EP316 Digital Missionary - Jeff & JMo Report on Lausanne's Fourth Congress in Korea

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Connect streaming software to go live.

You will be able to stream excellent connections.

So I should be seeing, people should be seeing me on YouTube.

And Jason Morris is walking in the building.

Let me let him in.

Hey!

Hey, hey.

How are you doing?

By the way, I went ahead and pressed the button.

We're broadcasting live right now.

Just so you know.

No pressure.

We didn't actually...

I sent Jason a text earlier today.

I was like, hey, I think this is what I want to talk about.

Do you agree with this?

And he added a couple of things.

So we did not really debrief on this as much as it was,

hey, we're just going to like jump in and hit the ground running.

So what you drinking?

The yerba mate.

This is a catawala blend.

I forget the name, the brand, but it has catawala in it.

I don't know what that means in English.

It's like one of the herb things.

I mean, I hear you talk and it literally feels like it's a different language,

which I love and respect.

You are always drinking those, man.

Every time I see you.

How many of those do you drink a day?

Well, it is just one cup of tea that gets...

You know, I keep throwing water on me.

So it's like if you could have like one or two teabags

and then just drink that all day.

That's kind of what it's like.

Oh, really?

Okay.

I got to learn more about the drinking habits.

Yeah, I usually don't drink it after around two o'clock in the afternoon

if I want to sleep that evening.

Very cool.

All right.

So I just blew up a bunch of notifications.

I'm still...

I mean, I'm frustrated, J-Mo.

So I got to get with Andy.

YouTube has been very problematic for me streaming.

For whatever reason, Riverside to YouTube,

like it's just...

It's not working for me.

And so like it...

I literally worked like 30 minutes ago

because I was just working through issues

and it worked fine.

And then, you know,

don't change any settings.

Don't change the stream key.

Don't change anything.

Just turn on press, you know, broadcast again

and it's not working.

So...

Hopefully, you know what?

I was trying to...

Because we got a lot of our international friends

and I'll catch you keeping up with us on WhatsApp.

And so like I'm really trying to get, you know,

YouTube to be the deal.

And we just...

We got to get it figured out

because it's not working.

But Twitch...

Is there a way to do RTMP inside of?

That's actually what's happening is

is my firewall is blocking YouTube from Riverside.

And so I did RTMP

and RTMP is only working like once

and it's off.

And the guys at Riverside are like,

no, it should be a persistent key in URL.

You shouldn't have to change anything.

If it works once, it'll work forever.

And I'm like...

It depends on how you have it set up.

Yeah, maybe something's wrong.

But listen, at this point,

I'm completely willing to say,

hey, I'm an idiot

because I just want to fix.

I don't care if I'm the blame for that.

Awesome.

Well, you know,

Jason knows how much of an idiot I am

because...

Well, let me just say this.

The day before Jason and I

were going to Korea,

we're on a call.

Maybe it was a...

I don't remember what call it was about.

It was some sort of call.

And Leighton was in the room.

Leighton gave testimony to this.

Leighton, we were together

and Jason says,

okay, hey, we're going to Korea together.

I need to know,

like, Jeff,

what do you need from me

on the trip?

Like, how can I, you know,

how can I help you in this?

And I looked at Jason

and I was like,

pretend that I'm a five-year-old little boy

who has no idea

what he's supposed to do

in international airports

because

I don't.

You're like, really?

It's like, I travel all the time.

Send me in the U.S.

No, international is different.

With a backpack.

International is 100% different.

Like, I mean, listen,

I felt so much better.

Like, just the fact

that my Uber app worked

in Incheon, Korea, in Seoul.

Oh, I know.

That's huge.

Oh, my gosh.

It was like,

I can breathe

because I was so lost

without this stuff.

And so Jason did a great job

up until the last day.

And the last day,

he ditched me,

which was awesome

because it was like,

he was like,

I've been carrying you around

for like,

I've been carrying your sorry butt

for a week.

I'm leaving you.

Sorry, bump.

That was awesome.

I did.

I fell asleep at the table.

I was like, boom,

face down at this table.

We were both.

Like, oh, my gosh.

Exhausted.

I don't know about you,

but I was pretty white.

Yeah.

You're a,

you're not a,

do you qualify yourself

as an introvert or extrovert?

You're kind of like in the middle.

Yeah.

It's weird.

I can,

I don't know.

It's kind of,

I'm an ambivert.

