EP314 - Online Ministry, Vulnerability and Punk Rock Jesus with Ian Simkins

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Welcome in to the Church Digital Podcast.

This is episode 314, and I obviously am not the man, the myth, the legend, Jeff.

You know him and you love him.

He is actually off in Korea doing things with the Lausanne movement,

and it's been totally awesome and wonderful and exciting.

But he asked me and my pal Ashley from The Hybrid Disciple to take over a couple of these episodes

and really bring you kind of the other side of what we've been working on in TCD.

And man, we have an incredible episode for you today.

Now, if you've never listened to The Hybrid Disciple,

what we are is essentially a show that is all about bridging the gap between digital and physical discipleship.

I think a lot of the times when we start talking about the digital environment,

we lose the forest for the trees a little bit and forget that there is an actual incarnational,

in-person thing that happens when we get face-to-face with each other.

But at the same time, there's also this digital component that we need to remember

is highly influential in our lives right now.

And so what we're doing with The Hybrid Disciple is we're trying to bridge that gap.

And Ashley, if you've never met Ashley Lagos, she is amazing, an amazing teacher,

an amazing preacher, an amazing influencer on TikTok and also on Instagram.

But she's also one of the founders of 12 Church Online.

Man, all her stuff is going to be located in the show notes or the doodly-doos below me.

And if you're listening to this on audio, it's going to be in the actual show notes of this.

Go check her out.

Go check everything out that she does because I cannot begin to tell you how influential she has been

in my life and in my discipleship.

So Ashley, if you are listening, which I know you are, thank you so much.

And this is kind of a resurrection of Hybrid Disciple.

We have taken a little bit of an extended break.

We've both had some life change experience things happening.

And we're in talks, or we were in talks, and hopefully we'll be back into doing season three.

But this episode you're going to hear is actually our interview with Ian Simpkins.

Now, we're going to talk about Ian in just a few minutes, actually, in the episode.

But Ian is, during this episode, you're going to hear me kind of fangirling all over Ian.

And that is because I have been following this dude on Instagram for, I don't know, three or four years.

And he has the best way of being a pastoral heart in the midst of extremely, extremely trying circumstances.

And he's also got this real sort of gentle way of putting everything.

He's one of those pastors that you can just imagine lives an unhurried lifestyle, almost that Jesus called us to.

And I'm thrilled that we got the chance to interview him.

Now, this is, again, a couple of months old.

But the fact that he was able to spend an hour with us was just so precious.

And I was kind of going back through this episode before I recorded this interview

and just remembered how awesome it was to talk to him.

So, Ian, as well, thank you.

I know you're listening to this.

Thank you again for this episode.

I'd love to connect with you again on season three.

That's my little plug there.

I'll be reaching out to your brother.

But, hey, enough about all of that.

I'd love for you to get into this episode, episode 314,

with myself, Ashley Lagos, and Ian Simpkins.

Welcome back to The Hybrid Disciple.

I'm Andy.

I'm one of the hosts here.

We're going to be joined by Ashley in just a short second.

And, man, do we have a doozy to kick off really what is our first real episode of season two.

Yeah, I know we did an intro last week and all those fun things.

But this, this is the start of season two.

And, man, we, we get off to a flyer, as the English like to say.

We, we kick this one off with a bang.

This is our good friend Ian Simpkins.

Now, if you know nothing about Ian, I, Ashley kind of gives this advice a little bit,

like, right as soon as she starts introing him.

But you need to pause this podcast or pause this YouTube video.

You need to go to his social media stuff,

which will be in the description of this video or in the show notes or whatever.

Go to his socials and just click follow.

Trust me, it is going to be the best follow that you have on any social media platform.

Ian is a humble dude.

He's funny.

He's irreverent when he needs to be irreverent.

He's amazingly disciple-oriented.

And most importantly, he loves Jesus fiercely.

And he's showing that in all of his social media presences and all of his posts.

And the thing that we get into in this conversation is really where

digital and physical branch into something like social media in particular.

And this is something that both Ashley and I are super, super passionate about.

So you don't need to hear me talking anymore.

Let's get to the interview with Ian Simpkins right now.

Well, we were just remarking on our names here on The Hybrid Disciples.

Now, a little peel back behind the curtain.

We use a program called Riverside.

We love Riverside.

Riverside is kind of one of those remote recording things.

And Ashley and I have been doing Riverside for, I feel like, six years now.

It's probably been a year or so.

And it's kind of like Zoom where you have to title yourself.

You have to name.

So I'm Andy.

And that's Ashley.

And our special guest today, we're going to let him introduce himself with his Christian

name, but his online name right now that I see is Admiral Soggy Bottoms.

So without further ado, let me welcome Admiral Soggy Bottoms to the program.

Admiral, yes.

How long have you been in the service and where did you get your rank from?

Boy, best, best intro I've ever experienced.

My goodness.

You're welcome.

No, we have Ian Simpkins is joining us today on The Hybrid Disciple.

Now, Ashley, if you could kind of walk me through where you found out about Ian and then how you

recommended him to me.

Yeah, I, so, you know, I am constantly as a content creator in the Christian space, the

algorithm puts people in front of me and one of the people that popped up was Ian.

And if you do not follow him, first off, you must stop what you're doing, pause this, get

out of this completely, go directly to Instagram and find him.

Because I am a very sharpshooter, as you all are learning as you listen to the podcast.

I, I like things to be very direct.

I don't want a bunch of fluff.

I just want you to tell me whatever it is that you want me to learn or know.

And, and great.

And so the, I don't remember what the very first Instagram post of yours that I saw, Ian,

but I, it was like a one-liner and I was like, screw this guy.

He's not going to even pay any attention to this.

And I say that with absolute honor and respect because one of my mentors that I, that I follow

very closely since I was 18, 19 years old, he has always said that if you sit in a church

consistently week after week and you are never offended, you are never, you never feel uncomfortable.

