EP 330 - Questions - What is the role of digital in incarnational ministry? (with Jesse Carbo)

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the Church.

But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple-making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey everybody, Jeff with the Church Digital.

I am excited about this episode.

I love this conversation.

Sat down, actually a good friend of mine on the board of directors,

founder of Digital Mission Project, Jesse Carbo, reached out.

You know, he's here in Miami.

Jumped online with him a bunch and we're constantly texting each other,

probably have coffee with him, breakfast maybe once or twice a month every couple weeks,

just to, you know, catch up and hold each other accountable.

But sat down, Jesse texted me a while back.

He's like, hey, how does digital fit into incarnational ministry?

And my response back was, how do you define incarnational ministry?

And he replied, how do you define digital?

And so, like, it was a really interesting conversation.

We ended up jumping here, did a quick recording.

Actually, it was not quick.

It was a really good conversation on the role of digital with incarnational ministry.

And maybe the missed opportunities of incarnational ministry.

One, missing the understanding of digital community.

And two, missing the opportunity to use digital to build trust and establish relationships.

And so, it was really interesting.

We put together some things in this conversation that, walking into it, I hadn't even put together.

Like, I learned some stuff from Jesse.

And Jesse's like, oh my gosh, he was learning stuff from that.

And so, really, it's a difference been on Web 1, Web 2, and Web 3 that I hadn't started.

And he kind of finished it off.

And I was like, oh my gosh, this is really, really good.

So, if you've ever been challenged on what's the role of digital in incarnational ministry, listen to this conversation.

We've got myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, and Jesse Carbo, founder of the Digital Missions Project.

And by the way, he's on the Board of Directors for the Church Digital.

In a conversation, you know, I'm calling here, what is the role of digital in incarnational ministry?

Tongue twister there.

All right, everybody, here you go.

So, I was invited to write an article about how digital plays a role in incarnational mission.

So, there is an organization.

You're familiar with the Gospel Coalition?

Sure.

A lot of people are familiar.

Very well-known.

They don't like me.

Well, maybe, they probably don't like a lot of people.

They're very, Gospel Coalition tends to be very theologically narrow.

Yes.

Even though I personally might identify with that theological narrowness, practically the way that it fleshes itself out is like, if you don't, you know, it's the typical, like, if you don't look like us, dress like us, you know, they're very...

It's black and white.

It's not gray.

Lithic in there.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, so there's a similar organization, but I would say in another camp across the field called Missio Alliance, where they are also theologically rooted, but I would say they're a little more broad in their willingness to collaborate and work with.

They're more ecumenical, let's put it that way, right, where Gospel Coalition is less ecumenical, Missio Alliance would be more ecumenical.

But one of the distinctives of the Missio Alliance is this idea of incarnational mission.

One way I'll do, and I have friends in both camps, you know, and so, like, my friends at Missio Alliance would be what I would consider social justice warriors, and that's a good thing.

I don't, I'm not saying that in a negative way, whereas my friends at Gospel Coalition are more like theological, you know, pureness, purity warriors, you know.

Yeah, academia versus practical, a little bit.

Yeah, they both, they both want the centrality of the Gospel for all of life.

Like, they both would talk to, like, I think some commonality for them would be, like, Tim Keller and Redeemer City to City and the stuff that comes out of there.

Tim Keller's, like, obviously one of the founding members of Gospel Coalition, but he's also, Tim Keller was known to be a big proponent of social justice and its implications of the Gospel and how.

And out of that comes, like, in this, like, need to really flesh the Gospel out for everyday life, it looks like moving and being like Jesus.

Jesus moved into our neighborhood, right?

He stepped down from heaven, came to earth.

He moved into the hood of earth and he basically said, like, I'm here in the flesh to do kingdom building, kingdom renewal work.

And so that's the concept behind incarnational mission is that it's people in the flesh moving into neighborhoods to do kingdom renewal work.

So then the question becomes, well, how does digital fit into all that?

Because that doesn't feel like, you know, that feels like avoiding the neighborhood.

It feels like staying away from the neighborhood.

How do you reconcile?

And so Lisa Watson, who is actually from Miami and we're friends from back in the past and, you know, so she's the director for Missio Alliance now.

And we were talking and they've got a big conference coming up in D.C. next month in March and Digital Missions Project is going to sponsor a little bit.

We're just a small little sponsor of the conference, but but we, you know, we briefly had a conversation about digital and I asked her, I was like, where do you address this?

Where do you talk about because every person, I mean, even Missio Alliance, the fact that they even have a website and they publish articles on their website, that's digital.

And they're doing Zoom calls, they do workshops, they do webinars, that's digital what.

And so she she was like, yeah, that's a good point.

And she challenged me, she says, would you be interested in writing an article about that and reconciling, you know, showing us how you might.

Yeah, yeah, reconcile.

So before I put pen to paper, you know, proverbially pen to paper, let me tell you my secrets so that you can take credit for it while writing the article.

That's that's basically what you're saying.

Well, it could be the article could be Jeffrey and Jesse Carbo.

OK, all right.

But, you know, it could be it could be I have no I have no no problem.

You know, it could be something that, you know, you and I have this conversation and then we let AI kind of summarize it and rewrite it for us.

Yeah, totally. I love that.

We we said we submitted as like you and I wrote the article and, you know, but but I do think I do think that it's a.

It is a very important conversation because I would.

Align myself with the concept of incarnational mission.

I'm a huge proponent of.

So even in my days when I train church planners through Redeemer City to City, I do not love.

Now, I'm not I'm not like against or opposed, but I don't love.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

I don't know if I'm not a person.

One of the challenges for this church whenever they decide to get a new senior pastor is will that new senior pastor, will he meet the neighbors?

Yeah.

People who live in the home.

Yeah, we'll get in the office and meet the neighbors of the people who literally live across the street.

Like every morning, there's about 25 people around this church property that they get in their car and they see the church building, but they don't know the people of this church and the church doesn't know them.

Yeah.

You know, and so incarnational mission to me is really important for healthy.

But then but then you have this reality of like digital.

And so, yeah, so that's the conversation is like, how does that play into it?

So, yeah.

Yeah, there's a there's a philosophy that I stole.

I adapted it from Saddleback online to offline.

It's based on James 122, the gospel that we hear.

