EP306 Digital & Mental Health - Stigmas in the Church

It's something we say in mental health space and in recovery space, you're only as sick as your secrets.

Now that's more in terms of addiction, but even in the sense of mental health, when you have to carry this burden privately, it's just heavier.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the Church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

We've got episode 306.

Jeff Reed here, founder of Church Digital.

We're excited. We're kicking off a new season.

I've had so many seasons.

I don't even know what season number this is.

I want to say it's season eight.

If I had Whitebeard here in Discord, he would fact check me and tell me correctly.

But he's not in the room yet.

And so I think it's season eight.

The season, I'm really excited about this season, though.

We're doing a deep dive on mental health.

Whitebeard is in the room.

Thank you, sir.

We were just talking about you.

By the way, before we get into this, like we're doing this live recording on Discord.

We do this on the TCD Discord server every Tuesday or Wednesday.

So we will have all of the live recordings in the events board listed there.

But check it out Tuesday or Wednesday as we typically do TCD recordings.

And so like this season, we're doing obviously mental health.

Whitebeard, I was asking you to fact check me.

What season am I on?

This is a new season.

We just wrapped up season seven.

Wait, that's a church.

Or was that season eight?

Wait, that's a church.

I don't know if you can get that number, but see, so we're on season nine.

He's telling me season nine.

Wait, that's a church.

I freaking love Whitebeard.

He's like the perfect fact checker for everything until he like gets an attitude and starts correcting me.

It's one thing to fact check me, but then correcting me is completely different.

But so we're in season nine.

Thank you, Whitebeard.

Wait, that's a church.

No, we are on season nine of mental health in digital, digital and mental health.

And so there's so much implication centered around mental health in digital ministry.

A, ourselves as we're doing ministry in that space.

B, as we're ministering to people in a mental health environment.

C, protecting ourselves as we're in sometimes addictive environments and dealing with people

that have addiction type tendencies and issues, not to even get into other mental issues that people might be dealing with digitally.

It was interesting, and a stream yesterday was talking with the group, talking about the season that was kicking off.

And they started sharing examples of stories of people that they've dealt with, that have had mental issues.

And it seems like in digital ministry, like once you really get beyond broadcast and get into relational aspects of digital ministry, digital church, digital missions work,

you really find yourself engaging with people that are in dire straits, that have more needs, that are more open to conversing about it than they are in physical space.

So I'm excited for this season.

We've got eight weeks coming in, and I'm going to bring Megan Carter on, who's obviously, you can see her.

But Megan is, I'm not going to lie, she's the brainchild of this season.

I just said to Megan, hey, I want to do a season on mental health, will you help me?

And she designed the episodes and the questions and really is, you know, she's going to take over the Church Digital Podcast for the next eight weeks.

And I'm just going to be like a pretty eye candy on YouTube for you all.

No, but it's really excited about this.

Megan, why don't you just set the stage a little bit and introduce yourself?

Yeah, so Megan Carter, I'm on staff at First Capital Christian Church slash Church Anywhere, has multiple names, depending if you're in person or online.

So, yeah, I get to be part of the staff and Next Steps Pastor.

There's a lot that goes along with that.

It's hard to sum up in like a sentence what that does, but it's basically guiding people into whatever their next step may be.

And so a big part of that and my passion that God's placed in my heart and something that I've personally dealt with is mental health.

So going through trainings to just become aware of more than what I've just dealt with, but what other people are struggling with and be able to help them in other ways as well is huge passion of mine.

And so getting to step into something like that is awesome.

And so I'm excited to partner with you guys and do this as well and meet some awesome guests that we're going to have on this episode or these seasons.

Yeah, so I'm excited about the episodes here that Megan's put together.

And so the first one that she put together was what we're talking about today, mental health stigmas and the church.

And I honestly, my contribution was, okay, let me, you know, connect the dots and see who would be an interesting person to talk about the mental health stigmas.

And DJ Chong quickly rose up for this episode.

So DJ, my gosh, he is, I mean, I want to call you a OG of digital ministry because dude's been doing digital ministry like before, maybe before I was like, he's been doing this for such, such a long time.

And I feel like DJ, you know, people tell me, Jeff, you know, everybody, I don't know anybody compared to DJ Chong, DJ Chong's network and relationship pool is incredible.

