EP317 - Craig Whitney Explores Digital Calling

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, we got episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

Once again, hey everybody, it's episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

I had a little button misclicked there.

Jeff here.

I am very much looking forward to this conversation today.

You know, as I was streaming, we got streaming up,

we're streaming this live on Twitch and YouTube.

My system's been having some glitches with YouTube,

so we're doing a buffer video at the beginning to make sure everything's working.

And it's all sorts of awkward because there's no music on the video.

We need to get more music going on that.

So, hey, we've got Flatcap, we've got Yooka-Laylee watching in Twitch World.

Some other people over there as well.

Let me see.

Melanious, Pastor Dez.

Pastor Dez, your name is not familiar to me, sir.

Welcome to TCD.

Thanks for jumping on there.

Although it's funny, when I see that, it's like, you know,

I see Pastor and like Dez makes me think destroy,

which I'm assuming you're not, but it just kind of makes me think that.

I don't know.

I just watched like G.I. Joe's movie yesterday evening.

And so I don't know, maybe that's stuck in the head a little too much.

We can criticize me later for that if you want.

But, hey, really looking forward to this conversation today.

You know, we're in this season.

We're digging deep into the idea of digital missionaries.

We talked about digital missionaries and really the Lausanne L4 Congress,

the Korea Congress that we attended, that Jason Morris, J-Mo and I attended.

We talked about that last week.

The On Demand just came out, and it was a phenomenal experience

and really opened the idea of what the potential for a global digital missionary.

Like, you know, we've talked a lot here in the U.S.,

and we've worked a lot with in the U.S. people that are called the digital ministry,

but maybe their church doesn't necessarily appreciate that.

But it was interesting.

In Lausanne, like we'd met not a lot of people that were friendly.

We had the digital missionaries, digital missions work, or digital anything.

Like, they weren't opposed to it.

They just didn't know anything about it.

And so we really got into the idea of talking with normal missionaries

about the idea of implementing digital to extend the reach.

And, like, it was a beautiful experience, over 500 conversations,

four to 500 conversations, and all around a phenomenal eye-opening time.

And we're excited to see what God's doing as a result of it.

And so right now, you know, we're broadcasting this on YouTube

because that's where a lot of our international friends are.

We're hanging out on WhatsApp and developing community, engaging with them.

And so what better time to maybe revisit the idea of a digital missionary

than right here coming off of Lausanne.

And so we're going to wrap up this calendar year talking about digital missionaries.

And so as I was revisiting different topics and different ideas,

well, to be honest, I've been wanting to get a friend of mine here on the podcast for a while.

And so he was posting some stuff on LinkedIn, I think, and I saw that.

I was like, oh, my gosh, this is a great topic to explore and to bring in.

And so I am really looking forward to introducing to you all Craig Whitney into the conversation.

Hey, Craig, how are you doing?

Hey, Jeff. Good to see you, man.

Hey, good to see you.

Man, I'm looking forward to this, Craig.

Now, Craig is – I would call him a mentor.

Like, I would not hesitate to call him a mentor.

He's laughing because he doesn't consider himself a mentor.

But I will say this, that I worked with Craig at Stadia Church Planting.

And so I had two, maybe three bosses in my time at Stadia Church Planting.

And Craig was a phenomenal boss with Stadia.

And Craig really opened my eyes to a lot of this digital church planting stuff.

Like, yes, it's ironic.

I worked for a church planting organization.

And really, Confession Hour had no understanding or grounding of what a church planter was

or a church planter, anything whatsoever.

How I got the job working for a planting organization with no experience.

That's a whole other thing.

But Craig really kind of brought me in, took me under his wing, and showed me a lot of stuff

that not only was helpful for physical church planting, but digital church planting

and so much of the digital missions work that we're doing now.

And so, Craig, man, thanks for joining us here today.

Yeah, it's great to be here.

Thanks for the invite.

So, Craig's with Multiply Projects now.

And so, Craig, why don't you just set up here a little bit and tell us a little bit about

what you're doing.

Yeah, so I am ancient, right?

My wife and I, along with three other couples, started, planted a church back in 1991.

I don't know the age of your audience, but for some of them, they may need to be reminded

that, you know, the reason our church didn't have a webpage, any social media accounts, stream

our services, record them, and put them on podcasts is because none of that technology existed.

We bought ads in the yellow pages so that people would know where our church was.

Like, that's what it was like in 1991.

But I've been involved in church planting for a long time.

And really what I have seen over that time, and if you talk to anybody engaged, particularly

here in the U.S., the number of people sort of raising their hand and going, hey, I want

to plant a church, has just shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and shrunk.

Finding someone to start a church now is just incredibly difficult.

And so the vision of Multiply Project is to make more church planters.

I know that sounds kind of strange, but we're trying to build a farm system.

You know, if you've got, you know, run around and you say, you know, there's kids out playing

soccer, you know, four and five-year-olds playing soccer.

You know, that is part of a farm system that's how you end up with professional soccer players

or, you know, if it's football or whatever sport it is.

We don't have a farm system for church planting.

It just doesn't exist, at least in the U.S. context.

And so we really want to create that.

And specifically, we want to help churches learn how to call, equip, and send church planters

from within their own congregation.

A significant part of the church planning ecosystem in the American context outsourced church planning.

It was the job of the Bible college or the seminary to make a church planter.

It was the job of the denomination to sort of send them.

But really, when you think about multiplication, you know, disciples make disciples, leaders make

leaders, churches plant churches.

And so it's really, really just about sort of how to, how do we get back to that and how

they really empower, you know, churches to become multiplying churches that make and send

church planters.

Yeah, that's, that's fascinating, right?

Now, when I was at Stadia, I felt like there was a trend, or at least that I was seeing,

there was a trend towards more of a bivocational type of planter.

Like not, not a, not a full-time person, but, but at least in the digital space, there was

more of a leaning towards bivocational.

Are you, are you seeing like even the bivocational is starting to dry up or does, does the typical

planter, does the model just look different now?

Like what's, what's some of the challenges you're facing?

