EP300 - Alan Hirsch, APEST, and Digital Church Movements

Martin Luther King Jr. said that which you would change, you must first love.

So I think, you know, the fact that we love the church enough to speak to it

and call it into a new reality is really important.

Whether the church will always recognize it, I don't know.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, episode 300.

300 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital.

I am so excited about this conversation.

I'm so excited about this conversation this evening.

We just did the live podcast recording of episode 300 in Discord,

and it was a phenomenal, exciting, incredible, informative night.

And so I just want to give a quick intro here for it,

and then I'm going to get out of the way, let the conversation happen.

We did episode 300, by the way, brought to you by Riverside.

Thank you to the sponsors, Riverside, for what they're doing with the Church Digital.

We stretched Riverside to the limit tonight.

And I'm going to be honest, we had some tech issues.

I don't think it was Riverside.

I think it was more some of the technology and some of the internet was struggling with some of our users on there.

But we had like six people in Riverside, but we had like six people in Riverside and six people in Discord at the same time.

And so we did a recording in Riverside, and then we did us having the conversation in front of the studio audience in Discord,

maybe 20, 25 people, I think, total kind of floating in and out.

By the way, the Church Digital Discord hit 300 people right as we were walking into episode 300.

So super excited about that.

Congratulations to – well, just so happy to have everybody on.

I forget, John Favorite, I think, was our third – our 300th Discord member.

And so ironically, we were just talking to John about asynchronous learning communities, thechurch.digital.lc for our learning community.

We were just talking async with John earlier that day, and then like he won the award to get the 300th.

I don't know what it will actually get, but he got something.

Thanks, John.

Episode 300.

So Stunami and I, somewhere around 295, we're doing a podcast about virtual reality church planting.

And towards the end of the podcast, we started just dreaming about what we were going to do for 300 because I didn't really have a plan, if I'm honest.

And nothing really seemed like it was going to work out.

And so Stu actually came up with the idea that we ended up doing for 300, which involved Alan freaking Hirsch.

That's right, Alan Hirsch, the freaking Alan Hirsch, church movement catalyst, church planting guru.

Alan freaking Hirsch is on the podcast here at the Church Digital.

By the way, if you're keeping score, this is the second Australian that we had on the Church Digital podcast in as many weeks.

Two weeks, 299 with Steve Addison, 300 is Alan Hirsch, and both bringing incredible wisdom and guidance to planting and into movements.

Now, Alan Hirsch today, we really focus on APEST, five-fold ministry.

Some of you may be like, what's Jeff smoking?

I've never heard of APEST.

Is that like rats?

Is that what we're calling mouses these days?

Mouses.

Is that the way you say that, mice?

The little trackpads?

No.

Okay, that was a bad joke.

Forgive me.

Corny.

But in reality, this is something that a lot of digital churches and virtual reality churches, a lot of digital ministries, a lot of churches in general, we need to better utilize.

And Alan does a deep dive for us here in episode 300.

By the way, it's not just Alan into the conversation.

We invited a whole bunch of church planners in digital and metaverse spaces.

We invited Joey Santos from Church at a Bar.

We invited Dr. John Harris from Hearts Like His.

We invited Stunami from Vector Church.

And we also invited in God Squad's Susie.

Like, you know, there's a lot of wealth of knowledge on church planting.

And as we, the most telling night for me that tonight, and we did this recording, was to see Susie's face light up as he's talking about a pest and how a pest can influence what's happening at God Squad Church.

He has literally been running God Squad Church for nine years.

And tonight, Susie discovered something that made him excited about it.

Like, this is, this is like nine years, and he's just now finding it.

And so, like, audience, lean in as we're talking about what a pest is going to look like.

Now, I do want to beg forgiveness for the room, of the room, from the room.

We had some tech issues tonight.

I overstretched the systems, and Dr. John is not going to be as present in this podcast, probably not at all.

We'll have to see what we can do in editing, but very little, which is sad, because Dr. John is a freaking genius when it comes to a pest.

And so, it really made me sad that he was not able to get on the recording.

He was able, finally, at one point towards the end of the podcast, or in Discord, he just jumped in the Discord app without being on the recording.

And he shared, like, from his heart.

It was so good.

Oh, my gosh.

I want to get Dr. John on a podcast and really do a deep dive just with him in the months to come, in the weeks to come.

But for today, we're bringing in the Alan Hirsch into the conversation, centered around a pest, five-fold ministry.

In digital and virtual church planting.

Episode 300, right here, right now, of the Church Digital Podcast.

Thanks, everybody.

Here you go.

Gentlemen, welcome to episode 300 of the Church Digital Podcast.

We had some tech issues.

I knew.

I knew.

It was like the thing that was going to happen with, you know, five people coming into how we do the podcast, the live podcast with the recording.

A couple of them have never, are not Discord natives, which is completely fine.

That's great.

And then Andy, who's our community expert here with the Church Digital, is doing a church service right now with Lux Digital and those guys.

Like, I just knew, I was like, this is not going to be good getting started.

And so, thank you very much for your patience, those of you that are here with us in Discord, watching this on the live recording.

This will be publishing sometime next week.

I do want to ask this question of the gentleman here on stage with us, because I did not earlier.

Do you have any hard stops?

Like, if we went till, what is it, 6.30 our time?

If we went for an hour to 7.30 Eastern New York time, is that going to freak anybody out beyond that?

Is everybody okay time-wise?

I got to stop at 5.30 Central.

Okay, cool.

No, it's a joke.

It's a joke.

He's out.

Hey, you know, Stu, we've been hanging out a lot, and you're a Metaverse virtual guy.

So, can you virtually read my mind right now, what I'm thinking right now towards you?

Do you have a picture of what that would look like right now?

Yep, and it's making me blush, bud.

Hey, Jeffrey just had a minor heart attack.

Hey, listen, by the way, a lot of you are new to the Church Digital Discord.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Glad to have you on here.

Would love to have you engage through this.

We talk about it all the time with the Church Digital in Discord.

Join the conversation.

And as we're having this interview with Alan Hirsch, Alan freaking Hirsch, as I've been saying on the streams for the past couple weeks, you know, the Church Catalyst planting expert here, Church movement expert, we want to hear from you.

What questions do you have as we're digging through this, and how does it apply?

How is this applying to some of the stuff you're working on in real time?

So join the conversation with us, and we'll be talking to and through you guys all night long in the chat.

Thank you, Hilmi, for getting that started off, and Flatcap's always good with an animated GIF.

So cool.

So let me quickly just introduce the room here, because honestly, we could do a full podcast just focusing on the five people that are joining me today.

In no particular order, I've got Joey Santos, who is a microchurch pastor, former digital pastor at a hybrid church, but he is a microchurch pastor as well as a operations director for a bar.

He actually started a church, a church at the bar, and is doing really an incredible micro strategy of reaching bar people and bar employees through a bar while he's actually working at the bar.

And so, you know, anytime I'm talking micro, I want to involve Joey in the conversation.

Next to him, at least on my screen, is Stunami and Stuart McPherson, virtual reality pastor at Vector Church, a church plant, does hybrid and virtual reality for a physical church as well called Lakeland, and is really one of the leading voices of a virtual reality church and ministry.

And anytime I talk VR, I want to bring this guy into the conversation, I got Dr. John Harris, just some guy that I wrote a book with, but does incredible ministry through hearts like his.

Are we calling it a church?

Are we still calling it a discipleship group?

You can call it a digital church.

All right, okay, it's a digital church.

We went back and forth on that for a season, as I recall, but a digital church, hearts like his, and really engaging with the de-churched and people that are walking away from the church buildings, but are finding Christ and social media in that.

And so, talking digital, Dr. John is the guy, and so you can check out Sharing Jesus Online, the book that he and I co-wrote.

It's on Amazon.

And then next to him, Susie, Matt Souza from God Squad Church.

To be honest, maybe the oldest active digital church planter I know.

I mean, I know guys who were doing it before you, Susie, but they're not doing it anymore.

And so, are you the grandpa of this?

Do you know anybody that's active doing it longer than you?

I've never called the grandpa, but I'll take it.

We were the first gamer church, definitely not the first online digital church, but we have been going, this March we'll celebrate nine years coming up next year.

So, we've been at it a while, and God's been faithful that we've been able to continue this long.

Love that.