I mean, at one point he was running a database of churches that were doing ministry online.

Like you could, if you started broadcasting, you would check in with DJ to let him know that you were doing like literally like that was the extent what was happening was incredible.

And so DJ, maybe just introduce yourself here a little bit and tell, tell the audience who you are.

Well, thank you, Jeff.

It's OG just means I'm old.

I just turned 58 in July.

I'm so honored to be here and being the kickoff, the lead off hitter for your series, which, which means I can get on base, but your next three people are going to provide the grand slam, which will be amazing.

And so mental health is such a big issue.

It's a global crisis.

Our Surgeon General here in the U.S.

has acknowledged that loneliness is a crisis, an epidemic, and that's only just one part of mental health.

Before I dig into that, share with you who I am.

I've been blogging for over 20 years, so that's kind of the history I've had with online, the online world, and just continue to use the latest technology, social media, podcasting.

I think we started social media church back in 2012, 2013, something like that, 500 episodes there.

Handed it off to Noel Smith.

He continues to run that.

I'm actually coming to you live from Silicon Valley today.

Happened to be up here doing some networking and co-working.

Married 29 years.

Went to Virginia Tech for my undergrad, computer engineering.

Went to Dallas Seminary, so I have a background in technology and theology.

Worked in church for five years and realized I can be an okay pastor, but who needs an okay pastor?

My journey is realizing God uses not just my skills, but also my passion.

And so 24 years ago, how I got into mental health ministry is part of my own experience.

I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at the age of 35 when I left vocational pastoring.

And the past 24 years has been a personal recovery journey, but also continuing to serve the church at large with the capital C and outside of its church walls.

And one of the things I realized is every time I share my mental health journey, that it opens more doors for ministry than when I open the Bible.

And so the online space has been a great place to connect with people.

And I'll unpack a bit more of that as we continue this conversation.

So thank you for inviting me to be part of this conversation at TCD.

Love it.

And so what I want to say, and I'm looking forward to so much there, even to digging into the dealing with the bipolar 25 years ago.

Like, oh, my gosh, that begs so many questions right here.

The church response in that space and how it's evolved over time.

You know, we've got six people in the room.

Hector watching this live.

Hector, Whitebeard, Whatta Rob.

Flatcap, Walt, First Pet.

If you guys got questions, put them in chat.

We'll try to engage, pull them in into the conversation as we're going.

And I'll tell you what.

Let me ask that question, and then I want to back off.

25 years ago, you were diagnosed with bipolar.

I'll say for me, doing ministry 25 years ago, I, as a pastor, had no idea how to deal with bipolar people.

Like, and so, like, I mean, I don't want to say, like, I would shove them off.

But it was, it was, for me, it was way too complicated to understand even how to do that.

And sadly, I know pastors 25 years later today that are still probably responding in that same way.

How did, how did the church perceive you 25 years ago when you kind of were, like, was it open hands?

Was it, was the question marks?

Like, talk to me a little bit about that journey, about a personal level, what you've had to deal with.

Yeah, so 25 years ago, I was 35 years old.

And I think looking back at my life, middle school, high school, I've always had symptoms and feelings of depression and sadness, but not to the degree where I couldn't function.

And so, since I could survive, hold down a job, do okay in school, I wouldn't think of going to a counselor to get help because I'm okay, I'm surviving.

And because of the shame and stigma as a Chinese American, all the more reason not to seek mental health treatment.

And back then, 25 years ago, there wasn't much conversation about mental health.

And my only point of reference when it came to bipolar disorder was there was another guy in our church who had bipolar with much more severe symptoms, where he couldn't function for months at a time.

And he couldn't hold down a job for months at a time.

And so, his symptoms were so pronounced that for a couple weeks, he'd be super energetic, super outgoing.

And then for another month, he would be so sad and so depressed and could barely talk to people.

And so, the mood swings, which is what bipolar disorder is a diagnosis around, you have very high highs and low lows.

So, it looks like one moment, you're super man, super energetic, super outgoing, and maybe misbehaving a little bit.

And then depression, just sad and blue.

Now, my symptoms were not so pronounced until I had some stressful moments in my life.

So, over the past 25 years, every three to five years, I have some stressful episodes like moving cross-country or changing jobs or being laid off.

And those are triggers that affect my mood regulation where I need to adjust my medication and seek some extra professional help to get readjusted and normalized.

