EP 332 - Questions - Is the Metaverse Dead?

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally?

How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church,

the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

digitally and physically.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

We're doing a live stream recording here.

This is episode 332.

We've got Pastor Alina and Pastor Coco from VRMMO Church off screen here for just a minute.

They're anxious to go.

They're excited about the conversation.

They're a little nervous, maybe feeling a little bit towards this.

And so now they're embarrassed that I said that they were feeling a little nervous.

But it's going to be a really good conversation digging into, is the metaverse dead?

You know, I keep hearing rumors of its demise, yet I still see it thriving and growing.

So a good conversation from really one of the premier churches operating right now in virtual reality, VRMMO Church.

So looking forward to getting that conversation here in a little bit.

Heading into it, though, hey, we've got a conference coming up right around the corner.

Digital Missionary Conference.

And super, super excited about it.

I literally, it's been last minute details.

We are seven days and like eight hours or something away from this thing being a reality.

It's kicking off Wednesday, April 2nd, 11 a.m. Eastern.

And so 11 keynotes, 30-some breakouts.

You know, and the breakouts keep coming in.

Like, seriously, still getting signups and people that want to be part of this thing.

I just checked registration.

We are close to 700 registered.

Get this, from 73 countries.

There are 73 countries represented in the breakouts.

Or excuse me, in the registered people so far.

The 700 people registered.

And so super excited about this.

More information.

You can see it there on the screen.

Does anybody else have that problem?

It's always wrong hand backwards.

Missionary.digital, www.missionary.digital to register for that.

We've got a lot of people hanging out in chat with us.

Flatcap, let's go.

Steve Reed, brother from another mother, beats me, blessed, beat me.

You know, Flatcap got first.

Blessed day to everybody.

Troy Jones, who just got a new job.

Excited about that.

But it's also supposed to be in school right now.

So should not be on this stream.

Because dude, go to class, is saying hi.

We've got Pastor D, who is always curious.

And I'm curious.

She's probably wanting to check out the metaverse.

Because she is very excited about the metaverse and virtual, historically.

And we've got Flatcap busting my man Troy right now.

Yes, Troy, you are supposed to be in class.

Get off the stream, bro.

I do not want to get in trouble.

Because you are ditching guitar Ian on the other coast and saying good morning.

And probably some others coming on.

So as you guys are watching this, interactive, of course, in the show.

Okay, Troy.

So Troy Copocalypse.

Troy's at lunch.

And so it's okay for Troy to be involved because it's at lunch.

Now, Troy, when lunch is over and you go to guitar class, stop.

Okay?

Don't be that guy.

I don't want to get, like, some associate principal yelling at me because you'd be skipping class and being a distraction because you're watching the stream.

Now, once you graduate in a couple weeks, you can do whatever the crap you want.

I don't care.

But until you graduate, until you get that diploma, do go to school.

All right.

All right.

Hey, disclaimer.

Yes.

Okay.

Troy is, in fact, going back to class.

I know the rest of us were very relieved at this and excited that dude's going to finish strong up in Pennsylvania.

And so, Troy, update over for this one.

Hey, I'm excited about this conversation.

And so let me go ahead and bring into the show, I'm going to press my magic button, hope this works, Pastor Alina and Pastor Coco.

How are you doing, ladies?

I'm going okay.

Awesome.

And so it's very, very good.

Well, Pastor Coco and Pastor Alina, you're all quiet, like a little reserved.

Is this the normal, like, metaverse, virtual reality, MMO energy level?

Is it more, like, what does energy look like for you when you're wearing the headset, Pastor Alina?

Oh, it's quite the opposite of this quiet, reserved self you see here.

You're just, like, you step into the space and immediately there are, you're just, like, surrounded by so many people.

Just the energy is insane.

Sometimes, because I'm a little older, it can be a bit much, even.

It's just a lot of excitement.

Everybody's always really just excited to gather and they catch up.

Even though most of us will see each other a few times a week, that excitement to get together is always vibrant.

Beautiful.

And so VR, MMO Church, Virtual Reality, MMO, Massive Multiplayer Online Church.

This was founded by and is still run by DJ Soto, who's well-known.

Wired Magazine talked about him being the virtual reality pastor.

And BBC has done stories on him.

The Daily Show did a shtick on him for baptizing somebody in virtual reality.

And so, you know, VR, MMO has really been the metaverse church kind of that has been known over the past decade or so.

And recently, and Pastor Alina heads up the virtual reality campus.

And then Pastor Coco, in the middle, has pivoted and really launched an MMO church in Final Fantasy, which is different, I'm assuming, than the virtual reality church.