So, nine years of a gamer church, God Squad Church.

And so, hey guys, if you want to put your, you know, information or links to your respective websites, put that in chat on Discord.

That'll be great.

We'll transpose that information and get it into the show notes for the people that are watching this on demand.

There is plenty of opportunities to engage.

And yes, I see Desert Dwarf.

That would make Amanda Souza the grandma.

I'm sure she's flattered.

Amanda, I'm just imagining her right now sitting in a rocking chair on the front porch, waving her broom, saying, get off my lawn.

So, so much goodness there.

But, you know, y'all, thank you very much for joining in this conversation.

And I do want to bring in into the combo Alan Hirsch, who is, my gosh, like it was funny.

One of the first conversations I had with Alan Hirsch was me giving praise to actually his email signature.

Because he has like eight or nine, all the stuff that he's listed as, as that he's doing, where he's like the catalytic leader or the visionary or the cat, like all of these organizations and all of this influence in, in, in church planting and innovation.

And like, he's, he's doing it and he is so well-connected, well-versed and really has brought about, you know, when I talk about modern church movement and we're even going to talk about like APES and a lot of, a lot of the things that we're building, church planting around in 2024.

This guy's the architect of, and, and, and he and his contemporaries.

And so like, it's a, it's an honor to, to bring him into the church digital podcast.

I have felt at a personal level of the church digital ministry.

I felt nothing but respect from Alan and, uh, in his team.

Um, which, you know, if you know me and this is not humble brag, I'm just some moron that knows how to like type on a computer and roughly knows how to do tech.

Well, and so, um, you know, the fact that we've, we've gotten to this point, you know, through the church digital and, um, that Alan's on here for episode 300 of the church digital podcast is, um, is, is beautiful.

And so gentlemen, thanks for, for hanging out with us and, and appreciate you all coming in.

And so, um, what I really want to kick off, uh, with here at the beginning, all this started with a podcast episode with Stunami and I, maybe a month or two ago.

Uh, we were talking about what we were going to do for episode 300.

It came up and, uh, the entire podcast previous with Stunami that he and I were on, we'd spent talking about APEST and we had, um, Stunami, who was on with us?

Uh, just Peyton Jones.

Peyton Jones was on with us, Alan Hirsch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Another one of your friends.

Um, and so we were talking, yeah, metaverse church planting with Peyton and, uh, church plantology, a book that Stunami and, you know, Stunami is reading recently and I've, I've read historically.

And so talking through that and, um, and, uh, flatbeard, excuse me, whitebeard, um, who's in the room, uh, makes the comment about APEST.

Before he even started the interview, he asked a question on APEST.

And of course that took over the entire conversation.

So much so Stunami is like, Hey, we got to continue this on.

And, and really when I look at APEST, the fivefold, um, when I see the potential of, of how that's being influenced on, on developing leaders and recruiting leaders and structuring teams, I see huge potential and effect of that in physical churches.

But if I'm honest, and I'm, I'm calling myself out at this, and a lot of the digital churches, we've not even gotten to that point yet.

And, and so as we're, as we're heading in, we've got all these planters where I want to dig into their experiences.

And at some point I'm going to let them interview you, Alan, and open up the floodgates, but I'd love to spend some time just right up here at the beginning.

As we're talking about episode 300, um, let's talk about APEST.

Specifically, what is it?

How's it defined?

You know, I could sit here and talk about it for half an hour.

I know you've got like a two minute definition to get it started.

And I would love for our team here to start to unpack maybe what this can look like, or what it will look like, or what it should look like, even among our, our teams in our churches.

So Alan, can you kick us off?

Okay.

Well, Jeff, thank you, mate, for having me on.

It's a, it's a privilege.

And yes, we do go back a little bit and I'm grateful for your ministry and your pioneering work in, in this field.

And all of you guys, it's just awesome to be here.

I'm laughing because, you know, you say, I've got a two minute definition.

So one of the, uh, things I call myself is the Lord of the long answer.

Uh, not known for the short kind of, uh, short answers or the short definitions, but I will give it a go.

Uh, I think you pretty much indicated, you know, the use that we've often used as a word fivefold.

Um, that tends to be used in a certain, um, you know, form of church that, uh,

and itself has come into some questioning and some critique, uh, over time.

So I tend to avoid it, although it's referring to the same thing.

Ephesians four typology of ministry, uh, which is embodied in Jesus, uh, perfectly embodied in Jesus, given to the church in his ascension.

Uh, and that, uh, you know, that we might become the fullness of Christ and expressed throughout the book of Acts, which you see, uh, you know, played out in the life of Paul and others who play in the, in the book of Acts.

Um, effectively, um, effectively Ephesians four, uh, the fivefold ministry is apostle, uh, effectively a pioneer.

It's a, it's a really a missionary function more than anything else.

If you, the scent one is, that's what it means.

So on the frontier pioneering, uh, innovative kind of work, uh, in trying to create new forms of church.

The prophet is the one who aligns God's people with God's purposes, um, an aligner, uh, covenant guardian, if you prefer the theological language, um, very important radar of the church.

If you switch off the radar, you crash into the side of the mountain.

So a very important function, uh, both of these form what, what Paul calls the foundation, uh, of the church is very important dynamic between them.

What I call prophetic intelligence for apostolic architecture, but we can come back at that later.

The evangelist is really the singer of the song, the, um, the communicator of the message, the person who invites people into the story as it unfolds, the champion, the, um, the recruiter to the cause.

Really important function for church growth and just a dynamic positive function you need around to, to be healthy.

The pastor, the shepherd, uh, is the same word, poyman in the Greek is really the one who creates human community and defends it, uh, human flourishing, uh, connectivity, love, relationship, discipleship in the local setting.

And the, the, the, the teacher is the one who brings wisdom and understanding, um, helps us integrate truth into life.

Um, and then also distills the ideas of a generation, hands it onto another, that we, that our knowledge of God grows in one generation to another.

All five are necessary.

These are given, embodied in Jesus, as I said, given to the church in the ascension, which is a foundational action.

And then this is played out in, in the life of God's people.

Um, yeah, so that's a quick two minute Alan Hirsch definition.

Maybe, maybe not quite two minutes in, in real life, but, but love it.

That was, that was good.

I'll, I'll, I'll give you props for that.

And so, you know, the, the hope is, is to try to develop the five folds.

Um, you know, at least some of the stuff that we're applying even within the church digital right now is applying those five folds within our, our leadership structure.

Um, now I, I'm curious and I want to ask the guys, um, you know, I know some of you have varying levels of expertise with five folds.

I know Dr. John, you have, uh, you know, a lot more experience on this.

And, you know, I know, uh, maybe some of you, the others are, are maybe a little newer.

Have you done, um, any analysis for yourself?

Like what, what do you, how do you rate yourselves?

Or if you, if you've done the assessment, how did you score for yourself?

Yeah, go ahead, Susie.

Yeah.

I took the assessment.

Uh, Alan absolutely loved it.

I know we got to talk a little bit about my excitement for, for the podcast started.

Yeah, I landed on apostle teacher.

They were super close 36, 35 in my scoring, uh, but was super enlightening.

I have obviously heard of the five fold ministry, have studied Ephesians four, uh, but really

we're just super eyeopening to look at it from the approach of building a team around it, understanding

the role of a shepherd.

You talked a little bit before how the word pastor can kind of be overly generalized in, in

the church and the pastor can kind of just be literally every person who does ministry.

And I was super, super enlightening.

I really, really enjoyed it.

Thank you for making that.

Stu, what are you?

Uh, literally just, you just put it in.

I just saw that.

So you're an apostle 31, um, you know, Susie's apostle.

I'm, I'm strong apostle as well.

Um, uh, Joey, do you, do you know your scores?

Yeah, I did.

I did.

Uh, it's teaching first and apostolic second, which I thought was very interesting.

I know, right.

You're surprised that I can, I would have picked, I mean, I don't want to, I would have picked

that.

I would have picked it.

Yeah.

Were you drinking at the time?

Does that, does that affect, does that affect your scores?

It brings a puzzle out of him.

I was like, I was like, even like, and when I looked at it, I was like, really, but that's

something I started doing almost every weekend, just a year ago.

Uh, so I'm, I'm wondering, you know, I'm, you know, based on the season of life, the ministry,

the impact that this can have in you.

Cause I, I love the instruction.