So, that's a quick snapshot of what bipolar disorder, number two, there's two kinds.

There's number one and number two.

I can't tell the difference, but mine's number two, which means it's less severe than some others.

How did you feel during that time?

Did you feel supported by certain people?

Were they in the church, out of the church?

Or did you feel that stigma on you?

I think a lot of people can relate with that.

Like, I can.

I have that same kind of story of dealing with that.

So, I'd love to hear kind of your perspective.

Well, when it comes to mental health 25 years ago and even now, it's by default a private and heavy burden carry.

There's not many safe places where you can just let your hair down and share more openly about what you're struggling with.

And certainly, 25 years ago, even more so, where it was just a private thing that my pastor and a few close friends and even just a few family members knew about.

But not all my family knew about it.

And certainly not my church.

And so, when you have a secret, and something we say in mental health space and in recovery space, you're only as sick as your secrets.

Now, that's more in terms of addiction.

But even in the sense of mental health, when you have to carry this burden privately, it's just heavier.

And the Bible talks about when we share our burden, it becomes lighter.

Sharing burdens to one another, and you will be healed and lighten your burden.

So, over the years, I've found a few safe places, even some online, which we'll get into the past three years.

I go to a little church called Saddleback.

Some of you may have heard of it.

And I've been part of the mental health ministry at that church.

And I host a Zoom-based support group where we meet every week for an hour.

And people feel cared for and supported because it's a safe place.

And so, that's been really cool.

And I think there's so many opportunities in the online space because people are more open because of a sense of intimacy that when you're in person, you just don't know.

People take a little more risk.

And because we don't yet know each other, then we're like, well, what's there to lose?

I'll share a little bit more online.

And certainly, there's good guidelines on how to facilitate the safe space to make sure it continues to be safe online.

And there's plenty of online spaces where it's not safe, what you call it, Twitter, X, or Reddit, or so on.

Do you find, and I know you've been doing digital a long time, you were engaging in Twitter.

It was funny.

Actually, my first time I met you, I was with Eric Geiger, who's now lead pastor over at another small church, Mariners, right down the street from you.

And Geiger, this is years ago, he was executive pastor at a church here in Miami, and Geiger was infatuated with you.

Like, he could not believe that you had a mega church of people, over 1,000 people following you on Twitter.

Like, Jeff, there's a mega church of people that are listening to what this guy, DJ Chong, says.

Can you imagine a mega church listening to people online?

Like, in his mind, you were like the first Christian influencer or something.

But you've been doing this a long time.

Do you find that people are open to talking digitally?

Like, you know, I know some people are hesitant to do recovery-type conversations online.

They view it from a negative perspective.

But you've been comfortable discussing it in your safe spaces digitally.

Like, do you find that that's trustworthy information, that it's healthy?

Like, how do you manage detention or have the conversation when people are like, no, you can't do recovery in digital space.

It has to only be visited.

Boy, that's a lot of impact.

Because the magic and the opportunity of online is it's a wild, wild west, and it's wide open.

So there's so much tension in the online space, and it's the loudest and the ugliest voices that have been polarizing and painted the online space as something dark and nasty and shouting.

But with the right people and the right use of technology, you can create safe spaces that can be very intimate and very powerful.

But those safe spaces are not just done in the wide open internet.

So I don't think you can create safe spaces in the public Twittersphere or I don't know if they call it Xphere or Reddit.

But I think you can create it on a private Facebook group, and I can give you examples of that.

I'll give you two concrete examples because I've been part of them, and they've worked.

A private Facebook group can do it.

A Zoom meeting can do it.

Reddit, if you have that privacy or membership entry point, then that gives you the technical guardrails to create that safe space because you don't want trolls coming in and out.

So, for example, in VR space, that would be challenging to do it because in rec room or whatever, trolls just come in there.

So you don't want that.

But technology can also allow memberships, and people can come in after you approve them.

I don't know Discord well enough if you can control access to some things.

I know in Mighty Network you could.

So two examples I'll mention.

One is called Subtle Asian Mental Health.

It's a private Facebook group with 61,000 members, volunteer-run, and it's been around for about three or four years.

It's all kinds of Asian Americans around the world, English-speaking, and people can post anonymous questions and get peer support from other Asian Americans who have shared their mental health reality.