I feel like

if

one of the things

that I've discovered

in a party

scenario,

I will

find

one or two people

to have a deep conversation with

instead of

work in the crowd,

that tends to be my

MO,

which kind of lends me

to believe I'm probably

leaning more toward

the introvert side

than the extrovert side,

but I can turn it on

whenever I want.

I just can't.

I mean,

that's for a long time.

So the brilliance

of the church digital

sent two introverts,

borderline introverts,

right?

To,

uh,

to a Congress

on the other side

of the planet

with 5,000 people.

Yeah.

Work in a booth.

What could possibly

go wrong?

What could go wrong

with that equation?

Oh my gosh.

It,

it was,

man,

I want,

I want to get into

the conversation

here a little bit.

We're hanging

to hang out today

and just share

some of our experiences

and our excitement,

uh,

for what happens

as a result.

And,

um,

you know,

people like,

was,

was it a good,

was it good?

Was it good?

I was like,

oh my gosh,

it was,

it was amazing.

It was affirming.

It was,

um,

you know,

life changing

is too strong

of a word.

And I think we,

at the church level,

we throw life change

around maybe a little

too much.

Um,

but I know that,

you know,

we've been busting

our hump

for the church digital.

We've been,

we've been shifting

a lot over the past

couple of months

trying to get

to a place

without even

really affirmation

that the thing

was going to work.

And,

uh,

we get out there

and start having

some conversations

and it was just

incredible.

Like I will tell

the stories,

but I literally

saw grown men

cry describing

them some of

this,

this shift

to a digital

missionary.

And,

um,

it was just

so,

so good.

So I do

want to structure,

well,

Hey,

let me,

Jason,

you know,

just to kick

it off.

Um,

initial,

like we're going

to get into

the meat of

this.

So,

so like,

don't,

don't drive

this,

um,

but give me

initial reaction,

initial take

something other

than,

oh my gosh,

it's going

to be so

great to

collaborate

together

because you've

used that

twice in

different shorts

with me.

So you got

to come up

with something

better than

collaboration,

collaboration,

collaboration.

What's your,

what's your like

initial thought

on,

on LaZone?

what blows my

mind is this

was a collective

gathering of

the global

church.

Most of the

time when

you,

and it

was a,

uh,

all of the

delegates

were,

um,

by invitation

only.

So it wasn't

just,

um,

just rando

dudes,

conference

junkies,

you know,

that sort

of thing.

these were,

these were

high-level

people globally

that actually

get stuff

done

that are

there to

collaborate

and partner.

That was

the goal.

And it

wasn't just

a bunch

of,

you know,

people like

us,

you know,

old white

guys.

It was,

um,

the global

church

everywhere

and intentionally

so.

I don't know

if you had

a chance

to like work

on the

gap

tables

and that

sort of

thing.

But at

every table

I sat

at,

there was

a representation

of every

continent.

And that's

really different.

Most of us

are used

to going

to a

conference,

hearing some

great talks

and being

surrounded by

people that

are kind

of like

us,

wherever

that may

be.

Um,

in this

particular

case,

it was

intentionally

diverse.

And that

actually,

created a

few issues

here and

there.

Right?

So if

you can

imagine

topics of

discussion

being

the

persecuted

church,

for example,

and you

have

Palestinians

and Jews

in the

same room

around the

same table

talking about

topics like

that.

What could

possibly go

wrong?

There were

a few

sparks here

and there

around

different

topics

that

are

healthy

conflict

around

people

that

genuinely

and deeply

love

Jesus,

figuring out

how to

work

together

in spite

of different

perspectives.

the same

would be

true of

talking

around

the

topics

of

violence

and you

have

Russians

and

Ukrainians

in the

same room.

What could

possibly go?

Right?

So it's

stuff like

that where

it's like,

okay,

the conversations

we're having

are at a

completely

different level

and are

primed

and designed

for

reconciliation

and cooperation

at a

level that

I don't

know that

I've

experienced

before.

So,

you know,

talking about

difficult things

and there

was even

one moment

where

at one

of my

tables,

you know,

I was,

you know,

sitting down

and they

were talking

about the

persecuted

church

and I

didn't

realize

how that

would even

trigger some

of the

things that

I had

experienced

on the

mission

field.

It was

a lot

and I

just,

I lost

it and

I was

just

breaking

down,

bawling,

snot running

down my

nose.