I love the descriptions and in a form of direction.

And I'm, I was, I was thinking this serve, this, this assessment would have helped me

a ton a year ago.

That would have helped you a year ago, uh, Joey?

Yeah.

And because, you know, I made the decision, I, I'd be in a traditional, uh, church model

for over 20 years, serve for over 20 years.

And then all of a sudden I was like, yeah, I'm going to leave this.

And I'm just going to work in a bar and then do this church thing.

And, and, uh, you know, and I mean, it flipped everything.

I was, I was the digital pastor, not preaching every weekend at all.

Uh, and I, I have not done every weekend preaching for 20 years until I went to the

church, microchurch, uh, model.

And the thing, one thing to me, like when I read this is like, man, I, on my setting,

this, this assessment is extremely helpful because I'm a pastor of a church that I don't have

to pay mortgage.

I don't have to pay, uh, bills.

I don't have the staff.

I don't have things to manage outside the spiritual side.

I, I don't have to manage the not-for-profit side of it.

I just need to manage the spiritual side of the ministry, which is a, it's a big plus.

I think I'm not saying it's not for other pastors, but I feel like, you know, I can solely

focus on that.

So, you know, I, I think that that's what there's so much value in this assessment because

it really like just, I did that this morning.

I was like, it just generates so much focus for me now.

Like things that have to get better, things that have to improve that I didn't see it.

I really didn't see it because I never had that tool in front of me before.

Right.

That's what I really appreciate about what this, this, this, this, um, this assessment really,

really, really, really helpful in my case.

Yeah.

So all of this came out of a book, um, the forgotten ways, Alan, that was the first publishing

of this back in the early 2000s.

Yeah, actually it goes, it goes back a little earlier than that, Jeff.

Uh, the, so there was a book I did before that.

Uh, I'm, I mean, I've been riffing on this for a long, long time, but in the local church,

but, um, I wrote a book with a guy called Michael Frost called Shaping Things to Come.

And we had a chapter on, uh, we called it Apeptin because we used the word pastor.

Actually, Shepard is the better translation, but, and because you can't have two Ps in an

assessment, it's not, it doesn't work.

So, um, but, um, but, uh, you know, so that's been going back quite a long way.

Forgotten ways, put it as one of the essential elements of movements, which I think it is.

There's never been a movement that went to scale ever that didn't have fivefold functionality.

It just doesn't happen.

And so, um, uh, you know, so that, that, that was in there, but I've written, um, four other

books on this, two substantial, um, very substantial books on, uh, one on the apostolic in light of

the fivefold, and that's called The Permanent Revolution, and then one called Five Q, which

is, uh, my best take on the fivefold ministry, um, with at least what I can do.

And it's a pretty comprehensive book, too.

So, yeah, I'm pretty obsessed with it, Jeff.

Uh, I think it's so important.

Um, it's, it's a remarkably important, uh, um, thing that's, and, and it amazes me.

It amazes me that we've actually, uh, we've been there for 2,000 years.

It's in the scriptures, modeled in Jesus.

And yet, uh, you know, we've, we've inherited ideas of thinking about the church that have

pretty much excluded them.

Um, and the, very intriguing, uh, because, um, when you think about the, the, the, the amount

of time these words are used, uh, the word pastor, interestingly enough, um, and this is going

to be a surprise to people here.

The word shepherd poyman, uh, the noun, the naming word, the identity word, is only ever

used once of believers in the New Testament, once, my friends.

And yet, we call everyone pastor in leadership.

Now, where did that come from?

Um, that's a problem.

Uh, pastor's very important.

It's in this very important text.

It's not trying to dismiss it.

There are adverbs and adjectives about that, but, but the, but the noun.

The word, um, uh, teacher is used about 40 times, most of them to do with false teachers.

And when you ask people, what's an apostle, it goes something like this, uh, uh, uh, uh,

they're in the Bible.

And actually, they are, but they're also outside.

It was just a basically broad secular function.

The Bible uses the terminology that's in Greek language.

Um, so it had a function outside of the church.

Um, so that's not even correct in itself, although the Bible, it is in the Bible.

And then they go, uh, uh, uh, uh, there's 12 of them.

And yes, that's true, but there are also more than 12.

What's Paul?

Uh, uh, chopped liver.

Uh, no, Paul is not one of the original 12.

And there are also others, and there's about 12 or 13 others named as apostles.

One of them's a woman.

Uh, suck that up.

Um, so here, that's the thing there.

Uh, word prophet.

And by the way, the word apostle is used 82 times.

82 times.

Most people haven't got a clue what it is.

And the word prophet is used, I'm not even kidding you, 144 times in the New Testament.

Most people haven't got a clue what a prophet is.

Oh, it's in the Old Testament.

Really?

It's all the way through the New.

It's the most referred to of all the ministries.

And, um, so here's the problem with this.

And I'll, I'll finish at this point.

Um, when, when the Bible uses words, they carry revelatory value.

They, they're communicating something to us.

And we call it theologos, God words.

They matter hugely.

The word righteousness in the scriptures, the word justification, if you will, is an important

word.

It's used about 12 times.

And yet created the, the reformation.

What we need to do is to pay attention to what the Bible means by these words and not suppress

them because it's important.

They need to define us.

We need to allow ourselves to be impacted by them.

That's what revelation is about.

And one of the things we have to do is open our minds and hearts to receive again what Jesus

gave in the ascension.

So it's, there's a big learning, unlearning journey and a big learning journey for us

here.

It's beautiful.

So Mestala, um, who's actually in Nigeria, um, is, uh, is asking a question in chat.

How do you implement APEST in a, in a new church plant, either a digital or a physical, like,

you know, there's, there's a lot of new exposure here to APEST.

So, um, where, where do we even get started in this?

Walk me through a little bit, Alan.

Well, um, guys, I think it's really important, again, given the historical neglect of the

typology, uh, it's kind of very important that we get clarity in our own minds, at least.

And I think in the communities that we lead are what, what the Bible's using.

So take, just slow down.

One of the things, a mistake people make immediately, I was worried, they, they're buying it because

they see the power of it and it's very powerful.

It changes everything and we can get to that.

Everything is touched.

All the aspects of ministry are dealt with in the APEST model.

Everything.

Nothing's left out.

So there's power in it.

The problem is, um, with the, most pastors rush to doing a sermon series and that is the

biggest mistake you can ever do because you're going to inoculate the people.

Um, so I would say, take your time and deal with definitions.

Everyone pick up a Bible, maybe read some books, compare notes, come to clarity.

When you use the word apostle, this is what we mean by it.

And I would say, uh, and the church plant, very important up front.

I would base it right in the beginning so you don't have to factor it in later on.

And it's already there in, in the scriptures given to us in the Ascension, so we should.

I would, I would work hard at definition.

Then at the leadership team level, I'd suggest try to learn to function in the five-fold dynamic.

And there are tools and resources.

I write quite a few of them in, in, uh, 5Q and there's a whole, uh, on-site thing where

there's tons of training and all that stuff there.

Um, I would say, get used to it and then begin to take it out into the broader church.

Don't rush at this.

That would be, in my opinion, a mistake.

Um, I would say, if God's waited 2,000 years for us to catch up on, on what was really given

2,000 years ago, I think he can wait another year.

So take another year.

That's all right.

But get this right.

Everything changes because it goes to the design of the church and its capacity to create impact.

Again, sorry about my long answer again, brother.

No, beautiful.

Um, I'm willing to bet something, Alan Hirsch.

Um, and the reason why Joey not being, by being teacher primary upfront is that, you know,

you're talking to a bunch of innovative guys and gals who are doing digital ministry.

Um, and it really feels like we are, um, like a trending apostolic, um, where we're kind

of leaning more and more that way.

I actually, I don't know a lot of digital planters that are not, I'm talking the lead

people that are not apostolic.

Like, and so is that, is that a trend that makes sense?

Um, and a follow-up question is how do we even like counterbalance us?

Because I'm seeing like shepherding and teaching is a weakness when surrounded by a bunch of

apostolic.

And I, you know, I've, I actually, you know, I've joked that, um, um, I'm an a-hole all

the time.

And so sometimes like I need to keep myself in check and that shepherding and teaching

is a known weakness of, of mine.

And so like, how do we counterbalance that even of ourselves?

Yeah, good question, brother.

Uh, absolutely.