I think co-vocational planting is still sort of on the rise.

I think that's going to be increasingly the case.

Again, it's sort of a, you know, secular society.

You know, the idea of starting a church by renting a school building, putting, you know,

up a banner and telling people that there's a new church service happening and thinking

that hundreds of people are going to show up and put enough money in an offering plate

to pay somebody a full-time salary is just sort of unrealistic.

And when you get into high cost areas, it becomes even more unrealistic.

I've been doing some research in your part of the world, Jeff.

South Florida, Palm, Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade counties.

I'm just about opportunities for church planting there.

I'm going to be out there in a couple of weeks to share some of that, that research.

And a huge part of this is just the cost, right?

Costs have skyrocketed, even, you know, post-pandemic.

And so what does that look like?

And increasingly, I think, you know, we think of the idea of missionary,

and we're going to talk about this, as someone that you send away, right?

You know, I grew up as a kid.

A missionary was a person you sent halfway around the world to make disciples in some

other country, some other continent.

But I don't think that's necessary to be a missionary.

Sometimes you send a missionary next door.

And in a lot of places, the person who's already there is the person that's best

equipped to be the missionary to those people.

And so that's a big part of the idea of Multiply Project, is that there are church

planners in your church, and they're already in position to reach the people that are

around them.

We just haven't been calling, equipping them, and sending them to do that.

Yeah, that's intriguing, right?

Like helping people find their purpose, their calling.

And that's really what I want to dig into a little bit today.

Like, you know, Craig, I've talked with you about this offline, but the Church Digital,

we pivoted just recently, right before maybe August, September, towards a digital missionary

sending agency, a digital missionary, basically model, where we're, instead of just exclusively

working with people that are wanting to plant digital churches, like we were for a stretch,

we've now gone to recognizing that digital missionaries look very different in all different types of

shapes and sizes and skill sets and callings.

And, you know, we've got people that are passionate about evangelism, people that are

passionate about discipleship.

We've got streamers, we've got gamers, we've got community builders, we've got mods,

we've got VR people, we've got, you know, Facebookers.

That was weird, Facebookers.

But we've got all sorts of stuff.

Hey, right now, Brew Pastor Joe just walks in for the first time on show.

How are you doing, man?

It's good to see you.

I saw that.

Oh, Joe, it's good to see you.

It'd be great to see you.

But hey, I'm glad you're listening.

Well, hey, he's there.

He's there somewhere.

But anyway, the point being is that we found that there were all of these people hanging

around us wanting to to do something for the kingdom and did not necessarily feel like they

were planting a church or at least the model of what is typically in someone's head when

they're thinking, thinking church like I'm curious as now that you're, you know, working

with churches and trying to get them to multiply and and trying to find the people that are that

are within the churches, like are they open to different ideas of church and ministry and missionary work?

Or are they are they limited in the in the old mindset?

Like what what are you seeing out there on the forefront?

I think some churches are more open than others.

And that's just a reality.

You know, for some churches, planting a church means, you know, starting something that looks

exactly like them.

For others, uh, planting churches looks a little bit more like, hey, we want to plant

something that sort of shares our values, uh, but doesn't necessarily have to look exactly

like we do.

And I think that's actually probably the best place to be a metaphor for that.

I would say it's just really almost like being a parent, right?

Where, you know, what do you really want your kids to take away from growing up in your

home?

But you realistically, you probably don't expect them to wear the exact same clothes that you

wear, and you probably aren't too bothered if they don't listen to the exact same music

you listen to, or maybe they like some different food, right?

There's a lot of things that you can kind of accept that your kids of a different generation

do differently than you do.

But what you really want is that they carry your values right into into the life that they

live in.

So I think if a church approaches church planting that way, it opens up room for a lot of different

expressions, but still creates this ability to sort of sort of own the churches that are

started as, as part of our family, as our children, you don't have to look like us.

We just want them to value the things we value.

And if you value evangelism, discipleship, making disciples and multiplying, those are pretty

easy values to pass along to a next generation as well.

Interesting.

Interesting.

So when we were at Luzon, like we were, like I said earlier, we were talking with with physical

missionaries globally, like India, Africa, the Philippines, the Pacific Islands, some South

America, very, very little US based, for whatever reason, I actually, I don't think I had maybe

one conversation US based out of the four or 500.

But it was, it was much more of a global missionary approach.

Are we, because, because I'm hearing, like, the model may have shifted, where you're not going

to get people to pay a full-time salary for planting churches in America.

And so we've shifted towards more of a missionary type approach, recognizing that ministry looks

different in 2024 and beyond.

Are you recognizing that?

Like, what does a, what is, what's the difference necessarily between missionary and a church planter?

Yeah, so missionary is just, you know, the Latin word missio, it's just the word sent, right?

If you go back in ancient language, whatever, people could be sent to do all kinds of things.

In the context of, you know, the church or the context of making disciples, we typically think

of a missionary as someone who is sent to make disciples.

It's a person who's sent on Jesus' mission.

It's that simple.

I mean, that's all that it is.

And so in that sense, we've sort of done a disservice, at least sort of historically, in the American

context, the way we've thought of missionaries, because we've sort of made missionaries this

really distinct class of people.

You know, like, one out of a thousand people, or ten thousand people, becomes a missionary.

We're all supposed to be missionaries, right?

Jesus told us all to go and make disciples.

He sent us all.

We're all missionaries.

We're all sent on his mission.

And so I think, you know, really the idea is, as an individual, do I have a clarity of sort

of who I'm sent to and what, you know, my part is to play and, you know, what my role is?

And that's really the clarity of becoming a missionary.

Where the distinction is, I think, of missionary to church planner is some people could have a

very distinct sense of calling, right?

Like, I feel called to, you know, make disciples of this particular group of people, evangelize

this group of people.

But maybe it's my job, right?

You know, I go to work every day in an office, and I meet people there, and I share Jesus with

people, and I'm a part of a church that's three blocks from my office.

So I don't really feel like I need to plan a church.

I think my church is great.

So when I, you know, introduce someone to Jesus at my office, I invite them to come to my church.

