, I mean, I can remember, Hey, like I've got a lot of issues in my life and I can

remember a pastor coming up to me when I was in my twenties. Well, you know, have you prayed about

it? Have you, have you read scripture? Like, okay. You know, I mean, there's, there's, there's

Yeah. I mean, 10, 20 years ago that, that didn't work that way. Um, you know, even today, I'll be

honest, like, um, I walk around with a cane. I have like, I mean, literally the, the brain synapses

between my brain and my, my legs don't work. And so like, it's documented the reduced rate of how it

goes through it. So it's like dropped data packets back and forth, which is why I really struggle to

walk. And, and I've had people, well, have you prayed about your situation? Um, yes, yes, I have.

And, and God has said, it's better to be this way. So, you know, don't be a day hole. Um, for,

I don't think anybody's listening that would have done that, but if you were, I apologize for calling

you an a-hole at the moment. Um, I would, I'd love some insight from you here. How should we handle

those situations? How should we talk with people as ministers, as pastors, even as we're training our

volunteers, how do we respond to difficult situations? When do we apply scripture first?

And when do we listen more? Like what, what's a good rule of thumb?

I would say above everything else, lead with love. I mean, that's what Jesus did. If we're going to

live our life like Jesus, lead with love. The other things, um, no matter what the situation is,

they can be figured out or worked out later, but leading with love first. And the thing you have

to remember is something I've learned when, um, I've done some, um, studying on trauma, which some of us

might have a little bit of small T trauma from those responses we've gotten before in church, but

is that everybody's trauma is going to be different. Somebody can experience, or two people can experience the

exact same moment and situation. And one person can perceive it as a trauma. And one person can be like,

no, that's normal. And it doesn't affect them. And so realizing that whatever people are going through,

that it's real and like, it's valid to them. There may be things like within, with a therapist or

professional counselor, like they need to walk through and there, there isn't, you know, some things

they got to walk through to, to find that the reality may be a little different than they're

perceiving it. But at that moment, they perceive it that way. So if you can start with just leading

with love and then, and then talking to them like a real human being, like not just running by, like

we get so busy nowadays, like you see people on the street and you're like, Hey, how are you doing?

And like, before they even answer, you're gone. Like you've already passed. And we don't stop to like

be present with that person. And I think that's the biggest thing, like whether you're doing ministry

in person or online is if there is someone hurting and you can see that they're needing that, like

stopping and being present with that person, however you can, and whether that's just chatting back and

forth, um, or seeing them face to face, but being able to really be present with them and hear what

they're saying and sometimes what they're not saying. So it takes a lot of skills. Um, but even just like

going in it with a little bit of empathy, you can make a big difference in that person's life. And then

depending on the situation. And once you built some trust, you can really start speaking into their

life with some truth that may be a little harder or some scripture that can go alongside to help that

person. But you have to know that person a little bit to really dive into that. Yeah. We, we talk a lot

about building trust and earning trust, you know, especially in digital ministry, uh, because it's

very easy to get on a soapbox digitally and, and chase off anybody right off the bat. I would love to

ask you, cause you used, you used a couple of interesting words. Empathy was one of them. Um,

and presence was the other, like how do you, and you're, you're a former digital pastor and you've,

you've worked a lot with digital ministry, um, even still. So how do you be present digitally? How do

you build empathy with someone digitally? You have to get to know people. Um, you can't just post content

and leave it and never look at comments that are in there. Um, interact with people, find out a little

bit about them, not in a creepy way because it can get creepy really fast. Right. Um, but if you can

create a community and even if it's just a one-on-one or you have a group of people that you're constantly

in communication with, that's a, a great starting point. And I think this is one thing, um, Jeff,

you know, it is Tyler, when he became the digital pastor, he was challenged to know a hundred people

online and he has passed that down to every single staff member. And so anybody that works with digital

stuff, it's no a hundred people, like actually know them. Um, how can you get to know them? And so

that's been an amazing thing because through some of the digital content I've done, I've been able to

pray with people and they've opened up a lot more than I ever thought they would like through

messaging and shared things with me. And then you don't always see this response, but I found like

months later they came back and they're like, you prayed for me. And then this was the response of

your prayer. And I'm like, praise God. Like, and you kind of almost forgot because you're trying to

connect with so many different people, but creating that. And that goes right back to that trust and

just stepping, you know, the empathy piece is really stepping into their shoes. So if you hear somebody's

story and they're talking about things like step in, put yourself in their perspective, like how would

you feel in that situation? How would you handle it? And then that gives you a little bit of knowledge

of like how to talk to them and perceive through that. Yeah. Um, and that's so good. And so, you know,