I, and I'm, I'm not at all surprised, uh, that it's waiting, uh, in favor of apostolic.

One, as I mentioned, this is a distinct frontier, uh, for the church in our time.

No question about it.

And frontiers naturally attract apostolic types.

Now, even if, uh, apostolic is in your secondary, it doesn't matter.

It's like left and hand, left and right hands.

You can use both hands, um, quite effectively.

Um, I'm not as good with my left, but I can use it.

And so you'll find that even your secondaries can qualify there.

Uh, in the case of Joey, um, you know, it's, you know, he can operate out and he might

be quite very functional in it.

His preferred role would be, you know, perhaps as a teacher.

And you need that.

Again, it's to provide, uh, insights, guidance, reflection, wisdom, understanding.

That, or you need that.

And particularly as you head out in the frontier, uh, Jeff, it's important that you, you, you

get the advice from all the five functions.

Um, you need shepherding function in here as well, because one of the big critiques of maybe

online versions of church, uh, is that it, you know, how do we don't, you know, I don't

know your name.

I don't know your story, uh, how can that be community?

Well, that's a question that a shepherd can maybe bring nuance to.

Um, yes, can it be, but then what do you need to do to make a genuine community?

Or is it just a fake version of community?

Which I know people, I don't believe it is, but obviously, you know, that's a critique

that's leveled, you know, in this direction.

Uh, evangelist, I think is clear as another one that you've, you guys got a fair bit of

energy on that.

Uh, I, you know, feel it in the stoop, um, he's got a strong, he and him, very vibey kind

of dude.

You, you have it as well, Jeff.

Uh, and that's like, again, an important function on the frontier to bringing people and aligning

them.

So, yeah, um, it's all good.

I think it's, uh, I would say for a team, work harder at this upfront, um, integrate as quickly

as you can.

And, um, and, and this is what, um, Peyton would tell you as well.

You know, what they do is, is do five-fold training with all the church planters right

up front as quickly as possible.

Let's open this up to the room while Dr. John's figuring out his, his tech issues, uh, unfortunately.

Um, what other questions on APES as you're listening to some of this from, uh, from Alan

and the rest of us, what, what questions are you feeling about your own ministries and, and

how you're set up to lead or the people you're leading with?

Yeah.

So I've got about 150 questions written, uh, exaggerating a little bit, too many questions

that we want to have time to, uh, obviously go through here.

Uh, one of the questions I would love to ask, uh, Alan, if you don't mind, obviously in a

perfect world and forming a perfect team for your church, ideally get multiple of each role.

So all the bases are covered fully past your team.

Obviously when starting startup ministries, digital ministries, you don't have a plethora of

people at your disposal, but with your statement a few minutes ago about most of the people that

are starting these new innovative ministries falling into that apostle role, what would

you say would be if, if, if someone's starting out today and they're, they're starting a team

or reforming a team and they feel that apostle role, and maybe they're looking to get a second

and third person on their team, what would you say are maybe certain roles that they feel

they should look for to best compliment their apostle role when first starting?

Right. So, um, uh, another good question again, assuming you, you, uh, you, you can't get all

five. Let me come back at that. Uh, so it's just, you, you, you remind me if I don't answer that

question, but I think the, it's important to, to state this because this is a game changer how we

understand, uh, fivefold is that it's, it's not just a leadership function. I think it's a mistake

to think of it simply as leadership. Well, one, the Ephesians four doesn't use the language of

leadership. It uses the language of equip, but actually it's a, one of the translations of the

word, uh, katatismo. That word can also equally be translated to mend or to heal or to restore

or to rebuild. Um, and why I say that we, when the disciples were mending their nets, it's the same

word. Um, so don't think of the word equip as simply a leadership function. Uh, yes, it is that,

but it's much more. It's a poetry. Biblical words got a lot more meaning than that. So that's one

thing. Um, and here's the second thing, and this is important. When Paul writes the letter of

Ephesians, it's not, it's what we call a general letter. It's not a corrective letter. And he's

writing it to a young church. He planted the church. It's probably about two, three years later.

So they're baby Christians largely. And he's addressing issues in the church. But you have

to ask the question, who's in the room? Who's listening to this? One, it's a slave that's reading

it out, Onesimus, which is interesting in itself. And he says to each one of us, verse seven in

Ephesians four, seven, each one of us, grace has been given as Christ as a portion to. Well,

okay. So what does that mean? Everyone in the room. Okay. It's not a seminary. It's not a seminary.

It's not a group of leaders like us gathering together. It's a group of God's people. And this

is a breakthrough idea. It's already given to the whole body of Christ, not just to leaders.

So it's first and foremost, what I call your calling or general APIS. Everyone's got it.

Everyone in the room is in the APIS profile. Now they might not be developed. And I've done

this in churches, you know, large churches with thousands in them, get them voting where

they are. It's amazing how people self-identify. Now, is leadership there? Leadership is implied

in ministry, but ministry is given to all of God's people. And all I'm saying, friend, is that

this is already given to you. If you've got a group of 10 people in the room, I promise

you, you've got all that you need. Everything you need to get the job done is already there.

It's just undeveloped because you haven't named it and developed it. It's a breakthrough idea.

So don't think just leadership. That's a mistake again. It's going to get you into all kinds

of trouble because again, you know, the apostle, you know, you're going to play into that role

that it's all about leadership. Someone's going to say that you're my bitch and I'm going to

come, you know, you're going to claim you, you know, and you've got hierarchical understandings

coming. Don't go there. Start with ministry. And that, but all ministers, some of us can

be leaders and that you have a pathway to develop leaders. So that's the one, one thing I would

say. However, if there's only, you know, a few of you in the room and you want to say

you want to build your team, I would say if you're on a frontier of sorts, you want as much

as you can apostolic. You've already mentioned that. I would say prophetic's important because

it's going to guide you. That's why the apostles and prophets all the way through the book of Acts,

there's a, you know, some sort of relationship there. They guide the apostolic. Otherwise,

apostolic on their own, you're going to make a lot of mistakes and you're going to hurt a lot of

people. So you need to pay attention. Don't go too fast. Pay attention, pay attention to God,

right? That's one. It's a prophet. And making sure you're aligning with God and not just,

it's not just 10 ideas before breakfast, right? Which is what apostles can do. But the second

thing I would say, evangelist, you need people who, good news people who can invite people into the

story. I think if you have a minimal group, I would choose that. But here's the thing, you're going to

need, if you're going to create a church, you're going to need the shepherd to create a human community

that flourishes and doesn't abuse people. And you're going to need teachers to create wisdom.

Don't leave them out of the equation. You need them. But hey, they're already given to you.

So you just have to acknowledge what's there and develop it. And so this is the beautiful thing.

It's already been given to you.

I just want to ask a quick question. I got a Bible study at the bar. It started at seven o'clock.

I had somebody else talk for me so I can be part of it. But I want to ask a question before I go.

How do you instruct pastors when they see their profile to the APAS and how do you instruct them

pastors when they see them to reconcile with the business side of the church, right? Like managing

the finances or a new building or growth or, you know, capital campaign or HR situations? And

how is that this process of assessment allows

instruct pastors to manage both, you know, the church and the not-for-profit together? Because

that's the structure demands that. Not because most pastors, I'm just guessing, most pastors probably

don't want that role. But that comes with a package in a current model. So why would you say to that?

Is that, Jeff, is it aimed at me? Sorry, Joe, aimed at me.

Jeff, that's not aimed at me. I can guarantee that. So, yeah, the heart of this, Alan, is, you know,

how do pastors, you know, where does the business aspect fit into APAS? How do you recommend,

you know, churches handle this situation? Because pastors are not equipped to handle those decisions.

And here's the thing. Again, going back to the biblical language itself in Ephesians 4,

strive for the callings you have received. That word is repeated twice. The callings are vocation. Why?

I think it has to do with our distinctive contribution that we bring to the world.