Well, I'm a missionary to my workplace, but I'm not a church planter.

Right?

However, I might feel called to a group of people that wouldn't be comfortable in any church

that I can find in my community.

I mean, I think it's where a lot of your digital missions and digital church planning come in,

right?

Is, you know, people are hanging out in space, like, go to a church?

Like, that's just not, you know, that becomes a barrier to following Jesus rather than an invitation

to following Jesus.

So then there's a need to say, hey, if I'm going to evangelize people, they need to, you

know, becoming part of a church is part of becoming a follower of Jesus, but there's

no church for them.

So not only do I need to make them disciples, I need to create a church, a community where

they can be disciples together.

And then you become a church planter.

And so sort of, you know, the logic pieces would be not all missionaries are church planters,

but all church planters are missionaries.

Hold on one second.

Not all missionaries are church planters.

Like my calculus brain just exploded.

Not all missionaries are church planters, but all church planters are operating missionally.

There are, they are missionaries.

Should be, yes.

Okay.

Should be, asterisk, maybe, hopefully.

Yes.

All right.

The good ones are.

Anyway.

But it's so, for what makes a, this was not even an idea for me, but for this conversation,

but what makes a church for church?

Like you alluded to a little bit there, community.

What's your, what's your minimum ecclesiology these days?

It's pretty simple.

So I have three components.

Jesus.

So I was going to say Jesus-centered community, right?

It's, it's people who have a sense of belonging both to one another and to Jesus on mission.

So Jesus-centered community on his mission together.

That's church.

Wow.

Jesus-centered community on mission.

And, um, you know, Craig is, is a supporter of digital church planting.

I know that.

And so, but I'm, I'm happy to say every one of those you can very easily do.

Yep.

Digitally.

Yeah.

And, and, and for me, just, I mean, you understand this, Jeff, you know, the reason I'm a supporter

of digital church planting is because that's my ecclesiology, right?

Right.

I don't, I didn't adapt my ecclesiology to digital church planting.

I had an ecclesiology and looked at digital church, but I said, yeah, it, it, it fits.

It's all three of those things.

So why, why couldn't, or why wouldn't we consider that church?

Um, there's nothing in that definition that requires physical space.

Love it.

Let's, uh, let's, let's pull the thread here and let's, let's get into a little bit here.

Now, what I wanted to talk about was, was calling or spiritual calling.

And so we're, we're talking about, uh, planters or missionaries that are, um, engaging in

work, um, or that have a calling to a particular people, place, location, uh, something like

what, what exactly is calling Craig?

So, I mean, just don't really think about it, you know, calling in the scripture goes

all the way back.

Really the first person in scripture who's called is Noah, right?

Noah, God calls Noah to build an ark.

And we've got Abraham and Moses and Joshua and David.

And we just, like, there's all these, you know, people through the old Testament that God calls.

Um, and we get in the new Testament, Jesus calls his disciples, Jesus, you know, um, there's

the calling of the, uh, what we sometimes call the deacons, but the people in, um, the Jerusalem

church and then Saul and Timothy.

And so, you know, calling is not this thing we made up.

It's all throughout scripture.

What I do think is interesting is, um, that some calling in scripture is supernatural.

Right.

Moses saw a burning bush and talked to God.

Um, I have never seen a burning bush that didn't burn up and, you know, had that kind

of conversation with God.

That was a supernatural experience that, um, Moses had, uh, with God.

Now people, you know, if you're a cessationist, this won't work, but I think people still have

those kinds of experiences.

I don't think God's done calling people in that way, but I think what we miss, because

sometimes I think we sit around waiting for that supernatural thing to happen.

And what we miss is that there is also a kind of calling of scripture that's relational.

The 12 apostles were not called supernaturally.

They were called relationally.

Jesus walked up to them face to face, had a conversation with them and said, Hey, would

you follow me?

You know, Peter and, uh, Andrew and James and John, Hey, I'm calling you to get up fishing

for fish to go fish for men.

That was their calling, but it didn't happen supernaturally.

It happened relationally.

And so I think that that's very much a part of almost what's missing.

Like, why aren't we constantly calling people into mission in a relational way?

Um, and so I don't know if that answers all of your questions, but, you know, so that's,

that's kind of calling.

I think the thing that I wrote about that you saw was talking about kind of how do you help

someone clarify their calling and really sort of these three ideas of a people, a purpose

and a part to play.

A purpose and a, and a part for them to play.

Yep.

So unpack that.

Well, people's probably the easiest part to understand, right?

You feel called to a people or a place.

And then we go back to, uh, well, uh, maybe step a little bit back.

Um, as human beings, our identity matters, right?

And whether your identity comes from, you know, where you were born, the circumstance you were

born into the people you're born, whether it comes from things that you've chosen for

yourself, you know, we all live out an identity.

And so, you know, when a person is called, maybe you're called to a geography, maybe,

you know, in your case, you think about digital platforms, but I think the bigger question

is to think about the identity of those people that you're called to.

How do they see themselves?

And then say, okay, I'm called to those people who see themselves this way.

Um, I mean, I, you know, brew pastor's on here, right?

You know, his calling is to the kind of people who hang out in brew problems and breweries,

right?

I can, I can relate to that.

I love what, yeah, I love what he's doing, right?

Well, there's, there really is an identity, like, you know, there's the person that sort

of hangs there, you know, every now and then, but there are people who like, that's their

identity, like their, their life centers around that.

Well, if you're going to be a missionary and a church planter among them, you've got to

understand that identity.

And you probably, that's where calling comes in, uh, you know, for, I'm sure for Joe,

we'd be able to talk about that.

Like, you know, there's a sense of that's who I'm called to.

But I think the second two pieces are important.

Like, what's the purpose?

And so I think that's important to recognize God doesn't call everyone to plant a church.

There's a sense in which he calls everyone to make it disciples.

But let's not forget Matthew 25, right?

I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink, naked and you clothed me,

in prison you came to visit me, sick, right?

And so I think sometimes the purpose people are called to is sort of fix something that's

broken in the world that has a very negative impact on people's lives.

