EP 328 - Questions - Laura Howe answers "How am I emotionally present for people, digitally?"

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

I did not have a good tech check today.

I was actually having a conversation with Nazarene Seminary, Nazarene Theological Seminary,

and oh my gosh, it was so good.

It was so good.

I love when people's eyes get opened up to the idea of digital ministry.

And Leighton and I jumped on this call with maybe 15 seminary students.

We've got a couple Asbury College students going through equipping digital missionaries right now.

And just like, oh my gosh, I think I made a girl cry on a seminary student cry today.

As she was realizing how her calling actually aligns with digital and how she's able to scale this digitally because she couldn't afford to do this physically.

Yeah, Leighton's jumping on the stream already.

It was fun.

Oh my gosh, that was the most fun that I've had.

I mean, it's Tuesday, but it's the most fun I've had this week.

Like, it was really cool.

And so, hey, welcome to The Church Digital.

We've got a really interesting conversation coming up today.

My name is Jeff Founder of The Church Digital.

This is episode 328.

I'm really bad at numbers.

You know, we've been doing these for so long.

I don't even know why we do numbers anymore.

Like, it all just, it all runs together.

I remember the first maybe five or seven episodes, but after then, it's just like random conversations.

And so, really looking forward to this conversation.

I, you know, Leighton's talking about it was a good cry of, wow, it can happen, how this woman was like realizing the ministry potential.

And I'll be honest, like, I think today we're going to see some, you know, I may cry here a little bit as we're dealing with the mental health capacity of digital ministry here.

And we met Laura Howe, who's with Hope May Strong.

And so, I'm going to push my magic button here and hopefully Laura pops on the screen.

There she is.

Laura Howe!

So, I don't know.

Aha!

We made it!

That's awesome.

Welcome to the chaos of The Church Digital.

Laura, I did not, and I'll own this, we'll probably edit this out, but I did not, I did not have an accurate tech check today and was not able to walk Laura through.

And so, I apologize for the past five minutes because that was not good.

But, Laura, thanks for jumping on here with us.

I'm so excited.

So excited to have this conversation with y'all.

Okay.

So, I was, what I was asking to you, this is the first time you've been on a stream or, like, you were not able with The Giving Tuesday.

And so, this is the first time you've, like, ever been on a stream with us, right?

It is.

It is, yeah.

I love this.

So, Laura Howe has made a huge impact with The Church Digital behind the scenes in the past month.

And her organization, Hope May Strong.

I'm really looking forward to this mental health conversation.

We're talking about being emotionally present.

And so, but, Laura, as we're kicking off here at the beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tell us your story.

Hope May Strong.

Take a couple minutes.

Give us some background on who you are.

Well, my name's Laura, and I hail from a small town in Canada.

So, you might hear my Canadian accent come out, and I'm going to start off by apologizing for that, because that's what we are known for.

No, I'm joking.

Canadian bacon.

Oh, bacon, right.

Yeah, there you go.

Maple syrup, bacon.

Maple syrup, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And my background is a mental health social worker.

So, spent 15 years in crisis, addictions, housing, case management, and counseling all around mental health and supporting those in my local community.

And then switched over to saying, oh, my goodness, the church can do better.

The church needs to do better in the space of mental health.

And so, started building content and resources and connecting with like-minded people who are just stepping up and saying, we need to train and equip the church to do better in the conversation around mental health.

So, started Hope Made Strong with the support and guidance of a dear friend.

I think she is a familiar face or voice in the church digital space, Barbara Cardinero.

And since then, launched the Church Mental Health Summit, which is a digital event that reaches the world with the best practices, tools, and resources, all focused on equipping the local church, ministry leaders, and those who care in their churches.

So, honored to be here, honored to connect and be of service and support and wade through some difficult questions and have conversations.

No, I love that.

It's going to be a good conversation.

You know, up front, one of the areas that we really wanted to focus on with the Church Digital this year has been mental health.

And, you know, some of the addictive – I mean, we operate, we do ministry in potentially addictive spaces.

And, you know, I just – I say this over and over again.

What does the armor of God look like digitally?

What does the armor of God look like in the metaverse?

What's the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith?

You know, I can never remember what the foot thing is, the sandals.

But, you know, how do we –

Truth, thank you.

No, sort of truth.

Sort of truth.

Yeah, no.

Sort of truth, yeah.

Maybe it's peace or something.

I – forgive me.

I'm not as good with the – and I need to spend more time on it.

But, you know, how do we – how do we utilize those tools digitally?

I mean, I can just roll off stats, but – and it was funny.

Even in the conversation today, I don't know if you heard, but the reason I'm late with all this was we were –

Leighton and I were talking to a seminary, Nazarene Seminary, Nazarene Theological Seminary, like 14, 15 students.

And, you know, one of the questions they said is, well, what is – how do you handle addictive situations?

Like, is there an opportunity for addictive to engage?

And, you know, that has been an area that we really wanted to focus on with the ministry and working behind the scenes right now with several different ministries on how to handle that situation.

You know, this is not what I want to talk about today, but I just want to say this.

You know, Barna came out with some stats a while back.

61% of Americans are addicted to porn.

30% are doing it in private.

There's no reason to thank the stats.

And that was – I'm sure those stats reported are actually worse than it is.

And if they're doing it in private, by the way, that means they know it's wrong.

And so how do they – how do we address the fact that they know that it's wrong and there's an opportunity to correct that?

And so it's – one of the things that we're really wrestling with is how to address that.

And so I went to a nationally recognized counseling center that does online counseling.

And I was like, hey, how do we solve this problem?

And this counselor, the CEO of this organization, told me, well, Jeff, we can really handle six more people.