You never feel that twinge of like, ugh, then you are in the wrong church because the person,

anyone that is speaking to you from a spiritual perspective should have things that they say

that kind of make you like twinge just a little bit.

And not in, not because they're overtly off.

Now, I mean, I have sat in churches before where somebody will say something.

I'm like, oh, that is not biblical.

That is like, that's like, that is clearly not theologically sound.

But to be able, but the stuff that you put out consistently challenges me in the best possible

way.

And, and it's done in such a direct non, like no thrills, like his content guys, if you haven't

seen it, it's like single line white text on a black screen.

And it's beautiful, but every single post, there's something there that just, that makes

me pause and think and reflect.

And then I am a TikTok person.

So I, I will have on more than one occasion will be like, I read this thing on his page

and I always try to tag you, but like your TikTok, what's up with TikTok, man?

Like, even if you, even if you just repurpose it, but we can go into that later.

But like, I've tagged multiple times on TikTok, um, just because I'm like this, I really wish

this was my thought.

It's not my thought.

It's my thought.

But it's so good.

And it's not on TikTok that I'm going to repurpose it and credit him.

But anyway, I was telling them whenever I hit up Ian to ask him if he'd be on the hybrid

disciple.

And he responded that he would.

I was so excited about through my phone.

I was like having a total content creator, like fangirl moment.

So, um, yes, that's the summation of that.

Am I blushing?

I feel like I'm blushing.

So I'm going to, I'll color correct.

I'll color correct this edit just a little bit, uh, to make sure that there's no red.

Uh, so Ian, first off, thanks.

Uh, after that glowing compliment, uh, sandwich that you just got there.

Um, thanks so much for joining us here.

And like, I guess like, let's start off a little bit first off, what is the philosophy

behind your ministry?

And give us a little background on how you actually got to what you're doing right now.

Yeah.

Even asking about the philosophy is probably giving me more credit than you should.

I, I honestly feel like I, I fell backwards into all of it.

And that's the, that's the honest to God truth.

I, uh, it was June, 2020.

It was, uh, it was during George Floyd and everyone was doing these, uh, these black boxes.

Right.

And I, no one knew which way it was up.

Everyone's trying to figure it out.

Everyone had kind of their entrenched positions and they're sort of like tribal certainties,

which, you know, hasn't gone away.

I didn't really know what to do.

I had a radio show at the time.

And so I said to my co-host, I said, I think you need to spend the next week or two doing

a whole lot more listening than talking.

And so we had just a bunch of, uh, uh, men and women of color in our city to kind of

help us, um, understand some of what was going on that I, I knew just as a, as a, as a white

male pastor, there's probably all sorts of subtexts and background that I just wasn't going to

get.

So I just did a lot of listening and I felt really convicted.

I was like, I think, I don't think the world needs my words right now.

And it was after a couple of weeks of these like really honest, uh, candid, beautiful,

sometimes heart wrenching conversations.

I distilled some of that down to a sentence or two.

And I have a real, uh, allergy to just adding to the noise.

I think I grew up in a really loud Irish Catholic family, you know, where everyone's kind of talking

over each other.

Like, I, I feel like I got those words out of the way early on and I just don't feel this

like it's like, Oh, I should also be contributing.

So I was okay with just sort of sitting silently for a couple of weeks and had one or two thoughts.

So I was like, ah, this was really helpful to me.

Maybe this will be helpful to someone else.

And I'm like, so design impaired and technologically impaired.

I just opened, I just opened up Apple notes and typed a thought.

And I was like, Oh, we'll see if this is helpful.

And was so blown away, not only just by people's kindness, but the, the amount of people that are

like, that is a very helpful way to think this through, or that has given me language to a

thing that I've been feeling, but didn't know how to articulate.

Um, please keep going like that.

I remember that being like really surprising because I had no intentions, which is, it's

funny now because you know, years later people will ask me questions like, Hey, do you mind

if I steal your aesthetic?

And I'm like, you're going to have to ask Steve jobs.

Cause it's just the notes app on my iPhone.

I don't like, I don't own the aesthetic.

Like I, it's purely out of laziness or a lack of knowledge or creativity.

And people have told me like, well, the black square white text actually kind of stops you

in the doom scroll with everything else kind of popping and bouncing and screaming and whatever.

Um, but it really was birthed out of a, I don't think I have the bandwidth to be going

into Canva and trying to figure something out.

And I'm, I knew that I would sink more time than would be helpful.

So the notes, they're just like a reflection of like what I'm actually processing with

real people.

You know, I'm a pastor and practitioner first.

So it's like, it's either like, uh, I'm working on a sermon and want to see if this idea lands

or it's following a sermon and something resonated that I wasn't anticipating.

So I tried to distill it down.

So they're, they're all birthed out of like a very real place with real people in real

time.

And that's, that's kind of what's, what's kept me going, I think.

So what are you doing right now?

You said you're a pastor.

Like what is your, what's your nine to five right now?

Yeah.

My nine to five is a pastor at a really beautiful church just south of Nashville.

And, um, we have a, a co-lead pastor model that we're sort of experimenting with here.

So I'm a lead pastor of teaching.

And then we also have a lead pastor of strategy and, uh, and we have a lead team and there's

a whole lot of other layers to that, that I'm sure, uh, I could put all of your listeners

to sleep talking about, but, um, that's, that's sort of the dynamic that we, and I would,

you know, we moved down from Chicago.

So I still feel pretty new to the South and the Bible belt and Nashville.

And so in any kind of communications role, you're kind of learning the landmines as you

step on them.

You're like, ah, got it.

I can't quote him just yet.

Got it.

Or whatever, you know?

And, but by and large, this, the community has just been so gracious, uh, not only to

me, but to my family.

And it's just been a blast getting to know this, uh, this new context with my, with my

wife and kids.

