EP 331 - Questions - Why Are There So Few Women in Digital Ministry?

All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Church Digital Podcast. We're doing a live recording

here. Episode 331. I'm excited about the conversation coming up. Actually, I'm getting

some action on this conversation in our WhatsApp channel, talking about the role of ministry

and really the lack of women that are currently speaking in and leading in digital ministry

circles. And so we've got a lineup of some ladies coming in. As a matter of fact, Amanda

Souza said hello in chat earlier just a second ago. I want to give a shout out to some of

the other people hanging out with us in chat. So Edith, Steve, appreciate you coming in.

Amanda as well. And any of the others that are out there, we'll be keeping an eye on chat.

So feel free to ask questions as we're going through this. Engage in chat. We'll be sure

to see you and dialogue with you through this conversation. I want to say up front, talking

about women in ministry, I don't have answers. I'm probably more of the problem than the solution

towards this. And we do want to draw attention not only to the issue and the problem of what's

here. And I don't know that we can solve the problem today, but maybe start to take some

practical steps towards how can we really engage and involve more women in digital ministry moving

forward. And so looking forward to this conversation. Before we get there, up here, right there,

point finger that way. It's so hard for me to do this backwards. I don't know if you have

that problem. But we have our missionary, our digital missionary conference coming up here

for April 2nd. Missionary.digital is the website. It is a free conference, maybe at seven hours

in time, six or seven hours at this point. We've got keynotes. There's been so much popularity

centered around our breakouts. We had to add a whole other breakout session for this to allow

people opportunities to engage in the breakouts. But here's the cool thing. We just passed 500 registered

people. We're hoping for 1,000. For the conference, we've just registered 500 people. And the really

cool thing, 56 nations. I literally counted them in the database today. One by one. Went through the

entire spreadsheet. 56 different nations represented in those 500 people that are at the conference.

And so we're literally seeing a gospel, a digital global movement happening right here, starting

right here through the church digital. And so if you're interested in signing up on that conference,

missionary.digital, it's coming up April 2nd, right around the corner. So register on demand. If

you're not able to catch it live, register anyway, because you've got to register to see it on demand.

And so register, please get connected and stay tuned to what's happening at the church digital.

And so I tell you what, I'm going to, I'm going to move off the commercial aspects of this and

bring on the, the, the women, the ladies for this, this conversation here. We're already getting

some, some shout outs here. Pastor Susie may be a little biased in this conversation. We'll draw

attention to this here a little bit. Yo, so pumped for this conversation. Ian Kirk, who's not as biased

into this, but good topic, both digitally and physically. Ian's a long-term friend. So is Pastor

Susie, which actually, let me introduce first off into the conversation, Amanda Souza, who knows

Pastor Susie relatively well. Amanda, you want to explain a little bit?

Yeah. Well, hello, I am Amanda. Pastor Susie is my husband, so that's why I know him decently

well. Hopefully more than decently, actually. We've been married for over 10 years now, but

yeah, we, we started a church called XP Church. Well, wasn't that, it wasn't called that when

we started it, but it is, we just changed the name of the church this past year. But yeah,

so we, we, we together a church for gamers online, um, called XP Church and I am the executive lead

pastor. So I very much work alongside my husband. Um, and I basically do all the executing of the

things in a very, very short way, but that is a little bit of me. Yeah. So, so basically, uh, Susie's

the pretty face and you get all the work done. That that's pretty much how, when I look at XP

Church, that's, that's what I think about. You're, you're running the thing in the background,

uh, making Susie look good. So, so appreciate that. And, uh, xpchurch.com, uh, more, more

information over there. Uh, glad, glad to have you here, uh, Amanda, uh, Nicole Howard, uh,

next up on my screen. Uh, Nicole's been doing a lot of work with the church digital for years

now. Now it feels like Nicole, maybe you want to tell them a little bit about you and your ministry.

Yes. So, Hey, Nicole Howard here, Gen Z, Gen Alpha Catalyst. Um, I do a lot of stuff as Jeff

said, so, but the primary stuff is youth and kids. Um, so I do have, uh, Pathfinders with the

support of this network. We were able to launch that, which is global. Anybody can use it anywhere.

So kids fully have access to Jesus in a digital realm, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Um,

so I'm just, I'm really enjoying being here as a digital missionary.

Awesome. Love, love that. It's been a lot of fun working, uh, with Nicole and, and exploring really

digital discipleship in, uh, at, at a global scale centered around Gen A and Gen Z. And, uh,

you know, I, I, I, it's interesting. We've actually been having like a lot of kids and

students, students, more of the right word, you know, high school kids starting to come into,

to TCD. And, and, and, and I love, I mean, I love my kids. My kids are that age. Um, not,

not so much other people's kids. And so even learning from Nicole, like how to handle, um,

and, uh, and do some of that. I clearly remember the moment in my life when God said, Jeff, you are

not a youth pastor. And that was like a very audible moment for me. And so even beyond that,

how are we embracing and working with these kids digitally? It's, it's, it's a fun part to be a

part of. And also here globally, it's, it's been a lot of fun to see, uh, and both Sarge's, uh,

ministry really expand, you know, and I feel like I first met you when you were, uh, still at, uh, at

the, the, the church you were at for a while and, and, and growing a digital ministry that also,

that actually kind of left the physical church and stood on its own. And, and, and now you're,

you're discipling people globally with the, with a strong presence in Africa. So, and maybe tell

them a little bit about your ministry. Yeah, I'm Anne Bosarge and I have the opportunity,

the privilege to lead an organization called Digital Discipleship. And we work around the globe

to reignite a passion for discipleship. So we do that in a couple of different ways. We do an online

women's and men's ministry that is called Becoming More. We also do daily discipleship in the online

chapel. And we actually have a digital forward child sponsorship organization where we put our

discipleship into action through child sponsorship in Uganda. So we, um, operate on Facebook primarily

and WhatsApp as well. Awesome. It's been so exciting to see that, that organization grow. And, and even as

we've started to the church digital extend globally and deal with contextualizations and, and, and things

like that, it's been, uh, we've brought Anne alongside to coach some of our leadership and, and, and learn,

uh, from some of the work that, that she's doing at a global scale. And so as we're getting into this,

I would love to draw. And it's interesting just now, pastor D, uh, coming in, who's also, um, uh, a long

time friend of the church digital just comes into the house. And so it was funny. I actually, I told

pastor D I was like, probably should have had you come on this thing as well, because she is so,

uh, vocal and, and, and so strong as, as a, as a female pastor in a house of his glory as a,

as a digital church, but doing this decade almost if, if not more. And so you've got a lot of, uh, long-term

women who are represented on this screen, but, but really I would suggest maybe even this just open up the

conversation. Um, there, there's, uh, um, some difficulty, some, some hesitancy. I was telling Amanda

actually before this, this, the, the convo, like before we started streaming, you know, I, I book conferences,

design the digital missionary conference. I, I book conferences all the time and I am constantly,

okay. Like who's out there in, in, in female space, who's doing something. And, and, and like,

like men, I don't have to assist. I don't want to make this about me, but men, I don't have to look

hard. Women, I often find like, I have to really dig in and dig through the weeds to try to find,

do you know somebody, do you know somebody what's going on to, to really start, start to get down

where, um, it's, it's obviously a lot more of a, it feels like it's more male dominated

ministry area. And I would even call out, I love my YouTube subscribers. Thank you for this. No guilt

implied. Um, YouTube tells me analytics wise that 97% of my subscribers to the church digital are male,

97%. Like I have to work hard. It feels like to get 97% of men to engage and no women, but we're very

open to, to this. And so like, I just would love to maybe start the conversation, uh, with you all.