And that's what APAS deals with. It's vocational. So that's one thing is that that's why I think,

you know, getting in touch with it is what, this is what's going to motivate and drive you. And this is

your purpose in the world, your distinctive contribution. And I think we see the other

things as functions of organization. I think they're important, obviously. But first, the calling

thing is the essential thing. Then when you put it in terms of what these do, I would argue that

when you look at it in terms of, and by the way, there's what we've developed along with some very

creative business people, a tool that helps people in the marketplace integrate 5Q dynamic. It's called

impact. I'll type it in when I've got some time. Brilliant test. Spent half a million dollars on the

thing way beyond my capacities. But taking 5Q dynamic in creating beautiful profiles, very,

very good tool for marketplace. But when you look at like these functions in terms of normal

organization, you say, well, apostolic is really your pioneering function, or it's your entrepreneurship,

your capacity to innovate new forms, to push to a new boundary. It's your R&D department, if you will,

your experimental side. And also, you know, you need to have, you know, to push out to frontiers,

because you can't over rely on what you currently got. Every organization needs that, friends.

I would argue that it's a function of organization, you need it. The prophetic is the aligning function,

to keep you aligned to the purpose of the organization. And also, you know, some of the ethics

and ethical kind of issues that you're going to be facing, they can call you on that kind of stuff,

which is important, because that's a key aspect of it. The evangelist is kind of your inbuilt

marketing department. You know, everyone with an Apple Mac is an evangelist, right?

It's good news. Why wouldn't you buy in on it, right? Well, of course, they call these

brand evangelists. Every organization needs a marketing department. If you don't have it,

you're not going to go anyway. Well, it depends what kind of organization you are.

But HR really is the shepherd and teacher function. If you combine the two, you get an HR function.

Shepherding is onboarding, helping people feel they flourish in a community, they're learning,

they're growing. Teaching is basically teaching procedure and, you know, the ideas that drive the

organization and keep it with integrity. So you actually find that the five-fold contains a fair

bit of, in fact, I would argue, all the essential functions of any organization.

That's the one, again, one way of saying these properly understood will actually provide all these things

for you. The other side of this is, I think it's important to see this in the church and say,

people say, how do we correspond this to elders or deacons, depending on your tradition?

And I'll say, I think that's referring to leadership, right? So I would say, keep them if you want to.

But see this, if you've got to watch me on this, but see this as a kind of a vertical dynamic. It's

your leadership structure. What APIS is, is your ministry structure goes across it. Where they intersect,

you'll find that you operate within a five-fold dynamic. So you can bring all the other functions

in, but you must resolve them from within a five-fold frame. And I would argue, once you do that,

you're bringing all the intelligence of the church to bear on all the issues, including money

and running things, managing the organization too. I don't know if that made any sense. I usually

need a whiteboard. I don't have one. And that's...

That's beautiful. Joey, did you have a follow-up?

Yeah, that's great. Anything else from you before you go?

No, that was great. And that's, I think, that's what makes the tool so,

the assessment so helpful. I think that, I think that's missing, right? I mean,

we look at the structure of the church and it's missing that connection. Because sometimes the

business is so overwhelming that overshadows the vocational side of it. And the mission is,

the mission is the one that's being forgotten. We just forgot the mission,

because we've got to run the business. And I think if we can bring that together,

we can actually make the business be a force behind it.

It's got to serve the mission, right?

Right. That can push the mission.

It serves the mission. Otherwise, you end up as an institutional or transactional

form of leadership where you're paying people to do a job. That can do some stuff,

but in the end it doesn't play well in the church, you know, where we're all kind of equal agents of God's

people.

So, Suzy, Stunami, people who don't have real names, any questions from you for Alan Hirsch?

Yeah, I've got two. So, again, the episode that Jeff and I did with Peyton Jones, which kind of

unboxed even just this opportunity for us tonight, Peyton was talking about how he feels that we are

entering into a new church season that is more focused on the church being spearheaded by the

apes rather than the shepherds' teachers. So, the first question that I have really revolves around

that. It's like, is that kind of what you're seeing as well? Because for me, it feels that way.

Like, a lot of people that we have on this podcast, this call right now, are more apostolic

in their giftings than it seems in teaching or shepherding. And obviously, Joey has that teaching

one in there, and I don't know that that surprised me too much, but would you agree with that, that

we're moving into a season that the church is kind of being moved and led more by those

apostles and prophets and evangelists right now?

I think there's a truth to that. Yes, I would say we are in a season of correcting

problematics in our kind of a legacy system. And I think that's really happening and it's a very

exciting part of the conversation is that we're having whole denominations take these things seriously

now. At last. But yes. So, yes, there's a correction needed because much of the way we

design the church up to this point has been designed around, actually, I've got to say,

it's not really caring. We're not, hey, no offence, friends, but we're not known to be the most

caring people in the world. So I don't know about our pastoral capacities. We can be a lot more caring.

But I think it's largely the legacy of the heritage church is built on teaching.

That's about just what it's all about pulpit and Bible study and all that. So it's a teacher's function.

It's one of the functions. But once you overdevelop it, you become, you know, it changes the equation. It's

completely overdeveloped. It's like you've got one strong arm here and everything else is like

weak, you know. And so we need to integrate these functions. And the church is, I think,

because of our missional scenario, our missional context is demanding that we actually rediscover

the more missionary, missional functions of the church, which is A, P, and E.

So if I can piggyback off of that question, because I feel like that you just,

I can almost guarantee that you just unlocked an aha moment for a lot of people listening. Because if the

church for the longest time has been sitting more under this being led by teachers, then there's a

lot of really theologically, uh, knowledged fat people who've been sitting there for a long time

with a lot of really good information, but not really being told what to do with it. So is that

kind of like that catalytic force that's leading to the, okay, I, God's gifted me as an apostle. God's

gifted me as an evangelist. Now it's time to get going and do something with what I've been taught.

Absolutely. And what, what the exciting thing about this is when not ever to see it as just as one

or two or three or fourfolds, at least fivefold form, because what you don't want also, uh,

is like an evangelist completely dominating the thing. So what happens there is that's called church

growth. So what happens with evangelists is recruit, recruit, recruit, right? So what you

happen is bringing people in. It's attractional, come to us, we're going to, you know, do this thing,

you're going to, and then I don't know what to do with them. Hey, just sit there and let's,

let's run a meeting. And what you ended up with the mega church, that's an overdeveloped evangelistic

function. What you don't want is any overdeveloped, any of the functions you need to come to balancing

agency of all the five functions to balance each other out and make sense of each other. So it's

very important, again, to exercise a discipline. While you're the corrective right now, Stu,

definitely, um, is to integrate the A, P, and E. E's in the game for the last 40 years, at least. But

A and P really are needed to be integrated properly. A particularly, because we have prophetic movements,

self and social justice or prayer movements. We don't have enough apostolic, and our understanding

of the apostolic is pretty bad. So we need to kind of integrate that, and there's a learning

moment for us there to integrate that. But never think of it just as one or two or three-fold. Don't

only think of it as leadership. Think of it as the functions of all God's people, and that

whole body can develop these functions. I think that's a breakthrough kind of body.

I've got a question. So, like, I scored, um, I scored, I don't know my numbers, which off the top

of my head, but Apostle was ridiculously high. Everything else was low. Um, and I've seen others

that, you know, the, the, it's more level, maybe one or two strengths, but it's maybe just a point

or two higher. It's more consistent across as opposed to the, you know, the, the rocky valley,

the sine wave. Um, is there, you said it doesn't matter. Like, do, do I interpret things differently

if it's a drastic difference like mine versus a more rippling wave like, like others? How,

how, how do we interpret some of those findings?

So, Jeff, again, another good question, brother. Um, technically the, the test, it shouldn't matter

too much the weight of score. Um, generally, unless of course you come up in your case,

you're saying it's like a, you know, it's a big peak between the two. Um, uh, where it does indicate

that you have strong functions, you know, in a certain area and you're weaker in certain other

functions. And what that will mean to you, bro, is that you have to, um, um, recognize that that

means that if you want to have a full five-fold impact, you need to have people on team or people

in, in your circle that counterbalance you, or you have other voices there from the five-fold

that can, can perhaps add value to you. Uh, if, if you're very flatlining, like some people are,

it means you're either very mature or, you know, you lack a distinctive. I don't think that's a

terrible thing if you, but you can always get better at all of them. If you think about Jesus

as the perfect five-fold, he is perfect, 10 out of 10 on all school, right? You know, that's pretty

good. Um, most of us don't have that. And most of us are strong at one, two, three. I would argue

your top three, your strong ones, the other two, your weakest ones. Here's the deal. You can get,

don't do a strength finder's mistake on this. Don't just go with your strengths, Jeff.