I think one of the things that intrigues me because I comment often in your, you know,

on your things, but also I spend a lot of time reading through them.

Um, and, um, one of the things that I noticed consistently is you have the ability in such

a short amount of time to really like get people to connect with you.

And whenever we're speaking specifically about the hybrid nature between online presence within

a ministry or within a body of church body or whatever, and then brick and mortar.

Um, one of the things that I hear over and over, and I have pastors comment to me because

12, you know, all of our content is so short.

People are like, how do you do that?

Like, how do you get people to be engaged and like bought in just so quickly to where

they're really, um, they're genuinely engaged and they're genuinely processing.

So from that perspective, what would you say that your thoughts are whenever it comes

to, you know, ministries across the country or people who are wanting to step into the digital

space, but they're like, I don't really understand how I'm supposed to actually put anything out

that's meaningful.

That is so short because we live in such a verbose society, really, you know?

Gosh, first off, that is very kind.

Thank you.

I, uh, uh, I'll start with the irreverent and then hopefully move towards something that's

more helpful.

I'm really easily bored.

Like I'm very easily distracted.

So like the short and concise is honestly almost more for me.

Like I had a mentor and he was, he was talking about preaching, but this is translated, uh,

years ago.

He had asked me about an upcoming sermon.

He's like, Hey, what are you preaching on this Sunday?

And I like rift for 20 minutes and rabbit trailed.

And he's like, you are not done.

And he said, until you can describe your sermon in one sentence to a 10 year old, you're not

done writing it yet.

And for whatever reason, he's like, it's not just that it's concise.

It needs to also be simple.

And I've, I've held that as a rubric for 20 years now.

We're like, Oh, it's a little bit about this.

And we're also talking about a theology of that.

And he's like, I don't think you actually know what the sermon's about yet.

He forced in me a discipline early on to, can you actually distill this down to where

you actually know what you're talking about?

So a lot of it came from me, I'm prone to distraction and rabbit trailing and trying

to fit way more into a shorter amount of time than I probably should.

That's always been my MO.

The other piece though, that I've, I've learned with online, you guys can speak to this a thousand

times more intelligently than I can.

When you're meeting with someone in person, there's all these nonverbal cues.

And I'm like reading that your brow is furrowed or that you're hunched over.

There's all these data points, even if they're like subconscious that are tempering how I talk

to you and how we connect and how we kind of are building equity.

And if it's just white text, black square, you don't really have any of that.

So you have to work extra hard at meaningful vulnerability and humanity.

And I try very hard to, I'm not, I'm not ever the hero in any of the stories that I tell

and trying to go honestly a little beyond the breaker of my comfort level.

Like here's a really embarrassing thing that I did, but this is how I feel like God taught

me in this moment.

Or here's where even sometimes it's a one or two sentence thing somewhere in the slide deck

where you're like, Hey, just so you know, I've been there too.

Like, I think that the, the temptation to appear as an expert on digital platforms, like, let

me bestow upon you this conclusion that I've drawn as someone who's arrived.

I want to make sure that's painfully clear, even if they disagree with me to know that

like, Oh, Ian is recognizing he hasn't fully arrived.

He's in process and he's, he's learning this in real time with us, but he's not like, Hey,

I'm from, I'm in this ivory tower.

Let me bestow upon you these 10 slides on Instagram.

I, I, uh, I'm always trying to actively kind of work against that and make sure that my humanity

and brokenness comes through without, without being totally self-deprecating.

Cause that can also be, you can, the pendulum can swing too far the other way, but trying

to hold that, hold that intention has been, been a helpful discipline for me.

You're the pastor at the bridge church, the bridge church.

Uh, I'm yeah.

And, uh, I'm, I was perusing your, so the, the, the digital pastor in me always goes directly

to the online portion of any church.

I don't care about the rest of it.

I just, whatever.

To me, like church websites are a dime a dozen, unfortunately.

Uh, two things struck me about your website that when I was doing a little bit of research,

number one, I love your staff page.

Uh, and I know that's probably a quirk that you guys don't get to hear a lot.

And whoever your designer is, if you have a creative team or whomever, a plus on the fact

that your staff page actually has animated gifts of people like doing funny things.

I think you're playing like rock them, sock them robots and like, you know, that's all

good stuff.

Um, but the second thing I always gravitate towards is the online area.

Uh, what is the bridge's philosophy of digital church right now as it sits?

Boy, that is, that's a super real time question.

We're, we're in the midst of figuring that out.

You know, when I moved here, uh, I think that was right around the same time that life

church was talking about going meta.

And obviously during COVID everyone was having, uh, video venue conversations.

Is this a church?

Is this a ministry?

Um, we, we just made some strategic sort of camera upgrades that we're trying to figure

out like, okay, to what degree is, uh, we thinking about in the room versus online.

We just launched our first ever, uh, all online small group.

And even, and even that there was some disagreement about, is that a true small group?

Is that, uh, will that be the best experience or the best foot forward?

Do we want to make that available?

So truly honestly, we, we are kind of in the throes of all of that.

For me, uh, I think about online as I just talked about this last week, actually, we're

in the series on the table and how Jesus specifically uses the table and meals.

And it's just, it's blowing my mind how central it is and how long it's taking me to see this.

But I also talk about online as like an extension of our table and how we actually are like setting

the table for people for whatever reason, uh, whether they're not local or they've been

hurt by churches or they physically can't get out.

How do we see that as a viable extension of the church, uh, and as a ministry to serve

those.

And that's really tricky because my natural bent in preaching is not to look at the camera

uh, it's really not intuitive for me to speak to our online audience are the people that

we have hosting online are such beautiful souls and they're dialed in and they're thinking

about questions and ways to phrase things.

And, and honestly, one of the things that has kind of bumped this up for me, this isn't

really what you asked, but I think it's helpful.

Uh, we sort of accidentally stumbled into a prison ministry in the last year.