I have a really good friend here who's just called to meeting the needs of unhoused population.

Like, that's just, that's what he feels called to.

Now, he's interested in making disciples amongst those people, but you can't, you can't have,

you can't feel called to make disciples of unhoused people and not care about the fact

that they're unhoused, right?

So, so you, so, so what's the part that you play?

What's in sort of the, kind of the, the purpose, how do you know that you're fulfilling

the work that you're doing?

The second thing I would say, or that's the purpose.

And then the second thing is the part to play.

So, not everyone is called to be a pioneer or an apostle, right?

Apostles start stuff.

But what if, you know, you're gifting as a teacher?

Um, you might, your part to play might be as part of a team where you teach.

What if it's pastoring or shepherding?

It might be as a part of, you know, you might, you might not be a leader.

So again, I think there's a disservice that we have in the way we've thought of calling that

a person who's called is always somehow this point person leader kind of person.

Um, I don't think that that's, that's not the case.

Um, I mean, even if you think of Jesus, you know, the 12 people that Jesus called, you

know, other than a couple of them, you know, a lot of them sort of disappear after his resurrection.

Now we have history and things that tells us about things they did, but, you know, Peter

became the leader of the church in Jerusalem, not all 12 of them.

Um, and so, because Peter had those gifts, that's, that's, that's what he was called to

do.

We can't assume that the others failed in their calling.

They had just different gifts, different roles to play, different purposes to accomplish.

Um, and so I think when you, if you understand those three things is where you really get

to, and really even this idea that everyone is, can be, and is called to something.

Um, and the question is, do you know what those three things are for yourself?

You, you do, you think that everyone that's interesting, Craig, I don't know that I would

have gone there.

Everyone has a calling.

So, yeah, I mean, um, I think, you know, every person's created for a purpose, right?

Um, we're, we're not accidents.

We're created, you know, we all are who we are by design.

Um, we're all gifted.

Um, you know, each one's given a gift for the common good, right?

We're all given a gift that is part of serving the community, serving the mission.

And I think when you put all of those things together and you input circumstance, I think,

yeah, I think there is, every person has a unique part to play in the kingdom of God.

And maybe that's not the way we typically think of calling, but I think that unique part

is your calling.

Yeah, I just, I mean, everybody has a, has a purpose.

I understand that.

I just, I had not reconciled that over in my head that, that everybody has a calling.

That's, um, poetic.

Almost.

You, you, you, you should, you should write the, uh, the, uh, the sequel to Rick Warren's

purpose-driven life.

You know, like your, your, uh, purpose, uh, was it calling, calling driven mission work,

something or other money just flying, flying into your pocket right now, just thinking about

it.

Um, all right.

So you need to understand the people that you're called to.

I mean, that was some of what we're, we're, we're alluding to, uh, now, you know, with,

with the church digital, we, uh, we have a unique approach and we, we talked about this

offline a little bit.

It's this idea is, is platforms as places.

Um, the idea that, uh, you know, the way a normal missions agency looks at Korea, China,

India, Brazil, this is how we're going to look at Twitch, Discord, Mighty Networks, Facebook,

Instagram, TikTok, and we're going to equip and mobilize people, uh, and send them out

to be on mission in these spaces, whether that's to, to plant a church or whether that's

to, to be a missionary that's working with alongside other churches in that space.

Um, it's interesting, uh, globally, people love the idea here in the U S. Uh, it's been

a little bit of a controversial take, if I could say the least, I'm curious platforms

as places, what's your, what's your take on that, Craig?

I don't have, I mean, I don't, I have zero issue with it, uh, but I would actually sort

of move beyond that, um, in, in what I was just talking about with identity.

So, uh, why is platform places sort of as places, why is that true instead of whether

or not you're sort of arguing, is it true?

Uh, and so geography is to a large extent, isn't something we choose.

Um, you know, I live in Northern California.

I was born in the Bay area.

I have traveled all over the world, but I have never other than, well, I should say the

farthest I've ever lived from where I was born is about 500 miles.

Cause I went to college in Southern California, I live in my college years.

I've lived within 200, almost a hundred miles of 200 miles of the place where I was born

my whole life, even though I've traveled the world, right?

I've lived, how did that happen?

Well, it's cause that's where my parents lived.

I didn't choose that.

Um, and so how much of my identity is wrapped up in my geography, right?

Now, for some people, it might be a big deal, right?

That the way they think of themselves may have a lot to do with the place where they were

born, sort of the, the geography that they received at birth.

But I think where you come into the platforms is, you know, I could live in, you know, whatever,

Thailand and I don't care about Thailand, but you know, I'm a part of a Twitch community

or a discord community.

Like those are my people.

Right.

And so I think that's the reality of digital space in, in really maybe more generationally.

So someone who's younger than I am, but I think even people of my own generation, my brother

is 12 years older than I am.

He's in his seventies and he and his wife are a part of a virtual church.

Really?

This is not something that is limited to young people.

I'd love that.

Can you tell me their story?

I'd love to hear more about that.

I mean, I mean, we, they, we helped us plan a church.

Um, you know, our dad was a pastor.

Um, he was a technology guy, worked for Hewlett Packard Agilent for his whole career.

Um, did a lot of stuff in software.

Um, and, um, but yeah, they've just hit a season of life where, um, they made a decision

to engage with a virtual church.

Um, and so, um, you know, they, you know, attend church online, have a small group that

they lead.

Um, but it's a virtual community.

You have the members of their small group are spread out all across the U S and I think

they actually have a couple of people now that aren't even in the U S.

Um, so, uh, anyway, um, where was I going?

So, so that question of identity comes into play, right?

And so, you know, if I'm, you know, if I feel called to a city, there's not a problem

with that.

I'm not, not against that, but I'm sort of the, the circumstances that causes people to

live at the city then determines the people that sort of I'm called to reach, but why can't

I just as easily be called to reach people who, um, have already sort of created a community

for themselves.

And in this case, in a virtual space and probably for many of those people, again, that identity

is of greater importance to them than the physical place they happen to live.