Uh, do you feel this tension of being like an, in a male dominated environment? Let me just open up,

let anybody share as they feel like, like, um, what do you feel or see when you look at, uh, being a,

a woman in digital ministry today? Amanda, you want to kick us off? I'll let, I'll make you the guilty

one, uh, up front here and, uh, and let's get the others to engage in.

Um, yeah, sure. So, uh,

I,

I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say, I don't see

a lot of the issues.

physical ministry, online, digital ministry, like they're just, you don't see many women

represented. And I, I would say it's just a problem that we have in general. Um, and I ask

myself that I have, I have such a packed answer. So I'm so hesitant to start. Cause I don't like,

once I get going, like I, I have a hard time. I have a lot to say on this. Um, so I don't want

to like start off, but I would say I would, yeah, just to simply start off. Like, I really just think

that it is just an issue in your physical churches and your, in your typical, like, you know, brick

and mortar ministries, you know, and it translates online. Um, you know, yeah. So it's, I'm having a

hard time answering that without going off on my tangent. I want to, you know, I don't want to just

go off and take over, but. So you're going to save the bullets for, for a little bit. That's cool.

Well, I respect that. Thank you. Um, uh, Nicole, what, what are you, I cut you off earlier. I

apologize. What were you going to say? No, I was good. I was definitely thinking, I was like,

okay, not all of us at the same time. When has that ever happened that three women in the room

didn't have something to say at the same time? I'm just like, let's get it. Um, so yeah, you know,

aside from, I love how Amanda kicked that off because it's almost become, it has become a

societal expectation. We hear ministry, they're expecting the male version of it. Um, and then

for the lack of leadership representation, we don't have anyone out there doing it to say,

okay, it's possible for me to go do it. So where, who's, who's guiding me if I'm guiding everybody

else, who's going to feed into me if I'm feeding everybody else. So you, you have this place where

you're like, I'm hesitant to go out there and do that. And so you can't find us because

there's no one out there for us to come under to be represented. Yeah. Uh, and you would agree

with that? Absolutely. I would agree with that. And I think, you know, I never knew that being

a pastor, that leading a ministry like this was something that I was able to do. You know,

I grew up in a, in an environment where that was a man's job. And so it didn't even occur to me. Like

when I was a young child, I didn't say I want to grow up and be a pastor. Um, but yet here I am

doing something that I didn't even know was available to me in those, in those formative times. It wasn't

until, you know, much later in life that I realized, oh, God has a calling on my life. And it's more

than what I have served in ministry. Um, it looks different than what I thought it could possibly

be. And so I think, you know, from my situation, I didn't even know that that was something that was

available to me as a woman. And so, you know, just like you said that it's, um, we don't have those

kinds of examples to look to many of us. And especially in the digital space, because that is

so new, we have even fewer examples. So. Yeah. Um, and, uh, excuse me, not, not, not an pastor D,

uh, shares here, uh, feels like all of ministry is male dominated. Uh, the last industry to accept

women in general. It's interesting. I never actually considered that I male dominated. Yes.

The, the last in industry to, to really, to really accept that, uh, does that resonate across the

crowd? As you look at that, the last industry to, to accept women, um, how, how let's, let's be

personal here for a second. How does that make you feel? Like how, how do you respond to maybe that

idea? Oh, can I take it ladies? Go ahead. So we're going to take it biblically. And if y'all,

if I'm wrong, y'all tell me, but the Lord said that the first shall be last and the last shall be the

first. So it's coming. And I hope that our male counterparts are ready.

Uh, Oh, I'm suddenly very afraid. Wow. Um, so what do we is, is the problem as was, was described that

there was no, you know, little Ann, uh, as a child had no vision for, for wanting to do something like

this because it wasn't on the table. You know, I, I tell the story. I wanted to be a digital pastor

when I was 12 years old as, as a, as an eighth grader, um, 1988, 89. And so like, I've, I've had

that vision for 25, 35 years of my life. Um, but is, is, is, is the problem really that it just wasn't on

the table? The girls didn't know that that was an option. Like, is, is that the, is that the source

of this? Are there other things that we need to look at?

I think I would say for me that that is definitely where it started, but then what I needed was the

opportunity to have some mentors in my life that kind of rewired my thinking around that area. Um,

and mentors that were men because, you know, most pastors, most people in ministry are men. And so

just in general, what I needed in order to shift my thinking were men that gave me that opportunity

opportunity to step into my pastoral calling that I didn't even, they recognized it in my life before

I did. Um, and we need more of those men to be fostering up women and calling out the calling that

is on their lives and then making space for them to live that out. Um, because without that space,

without that renewing of our minds, if we've been told that we can't, that this is not available to us,

then we don't even know any better. We don't even, we can't even see that that is a possibility.

Yeah. Yeah. And that pathway to, uh, the pathway to leadership is not designed with a female in

mind. The types of supports that I would need would be different from the types of supports

that my counterpart would need. Um, so just even in looking at that, like how are, how are you set up

to, uh, assess leadership within this community of believers that are given the mantle of pastoral

ship? And then let's just add that it's digitally, like we're not adding, we're, we're stating and

maintaining that it is digitally. So there, there is not a process for that. So I may have the world's

greatest mentor, renowned book writer, but he doesn't know how to lead me digitally, nor as a woman.

Hmm. There it's, and, um, pastor D says here, the persecution is real now. I actually, and I'm not,

and I'm not calling pastor D out, but I've, I've seen this word persecution a couple of times

and, and, and, and, and I'm just going to be honest right here. The male part of me, I love you,

pastor D the male part of me is like, Whoa, persecution. Like to me, that's a, that's a freaking strong word,

um, in that. Um, and so humbly I'm asking this question. Do you all feel persecuted? Do you feel

like there there's okay? Um, Amanda, I didn't even finish the question. You're shaking your head. Yes.

Amanda, talk to me a little bit. What are you, what are you feeling here at come when it comes to

persecution? Yeah. Um, I did switch my mic because I was told by my husband that it was the wrong one.

So do I sound okay now? You sound much better. And thank you, Pastor Susie for stepping in.