And I'm paraphrasing here, the gospel that we hear in our online world.

It has to influence our once again, paraphrasing our offline relationships.

Otherwise, all we're doing is creating consumers.

And so all the all the energy that goes into, you know, creating disciples digitally, it there has to be a metric and a movement in the physical space.

Otherwise, we're consuming a product.

We have bifurcated lives where we're we're one person physically and we're another person digitally.

And, you know, if I'm you know, I used to tell the story like if I'm verbally abusive to my wife, but you know, I'm posting Bible verses on my Facebook.

Well, that still makes me a very bad person for for being verbally abusive to my wife.

And so, you know, at a bifurcated level, we have to be consistent all the way through.

And so if we're if we're actively making disciples digitally, there should be some level of the fruits of the spirit that are being shown physically.

Now, I would back up a little bit.

You're talking about, well, you know, website and Zoom.

And so there's there's different levels of engagement towards digital.

I almost would roll this out.

And this may be a stretch, but I would talk about Web one, Web two, Web three.

Actually, I've written a couple of articles on this where, you know, Web one was the information age.

Everybody's putting every piece of Internet information on the Internet.

You can Google, you know, stuff.

You know, the atlases are dead.

The encyclopedias are dead.

It's now called Google.

And so all that information is on a Web page somewhere.

And so as as a result of that, you know, a church putting a Web site up that's got like the the street address and the service times.

Well, that's a that's a Web one approach digitally, because what you're trying to do is drive people into the physical building for discipleship, for evangelism, for equipping like you have no value of digital other than you're just trying to get people into the building.

That's that's Web one.

Web two.

You know, it's more of the social media.

That's that's that age where it's all about communication and dialogue.

And so this is where, you know, the Facebook videos come in.

People are now chatting at each other.

And I would argue what you're talking about, Zoom.

OK, you know, like you and I mean, we're in Miami.

You and I could be together right at this moment.

We're 20 minutes apart from each other.

And so we could we could meet over at Baptist Hospital on 88th Street, which is pretty much equally equidistant from where we are and have this conversation face to face.

But instead, we're utilizing technology to do that because it's more convenient for us in this moment.

And so that's recognizing Web two.

And at a church perspective, I can use some of this stuff for I can use for equipping.

But the heart is, is we still want to see people in the physical building like Web two is not recognizing digital community as much as it is digital communication.

And so we're still trying to get people into the physical building Web three, I would argue, is more of an immersive.

It's more of and this is where virtual reality and some of this comes in.

But even the heart of virtual reality and the heart of the metaverse is all about community and in recognizing community.

And this is what, you know, to the church digital, the drum that we're banging is, hey, recognize digital community and its effectiveness to to connect with people for evangelism, for discipleship.

And if relationships stay digital, it's OK now that does challenge a little bit of what you're talking about.

The the flip side that I would say, though, is, is that even if we have a Web three approach, if we are just living our Christian discipleship lives in digital environments and people are not seeing the fruit of that in physical space.

That's a bad thing. Like we are we're bifurcated.

We're torn. We're not living the life that God's called us to be.

Just like if I was at home doing one thing in the workplace doing another, that would be bifurcated in itself.

We've got to be consistent all the way through. Is this resonating at all or what do you think in here?

Yeah. Yeah. And just for the sake of.

For the recording, so that if we use AI to help us write the article, can you go back?

You shared that passage. You said it was James one twenty two.

James one twenty two in the NIV roughly the the I'm sorry.

The I'm sorry. Don't don't just be. Oh, my gosh.

You asked me to do it. I was in my rhythm says.

No, it's fine. It's fine.

Here's of the word. And so deceive yourself.

Do what it says. That's James one twenty two.

And so I would paraphrase it. Don't just be hearers of the word online.

And so deceive yourselves. Do what it says in the physical world like.

And that's what I'm saying. Like, it's not about two lives.

It's about one life that can't exist in two parallels.

We need to be discipled physically as well as digitally.

So maybe we can. Let's establish what do we mean when we say discipleship, because then if we can establish the definition of what we mean by what we say discipleship, then we can talk about is discipleship even possible digitally speaking.

Right. So. So my personal opinion is that discipleship and even according to this passage, discipleship is not just about consuming knowledge.

Knowledge or having possession of knowledge. Right.

And there is a there is a cultural norm, if you will, in the American church that the more Bible, you know, the more spiritual information you have, the more dare I say, holy you are or the better Christian you are.

But discipleship ultimately is about obedience. Right.

Right. Disciple like like develop making disciples is about leading them on a journey to obey and live the way of Jesus.

Sure. Right. Which is what I think. So then the question becomes, if that's what discipleship is, how do we help people follow, obey and live the way of Jesus?

And then can that happen in a digital context?

Then can that happen in a digital context?

A good example would be there's a young man who was a former student of mine when I was a teacher many, many years ago who lives six hours away from me.

I entered into a discipleship relationship with him where I am helping him live and follow the way of Jesus.

But a lot of it is done through text message, Zoom calls, phone calls, mainly digital means because we don't live in the same community. Right.

So then that's the question there. So my opinion is, yes, discipleship.

Assuming that's the definition of discipleship, you know, helping people live and follow the way of Jesus can happen in a digital context. Right.

But then what I heard you say earlier was.

That that and I also would ascribe to what Saddleback and Jay Crander wrote in his book is that.

If it's not impacting the daily life, if it's not impacting the real world, in person, human side of, you know, something's missing.

So anyways, go ahead and respond to that. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's it's there's you're you're right on both sides.

Like you can disciple someone digitally like, OK, so in your your three points, essentially obey, follow Jesus.

Not not a not a not an informational discipleship, but an active discipleship is what you're saying.

You can you can do that digitally.

Like, I mean, there are people that that I'm discipling that literally are on other continents, like people I've never met.

And I have and I have a five year, six year relationship with them via platforms like WhatsApp.

As a matter of fact, just last night I was I was WhatsApp being a guy and celebrating some some major things that he's doing and and working with him now towards discipling like a whole bunch of other people that that are in his country.

And so there is opportunities to do that that digitally.

Now, if if he and I and so, yes, you can extend discipleship.

I would say that that happens best in community.

And this is where we move from the Web 2.0 mindset to 3.0 mindset. Web 2.0 is we're going to talk to you.