And I'm sure if somebody has data on this, you know, I could be part of, and you pick any

of the platforms, yeah, I can be a part of a community there.

I might move hundreds of thousands of miles away from my home, but guess what doesn't

happen?

My virtual community doesn't change.

Yeah.

Right?

Because that's my, my higher identity.

Now the flip side is true.

Some people might move from one city to the next and sort of their identity and their community

does change because their identity is more tied to their physical space than to a virtual

space.

So I wouldn't want to argue that one's better or more, I'm just, it's just, if you think

of it through that identity lens, you just sort of have to acknowledge, well, it's a

it's an either or both and it's not, it's just not one is and one isn't.

So that's to me when you say platforms as, as places, I just sort of jumped through that

really almost through the place piece to just the identity question.

What's your identity?

Yeah.

Who do you think of as your primary community?

Um, and if it's your neighborhood, well, then that's probably where you're going to meet

Jesus.

But if it's your Twitch or your discord community, that's probably where you're going to meet

Jesus.

Cause you don't talk to anybody in your neighborhood, your physical neighborhood.

So yeah, it's been, it's been interesting.

Like even the, no, I appreciate that.

The, the platforms as places language, um, we've actually started adjusting it, I guess

is the right word.

Like, you know, we were, we were test shopping it when we were in Korea and, um, uh, had some

good feedback, uh, from, uh, from our leadership and from some others in the space that we were,

um, we were losing the, you know, platforms as places that we were losing the people, um,

out of that.

And so like, it was, we were made it more about the technology than, than about like what you're

talking about the, the identity.

And, uh, and, and so we, we started wrestling with the idea of people groups instead of, um,

you know, platforms as people groups trying to re and reinforce the, the, the people aspect,

the, the, the human aspect, the, um, you know, that which so often gets, gets lost in the

technology side, which if, I mean, if you know anything about us, relational calling, relational

evangelism, relational discipleship, like this, these are all the, the, the things that we want

to lean into.

And so that was definitely was not, um, on our, on our front.

Um, what is, when we look at relational calling, how do we get to the place where we have the

relational equity to do something like this?

Like what is, what's needed, what's necessary?

What are the steps?

Does it take time?

Is it right off the bat?

Does it vary per person?

Um, how can we help?

We as missionaries, we as people that want to multiply, um, how can we multiply or help

multiply relational calling?

Yeah.

Um, I think there are, um, again, I'm not a cessation.

I think there are people who have the gift of prophecy.

Um, and sometimes people who have the gift of prophecy almost become the supernatural voice

in human form.

Um, I have a guy that I know here, a pastor, a church planner here in Sacramento, whose church

planning journey, a guy, sort of one of those crazy stories, drug addict, drug dealer,

death's door, um, gets saved and is just trying to stay clean and sober.

And the pastor just walks up to him, puts his hand on his shoulder, looks him in the eye

and says, there's a church inside of you.

Like, where does that come from?

Um, I, but I don't have that kind of gift of prophecy.

I've never claimed to have that kind of gift of prophecy to just walk up to somebody and

say that kind of thing.

Uh, for me, it's always been about relationship and it's always been about, um, recognizing.

And so you watch somebody and you sort of say, you know what, I'm watching the way you're

interacting with people.

You have the gift of teaching.

You have the gift of mercy.

You have the gift of evangelism.

Like, and you see these things that people do.

But what I find is we typically don't call that out.

Right.

And so we don't go to people and say, I watched, I saw what you did.

And this is what I saw.

Now, I think there is, and you sort of asked this question.

I think, do you think there was a kind of relationship that's needed?

Um, I, um, where, why would that person believe me?

Right.

Um, even if I'm saying something positive, now, again, it's kind of different people's

personalities.

I'm that kind of person.

If people compliment me, um, I tend to just sort of shrug it off.

Like I'm my own worst critic, like, yeah, you thought it was great, but here's the five

reasons that it was terrible.

Um, you know, so, uh, but there are people I trust enough that when they tell me, Hey,

you did, you did something really good.

I'm like, Hmm, I should pay attention.

Um, cause I trust, I trust them, you know, relationally.

And so I think there is a certain relationships that's needed.

And I think especially when it comes, and this will sound a little bit strange, is almost

like pushing people a little bit, if that makes any sense.

So, um, and I have friends, people, you know, where you see something in them and you see

this potential of gifting and think, man, they, what they could do in the industry impact that

they don't see in themselves.

And so you can tell them that like, yeah, and then, and life kind of goes on.

Right.

So, you know, how do you sort of get in their face a little bit and, and, you know, have

again, the quality of relationship to push a little bit and say, Hey, like, I'm not going

to just let this go.

Cause I think this is more than just me.

Right.

I think there's something God's doing and I can't, I can't speak for God against, I don't

claim to have that gift of prophecy, but maybe I would push hard enough to try and

get you to stop long enough to listen to God.

And if you're going to come back and tell me, you know, I prayed about this and like, this

is not God, this is just you.

Okay.

But how, how do I get you to do that?

Does that make sense?

Like, how do I get you to slow down enough to pray and to fast and come back and say,

yeah, you know what?

I really did explore this thing you're talking about and I just don't think it's from God.

Okay.

Or yeah, you know what?

I did that and you're right.

Like you're seeing something in me that God put in me and I need to pay more attention.

And that requires relationship, right?

That, that, that's not, anyway, and it requires more than just a little bit of relationship

to really be able to, um, kind of come alongside someone and, and motivate them to really dive

deep into who did God create you to be and what did God make you to do?

Totally.

And in digital space, it requires intentionality with that relationship.

Like to get that level of relationship digitally, it's not easy.

I, I would honestly tell you the same thing is it's really not that different.

It's true in, in, you know, whatever physical, you know, relationships as well.

And these are not conversations that happen by accident.

Does that make sense?

Like, I don't, I don't just happen to be sitting around whatever, shooting the breeze with a

friend.

I mean, typically this is, you know, a planned conversation, right?

I've seen this.

And so I call you or I text you and let's have coffee or let's, you know, you know, in

virtual space to be, Hey, let's get on a chat.