Um, but you can actually get better. If you want to become more like Jesus as the perfect five-fold,

you can get better at the other ones too. So perhaps in the second half of life,

you can start integrating your weakest. What do you suck at, brother? What's your,

what's the ones you suck at of all the five-fold?

Um, yeah. So probably, uh, shepherding is, is going to be low on that. Um, teaching is going

to be low on that. Yeah. Can you do those things? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I had, I had a midlife crisis,

um, that let me just 30 seconds. I actually was on a church staff that 95% of senior leadership and

campus pastors and everybody were, were apostles. And like, that was a giant wake up call for me

because I saw what a nightmare, all apostles without a balance was. And, and I, I started,

can we get somebody to actually care about an individual? I mean, we will, we all, all of us

want to go change the world, but none of us actually want to invest time in an individual. We're a fricking

church. And, um, and so it just, it really showed me honestly in real time, my weaknesses and, uh,

brought that about now. I feel like my personality is still incredibly strong, uh, towards the apostle,

but I always tell people like I'm self-aware. I know I'm a jerk. Uh, but I, that doesn't mean

I've stopped being a jerk. I just am sensitive to my, my overbearing.

Good. That's exactly, I think where you, and you can get better at those things. Now I'm saying you

will ever become a pastor. You probably won't, but you can get more caring and you should, um,

you shouldn't suck. Uh, you shouldn't be a jerk, you know, entirely. So I think it's just like,

you become more like Jesus. You can see it as an index of Jesus, uh, as a perfect five. If I want to

become more Christ-like, I can't become Christ-like by just double down, double downing on what I've

already got. It's a double apostle. You can, you likely to, if you just focus on one, become a

jerk. What you need to do is to become more like Jesus to integrate the ones as well. They're there

because they're in Jesus. Interesting. And you can't mock them. Yeah. Can't knock them. Don't mock them.

It's more about balancing it all together, not leaning into your strengths, operating.

All five are necessary. That's, that's, that's intriguing. Um,

Hey, uh, Susie, tsunami in any other question or thoughts on, on a pest here.

Yeah, I would, uh, I would love to hear, uh, Alan's thoughts on a specific topic.

I think we, you and Dr. John, I both mentioned, I think for me, when I, when I hear a lot of this

a pest and kind of discovering your role, I think the word freedom comes to mind to kind of figure out

who you are and who you're not and how it's okay to not be something. But I do think, Alan,

like you had mentioned earlier that the word pastor more so meaning the shepherd side of thing

just kind of gets assigned to almost all people that are, are in leadership at a church.

And I, I know I could speak from personal experience. I can feel almost that sense of pressure

that you're supposed to fulfill that more shepherd type role, spending a significant amount of your

time in these one-on-one meetings, praying, caring for people. And, uh, and I do, I love people

deeply, uh, but I find myself struggling with having such a deep, deep rooted strength in the

apostolic and the teaching role. And the reality is we all just have a finite amount of hours in the

day. When I sit down and sometimes when I sit down and pray, I go to pray for an individual

and I feel the Holy spirit filling my mind with vision. And I, and I feel this, this, this almost

guilt of like, I'm supposed to be focusing on an individual, but God is speaking to me more in an

apostolic role. And when I hear you kind of describing how really the five-fold ministry

is enough for the leadership, it's for the whole body. And it's, it's so enlightening to hear that

because over the past year, I've been really trying to put thought to God, how do we equip the whole

body to really lead and shepherd? But I'm getting to my question. I'm beginning to learn that really,

even the shepherding, the more pastoral care type role, sitting down, praying with people, caring for

them. There are so many people within the body don't have a title who are really gifted in that area,

but there's this pressure from the Christianity as a whole, that that type of stuff should be happening

from the pastor, the lead pastors, the people in those roles. How would you advise someone in my position

to really go about helping equip and teach the church that that idea of shepherding, the more caring side

can be happening from people in the church? And how would you go about really, I guess, starting that to be

more present in your church where shepherding can happen peer to peer rather than leader to congregant?

Well, my answer to that, and Dr. John might have a different one, but I think you've got to

the first thing I think is naming that these things actually belong within the body. By the way, you can

do, easily do exercises in this. You can say just to a group of people at the church, say, "Who here likes to

pioneer, try new things, innovate?" You know, you might not be even good at it, but can you do it?

People will put their hands up. Prophetic. You're sensitive to God, you know, you hear it, but you're not

sure sometimes if you're hearing right, but your issues of social justice is kind of issues to you.

Hands up. People put their hands up. Evangelists, you know, if you kind of like to share faith,

you might not even feel that good at it and confident, and you get my point. You can go all

the way through. Everyone will vote in on that. The shepherds, people who can care for people,

someone who likes to care for people. Are there people in the church here that like that?

Hands up. And you'll find that actually people will self-identify if you give proper definitions

and give space. I think the challenge at that point is then to have pathways to develop them into

becoming better. You don't want immature versions of these around, particularly of the first three.

They can be very damaging. So you want maturity, but you've got to take charge of that. You've got to

develop a pathway, a pipeline, if you will, within the church itself, or in the organization to develop

these things. Another one is to simply have tools by which people can learn to exercise. So for instance,

this is what we can do. And this is one of the tools I recommend in 5Q. It's very easy. The idea of

thinking hats. So in other words, it's a game you play. Everyone, we're just going to play this game.

We're going to put certain hats on. When you've got the hat on, you've got to think through the lens of

that hat or shut up. That's your deal, okay? So we're going to put APIS hats on. So, okay, we're

going to start. You can start anywhere you want, but you might start with, say, let's just go with APIS.

Okay, everyone, it doesn't mean you're an apostle, but everyone put the apostolic hat on. Now, we've

got the apostolic hat on. We look at the problem that we've defined through the lens of the apostle.

All of us have got to exercise that function. And so you, you know, and you begin to problem solve.

You can't bring other insights here. Don't worry about it. You'll get there. Okay, at a certain

point, someone leading it say, okay, now we're going to switch out, going to put a prophetic hat on.

Everyone put the prophet hat on. Now we think like prophets. So the prophets in the room feel more

comfortable, but the ones who are not have to learn to think through the lens of the prophet. Then you

put evangelistic, how are we going to get this out? How are we going to get people to buy in?

How do you, you know, you can see how this works, right? And so you can simply just define a problem

or a situation in the middle and then work around it. And at this point, you don't even have to use

names, titles. And in fact, I would be careful of titles, but you just have to do the function and

people will learn what these functions actually operate like. So that's one of the tools, but there are

many others you can, you can develop as well.

There's a, a, a,

Matt Penny in chat has a question, Alan, it's rather long and thought out, but the,

uh, the meat of, of what he's asking is like, how do we counterbalance the,

the shadow side of, of our, our strengths? Um, you know, I, I think I, we talked a little bit at the

the personal level, operating at the weaknesses, but even organizationally, if I would love for you

maybe to speak to that a little bit, uh, counterbalancing the, the, the shadow sides of, of a pest.

Well, um, years are going to be really hard because I think I need almost a whiteboard to

really answer that well. So I'm going to just, um, I hope I don't botch this. Okay. You just

push back on me if you feel I haven't answered this, but, um, um, what you can use here is like,

um, um, um, use the fivefold as the, as, as a sense of the measures and marks within the church,

right? So, um, for instance, every church, and I would say this is a good way of playing this out.

If you come from a tradition that denies apostle prophets, then what you can say to them is say,

okay, um, nonetheless, every church is meant to be apostolic. Forget the words of apostles.

Every church is meant to be apostolic, right? We're all sent. We're a sent people. We have a

certain function in the world that only we can fulfill. Everyone's going to agree with that. We're

one holy Catholic apostolic. We've been confessing this forever. So no one can deny that. So you say,

yeah, okay, but some of us are called to be apostles. Um, so, but, but the function of the

church is of apostolic. Um, and people say, you say, well, um, I believe the church is called to be

prophetic. You can say, I don't believe in prophets. I'd say you're wrong. The Bible's full of them, but,

uh, you can't tell me that the church is not meant to be a prophetic. No, you cannot. You're not allowed

to do that. Right. And so, um, you know, because we call to stand for God, sometimes at the pain of

death, we'll stand for, for God and, you know, for his purposes in the world. And we will sometimes cop

it for that reason. We'll speak truth to power and get into trouble. But the church is, when the church

doesn't do that, which is currently happening in my opinion, but nonetheless, um, we, we, we get into

all kinds of trouble. Uh, every church is meant to be evangelistic. You say, well, I don't believe

in evangelists. Yeah, but yeah, but every church is meant to be evangelistic, right? So, um, because

we're all called to be a good news people, we're meant to, you know, extend the good news in the world.