But to disciple, you need to come to our physical space.

A Web 3.0 mindset is going to say, hey, we can disciple you and we're going to do that digitally because we believe that you can disciple via this relationship digitally.

And when I say communities, I'm talking I'm not talking social media because social media is a very shallow level of connection.

And that's not knocking the people that's knocking the platforms like you.

Like you it's very hard to to build a lasting long level relationship via digital via social media because the platforms are meant to be quick.

It's you talking one way to someone and maybe they reply back, but it's not a two way dialogue.

I would lean more to like a Facebook group does allow for two way easily slack WhatsApp discord.

You know, we use the term asynchronous technology and starting to get into that where, you know, it's not you talking.

It's it's them talking to you and you know how you disciple someone in the physical realm is you have a relationship and through the relationship.

You're modeling that and they're able to to see that and replicate that.

And so that's the same rules in digital.

You're modeling that for them.

They're able to see that and learn from that and replicate or in my my case, my friend in in Africa.

He has to contextualize this for his his region and do things, which is a challenge, but it's going well.

So would you say that doing digital because because there's another aspect, I think, to discipleship here is that discipleship is often best done in community.

And I think we would agree, you know, communities, a context of community is an important ingredient for healthy discipleship.

But what you're saying is like that community can be built and established digitally speaking.

Would you say that digital community for the sake of discipleship is the same or different than in person community for the sake of discipleship?

Yeah, I mean, what are their differences?

That's a loaded question.

It's funny.

That's the question.

I think that's the whole point of like incarnational mission is like I think that's the the the unspoken.

And that's what I'm trying to like bring it out from the dark corners of the kingdom world and conversation is to say, like, yeah, I think that's the big contention is people are people are wondering and thinking like, is there a difference?

Is it better? Is it worse? Is it like is it viable? Yeah, yeah, this is this is this is my response when people ask me that there are different types of people that will engage in digital discipleship and digital evangelism and digital community and digital relationships that will exist in the physical buildings.

What we're doing digitally is not in competition with physical, but we will reach a different type of person digitally than we do physically.

And even to build on that, the disciple makers that that we work with digitally often are not the type of people that would engage physically in discipleship.

Maybe it's a social issue or they're more comfortable in digital space or more comfortable behind an avatar.

And it's honestly, it's it's not for me to judge.

I don't know whether I can say one is better than the other, but I will say the people that were discipling are, you know, atheists, agnostics, people that haven't set foot in a church building in decades.

People that I've I can tell you stories of people that have shared Jesus more digitally than they've ever in one year than they ever did in a physical environment.

De church people coming back to Christ via Facebook groups or virtual reality people that have never heard Jesus coming coming to it through Twitch or video games like in the video game culture.

There is no understanding of who Jesus is or what the cross stands for like it's absent.

And so we're coming into that space really shedding light in a dark area that the physical buildings that the incarnational is not.

Now, your question is, is it better or not?

I don't know, but we're we're doing something different to reach someone different.

I would argue, you know, we need the you need the megachurch model.

We need the microchurch model.

We need a digital model.

We need a workplace model.

We need we need all of this to do it where I I'll just be honest a little bit here where I where the the hairs in the back of my neck,

the little hairs that I do have in the back of my neck rise is when people are like, well, digital is not better than physical or physical is better than digital.

I mean, if you believe that, that's true.

If you are open to digital or digital is your only option, then I mean, here's the story I'll tell you, Jesse.

And I can't put names on this story.

I have I have met what is arguably the last American that is in Iraq when Obama pulled out all the Americans.

I don't know, maybe this is four or five years ago.

He stayed behind to do ministry in Iraq and his ministry.

There's satellite broadcasts that are watched and that broadcast feeds people into a WhatsApp group or WhatsApp conversation where there are people in Iraq who are literally using WhatsApp to build a relationship to share Jesus and disciple.

And what's interesting even to build on that is the the person once they find Christ, they're still not invited into the physical group because that person has to lead the entire family to Christ.

And so not only evangelism where they come to Christ, but discipleship to the point that they can bring everyone in the family to Christ.

And the reason they do everyone in the family is because when in Iraq, when you get baptized, that's at the point that the government has the authority to kill you.

And so they want to baptize the entire family at one time to make sure that no family can snitch and, you know, kill the get the person killed.

And so it's it's to the WhatsApp has the power of discipleship to the level in a foreign country to bring someone to Christ, to bring the entire family to Christ, to the level that their government has the authority to kill them.

That's the power of digital discipleship when, OK, there's nothing else, but it's viable and it's working.

And so I don't know if it's better or worse, but, you know, gun to my head, if I had to use it, it's it's definitely viable.

Yeah, when whenever we speak in ways that feel like dogmatic, you know, like dogmatic truths, which is one of the challenges we have, I think, with like different groups like the Gospel Coalition, Missio Alliance and, you know, Redeemer City to City and all these other organizations out there.

There tends to be, you know, these kind of hard set like this is the way it is, like this is what the Bible teaches and this is how it should be.

I like to run it through a grid that says, well, if that's true, it's not only true here, it's true there.

Right.

And it's not only true there.

It was true back when Jesus was around.

And it's also true today.

Right.

Like whatever's true is true in the past will be true in the future.

And it's true despite cultural norms.

Right.

And so you brought up.

So so having that kind of grid in mind, let me also just address you brought up the issue of like the church building.

I would say that's a nonstarter in the sense that it's a it's a maybe that's not the right way to say it.

I don't think for my friends at the Missy Alliance, the argument is the church building is important or matters there.

They don't hold on to space in that way.

They don't hold on to the church building traditionally.

They would they would say like Missy Alliance would align more closely to our friends at the Tampa Underground, the Kansas City Underground.

Yeah, they would align to those guys who are doing like like a lot of what Tampa and you and I both have friends at both, you know, Rob Wagner, you know, yeah, all the folks that both of those organizations, they literally live in the neighborhoods.

And they would not consider the Sunday morning gathering the most important part of what they do as a church.

They would consider what they do in the neighborhoods, the community that they're building, the relationships that they're building.

They would consider that the most important thing because it's informed by incarnational mission.

So then yeah, so then I think the question is like, you know, from a truth perspective, like what is right?

What is righteous?

What is true?