Let's, you know, it doesn't, you can try and slip these conversations into some other

thing that's happening, but that's not how they're best had with intentionality and with

purpose one-on-one.

Um, and yeah, you can do that in digital space just as well as you can do that in physical

space.

But, but the intentionality is required in both environments.

That's, that's good.

That's good.

Um, so how do I know if I'm called to digital, to physical, to a people group, to a location?

What is the, is it peace of mind?

Do I get a little halo over my head?

Um, like what, what happens to, to, to let me know that I have recognized my calling?

So this is sort of funny.

Um, this weird phrase, um, if you remember this, um, in Paul's calling, why are you kicking

against the goads?

You remember that?

No.

No.

Yeah.

So it's, it's this, it's in the scripture where it's like, you know, it's basically

sort of God saying, Hey, like, I'm, I'm trying to get you to go this way and, and you're resisting.

Right.

And so, um, I really think that sort of the, uh, whatever the, the best evidence of calling.

I mean, obviously prayer, fasting, wise counsel, like all those kinds of things.

But I think when you get to the point where you say, yeah, I'm not going to do that, but

when, and, but then as you say that, or as you sort of do that, there's just this inner

sense of I'm sinning, I'm, I'm going against God.

I think that's when you've found like, you got to pay, pay, pay attention.

I go, I think God was really trying to tell me to do something.

If I can walk away from it and it doesn't bother me and it doesn't bother my conscience

and it doesn't bother the Holy spirit.

Doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

So I want to be really, really careful.

It might've still been a good idea, but nothing wrong with actually doing it, but it probably

wasn't a call.

Hmm.

It was optional.

I don't think callings are optional.

Interesting.

The, um, so unset stomach, uneasy rest, uh, unrest, um, lamenting the loss.

Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, that's.

Yeah.

I've worked with church planners.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've worked with church planners for decades.

Um, there's, and again, that's where a lot of it, like, I can't prove my sort of three

things from scripture.

A lot of this just comes from experience of working with hundreds of church planners.

Um, and always the things that I would look for.

One is the people.

And so I used to always be like, and even in digital face, let's, so someone, it's even

your, your, your, your tension of platform is place.

People like if someone comes and they're telling me all about the Twitch or discord, like whatever

the play, you know, VR, and I'm going to start and all they're talking about is the technology.

They're not called.

Right.

God, God doesn't call people to technology.

God calls people to people.

Now when they come and that's the, you know, like they know that space, but who they're talking

about are all the people they know in that space that don't know Jesus.

That's the first sign that somebody is called.

I don't care what the technology is.

I care that there's people there that you care enough about to, to make, go to extreme

effort to try and introduce them to Jesus.

That's the beginning of a calling.

Then we sort of have those other two questions of, okay, what, what, what's your purpose?

Is it evangelism?

Is it discipleship?

You know, are you forming a church, right?

Is there a clarity about what your purpose is?

Okay, that's great.

Now what's your part to play?

What's your role going to be?

So you sort of work through those things with someone.

Um, I've got a lot of time.

I forgot what you were asking, you were asking something.

I totally forgot.

I started ranting on that.

Um, but, um, I just think that's where that clarity comes from.

And, and I think it applies regardless of digital physical.

So I just don't see them as different people are people.

Um, and if you're called to people, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

What is the thing that, that makes a community or an identity of those people?

Uh, if you're called to people, it doesn't matter what makes the community.

Um, you know, it's, we would always talk about, you know, relationships are real because the

people are real.

Digital relationships are real because the physical people behind the digital are real.

And, uh, and so you're, you're alluding to that even here with this, this conversation, this is so good.

Yeah, I don't, so I, but I would just use this to sort of validate that.

I, I'm not a part of any specific virtual community, but I have friends that I would absolutely consider to be friends that I have never met in person face-to-face.

Hmm.

How's that possible?

So if it's possible to have friends without meeting them face-to-face, why isn't it possible to have community without meeting face-to-face?

That, that's, for me, that's sort of the validation of that.

You know, I'm not the anti-technology or anti-virtual community person, but, you know, even as someone who doesn't necessarily live in that or, or, or operate there, I just look at that, that individual example in my own life and go, it has to be possible or else I wouldn't be able to have friends there.

Yeah, that's good.

Um, talk to us, talk to us, talk to us a little bit, um, naysayers, doubters, critics, um, the, the, the people that are, are, are questioning or are critical towards this philosophy, um, of digital calling, um, you know, has to be with a physical or it cannot be called to, to a technology.

How do we, how would we respond?

How would we, uh, react in some of those situations?

What do you advise?

So I'm going to repeat a phrase that I learned from one of my mentors.

Go with the goers.

The time spent now, don't be rude.

Don't, don't, like, don't do something sinful in your response by what I'm about to say.

But just, it's a waste of time and energy.

Um, go with the goers.

Um, there are obviously people who do think you can do ministry here, who are doing ministry here, who can help you and encourage you to do ministry here.

Go with them.

Um, and, and, and by the way, I guess I would say this, like, noisers aren't limited to virtual space.

Like, like, right?

So, so don't get hung up on that, right?

There's always someone who thinks some new way of doing things is a bad idea.

Um, and there will always be that.

Um, so just go with the goers.

It just, it's not, um, and I think the, you got to be clear in your own convictions, right?

You've got to be able to, in a certain sense, you do have to be able to explain to someone why you think this is biblical and, you know, spirit filled and all of those things.

But if, if you're good with your answer, it doesn't matter if someone else isn't good with your answer.

Um, because if you, it's sort of like, if you really go down that path, you're going to spend your whole life answering critics rather than doing mission.

Um, it's just that, that, unless somehow you think that's what you're called to, just go with the goers.

Just go do mission.

Yeah, I've, I've probably have spent too much time in my life, um, battling the, battling the critics and having those conversations.

And, and to be honest, in 24, I'm kind of tired of it.

And so even hearing your advice to go with the goers, uh, I was trying to think, I think the first time I heard that phrase was when I was at stadia.

Uh, and so I don't know if you were the one that said it or somebody else in there, but, um.