And we do moderate the group with volunteers, and so the content is vetted, and we don't have triggers.

And so it's become a safe space for 61,000 members.

I don't know if you like it for Christians.

There's a few small ones for Christians, but it takes a little bit of manpower to really shepherd that space.

And there's a Christian Mental Health Facebook group on Facebook that has maybe 1,000 people, but there's not the ongoing conversation like the Subtle Asian Mental Health with 61,000 members a week at least 10 to 20 posts a day.

So once you have a critical mass and a momentum, then it feels like it's a lively place instead of a ghost town.

Now, the other example I'll share is what I participated in at Saddleback Church.

We have a Zoom support group.

That's been meeting since September of 2021.

And we've gone through seven rounds of a workbook called Living Grace, which starting August 1st will be free, a free digital workbook about mental health and faith.

Living Grace is the name of the book.

And when you have show notes, I'll send the links to you.

And it's a 16-week workbook that integrates faith, facts, and future.

Faith is a spiritual devotion, grounds us, grounds our mental health realities in scripture.

And scripture's got plenty to say of our human condition.

And when it comes to mental health, they don't use that phrase, but, you know, there's anxiety, there's worry, there's suicidal ideation, depression, grief, it's suffering.

It's all throughout the scripture.

It's part of our human condition.

But our vernacular lingua franca is mental health.

And so grounding in scripture, facts is neuroscience.

So the person that designed the curriculum, Matthew Stanford and Joe Padilla, really wanted to ground it in psychology and science so that we understand what's going on in our mind and our relationships and our emotions.

And then future, so three Fs because they like to alliterate, future is practical skills that we can practice as a part of our mental and emotional health.

Because mental health is not something you can just think your way out of, you need to engage your body and develop some new practices.

So those are two excellent examples of what we can do in online spaces to create safe places for supporting one another and caring for one another in mental health.

That's awesome.

I absolutely love that.

And I'm going to have to check out that whenever it's available, because that's going to be so cool.

I would love to hear, I think I could probably sit and listen for hours or days of stories you have, but I would love to hear like a story of how walking through with someone in maybe even a religious space in a church or on digitally ministry, how that like successfully happened.

And then even on the flip side, what have you seen where it's like went downhill real quick and it's not been helpful to the other person?

Maybe two kind of stories like that.

I'll take the second one first because we've been spared and blessed from having to deal with the really challenging cases, which is kind of the initial fear that many of us have when we try to enter into the mental health care and support space.

Oh, what if this or this happened and we can't handle it, and yes, we want to go in discerning and prepare, but those edge cases are rare that you do want to be prepared.

So in most cases, 90%, 95%, people just need care and support, prayer, someone that can listen empathetically and nonjudgmental and validate their experiences.

We all have feelings and thoughts that fly by in our mental radar, and just as in Asian culture and perhaps in non-Asian cultures too, we say don't trust our feelings, but we also can't trust our thoughts.

Not all of them, but we do need discernment as we experience all of life, and that's where the Word of God and the Spirit of God really helps us.

But where we've seen amazing stories of healing and support, I'm actually in conversation with a lady in North Carolina who has had so many mental and physical challenges that over the past three years, because we've held this space for her online, she's been able to experience healing and strength and hope and temper,

and now she's moving into her purpose.

Just this past week, we had a sermon from Artie Kendall, the Reverend Dr. Artie Kendall from Britain was a speaker at Saddleback Church, and he talked about total forgiveness, and that really touched our heart to release some of the pains of the past so that she can continue her healing journey.

And then she's had ups and downs, as many of us have up and down when we live with some of the more mental health challenges, and we've been able to pray and support her through some of those.

So through the darkest times, we are there with her just as Jesus is with her through the dark valleys, and we're not alone.

So I'll summarize it this way, the most valuable thing when it comes to having support groups, in addition to professional therapy or medication, is that having a support group helps us to know we're not alone.

And when we know we're not alone, not just with an invisible God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and all that is true and grounded, having a fellow brother and sister, a human person that we can talk to, just adds to the care and support we need to go through this thing.

And the way I say it is, I can use all the help I can give, so I need the Trinity, I need the Church, I need my online relationships, I need my in-person relationships, I need healthy eating, exercise, sleep.

Sleep, I sleep seven, I sleep nine hours a night plus a nap.