Some guy that just started attending here, who's the local chaplain started showing our

services and then, uh, that service got filled.

So we added a second and then that got filled.

So we added a third and that got filled.

So we added a fourth and he's having five services at our local prison and we didn't

even know about it.

We didn't put any money toward it.

Literally the guy told me as he was leaving on a Sunday and then I started getting letters

from, from prisoners, like with just the most remarkable.

So now I'm like thinking about, oh, this isn't just someone logging in online because they're

on vacation this week.

Like this is, this is a ministry to people 10 miles down the road from us.

They're in a very different circumstance.

So it has really rattled a lot of my categories, to be honest, and how we think about the digital

and video space.

And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say we fully landed the plane there yet.

I, so I'm a church kid, like Southern Baptist, um, and was in church like five, if not seven

days a week, but for sure five, um, physically in church.

And, and so, but I professionally, I'm a digital marketing analyst and strategist and content

creator.

And so like I eat, sleep and breathe the digital space.

And like, I have older kids, I have a 20 year old and an soon to be 18 year old.

And so I have, I very much live online, right?

Like so much of what I do is online and so many of the relationships that I've built is online.

And so I was actually on staff at a brick and mortar church whenever the idea to have a digital

church, like that, that God presented that to me and Andy knows, and our audience, a lot

of them will know.

I was like, I'm not doing that.

Like, that is not what I'm doing.

Like, in fact, why do I have zero desire to do that?

And so I think you should just talk to someone else because I'm busy.

I'm not going to do it.

Um, and then, you know, I talked to my dad, who's like the most level headed person knows

my temperament really well.

He's like, I think you should pray about it.

And I'm not praying about it either.

Like, I'm not doing that.

Um, and then I prayed about it and now it's almost three years old.

So, you know, like God, God always gets you there eventually.

But through that process, I think that you're absolutely right.

A lot of people have a disconnect between understanding that relationships that people build online and

the necessity that people have to need, like to have access to online ministry and to online

spiritual food is absolutely real.

And it's imperative because especially if you step into Gen Z, so many relationships, my daughter's

boyfriend, who she's been with now for four years, they met in an Instagram DMs.

Like their relationship was built online first.

Um, and I think that we, the church has a tendency to be reactive and not proactive.

And we get so tied to like these ideologies that are rooted in the, well, this is just what

we do.

This is what we've always done that we end up missing an entire section of humanity because

we're just married to a concept that worked really well at one time, still works presently,

but definitely needs to shift in order to be relevant.

Um, and we, earlier we, last week we interviewed a young lady who, um, named Jay, who is a Gen

Z, you know, she's in multimedia communications, works with Univision.

And one of the things that she said in response to some, some data that we got from Barna is

just the mass exodus of young people from the church, we have to recognize that traditional

brick and mortar may not be working, but if you have a way to get them.

So for instance, like I, this is the first time you and I have ever had a conversation,

you know, outside DMs to ask you to come on, but I feel like because of your content, I feel

connected to you.

Like I read your content all the time.

Um, if somebody were to say something like snarky in your comments, I would probably be

like, like, I would have to let you just take over and not let me clap back.

Cause I, the clap back queen lives inside of me.

Um, but I don't know you, but I feel enough of a connection to you that if somebody were

to come at you sideways, then the not saved version of me might step into your comments

and I would have to rein it in because I would feel the need to like protect you or go to

bat for you.

That's a very real connection for me.

And, and I have that with, with a myriad of people.

And so with that in mind, whenever you're talking about it being an extension of the table,

what are your thoughts whenever it comes to just people and the way we connect and how do

we, with maturity and, and grace essentially not only encourage relationship building between

churches and people never potentially come inside of the church.

Um, and then also people that they just wouldn't usually have access to, for instance, like the

prisoners that you're.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, um, that's such a good question, probably to a fault, I think through a formation lens

first.

So for me, and, and I've been getting this question, you know, for a long time, people

will ask us, is social media good or bad?

And I would say, I don't actually think it's good or bad, but it's not neutral.

And I think the, like, so the example I'll give is like a shovel.

You can use a shovel, uh, to dig wells or to run around beating people over the head with

it, right?

Like that you can do both things, but do either long enough and you're going to end up with

blisters on your hands.

Like it's a tool, whether you're using it for ill or for service, uh, there's a formational

piece to it.

So I'm always trying to like one of the things, one of the kind of principles that we, uh,

we encourage people to in the morning is a simple axiom scripture before screen.

We're all inundated with screens.

I'm not knocking screens.

A lot of us, a lot of my life is on a screen.

Um, a lot of us read our Bible on the screen.

Scripture before screens is a formational practice, sort of a rule of life.

What does it look like for us to ground ourselves in the morning first in God's word in whatever

way they do it?

I mean, I even say it in Sundays, like, Hey, we're going to be in Luke chapter 14.

Luke 14 · chapter mention

You can turn or swipe there right now.

I want people to know, man, if you're reading on your phone, you're welcome here.

This is not a, you need to get off your dusty KJV.

That's the only version that, you know, the Lord likes.

Um, so it is, it is a real tension for me because like, I just read Johan Hari's stolen

focus.

I don't know if you've read this or not.

Um, and, and just a, first off, it's a masterpiece.

Yep.

And a lot of it I already knew, but there was a lot there that I was like, some of this

is more nefarious than I think I realized.

And trying to be mindful and not just dig my, bury my head in the sand, but I was chatting

with another guy on staff.

I also just turned 40 this last year.

And I remember proposing at, uh, the first church I worked at the possibility of online

giving.

And you would have thought I proposed that we sacrifice our firstborn.

Like it was no giving that the Lord honors is physical.

It's writing it.

It was like very convictional.

And now 20 years later, that feels, you know, pass a, I, that's always top of mind for me.

Like, okay, Ian, you're 40 now.