Simon, uh, actually says in chat here, uh, and this is challenging when, when followers are scaling,

you know, and that's, that's an interesting challenge of digital, the idea of, Hey, I got to know a hundred

people. Um, now what's what I love about what Tyler did and, and, you know, I, I, I almost had a front

row seat because, you know, Tyler and I communicate regularly and I saw this when he was digital pastor and

engagement and, and, you know, all the way through like his process now as his lead pastor and holding that

standard towards others. I think that's really how it scales. Simon is applying that policy

to others. Like it's one thing to expect the digital pastor to know a hundred people

digitally. It's another to say, Hey, volunteer, no 50, no 75, no 25, like, like build that relational

evangelism, multiplying. Exactly. Multiplying DNA from the beginning. That's actually why I love Simon

says multiplying from the beginning. That's why I love working with planters because planters it's new

culture. You can come in and you can say whatever you want and people will, will buy into it or they

won't, but they buy in, they choose in. It's much easier to have no culture and create it than it is to

change the established culture. That's much harder. Now churches like first capital have had

huge success changing culture because really they just modernized in some areas, but the heart

of, of service and the heart of multiplying was really built into the DNA for decades. And so Tyler

coming on was able to make shifts easily. Like I just, I've had that conversation enough to know.

You know, it's interesting here. Pastor D talks about how she's been with the AACC for years.

I, you know, I didn't realize that, uh, Pastor D. And so that, that, that's good to know.

Um, what role like with the, is there, is there anything that AACC does beyond, like,

I know you're doing a very intensive training. Is there lighter trainings? Is there other things

that they're, they do as well? What is, what are, what are they offer?

Yeah. I mean, they have all kinds of trainings. They have like one-off trainings you can even do

if you don't want to go do something like I did. Um, or honestly the mental health coaching,

it's 42 hours, which is sounds like a lot, but it's just physically 42 hours. Cause each lesson

is an hour long and you have a quiz. Um, that's how you go through it, but that's a great resource.

It covers so much that it is designed like specifically to help those that are in churches

or ministries that want to put this into place. Um, it's a little more intensive, but it, it is so worth

it if you have the ability to do that for sure. But they also have a whole bunch of resources that you

can do just, um, in, in specific areas that you wouldn't want to learn more about too.

So you're offering a learning community, um, through, through the church digital coming up,

excited about that. It was interesting. We were, we were in a, in a session, just, you know, we were

in a meeting talking about, you know, some of the learning communities that were coming up. And to be

honest, mental health, wasn't a topic that was on my mind. And, um, and somebody said,

what about mental health? And I was like, oh crap, we got to do that. We have to do that.

We have to do that. Why did I not think of that? Um, like this is a, you know, and especially in

recent months, as I've been going through some, some health issues and some trauma issues and

reevaluating my own life and in my own, my own life makes it sound like it's much more drastic than

it is, but, uh, my, my ministry and, and, uh, in different, different aspects of it, like I was

passionate about mental health, but I don't really think I understood it. I don't know that I

understand it now totally, but I definitely feel the pain points of it because I'm going through this.

You know, it's interesting. Um, Andy, uh, Andy, you know, put in chat, um, you know, talking about,

you know, we should pray more. Uh, he says, that's what I was told when I had my first panic

attack as a pastor about 10 years ago. Well, let's pray about that. Your faith isn't large

enough. Had three different people. He says, tell me that, that, oh, you need to pray more.