So that's what my body needs.

That's what my body needs, which means I have to be very efficient with my waking hours to do what I do.

Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because the whole person is so important when we deal with mental health and our spiritual, physical, all this.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jeff, you're holding the mic, you have a question or a comment.

Yeah, this is my comfortable position, holding it.

I'm actually getting a new arm, and so I'm gonna miss this.

If you're watching on YouTube, if I screw up, I'll move my hand down and these bars actually pinch, and I've pinched my fingers a couple of times there.

Hey, DJ, if you can adjust your mic on your head a little bit, I think it's rubbing on the skin and giving us some rubbing noise.

Maybe try that and get it into a different spot, or maybe it's your collar, but we'll just be sensitive to that.

It is my collar.

You'll have to edit.

Yeah, we'll see what we can do.

Fix it in post.

Let me ask.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Mage.

It's Andy's problem.

He'll have to deal with it.

So, do you feel like, and now you're at Saddleback, you know, creators of Celebrate Recovery, Kay Warren, I know recovery mental health was a big deal for her when Rick and Kay were there at the church.

Do you feel like the, so mental health is a big deal for Saddleback, historically, and I assume that legacy is still moving forward with the new leadership that is there.

When you look at the church in general, is the church still receptive?

I know during COVID, it felt like a mental health was all the rage because everybody was in lockdown and was freaking out.

You know, the push is for everybody to get back to normal, whatever normal means.

Is the church in general, are they receptive to ideas about mental health still?

Is there challenges and negativity towards that or, or agnosticism, not wanting anything to do with it?

Like what's, what's a temperature check for the church in 2024?

Well, let me zoom out first.

Um, the latest research had been focused on the impact of COVID.

So that's the hard data from surveys in terms of how the church was responding to COVID and mental health.

And it's kind of a coin toss about 50% of Christian churches are anti-psychology because that's been the history of psychology that, uh, because some of it was founded on humanistic, um, research and theories.

There's a reaction from more conservative Christians against, uh, mental health categories.

So there's a significant movement of networks and platforms and teachings that are called biblical counseling, where the Bible is sufficient for everything we need.

So we don't need psychology.

And so there are churches like that that are against using mental health categories and languages and diagnoses.

And so any challenge we face with depression, anxiety, and so on is just a spiritual problem.

Now, some people are helped with that minimalistic approach, but I know and believe many people are not helped with just a small approach to mental health challenges.

And so maybe half the church are more open to integrated approach where faith is a resource for mental health treatment and recovery.

I'm working, I'm working, I'm working, I'm working and connecting with people in both secular spaces, non-faith spaces, as well as faith spaces.

And what's surprising is non-faith, non-Christian people are more open to faith and spirituality as a resource and as a support for mental health recovery than some pastors.

It's kind of backwards in my book, but whatever the case may be.

Um, some churches are not receptive, but some are, uh, the crisis, the mental health crisis.

I'll use the word crisis epidemic is so big that there's so much work to do.

And churches are generally speaking are not as engaged as they could be because there's so many programs that churches are more concerned about, whether it's children's ministry, youth ministry.

Uh, celebrate recovery, the weekend worship, small groups, and just keeping the church running.

So mental health tends to take a back seat, even though mental health challenges affect at least 20% of our general population.

And people in church are just as human as everybody else.

So, you know, 20% of people in your church, and if they're not struggling, then they probably know someone who's struggling with friends and families.

And so, uh, some of the thought leaders have recognized that mental health is the greatest mission field.

It's the greatest ministry.

It's the greatest felt need that the church can take bold step in caring and supporting for people without necessarily getting people through professional training that takes two to four years of graduate studies and thousands of hours of supervision.

And the living grace curriculum that I mentioned has an online training that just takes 45 minutes to train up group leaders that can facilitate a support group, whether online or in person.

And the first two times I did the group, I literally just read the workbook word for word to test if the curriculum could stand on its own.

I've been able to train up two or three other co-hosts and it's helped people experience care support over the years.

Yeah.

I can't wait to see that.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

I, um, somebody kind of posted in here about, uh, somebody talking about, is it okay for Christians to take antidepressants?

And I, I was kind of going that same direction because I know growing up for me, like I didn't feel like it was okay to say that I had anxiety or I dealt with depression.