So actually, it's a long, long story that we won't go over here.

That individual who was one of my mentors was the executive director of the organization that became stadia.

He's the person that called me into church planning, was the pastor of the church that I grew up in.

Um, there's a long, long history there.

So that phrase has a lot of roots at stadia.

You could have heard it from somebody else, but you liked it from me.

Yeah, it was, um, yeah, I heard it within, on a, on a leadership call.

Um, I'm trying to think who said it, but I'm sure it's all, it's all intertwined in there.

Go with the goers.

I like that.

Um, you know, our, the battlefields for us is the mission field.

You know, that's, that's what, what I'll say.

It's like, I'm, I'm just coming from a guy who spent COVID picking fights and, and addressing those battles.

Um, you know, in, in, in fighting, even when I didn't want to, people were coming up to me and fighting.

Um, oh yeah, there was, I mean, there was a situation in Korea.

Somebody came up and, and wanted to pick a fight.

Um, I won't, I won't get into it, but, um, you know, it's interesting.

The battle really is never about you.

Um, in this situation, the guy in Korea that was, um, that was picking a fight with me on

digital church, cause he didn't feel like digital community was worthy of a church.

Uh, he worked for a Christian book publishing company and, um, who's struggling right now?

Maybe worse than churches, uh, book publishers, uh, are.

And so, you know, I'll, I'll be, I'm the digital community guy, by the way, you still own a

Christian bookstore.

So I can feel the guy's pain.

Um, but when, um, when, when he's, when he's yelling at me, I'm like, this guy's not yelling

at me.

It's, it's nothing about Jeffrey personally towards that.

So, Hey, um, Craig, I would love to get your feedback on something.

Um, so we have a, a mobilization process.

We're starting to roll out.

And you know what?

I don't even think we've really have talked about this much with, um, with, with the church

digital.

And so some of them may be the first time they're really hearing this where we're really

just putting it out now where, where, what we're trying to do is we are trying to get

in some of the, your identity and calling.

And some of this is going to get, uh, wrapped up.

And I've been asking you a specific question, uh, cause I want your take on it.

Um, we're trying to equip and to mobilize people.

Our framework is the people we connect to.

We want to invite into a community.

And right now the church digital, we have two communities in discord and WhatsApp.

And within those communities, we build relationship, establish trust, uh, discipleship, you know,

just get that, uh, even evangelism.

Uh, if you're a missionary level, church digital is not necessarily, uh, but the ultimate purpose

is, is to equip people, uh, and then to, to, to find their calling, to equip them.

And then mobilize them and send them out.

Um, now for mobilization, we've, we've started what we call outposts, uh, where we, we find

people that are doing digital ministry that can multiply what they're doing, that can mentor,

that can apprentice others in that space.

And, and so what we do centralized for equipping is more about the, the theological and the,

the tactical, the more of the, the theology and the strategy, uh, of what the call of what

their, their mission is.

But then the, the practicality, the, the technical aspects of that, you know, we, we send that out

to the field with the, the experts to be hands-on.

So there's been a interesting conversation among leadership.

Uh, I would love your take on this where, uh, like right now we have, and this gets back

to the people groups versus, uh, uh, platforms, uh, like we've got Simon who's in, uh, Germany,

who's leading one of our networks and, and, and we're bringing on, uh, Abby in India.

And we're working with Topay in Africa and, uh, you know, uh, you know, I can rattle off a whole

bunch of other different places, Adrian and Oceania, um, like where these are people that

are digitally savvy, digital friendly, understand digital church, digital discipleship, uh, but

they're into a physical location.

And so we've been breaking that apart.

Um, and, and some of us are starting to question the people groups and instead wanting to push

more towards platforms, uh, because platforms are, are, um, outside of location.

Like I can be engaged with somebody on discord, regardless of where they live.

Like, why am I going to limit my reach by, by a people or a people group?

Um, I know you're coming in from the outside and this is, you know, I'm asking a deep question

right off here, but what, like, as we're looking at multiplying this out and mobilizing people

out, um, grouping them into, uh, into people groups or via platforms, do you, do you have

a, a, a, a preference on that or an opinion?

I don't, I think it's hard.

I'm not, I'm, I don't know how to a certain extent, obviously people groups are the priority,

but I think there's a dynamic, which it's hard to separate the people groups from the platform.

Right.

So if I'm a person who, and again, I just think, well, I should say there'll be plenty of people

who sort of live cross, you know, cross platform, right?

They're on multiple platforms.

They have relationships on multiple platforms, but there will also be many people who sort

of, um, have prioritized a platform.

Like that's prime, even though they might go to some other platforms, like this, this is

the platform that's my home.

And this is where I hang out, where I know the most people, you know, where I prioritize

my time.

And so I, I think, and again, you're probably more of an expert, but I do sort of think there's

a dynamic in which even if you focus on people groups, that doesn't, that doesn't make any

particular effort platform agnostic, um, in digital space.

It's hard, like, as a, like at the highest sort of what's our mission level, sure, you can

be platform agnostic, right?

And say, hey, we want to make disciples of all people.

So, you know, our, our big mission at the church digital isn't just about Twitch or discord

or, you know, WhatsApp or whatever, but when you think about particular ministries, I mean,

I guess you could, and again, I, you know, more than I do, you could have a ministry or something

that sort of is cross platform, you know, we use WhatsApp for this, we use this for the,

I don't know.

Uh, but I, I, I think if I'm, and I think this is always probably the question, if I'm thinking

through the lens or the filter of the person who is not following Jesus, right?

And that is a missionary, that's what you're supposed to do, then a missionary goes to where

they are.

And I think that's where, even though your focus is of people, it's hard to be platform agnostic

because you're going to have to be on a platform to meet them.

It's just, it just is what it is.

And it's sort of like, if I want to meet somebody who lives in, you know, I don't know, Kalamazoo,

I'm probably going to have to travel to Cal.

It's just, you know, geographic space requires that you be in that space to reach people in

that space.

Um, I don't know, I just, I don't know that, I don't know that you can pull those apart.