I was just,

you know,

praying for

the persecuted

church,

knowing

that for

the first

time I

saw this

even-handed

approach

around,

yes,

you know,

we always

hear about,

you know,

the blood

and the

martyrs,

the seed

of church

and all

these good

things that

come out

of it.

That is

true.

While at

the same

time,

validating

the pain

and the

suffering

that our

brothers and

sisters go

through at

the same

time,

right?

And that

particular

tension,

I've never

been in an

environment that

would allow

for both

because usually

it's one or

the other,

right?

But allowing

for both

to coexist

or Jesus

to be present

in the middle

of pain

on topics

like that

was just,

that was

life-changing

for me

because,

or,

you know,

I'm going

through stuff,

you know,

we don't

have time

to talk

about all

that,

but I've

gone through

stuff and

I was able

to pray

for people

who have

gone through

stuff too

in ways

that I felt

for the first

time there

was actual

value in

some of the

things that I've

experienced that

have been very

hard.

For the first

time I was

able to pray

for people

with a

level of

empathy

that we

all needed

you know

and to

suffer with

the global

church and

to sit

with Jesus

and do

that together

man,

that was

like to

get an

opportunity

to do

that was

nuts

and then

being able

to layer

on top

of that

the

opportunities

that the

church

digital

provides

for the

persecuted

church

in

persecuted

areas

and to

meet

with other

partners

who you're

never going

to be able

to google

search and

find because

they're

hiding

but in

environments

like this

where

okay,

you can't

take photos,

you can't

publish this

on social

media,

and there

were problems

with that

too.

I mean,

there were

some people

that were

like shooting

photos and

making friends

and then

putting people

in danger

and we had

to shut

that down

and to be

able to be

in a room

to talk

with the

actual

people who

were getting

things done,

we've

never

had

a chance

to do

that.

And then

to offer

tools that

would help

them and

have them

be boots

on the

ground to

help us

connect and

collaborate.

Dude,

when do you

get a chance

to do that?

I mean,

come on.

It's

incredible.

By the way,

I asked him

for a simple

overview and

10 minutes

later he's

done.

That is

such a

Jason Morris

moment right

there.

So good.

I was like,

let's go for

something light.

Let's talk

about kimchi.

No,

man,

straight in.

We're talking

persecuted church,

man.

Oh,

man,

so good.

But that's,

I mean,

that's really

like we can

tease this thing,

but that's,

I mean,

that's the heart

of what we

dealt with.

I had a,

I had a,

I had a grandpa

come up,

somebody brought

him over to

my booth.

I didn't see

who the person

was that brought

him,

but I just

saw a hand

motion to me.

I was talking

with somebody

else and

dude's in a

close,

he's a,

he's a grandpa

in a closed

country.

He's just an

older gentleman.

When I say

grandpa,

like his

eighties.

And,

and he's

like,

can I take

a moment

to talk

with you

about what

the future

of our

church needs

to look

like in

our country?

Because we're

trying to

figure out

how to

prepare best

for that.

And I was

like,

I will,

I will give

you the rest

of the

conference

if for no

other reason

than to have

this conversation

with you.

Like I will

do nothing

other than

answer that

question for

you is

unbelievable.

Like there

are,

there were

people that

would not,

we're not

even comfortable

joining our

public WhatsApp

group.

And so I've

got like,

like a list

on my,

on my device

of people

that I need

to speak

with directly

to keep

them informed

of what's

going on

because of

the secrecy

of the

underground

church

and their

environments.

And,

and I

quickly realized,

oh my gosh,

I need to find

somebody at

cybersecurity

that actually

knows what

they're talking

about because,

you know,

if we're going

to be advising

people in

closed areas,

I don't need

to be like

making up

crap.

I actually

need somebody

that knows

what they're

doing.

And so

we're,

we're,

we're digging

into that

in a big

way,

but,

oh my gosh,

so good.

Now let's,

let's do this.

Kimchi was great.

Yes.

Whatever that

noodle soup we

had that was

not quite ramen,

it was like a

bigger than ramen

ramen soup.

That was good.

Chinese food was

good.

Yes.

Yeah,

that was good.

I mean,

honestly,

I don't think

I had a bad

meal the entire

time.

I think I had

kimchi two or

three times a day.

I had so much

kimchi.

If you know what

kimchi is,

it's spicy

cabbage with

other things,

with like hot

sauce mixed

in.