It frustrates me so much. Um, yeah. And, and, and, and to be honest, like, um, I feel that on a

regular basis. Um, you know, it's interesting. I told Andy, um, I told Andy, yeah, Andy was probably

one of the first people I told this to. I don't think I've said this in the podcast. Like, I mean,

at some level I, I, I, I am acknowledging that I, Jeff Reed, I'm suffering from depression.

Um, now it's interesting. I don't know if I'm depressed because of situations in my life.

I don't know if I'm depressed because of situations of my health or I'm depressed because it's a side

effect of all the medicine that I'm on because of my health. Um, like if you, if you really sat down

and looked at it, there's a number of reasons. Now, you know, I, I tell people I'm depressed

or all of the above pastor. Do I agree? Um, you know, I say I'm depressed and, and it's like,

you know, I almost, I want to put a disclaimer right off the top. I'm not going to take my life.

I am not a risk to myself or anyone else around me. And, and, and, and truth is like the day that

I told, uh, TCD, the church digital leadership, uh, I was depressed and I was feeling symptoms of

depression. Like just even admitting that in a public environment, me, 70% of what I was feeling

depression, 70% of the weight was off my chest. Like just acknowledging the stigma, not carrying it,

not hiding it anymore and, and, and making the people around me aware so that they could be, um,

sensitive, stepping in, helping, um, holding me accountable, um, you know, whatever it is.

And what I loved about, you know, Andy and the rest of the church digital leadership,

none of them said to me, oh, well, let's, um, you know, uh, you need to pray more about it.

None of them quoted scripture at me. Now it actually put a play when okay for scripture. Um,

but it was a much more, I'm using this word gently. It was a much more real tangible thing. Um,

prayer plays a part in this, but the person I think has to trust you to the place where you get to the

prayer. You, you have, I think culture is changing a little bit. Maybe this is a soapbox. I don't

need to get on. Um, but I think there's a level of maybe years ago you could pray without earning the

trust. Um, but in 2024, there's so little trust that if you're praying without the trust, that person

doesn't automatically trust the prayer. They don't trust God. It's, it's the majority of people at this

point in America do not have a relationship or even awareness of God. And so you taking time to pray to

an, uh, an unnamed God that they don't know or recognize is the equivalent of someone praying to

Baal or, you know, I don't know, some random God or, you know, Hercules, whatever. Like it, it doesn't,

it doesn't carry weight like, like it did 10, 20, 30 years ago. And so the relationship aspect

is very, um, poignant today. And I think that plays such an important role

digitally as well as within, in the physical church. Um, Whitebeard brings up a very important

question that I want to come back to. I'm okay with that. Um, I will, we'll, we'll end the show

with that. Thank you. Thank you, Whitebeard. He's, he's so good, man. Um, talk to me specifically,

you're doing this learning community. Who should, who should, who should come to this? Why should they

go? What are you, what are you covering? Like give us a rundown here of the type of churches that

would benefit, why they would benefit from, um, doing a eight week learning community with you

on a mental health ministry? Yeah. Um, people that should is people who care about people. Um,

that's a wide net, right? But it's true. Um, if you, one of our core values here at the church,

and I think that's why we push so much into so many different areas is we deeply care about people.

And if you do deeply care about people, this is a huge piece of people's life. Um, we, we see a world

that is hurting in so many different ways. Uh, so many people are even like just desensitized to so

much. That's a whole other conversation, but there's so many pieces and, and we see that online. Um, you

mentioned how things have shifted. Like we can't just pray for people like we used to. It's not the

same. It doesn't hold the same value. That's kind of the same way with the church itself. Um, we have

had, we have less people that are coming in to the church to find help. They're going online.

They're, they're going on their social media. They're shouting it from the rooftops, trying to

figure out what to do. And they get all kinds of responses. Cause if you look hard enough, you can

find an answer for whatever you're looking for. Right. And so it's, I think leads a lot of people

astray. It leads them down different paths and that can make it really difficult. So a big piece of

what I'm putting together is just how do we create a mental health ministry? So this could be an in-person

ministry. It could be an online ministry. It could be with a group. It could be individually. There's

so many different ways because our mental health is not cookie cutter. We can't just like stamp it and

move it along. Cause it doesn't work that way. We're all different and we're all unique in individuals.