What are the areas that you're tempted to bury a head in the sand and say, this is the only

way that we do church.

And some 21 year old on staff is like, I think we're potentially missing out on a whole demographic

of people by your unwillingness to move.

I feel some of that kind of inner curmudgeon already, you know, like Wendell Berry is one

of my favorite writers and he still writes books on a typewriter.

Like that's, that's, I have a lot of that kind of in me.

And, uh, so it, it, it, a lot of it comes down to trust.

You know, I was talking about our shared model of leadership.

We have to be very, very clear about, uh, what decisions are ultimately mine and what

are the ones that I need to relinquish and say, I don't think I agree with this.

Um, but ultimately we are empowering the people that are thinking that through prayerfully,

not just intellect, but also like spirit sensitivity, um, and actually letting them lead on those

areas.

And so that does sometimes come with a, is that how we want our reels to look?

Like, or is this the right use of our resources or what is an online host versus a in-person

host?

Like those are honestly, secretly don't tell anybody.

I like those conversations because they're like, they're new and inventive and there's

not a lot of tip of the spear.

Like we just, I feel like we get to, it's a sandbox that I like playing in, um, but it

can create a fair amount of conflict, especially if you're, you know, dyed on the wool, this

is how it's always been.

Or I think the other pendulum is innovation just for innovation's sake.

I don't think that's helpful either.

And I think some, some people are so drawn to new that we'll hop on whatever the newest

app or trend thing is and assume that's the next big thing for the church.

And I'm like, I don't know that that's wise either.

So trying to find that, that, that middle space without becoming, yeah, benign or complacent

has been really tricky because ultimately, you know, and I'm the, I'm the, uh, the primary

communicator.

I don't want the voice of the bridge to just mimic me either.

Like we work really, really hard at dismantling any kind of celebrityism or it's about one

person on a stage.

So that, that requires a lot of, uh, open handedness at every level.

And in the digital space that gets really tricky because, you know, there's a, there's

a competence bar and there's a design aesthetic and there's a, well, that doesn't really feel

like us.

And someone might ask, well, what does that mean?

Like, I don't really know.

I can't give you hard.

You know what I mean?

Like I can't give you hard and fast.

Oh, because we don't use this font.

It's like, I don't know how to put it's like it's liking or not liking a certain genre of

music.

And I think, uh, the digital conversation is sort of opening all of that up in a way that's

very exciting, but can also feel very, uh, very wide.

It can feel very expansive.

There's a, there's a thing that happens when you start to put the quote unquote digital label

on, uh, especially in the church world, something that I've noticed in the last, really since

COVID, uh, what, what started and then just go with me on this analogy real quick.

And then tell me I'm, tell me I'm stupid.

Uh, about 20 years ago, uh, maybe 25 years ago, a band called DC talk released an album

called Jesus free.

Right.

Yes, sir.

Like, yes, sir.

And like, and in my head, in my like teenage head, I was rebelling from church, but I had

like, like this girl.

And so I started going to church because of this girl.

And then I kind of went through a path of like addiction and cocaine and drugs and all

those other things.

But anytime I would hear the word Christian attached to music, I thought DC talks Jesus

freak.

And then, you know, the wheel started spinning and Christian music became Matthew West and

it became Chris Tomlin and became Stephen Curtis Chapman.

And it was, it was the thing.

And so 25, 30 years later, you think Christian music and you automatically have a style in your

head for better or for worse.

Uh, and I, I did a lot of ministry in the Atlanta area.

That's where my wife's from.

She was born and raised Atlanta, Georgia.

Uh, you talk about Bible belt, like you're Tennessee, Tennessee to Atlanta is like essentially

like the buckle of the Bible belt.

Um, and, and so there was, there was this hard and fast rule of like, well, no, it's

Sunday.

So we listened to Christian music.

Not, not for me, from my, let's say my in-laws, uh, we listen to Christian music and we do

Christian things on Sunday.

And this is what we do.

And there's been, and now that I'm in Tampa, uh, Tampa surprisingly is the second most de-churched

city in the nation behind Portland.

Which you would never think of that.

Um, but according to like Barna research back in the 2020 and 2021, the most de-churched,

and so Sunday is not that.

And the, the translation in my head, at least in the past, like three or four years is you

attach Christian or church to digital.

And it's something that has to feel and look and sound and taste and all, you know, it has

to have that flavor, you know?

And one of the things I really like about what you guys are doing, uh, especially your church,

but you in particular is you're not allowing that flavor to be in your posting.

And I, I, you know, I, I know you said you stumbled into that, but do you have a revolutionary

bone in your body?

Do you have a confrontational bone?

Like, is that your Enneagram number?

Like you want to fight things all the time?

Like, is that, is that how it is?

Or is it one of those things?

Like you really felt the Lord leading you to do something?

Because I do believe you are discipling and influencing people.

I told you the story off camera, but like you are discipling and influencing me from afar.

And so I, I guess that's my big question is, is, is that part of your personality or is that

literally something that just kind of has happened?

Gosh, what a question, man.

I, this is a whole other part of my story that maybe isn't totally relevant, but, uh,

let me go there.

So I, I, as a teenager discovered drums and punk music in particular.

Let's go.

And after I was, uh, I was pulled out of public school and I was, you know, I was getting

a lot of fights and stuff.

I had, I had a lot of anger issues.

Uh, music and particularly punk music and the punk community kind of became my people.

And to the point where I thought I'm going to, I'm going to study music.

I'm going to move to California, learn to surf and then live out my days.

That's, that's really where I thought I was going to go.

I'm going to be part of no effects.

I'm going to be part of strung out.

Yeah.

Oh, you're speaking my language.

I know I liked you.

Yeah.

Those are my bands.

Those are the bands that I grew up playing and emulating.

Yes.

And, and people, um, who, who didn't, it is hard to understand because I

think it is the punk ethos, at least from my experience is, is more than just a middle finger

to establishment.