Like 61% of America is addicted to porn and the sex addiction organization, nationally recognized, can only handle six more people before they're at max capacity, like one guy and five women.

And I was like, well, can you give our counselors?

And he's like, we can't do it.

There's no more.

And so, like, we're really starting to wrestle with, okay, how do we scale this?

How do we get this down to a lower level, the more manageable?

Where even individuals, even normies, even missionaries can start to address and treat that.

Triage – triage is a bad word.

I saw – I apologize.

I'm not allowed to say triage anymore.

Laura's told me that and really get into that.

But what Laura has done, and Stacey Knapp as well, who's the chaplain for the Church Digital, has really started to open my eyes on how to address some of these issues.

And you're going to see some major things rolling out of the Church Digital very soon.

And Laura's influence with Hope Made Strong.

And it was funny.

We were endorsing the Mental Health Summit without even knowing Laura.

Like, you know, I knew people that were speaking at it, and we were pushing people that way.

And then, you know, I met Laura one day, and she's through Barbara.

And she's like, oh, yeah.

Yeah, I do the conference.

I was like, oh, my gosh.

That's awesome.

I love the summit.

Yeah, it was really cool.

So it's been great to have her on board and kind of helping us process some of the Mental Health stuff.

And Stacey, you know, is a valid – as chaplain for TCD, oh, my gosh.

The two of them together are coming up with some great stuff.

So stay tuned.

That'll be great.

Hey, let's – what we want to talk about, Laura, is being emotionally available digitally.

What it looks like to be emotionally available.

And so let's kind of open the conversation here.

We're talking about questions.

What does it mean to be emotionally available?

How can we be emotionally available digitally?

Maybe let's even tip the hat here a little bit at the beginning.

What does it mean when we're asking to be emotionally available?

Like, not even in digital space.

What does that – what does emotionally available look like?

What are we trying to dig into?

I think that's a – it's a – language you're using, emotionally available, has a lot of assumptions to it, right?

Because emotions for one person is going to be different for – I know it's emotions.

You think happy, sad, angry, you know, hungry.

Is hungry an emotion?

I don't know.

I think it is disgust.

These are emotions, but to be emotionally available is – I think there's – might not understand what that means.

And I come to the table saying emotionally available is being willing to go beyond the surface.

We do a training called the Attune Listener that teaches deep listening skills.

And the acronym that we use is Oceans.

It's actually developed by Dr. Jackie Perry.

And it is – picturing yourself that someone's diving into the deep end of a pool or off the end of a boat.

Being emotionally available is willing to dive in deep rather than just staying on the surface.

It's willing to have the patience to listen to the responses rather than just jump onto the next task or the next to-do list.

And so being emotionally available is willing to hold space or be hospitable in the space.

And I don't mean the physical space, but I mean the moment that you have with that other person so that they can express something that has deeper meaning and deeper impact in their life.

Yeah.

That is – and this is interesting.

I don't know – you know, I'm not a mental health-oriented person.

But the idea of being emotionally available, as you just described it, that's been, I think, one of the challenges for a lot of people that are doing digital ministry.

Where, you know, I've seen – it's very easy to hide behind content.

You know, churches are broadcasting that online service.

And the goal is to try to drive people into the building or try to drive people into a small group or something like that.

And, you know, a lot of times the content, the connections that we have up at that top level are superficial.

And it feels like we need to be more emotionally available to connect with people, to establish that trust, to build them down into the community.

What does – like, how do we start to take steps towards being more emotionally available, towards connecting with people?

Like, not even at a digital level.

Like, even just let's talk superficial physically.

Yeah.

Like, I meet you.

What does it look like to be emotionally available?

I don't want to be like, hey, tell me your deepest, darkest secrets.

What – you know, like, how do we transition?

Oh, we can't do that.

That's just creepy.

Yeah.

We don't want to be that creeper.

Hey, so we got this group together.

We're two in a chair, our deepest, darkest sins.

Why don't you go first?

Yeah.

It's probably not the right way to do that.

But how do we do this?

Yeah.

Well, just think of it as a party.

What would you do in hospitality and every day?

Let's just normalize the awkwardness of human interaction, right?

It is awkward.

It's a little weird.

And so we want to be able to host someone in a friendly way.

We want to set them up so they feel safe, that they feel welcomed, that they feel valued,

that they're there, and that they have something to say.

And you would do that if you were hosting a party at your house or maybe an event.

You would create an environment so that person feels welcomed and that they feel safe.

And I think we want to – and that would be what you would want to do with another – a

friend or a colleague or someone that you just met.

You would want them to feel at ease.

You know, we would want them to feel that they are important, that you are honored to meet

them and that they have something important to say and that they are the focus in that

moment.

They are not just a task or a responsibility that they have to check off the list and move

to something else.

And so, you know, human interaction, there's awkward moments.

And, you know, we often in person play on that, you know, when someone's like trying to shake

the hand or you hug and you do that little dance, you're not quite sure what to do.

You laugh about it.

There's that icebreaker, right?

So let's, you know, we want to be able to create moments like that digitally or even in

person so that people feel safe and welcome.

Yeah, I love that.

Creating a safe, welcome environment, hospitable, asking, you know, and for us digitally, we

really lean towards asking questions more than making statements.

You know, it's not – and this is some of the challenge away from the physical church

mindset where physical church is using digital as a way to tell you what to think, but as

a digital missionary, it's not soapbox, it's relationship.

By the way, you know, interesting, we've got Stacey in the thread on the stream here.

Laura is a gift at TCD and me personally, and so she's the chaplain of TCD.