It's really

good.

But that sucker

ripped up my

stomach for

like the week

after.

Like I was,

I didn't realize

but coming back

like kimchi

did not like

me on the

after post

trip.

So yeah,

you're welcome

for that.

What,

one of the

surprises for

me,

like I knew,

by the way,

there's a bunch

of people in

chat.

Feel free to

ask questions

in there.

I'm trying to

keep an eye

on it.

Sumi beats

ripped up your

stomach.

Yeah,

totally did.

But let's

do this.

Lizanne,

digital culture.

Like Michael

O stands on

stage night

one,

day two.

Yeah,

there are that

we need to be

successful.

Lizanne needs to

be successful

in three D's

for the next 15

years for us to be

successful for the

next Congress.

And it was really

interesting.

Disciple making,

discipleship,

disciple making,

multiplication,

generational.

That's what he

meant by

disciple making

and digital.

Literally,

2024,

one of the

top initiatives

for the

organization is

to better

understand

digital.

Parallel that

to 2010 when

they did not

even say the

word digital

on stage,

the entire

Congress.

And seeing

that not only

represented in

leadership,

but throughout

the entire

culture of

the organization

was just a

beautiful thing.

You got anything

you want to

share on

that?

Well,

I mean,

they ran the

whole thing on

an app,

more than one

app,

actually.

You have the

Digital Discovery

Center bringing

together intentionally

movers and

shakers in the

digital space

for the digital

church.

That was really

fun, too.

So, yeah,

whether that be

indigenous or

global switchboard

or faith AI,

you know,

the chosen,

there's all of

these different

players that

were coming

together so

that we could

help each

other, all

bringing to

bear at the

table, okay,

here's our

superpower that

we have,

let's put this

on the table

and let's help

the global

church together

with the

digital tools.

And it was

fascinating

because there

was no question

that everybody

understood the

power of

digital or

finishing the

Great

Commission.

So, everybody

was on the

same page.

It's like, if

Jesus and the

Apostle Paul were

alive today, they

would be doing

everything digitally.

Yeah.

And we do, too.

And if we've

got to think

where the

direction of

society and

our world is

headed, there

is a fascinating

overlap between

the world that

is becoming

connected with

smartphones and

the internet

that happens

to be, oh,

by the way,

the same

world that we

have yet to

reach with

the gospel in

a meaningful

way, which,

oh, by the

way, also

happens to be

the persecuted

church, the

vast majority.

The overlap of

all of those

things is not

coincidental.

So, what the

digital church

provides is a

way for both the

missionary and the

person exploring

faith to explore

Jesus and the

gospel in a way

that's a lot

less risky than

how it was done

50, 100 years

ago when your

head just got

chopped off or

whatever.

So, the

opportunities that

are before us,

let alone being

able to spread

the word and

the hope of the

gospel to an

ever-growing

population that

we haven't

really, I

mean, kept

up with, that's

part of our

problem right now.

We have to use

different methods

because while

Christianity is

growing, we're

just the same

percentage of the

global population

that, by the

way, the growing

parts of the

global population

are the ones

that are getting

connected to the

internet and the

ones that are

getting smartphones

now and the

ones that are in

the persecuted

church.

It all just

comes together.

So, I feel

like that God

has prepared

all of us,

not just the

church digital,

but around the

world, different

digital partners

with the

persecuted church

that is awakening

to the

possibilities the

digital provides.

All of these

things are not

by accident.

Jesus is

orchestrating this

math chess game

so that the

great commission

can actually

become the

great completion

through the

great collaboration

of all these

partners together

globally.

So, I'm just

super excited to

be a part of

what Jesus

is doing.

Great commission,

great completion,

collaboration,

great completion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're channeling

your inner Dave

Ferguson over at

New Thing with

that.

That was good.

A little bit.

Hey, so, yeah,

I mean, we've got,

to be honest,

like, we're getting

some feedback right

now with the

closed church.

I know, in chat

right now in

Twitch, one of the

individuals in there

actually watched

the service, the

Congress online,

which we had, you

know, just with

Resi, I know the

stats, we, Resi

broadcasted it in

seven languages

simultaneous, English,

Spanish, French,

Russian, Portuguese,

Mandarin, Chinese, and

Korean to get to

seven.

And then we had,

they had actually,

and this was

Tall Skinny Kiwi

actually developed a

virtual reality lounge

for people to meet

and connect with all

over.