And so I'd love to get into that a little bit.

But, hey, let's meet these two kind of heading into the conversation.

Pastor Alina, maybe set us up a little bit here.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got connected to VR MMO.

Oh, oh, wow.

I could take up the entire time, but I will try my best not to here.

I discovered VR MMO Church six years ago-ish.

I was a flight attendant for most of my life.

I became disabled about 12 or 15 years ago.

And my illness, my body doesn't regulate temperature.

And so it's kept me confined in my home.

And so I first got into VR because I've always been a gamer.

And VR was this escape for me.

It let me feel like I was no longer in the same for this little box that I lived in forever.

And one of the first things I downloaded was alt space.

Couldn't believe there was a church in there.

Didn't think even that it was real.

Like, we get that a lot where people don't think it's a real church.

People are playing in some way.

But as soon as I stepped in, Bishop Soto was teaching.

All of the people were so welcoming, made me feel comfortable immediately.

And then after hearing his teaching and just the full experience, I knew then and there, this is my forever home.

Like, I just knew it.

And I knew I had to do whatever I could to make sure it not only, like, it stays existing but flourishes.

It was an immediate passion.

And then I just started serving every which way I could.

And then over the years, I started taking seminary classes and ultimately becoming a pastor here at VR Church.

Awesome.

And so excited.

We're going to get more into the VR aspects and pastoring and virtual reality and all that.

But what's come out in the past, Pastor Coco, two years, three years, a pivot towards not just virtual reality but into these MMO video games like Final Fantasy and Rust and Black Desert.

But specifically, Pastor Coco heads up the Final Fantasy campus.

And so, Pastor Coco, maybe tell a bit about your story and how you got connected into the church.

Well, I got connected in 2020 and I had joined to help with the MMO aspect of it in 2020 because it was still in the experimental discovery phases.

And I have a long background in emerging tech design and that's actually what I do for a living.

And so, when the COVID layoffs happened and I was re-examining my existence, I'm like, I wonder if there's a church in VR.

And so, I googled VR church and there was a VR church and I connected with DJ and wanted to volunteer for VR and then I found out about this MMO side.

And I'm like, well, my friends have been trying to convince me to play Final Fantasy, so why not?

I'll volunteer for that.

And yeah, and never planned on becoming a pastor and DJ tapped me on the shoulder and Alina can say the same thing.

I was just here to help.

And then DJ said, you lead.

So, here I am.

That's awesome.

Delegation is so cool, right?

It's like, hey, glad you're here.

Take over.

That's beautiful.

Hey, so let's dig in.

You know, it's kind of tongue-in-cheek.

Is the metaverse dead?

It feels like in some circles there's not as much attention into virtual reality as there was during the kind of the initial push.

COVID brought a lot of attention to it.

That being said, Altspace was really a strong push for a while.

Microsoft shut that down and poured some of their energy into what is now, you know, chat GPT and AI is kind of the tech push it feels like for a while.

But the time that I'm spending in virtual reality, there's still tons of people involved.

I'm still seeing technology being worked on and software being developed.

And I'm seeing churches grow and expand in this space.

So, it doesn't actually feel like anything is dead or changed.

Pastor Alina, what's your experience?

What are you guys feeling over out of VRMMO?

Is this thing really dead?

Oh, gosh, no.

No, no, no.

Definitely not dead.

Yes, there was this, like, spike during COVID where just there was immense growth.

And, of course, as society opened back up and people could go out on their own, some of those people, sure, don't come always or as often.

But we continue to grow.

We continue to get new people all of the time.

And it's, we're just at the beginning.

Like, this idea of we've already hit our peak and now it's dead or going away, is, we haven't really even begun, in all honesty.

This is, without a doubt, an emerging and growing platform.

And, yeah, still a lot of exciting things to come.

So many exciting things to come.

Yeah.

Let's talk a little here about it because, you know, the idea of Flatcap is saying there, Flatcap Dapper, where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus.

It is a church and, you know, I know Flatcap's been working alongside you all and doing some and helping out in the VR side and both sides.

But talk to us a little bit here.

What does church look like in virtual reality?

Like, describe, you know, I wish, put on headsets and get in there.

It doesn't do its service.

But talk to us a little bit here about what the church experience is in VR.

So, first of all, it's impossible to ever explain in a way that someone who hasn't experienced it can't, they just can't wrap their mind around.

Just the VR experience itself, when you put on this little headset, you really do feel as if you are in the presence of others or that you are in that space.

If you're going and doing a VR thing that's not social, that the immersion is like indescribable.

Again, you can't describe it.