Every church is meant to be shepherding. We're meant to be a caring community. You're not

in to suck at that. No one's arguing the title, so you can go there with teacher as well. We're meant

to be wise people. We're meant to think through the mind of Christ and think through things with

wisdom. You need the teaching function. All five are needed. So you can then, based on that, you can

build out a kind of like a spidergram, okay? You can say, okay, let's look at your church. Do a

spidergram with one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, okay? And say A-P-E-E-S-D.

I don't have a diagram with me, but you can play this out. Okay, so what are you strong at?

And so you get people to riff on that, you know, we're strong at, well, let's, okay,

let's do an exercise. The average evangelical church in America, okay? It's a very broad category.

What are they strong at? I would suggest to you they're very strong at teacher. In fact,

I think, you know, that's the uber-strong one. And if you, you know, Presbyterian theology,

if it's Baptist, it's preaching, you know, but it's all about teaching.

Second strength, you would probably say shepherding. I'd say, yeah, but it's not as strong as teacher

because we're not known to be as caring as we ought to be. So I'm going to give it the second,

but it's not as, you know, the other one's got five. This has got maybe two and a half out of five.

Then what's the next one? I would say evangelist. Yeah, that's probably the next one. We still have

a very one-dimensional understanding of evangelism, but I think it's there. So that's two and a half.

Let's give it equal to the shepherding. What's the next one? Is the prophetic? Well, verily,

verily, verily, we don't even believe in that stuff. So how can you even acknowledge the prophetic

function if you don't acknowledge, you know, don't have the language for it? And then you verily suck

at an apostle. So what you've got here is a church that's very high on teaching and doesn't have

strengths in the other areas. What's the standard answer for a church? How does it resolve its problems?

If you already double down on the teaching gift, what's the answer? How do you, you know, how do you

improve this church? Thinking through the lens of the teacher. Well, more teaching. We're going to

do a preaching series. You know, it's more that. Now, the question is, will more teaching resolve your

problems? No, they won't. You're already as good as you're going to get. Double down there doesn't

change anything. How do you do this? You go with your weakest points. Find the one that you suck at

and develop it out. If it's prophetic, learn what it is, try and develop it, go for a year or two,

upgrade it, and then you do another kind of assessment. And this is what we call a 5Q diagnostic.

And it's really important to develop your fivefold functionality in the local church. Again,

5Q Central is the place to go for that. Again, long answer without a link in the show.

No, that's beautiful. Short answer. Hilmi wants to know what your top function of the five is.

Mine is somewhat varies depending on my situation, but I like the apostolic. I have a certain version of

that teacher. I love the ideas you hear that. I love sharing ideas. And the prophets. Every now and

again, I get grumpy and put the boots in. And those three swim very dynamically with me. And I've had to

learn how that works. Does it make sense?

At the moment... Sorry?

No, sorry. Go ahead.

At the moment, I'm probably strongest on the prophetic, and then I feel called to call the church to change

and repentance around most things at the moment. So the prophet's really strong at the moment. I don't

like it, but it's where God has got me at the moment.

Does it make sense to take the test again, to take the assessment every couple of years? Do we see

our scores age over time? What does that look like?

Yes. It could very well do, because often a change in circumstance will change your gifting. You'll

learn, you'll bring others up to the four. Generally, my experience, Jeff, is that you will

probably operate out of your first three, but you can always get better at the other ones.

And depending on your current scores, but yes, I would definitely say it's worth

giving it a shot to see if you're getting better at things.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so Whitebeer was asking that one. Hilmi is asking again, and she asked this a couple of

times, what function is missing? Let's assume within the US church. I know you're Australian,

but judge what you can. What do you think is the biggest missing point for us?

Well, I spent 13 years serving the US church. I think I've known this a little bit anyway.

I think the apostolic function is the least understood of the lot. And when it is understood,

it usually comes to see, oh, I'm going to dominate you, you're my bitch, kind of language.

And I think that is what the Bible calls the false apostolic. So I think that's the one that's

least understood. In the prophetic function, we tend to go one way or the other. Prophet,

there's two dimensions to the prophet primarily, the vertical functionality, the mystical prayer,

spiritual warfare dynamic, God orientation, that God stuff is very important. Prophets,

very attentive to that. But the other side is the social justice one. What you get in America tends

to go vertical or horizontal. It's not both. In the Bible, it's meant to be both. So the prophets are the

ones that say, I hate your worship services. You know, all your glory clouds and all the stuff you

get up to, I hate them, unless you do justice, right? So the two are meant to be integrated.

If you've got like churches that are so big into glory clouds and stuff, but they don't do any justice,

that's not biblical. If it's biblical prophecy, it's both. And I said that two of those are

probably the least understood of the world.

You know, I just want to keep score at home. Those of keeping score at home, Alan said,

bitch twice in one broadcast. Maybe we can shoot, maybe we can shoot for three. Let's see how it

ends. But go ahead, Stu, what you got? Well, I mean, it could be possible because I am going to ask a

question around that apostolic wiring. So let's see where this goes. So you feel like that's the one that

has been somewhat missing, especially for the US church. Now, let's say that that comes to the rise.

How do you stop those who are gifted with that apostolic wiring to not get bored with the new

thing that they got started to then run away and leave it unhealthy? Because that's the dark side of

the apostle, right? It's like, they're go, go, go. Okay, this is nice. Ooh, shiny over here,

right? So it's missing, but it could also have a very dangerous aspect when it comes to the rise.

Yeah, true. So I would argue there's nuance to the type of apostle. The big categories in the New

Testament would be Paul and Peter. Paul is the, what we call entrepreneur, goes to the edges. He's

the guy you don't want hanging around too long. He's going to blow things up, right? You don't go on

vacation with Paul, okay? It's just a bit hardcore.

And Paul keeps moving. You've got to keep an assent. This is important.

Peter, on the other hand, is called to Israel. And Peter calls the home base, the church in our case,

is able to speak within the language, the love language of the organization and generate it,

move it to the edges from within. And I think you need both. So don't just, there's a subtlety

in the apostolic function that we need. I'm more Petrine form. People I know are much more than

what to call, you know, the Pauline form. So I think there's a difference there.

The other thing is, Rose, I would say, God has given these to every church. I would say,

before you move off, uh, make sure that all five functions are operative in the local church and

you weren't. God will know to look after it from there. So activate it in the local church,

help people grow, and then you can move on. I didn't get the B word. I was trying.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me, let me, let me try. Um, that's interesting. Amanda, Amanda just posted

her scores, um, for, for a pest. And so she's strong, a, um, and shepherd secondary. You were strong,

a as well. Um, what's it be like to be married to, uh, to an AA. Do we normally see that, that type of

pairing? I w I would think like you would typically see more marriages be more complimentary, less,

um, exact mirror. Um, I'm not asking for like meat, like insights on your marriage, but you know,

do you, do you feel that tension? That's what he's trying to get. Yeah. No, it's, I'm actually

excited to get off this call because I, I'm, I think she is, I think she is very surprised at, uh,

at those results. Cause we don't, we don't, we don't clash in that area at all. She is very much,

I'm, I have been very much a, here's where I think God wants us to go. She is very much a,

I can figure out the details of how we're actually going to get there. Uh, so we don't really clash

at all. Uh, so I'm actually really surprised by those results. I think she, my understanding of

hers, she is surprised by those results. So I'm very excited for a great conversation later tonight,

because that is unexpected for sure. The church digital bringing marriages together once again,

I was just going to say like, uh, one, she's got a secondary shepherd, which kind of always qualifies.