Can, you know, can we do?

So I think we've established like, yes, you can do good discipleship from a digital perspective.

I would ask it in this way too.

If Jesus lived in 2025, would he be doing digital missions?

Would Jesus join the WhatsApp groups?

Would he, would he be blogging?

Would he be on a YouTube channel?

Would he be?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, would he be leveraging digital strategies?

Yeah.

I mean, let's, let's look at, let's look at Christ strategy of what, what he did.

He, he would, he would stand on a boat and he would, he, I mean, this is, this is Luke six, right?

You know, he would stand on a boat and preach to thousands.

He would, he had followers, um, coming after him because Jesus was meeting physical needs.

And then he was doing this to connect with people and, and, and through his connections.

Um, okay.

He had literally had thousands of people and, but he didn't, he didn't keep those people.

He, he filtered them down.

He, in Luke six, he started saying crazy things like eat my flesh and drink my blood, which really caused and challenged a lot of people.

Luke 66, I think says that even some of the disciples were challenged as a result of what he was saying.

Yeah.

And, and what came of that was this core group of people, the 72, which actually became the church that we know today.

They, they were equipped and were multiplied and, and, and sent out.

Paul, I definitely believe what would be utilizing this stuff.

I mean, if, if you actually look what Paul did, Paul was, was a digital pastor without the internet.

He was planting and resourcing, uh, writing letters through the Roman road.

Hey, I'm sorry.

I can't be with you in person.

I look forward to the day when we can be together.

But until then, here are my words of, of challenging, uh, admonishment and encouragement.

I can give to you.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's a freaking digital strategy without a smartphone device.

And so if, if you, if you look at, I mean, this is going to, when I say this, people look at me like I'm weird, but, but think about it.

We carry a, a Bible.

This is the Holy word of God.

This was written thousands of years ago.

And so, and, and that's, that's the core foundation of our beliefs.

So what was said years ago is, is still impacting us.

It has literally, uh, crossed time and space.

It was written on another continent millennia ago, and it's still impactful in our lives.

The idea of asynchronous ministry, the idea of doing digital remotely, it's nowhere near as foreign as, as what we're already doing.

Like we talk about incarnational ministry, but, and this is what I don't understand, Jesse.

Like I would love, cause I don't, I never understood this about incarnational.

We worship a God we've never seen, um, a, a, a, a Christ who was the sacrifice for us on another continent millennia ago and a Holy Spirit who we cannot touch, but argue that we can feel.

And so like believing all of that, to be honest, the idea of doing, uh, digital ministry and discipleship via WhatsApp, that almost seems easy compared to the other stuff that we, we take as normal.

Like I, I, and this is, it's funny.

You've, you've talked about some of our, our micro church friends.

This is literally the conversation that I, that I've had with them.

It's, you know, you, you, you believe in incarnational, but at the same time, we also believe this, this thing about God.

And, and how would Jesus use digital?

Of course, you know, if, if Jesus were alive today, I don't know that Jesus would be able within his three years of ministry to get to every continent, to see it spread.

But he would use whatever method he could to connect and start and build.

I actually believe digital.

It's, it's interesting.

We operate digital more as a micro church strategy than a mega church.

I'm not, I'm not trying to get thousands of people to, to watch what I'm doing.

Um, you know, it was interesting.

Seth Godin's a, I tell the story often, but Seth Godin is one of the top marketing brains in the planet right now.

He's a, uh, he's an influencer.

He's a thought leader in, uh, in America lives in New York city.

And, uh, he's written dozens of books, New York time bestseller.

Uh, but somebody asked Seth Godin, how do I get my message heard around the world?

Okay.

How do I get my message heard around the world?

This was back in 2019.

Seth Godin said on his podcast, a billion people don't care about anything you have to say.

If you want to change though, if you want to get your message heard around the world, you got to think smaller.

And it, okay.

A hundred million, 10 million, 1 million, a hundred thousand, 10,000.

Like how small do I have to think?

Seth actually said to get your message heard around the world, craft a message for an individual.

Get that person to see it, hear it, understand it.

And they get that individual to tell someone else that one of the top marketing innovator leaders in the planet right now is not talking about reaching billions.

He's talking about reaching an individual and seeing it multiply.

By the way, it's the same way Jesus did his church.

And so are we learning from the church?

Are we learning from Jesus at a marketing level?

Maybe.

I love seeing when marketing crosses biblical principles like that.

But it's a, can we do that model digitally?

Certainly.

We do that all the time.

And with discipleship and community to follow that and to see it multiply, like we can reach people that carnational ministry, the current interpretation of carnational ministry can't reach doing what we're doing.

And think about it, Jesse, like, you know, I've got my smartphone here.

Um, we've got people that are spending eight to 10 hours on this.

Like, okay, you know, you've got your first place, second place, first place is home, because that's where you sleep.

Second place is usually work, uh, because that's where, that's where your job is.

And you go, I mean, this is, if this isn't second place, this is third place, right?

Because we're spending so much time on this device.

And if we could leverage that time to, to build relationships, if we could leverage that time and that focus in community, if we can use this tool to, to strengthen relationships, instead of we'll come to a physical building or come to a meetup, let's, let's have coffee.

I mean, we can reach people that we can't have coffee with.

We can disciple people literally around the world doing this.

We can have that one-on-one conversation with them at an intimate level.

And that, that's what we're seeing.

And we're seeing God move through that.

Why not use this to build community?

I mean, that, that's really the challenge.

People, people are building community online digitally and virtual and virtual reality, whether we want to or not.

It's just really a matter of, are we the church going to go into these dark spaces?

Or are we going to be hands off and be, no, I'm sorry.

God doesn't operate in, in the, in digital and the metaverse.

Yeah, that's good.

Would it be an overstatement or an oversimplification to say that digital is a means that really what we're saying here is that digital is a means to an end?

I would say that, that digital is a means to the end.

It's a tool.

It's a means to the end.

It's, it's not, it's not the end.

It's the means.

I do agree with that.

Um, so kind of like what you were saying when Paul wrote letters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You were saying Paul wrote letters.

So, so in Paul's day, he's pen, he's putting pen to paper.

Um, and that was a tool that was a means to an end, which that means to an end obviously has had long-term impact.

Right.