When I step into, say, church, there are people all around.

We're very excited to see each other.

We hug one another.

And it feels like you're hugging one another.

Like, whatever endorphins is put out like in a normal hug, it is the same thing.

Your body has the same response as if it were a physical experience.

Church in VR is particularly exciting because you definitely, again, it's not like you're watching a stream, something that's happening like you're an observer.

You are absolutely in it.

And in VR, we're able to build spaces.

And we do, especially in Rec Room, new worlds for every sermon.

We have a team that does that.

So you're not just like listening to a pastor who's just speaking all this time, but you're walking through that environment that is created just for that.

And there's a lot of opportunity because you're not standing like on a podium with everybody out there.

You're walking together.

So there's a lot of opportunity to engage with people in the middle of service.

So it's less, you know, one person doing all of the sharing of God's wisdom and we do it together.

There's very much a together attitude.

There's like this, sometimes the pastor in the congregation, there can be this separation or this wall where in VR, and I'm sure on the MMO side as well,

it's that wall is torn down and we're doing it together.

And to me, that's really exciting.

Yeah.

And so you're, I know you mentioned Rec Room a couple of times.

That's one of the social worlds, one of the virtual reality platforms that exists that people really come together and connect with.

Rec Room is really tied to a lot of the video game systems.

And so it tends to be a little younger audience, a little skewed, a little younger, I think.

And so, but in addition to Rec Room, you're also in VR Chat.

That's the other one, correct?

Correct.

And so, like, in VR Chat, you know, DJ Soto calls it the wild, wild west.

I've heard him talk about that.

You know, for some level I've talked about it being the red light district.

It's kind of no parental controls, and it goes, you know, people are a little more free to express themselves, the good and the bad.

Like, what does ministry look like in both of those spaces?

You're dealing with maybe a more immature kid in one realm, and then you're dealing with unfiltered adults in the other.

And so how do you, do you change things in between the worlds, or what's your approach maybe in both of those spaces?

So that's really interesting, because Rec Room and VR Chat couldn't be more opposite.

And Rec Room definitely has a younger crowd, but there are plenty of adults as well.

It's just, it's a, for those young at heart, I love it.

And I'm only young at heart, not young in, you know, age.

And then VR Chat is, like you said, it's the wild, wild west.

Yeah, and with an older crowd, for the most part.

And we don't really change, I don't change anything between my Rec Room experience and my VR Chat experience,

as in how I engage with people, because that engagement should always, like, be the same.

And in Rec Room, these people are hungry in the same way that VR Chat people are.

Like, they're all coming, even those different locations, they're coming for the same purpose.

Like, often they aren't comfortable or are unwelcome in a physical church.

So, whether they be older or younger, they're often coming from a similar, like, background or perspective.

And in VR Chat, they're older and more comfortable talking, which is really cool.

So, in VR Chat, we have a lot better communication with the community.

We have these community Sundays, which are held in Rec Room and in VR Chat, where instead of the sermon from a pastor or teacher,

we take that hour to focus on building the community, so that the community can care for itself.

So, it's not just a pastor care for all of the people, which is impossible, but getting the community to care for itself.

In VR Chat, they're older, so they're more comfortable opening up, and they often open up about things that no one would dream about bringing up in, say, a physical church.

Yeah.

There's this comfort, and the community is just excited to engage and help people.

We talk about everyday life and the challenges and how we can live for Christ in this complicated world, in this difficult world.

And so, from depression to standing strong in your faith when you're surrounded, say, in VR Chat, by, like, a lot of damaging.

There's, like you said, red light, wild, wild west.

How do you stand in your faith when you're surrounded by all of this that's trying to tug you away?

Yeah.

Pardon me.

I'll have to get rid of that.

And so, we have similar conversations in Rec Room.

It's just usually people are not quite as open, but they do, but not nearly quite as open to talk about things.

And, again, that's one of my favorite things about digital ministry is the engagement that we can have with the community, the not one-sided thing.

So, yeah.

I love that.

And you are, I mean, you're engaging with a different type of person in virtual reality than that who would go to a physical church building.

Like, you know, I kind of have this running joke.

Nobody in the history of time has ever said, I'm going to skip going to church in the building today, and instead, I'm going to go to church in virtual reality.

Like, you know, my experience in these spaces, it's atheist agnostics, it's people that have walked away from the church, no exposure to church or God whatsoever, not even understanding who Jesus is as a person, what the cross symbolizes.

Or like she said, not welcome at the church.

Yeah, and I know, Coco, that's something that you, you know, highlight a lot and protect, you feel like you need to protect within VRMMO.