I had no idea. I had the wrong one. Um, okay, good. Anyways. Um, yes, I would agree with that

statement wholeheartedly. Um, I, uh, I have a similar story to Ann, but honestly it's kind of flipped.

So it's similar, but yet very different. I grew up in the assemblies of God, which does support women in,

in pastoral roles and whatnot. Um, granted every church is different. Um, and so I grew up, you know,

I saw examples of amazing, godly women in leadership and, you know, still struggling with

some persecution, even in a denomination that supports them. Um, but I was like, I can do this.

And I, for me, I just wanted to be a worship pastor. I went to school for worship ministry,

you know, and obviously sometimes God changes, you know, things unexpectedly. Never thought I would

be leading a church for gamers online. Um, but it wasn't until I became a pastor online that I was

like, oh, oh, I'm a controversy. Like people, people aren't for women pastors. People don't like

that I'm a pastor. Like, I didn't know that this was a thing. Like I didn't understand.

And then I really began to struggle with it because, you know, it was just how I was raised.

And I'll be honest, like, I just like, I didn't know anything different. And so I began to like

second guess myself, second guess my calling. And it wasn't until I studied myself and I went and I

went, you know, I was like, you know, I hear all of these voices. I hear all of these voices online,

you know, whether they're nice voices, unkind voices, um, just telling me what I can and cannot

do in ministry. I'm going to go and I'm going to figure this out for myself. And so I sought out,

you know, some, some women that I know who are in ministry and fight for women in ministry,

you know, reading books, studying scripture. And then I, I found confidence in scripture that,

yeah, like I, I can, I can be a woman in ministry, top ministry, like leadership positions,

like a pastor or, you know, anything of the like. Um, but I faced so much persecution.

I even faced persecution, like I would say like a week or so ago, um, because we do live streams

for our church and I was just like hosting service and there was somebody in chat spamming like second

Timothy two, you know, like all the verses of women and stuff. And, and I was like, I'm not even,

I'm just talking to people. Like I'm just here talking to people and I have people, you know,

spamming chat that literally happened like two weeks ago. I've had somebody join our discord server

in the church, you know, send me a DM again with the second Timothy two, and then like leave our

server, um, like immediately after. Um, and I'm like, who are you? Like, why? Like, what are you

trying to accomplish with that? And I had never faced all of this to the, to the extent that I have,

as I have being online. And because you're just, you're, you're open and available to the entire

internet, right. Where there's so many opinions, there's so many people with good, bad intentions,

you know, who can keyboard warrior and say whatever they want to you and feel like they have no, um,

I guess like, uh, repercussions to it or whatever. Um, granted it also happened to me in in-person

ministry before I even was remotely close to doing online ministry. Um, but I could go on again,

I could go on about it, but I would say, yeah, like there's definitely a lot of that floating

around and especially online. It is so easy for somebody to just like, you know, and hit send

and, you know, yeah, it's really frustrating. And Nicole, would you, would you agree with that,

that, uh, the keyboard warriors, so to speak, um, it's maybe escalated a little bit higher

in, in digital than in physical and go ahead. I would say for sure it has in my experience. Um,

the interesting thing for me is that I definitely started out in person before moving to digital

ministry and pastoring and things like that. And, you know, from the time I began moving into my calling

and stepping into my calling, I noticed that there were certain people that would speak

differently to me than they would to my male counterparts. Um, and, and when we move on to

digital, yes, there are those people that will just type out a comment, just not even knowing me,

not even listening to anything that I'm saying, but just type out that comment. But the beautiful

thing is that I can delete that comment and I can block that person, but in person, I cannot do that.

And so for me, the digital space is a little bit easier because, um, because there, you can create

more boundaries around it, but when you're in person, you, you just sometimes don't have anywhere

else to go. Right. And so, yes, I have definitely felt that. Um, but I have felt like it's easier.

It's more frequent, I would say in the digital space, but it's easier to create some boundaries

around the people that really want to engage that conversation. But most of them don't, um,

to your point, most of them do not. They just want to prove something and then leave. So there's no

kind of correspondence or discussion that goes on with that. But for sure, I have found that to be true.

Nicole, are you feeling that too?

Yeah, I, I feel that, you know, I'm listening. And when you said persecution, you know,

I think about all the missionaries that I saw come through in person in church, and they would

talk about persecution and it's, it's purpose is to stamp out a movement. And so if God, we know God,

not even if, but we know that God is using us and to embark upon this very different missionary field,

then the persecution has to come some way. Because if I feel safe and feel brave in this space to ask my

questions about Jesus, then there has to uprise a keyboard warrior to try to stamp out what's

happening. How else would you do war on the internet? And so warfare, just the same, which falls same in

persecution. If I'm being persecuted, it's time for warfare. It's preparation, letting me know that,

whatever message God has that's coming through me, it's going where it's supposed to go. And it's

doing what it's supposed to do because here comes persecution.

Wow. Well, I mean, you're, you're painting a graphic picture, uh, you're Pastor D, uh, the more

visible on, you're more visible online and the hater spammers and like also have easier access to you.

You know, the keyboard warrior that dropped the bomb and run, you know, I, I hear that and I'm like,

coward. Like if you're going to drop a bomb, at least stick around for the fight, um, stand up to

that. But I'm a man. So forgive me for that. Um, but let, let me ask in, in, in all seriousness,

digitally. And it's like all of you organizationally, and you probably have the best ecosystem

around you, but you know, Nicole, I know the church digitals played a big part in your ecosystem.

Um, Amanda, like you've got a team around you with, with XP church, but like in those moments,

when you're in the middle of this persecution, we're in the middle of this attack, where do you

go? How do you withstand this? Who, who, who do you talk to? How do you overcome that situation?

Pastor D, I would even love to know your take on that. So any of you ladies, how, how do you

withstand some of this persecution, some of these attacks?

I think for me, I have an amazing team, um, around me. And what I often find is that when I'm online,

um, before I even have the chance to respond to it, they are responding for me. And, and I just find

so much comfort in that. But then I also have sought out other women in ministry that I can go to,

to say, Hey, is it just me? Am I overreacting to this situation? You know, I don't want to be

considered that emotional woman that is taking things too seriously. Um, I, you know, I want to make sure

that I am level-headed, that I'm thinking clearly. And so to be able to have some other women in

ministry to go to for support has been absolutely a game changer. And then to have other people around

me that are speaking the truth to the lies, even on my behalf, even before I can get to the comments,

absolutely is, um, helps to protect my soul and helps to protect my mind from the things that I'm

reading. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that?

My aspects work a little differently. So, um, I, I picked this up from an in-person gathering.

When someone was getting ready to speak at this IRL gathering, the individual would go to the prayer

chapel and a group of people would be in there praying for that person. And then they would go

speak. And when they went to speak, there's always someone in that same prayer chapel praying over

them as they speak. And then when they come back, there's someone to pray them down. Um, so whenever

I have to do any type of ministry, there is a team of people praying over those dates before they even

get here. Then there's a team that prays over me. There's a team that's praying when it's happening.