That was part of it.

And that was maybe the most outspoken part of it.

But there was sort of this like challenge, uh, upset upside down.

So when I really started to fall in love with Jesus, uh, there was so many things that were

like lightning bolts for me.

I was like, this is a pretty punk rock thing for Jesus to say.

I'd never heard it said that way because I was hearing it and it's like really like stuffy

church tone.

And I even, I sometimes accidentally say it in sermons.

I said it last Sunday, this thing that Jesus did.

And I was like, y'all, I don't think we realize how punk rock this is.

That to me is, it probably means something different than the average listener.

But, uh, that's part of why, and I got to give credit to my parents, man.

They, I went to church, not because I wanted to, but because my dad was big and scary and

said, you're going.

So I never had this like huge, like disdain for the church.

I just didn't really see the point.

So I went and I was like, this is fine.

I don't hate it.

I don't love it.

It's, it's benign, but I just, there was no, I don't know.

It was kind of like, as soon as I don't have to, I'm not going to.

That was sort of my, my understanding.

So the fact that I'm in ministry is hilarious.

Um, any of us on the screen are in ministry.

But the thing that I really, really appreciate more and more every year is that the way that

my parents homeschooled us, I think contributed to a lot of that punk rock.

They were like, listen, uh, this is how you think critically.

This is how you push back, but with respect, this is how you think for yourself.

This is how, like, I didn't realize how unique those things were to learn at 12, 13, 14 that

have kind of shaped the way that I am.

And, uh, so I bring that into preaching.

So we did, you know, a series on mental health.

We just went there and we did a series, a whole series on doubt.

And then, you know, people will tell us like, I've never heard a series on doubt.

Thank you for going there because that's my lived experience.

It's not us trying to be disruptive or edgy.

It's just sort of like, these are the things that the people I care most about are wrestling

with.

And it feels like the satisfaction with pithy truisms is just no longer satisfying.

People are like seeing through the veneer.

So maybe it's time to actually lean into it a little bit more.

And, um, and I think some of what we could diagnose this if you want to, but I had a

buddy years ago, he made this comment to me, not a Christian.

He said, you Christians treat online like it's Vegas.

Like what happens here stays here.

And the amount of stuff that I've seen people, I'll like, I know that they're in church on

Sunday.

And then I look at how they post on Monday.

And as an outsider, as an atheist, they're like, that doesn't seem to correlate at all.

I had enough friends from these other kinds of circles and spheres make those observations

that like deeply convicted me.

Like, oh, they're paying attention to, wow, you say this about your Jesus.

And then I watched the way I saw you in the comment section.

That seems so disintegrated.

That's really what it came down to me for me was, okay, it's not me.

It's not about me being raw or vulnerable or even edgy.

It's a, it's about authenticity.

And the authentic Ian is that sometimes he reads verses and wonders to himself, what am I supposed

to do with this?

Turns out when you send me stuff like that, 80% of the room goes, yeah, me too.

Like, that's also how I feel.

And it's, it's been such a beautiful, that C.S.

Lewis defines friendship that way.

When you share something vulnerable and somebody else, another soul says, me too.

Like, that's such, it's such a gift that I wish I had, I wish I had leaned into earlier

in my ministry because it's like, it's the, it's one of the things that I just enjoy most

about being a pastor now.

With that in mind and, and something that I consistently tell people, you have to be careful

what you say in comments because first off, and I tell my teenagers this whole time, once

you have put it on the internet, it is forever on the internet.

You can't take it down.

You might think you took it down, but you didn't.

Somebody probably screenshot it or saved it or whatever.

So you, so navigating that.

But then in addition to that, that whole authenticity piece, I think as believers, I think sometimes

we miss that because we try really hard online to put up this facade of holiness and perfection.

And first off, people that know us in real life will be on our page and be like, what are

you talking about?

Like that is not even in general.

So you automatically lose, you know, your relevance and your, your voice into their life.

But additionally, I think we are so saturated with production and produced content that people

can immediately identify whenever somebody is being real and authentic and genuine.

And there's, there's just such a huge, um, on TikTok.

So I don't, I was an escort for five years and God radically pulled me out of that.

And I went through these amounts of therapy and major, major deep healing.

And through that process.

I speak at women's conferences and I work with sex trafficking victims and et cetera, et cetera.

But if you listen to me on TikTok, um, I am very transparent about the, about the, um,

sanctification process that has happened from the time that I actually gave my life to Christ to

where I, um, where I am now, even, even the parts where, even now, I mean, with the theology

degree and preaching and running a church and like all of the things, there's still things

that I'm like, I still struggle with this.

Like, this is still something that I desire.

This is still a space that I kind of miss, like that I'll find myself slipping into.

And so whenever we're talking about ministering to people online or discipling people online,

what do you think the line is between being authentic and allowing people to really walk

with you through the process of your day-to-day journey with Christ?

And then, uh, just doing the most and like sharing the most and, and people are, you know,

uh, and people are like, Oh, like, I don't, I don't know if I need that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, uh, we, uh, we were talking about humility on Sunday and, uh, there's a columnist

named David Brooks.

And he said, in a lot of ways, humility has become the new pride.

Like we're braggadocious about how humble we are.

And I think you can also apply vulnerability or transparency into that same category.

And I've, I've heard a number of pastors over the years say things like, Oh, my preaching

is my therapy.

I'm like, Oh, I have seven problems with that.

That is, uh, I think unwise.

I do think that there is like, my wife is such a gift for so many reasons, not the least

of which is she's just not easily impressed.

So like, if I, if I ever feel like, you know, I'm getting a big head or that was kind of

impressive or whatever, but she also like, it's a real gift.

If I'm going to preach on rest and she's in the front row giving me that look, like, really,

you're going to tell them about rest?

Like, weren't you?

Isn't that, you live in the same house.