We've got L. Michelle, one of the coolest people I've ever met, L. Michelle on the stream

as well, L. Michelle is coming on board with TCD to really – I don't know, we've got

to figure out the terms, but almost like chaplain to the metaverse in virtual reality.

Amazing.

And so we're working with L. Michelle.

She's going to be at our digital missionary conference.

She's doing a thing on active listening in virtual reality.

And so I'm really excited.

Hope May Strong, you've got – is it Rebecca?

Rebecca's going to do a couple breakouts in the broadcast side.

And so, like I said, we're investing heavy in the mental health.

Actually, we were – Leighton and I were working with a church lately, and that's not part

of our network, but we were providing some leadership and tangible resources for them.

And one of the pastors remarked that they couldn't believe how concerned and focused we were on

on the mental health aspects, and this church was fried.

And so the importance to kind of restore them and feel that – it's a good feeling to kind

of get in that spot.

So, hey, listen, you – we're listening, right?

I mean, that's the whole bless, you know, begin with prayer, listen, is what we want to do.

And by listening, we start to make ourselves be emotionally available, because by listening,

they're establishing trust with us, right?

Is that what we're saying here?

Yeah, I think that's definitely one way to establish trust is by listening.

Another is to, you know, you say you want to ask questions, and rather than, you know, asking

curious questions, is – you're not asking questions like you're grilling someone or you're

interrogating someone.

You're asking questions to get to know them more.

And if they say something, say, hey, last week I was out doing this.

Oh, I never knew you were into that.

When did you get into – like, feel free to go through those rabbit trails, because they

usually lead to some sort of personal connection, which is that emotional connection.

And so, that's – definitely want to be able to listen and ask curious questions.

And I think questions are so important.

When we talk about active listening in face-to-face contact, we actually avoid asking questions.

And so, because we're so reliant on the physical features.

We're – body language, tone, how someone stands or where their eyes go.

And we lose all of that in the digital space.

And so, how can we – how can we cross that barrier and – and interpret what someone's

saying without being present?

And so, I think learning how to ask good, curious questions is – is really important.

But also, I would say that secondary to reflective answers, questions – you know, if – if someone

walks in and you're – if you walk into a party and someone's drilling you with questions, it

would feel quite intimidating.

You want to be reflective in your answers and make observations.

Whether – maybe it's their handle or maybe it's their profile picture or maybe it's how did you get onto this platform or what do you think of – you know.

So, it's reflective in how they show up more than interrogative, if that makes sense.

That's reflective, open, instead of interrogative.

Yeah.

El-Michelle said questions, not questioning.

Yeah, yeah.

That's true, Michelle.

You know, posture, humility, listening, learning, reflective answers is that.

So, how do we overcome – because you said digitally, like, we don't have the physical interactions or, you know, it's off camera.

Or, you know, in virtual reality, you're looking at an avatar.

You're looking at – how do we – how do we dig into this?

And maybe – is there a way to learn from it, to pick it up in other ways?

Is there a way to – is there a strength to digital that maybe isn't available in physical?

Like, what's your opinion and experience with digitals?

Well, I think El-Michelle and Stacey would be more of the experts in this area because they have a longer experience in the digital space in supporting people.

So, you know, I'm not going to pretend I'm the subject matter expert in that.

However, I think the benefit of being digital is when you are in person, it's easy to hide behind those social cues of the ums and ahs and not really say anything.

And so, it stays surface because the lack of words, but on the digital you're required to use words and so you have an opportunity to go deeper, faster, because you're required to say words.

You have – in order to engage with that person, you are actually having dialogue.

And so, I think there's definitely opportunity in that and paying attention to the details or – and maybe even what someone is not saying versus what they are saying and just being really aware and curious.

I think my favorite word is just being curious.

Pretend you're like an eight-year-old or a five-year-old kid and wanting to know about that individual.

That's good.

We found in virtual reality that people are actually – hiding behind the avatar actually allows for a lot more open conversations.

Yeah.

You know, we actually – in my experience, like, you don't even – asking somebody's name is like the worst thing you can do.

Asking where they live, like, it just – it doesn't – it doesn't happen.

And by, you know, she's like – Michelle's like deeper and faster.

Like, the more that you're able to hide behind that avatar and have that conversation with the avatar, you actually get very deep very fast.

And even in digital context, people seem to be open because – I mean, there's a camera lens right there.

I can be open and honest with you and you're – I mean, you're literally on Canada.

You're practically on the other side of the planet from where I am in Miami, Florida.

Like, there's – you can't judge me behind this.

And so there's oftentimes – there's freedom to be more expressive.

Now, some people lean towards that.

And to be honest, some don't.

Some would – actually, it was interesting.

With the seminary class I was in, there was actually a point where the guy was like, well, is digital – I think digital is better than physical – or physical is better than digital in relationships.

Like, how would he think of that?

And I got – I got a little upset just because I kind of – that's my pain point, just to be honest.

Like, that's like the thing that makes the hair on my neck stand up when people say that.

And so, you know, I got the little chip and kind of went off on him a little bit.

I felt bad.

I apologize again.

Apples and oranges, two different things.

Yeah, but it's exactly right.

There are people that will connect in the physical building and there are people that will connect digitally.

And that's the thing, is that, you know, we're not trying to change people's minds.

We're trying to do ministry with the people that are receptive to that.

And so, lean into that.

You know, it's – Elmichelle says the anonymity leads towards more transparency.

That's good.

And so, to be able to feed on that and work that relationship.

It's interesting.

With Bless, it's begin with prayer.

This is our digital version of it.

Sharing Jesus Online, the book, sharingjesusonline.com.

Dr. John and I wrote it together.