And so it was, like,

really cool to see,

you know, how

interconnected TCD

ended up becoming

with Lizana making

this happen.

It was so cool.

But the individual,

there's somebody in

chat that's from a

closed country, and

he connected, he

actually reached out

to me, book time

with me during the

Congress.

I think the first

time it showed up,

like, the time zones

were weird.

I don't know how

this worked, but he

scheduled a call with

me at 2 a.m.

Korean time.

And I was like,

I'm not going to

make that call, bud,

sorry.

And so we

rescheduled.

But, you know,

he's in a closed

country and trying to

figure out digital

ministry, and so he's

hanging out and

talking with people

in the chat, and

he's been on

WhatsApp and Discord,

and, you know,

that's the game

right now where we

want to create, we

want to connect with

people like our

friend here through

the Congress and

other people, we

want to invite them

in a community to

build relationships,

establish trust, and

gain credibility,

essentially, to get

us to the point

where we're going to

start to talk about

equipping and

equipping digital

missionaries, and

we're going to get

into that in a

little bit.

But, you know,

even, let's, you

know, let's segue

into this as we're

talking about, you

know, digital

missionaries.

This was really

the first time,

Jason, that we

publicly talked about,

you know, digital

missionaries and being

digital missionaries

in the ages.

Like, we've done

internal language with

our friends in

Discord, and, you

know, everybody's

going to love.

I'm not going to

stand in Discord and

say anything that

everybody's going to

hate, because they're

like, oh, yeah, this

is awesome, blah, blah,

blah, it's great, you

know, sell them land in

the Everglades, and

they think it's

incredible, especially

with the storm coming.

But, you know, if you

try to sell this idea

to people that are

called to Christ, and

even, they're not

called to Christ, but

called to digital

ministry, like, it

was scary to me a

little bit, like, how

it would be received.

And it was, it was

encouraging to me to

see how many people got

on board with the idea

of being a digital

missionary.

Like, we had, I don't

know, 400-plus

conversations, four to

500.

I hate we handed out

450 stickers with a QR

code on it, and just

all sorts of people were

interested in the idea.

It was interesting, just

as a kind of a, I

didn't see that coming.

Maybe I should have, but

I didn't.

You know, in America

and in the Discord

community, for the most

part, the conversations

we've had up to

Lausanne were people

that were somewhat

aware of digital

ministry.

Like, the average

persona we talk to is

somebody who actually is

very comfortable with

digital ministry, just

has been told by their

leadership it doesn't

work that way.

and they're coming to us

to get validation and

permission to actually do

ministry outside of, you

know, the church and the

denomination and everybody

being critical around

them.

That wasn't who we

connected with in Korea.

The people we connected

with in Korea actually, for

the most part, had little

to no grounding in

digital ministry or digital

anything.

There were more typical

missionaries, church

planters, like, I don't

have to say normal people,

but really, really, really

normal people doing

ministry, not, you know,

experts in the digital.

There were experts, but for

the most part, it was just,

you know, salt of the earth

people trying to, you know,

extend their ministry by

looking at digital.

And they were so excited

about the idea of digital.

Do you maybe, do you have a

Sherry or, Sherry, a story

or anything you want to throw

into that?

I think, I think one, one

thing when, you know, they,

they're in the digital

discovery center, that, that

little expo area of all the

digital tools.

We got folks with VR headsets

and NFTs and Web3 and dude,

all the crazy stuff, right?

And they walk up to the booth

and they're like, okay,

what do you do?

And I would tell them we're a

digital mission sending

agency.

And they'd be like, uh, what?

Sometimes they would say,

what is that?

Because they're like digital

missionary.

That was a little bit of

cognitive dissonance for

them.

Not that they're close to it.

They just didn't know.

And then the other ones were

like, oh, tell me more about

that.

I got both responses, but

neither were antagonistic.

They just either didn't know

or they did and wanted more.

And the follow-up to that was

always, um, yes, we send

digital missionaries making

digital disciples gathering in

digital first churches that

send digital missionaries to do

the same.

That's pretty much it.

And that little simple

explanation for a lot of

people, especially those who

are missionally minded, it

just crystallized for them and

it made sense.

And for those who needed

further explanation, they're

like, well, what is a digital

missionary?

And I'm like, well, you know

what a missionary is?

Yes.

It's a person who tells people

about Jesus using digital tools.

That's it.