Cause today we read his letters, you're saying digital is a means to an end.

It's a tool that can be used.

Um, I would also say, you know, and maybe this is an oversimplification of what missions is, but my understanding of what missions.

Starts with is going to where the people are at.

And you can't do good missionary work.

If you're not willing to go where the people are at.

When I was a kid growing up every year, the church would have missions week and we'd invite all the missionaries that we supported to come.

And I used to hear amazing stories.

Yeah.

As a matter of fact, my freshman college roommate, his dad was martyred in the jungles of Columbia.

Uh, he was one of the men who was martyred by some of the tribes.

Um, his dad was a missionary with new tribes missions and, um, very similar to the Jim Elliot story.

You know, and I had a roommate in college who told me that story about his dad and, and, and, you know, got very close to it.

Missions has always been at the heart, this idea of going to where the people are at meeting them in their context.

Right.

Right.

And it seems somewhat obvious to me that if people in our current day and age are somewhere.

Digitally that to meet them, there is good missions.

It's good missionary work.

Yeah.

Right.

But I think that perhaps in this conversation, there is, there can be like in any conversation, there can be extremes, right?

The extreme, you know, one extreme can be to avoid digital altogether.

Right.

To be somewhat, um, Amish in our kind of theology and to say like all technology is bad and to, you know, but, but then I think if we're honest with ourselves, at least for my missile Alliance friends, if we're honest, like we're already there.

Like we're already using smartphones.

We already use digital technology for a lot of other things.

If we swing all the way to the other side, we might say, well, we're only going to do digital and never pursue any kind of in-person connection.

Right.

And, and, and this is where I might, if I was going to like put a stake in the ground, I would, I would probably create some law.

Probably create some levels and say, you know, in-person is always better than digital.

Like for example, you and I do live 20 minutes away from each other.

We live in the same city and we do in-person meetups.

Sometimes we'll meet at the Starbucks that you mentioned there by Baptist hospital and Kendall.

I always enjoy our in-person gatherings.

And probably, probably a little bit better than our zoom calls or, you know, digital video calls.

But, but, but the fact that we have the opportunity to do these video calls really helps us accelerate our work.

So it's a tool that helps us be more efficient.

Yeah.

But I'd rather be with you in-person.

I mean, next week you and I are going to fly to Dallas.

We're going to be in-person together.

We're going to be meeting with people in-person.

That's always a great experience in-person.

So to me, it's like the, there's a balance, like the way that you re I guess my conclusion, if I was going to have a conclusion in this conversation, not that we have to conclude, but I would just say the way you is saying rectify that feel like that's not a good word to use, but is the way you reconcile incarnational mission with digital.

Is that you, you, you have a proper view of digital as a tool or as a means to an end with, with understanding the heart behind incarnational mission.

Yeah.

And you live within the balance, or, you know, if you're more pessimistic, you live within the tension of, we got to meet people where they're at.

And since people mostly are online, you start there, we go there with hopes that yes, in-person is always a better experience, but sometimes you don't get the luxury of in-person.

So you meet people where they're at and you begin, and, and because the tool allows you to build a level of community that is impactful.

Yeah.

Maybe not as impactful as if it was in person, but it is impactful.

There are, the evidence is clear that there are millions of people coming to faith, especially like, and again, this goes back to the truism.

Like, like if it's true now, it's true later.

And if it's true here, it's true there.

If we look at the work that's happening in the Middle East, this is the way people are coming to faith and being discipled in the Middle East.

It's all digital.

Yeah.

The, the, the, the, there's using the tool of digital.

There are strengths.

First off, let me back up.

Even in digital relationships, even in digital churches, even in digital discipleship, there's value in physical.

Like we're, we're very few are saying digital in nothing.

Like even the video game churches, they, they gather together.

I can tell you virtual reality churches that I've met, uh, together and people have literally flown across continents, uh, across the Atlantic and Pacific ocean to gather together with a, an American church, um, that they experience in virtual reality.

Like there's, there's value in physicality.

I think the idea is with digital only is that the physicality is not every Sunday or, um, it's not, it's not, it's helpful, but it's not needed.

You know, in, in my leadership team, all of us have never have been in the same space at the same time.

Literally, I've got six people that are on my senior leadership team are on different continents, probably four different time zones if I did the math and like we've, we've never, all of us been collectively together.

And so, but that doesn't mean that we can't function.

That doesn't mean that discipleship can't exist.

It just means that it's, it's different.

It's interesting.

Actually, one of our, one of our, um, one of our micro church friends, uh, told me once, he says, he says to me, Jeff, he's like, I'm a believer in digital discipleship now.

Why?

This is maybe 22.

He says, I'm a believer in digital discipleship now.

He's, I was like, why?

And he's like, well, we've started using it as zoom and compliment the physical.

And, and, and what we've seen is the micro church leader.

Well known.

He says, what we've seen is that people will, um, rarely cancel on us digitally.

He says, we get a higher percentage of physical cancellations.

Uh, people won't show up or, you know, something happens.

They, they can't figure out the kids.

Uh, and so, but digital, it's like people rarely cancel.

We're doing the meetings after the kids go to bed at nine or 10 at nine.

It's later and it's, it's yeah.

Okay.

It's more convenient to do it digitally.

Uh, and, and so like the idea of engagement, it's, it's easier.

I don't kind of hold my kids across the city or figure out childcare.

Like it's, it's done in the house.

The other thing that he said, the other thing that he said is people, because it's so much

easier, people are actually willing to meet multiple times a week and go through it quicker.

Um, and not, not that discipleship's a race, but the idea is that they're engaging in the

conversations more.

And so, you know, that's a super interesting point that you're making because how many times

have we sat in church and we heard, I saw a meme one time on social media that was making

fun of like almost every church when they talk about small groups, like in-person small groups,

they reference it as like do life together.

Yeah.

But if we're honest, you're not really doing life together.

You're just meeting once a week for an hour or two in somebody's home.

You're not really sharing.

Like rarely do people share the truth about what's going on behind the scenes in their life.

We're just answering questions from the sermon that was preached on Sunday, sharing some very

surfacy prayer requests.

We might have some good guacamole and chips and then we leave.

But digital does provide a means to do more life together because of the fact that you can

quickly jump in and out of meetings and calls and messages and really share the truth of

because of, yeah, because it's, it's quicker, it's faster.