And then there's a team praying me down. And even in the midst of that, the first and foremost is that

this is a mantle. We can't forget that. And with every mantle comes a host of heavenly angels.

They've got it covered. Y'all can do what you like. You're not going to get to me unless you come

through the father. And I don't think you're going to make it. You know? So I'm just like, okay. And then

I do have a spiritual mother. I do. I do. And I'm just like, Hey, just like Ann said, I'm like,

did I miss it? Or did they come for me? Like, you know, in kids' terms, you know,

I'm in youth ministry. I'm like, bet. So we level up, we fast, we pray some more and we come again.

I'm like, okay, let's try this again. Anything to add to that, Amanda?

Yeah. Um, for me, it's been huge to have my husband being so vocally and like, just obviously,

supportive of me being a pastor. Um, our team is, um, all for it as well. Um, our church, you know,

majority of the people in our church are, and there was actually, um, a few weeks ago, I preached, um,

on the topic of a woman's role in marriage. Um, funny enough, um, considering this conversation

today, it was, you know, uh, it was good, but our team was literally prepared. Um, just in case while

Amanda is preaching on this topic, and I don't preach often, it's very, very rare, but you know,

while Amanda is preaching, if there's anybody who comes in the chat, you know, spamming the usual,

like, you know, second Timothy, we are going to be ready to support her, have her back, um, and,

you know, correct that in the chat. And they, they were ready. They were ready. Um, surprisingly,

no one actually said anything, um, which I'm very thankful for, but yeah, knowing I have a team that

has my back. Um, I have an incredible mentor who is a pastor. Um, she has been huge, um, just a huge

encouragement, um, in my life. Um, I have friends who are also a ministry. Like I have a friend who's

literally a missionary, um, on her way to the mission field as we speak. Um, and so just surrounding

myself with women and having a team that has my back, my husband, it's just, all of that has been

huge for me. Yeah. I'm curious. And we're going to get to ukulele's comments here in a second,

but before I do that, does your support team need to understand digital? Like, you know, Nicole,

you're talking about your spiritual mother, uh, speaking this thing, and you're, you've got a,

a group of ladies that you work with, do they understand digital or is it just, they approve

of digital in that you're doing ministry? Like, are they digital savvy? I'm just wondering kind

of the strength of that because you're really, I mean, to be honest, you're kind of bucking the

system in two different areas. One, you're women and one in the second, you're doing it in a non-physical

environment. And so how much does that come into play as you're looking for a support system?

Nicole, you want to go first? Sure. You see where I'm like, don't do it. Okay. So, um,

yeah. So no, I would say no, because in the team, there's mixed people. There are people who

fully know what this means, what it looks like and are like proactively thinking what's going to come

against me. There are people that have no understanding of what I'm doing. They just know

that God has blessed me to do it. And this is how they can support me. And then you have those people

that know just enough to be dangerous. So the team is very, very mixed. And I feel like

we don't always know what the pastor is going to get up and preach on,

but we know it's going to be a message from God. That's where my team rests.

And does that resonate with you? For sure. And I think, you know,

one of the things that I wanted to do as I was stepping into this digital space was to invite

other women to come along with me. And, you know, I let them know early on, I'm like, I don't really

know exactly what this is going to look like, but let's do it together. And so there were three women

that started this organization from, um, from the ground up. And so definitely they understood

everything about all of the nuances of being digital and they have been involved, you know, very,

very intricately with that. Um, but also just for me, other women in ministry that just look out for my

heart. Um, you know, there's no digital component to that. Um, it's just looking out for me and my heart

and how I'm doing spiritually. And so I think both is important. I don't, you have to have a digital

understanding in order to understand what it's like to be a woman that works in a very male dominated

space. And so, and so I think it's both for me. Yeah. Ukulele says here, and I'm curious, uh, y'all's

take on this, uh, another layer things we offer for women at church are about marriage, parenting, and

prayer, not as often about leadership, deep Bible study, uh, et cetera. Um, would, would you all

agree to this or care to share an opinion on that? Uh, Amanda, you're shaking your head. Yes. Pretty

strongly. Why don't you kick it off? Yeah, no, I would definitely agree. Um, I think just churches in

general, um, yeah, there just needs to be more intentionality to teach and train women in ministry.

But I think it also starts with like, does that church support it? Because I think we all know,

like, there are just a lot of people, a lot of churches out there that just genuinely don't believe

that it's right. So I think that that is of course the first hurdle. Um, but then when you do find a

church that does support it, how intentional are they to empower, encourage, teach, train those

women, you know, not just to lead the children's ministry, you know, but like, or a woman's ministry,

which of course, all of that is so good. And like, I mean, I, I lead our women's ministry in our church.

Um, but you know, taking that step further, you know, of, you know, yes, you can be a pastor,

not just to children and other women, like you can lead, you can be a spiritual figure in the church

and in your ministry in more ways that, you know, you may think or, or believe or have been told.

And yeah, I would definitely agree that there hasn't been enough of that available to women in churches.

Um, and just in general, I know we did, I did a Bible study cause I was like, you know what,

I, I want to take women along in this journey. And so we actually did a Bible study on the topic,

um, in our church, you know, we do small groups in our church and we did one semester was on,

um, a book that, you know, is on the topic and we just, we just dove deep into the topic together

and we talked about it. And I think it really helped and encouraged a lot of women in the church

going through that, that book in that, that Bible study in that way. And I think, yeah,

we just need more of that. And what I heard often was, wow, like I've been so confused on this topic.

I felt led to ministry and led to leadership, but I was just always so confused. I always just never

understood, could I actually do it? And, you know, it really helped and encouraged them. And,

you know, even some of them after that are now in like, you know, leading small groups and beginning

to step into leadership positions. And so it just doesn't even have to be big, like, you know,

start at least with something small, like a place for them to learn and to grow and to feel empowered.

And it can grow from there and multiply from there. But yeah, I would, I would definitely agree that

there needs to be more of that. Does that resonate, Anne?

Absolutely. And I also think that, you know, it's important, like I was sharing with my own story,

that you have some men that are willing to lift you up, that are willing to let you go. But then as a

woman who is moving in those spaces, I need to be bringing other women along with me as well,

and helping to draw that those gifts out of them and give them a place where they can discover their

calling as well. And sometimes I think that as women, we can get very insecure about the places

that we hold and the positions that we hold. And we think I've got to hold on to it. Because if I do

anything, it may be taken from me. And instead, I think we need to have more of a posture of open

hands and really trust that God is inviting us to bring other people along on the journey. That is

that process of discipleship. And so as women, we need to be intentionally sewing into other women

and bringing them along as well, when we do enter those spaces.

Yeah. Nicole, I've heard you talk about some of that before.

Yes, I got the rock on. I'm like, yes, yes.