Begin with prayer, listen, eat together is physical, but shared experiences, digital, virtual shared experiences, get to know them, the person, serve the person, and then share your Jesus story is the last thing.

And so, you know, to be able to be emotionally available, to be listening through the top four, begin with prayer, listen, shared experiences, serve.

Like, all that feeds into the gospel presentation as opposed to, you know, hitting somebody over the head.

It was interesting.

Actually, this morning, I got a DM early or maybe it was late last night or somebody said something.

One of the guys that's in EDM, he works for a seminary and I think he's a seminary student.

He was playing Population One, it's a video game in virtual reality where you go around, like, shooting people.

It's community-based.

And so they were playing this game in virtual reality, going around shooting people.

And so it was him, he's a Christian, and then there was this other guy who was a Christian as well.

And they were talking, and then there was other people on the team who weren't Christians.

And they were, the two of them were, like, very, were playing the game where others could hear him.

But they were talking about God and church and ministry and kind of some of the behind-the-scenes stuff and some of the, you know, frustrations, good and bad with the work.

And one of the guys that was on the team who was not a Christian was, like, shut the up and this is not, and, you know, I don't want to hear about God.

And really, like, it was the not being sensitive to where he was actually, like, turned him off and pushed him away accidentally.

Like, the two of them didn't recognize the potential.

And it's, like, maybe to be more sensitive towards that.

How do we, how do we, as people, and I'm a type A guy, I'm a jerk.

Like, I just admit that publicly.

How do I start to think more, like, being emotionally available, to be more sensitive to the people around me?

Like, what's the, is there a cue, is there a trick, is there, like, a mind thing?

How do I flip the switch to be able to kind of change some of my psyche?

What do you recommend?

Well, I don't know if this is textbook, but I think empathy comes from suffering.

So I think the more you live, the more suffering you're exposed to, the more empathy grows in you.

And so, now I don't, yeah.

There's probably able to people to prove me wrong on that, but I think there's definitely a correlation to someone's experience.

Say that again.

No, empathy.

Empathy.

Empathy grows from the, from experience suffering.

From experience suffering.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the more that, the more that you're broken, the more that you're humble, the more that you're able to be reshaped is how you become more emotionally available.

You see, you see it in others, you see the signs, it becomes familiar, becomes when you've experienced it yourself, it becomes so close to you that you begin to see it in others.

So if you've been hurt or bullied or, you know, grief or any of the number of suffering that people can experience when you've experienced that you can quickly pick up on when other people experience that.

And empathy is wanting to meet the person where they're at and extend compassion in a way that we wish we've received.

We, we can feel, we know what it feels like and we can put ourselves in our, in, in ourselves in their shoes.

And so, um, you know, I think it's, if you want to become more of an empathetic person, then I think you need to put yourself into spaces and be vulnerable and, and re take risks and, and you will quickly learn empathy by, by feeling by bad exposure.

But I think there are ways to show up when you just don't know what to say.

If that doesn't come naturally, there are, you know, I, I walked through.

You have a BLESS acronym.

I don't have a special acronym, but I definitely have some steps that I would recommend.

If you don't know what to say, you know, here's how you can show up to help create that space.

Um, but I definitely think if you want to become more empathetic, then you need to, um, put yourself out there.

Yeah.

Oh, by the way, I'm, I'm the acronym King.

And so if you ever need any acronym, I will, I will figure that out.

I, I love me an acronym, but, um, you know,

there, there's a little bit, we talk about if we're going to shine in the light in the darkness, we need to be prepared.

And, and this is a personal testimony for my life.

If we're going to shine light in the darkness, we need to be prepared to shine that light on ourselves.

And, um, you know, being, um, you know, being, being broken in some of this has been at a personal level for me, it's been very hard, but I do think that that brokenness has allowed me to be more empathetic and has allowed me a different view and a different passion.

Um, which is, you know, um, which is, you know, one of the reasons why we're, we're leaning so hard into the addictive space, you know, and, and, and realizing a, um, we're doing ministry in addictive space.

B, we're inviting others to do ministry in an addictive space.

And C, we're working with people.

We're doing ministry to people.

We're reaching out to people that are addicted, uh, to, to things.

And so we need to care for ourselves.

We need to care for the people that are, are ministering with us and the people we're ministering to.

And so being able to be, being able to be broken in that, I think is important.

It's, it's funny.

I, um, I, I, I tell this, I told, I wrote this story.

I'm not going to tell the story, but it often, the, the, the story led to this point.

I'll just get to the point where sometimes it, like my experience that in doing as a digital pastor for a physical church, I felt very clean.

Like, you know, I was, I was not connecting with people, you know, it was just very kind of shallow relationships.

And, and I was, I was working people through the system.

Let me get them connected into a group.

Let me, you know, I'll, I'll connect with them at a superficial level, but I really didn't know the people I was ministering to confession, um, doing digital ministry emotionally available, um, missions work relationships.

As opposed to the, the, the, the other model, um, if it has been far more challenging and like, to me, it almost feels like, um, like, you know, jumping in the mud with people just to kind of a little bit where I'm, I'm being more, um, real with people in that, in that lens, in that scope.

And that was, that was uncomfortable for me for a while.

Like, I'll be honest.

Like that was, how, how, how much is too much?

Do I, how do I protect myself?

How do I, you know, there was a little bit of, honestly, there was a little burnout in my life going back.

Um, how do we, how do we stop ourselves from being too emotionally available?

Is there, is, is there a, a, a, like a, a point that we don't go across?

Like what, where, how do we, how do we stop?

Should we stop?

What, how do we control?

How do we heal?

How do we restore?

Give me a little bit on that space.