And once they realized how

simple it was, then they're

like, wait, I use WhatsApp to do

that already.

And I'm like, well, you're

probably a digital missionary.

You don't even realize it.

Now, the question is, are you

leveraging it to its maximum

potential or not?

Then now we can have a

conversation.

We can help you.

We have a bunch of resources,

ideas, a community that can share

best practices, all those sorts

of things.

And then they're, they would just

light up and they're like, oh, I

got to be a part of this.

And that's basically how the

conversations went.

It was really open because

you're talking with people who

just want to tell others about

Jesus, period.

You know, it's kind of, you

know, when you're talking about

just great mission work, where

Jesus is saying, you know, make

disciples of all nations.

How do you do that if you don't

use digital?

That's going to be a lot of work

if you don't use digital.

So it's, it's a lot harder

without using digital technology.

It's a lot more expensive.

And if you take the great

commission seriously, you've got

to really think that through.

Now, it's not to say that, you

know, the, the theologians and

the pastor types, they have a

very necessary and vital part in

this work that Jesus has given

us.

But the people that we were

talking to at the Lausanne

Congress, the Congress is like

Lausanne Congress for world

evangelism, right?

So it, it had a different spin

to it.

So when you're talking about

world evangelism, it, it's just

a different emphasis.

Once you go out and share the

gospel, somebody has to go behind

that guy and actually start

planning churches.

It's like the difference between

Paul and Barnabas.

You know, you've got the guy who's

on the edge, always wanting to do

the new thing.

And then you've got the guy that's

behind, who's a little bit more

relational, who wants to build up

and edify the body of Christ.

Now that it's established, you

need both, right?

But if you're talking to the

Barnabas guy about digital

ministry, then he's going to have

all kinds of red flags all over

the place.

If you're talking to the Paul guy,

he's like, let's just get the

job done and worry about all the

rest is later, right?

Let's just get the job done.

And so it was really refreshing to

talk to people who are just

telling others about Jesus and

trying to find the best tools to

make that happen.

Yeah, so, so good.

I know one of, one of the

conversations I had, this guy

walks up to the booth.

So many good, like I said, 400

some conversations.

I just, I'll preface it by saying

I had two that went negative.

One guy's like, what's a, what's

a digital missionary?

And I handed him the sticker and

kind of answered him.

And he cut me off about halfway

through my little elevator pitch

and he's like, Hey, I appreciate

what you're doing.

I'm not interested and walked

away.

And I actually, I was completely

fine with that.

There was one guy who I'm not

going to say who he worked for,

but he worked for a Christian

book publishing company.

And I think when he heard digital

and church in the same sentence,

he's like, yeah, I'm done.

And, um, what it wanted to wanted

to pick a fight.

And that was like, yeah, I had

like four people waiting to talk

to me.

And then Jason was nowhere to be

found.

And I kept trying to like defuse

this guy and move on.

Jason, I say that Jason was

talking with partners and doing

things like connecting and not at

the booth.

And, uh, but it was, uh, I was

like by myself at the booth and I

was trying to move on because I

had a line and this guy just

wanted to kept picking fights.

And it was, it was a frustrating

experience, but that was, was

minimal.

But I had this one guy that, that

came up to me and, and he looks

down at our, our banner, we had

our logo on, on like a table and

it said, um, you know, the

church.digital.

And the guy says to me, he's

like, okay, you've got, um, you've

got church and digital in your

title, in your company name.

Um, those are two words that

don't go together.

So that already makes you

interesting.

What do you actually do?

And I was like, Hey, I'm

Jeff, uh, the church digital, we

are a digital missionary sending

agency.

We, and he cuts me off.

Like he's a, he's a, he's a

C-suite guy.

And he's like, all right, I'm

sold.

You don't even need to tell

him anything else.

What do I need to do to help?

How can I help?

And, uh, dude, I like, I met

with him for 20 minutes, started

talking about all this stuff.

And, uh, it's just, it was

exciting to see the vision of,

um, digital missionaries, people

catching it and running with

it.

No, they, they really

vision crazily enough is

probably a little bit further

than even some of our team.

Like they were talking about

transhumanism.

They were trying to figure that

out, you know?

Yeah.

And of course I know a little bit

about that topic, but I feel

like that's 10, 20 years from

now.

And they're thinking in their

mind, well, we're not going to

meet for another 10 years.

We need to talk about this now so

that we can get ahead of it.