Go ahead. Share with me.

Even, you know, at this stage of maturation, yes. You know, I have a woman in front of me

who I'm helping push forward. I have one behind me that I'm paving the way and two to walk alongside

me, my Aaron and my her. And I teach that to kids too, because that's important. Like there is something

to be said about how all the apostles had this impartation moment. And if we're not doing that,

then we know it doesn't die. But there's a reason why you're accumulating this wisdom and this

understanding. This is a reason why you have this mantle and it is built for relationship.

You know, like it is God's gift to us that we would give it. The overflow is meant to be given.

You can't give if you're empty. So definitely be full, but you should be doing that. Like that,

that never stops. And I challenge them to do it at all ages and all stages of maturation. Like you

should have that, you know, because that's how you achieve spiritual growth. That's how we have

these people. We can say, was that just me or did I, I missed that? You know, was there a different

revelation that time when I said that than before, you know, there's people that can say that and check

that. And then there's that, that growth that happens for them. And then you get that exponential

growth, you know, in discipleship, which I love like what Ann was talking about, because you

were never meant to do this alone. It may have been a conversation between you and God,

but once it's downloaded, it becomes a conference.

Interesting. I'm going, I'm going to do something. And, and to be honest, I didn't,

when thinking through this interview, this thought didn't really even occur to me until literally in

this conversation. And so this may be perceived as, as rude. This may be perceived as, that's not a good

thing. Don't you love when people like precede the comments, um, by, by saying stuff like this,

like here with the stream, especially with the live, because if this tanks, we will totally edit

this out and this will not make on demand. And so if you're watching this live, you get the unfiltered

version, know that in advance, but through the church digital and, and I'm, I'm, I'm very vocal

on my own story. And this is where it's danger because I'm paralleling my story to you all. And

I don't mean that in any way, that is not what I'm trying to do for 25 years. I banged my head against

the wall because, um, I was trying to help physical churches understand the power of digital and, and

like even freaking through COVID they couldn't figure it out. And, and, and so we pivoted,

we walked away from the church mindset and instead started adopting this idea of the digital missionary,

which is now the digital missionary conference and everything else. And, and, and moving away from

the church and, you know, moving from, uh, it's interesting. I told a donor last night, I was like,

yeah, we, it was like, we were doing B2B business to business, working straight with churches.

But by going to digital missionary, we pivoted and we went to a B2C, a business to consumer

model where now we're working straight with individuals instead of trying to go through

churches. And it's been, it's been like a clean, clear sailing, I, blue skies, you know, blue ocean,

whatever the analogy is that says it's been a sprint and it's been a joy. Like it's been that way.

And so I'm thinking about this, bear with me. And, and I started thinking back of historically,

actually, you know, my mother was very active growing up in, uh, uh, uh, WMU women's missionary,

something, whatever, I don't know, but like for her, she spent a lot of time talking about missionaries.

Uh, and so I went on Google and I Googled Christian women missionaries to pull up some of these names.

Um, you know, Elizabeth Elliot, of course, in the 1900s, and she died in the 2000s, uh, books about

her. Lottie Moon as a Southern Baptist. Like, I mean, this woman in the 1800s and early 1900s was

defining missionary work. Is there opportunities missionally with more towards this? Is that moving

away from a male dominated, um, church environment? Is, is it a good thing to, to lean away and work

straight with the individuals? Is that a, is that a bad thing? I'm, I'm just looking at maybe missional

is, is easier, but that may not make it better. And so what's your take on that? I'm open to whoever

would go first on this, but would being more of a, of a missionary instead of a church.

Is that, is that the right play for, for women in 2025?

I think that it is traditionally more accepted because women are helpers. They're servers,

they're servants. They are coming alongside and helping. Um, and, and really we often fail to see

the intersection between a missionary and a pastor. Um, I don't see that those two things are that

different. Um, because a pastor should also be someone that serves, that loves, that shows

compassion, that works with groups of people, like all of that. But for some reason, there is a stigma

where the word pastor is used in conjunction with women. So yes, I think that there are not very

many people that would say women should not be missionaries. Absolutely. They should be missionaries,

but they can't be a pastor. And so I think that, um, if we, if we stop getting hung up on terminology

and become more concerned with where God is moving women individually in their lives,

I think it's important for us to follow the calling wherever it leads. You could call me a missionary.

You could call me a pastor. You could call me a nonprofit leader. I don't care what you call me.

I just know that I am called to take the gospel to people and to reignite a passion for discipleship.

And I think we so, we get so interested in labeling people and categorizing people

to appease the different boxes that we put people in, um, that we end up limiting. Like in my case,

we end up limiting what people, what we say people can do. I was raised in a missionary household. So we

lived in Nigeria when I was young, I knew that I could become a missionary. If I wanted to become a

missionary, I couldn't be a pastor, but I could be a missionary. And those two things are very much in

my mind, very similar. Um, pastors should be missionaries. Missionaries should be pastoral.

Um, but, but we just put those specific labels and then categorize people where it makes us comfortable.

Yeah. Um, Amanda, as you're, as you're hearing that, what are you thinking on maybe some of these labels?

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think labels, I think Anne really just nailed it, honestly. I think labels

really are the issue, you know, it's, it's so strange. Like women can be called directors,

but not pastors, but they're doing the same exact thing. What changes is the title. Um, and so,

yeah, I, I resonate with all of what Anne said and I, and I just want to echo that. I, I,

I really think the, the title is really the issue. I don't think it should be one or the other. Um,

you know, at the end of the day, I think people are going to have an issue with titles, just period,

whether it would, no matter what they believe, what the, what their thoughts are, whatever. Um,

I think you just have to stay true to what God is calling you to do and be confident in that and

just move forward with whatever that is, whether it is a pastor or a missionary, you know? Um, and so,

yeah. You know, I could see where the U S um, the U S church, the North American church, um,

may have, uh, you know, has pivoted more towards a male dominated version of leadership as with the,

the title of pastor. And, um, um, I'm, I'm, I'm loosely saying the word corrupted. I don't mean,

but I think the, I don't mean that graphically, but, but I think the, the, the idea shifted away

from more of the pastor being more of a, of a high capacity leader, as opposed to a shepherd. Um,

even, even, even a teacher, like they actually, I remember, um, you know, I tell this story

occasionally I was on, I was on a church staff, uh, and we were like, you know, maybe 30 pastors.

And, um, it was a large church in every pastor that was on staff with this church. If they had

taken the a pest, uh, they would have been like an 80 to 90% apostolic. And so it was like a very

driven, very type a, uh, very extreme staff environment. And, and it was funny. Like I was

actually probably the most shepherd teacher, uh, on staff among everybody else, because it was,

it was all strong apostolics, which was almost a joke. Cause if you know me, like there ain't no

shepherd in, in, in me and that. And so, um, I, and working in that strong environment, you really,

it's, you, you're starting to miss like the other, other parts of a pest and, and working in that,

in that male dominated, you're really missing some of, some of the complimentary parts of how a women

can, can, can help to, to complete the process. So ukulele says here, let me draw attention to this.