Well, I think one of the, one of the things that I say in, um, it's actually the third point of, um, what to say when you don't know what to say is offer support that doesn't require the person to initiate.

So, you know, this is like jumping backwards from a different point, but the thing on that is, but it doesn't add burden to yourself.

So knowing what is within your capacity and knowing what is out of reach, um, for offering support to that person is really, really important.

So if you just a very, you know, simple example that I think is almost silly, but if you know, you have a family plans or you have, you know, a meeting to go to, you're not going to say, Hey, I'm going to give you a call at six o'clock.

No, that's when your family dinner is, but you can say, Hey, can I text you later on tonight, you know, or, Hey, do you want to touch back tomorrow at such and such time?

Then, you know, you're offering that you're extending the olive branch.

You're doing the work to extend the olive branch, but it's within the bound.

So I think the first thing is really just only offering what is within your capacity.

And the first step is knowing what's within your capacity.

Yeah.

Um, so I would say that would be the first thing is don't over reach or overextend when you're engaging with that person.

Yeah.

I, um, that's hard, right?

It's well, it's hard.

It's hard, but I think you learn your lesson pretty quick when you overreach and you're like, now I am, I am agitated.

I am resentful.

I am resentful.

I am overwhelmed.

I can't juggle it all.

And now I'm re I'm hoping that the person doesn't ask for more help because I've exhausted all of those things.

Um, all of my capacity, all of my time and energy has been used up.

And so you want to be able to have the slow, you know, only extend what is within your capacity so that you don't completely extinguish everything.

Can you hear me now?

It's funny.

I think I double clicked on the wrong thing.

You can hear me.

Okay, good.

I was, I was trying to mute my mic to cough and I think I messed that up.

Sorry.

Um, so how else do we protect ourselves?

How do we set boundaries up on this?

Uh, don't overextend.

Are there some other things we should consider?

Um, there's definitely things to consider.

Um, but how to maintain boundaries.

Is that what you're asking?

How to maintain boundaries?

Oh my goodness.

I did not bring those notes up, but I'm sorry.

Oh, you're having me off.

No, no.

We could talk about it.

We talk.

It's just casual, right?

This isn't a formal lesson.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

We're two people sitting around a coffee shop.

You're great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, you know, when I think of boundaries, it is, um, for me, I have, I have the red flags

and the yellow flags.

It takes a lot of self-reflection.

I'm going to be honest, having engaging in reflection is the, is, um, as an absolute

must skill for any caregiver, because if you're not reflective on how the caregiving is impacting

you and how your stuff is impacting you, you're going to spew it and slime it all over everyone.

And so I think you need to be really reflective.

And one of the things you can reflect on is what is the yellow flags and the red flags?

What are the warning sides?

And what is the, the, like, you need additional support.

You need to press pause and, um, of being the red flag for me, my yellow flag is when

I isolate, when I'm pulling away from activities that I normally would enjoy, like, um, book

club or playing volleyball or, um, you know, walking my dog.

Those are the things I say, Ooh, I'm not doing really great.

I need to keep an eye out of things on things.

And so just really recognizing and being reflective and knowing what the yellow flags are when you're,

when you're starting to go downhill and, and, um, by knowing those, you know, when to stop

and, and care for yourself.

And so, um, I think that's really important for boundaries is, and not overextending.

One of the hardest things for me, um, and, and I still don't know if this is good or bad.

Like, I, I want, I want to wrestle with this is, um, passing it on to someone else.

Yeah.

Like I, I, there I'm, I'm emotionally available.

I'm connecting.

This person's going through a hard thing.

It's taking more energy, more resources, more equipping, more knowledge.

Like the scope of this thing is probably beyond what, what I can really do.

But what I'm finding is that like, I, I don't know if it's ego.

I don't know if it's pride.

Uh, but like, I, I, I, I can solve it.

I can fix it.

I can handle it.

I can do it.

I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to pass it on.

Um, is, is it, is it healthy to, to pass it on?

Is it, is it, you know, it does it, does that break?

Do I need to be better in, in, in study harder to be able to handle these difficult situations?

Like, how, how, what do you recommend in that space?

Yeah.

Um, one of the signs of compassion fatigue or when you're, you're, you're becoming weary or burnt out as a result of the caregiving is an over-engagement in other people's stories and other people's issues and problems.

And, and it's like the number one thing it's, you skip lunch, you don't go on vacation, you miss activities, you think you are God's, God has sent you, you and only you to that person, um, that no other person can care for them quite like you can.

And, um, I'm not saying like it's in a delusional way where, you know, there's a psychotic, um, feature to that.

But more, more in that, that over, over response, you feel overly responsible for that person's life.

And, and that actually is a yellow flag when those thoughts come.

And when those feelings come, that's the yellow flag saying, Ooh, I think I've stepped, I'm, I'm too thick.

I'm too deep into it.

I need some perspective.

I need to gather people around and I don't mean refer as in send them away and say, I can no longer help you, but let's bring another person into the conversation.

Who can add a different perspective, right?

It's how we, no one wants the feeling rejected is the worst feeling ever.

No one wants to feel rejected.

And so, oh, your problems are too hard for me.

I'm going to send you away to a specialist because you're, you know, you're so broken.

That's a terrible feeling.

We never want to do that.

But what we can say is, Hey, I feel like I am this person in your life.

I feel like I am a friend or I am a fellow student or I'm a fellow parent or whatever.

I actually don't have a lot of experience in this other issue that you're, you know, struggling with, or that you've showed.

Do you mind if we bring, I connect you with someone else and you can maintain the relationship.

You can stay in someone's life, but you definitely bring in other voices.