And yeah, okay.

They're talking about how AI and

transhumanism and all that kind of

stuff, you know, machine sentience

and all that stuff.

And, and to me, I feel like, well,

let's just tell people about Jesus.

But I mean, that there was, there

was a forward thinking and a breath

to the topics at hand on the digital

side, I was in a whole, a whole

session that we spent days with

representatives from every continent

around my table talking about how

our forms, not functions, but how

our forms of church need to change

in the digital age.

That was a fun conversation.

And then we had others that were in

other, other breakouts that were

spending days talking about, okay,

how does discipleship work in the

digital age?

Yeah.

And so I'm really curious to hear

what Simon is, what, what his

discoveries were.

There was some really great

conversations and relationships

around action that is, and this is

another thing about this particular

conference is that it wasn't just a

data dump and a rah, rah, rah

inspiration pep rally.

It was, no, we're going to sit down and

covenant to partner together the next

10 years to actually get something done

together as the global church, which is

very different because when, when you're

just pontificating, that's one thing.

But when you're sitting down and saying,

no, no, no, we're going to work together.

I've got, I've got stuff where I'm interacting with folks this morning on actual work that is being done between like alpha and the middle east and digital and all these other things, as well as a whole other group of guys that are going to experiment with different liturgies with a digital layer on top of the hybrid kind of stuff.

And report back to the team, I mean, that's not, that's not, that's not a normal conference.

That's not a normal conference.

This is, this is a, they're work groups.

This is the global church working together.

And yeah, I'm super excited to see what's going to come.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm, I'm really curious.

I was funny.

I tried, they tried to pull me into the train humanism conversation a little bit too.

And I was like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not ready to, to do that.

Like I'm not discrediting you.

I think it's awesome.

I want, I wanted to be in the room to listen.

Like, it was funny when somebody told me they were in the train humanism group.

I was like, did they take it serious or was it a joke?

Like, no, it was serious.

It's good for them.

You know, and that's what I heard.

It was, it was really serious, but it was funny.

So I was like, I'm going to go to the digital discipleship one.

And that's the one Simon did go to that.

Right.

Is that what you say?

Yeah.

That's what I thought.

And, and so it's like, that's the one I wanted to go to.

And at the last minute, somebody from another organization came, basically came up and was

like, Hey, everybody tells me you're, you guys are really good at community.

Right.

And I was like, I mean, yes, it's the, what we do.

The community.

Huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're a community.

And, and so he's like, well, I'm, I'm leading one over here on community.

Digital community.

And so I don't care what you're going to.

You're coming to mind.

This guy literally stole me, uh, to go, to go to his breakout, like in a completely different

building on the 46th floor.

I'm like hobbling around with a cane back and forth.

How did I go by the way?

I never did get a chance to figure out what happened with all of that.

With the digital community or with the cane?

Yeah.

The digital community one.

Um, we, so there were like four groups in there.

And, um, the, there were two of them basically got, when we talk about these breakouts, it's

not your typical breakout.

This is like a, it's a gap GAP, um, where it's basically like there's a, there's 25 major

issues and it's our job as, as a Congress to address the 25 issues.

And, and one of the transhumanism was one of the gaps.

Digital community was one of the gaps.

And so there were four groups in the room, uh, that were meeting to try to figure out

how to, um, solve this digital community gap.

Now of the, of the four subgroups within the room on digital community, two of them were

like, we're going to try better to do this.

And we're going to do this.

And at my church, we're going to do this.

And it wasn't big C church as much as them as an individual, not discrediting that, but

it wasn't, I don't feel like it was the focus.

Um, there were two groups.

There was the group that I ended up being at.

And then the guy that stole me, his kind of subgroup, um, were like the two really big C church

level things.

And so I put together, I say this, not me, but within, within the group that I was working

with, there was a, uh, talking about continents.

Uh, it was North America, it was Europe, it was Asia, and it was, um, Oceania.

So there were, there were four people, probably five nationalities, five or six nationalities

speaking into this thing, man.

It was, it was unbelievable.

Um, we're all on WhatsApp, like, you know, no way to get us all together on a zoom call

because it's just time zones are so crazy as we're spread out all over.

But, um, we designed a research project that I'm now working with, uh, Lizanne to try to

figure out funding, honestly, and I'm not saying this officially, like one of the options on

the table is taking it to Barna and letting Barna run with the project.