Um, we have, uh, we have to be going and doing what God's calls us to do. We can adjust the label,

but be careful not to adjust the mission, uh, to be more palatable, uh, to humans, you know? And so

it's not, I think that's a good call. You're not, we don't want to lose sight of the mission of what

we're called to. Um, and let me ask you as, as we're as, cause you're, you're reaching globally,

you know, I'm, I'm guessing Amanda's reaching globally as well, but oftentimes people

hide behind the usernames and it's, it's harder to really figure out who's who,

but, and like, you know, who you're reaching, you, you're building relationships with predominantly

a lot of people in Africa and other nations. Do other nations globally, do they struggle with

women pastor, with women leader as strongly as you see in North America? Is it, is it globally

as much of an issue as maybe you're, you're feeling here, uh, domestically?

The answer is no, they do not. And that is one of the things that brings me great joy and satisfaction

with the ministry, um, with which I get to work. I, I hardly hear any of those comments. I hardly get

any of those comments from people that are engaging globally. Um, many of my people are from Africa,

from Pakistan, um, different places, and they just, it's not an issue. Um, it's, you are, you are called

and you are equipped and you are prepared and gifted to teach the word of God. And I am going to learn.

And there's an attitude that I think is often missing here in the US, um, that they realize that they can

learn anytime, anywhere from anyone. And there is a, there's a humility there. And one of the things that

I have loved is to be able to see, remember I said that some of them will comment in the comments before I

even get there. Um, and, and it's usually my international people that are commenting and that

are, that are correcting the mistruth and the, and just the hurtful statements that are made, um, on my

behalf. And so I would say definitely in my experience, um, it is a United States Western centered, um, uh,

mindset that, that I do not see in much of the global parts that I engage with.

Amanda, have you had an experience globally, uh, that, that would, would you just, would you agree

with what Ann said there? Like, what is your experience been globally on Twitch and Discord?

Yeah. Majority of the people we do reach are in the United States, but we do reach people

all over the world, Australia, uh, United Kingdom, you know, Europe and whatnot. Um, and to my knowledge,

you know, all the people who are outside of the U S they don't seem to mind. If anything, actually,

I know one of the Australian, uh, women that I know in our church, you know, she's always

like hungry for more women representation in, in ministry leadership. And, you know,

she always tells me you should preach more, you know, cause she's just, she's hungry to see more

women in that kind of role and position leading in such a way spiritually. Um, so yeah, I would have to

agree, um, with that for sure. No, I love that. That was, I didn't know that for a fact, but that,

that doesn't surprise me that that global is, is, is more supportive of that. Um, and it's, I forget,

um, and I, I, I remember sending this to you. I, I think, I think it was, um, Rick Warren,

Rick Warren was doing some research, uh, and he did a YouTube video on Lazan. Um, and he was talking

about, um, global movements and he'd done research or his research team did research on, um, why

global movements fail. And what he had found is that the majority of global movements that had failed

over the past X number of years, a couple centuries, uh, were dominated by male centric,

white male centric leadership was, I think the stat that he came up with and that it was, was working in

international, uh, contextualization and working in women into leadership. Uh, both of those things

contributed to, uh, a more of a, a global impact or, or extending impact beyond, um, to create, get to

a movement level. And, and so like, I was funny, I remember forwarding that actually it was, I forwarded

that, uh, uh, uh, Angela Craig first and then sent it, uh, uh, and Angela was, was, uh, one of the pioneers

in the space to doing digital church for a decade or so before she shifted over to education. Uh,

what was her church? Her church was, um, oh man, shoot. Uh, I am pursue church life. That was,

it was her church on Facebook for years. Um, so, I mean, let me ask, uh, well, and that's why the reason I

said, oh, that's one of the reasons why I'm not patting myself on the back, but the church digital,

uh, Barbara Carnero, to be honest, Barbara Carnero tells me I'm wrong on a regular basis and she's

never wrong when she corrects me. And so like, I do not mind that. And, uh, Stacy's on, on our senior

leadership as well with, um, uh, uh, as our, as our chaplain and we are, uh, I am always looking for

people who don't look like me and think like me on leadership. Well, let me ask this question. How,

I mean, I, I'm going to ask two questions back to back first. How do we solve this at the big level?

Do we solve this at the big level? And then maybe a follow-up question would be,

how do we solve this? Like individual, what's, what's one or two steps we can do today

to start to move in that direction. And so, um, and you want to kick us off?

Yeah, I would just say individually, I think all of us need to develop a sense of humility and curiosity,

that those are two things that I find often, unfortunately are lacking within the church

structure. Um, and especially, you know, when you get onto a digital space, um, people feel very

empowered, um, to just say what they know and to be very certain about it and put their, put their

comment on there and then leave or whatever. Um, and what I would encourage people to do

is to develop a sense of humility to say, I can learn something from anybody.

So let me hear what this person has to say. Um, even if it makes me uncomfortable,

even if it's from a different perspective, you know, so many times we want to get in an echo chamber

with people that think the same way that we think and approach life the same way that we approach it

so that we can hear things that confirm our own biases and our own thoughts. Um, but when you hear

a woman speaking, when you hear somebody of color speaking, when you hear somebody that's in a

different station of life with different experiences speaking, you're going to be able to hear things

that may make you uncomfortable for a while and challenge your thinking, but with some humility

and with some curiosity, um, I think that we are going to allow more and different voices to speak

to us in a way that we will really receive it. So I think that that is, you know, humility and curiosity

on an individual level. Um, but I also think that what would that look like on a systems level with an

on an organizational level, that those are things that we prioritize within our churches, within our

ministries, within our constructs, within our algorithms, um, even that we would hear things

that we don't always agree with. Um, but we have this sense of curiosity to say, God, what might you be

teaching me through these people that may not be exactly like me? Yeah, it takes humility to, to

not know the answer. It takes humility to be open-handed like that. Um, and so I, I can see where a lot of

pastors, uh, a lot of men might have problems with that. I mean, that, that's been something,

to be honest, that's been, I've learned that the hard way. Let's just say it that way. That would be my

story. So I, I agree with you there on that. And, um, uh, Amanda, as, as we're hearing this, like,

what's, um, uh, the big picture long-term, how, how do we, how do we put a dent in this?