And so you've, you've got to really work with that and, and what your community that you have around

you needs. And so a big piece is we're going to talk about what mental health is a little more in

depth, um, why that's important to the church. We're gonna talk about discovering your community

needs. So whatever community is around you, whatever your network of influences, uh, we want you to find

out what are their, what are they searching for? What are their, you know, felt needs? What are things

that they're struggling with and how can you kind of step into that? You may not be able to step all the

way in because some of them most likely will need professional, um, help. And that's where building

a reference, like a referral network, um, finding people that, you know, that you can trust that you

can help build that is going to be so important. It's something we've worked here to do because there's

a lot of people I've met with like one time and I've sat down and I, they start talking and I'm like,

I want to help you so bad, but this is above what I can do. And so I want to help you find

the healing in your journey. And so how can I do that? So creating that, um, also talking about

huge pieces, those who do mental health ministry or any kind of care ministry, talking about burnout,

um, that's real compassion fatigue. That could be a whole podcast in itself. It's real. Um,

it's so, it's so hard if you get to that point, but there's no, it's not like the end all, like

you can come back from it definitely. And just how to, how to work through those. And then even like

creating your own Sabbath, making sure that you're taking care of yourself as you're taking care of

other people. It's that whole, like the airbags and the airplane, like put your mask on first before

you help other people. It's the same thing in, in any kind of ministry, but especially if you're

dealing with some, some really deep and sometimes dark things, um, with dealing with mental health.

And we'll talk about balancing that spiritual side and the mental health side. How do we do that?

And then, um, hopefully by the end, launching a minute, a ministry for mental health and,

and what that looks like for whoever is part of it, it's going to look different for each one. And I'm

really excited to see kind of the different ministries that come out of it. And it'd be

different than what I do. Um, but just be able to really launch some things to just deeply care for

people and help them along the way. Yeah. I love it. Um, you know, it's interesting. The idea of,

of a ministry of, of, of mental health is, are there, are there churches that are doing that? Is this a,

is this a trend like are the, are the cutting edge or is this, is this a brand new concept that you're

exploring and bringing into the church digital? I think there are some churches. Um, I think there's

probably a lot of churches that are caring for people in one aspect. Um, when we hit that as a

whole person, like we're created whole with all these different aspects, I don't know how many are.

We've tried to research and find some, and it's, there are some who have like a counseling center

connected to their church. Um, it's actually something we're working towards, um, which would

be amazing and just kind of trying to think ahead of the game, but it is something that is so needed.

And there's so many people that whether you're an online church or people come into your church,

so many people that are sitting in a part of your church that you probably don't even realize

are in need of that. Um, I stand at the door and greet people as they walk in every Sunday.

And there's some people that I've talked to and they come in with a big smile and they're like,

everything's great. And I'm like, no, it's not like, I know it's not. Um, I'm not going to call

them out right there. Cause that would be, um, unethical, but we can have those conversations.

And when you're able to open that up and really break that stigma of saying like, yes, you're like,

you can be a Christ follower and deal with mental health issues. And that's, I mean,

that's my story. Like I grew up like thinking, oh, I can't be a good Christian if I'm struggling

with, you know, mental health, if I'm struggling with anxiety and depression. And I was, as I was

growing up and then again, it got the, just pray about it. And so for me, when I went to counseling,

I went to a Christian counselor and he did not start with scripture. And I think if he would have,

for me, it would have been a big turnoff because that's what I only got.