It's easier to do that as opposed to a once a week hour gathering where people aren't actually

being, yeah.

This is a tool, you know, and this, this can, you know, I can push a couple buttons and I

can make an attempt to broadcast my message in front of a billion people.

I don't think a billion people are going to be interested, but I can do it.

I can use this tool to build a relationship with someone that's literally on the opposite

side of the planet from me.

And I have a one-on-one relationship with someone.

I can use this tool to reach someone that's literally across the street from me and can use

it for that purpose.

And so, you know, and that, I think that what incarnational people miss about digital is

the intimacy that's possible with this tool.

They're seeing the, the typical church model that's trying to broadcast the church service

that is, that's all about reach and not about relationship because that's, that's the typical

model.

And this tool can do that.

I don't think that method, that strategy is effective for the church, but doing a, listen,

I mean, we're working with people right now that want to do a micro church strategy digitally.

I can tell you digital micro churches that exist on multiple continents and they've been successful.

I can tell you, Mike, a digital micro churches that have started campuses and actually locations

off of the ministry, digital only micro churches that actually spun off a physical campus because

the ministry was so strong.

Like there's, there's opportunities to explore this at a relational context.

And, you know, in the, in the arc, in the, in the incarnational world, I would say, I don't,

I don't, I don't speak enough of that language to really understand like how to make that difference.

But I would challenge incarnational leaders to really lean into the relational aspects to

better understand the community aspects of what digital is to dive into this 3.0 mentality

of recognizing community in those spaces and not trying to pull that out into a physical,

physical, but lean in and disciple more of that.

The, the pulling of people out of digital community into a physical relationship.

As a general rule, I have seen missional organizations globally try to do that too soon.

And as a result of that, people are disconnecting.

It's too big of an ask.

I don't trust this individual or this organization enough to meet with them physically.

I don't trust them enough to have a one-on-one conversation yet.

This is the role of community.

You lean into the community to build relationships and establish trust.

It's, it's not a microwave.

It's a crockpot approach.

And, and it's interesting.

Even the incarnational, even the physical micro churches, I've seen them try to use digital

as a microwave to quickly pull people into a relationship.

And it doesn't work that way.

You've got to lean into the community.

You've got to be okay with it.

You know, I tell my, my virtual reality friends, you want to talk to that avatar without a real name,

without a real identity, as long as possible.

Because digitally people will, are comfortable having hard, difficult conversations behind an avatar,

behind a, uh, uh, and, and social media handle behind it without sharing their real name.

When, when you, when you find out their real name, it actually kills the conversation.

It slows it down because now I know who you are without that.

Oh my gosh.

You, you can get so deep so quickly digitally.

And that's what we're finding across the board.

It's, it's not pull people into that relationship.

It's lean into digital as long as possible.

And then when there's trust established, then pull them into a physical relationship.

That one little shift would make night and day, but it causes it's calls for the, the incarnational people to recognize the power of the digital tools.

Turn it across the right way.

The digital tools, uh, to build relationships.

You know what this, what you just shared opened for me a whole nother aspect of this conversation.

Um, what I think what you're highlighting, Jeff, is that we are perfect.

We perpetually live in a, in a more dangerous world than ever before.

And the safety, um, barometer for people is so low that part of the reason.

It becomes so difficult sometimes to really grow your church or build a ministry or make disciples is because the resistance that people have because of the trust factor.

It's like, I don't know you.

I don't want you to know me.

Like in order for like, like, let's take community, the whole conversation around community.

The reason why most small groups suffer and struggle is because people aren't being real.

People desperately want to be known, but people are afraid to be known because they don't trust that they're going to be loved.

And so what you're bringing up is that like digital is a tool that helps us.

So the heart behind incarnational mission is, you know, pursuing people, loving people, serving people.

Let's move into their neighborhood.

But I could move into like, let's say like, I've got friends that live in like poor neighborhoods here in Miami for that purpose, right?

To serve that particular neighborhood.

But just because you moved into the neighborhood doesn't give you the right to their life.

You have to, you have to live there for a while.

You have to prove yourself.

You have to show over time that you're trustworthy, right?

And so what, what digital can be is that tool to help you move into people's neighborhoods and prove your trustworthiness and build relationship.

So that one day down the road, there's a community that fosters a kind of healthy discipleship.

So that people will come to, which it does like what you were going back to, you know, what Jay wrote in his book and Saddleback is that if you can impact people's lives digitally, it will impact their life physically.

Yeah.

It's because the people you disciple, they have family behind them.

They have neighbors they live next to.

Yeah.

It's, it's all about trust and using digital, using digital community to earn the trust.

Uh, and to do that, you gotta, you gotta, to be honest, you gotta listen more than you talk.

Uh, we, we, we tell people you gotta ask questions more than make statements.

Always use question marks, really never use a period.

And for the love of God, don't use an exclamation mark.

Like digital is, is not, you know, is not the platform to sit in at least initially and tell people on a soapbox, everything that's wrong with their life.

And that honestly, that's a lot of what the, the sermons come across as, as we're broadcasting this out on a, on a mega level.

Um, you know, uh, uh, you don't necessarily, some people will engage with it, but the majority will not.

And so, but having a conversation, building a relationship, learning about people, you know, we, we've adapted.

This is not a, uh, I guess it's kind of incarnational, but the blessed practices, uh, from, from Dave Ferguson, begin with prayer.

Um, listen, uh, eat together, uh, serve, and then share Jesus's story.

Uh, we actually wrote a book, uh, sharing Jesus online.com, but it's, it's on Amazon, but it's begin with prayer digitally, how to do that.

Begin with prayer, listen.

And then we talk about shared experiences, build relationships digitally with people in digital community, figure out how to serve them and then share the story.

The, the, the relational aspects of, of digital, once again, like it's the thing that we're, we're missing on the broad scale.

And, and for us to be more effective, it's not, it's not using digital as a megaphone or a microphone shelling, shouting out, getting the world to hear.

It's, it's much more about a whisper.

It's much more about a, a, uh, a starting a conversation, a dialogue.

And through that dialogue, you know, allowing the Holy spirit to, to do something, to guide the conversation, to make it much more, um, about the person that you're talking with.