Yeah, definitely echo the humility. I think that's like the number one reason, you know,

that people who are, you know, just against women, you know, they, they lack the ability to have a

conversation to hear the other side. Um, and so I think it starts with humility, but then I think

like being intentional to create opportunities for women, um, to be celebrated, empowered, um,

encouraged, uh, trained up, um, you know, not just like, you know, adding on a woman to like, you know,

uh, uh, a list of conference speakers just to have like your, your woman, you know, resented, like,

you know, like the token female. Yes. Yes. The token female, you know, don't do that. Um,

because while, you know, sure to a degree, we appreciate the thought, um, it's not necessarily

helpful when you do that. Um, you know, but like, you know, seek out women who are truly doing an

incredible job in these spaces, celebrate them, invite them to more opportunities so that they can

be seen by other people, men and women included. And I think by, by inviting more women into the space,

you know, um, like these, these, um, podcasts are great, you know, but what I would love to see is

women on pad podcasts that aren't about women in ministry, you know, like what, what are you doing

as a woman in this space? Like, why, like, why, like, like, what do you like, what are you up to?

Like, you know, what is God doing in and through your ministry, you know, um, to see more of that

so that it's not just like, yes, woman can do it, but like, what actually are you doing?

You know, why can women do it? Let's see, let's see the proof in the pudding. Like, let's see

what God is doing in and through what he has called you to. Um, and so I would love to see that,

you know, of course, women supporting women, but I also think it is so incredibly important for men

to be supporting women in these roles as well, because we can, women have each other's backs,

you know, but I feel like we'll constantly be fighting against the grain. If men are also being

intentional to invite us into those same leadership spaces, especially if it's so male dominated,

um, they have to make room for us because I don't know about you, like, I'm not interested in finding

my way in. Um, I'm not that type of person. I'm not trying to like insert myself, um, when I'm not

wanted. Um, you know, so I think men creating that space for women to, you know, be celebrated,

encouraged, trained up, you know, to have that opportunity is, is so important. So.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll give testimony to this. Um, you know, the church digital,

some of the shorts that we produce, uh, the, the short, and Stacy's one of our regular producers,

the shorts that she produces, uh, typically rank in our top. Uh, like when, when she does it,

that they, they perform, uh, very well, which is interesting because, you know, my subscribers are

97% male. Uh, but they're, they're resonating with, with, uh, some of the ideologies of what

she's talking about. I'd say the same thing. And we've done some, some clips, uh, with you historically,

uh, through podcasts and other things that we've done. And, and, and, and does that does well with

that. Um, I would, you know, I've, I've often said, you know, um, I, I don't know that I'm the,

the future of the church digital, a white bald man with a beard. I don't think is really going to be,

uh, the leader of an organization, a global movement organization. I, I just, I think it's somebody

else is going to, going to pick the reins up and run with this. Uh, but as, as much as we can,

can empower, uh, as, as much as we can enable women, as much as we can enable different cultures,

um, and, and empower them to do ministry, encourage them to like, that's, I, I, I, I try at a personal

level. I try to get my platform up on a regular basis. And, and, uh, you know, Nicole has, has

benefited from that and historically, I hope would say she's benefited from that. Actually, that was,

it was interesting. I was talking about Angela Craig earlier. Um, you know, Angela, I hope it's okay

that I tell the story, but, um, I, I sent her, I sent her that, that story I was talking about Rick

Warren. And, um, I, I said to her, you know, thank you for, for pioneering in this space and doing this

work to help create a movement. And, um, and she replied, and she replied back, uh, and I apologize,

or, um, Angela, I apologize if I shouldn't have said this, but she said something to the extent

of thank you for giving me the year platform and the opportunity to be heard by, um, an audience that,

that doesn't listen. Um, and that's, that's been a sad reality for me is like, there are,

there are pastor friends in, in my ecosystem that are like, why, why are you highlighting women

pastors? That's not biblical. Like I've gotten, I've gotten hate email off, off some of this stuff.

It's interesting. This I've had a lot of engagement in this conversation and Chad actually has been

really positive, but I was half expecting some negative to come around because that does happen

on occasion, you know, even, even in our ecosystems. And so, um, you know, I want to thank you all

for, for being, being the pioneers for leading into this space. Um, you know, we, we say here at the

church digital pioneers, get shot settlers, get rich. And so you guys are, are, are paving the way for some

other missionaries and some other planters and other women to benefit from this, uh, in the future.

But, but let me ask this question today in 2025, it's March, right? It is March, right? March 15th,

17th, somewhere around there. Okay. We're good. Uh, I know what month we're in. It's, it's a step in

the right direction by 2026 in the next nine months, eight months. Um, we want to move the bucket

forward. We want to take a step in the right direction. What, what, what do, what do we need to

do? How, how do we, um, elevate this? So it's not a problem. What can we do in the next year, uh, to,

to help bring about a solution or a step in the solution in the right space? What do y'all think?

I would love to see each ministry leader, male or female, um, find someone and appreciate

the greatness and the God-given talent within them and then replace themselves. You know, I hope that

I will in the next year and a half, um, continue finding other women, um, continue finding people

who are called into different areas of ministry. And Jeff, just like you were saying, um, giving up

the platform and allowing them to be able to use their gifts and talents, um, in a way that they may

not have even thought possible or nobody ever gave them that opportunity. And so whether it's,

um, whether it's a digital platform, whether it's a pulpit, whether it's a Sunday school class,

whether it's a, you know, a small group, whatever that is, um, find a woman, uh, appreciate the

greatness and the gifts within her, and then give up a little bit of your power so that she can step

into the greatness that God created her for. Wow. Well said. Apprenticing, you know,

multiplying yourselves into others, men and women. Um, beautiful. Uh, Amanda, you wanna go next?

Simple steps. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I mean, echo, echo that. Um, you know, I think I should never let

Ann go first because like, she's so eloquent. It's like, okay, what she said. Yeah. But for real,

what she said. Um, but yeah, just to back that up, like even just in, in the circles that I'm in,

you know, um, I see people coming together and, you know, they're creating like leadership teams and,

you know, there's conferences and there's podcasts and, you know, um, all I keep thinking is there's

so many capable women that I just don't see being invited or even considered for any of this, you know,

um, and that just, uh, it just makes me sad, um, you know, to see that. And I don't think it's

necessarily intentional. I just think that, you know, it's just, it's just become so natural. Um,

and just, uh, what happens? I don't even, it's, it's just so, yeah. Like, I don't even know how to

explain why, you know, but yeah, just seeing that makes me really sad. And just, I, I would love to

see more women being invited into these teams, into these roles, like into these spaces again, like,

you know, echoing what Ann said, you know, just like celebrating them in the God's gifts that,

you know, he has given them and their greatness and sharing some of that power, that, you know,

ability, that leadership, that opportunity with just, you know, men and women, I think is just important.

Um, if we want to see any of this change. Yeah. That's good. Uh, Nicole.