Like we know, like that is a very, so there's another thing that I think has happened in the

last 15 years, that's sort of like a controlled vulnerability where what we're discovering and

what I've discovered, even with close friends is like, I'm going to give a little bit of

controlled transparency here in a sermon to distract you from like the very real thing

that's going on that I'm actually trying to keep secret.

Like using it as a diversion tactic is, uh, turns out more common than any of us thought.

And I think that's really dangerous, but I, I, I had a mentor and I'll probably bring up

mentors 10 more times, but he, he told me really, really early on, cause I think he saw the

inevitable train wreck that I would be if I didn't make some really important corrections.

He said, Ian, you need to find people who love you, who aren't cowards.

He's like, there's plenty of people that love you, but they're not going to tell you the

hard truth about yourself.

They're not going to tell you you have spinach in your teeth.

And there's plenty of people that will tell you the hard truth about yourself.

But if you don't know that they love you and afford you, you're not going to, you're

not going to receive their correction very well.

He's like, you need to find those people and not a lot of them.

You need a few people kind of ride or die that will keep you accountable to those things.

And I, by God's grace have, have found them in different seasons of the light.

You know, that's, we've moved and some of that has shifted, but having that, uh, is a

helpful barometer for me so that I'm not like just spilling all of my guts inappropriately

on a Sunday or online.

Like I have, and we even here have a teaching team three weeks before any sermon is preached.

You know, we got five to seven people in a room that I deliver a first draft to and they

pick it apart and they're like, this might be a little too vulnerable or like, I actually

don't think you're being vulnerable enough.

And we have men and women, old and young that are kind of helping keep me accountable to

those things so that it isn't like, whoa, that is oversharing to a distracting degree.

Or, Hey, you just read a bunch of words.

I don't feel like we know anything more about you at all though.

Like you didn't actually, and they, they kind of helped correct both extremes and, uh, and

the sermon ended up reflecting much more of the actual collective community of the bridge

rather than just, I went into, you know, on top of a mountain for a week and came back

with this message.

So I try, I just place a lot of trust in people to kind of help me navigate that in preaching.

And with online, I know that my inclination is, is stoicism.

My inclination, my proclivity is never let them see a sweat, pretend like you have an

answer, even if you don't, I know that's my bent.

So anytime that I like am attempting vulnerability, uh, it's, it's, it's so counterintuitive for

me to overshare that, uh, I know that's less likely that, you know, a post will be too vulnerable.

And then, you know, now that I have a family and kids, there's like an additional level of

accountability, like, Hey, maybe don't share this embarrassing story about our son because that,

like you said, that's on the internet forever and he's eventually going to need a job or

whatever that has kind of added a new layer to it.

Um, and my wife has just like a, such a, such a, she's so wise and has such a good sensitivity

on, you know, maybe that one doesn't need to go online.

Maybe that's just for us and being teachable and receptive to that has been, uh, has been

really helpful.

Last question for me.

And then I'm going to kick it back to Ashley.

Um, the, the family dynamic that you talk about, has that, has that helped?

Has it insulated?

Has it, how has it pushed your focus in terms of discipleship and in terms of training?

And where I'm coming from that is again, three kids.

Uh, we talked about this pre-show, but my kids, they weave their social profile-ness into

their lives, uh, seemingly without thinking about it.

They are who they are online and they are who they are in person.

And for us on this call, it's easy for us to get digital beer muscles and go keyboard commando

and just crush somebody because we know that there was a life before that.

And there's an anonymity factor.

And my job as a dad has been to show them a, that again, everything on the internet lasts

forever.

It's not going away.

Even if you hit delete, number one, number two, uh, you will, these, these are formative

relationships that you're having on your profiles online, in your conversations, in your

DMs.

These are formative conversations.

These are things that, that is, that is a person there.

You are to treat them as one of God's children.

How has that kind of affected what you are doing?

Has it affected it?

Has it been negative, positive?

Go for it.

Gosh.

Yeah.

So my, my kids are a different stage.

So they're six, five and 18 months.

So you got a ways, you got a ways, my friend.

I got a little ways, but, but I will say this though.

There's, there's a, a certain beauty to a six year old who hasn't learned social norms

yet that if I'm answering him, but also scrolling on my phone, he's climbed up on a chair and

grabbed my face.

And then like, Papa, look at me.

Like he will, I'm so grateful for that because he has snapped me out of like, that's, and

that's led to some conviction for me.

So like part of, part of like my evening liturgy is that when I pull into the driveway, I just

turn my phone completely off until they go to bed.

That's just my commitment to them because I don't ever want them to hear my voice and

not see the whites of my eyes, you know?

And so that's, that's the beginning stages of like trying to model for them, uh, parameters

and boundaries.

You know, we practice a Sabbath once a week where I turn it off for 24 hours and, and they

now associate Sabbath, not with like this diligent rule following.

You're like, Oh man, we get, we get all of dad and mom.

Like that is, it is all hands on deck and it's fun and we, that's, you know, by design.

So at some level I'm, I'm trying to already model some of that restraint so that they're

not just seeing me doom scroll and walk like a zombie throughout the house.

Um, but there are the things that you're mentioning are stuff that I assume that my kids will always

be more tech savvy than me.

Like when I meet with parents and they're like, Oh, we have this app that like protects.

I'm like, your kid definitely knows the workaround for that.

There's no way they don't.

Like that does give me a little bit of anxiety.

So to your formative question, your formation question, I have to put more stock in what

Eugene Peterson calls a long obedience in the same direction over my capacity to adequately

police your environments.

I know that that's about to go away in a handful of years.

I know it.

So a formation is more crockpot than microwave.

I want to be making small deposits every day so that when they're thinking through, Hey,

how much do I share?

And in what environments and what does digital permanence look like?

And how do I, it's less about me creating a 600 page book of bylaws about what they will

or won't do.