I do think that people groups are the priority.

I think that that's sort of where that sort of the technology piece comes in.

If I become over enamored with a particular technology, I'm probably not thinking about

making disciples of people.

Um, but even when I'm thinking of making disciples with people, I may quickly discover those

people are on this platform.

And so that's what becomes my priority.

Yeah.

You know, it's, it's interesting.

I, I, I would tell the story, like in, in my twenties, I was obsessed with, with technology

and, um, just like, uh, and, and really love technology for technology's sake.

Um, and, and, and I've worked for a church that was using technology.

Like, and so, you know, I don't know that that's, I'm, don't hear me being critical.

That's not, that's not a, that's not a bad thing.

Yeah.

In, in my, in my thirties, um, you know, I started recognizing relationships through the

technology and started, um, gaining, uh, traction and doing ministry with people utilizing

the technology.

Like it stopped being about the technology and it became more about, about the people.

And it, and it's funny, like, and now in my forties, that's only been magnified, of course,

to the church digital.

Um, like I, I run an AVL company.

I still get people texting me all the time, asking me basic AVL questions that I no longer

have a clue on because I have, I've been out of that game for a decade plus, but people

think that, you know, I still am.

And, and, you know, just yesterday, somebody was looking for something.

I was like, let me connect you with my friend, Garrett.

Garrett can help you with that.

And, you know, Garrett.

You remember that that's part of my background, right?

I did concert audio back in the days when there was no digital.

I walk in and I look at an audio, you know, concert audio set up, but I just shake my head

like, I have no idea.

You got no, no clue, but, uh, yeah, you've got quite the record player behind you.

I see that, you see that looming in the background behind you.

I can't see it on my screen, but yes, my audio rig is behind me with all the vinyl, the audio,

the audio rig with the vinyl.

Um, but it really, it does come down to, you know, I, I, part of this calling is, is recognizing

it's not technology for technology's sake and, and it's, and it's feeling called to the people

you can reach through the technology.

And I, I would say, suggest that's the difference in the digital missionaries is because now we

get the opportunity to, um, to reach and engage people missionally, um, through the technology

that we may not be able to have access to in, in other ways.

And so, yeah, it's, it's technology for people's sake.

That, that, that's for people's sake.

Yeah.

It's technology for people's sake.

And if you go backwards through history, you'll quickly discover that this is nothing new, right?

What was the first thing that Gutenberg printed?

The Bible, the, the letters, the Bible, right?

He printed the Bible.

Um, you know, how did missionaries end up in China and Africa?

Ships could cross the ocean, right?

Like, we don't, see, we get, we come forward and we don't think of that as technology.

Yeah.

But it was.

Yeah.

Billy Graham did all sorts of stuff as, as a radio, uh, radio and massive innovation.

And then, and then he was criticized so much for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Television, um, technology.

And so technology is just, I was reading something that's just actually, I finished reading a book over the weekend.

And one of the, Arthur made the argument that basically was saying, uh, you know, so like I would say about money, technology is neutral.

It's neither good nor bad.

And almost any technology can be used to accomplish either thing.

Right.

Money can be used good for money can be used for evil.

You take any of the digital platforms that any of your people are working on.

I guarantee there are people who are using those platforms for evil.

That doesn't make the platform evil.

It makes the people who are doing those things.

It makes it like, right.

Because you can just as easily use the same platform for good.

So that's the sense in which I would be platform agnostic because it's just technology for the sake of people.

It's always about the people.

So good.

All right.

Hey, Craig, this has been awesome.

And I want to give a shout out here.

Uh, Phantom Methos, uh, you have, uh, yes, you have to know the platform culture and meet people where they are.

That's not what I was looking for up above that.

Sorry.

Remember, you don't have to start something new on your own.

You can always join something existing, uh, that is, uh, starving for help.

Uh, and so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's part of the community that we want through TCD.

Go ahead, Craig.

That might be your calling.

Interesting.

Unpack that.

Well, um, God didn't gift everyone to be an apostle.

So if you assume that calling is for people who sort of fulfill apostolic roles, that just doesn't, it doesn't really fly.

I mean, truthfully, you know, Timothy was not called to be an apostle.

Paul was the apostle.

Timothy was a pastor and teacher.

Paul sent him to churches that Paul had started to teach and shepherd people there.

See, so that's, it's knowing what you're, what you're calling is, right?

I mean, cause you're called to be an apostle.

You're called to be a, yeah.

Yeah.

It's beautiful.

Awesome.

Craig, I've appreciated this time, man.

It's, it's always good.

We need, we need to do this more often.

Um, I've missed the past couple exponentials.

So I feel like I haven't seen you in a, in a stretch, but, uh,

if you're coming down here to South Florida, we should, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll drive up to where you are, man.

Let me, let me buy you a coffee or something.

Yeah.

I'll shoot you.

Um, when I've got, I've still got some availability, so I'll shoot you sometimes when we get together.

Sounds, sounds good.

As we're, we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts?

Um, you know, I think I would say this just because, you know, be, be encouraged.

You know, it, it is sort of easy when you're doing something new and different to be discouraged by the naysayers.

Um, and it's just, it, it's easy, but it's the wrong place to look.

You know, be encouraged, uh, by what you sense God calling you to do and be encouraged by the fruit that comes from your ministry.

Ultimately, that's sort of the, that's the ultimate evidence that, that God's using this.

And so, you know, focus there.

Um, just be encouraged.

Don't be discouraged.

And, um, awesome.

Well, Craig, thanks for taking the time, jumping on the podcast and, uh, and encouraging us here.

Uh, it's been, been a lot of fun, uh, digging into this topic on digital calling.

We'll have more digital missionary topics coming up.

Dr.

John's coming up next week.

Um, uh, I, I, I think we're talking a pest, you know, well, it duck John's involved.

We'll talk some a pest and some other things I'm sure as well, but, uh, but stay tuned.

And so for, uh, for Craig, uh, this is Jeff, uh, with the church digital.

Thanks for hanging out with us here on the pod.

We'll see you next time on the show.

Y'all be good.