There's scripture on that multitude of advisors.

Isn't there a proverb on that?

I'm not, I'm someone can put it in the chat, then know the reference to it.

But yeah, it's got it.

If he's around, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To a multiple, a multiple of, uh, advisors or something.

Yeah.

And it's, it's, it's healthy to bring more people in.

It's not healthy to gossip and just spread news around people, but to know what is within

your capacity, within your skillset, where your expertise lie, and then bring in the extra.

For sure.

The idea of bringing somebody in to the, to the relationship that's new to me.

I've never, I've, I've, I haven't done that.

I've always, I've always, I don't want to be always, but for the most part, if it's out

of my league, I hand it off to the, to somebody else and let that be the thing.

And so, um, it's interesting.

Ukulele comes in here saving the day without council plans fail, but with many advisors,

they succeed.

Thank you, pastor Google, ukulele.

Good, good find on that.

Uh, if you use Google or if you use a chat GPT, that would be interesting, but, uh, she nailed

that pretty quick.

Um, but the, the heart of this, I think really leans into, um, uh, knowing where your limits

are.

Yeah.

Um, you know, being invested, know where your limits are, and then invite others into the

conversation with that.

Um, you know, I would say one of the things that we want to do with the church digital is

to try to create, um, systems, processes, and helps for people that can come along.

You know, I was, I was talking with the church, um, digital church, and they had, had two or

three suicide situations in, uh, or dealt with two or three suicide situations within a couple

weeks.

Um, there were a couple, um, you know, frictions within leadership.

There were, uh, some negativity among some of the volunteers and, and like, there's just,

there was major issues that, that needed to work, get worked out and, and, and, you know,

mental health, being able to, to listen and process and, and help them work through some

of these things is, is important.

But when you're looking at like, you know, their suicide, how do you handle those situations

and digitally?

What's, what's, what's the, the process of that?

And there's really, there's not a lot of, well, there's mixed clarity.

What, uh, once somebody says, do this, somebody does that.

And, and like, it's all over the place.

Um, and as we're emotionally available, we're going to get more of those types of situations

and that's okay.

We want to know that, but we want to be available.

We want to work through it, but we need to know where our limitations are and to be able

to hand it off.

And so what have, what we're trying to do with the church digital is to create trainings

and, and, and find partners that can help digital missionaries, digital churches, virtual reality

churches like you, uh, solve that.

And so, uh, uh, El, Michelle, uh, Stacy, Laura, um, we're working, I would say very hard.

I don't know that we've ramped up to the very hard level yet.

That's coming.

Uh, but we're, I think we're working hard on that right now and having some

really fruitful conversations, uh, globally.

Some, some, uh, partners are coming on board that are excited.

Go ahead, Laura.

And I would challenge the hand them off language.

Let's bring them into the conversation.

That's better.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Let's bring them into the conversation because this is, we want to build community and we

want to really maintain trusted relationships, right?

Transformation moves at the speed of relationships.

I heard that quote from someone last week and I was like, oh, it's changed.

You know, I, it keeps coming up every conversation.

And so, um, we want to maintain relationship with people.

And so by bringing people into the conversation, we are, um, we are maintaining that trust.

We're staying connected.

We're walking alongside.

And I think that is, um, you know, when you look at what is transformational in people,

when they find recovery, whether it's an addictions or mental health,

um, the, the, the modality or the theory or the skillset or the whatever clinical practice

the person uses doesn't actually make that much of an impact.

The biggest impact in recovery is in relationship, the relationship between you and their therapist

relationship between you and the peer supporter relationship.

And so, um, if we really want to see transformation and care for people in the digital space,

I really think we need to bring people in rather than refer them out.

You know, you're, you're, what I really like about you, Laura, is you, um, you find a weak

spot in language and you, you call me on it.

She's, she's done this.

She's done me done this maybe two or three times.

I'm not allowed to say triage.

I'm not allowed to say handoff.

Um, like, and even, even like, it was funny.

We were, we were in a meeting and we were working through the framework and she's like,

that doesn't, you need, you need to have like graphical.

And I was like, great.

I got my kids, my kids created a 3d, uh, graphical representation.

We're going to make some adjustments to that, but it's, it's, uh, it's the prototype.

Uh, Michelle said in the chat, she said alongside alongside, I think that's a, that's a great.

Um, and so that's where we're bringing people alongside the relationship where we keep the

relationship.

Um, yeah, no, I, I, I love that.

Um, so from the church digital.

Go ahead, please.

And I think, and not to challenge you, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Not to challenge you on language all the time, because I don't think it has, you're not saying

anything wrong.

We're, no one else is saying anything wrong.

We all have the best of intentions, but we are literally carving a new pathway, right?

Right.

This is newly developed space.

So we are, you know, when you think of culture, uh, you think of art and food and language.

And so we are developing a whole new culture.

And so that's part of the process.

No, I, I, I love it.

And, um, you know, like, uh, Barbara, listen, I love getting, getting bossed around.

I love getting, you know, told I love being, I love being challenged, you know, and, um,

I started to say I'm man enough to be able to handle it.

But, you know, the fact is, is that I'm humble enough to recognize that sometimes people around

me are smarter and I try to surround myself with smarter people than me to make the ideas

better.

And, um, and Laura, we want to be the best.

Oh, totally.

Laura, you, Elle, Michelle, Stacey on this mental health stuff, Mindy Caliguire, historically,

um, like there's, there's a number of people that are, that are shaping my worldview and,

and even, even things like alongside instead of handoff.

I mean, that's a, that's a tell historically that I've been handing off.

And it's not, we want to, we want to include in, into the community and, and invite more

people in, which is my heart, to be honest, but I've, I've been saying my words have been

handing off.