So what would you say to someone who's maybe listening that they're struggling with that or they're just feeling some sort of way and they're not really sure what's going on.

Um, that is it okay for Christians to struggle with that, for Christ followers to, to struggle with those things.

Um, and maybe like where you mentioned earlier, some things in scripture that kind of coincide with those, just a few of how that can help somebody.

Well, medication is a, a challenging topic because not everybody is in agreement, but in the reality of life, I don't think we're in agreement on.

Much of anything.

I mean, whether you call it politics or nutritional tips or diet and certainly medication, um, is even more challenging that when I'm on medication.

And so when you look at prescription medication, they always have this bigger list of side effects.

Then they do the benefits list.

So I'm like, why are there so many side effects?

Uh, when it comes to prescription medication, not just psych psych psychiatric, uh, medications, but even your general physiology medication that, you know, the human body is very complicated.

And so even the latest nutrition theory, they're recognizing that dietary and nutrition, um, uh, practices are very individualized.

Each of us have a unique DNA and we respond to food and medication in different ways.

And so what I've, I'm, what I'm learning about mental health is it's a very personalized and customized journey of wellness.

Just just, and I think it's a reflection of our lives.

All of us have to figure out how our body is designed, how well it responds to food, how well it responds to medication, how long, how well it responds to lifestyles and so on and so on.

So the body is the temple of the Holy spirit.

And by God's design, each of us have unique fingerprints.

I think we have unique plans for health, mental, emotional, physical, and that's hard work.

Um, we would prefer to have a one side fits all a solution when it comes to medication, everything else in health.

But I think we're learning as technology is showing us customization and personalization is not a bad thing.

It's, it's a human thing that we, we, um, we would do well to respect our unique design or unique God given design for taking care of our bodies and minds.

I want to pull the thread on that one.

That that's, you know, there are churches, I'm sure, you know, you probably know better than me.

Um, recovery church is, is down here in Florida where our whole church was developed centered around, um, the, you know, focusing on, on recovery focus.

And, and sometimes, um, you know, I, I say this with experience, sometimes celebrate recovery at a church actually, uh, unintentionally becomes a completely separate thing from the church where it actually is like a, a church in itself for people that are going through recovery.

So is the goal to, to give them an opportunity for exclusion to do their own thing?

Is it, is that appropriate?

Is the, is the goal for unification where, where people are together, whether they have issues or not?

Like what's, what's the, what's the healthy approach as we're looking at this?

Well, I'm going to build on what I just said.

It's a customized approach.

It takes a bit of discerning of the people you have and the leadership to figure out what's going to work best in their current situation.

Uh, so it's a longer, short term versus long.

Yeah.

Short term versus long term, um, short term, meet them, you know, individualized long term, bring them back in, gauge it necessary.

Like what, how, how, how do we learn to discern?

I guess maybe that's a better question to ask.

Well, thanks for asking the question.

I don't have an answer on the spot.

Um, there are training guides and people that are in the coaching.

So I'll, I'll mention one Laura how is in the mental health Christian space providing the kind of coaching and discerning to help people customize their mental health, uh, program and support group strategies.

So there's someone who's spent, she's a trained counselor based in Canada and she does a mental health summit every year in October, uh, specifically to provide those resources and provide that coaching.

So I'm going to hand the baton off to her.

Yeah.

She's awesome.

I've met with her before.

She's really cool.

And she's doing awesome things for mental health ministry, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Yes.

I love that.

So I find it way more helpful to refer to a person than to a program.

Yeah.

I just find a programmatic approaches to be a bit flat.

And when it comes to mental health, we really need that personal touch.

So as I've started just a year and a half ago, something called Christian Asian mental health, because I feel called to really zone in on that niche.

So there's mental health generically, which is huge affects 20% of American population.

And then the Christian mental health space is still nascent.

I mean, it's still underdeveloped.

There's huge opportunities.

And we could get into that perhaps on a future episode, but there's a conference coming up end of September in Cleveland.

That will be the first national church and mental health conference that's going to continue on an annual basis, Lord willing.

I'll start by Steve Gershevik of Key Ministry.

We'll add a link in the show notes.

And then I'm zoning in on Asian American churches because every Asian American church needs a mental health ministry.

And the reason I feel compelled to serve that demographic is if we don't focus on the unique needs of particular groups of people, Asian Americans are going to be left out if you just go generic.