The shepherd is a human kind of a, it's got a high EQ functionality. They know, so it's a good

combination when you've got someone who can be a driving, but you know, the apostolic can be a

little more hard driving, the combination, really the shepherd can bring people with them. So that's

great combo. And then the other side, I would simply say when a test is a test and this is a

verified test, it's been a lot of money trying to get it statistically aligned, but we feel free to

say, you know, if you know your definitions properly, give each other feedback and say,

oh, I don't think that's true. You know, I think you're more of this and settle for that. Don't let the

test get the final say, interact with it, uh, as human beings. And I'd say like any team of people,

do the test because I think it takes guesswork out. But if you didn't have the test, if you want

to sit down together and let me say, I was taking Jeff, we were, we were church over here, all of us

together, kind of which we are. And I'll say, Jeff, okay, I'm going to coach you in front of everyone.

Tell me, bro, of all the five, we've got our definitions right, which is number one. He's going

to say, apostle. I'll say, why is that the case? And he's going to tell us his story, right? As to

why he thinks that's the case. We're going to get the feedback to say, everyone, do you think he is

that or not? Uh, and they say, yeah, for sure. No, he's an evangelist. And by the way, people do get

those two mixed up all the time in America, particularly, by the way, just be careful.

Um, um, and so, you know, so we're going to give him 360 feedback and you can do it like that.

It's good because it's very relational and we need others to, to be ourselves. I need the body

to give me feedback. I know my, I got to know my impact upon other people. And that's the important

thing. So that's advice I would give you there. I appreciate that. This has been, this has been so

good. You know, Alan, I want to thank you. It's, it's Thursday morning. Like it's the next day in

Australia and, and well, Alan's waking up early starting the day with us here on the podcast. I, I do,

you know, it's funny, Stu, we've, we've now had basically two entire podcasts in the past month

on a pest and I still feel like we're just scratching the surface on this thing. Like I,

I did not even dream we would spend this entire podcast, just talking a pest and here we are doing

it. And so, you know, so good. So good. Yeah. I, Alan, I do want to ask you a non a pest question.

And so, you know, you're here with the church digital, our listeners podcast, the people that

are in this discord room, the, the, the planters and the pastors and the, that we're working with.

Um, I mean, we're all innovative people. We're all outside of the box, uh, digital and virtual

planting. You know, we've all taken bullets, um, so to speak, you know, for, for the ministry that

we're doing, you know, and, um, in, in recent years, I've taken to the saying and I kind of use

this mantra on my streams and encourage my people this way that, that pioneers get shot, settlers get

rich. And so, you know, Susie's a pioneer. He's been doing this nine years. And for nine years,

he's been taking bullets taking bullets for virtual, like, I don't, I don't need to sell you on this

concept, Alan, you understand you've been doing church innovation for a long time, maybe not in

the digital space, but you were, you know, redefining with minimal ecclesiology and a bunch of these

other things that I wanted to get into in this conversation. We just didn't get into today.

How do we do innovation without getting shot? Like, is that, is that actually possible? Is it,

hey, you're going to take bullets for a season and then it gets better? Like from, from a guy that's

been around the block a couple of times in this movement thing, um, in this church innovation space,

I'm asking for some coaching. What do I tell my people, my team, my churches, the planters that we're

working with when they're getting bullets? What, how do I, how do I, how do I help them in that?

Oh gosh. Um, that's kind of a pastoral question.

Excuse me. I'm putting on the shepherding hat here, right? You know, the, the apostle would have

been like, I'm going to go swinging with you. Let's go. But I mean, seriously, like what, how do,

how do we, what do we do? Yeah. I think, I think it's, it's, it's a difficulty that all organizations

have, you know, like if you think of like any institution, it resists innovation because,

the very, um, active innovation assumes that what we got isn't good enough. And, um,

well, in, in the, in the business world, that, that institution will not last very long because

without innovation, particularly in the disruptive kind of marketplace that we find ourselves now,

you're not going to survive. So businesses know that because the bottom line is going to be impacted

by our incapacity to do R and D and research and have alternatives. Uh, you need more than one line

in the water. The church on the other hand is not good at this and, um, and basically does persecute

its innovators and it kills its profits. And it has done this for a long, long time. Um, but I would say

that, um, there are, there's some change now in organizations, particularly denominations that are

in deep decline. They're desperate enough now to recognize that more of the same is not going to

get different results. And I would say, um, yeah, there's been a change in the last 10 years or so,

partly because of APS typology and the language is getting out there. So the, the functions are

broadening out. And so, but it's still weighted in favor of the status quo, bro. And Jeff, I don't

know, is there any easy answer to that, bro? I think you, if you do take bullets, take it for Jesus.

And if they killed him, they're going to kill you too. And he said, he says that, doesn't he?

Um, there's a side where if you're going to change something, if you want to change it,

actually, let's say this also, Martin Luther King Jr. said that which you would change,

you must first love. So I think, you know, the fact that we love the church enough to speak to it

and call it into a new reality is really important. Um, whether the church will always recognize it,

uh, don't know. I'll tell you what, uh, I haven't been run out of town for a few years now,

but I have been run out of town a couple of times. Um, so it has happened. Um, but less and less so,

I think something's changing. That which you love, that which you want to change,

you must first love Martin Luther King. Yes. That is a incredible quote. I had, I had,

I don't think I'd heard that one before. Yeah. Otherwise you end up bitch slapping it.

There you go, Steve. Yes. That's three. That's what it is. That's a hat trick here. Um, I got,

I got to figure out how to ship. If he'll be still on, we got to ship the church digital hat to

Australia, uh, because Alan Hirsch just won himself a hat trick. Hey, Alan. So, uh, here on,

on YouTube, if you're watching, do you want the black or do you want the gray and white? Which one

do you want? Because you just got the hat trick here on episode 300. What color do you want?

Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I'm usually a black kind of guy. So, okay. I, we will, we will figure out the,

the details. We're going to get you a, uh, a black hat. We'll talk off offline for that, but this,

this has been, this has been awesome. Um, you need to make, you need to make a merch shirt that says

that Alan Hirsch hit the hat trick live. Tell me three times on episode 300.

Yeah. And it's gotta have like, it's gotta have like the mouth covered with like the, uh,

money marker exclamation.

What did you just say? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Her, her team, Barbara's team word revolution is,

is, is incredible. And, um, I'm sure they are actively, uh, Barbara is all over that. Barbara

isn't, um, Barbara, Barbara's in Portugal. And so I don't even know what time it is there. It's

probably midnight, uh, 1 AM her time. So thank you even for being up this late Barbara. Hey,

so we're going to land the plane. Um, guys, this has been so good. Um, you know, I know we've had

a lot of tech issues here, uh, with this podcast, uh, God bless Dr. John only able to jump on for

a minute or two. Um, and, um, uh, you know, I honestly, I I've listened to him talk. It's like,

Dr. John, I want to do a podcast with you and just, and so look for him in the podcast to really start to,

to, to, to flesh through what he was, uh, some of the stuff that he's working on. Um,

you know, Joey came in for just a minute as well. Uh, he had some, um, things with his church at a

bar, a Bible study was meeting that he had to step into at a relational level. And so, uh, but Hey,

this has been a solid conversation. Susie Stunami. Um, I feel like we need a cool name for Alan Hirsch

to, to end the night. Hershey is, is that, no, I would probably overstep boundaries by saying that.

I respect you very much. You start running in a trademark. Hershey something trademark.

Hershey.com. All of a sudden that seasoned assist letter from, uh, from the chocolate company gets

here very quickly. But, um, Alan, seriously, sir, thank you for, you know, investing the time coming

into this and, um, and, and really speaking, um, life into a, to a generation of churches here in

digital space that is hungry for lessons like this. You know, I mean, uh, the fact that Susie is foaming

at the mouth, the guy that's been doing this at not for nine years, um, you know, and it is, you know,

just recently getting back and stepping up his involvement again. But as a result of that is

hungry. And, and honestly, Susie, when, when I was like, Hey, who am I bringing from gamer church?

I'm bringing in Susie. Cause dude, this stuff would, would go nuts over if he can really wrap

his brain around this, like, this is going to be so powerful. And so in, in Stu, whatever this looks

like in VR, you're the guy to figure that out, man. And so I love where we're going. Uh, white beard is

going to close the night by calling Alan Hirsch, the Hirschinator. And so that's what we're going

to go with because it's a, it's a, it's not a public, uh, it's not a private secret. Uh, white beard

runs the church digital discord. And so I'm going to land episode 300 by saying this for the church

digital. Uh, we got Susie, we got Stunami, uh, we got Jeff and we got the Hirschinator signing off.

Thanks for all for joining us tonight. And we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good one.

Bye.