And so to be able to shift to that language is so important.

Ukulele, absolutely.

What's available in language is a culture of greatly influences how the culture develops.

Yeah.

And with the church digital, we want to create that culture.

We want to create a culture of, of digital missionaries by, uh, encouraging, equipping,

um, experimenting, uh, empowering mission work that, that happens.

Um, yeah, Skerritt, I don't, I don't know that I believe this, but, uh, Jeff is like mortal

combat.

New challenger has arrived.

That's funny.

Um, Skerritt's a fun guy.

I just met him today.

And so I'm looking forward to meeting him a little bit.

Um, yeah, it's, that's cool.

We'll dig more into it.

Um, this has been great.

Um, how do, what's something simple?

Let's back up here a little bit.

Let's talk about, uh, being emotionally available.

Okay.

What's a simple, let's, I'm going to kick the tires.

What's a simple thing that I can do practical step that I can do to start to apply this to,

to my ministry?

What, what would it look like to be a simple way to try to be more emotionally available?

I would say the simplest way is your first response.

When someone tells you something that is feely, you know, has that touchy feely vibe to it.

Rather your first response back to them is a validating response.

And you say, Hey, it sounds like, you know, it sounds like you're having a really hard day.

It sounds like you're, you know, feel you're upset.

What it sounds like you're reflecting back to them and you're validating their experience.

You're not, you're not questioning, you're not fighting with, you're not satisfying your own

internal need to be cured, you know, know more and what's behind the scoop or who said that it, wow.

It really sounds like you've had a really difficult day.

If your first response to them is their own words and their own feelings, it, it, it, it tells them that you're a safe space that you can handle this conversation and that you're really hearing them.

And so I would say that is the very first thing and just to get, try that on and see what happens.

Yeah, that's, that is, that is such good advice right there.

Reflect it back to show them that you're listening to build trust.

I've got my friend Joel here.

Joel is somewhere in Africa.

Forgive me.

I don't remember if it's Nigeria or Kenya right now.

I just met Joel.

He's going through my EDM cohort, equipping digital missionaries right now.

It's a blessing to learn new things every day.

My network is not working well, but I am following up.

And so Joel, I want to challenge you maybe as you're following up to use some of the language that, that Laura is talking about here of, of reflecting it, reflecting it back, asking some of those questions.

That was, that was beautiful advice.

Uh, Laura, my, my question to you in this context, Joel's in Africa.

Like, is the stuff that we're talking about, um, this, this, um, uh, is this global?

Is this contextualized?

Do different cultures adapt this way?

Like how, how, how do you see some of these ideas scaling globally?

Well, I'm not arrogant, arrogant enough to say that my words are contextualized to every culture.

I think that would be inappropriate.

Why not?

Come on.

No, no.

Very hubris.

Um, but, um, I would, I would think that in, uh, as we learn about culture and context that we can, the concept of validating what someone says,

is really valuable depending on the context.

So, you know, if there's, you know, gender, um, or age, um, cultural norms, we want to respect that, right?

If it's not a cultural norm to be able to respond that way, we, that, you know, is priority because if we, you know, speak, pro inappropriately, then that's going to create barrier and mistrust immediately.

Um, uh, however, if it's on a peer level, um, you know, I think that, that from my understanding, Western culture, it, it would be, it would be appropriate.

And so if, um, if I was responding to Joel in that, I would say, wow, Joel, that sounds like it's really frustrating that your network, it sounds like you're, you know, you're experiencing a lot of tech challenges right now.

So it's really just that simple.

It's just hearing what someone says and then responding with sounds like, and, um, is it culturally appropriate?

I would have to, I would have to defer to the person of that culture.

And, and, and that's, I mean, that's, I don't want to be like, that's the right answer, but that, that's what we, that's what we believe with the church digital is all this stuff needs to be contextualized.

Joel, you need to experiment with it.

And we're going to get some of that into the cohort ultimately.

And Joel, I'm going to fast forward because you don't know this yet, but we're going to talk about it later.

Um, we want to involve you in one of our outposts, Joel, that offer you that operates in Southern Africa, where we're collecting together people that are doing digital ministry and digital mission work in the Southern African context, because I'm just to be honest, they understand what's happening in Southern Africa better than I do in Miami, Florida, or better than Laura does in, uh, Canada, Toronto.

Where are you?

Toronto, Canada, Canada, where it's, it's, it's, it's cold.

Um, it's colder than it was where I am, at least say that, but the, um, the, the point is Joel to, to, to you, to take some of these lessons and experiment on it.

Um, it may work, it may not work.

It may needs to adapt.

And one of the things we want to listen to would work.

I think the listening would work.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Um, but it, it is, you know, are you going to respond and say those words is what I was thinking.

Yeah, that's, that's good.

Um, here, yes, scare it.

Uh, it's very humble of you, Laura.

Listening is universally appreciated that that's a good word right there.

Scare it.

Um, cool.

All right.

So we, we've, we've, we've got some practical insight.

We've got some next steps.

Um, we're, we're going to, we're going to listen more.

We're going to dig into it.

Uh, Steve, Steve, I haven't put you up here yet today.

I think so.

Just, you know, uh, agreed to that.

He's, he's happy.

So as, um, as, as, as we're landing the plane here, um, any, any closing thoughts, any, any

other challenges that we need to look at it being emotionally available?

Uh, it is really tempting, uh, for us to start to share our story back in, in trying to create

common bonds and common relationship.

However, um, just be aware of when that is an appropriate time.

If someone is sharing and, you know, being emotional or feely or vulnerable with you, that

might not be the best time to say, oh yeah, my aunt, my aunt Sue had that same thing happened

to her or whatever.