And so that was a big, um, change. And that's what really my passion comes from it is I want

to be an advocate for those people who have struggled with it and they have felt like something

is wrong with them or something is wrong in general. And knowing that that's not something

to just be fixed. Um, like mental health is not just something that gets fixed. Um, you find ways

to manage it. And, you know, we talked about praying like, yeah, I could pray and God's big

enough. He could definitely like take it away. I'd be amazing. Um, but he hasn't yet. So I have

to find ways to manage it. And some days are better than others, but I can manage that around. And so

as much as I can help other people and partner alongside them, and obviously I can't do it by

myself. So being able to help train other people is so important. It's that multiplication piece,

right? That we train others and continue to grow, um, that way that we can just reach so many more

people for the kingdom. How much of this is triage? You know, I've, I've heard that described where,

you know, the, the, the church should triage and then connect. And that gets back to some of the

resource that you're talking about. Yeah. Like as you're taught, as you're talking about a ministry

of mental health, like, is that really the, is that the front lines of this where you've got people

that are, that are triaging and then resourcing to, to someone for the longterm? Like, is, is that,

is that the idea? Yeah. I mean, it is. And you can see that if you compare like the mental health

system to our just health system, which I know is not great, but like, if you have a headache,

you can take Advil or something, you can take Tylenol. And then if it's worse, you can go to an

urgent care, if it's really bad or go to your doctor. And like, if it progresses, you can go,

you know, to surgery and then you are going in rehab. So you have this like steady kind of flow.

You go up the hill and you go down, you got that pathway. Usually when people are searching out

mental health and struggling with that, it's at that critical highest point. They don't get that

care they need at the beginning. So this is a great way. Um, and that's a lot what the AACC is doing

with the mental health coaches is creating lay leaders, volunteers that can help with that triage

piece as well. Um, but any kind of mental health, just caring for those so that you can help direct

them so that it doesn't come to that point. Because I mean, I don't know if you've noticed or looked,

but, um, a lot of professional counselors, therapists, they're booked. Um, it's hard to

get into them a lot of times. And so either you have a waiting period or you have a hard time finding

one at all. Um, and so having somebody that can sit down and listen and talk to you, uh, that's the

biggest part to be able to just be there. That can make a difference in someone's life, just being

there. I mean, like, like I said, with, with the, for me, with the depression, um, saying it

solve 70% of my problems. Like I, I felt like I was, I've, I was not going to take my life. Like I,

I almost, I feel awkward having this conversation publicly because I don't want people to freak out

on me. I was not planning on, on ending my life. Um, but I was, I was circling around depression

and, and I was in a position where I didn't feel like I could get out of it. And I kept trying

to solve the problem of why I was depressed thinking that the, why would actually help me

get over it. Um, and I, I just, after a couple of, maybe a month or so, I, I could not figure out

whether it was situational, which may or may not exist, whether it was medical or whether it was,

was health related. And I just, I got to this place, you know, after talking with counselors and,

and, and, you know, I've got seven doctors on speed dial, I'm having conversations with lots of

people. Um, and, and at the end of the day, I, I just, when I told Andy, Hey man, I'm, I'm depressed.

Like, I just, I need to publicly say that. Uh, I told, I told my wife and then Andy was number two.

And, um, you know, when, when he, and he looks at me and, and he, you know, shared some things from

his life and we had a conversation and it was, it was 70% gone. Like I still struggle. I still have

things that, that I'm wary of. Um, but things have been progressively better. And it was interesting.

Like even, even today at a call with a friend, we were talking, I had this conversation. First time I

told them about this depression stuff. And, uh, and they, they asked me the question and I got the

feeling that they have experienced with some depression as well. And they asked me, um, Hey Jeff,

where do you find joy? And, and really, you know, started diving into, you know, a joy, joy isn't

guaranteed, but taking time to find happiness in everything that you're doing, um, in, in finding

purpose in that and making yourself go through that exercise. Um, I mean, it really started to

chisel away at some of, of what this is. That's that was inside some of this weight that I was

carrying. So I love what you're talking about here. Now, you know, you've got, you and I

are saying, admit it, address it, embrace it, move on. Like that's the, that's the 2024 healthy

approach, some would say. And so we mentioned earlier, there's, there was a white cap, a white

beard through white cap, flat beard. I'm sorry, man. Uh, white, white beard threw up a link

here. Um, an article, I actually haven't clicked on it, but, um, cause I, I know that I know the

whole article, uh, John MacArthur denies mental illness, no such thing as PTSD, OCD, ADHD, whatever.