And a relational point, rather than making it about your beliefs in how they're doing things that, that are wrong.

You got to earn trust.

Yeah.

Trust.

And that take, that takes time.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

The way I see it kind of, you know, to summarize like digital, right.

Being the tool, it's a trust building tool.

Like the, the, the, the reconciling factor and incarnational mission is that digital becomes the trust building tool or bridge to help foster the trust necessary for healthy community that leads to healthy discipleship.

Um, and in, in, in, in, in an increasing context in the world at which we live, it's more and more necessary.

Um, yeah.

If I was in a room full of our friends at Missy Alliance, I wouldn't say stop moving into the neighborhoods.

Hmm.

What I'd say is move into the neighborhoods, but then add, you know, add the, the digital tools to help you connect with those people in your neighborhoods.

Yeah.

To build those bridges and build trust so that those conversations, you know, can happen so that we can foster a level of community that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even people, if people are not ready for a three Oh lean into digital only community environment.

If you're not ready for that, which is okay.

Use at a two Oh mindset.

I'm moving into a community.

I'm trying to build relationships once again.

Okay.

Hey, you know what?

I'm moving into this neighborhood.

I want to connect with everybody.

And so I'm going to like sit outside on my front yard.

I'm going to do a barbecue.

I'm going to go hang out at the park and shake hands.

You will meet people that way.

Yeah.

But here, here's the reality.

The average American spends six to eight hours a day on this device.

They spend more time on this device than they do walking the neighborhood streets.

Then they do walk in the dog.

Then they do go into the parks.

Then they do playing with the kids in the front yard.

And so even if your goal is only in an incarnational mindset to use this tool to build relationships

digitally, to get to the point where you can, Hey, why don't you come over for dinner?

Like you're, you're crazy not to, but the thing that I would suggest is don't rush getting

people into having coffee or doing the barbecue on the street.

Some people will respond quickly.

Some people need to build trust digitally to get to that point.

And I would suggest praying through that, you know, the blessed mindset is begin with prayer

and listen.

You know, if, if you feel like God's leading you to do something quicker, go.

If you feel like God is, is, is challenging you maybe to build that relationship via digital, God

can move with your thumbs typing on an iPhone.

Um, you know, we, it's funny.

We talk about praying with thumbs all the time.

When people text you're like in a textbook or WhatsApp, you know, pray for me with a prayer

request.

I will actually type the prayer and not, not, not the praying emoji.

I will actually type it out in there.

Yeah.

Write it all out.

Yeah.

Write it all out.

Like God can move digitally.

People are grounded through those devices physically.

And if we're saying that God cannot move digitally, oh my gosh, like we've just, man has created

a device that God cannot use, that God cannot enter.

Like theologically that just opens up a whole other can of worms.

So God can move it using this stuff.

Don't be afraid to utilize it as a tool at the 2.0 mindset to build that community.

You're trying to physically, but you got to build trust using the digital tools to be more

effective.

Can you go back and just repeat the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, just make sure we caption some recording.

And yeah.

So a 1, 1.0 mindset is, you know, and this comes back in like the, the mid nineties, uh,

1990s, late 1990s.

It's the information age where people would put information on a webpage.

So your church would, if you're a micro church, you would build a webpage and you would try

to share it with people.

And, but the, the goal was not to do ministry digitally.

The goal was to get people connected to a, to a physical church location.

So a micro church, you would put out, uh, uh, an invite to, uh, a barbecue and you would

put it on Evite and send it out to everybody in the neighborhood and try to get everybody

to come to the physical building.

You're putting information online, but your ministry is, is happening, uh, physically.

And obviously that still happens today.

We still do that today, right?

Most churches, they've got that plan a visit page.

You know, our church services meet on Sundays at nine and 11 and, you know, and we've got

childcare and, you know, they're, so they're disseminating information.

It's a kind of a one way communication model.

Okay.

Yeah.

2.0, um, you know, now starts to empower individuals to talk with that and they're able to dialogue

somewhat, but the goal is still to drive people to a physical location.

1.0 was, um, organizations having the authority to 2.0 the social media age offers conversations

where now we're empowering individuals to talk, by the way, other people talking about your

ministry is far better than you as a pastor talking about your ministry.

Uh, but still with the 2.0 mindset, the, the goal was not to recognize community for what

it is, uh, an opportunity to build trust.

It was still driving to go to the physical building.

So we're, we're, we're getting other people, uh, a social media graphic that says, come to

our church service Sunday, 9:00 AM, or we're, we're asking people, Hey, invite your friends

to this barbecue.

And they would, they would take that link from evite.com and send it out on their networks,

trying to pull people into the physical mindset.

Does that make sense, Jesse?

You good?

Makes sense.

Yeah.

And then the 3.0, uh, mindset.

This is much more, I mean, at the technological side, this is virtual reality.

This is metaverse.

This is immersive.

This is blockchain and crypto.

But at the core of all of this, I would boil it down to a, a, a deeper understanding

of digital community and, and how people can exist, um, and can operate and build relationships

and, and quote unquote live.

Okay.

That may be controversial, but they're existing inside these digital communities.

And I'm talking about WhatsApp.

I'm talking about Slack.

I'm talking about Facebook groups and talking virtual reality.

I'm, I'm even talking video games where, where they're spending hours upon hours engaging

and building relationships and quote unquote living in these spaces.

And even if you're, if you're in the physical, and I would argue just to back up, you can build

relationships digitally.

Those relationships can lead to people finding Christ digitally.

We see that we find discipleship even happening digitally.

So the idea that you can't utilize that God cannot utilize digital community for discipleship

and evangelism, we're already seeing that's happening.

So why not use that tool?

The people that are leaning into digital community at the three O level, oftentimes are not the

people that would come to a physical building or are cautious about physical relationships

in general.

And so using digital to, this is a bad term and, uh, I would want to change this, but it's

boil the frog slowly.

It's, it's take time to build the relationship before you, you go into Christ before

you, you implement that because what you're, what you're going to challenge them to do.

There has to be relational equity.

There has to be trust behind that.

And so that's our, our stance of it.

You're using digital community either to do discipleship as a standalone because your, your

church believes in three O, uh, we believe in digital community, but if your church isn't

there yet, your organization, you are not there yet, I would challenge you to maybe use digital

community a little bit to start to build a relationship more before you get them into physical

space.