And part of the thinking behind that is Asian Americans are the least likely to seek mental health treatment.

Three times less likely to seek professional help compared to white counterparts.

And we have the high suicide rates in several demographics, young adults and older people.

And so the unique needs we have culturally in our shame based culture is just really dire.

I think that's really important for anyone who's doing ministry in any way, like looking at your demographic of who you're reaching and they're going to have different things that they're struggling with.

Like you said, the shame culture, they're going to have different things.

So it's really being able to focus in on those specific ones are going to help so many more people and the people you're trying to reach.

Yeah.

And I mentioned Christian Asian mythology.

I forgot my punchline.

I was going to say, the way I want to approach the churches, and I'm happy to hear, Jeff, during our warm up on this episode, you were saying you're working with the Chinese church there where you are.

I want to provide concierge service to the churches in developing their mental health ministry.

I don't want to just throw them to a website or on-demand training program.

Though I will do that as a kickstart of just being familiar with content.

But that personal touch, and my theory on mental health, it's not just a chemical issue, it's a disconnection relationally that is affecting our mental health.

So we're not just disconnected because of chemical imbalance.

We're disconnected relationally.

And technology is isolating us.

It doesn't have to.

But if we use technology properly, as you do here at TCD, you're bringing that relational connection, which helps our mental health and emotional relationship.

And spirituality and becoming whole, really, we're becoming whole again when we connect as humans to humans.

Is a mental health ministry, is that just coaching of mental health to get all ministries to understand better?

Is there a mental health pastor?

Is it volunteer-driven?

Like, what would a typical church mental health ministry look like?

Excellent question.

And I'm going to lean back on my answer.

It needs to be a personalized and customized approach.

The reason we have so many different kinds of churches, each of them have a unique DNA and fingerprint.

In the same way, each church needs to have a unique approach to mental health ministry.

Now, there are some things that go common across the board.

So, I have a very lean startup prototype framework model for mental health ministry.

And they start with the letter S, because pastors like to alliterate.

And pastors have to be at the gatekeeper, they're the shepherd, so they need to understand what mental health ministry is in their church before they can deploy and mobilize their volunteers to run the mental health ministry.

So, five S's.

Okay, we have ten minutes.

First, they need to talk about mental health in their sermons.

To quote the great Dr. Ed Stetzer, "Sermons stop stigma."

And we need to be grounded in God's truth, who guides us into all truth for life and wellness.

So, sermons.

Second, stories.

Stories of lived experience.

People experiencing mental health challenges, but yet we have support and comfort through the scripture.

So, sermons, stories.

Third, seminars.

So, bring in the clinicians and therapists from your local community to provide practical skills and understanding for how we deal with our challenges holistically,

whether that's depression, anxiety.

Those are the first two I would deal with because that's the most common things we all deal with.

And then you can touch on grief, suffering, burnout.

Those are common things of our human experience.

And then you can get into more specifics like DSM-5 diagnoses, like clinical depression or anxiety disorder, bipolar or schizophrenia or special needs.

So, that's sermons, stories, seminars, support groups.

I would refer people to the Living Grace curriculum.

I've got five or six on my website that are Christian and mental health.

There's not too many.

Fresh Hope is another popular one.

So, support groups provide the care and support that complements what therapists and medication provide for the treatment.

People don't need treatment just once a week or once a month.

They need it every week.

So, support groups provide that community.

And then fifth S is Sabbath.

God modeled it.

It's in the Ten Commandments.

And you and I know churches are overworked.

So, we need a healthy rhythm of rest so that we work from rest, not resting from work.

Sermon, stories.

That's all that, Jeff.

I see you taking notes.

I'm writing it down right now on my whiteboard desk.

So, sermon, stories, seminars, support groups, and Sabbath.

That's five S's.

You got it.

What an appropriate ending here.

You got your Rick Warren would be proud.

You got your five points.

They all align.

So, so good with that.

Man, this is good.

I'm even trying to think like what's a good question to wrap up or land on.

Do you want to take any from the audience?

Sure.

I would be open to that.

How often do they need to.

Flat cap says he's done Thresh Hope.

Yeah.

Great.

How often do then, how do they need to flat cap?

I'm not understanding that.

Zach Valley, I'd love to hear about one of the practices DJ recommends.