And more thinking about like, Oh man, how do I, how do I, how do I bring the kingdom to

earth in this environment or in this conversation?

Or what does it look?

It's cheesy, but it's like a WWJD.

What would, what would Jesus do if he were me in this context or this environment?

And, uh, I, I'm sure if we were to hop on this call 10 years from now, I'll be like,

I couldn't have even anticipated the technology that they would be battling against or wanting

to integrate or hoping to use.

Like, I can't even fathom it because I'm, I'm already mostly an 85 year old anyway.

And, uh, so I'm very aware of that.

And that used to give me a lot of anxiety and more.

So for me more, it's like, all right, how do we, yeah, how do we, how do we think more

Crock-Pot the microwave and, and model for them as best we can a healthy digital appetite?

We watch documentaries, we watch movies.

We're not Amish, you know, as, as much as I'd like to be every once in a while.

Uh, but I have conviction around when do you do the iPad thing or is a smartwatch a good

idea or, you know what I mean?

Like there's, um, it's, that's how I feel.

But I also, I also like want to go move to the mountains every 30 days or so and just

raise cattle.

So, um, I, I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have for now and recognizing that

there's a lot that I could worry about that may not, may not ever actualize.

If you asked me five years ago, how will you help your kids navigate Facebook?

I'd be like, Oh, I do this.

Now I'm like, they're not going to be on Facebook.

Like that's, I would have spent half a decade freaking out about a platform.

They're not even going to log into, it's going to be something different.

So I have to, I have to trust the, uh, you know, Annie Dillard says how we live our days

is how we live our lives.

I want to live Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday as someone who's thinking about the

kingdom of heaven here and now and modeling that for them so that whatever tools or resources

that are available to them 10 years from now, they're thinking through the same thing.

So last question, cause we're up to the end of time, something that Andy and I talk a lot

about is if Paul specifically had had the internet, what do you think, I guess the status of Christianity

or evangelism or just global impact would have been and what could it be if, if churches were

to stop being fearful of it, stop trying to morph it into traditional methodology and were

to use it as a, as a very strategic tool to basically impact the world with the gospel.

I, uh, I forget where it's at.

I think it's in second John.

He says something, I'm going to butcher it.

Forgive me.

He says something like, I have much more.

I could write to you, but for this, I'd actually rather tell you face-to-face that to me is

such a beautiful tension of he's using the technology of his time.

He's writing, writing letters.

He's not saying letters are of the devil and the Greeks use the letters.

So we're not going to use them at all.

But he also recognizes I could keep writing here, but I actually think what I have left

to say would be better for me to say in person.

That to me is such a beautiful modeling of, yeah, both of these have their place and they

require a, a winsome processing and it's not one size fits all.

You know, so like, so Marshall McLaurin talks about how we, we have a low information to

action ratio and part of his reasoning for that was we're not taking in so much data all

the time from all the world's tragedies, the world over that we're like, I don't know

what to do about any of this.

There, there is a part of me that feels like we've lost some of the locality of, man,

I'm worried about this thing that's happening.

And sometimes that's appropriate, but is thousands of miles away, but I don't even

know my next door neighbor's name.

I wonder if maybe there's a time for a return to some of that.

And yet I think we've seen so many beautiful, like unique connections of people because you

can be so specified in a digital space where, you know, like your communities used to be

very geographically driven and now they're much more interest driven.

You can find a group chat or a page or a club for literally anything.

And I think that is in a really beautiful way, dismantling some of what was maybe entrenched

tribalism, you know, where it's like, no, we're from this area and we're against people

from that area or this denomination or this church versus that church.

I think exposure to that much like traveling or reading, you're like, oh, there's other

ways of seeing the world.

I saw a TED talk years ago.

It was from one of the daughters of the Westboro Baptist Church.

And it is, it is a, such a beautiful TED talk because she talks about technology is actually

the reason that I was able to see another worldview outside of this, like really toxic one that

I was born into.

And she says, listen, I know that everyone's using it this way, but I point to Twitter as

the thing that helped, helped unlock for me and see just how cancerous this context was.

And, uh, she wasn't, doesn't work for a social media firm or anything, wasn't advocating

or selling anything, but it was like, Hey, you might be inclined to knock it.

It kind of saved my life.

And I think we're seeing, I think we will continue to see more of that.

And for, I just keep coming back to the word winsome and wise, you know, Jesus said, uh,

be shrewd as serpents and gentle as a dove.

I think he offers both of those intentionally.

Sometimes personally as Ian, I'm way too gentle and I just love sandwich everything.

And I don't say the hard thing and I need a little more serpent.

Sometimes I'm way too serpent and I'm like suspicious and I'm like picking everything

apart.

And it's like, Hey, I think you need a little more gentleness of a dove here for Jesus to

say those two things.

I think is a helpful rubric for thinking through how do we actually step into whatever this next

era looks like with wisdom, but also ultimately trusting that like God is, God is not caught

off guard by this either.

He's not like, wait, what we have iPhone goggles now.

Oh boy, didn't see that one.

You know what I mean?

Like there's a, I think there's an element of that.

We can also rest and say, okay, uh, we can step more faithfully into this.

Uh, and I think trusting the next gen, I think raising up next generation leaders, um, teaching

them to be, to be pastoral and wise, but also trusting them when the time comes, even though,

you know, old farts like me might not really fully understand it yet.

And, uh, I think it's more of a tension to manage than a problem to solve.

Thank you so much for hopping on with us and, um, this conversation and really truly for what

you knew, because I know I speak for myself, but I think I speak for Andy too.

Whenever you're in ministry, like having the nuggets of just discipleship that you bring

is, is very, very valuable.

And, um, I think that you keep a lot of people like us going on a much grander scale than you

probably realize.

So for that, I honor you.

And I thank you for that.

Cause it's the work that you do is really, really important.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Likewise.

So grateful for you guys and what you're doing.

Thank you.