Like don't be adverse to digital community.

Uh, instead recognize that it does have a purpose in it.

Like maybe you're 2.5, you're not buying the whole thing about I'm going all in on digital

community and every digital community deserves a church.

You're not there.

That's cool.

If you're still driving to physical, there's benefits for you in digital community.

Uh, and that's really the opportunity for you to, to multiply what you're doing because

you're going to reach people in digital community.

You're going to build trust in digital community that are not engaging with you right now in

the physical realm.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, kind of a practical application of this that I see for pastors is similar to what

you do, right?

You have a open office that you do pretty regularly throughout the week.

Um, you stream that on YouTube, right?

And I think you're streaming that on multiple platforms, but the, the open offices.

Yeah.

I do open offices and I do streams.

So streams I'll do on YouTube and then open offices.

I, and my team are just in a Google meet, um, room.

And, uh, so like this morning I had a, a Google meet, uh, where I had, uh, someone from,

uh, uh, yeah, someone from Nigeria, someone from Sudan, someone from Czechoslovakia and someone

from, uh, actually here in Florida, not that far from us in Naples.

And so, yeah, I mean, and it was, they, they wanted to, they wanted to ask some questions.

They shared their stories.

They're, they're interested in being part of our, our equipping.

Um, but what open offices does is it makes you available, uh, where, where people can, can come

in and sometimes I'll have nobody.

Sometimes I'll have, you know, eight to 10 people.

And, and it's a, it's a circus trying to have conversations and in either way, it's fun.

Uh, but yeah, I do, um, I'll probably do open offices two to three times a week.

And my, my team does it periodically throughout the month.

Yeah.

To me, the practical application is like, what if pastors, um, had open offices, you know,

essentially they're moving into someone's digital neighborhood and saying, I'm a, I'm just

going to sit on this like picnic bench and I'm available to chat and just have conversation

and build relationship.

Yeah.

You know, and then they let everybody know, like I'm here, I'm available.

Right.

Which is, to me feels like very incarnational mission to say to people in the neighborhood,

I'm available.

I'm here.

No agenda.

Just my door's open.

Right.

And, and, and, but it's, you're doing it in a way where people don't have to show up physically

to the church building to meet with you.

You know, you're, you're going to them.

Yes.

Just saying, Hey, I'm a, I'm a click away.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, I think that could be really powerful way for pastors to live a kind of incarnational

missional ethos.

That's combined with digital.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is good.

It's been a good conversation.

Yeah.

That's making yourself accessible.

Um, which is huge in digital.

Don't come with, if you do that, don't come with the script.

Don't come with an agenda.

Don't push your next sermon series.

Honestly, don't even push small groups.

Like listen.

Well, even that, some of that is that some of that, I think when I hear you say 1.0, 2.0,

3.0, I think the ethos behind the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 is like 3.0, you know, 1.0 is like, I have an agenda that I'm pushing and I'm just trying to get it out there for people to know about it.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, 2.0 is like, I still have an agenda and I want you to know about it, but I'm empowering people in our community to help promote that agenda.

Right.

But then 3.0, 3.0 is a much more.

Hands off.

Open handed, holistic, like, let's just build, let's just build a relationship and see what God does and let's connect and let's, um, yeah.

Yeah.

It's yeah.

It's as digital evolves.

I mean, obviously what's behind digital, like we don't get from 1.0 to 3.0.

It's not like there's a, uh, uh, AI technology.

That's like making them at them.

It's people who are developing the technologies.

It's culture that shifts the technologies.

And we see God using it.

Yeah.

In a way that makes a huge impact.

Yeah.

3.0.

It's so good.

Jesse, your, your, your interpretation and you're adding of one, two and three.

Um, you know, 3.0 is a decentralized mindset.

And so, yes, it's not, it's not pushing my agenda.

It's, it's what is God calling you to do and how can I help?

And so like having that decentralized mindset digitally, remember it's about small conversations.

It's not big conversations.

It's, it's, it's whispers.

It's not, it's not megaphones.

And so as, as a result of this, oh my gosh.

And this, this is where it's like incarnational leaders are, are my opinion.

Are looking at digital through the wrong lens.

They're looking at through the lens of how the mega church is operating and they're trying

to apply that to their ministry, but the tool is a tool.

It can be used in different ways and looking at it through a different lens in a different

light.

Oh my gosh.

The power it was, I've actually, it's funny for, for a season, I was actually really driven

to do a cohort of, of micro church leaders to help them understand how to do digital better.

Because they're, my opinion, they're missing so much power and so much potential.

And, and, and I'm not, I'm not trying to be insulted or anything.

They're just looking at it through the wrong lens.

And, and it, and it's a pivot of mindset.

They're seeing, they're seeing the tools as weapons.

And we're trying to highlight and say, no, the tools aren't weapons.

They're gardening tools.

Yeah.

Oh, that's good.

These are gardening tools.

These are gardening tools.

And we can cultivate a beautiful ecosystem.

If we use the tools properly.

Certainly many people have taken gardening tools and turned them into weapons of warfare.

But just because somebody has taken a pick or an ax and turned it into a weapon of warfare,

doesn't mean that's how you have to use it.

And we, I would advocate and say that what's, what we're trying to do here is highlight how the tools are actually meant to be used.

That they're more aligned with incarnational mission than perhaps they had considered.

Yeah.

Hey everybody, Jeff here wrapping up.

I hope you understood and gained new insight on the web one, web two, web three mentality.

Not just on how it's, it organizationally informs how it pushes agendas organizationally.

It pushes agendas through individuals and maybe even starts to recognize the decentralized mindset of web three.

That was my, wow, that was my aha moment when Jesse made that spin and applied that towards the end.

And so listen, if you're incarnational ministry, if you're a micro, I really do believe you're missing something here.

Physical churches, I think you're missing something here.

If you're not even comfortable with web three going all in, consider a two five where you're just leaning a little more into digital community.

And, and I'll bet you will see a massive result from that.

Reach out to us at the church digital.

Of course we would love to help along the way, but I'm going to land the plane for Jesse from digital missions project and the TCD board.

This is Jeff with the church digital.

Thanks for hanging out with us today on the stream and we'll see you next time on the show.

Have a good one.

Have a good one.