I, you know, I was listening and I was like, okay, what do you say? Cause yeah, I feel like echo,

echo definitely. And like, that was every item I had rolled in my head for this moment. Um,

but what I would like to see is I've often been told that I had to become the mentor that I was seeking,

because there wasn't one available. Um, so what I would like to see is more opportunities for

ministers in general. Uh, I can have a him and a her, her, her, her, her, her, him, him. It, to me,

it's, it's, it's who God sends to me and I can't control that. And if I'm trying to control that,

then it's not who God is sending because I'm never in control. And so to, to have the ability

to feed into a pool of people, whether it's like she said, apprenticeships, internships,

come alongside ministry, just spotlighting you in my ministry. Not that you have to be doing what

I'm doing, but the fact that you're doing it to highlight that in my ministry,

it's going to take many parts. And we know that because the body is made up of many members

and we were to come together. So that meant that at some point I'm going to be with somebody who may

be IRL, who may be fidgetal, and there's something that they're doing. That's going to help me propel

them and me. And that's why we're supposed to connect. There's a click that happens.

So I would love to see opportunities to create a global knowledge bank of people that we could say,

Hey, we're getting ready to do this. Put your applications in for digital, just like they do

for in-person, you know, here's everything that we can teach on. What do you want to teach?

Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I'd love to say if you're a woman, if you're in this digital

ministry space, and you're looking for that ecosystem, you're looking for that friendly

environment, you got it here. Come hang out with us over at the Church Digital and, you know,

let's get something going. I'm half tempted to tell Nicole to abandon Gen A and Gen Z and help me start

the Church Digital Women's Ministry. I have no idea what I'm talking about. But, you know, I mean,

there's two sides of the coin where, yeah, Gen A, Gen Z needs to figure this out. But the Church Digital,

you know, and I wasn't planning to call. I wasn't planning on saying that. That's

literally in this moment is there needs to be a stronger voice. And listen, it doesn't need to be me.

I mean, this is truly a space where we need to start to platform others in the space to represent

well. And, you know, it needs to be a woman to encourage and to empower women in this space.

And so if you're looking for that encouragement, come hang out with us. Nicole, we're going to have

to offline this conversation. Absolutely.

It's usually our conversations are fun. We'll have to see what comes along the way.

Our conversations are always great. And let me just add that my number one thing, my life verse,

and it has never changed. The Lord has not given me another verse since he gave me this one,

is for such a time as this. My person in the Bible is Esther. I believe that we're all created for

something and there's a specific time that that's supposed to be accessed. So if this is that time

and you feel like God is nudging you that you're, you know, like he's clearing the buffet table so that

you can come with your dessert to the table, then this is what you need to do. Like, find your people

or find people and just get in because they'll help you find your people. You know, the church.

Find your people, find your family. I love that. I love that. Very, very good. Hey, as we're wrapping

up here, uh, went a little long, but I thank you. Thank you, uh, for the extra time. Uh, but just

any, any closing thoughts, uh, Amanda, you want to go first? Oh gosh. Um, I'm not prepared.

Um, no, I, you know, just wanted any, any women listening. Um, God has, uh, created you with

purpose. Um, he has a plan for your life. You have gifts and whatever those gifts are, he has,

you know, already prepared, you know, my, one of my favorite verses is Ephesians 2 10, you know,

for we are Christ, you know, for we are God's masterpiece created in him to do good works,

which he prepared in advance for us to do. Like you, God has prepared you to do great, incredible

works. Um, and whatever that may be, figure it out if you haven't already and, you know, find a way

to step into that. You know, if you need to seek out, you know, mentors and other women to come

alongside you, well, at just a period, you should have that in, in general, but you know, however you

need to, to step into that, step into that, be confident that, you know, women can be in ministry.

Women can be in leadership positions. Um, you know, I know there are a lot of voices out there,

but the biggest voice that you need to listen to is God's and what he is calling you to do.

That is what you need to listen to, um, and be obedient to not what other voices will try and

tell you. So be encouraged with that. Well, I tell you what, if that's you talking unprepared,

I'd hate to see your sermons when you actually have some time to prep. Uh, that, that was pretty

good right there. Uh, Amanda, thank you for that. Um, yeah, Nicole, you want to go next?

Yes. Yes. So I feel like Amanda spoke to your future. So I'm gonna speak to your present.

If you're feeling the press, if you know that this calling is everywhere you go, you get on

platforms and people are like, Hey, can you help me understand? I have questions about faith. I need to

talk to you about this. God is calling me to do this. Then that is where you operate. We are all

given a mission field and we're all given a person, a person of peace that we're to interact with.

Step out on faith and start interacting because God says, all we have to do is open our mouth and he

will speak. All you have to do is obey. And he will command you make a plan. He'll order the steps.

Just take the first step. And I know that God is there with you. And we're all here. This video will be

accessible and you can come back and get this knowledge. So just do it. Just do it. Like,

hope Nike doesn't come from me, but just do it.

Awesome.

Awesome. And Nike, if you are interested, her email address is Nicole NIC. No, I'm kidding.

Yeah. The church digital is not responsible for any of the opinions shared. No, I'm kidding.

All right. And as we're wrapping up here, closing thoughts.

So Amanda spoke to the future and Nicole spoke to the present. I'll speak to the past.

Women, I want you to know that you are enough, that the voices that told you in your past that you are

not enough. They didn't see who you are and you are enough. You are enough to do this work that God

has called you to. You have enough to do everything that he is calling you toward. And, and you know,

enough you, it's not that you missed out on an opportunity to learn and now you don't have an

opportunity. Women, you are enough and you have enough and you know enough. And I just pray that

you will rediscover the potential that is within you and, and you walk in that fully.

Yes. Awesome. Wow. That was, that was powerful right there. Uh, you know, normally when I ask that

question, people are like, no, I'm good, but y'all, y'all, y'all brought the hammer right, right there

at the end. Um, and so I, I want you to know, uh, you know, ladies, I, I know your, your ministry well,

uh, and, and I have the utmost respect for each of you and, and, and what you're doing. Uh, we've

had pastor G and, uh, ukulele hanging out, excuse me, pastor D and ukulele hanging out with us in

chat as well. And, uh, and, and you, you both as well. I know the ministry, I see the fruit of who

you are digitally. And, uh, I want to thank all of you, uh, for the work that, that you are doing in,

in, in your respective ministries. And so, um, as we're moving forward to church digital,

I am, uh, I'm excited, uh, to, uh, to do more and to platform more ladies and to be able to,

to allow, um, more of them to share. I would say, uh, that with us, you always have a place to be seen,

uh, and, and to be recognized for that. And so if you're struggling, connect with us and let you get

connected to, to some, some people that can help you, um, work through that, come alongside you. I'm

told that's the right thing to say now, come alongside you and to work through that. I'm,

I'm trying to work on my language a little bit, uh, on that. So I appreciate that. It's a kinder,

gentler Jeff, uh, these days in 25. So, Hey, but we're, we're going to land the plane, uh, for,

for, for Amanda, for, for Nicole. Um, this is, uh, this is Jeff. Oh, Anna forgot. Anna forgot all

about Anna for Anna. This is Jeff, uh, with the church digital. Thanks for jumping on this podcast,

uh, sign up for the conference and, uh, we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good one.