Keep the focus on the other, on the other person.

Um, it is very tempting to trying to find that common ground and, and mutual experience

by sharing your own story.

But true listening is really making it about the other person.

Um, you just challenged me on that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, like put a, put a, put a, put a time on that.

Like, are we talking minutes?

Are we talking hours?

Like how, cause I mean, that's man, I, I feel you.

I've, I've been there.

Tell me about it.

Like I'll, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll do that, um, to try to relationally connect with

them.

But you're saying that trying to relationally connect with them actually devalues what they're

saying, I think it depends on the relationship.

So if someone's coming to you, best friend, uh, brother, sister, colleague, if they're coming

to you because they're struggling and they're opening up to you, do not share about yourself

at all.

But if they come back and you can say, Hey, how was it?

And you're initiating the conversation or you're checking back in and then there's continual.

But as when that person is vulnerable and sharing with you, try to resist the urge to share your

your own story just for that conversation, there will be opportunities later to create that comment.

Or you can say, Hey, that story you told me or what that happened to you reminded me of a time when, how was it?

And then you turn it back to them.

You never want to turn it to yourself in the moment of vulnerability.

You want to keep the focus and keep the attention, the support heading in their direction.

Yeah.

Steve, that's this, you're, you're, you're challenging me, Laura, which I love.

You know, Steve's asking the question, how's that fit within shared experiences with blessed,

begin with prayer, listen, shared experiences.

Um, you know, I, I'm, as I'm hearing this and applying it to it, you know, listening is more

about the person, shared experiences make it more about the person.

It's more about, about the relationship and spin it more towards them.

Serving is, is more about the person.

And so like, really when you, when you spin it, it's, it's, it's when you get to share

your, your Jesus story that that's at the bottom.

And so you've, you've got to, you've got to just feel that.

And I agree with that.

Like, I've always felt that it just was like, I would, you know, somebody would tell me something

and it'd be like, Oh my gosh, that's so bad.

You know, I, and I would try to empathize with them by connecting, but if that's, it's,

it's interesting that that's bad.

Like I suddenly feel bad.

Well, I don't want to put the label of bad.

I don't want to put the label of bad.

But if the, if the, because if you're having a connected conversation and showing us someone

is sharing a story, then yeah, it's, you're just, you know, catching up for coffee.

It's fine.

But if someone's like, Oh my gosh, I have a rough day.

Can you talk?

Or I really would love to talk with you.

When the intention of the conversation is to provide support, then you want to make sure

the support is directed towards the person for the entirety of the conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is so good.

We need to do this more.

Like I, I just, I really, I really like hanging out with Laura.

Um, uh, Lynn and Laura was connected to Barbara's how I found them.

So once again, like Barbara is the best thing I tell people all the time, Barbara was the

best thing I did in 24.

And, um, you know, the connection with you and the influence, um, it's probably one of the

two best things that we'll do in 25.

Uh, because I, I, I am so driven.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not, I'm not kidding.

Equipping a mobilization, the stuff that JMO is working on now with, with me, I'm excited

about how it's going to roll out globally and solving this, this mental health, this care

problem, um, digitally.

This is, um, this is a major issue within the space that needs to be addressed.

And I, I, you know what, I, there are resources and there are people that want to partner with

us.

They just don't know it.

Like I've, I've met very few people that are like, no, that's, you're crazy.

Everybody's like, yes, there's an opportunity.

Let's figure it out.

No, it may or may not work, but, um, I'm, I'm confident that we're going to find people

to come in and, and address this.

And so Laura, I am very excited for this conversation and, and many others to come.

If, um, if somebody's got questions or they want to connect with you at a, at a personal

level or learn more about Hope Made Strong, like what's the, what's the best way to connect

with you?

Uh, email Laura at HopeMadeStrong.org goes to me and then HopeMadeStrong.org is the website.

Um, you can go on there or Instagram.

Awesome.

And so you'll be seeing Laura and the effects of Laura all over the church digital in the

days to come.

When is the, when is your summit coming up?

It's in the fall?

October 10th.

Oh yeah.

You guys, you got it.

You got a long way.

Yeah.

And so, but Hope Made Strong will be in breakouts.

Rebecca, uh, we'll be doing a couple of breakouts.

I'm not sure on the topic.

I don't know that I've seen it yet, but we're excited about that.

And some of the other things.

I think it's about burnout, to be honest.

I think it is about burnout.

I mean, I can, I can, I can certainly relate to that.

So that's, that's, that's good stuff.

Um, mental health's important, you know, especially I just, we're doing ministry in

addictive space where we're getting volunteers, recruiting them to come in to do ministry in

the addictive space.

And we're ministering to people that are in addictive space.

Like we've got to, we've got to get that armor of God on.

And, um, I'm thankful for Laura, for Elmichelle, for Stacey and the others that, that are speaking

into this, uh, from a mental health capacity, from, for a prayer capacity, some of the stuff

that Whitebeard's doing as well and is ramping up to do with us.

Like it's a, it's an exciting season.

Um, it's a hard season today, but I know that what we're, what we're building towards is,

is going to be used by the kingdom in a big way tomorrow.

So stay tuned on a lot of this, but we're going to land a plane and this has been a great

conversation on being emotionally available.

Uh, we've got another stream next week and actually I may jump on a stream Thursday just

to have fun and hang out with y'all.

But more later on that, but, uh, to relaying the plane here for Barbara with Home Meet Strong,

this is Jeff at the Church Digital.

Thanks for hanging out on the stream with us and we'll see you next time on the show.

All right.

Take care, everyone.