Maybe one of the basic entry level ones that nurtures mental, emotional flourishing.

Hmm.

Here's the most basic ones.

Learning how to breathe deeply.

Hmm.

So Kay Warren's focus in mental health ministry is something called breathe.

So she has these some zoom seminars on breathe called breathe.

And she's focusing just as you mentioned at the top of the hour that I've really zoned in on a niche of a niche when it comes to Christian mental health.

And one of the most biological, critical, physical, emotional, mental thing that we can do well for ourselves is learning how to breathe well.

So when we learn to breathe deeply, rhythmically, it literally biologically resets our brains.

Mm hmm.

So we're having a panic attack or anxiety, depression.

Walking and breathing resets our body physically, and that helps reset our mind and emotions.

So that's something I've had to learn very basic, very practical.

Within 60 seconds, 90 seconds, you'll feel different.

So breathe.

Yeah, we've got box method or whatever method.

Breathing.

We've got Megan.

No, we've got, um, Mindy Caliguire coming on, um, five or six, I think.

And, uh, she's with soulcare.com.

And, uh, she's like, it's talking about rest and just from personal experience.

She's done, um, so much for me on that space and, in, in helping me, uh, restore through that.

And yeah, Zach's like, yeah, I do, do love that.

Um, yeah, it's so good as, as, as we're landing the plane here.

Um, let's get practical.

We've, we've got, we're, we're mental health savvy.

Uh, maybe someone within our organization or someone in leadership is, is not.

We're currently, you know, in difficult situations.

Um, you know, maybe a physical church pastor.

That's not, uh, that's not understanding of, of some of this.

How do we, um, start those conversations?

How do we help others maybe try to battle through some of the stigmas and misunderstandings that they have from a practical standpoint?

Well, here's as practical as I can make it.

Pastors already know that their congregation and their community is struggling with mental health reality.

Because pastors are often the first person that someone struggling with life is going to, or help.

And their struggles are not just with getting the bills paid or relational conflict in marriage.

They're experiencing suffering through depression, anxiety.

So pastors already know that pastors are often overworked and they don't know what to do.

They weren't trained in seminary or, um, counseling and psychology.

They're trained in dead languages like Hebrew and Greek.

But, um, so, so they, they know they need help, but they don't know who to go to or who to trust.

And sometimes just go into a counselor.

Oh, they might just be in it for the business.

No, we're trying to help people.

And so to speak to the pastors, um, is critical.

And to show them the basic needs and the resources that are available.

So I would refer to something called the sanctuary course.

It's a free online video series, eight weeks with discussion guides, with stories, with science, and with scripture.

Hey, those are all S's too.

And it's a free course, uh, developed in, uh, England and Canada.

And so, um, that would be a great discussion starter to get your church leaders onto the same page about the need for mental health and what the church can do.

So rather than just sending this podcast, which is also a easy thing to do, the sanctuary course is a practical way to engage that conversation,

to recognize the church's role in being a sanctuary, a place of care, support, and comfort,

when it comes to not just suffering in general, but mental health specifically.

So bringing your people together, recognizing that we're the hands and feet of Christ.

We care for people.

It's our call to care for people.

Uh, Jesus cares about our wellness.

And then the pastor can be a part of moving from pastoral care instead of them carrying the burden of pastoring the people by themselves.

Move from pastoral care to congregational care.

That's the move.

That's the move.

And then you've activated the lay people to care for your church and your community and everybody will be healthier for it.

Awesome.

DJ man, you have kicked off this season, um, incredibly, and I'm excited to see, uh, where we're going with all this.

The chat has, has been blowing up with different research resources, talking about, uh, Jay sharing light university.

And we're going to talk more about that later.

Megan's got some experience with light and, um, yeah, we need to train our chat bots and mental health.

That's, that's, that's fun.

That's a fun conversation for a different day.

Um, but, uh, DJ, thank you very much for, for jumping on here.

Uh, but we're going to, we're going to land the plane.

Megan.

Thanks for joining us as well.

And, and being a champion in this area and helping out with the church, digital podcast season nine, digital and mental health.

Uh, but we're going to, we're going to land a plane for this one, uh, for a DJ for Megan.

This is Jeff with the church digital.

Thanks for joining on the podcast.

We'll see you next time on the show.

Y'all have a good one.