Um, and so John MacArthur, um, you know, I almost want to disclaim this upfront. I feel like we

villainize John MacArthur a lot on this show. Now, John MacArthur has taken public shots at the

church digital, digital church network, myself and, and, uh, a former, uh, teammate, Chesley Lundy,

uh, with our views on digital church. And, um, you know, Chesley made the statement, the church needs

a, um, needs disruption and John MacArthur and John MacArthur's team objected to that,

took to the lines to, you know, publicly ridicule how we are operating and what we're doing with,

with, uh, digital churches. And, and, you know, I, I replied back by, by offering him a copy of

my book on virtual reality churches and said, I'd love to have a conversation with him wherever he

wanted leadership network exponential offered to, to host the conversation between the two of us.

And, um, he did not reply. So I am not, um, I do not want to pick a fight with John MacArthur,

um, one way or the other, that being said, and this is the second week in a row, John MacArthur

comes up on a podcast. So, uh, we just got to, I guess, be okay with that. Sorry, John, if you're

listening, by the way, like I, I soapbox, sorry, Megan, I used to run a Christian bookstore.

Like, I mean, John MacArthur study Bibles would be behind me on there, like reading as a,

yeah, I'll say this in my, in my twenties, I had a desire to do digital ministry

and not one freaking church on the planet had vision for it in the year 2000 and 2001.

And so I'm trying to figure out like how to like pay the bills. And, and, and honestly,

like my, my parents were like, go to seminary and I'm like, cause you want to do ministry.

And I'm like, seminary is not going to teach. I mean, they'll teach me about God, but this

aspect of digital ministry, no, like it's that nobody's, nobody's talking or thinking or doing

what I want to do. Um, and there was a season where I really leaned into, uh, this idea of,

of biblical counseling and I wanted to be a counselor. I wanted to be the therapist, like

mental health for me, even, even early two thousands was, was a fascination to the point

that I wanted, like I've read intro to biblical counseling by, uh, by MacArthur from cover to

cover multiple times. And in the foreword, when he describes the story of basically saying,

he tells the story of, of a, of a young person who needed, uh, who felt like he needed counseling.

And instead he just needed to pray harder. That's the story in the foreword before he actually

gets into the book. In 2000, 2001, 2002, to be honest, that's what church culture was.

You know, I can't, I don't want to slam the guy for believing the way that it's all they

knew. And so it's, I mean, honestly, it's like the, it's like the pastor that says to me,

you know, Jeff, you're going to hell for taking people out of the bride of Christ is physical

church building. You should repent your, of your sins. Um, and, and endorse the physical church

instead of all this digital mumbo jumbo, which is a real conversation, by the way. I'm not just

making that up. Um, I can't ridicule that guy. I don't, I don't agree with him. I think it's an old

mindset, but to be honest, the majority of these people are old and have come from that old culture

and they haven't modernized. You know, a lot of people have vilified John MacArthur for a number

of reasons that have nothing to do with the church digital, but the heart of it is he has an old

mindset that has not adapted. Um, and, and I, I say this graciously and no, I don't really mean

anything and don't let this statement go viral. At some point that generation is going to die off.

Like that's not me ripping. That's just the reality. It's a danger. I mean, I said, I'm, I'm 46.

The danger that I have is thinking that my way is the only way. John MacArthur thinks that his way is

the only way, you know, I'm fearful of the day that I become John MacArthur, holding to my truths

that I believe without recognizing that culture can change while Jesus is the same yesterday, today,

and forever. That's really the challenge that I think the John MacArthur crowd has because

they're following a, a view of culture and are, and are assuming that a lot of what they believe is

theology is opinions. Uh, and it's not grounded in biblical fact. It's, it's grounded in, in, um,

extra biblical ideology. Sorry. That's my soapbox. Megan, would you like to contribute anything?

That was a very long monologue on my part. That's probably the longest I've ever talked on the show.

I'm going to shut up. Megan, you go. No, I mean, I agree with you.