And so like where that's on the table, like I'm look, honestly, I'm looking at this thing

and saying this research project is going to be my next book.

Um, my, I don't know if it's my next one, but I'm going to write a book on this, like

the, the depth of digital community towards discipleship and how to manage that.

We're, we're wanting to test the, um, the effectiveness of evangelism, of discipleship, of building trust,

mental health implications, best practices, a lot, kind of the superficial, superficial light

words, but some, some of the, like the, the easy lessons to come from that.

Now, what the other group within digital community wants to do is they want that, those best practices

to, to dig into, um, now a much larger theological and, uh, academic, uh, conversation, like how

do we address this at the big C church level?

Like we, my project's more of the prerequisite that gives people, you know, ammunition to fire

in, in the larger conversations.

And that's where it's like digital community is how we open up into the conversation.

And then we're going to get into anthropomorphism, which is going to get us into blah, blah, blah.

And that's going to get us into training.

And so like, they're, they're figuring out how to like, they're playing chess and we're like

playing checkers on this, you know, much smaller thing in digital community.

And so they told me that's what they were doing.

I was like, I, I am not jumping into a conversation with academics on transhumanism.

You all are crazy.

If you think that's going to be helpful.

And they were like, no, no, no, no, no.

You just, you just do digital community.

You give us the stuff that you're talking about and we'll do the rest.

And I'm like, I can do that.

And so we're, um, yeah, I'm literally bringing on a project manager now for that.

And, uh, trying to figure out funding and all sorts of fun stuff that you get to when

you're doing research projects like this.

So I, uh, you know, I went into Lausanne thinking, you know, um, no, I mean, it was,

it was going to be more work either way.

Like there was no way coming out of, it was going to be less work, but the, the, uh, the

gap stuff, I was like, in my mind, it was, I'm totally just going to phone this in and

you know, get off my beat, take a break and rest.

And all of a sudden, like, um, I'm smack in the middle of everything and, and running point

with this multi, uh, national project, uh, involving, you know, 10 of the top global organizations,

missional organizations in the, on the planet.

And it's like, okay, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm glad to do that, but, um, we'll figure it out.

It wasn't like in, in that sense that God was answering prayer because this community was

praying for the two of us, that God would orchestrate, um, divine encounters.

And I'm telling you, Jesus did that all week because there were a constellation of conversations

that I could not have orchestrated that have been brought together to help the global church

in meaningful ways from all around the world.

Um, and I'm super excited about what that will mean for outposts in the Middle East and how that

affects, you know, the Jews for Jesus and alpha for, you know, the Muslim nations and, um,

yeah, if all of those things together was like, wait a minute, it's not, this cannot be by accident.

And so thanks community for the ways that you prayed for us while we were there because Jesus

was just like, you need to talk to this person.

And this person can sit down at your table.

Like there were random people that weren't even scheduled for the table that I was sitting at

that were just like, Hey, I'm just going to pull in here.

No one's at my table.

And the, you know, coordinator for alpha, you know, partnership just happened to be there.

Yeah.

Okay.

I've been trying to get in touch with you for months, bro.

That's so funny.

The, uh, prop, probably the most ironic conversation I had.

Um, it was, it was the random people at, at a breakfast table or, uh, or for me, it was

the bus rides back and forth.

And, um, one morning I sat down, uh, next to this guy and his name was, his name was

Jeffrey.

And, uh, we kind of older gentlemen.

I mean, I'm old, but he's older than me.

And, um, uh, it was a white guy, but he talked in an accent.

He was basically from Canada.

And, um, I, uh, I, I, I asked him, uh, you know, we joked about each other's names

on our lanyards, Jeff and Jeffrey.

And I was like, well, what do you do?

And he's like, well, my job's the simplest on the planet to describe.

Uh, I'm, uh, uh, I forget what he said, but it's basically, he's like the president of

a university in a Bible school in Canada.

And, um, I, I laughed and I was like, well, mine's not easy to describe.

Um, I'm founder of a digital missionary sending organization.

And, uh, and he's like, what the garbage is that?

Like he's his face on his look on his face was, was shocking.

And, and literally I had like a 25 minute bus ride sit next to this guy where basically

I'm like, Hey, why doesn't your school teach a digital ministry?

And what do we need to do to actually make that happen?

Do you not actually think it's a valid ministry method or is there other, you know, nefarious

forces that are keeping it from happening?