I think that's, you can't beat somebody down just cause that's the only way they grew up because

there are things the way I grew up that I, if I would go back today, like to that time,

I would be like, why did you think that? Because if we're not growing and learning, like we're not

moving forward. And I think we do that even with like biblical knowledge and, and learning that.

And what I would say to it, it's, I've done some research into just different scriptures and we deal

with a lot of different discipleship. I work side by side with our discipleship pastor. And

whenever somebody gets baptized, we always talk to them about, you know, the time that the leaders of

came to Jesus. Right. And they were like, which one of the 613 laws, which I'm going to say,

I'm a perfectionist and there's no way I could follow 613 laws. It's just like 613 ways to fail.

Right. So I, I couldn't do it, but, and honestly, it was a thing that was impossible to really

actually follow all those laws. And so they were like, well, Jesus, how, you know, they're trying

to catch them, which ones, which one is the most important. And that's when he says the greatest of

all these is love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbors

yourself was just as important. And that's what I try to tell people. Like that's how we need to live

our life. And they're really interesting pieces. You know, Jesus knew who he was talking to in that

moment. And when he was saying, love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength,

he was talking from Isaiah, which they would have known that because that's something they would have

learned and grown up, grown up with. But Jesus added the mind in there. So in Isaiah, it says with all

your heart, soul, and your strength, but Jesus had in mind, and I don't think that was by accident.

I think that that goes back to the whole person is that he saw us as a whole person. And so my one

piece would be, if I was talking to John MacArthur, um, probably won't, but if I was, I would be like,

we just need to look at people as a whole person like Jesus did. And so what somebody is struggling

with, you may not relate with, you may not understand. And the more and more I learn about

the brain, the less and less I know, because it is so intricate. And for me, like looking at that,

I see how just specific and so intentional God created us, how he created the brain to be wired.

And yeah, sometimes it feels a little off or, or chemical imbalances. Those things are real

because we have some things to back it up, but we have to look at that as we don't always understand

what that person's going through. And so if we can just take a moment to like set all of our own

perspectives aside and sit with that person, that's that being present. And then just listen to them and

what they're saying. You may not agree with them and that's okay, but just be able to sit with them

and listen and, and care for them. I mean, that's what Jesus did, right? He sat with them, he cared for them.

And that's what we're supposed to do as disciples. We're supposed to follow him, his footsteps and become

more like him every day. And that's the way I go by it. And that's the way I try to live my life, where I look

back and see, yeah, I probably wouldn't have done things like I do now that I used to. But yeah, living in life like

that, and just leading with love above everything else.

Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting takeaway, leading with love, opening up with that.

The, the, you know, here, Pastor D, that culture of mental health still exists, or the, you know, talking about

MacArthur, that still exists in churches today. I can't necessarily say, especially black churches, but yes, it's still

present yet. And she, Pastor D, does a lot of work in African-American churches. Does, Pastor, I'm blanking

on the name of your church right now, but she has a digital church that operates in that space. The, she's,

excuse me, tell me in a second, I'll say it. But, you know, whether, whether it's African-American

or, you know, Hispanic, thehouseofhisglory.com, you can check that out. But the, whether it's,

it's African-American, I know it's prevalent in Hispanic. I know it's prevalent in white. I know

it's prevalent in blended. Like there's, there's lots of, of obvious problems. What I love about what

we're doing is we're trying to provide a solution. Now, you know, the learning community, awesome.

Come in here, explore, figure it out. What is ministry? What is a, what does a mental health

ministry look like? How does triage, you know, what, what's, what's working here? What's working

for you? Let's, let's learn from each other together and let's experiment with some different

ideas. If there's a, if there's already a solution, then it's just executing on a blueprint or, or,

or adapting it. And, and, you know, maybe in time there will be, but it's not today. And so,

you know, us, the, the church digital constantly wanting to be on the, the innovation line to,

to help, um, address some of these problems. Like I, I believe what Megan's describing is a

bleeding edge concept to try to solve a problem that is prevalent in a whole lot of churches. And so

physical churches, digital churches, hybrid churches, um, you know, African-American,

red and yellow, black and white, we're a precious in a site, something like that. I don't know,

but the, uh, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm starting to sing in my head and I'm not going to do that.

But the reality is, is that, you know, anybody, Megan, what did you say? Who should be a part

of this learning community? You said, I mean, it was somebody who cares. Yeah. Anybody who cares?

Um, anybody who cares? I feel like I'm calling people out. Yeah. If you love people, if you give

a crap about your neighbor, um, you know, but if, if you want to understand how to, to better address,

um, mental health, uh, Megan, we're going to bring you back on at some point,

cause I want to dive into the, um, the, the crash and burn of the supporters like that,

that, that, that you mentioned that podcast into itself. It's huge. Um, but like I, I, you know,

if, if your church is interested in this, um, there's more information, the church.digital

slash LC for learning community short that I'll redirect you over white beard is like the teleprompter.

I, you know, he's, he's just on it, man. He's so good. Um, learning communities are at an

introductory price of 797. So they're running the summer, uh, June, July, and August, eight weeks

this summer. Go through it all online. Uh, the church.digital slash LC more information on the

website. We'll get you in touch with Megan and, uh, we can go from there. It's awesome.

Hey Megan, it's listen, it's always, this is the first, this is the first podcast you and I have

done solo, solo. Um, I feel like we did one, but it was like years ago about digital missionaries.

I think. Okay. Okay. Maybe we did. Maybe we will scrape the archives to find out. Well,

I'm surprised. I'm surprised, uh, white beard. No, yes. Episode 32 or whatever. Like I know.

Um, yeah, you know what? I, I probably, well, it was either you and Tyler or maybe you solo. I don't

remember, but I do remember talking about that back in the day, but, uh, it's, man, it's, it's great.

I've had John recently talking about mental health and grief and a couple other situations and, uh,

looking forward to seeing this learning community come to fruition. But, uh, as we are landing the

plane here in any closing thoughts on your side? I mean, the biggest thing is like, I just want to

share the knowledge that I've learned to be able to help other people. Um, we've done mental health

ministry here for a while at the church. And so being able to share that, um, with others, some trial and

error happened, we found some things that work, some things that don't work. So if we can help you,

if I can help you at all of some things that maybe won't work very well, or that might be a little

more struggle, um, that's something I would love to be able to do. And that's, I mean, it's my passion

as I think it's one of my heartbeats of just helping people, um, in this area and just, uh, being an

advocate for that. Yeah. Awesome. And so really looking forward to seeing that, that come to fruition and

honestly helping more churches, even past this learning community, uh, address this. And you're

going to be seeing and hearing more of Megan, uh, through the church digital and in the, in the

months to come. So cool. I keep getting text messages. I think my kids are outside and they

left their keys at home and they're trying to get in the house. And I mean, that's not my fault.

Cause dude, like, you know, I tell my kids all the time, own your crap. Like you got to get in the

house, take keys with you. Don't, don't, don't get mad at me. I'm just saying like, I'm not,

I'm your dad. I'm not. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm like, we have one of those really cool down print ones.

Yeah. It's awesome. We may, I have, yeah, I've got this, uh, I wish I would love a Bluetooth lock,

you know, app, but, uh, we've got these like hurricane proof doors that only a certain lock

goes on and they don't make the Bluetooth to fit that. And like, I just, whatever. So this is,

you know, we're, we're going into extra, extra innings here with the church digital podcast. So

we're going to land the plane on the recording. Check out the church.digital slash LC for more

information on the learning community. And, uh, Hey, for to, uh, pastor D whitebeard, Melanie,

uh, everybody else, Simon, uh, Andy was hanging around, uh, in each crew. Um, every, I'm just

scrolling through chat real quick. Uh, anybody else that was hanging out with us today was awesome.

Uh, flat, uh, flat, uh, flat cap as well. So thanks for hanging out with us. We're going to wrap

up. So for, uh, for Megan, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for hanging out with us

in the show. We'll see you next time on the pop. Have a good one.