Do you maybe want to expand a little bit and share a little bit about that?

About the people that aren't welcome in physical church?

Yeah.

Yeah, we get, it's actually where we get the most flack.

And you're always talking about people getting shot.

This is where we get the most flack is because we will let the atheists, the agnostics, the people with really difficult questions that Christians usually get offended by them asking.

And, but they don't feel safe to ask and we'll get Muslims, we'll get Hindu, we'll get all kinds of people, LGBTQ people, and we welcome them and we give them a safe place to get to know Jesus without trying to force them to meet some kind of standard.

We meet them where they are, we meet them where they are, just like Jesus did, and we try to help them grow at their pace.

And that's not something that those people get in real life church, at least from my experience with real life church.

How, so I would love to, I want to come back to that, and it's interesting.

Axel says here, we talk a lot about church hurt, don't we?

You know, I know that that's a dream.

Yeah, he's one of mine.

Yeah, that feels, you know, I feel that in the metaverse space and can recognize that.

But let's, I want to dig in a little bit before we go too far down that trail.

MMO, like you were, so you're doing church and virtual reality.

VR church was a thing for probably a decade before you started to swing over and explore the MMO side.

And I know there were some experiments with some things, and we landed in Final Fantasy that's still operating today.

Pastor Coco, can you maybe explain a little bit about what that experience was, like where you guys tested,

and a little bit about like what church actually looks like in a video game like Final Fantasy?

Yeah, we've tested in a bunch of different games.

We've done GTA.

Alina was a part of that.

I didn't play that one, that DJ and Alina were playing it, so they can tell you more about it.

But did Rust, and that ran for a little while, and Black Desert Online, and Final Fantasy XIV.

And all of them had potential.

Rust had great potential, and it was doing really well.

And the problem is that we can't do it all.

So we have to get other people to run those different platforms.

And the people that were helping with the different platforms, like Black Desert, disappeared.

So it's like they just stopped coming.

And Rust, we didn't have the people to keep it going.

So I'm the last standing, basically.

That's how it's going.

So I'm curious.

Let's dig in.

What does volunteering for Final Fantasy or for Rust, like what type of skill set, what type of personality, what type of person would be volunteering for some of these MMO games, church in these games?

Well, they're all different.

Every single one is different.

You cannot lift and shift from one experience to the next.

So you have to play it and learn it, learn the culture, just like you would if you're going out in a physical location to a different mission field.

Okay.

Same thing in digital.

And so Rust, absolutely, completely different personality than Final Fantasy XIV.

I don't know that there would be many people that like both.

Okay.

So walk me through specifically, because you're in Final Fantasy.

Walk me through that.

What type of person?

By the way, my daughter is obsessed with Final Fantasy.

She is in Tokyo right now.

And she's actually, tomorrow, she's going to the Square Enix headquarters.

That's Final Fantasy, right?

Yeah.

So she loves Final Fantasy.

And so, like, I know my daughter comes to mind when I think about the question.

But, like, what type of personality, what type of person, like, who would you be looking for in the Final Fantasy volunteering?

Well, our group, I don't know if it's just by coincidence or not, but it's over 20.

So we don't have, we have a couple of teens that show up every now and then, but most everyone's like adult.

And we're, come from all different backgrounds.

We've got mothers that, we have stay-at-home moms.

We have people that work all day and just come home to unwind in Final Fantasy.

We've got a whole slew of different backgrounds coming in.

And the personality that I see mostly in Final Fantasy is one that just really values community.

And the MMO sets up, it enables that community in ways that, and I'm not, you can get community in VR and in Rec Room and stuff.

But MMOs are meant for teamwork, meant for community.

Interesting.

So we, yeah.

And so, like, from a gamer perspective, is this like, I'm using words I don't even understand, but is this like a guild where you're creating a group of friends in the community?

Or are you engaging with new people outside of that you're meeting in the community and bringing them in?

Like, I recognize how video games, most people would recognize how video games do allow for a community to exist.

I'm curious, though, because church is a different level of community, or the perception is, and that may not exist in video game space.

How do you capitalize on video game community to be the church for others?

Well, each game's different.

Let's talk Final Fantasy, since that's what you're most comfortable.

They do have guilds, they're called free companies, but we don't focus on those because the way the servers are set up and the way we get people from all over the world.

Our last church service had people from New Zealand, Australia, the Europe, Canada, Mexico, and the United States.

So since we can't all, the servers are set up regionally, so not everyone's going to be able to play together unless we travel.

So we can't do free companies across servers.

So we don't bother with the free company.

We have one for the people that want to come over to that server and join it, but we don't focus on the free company.

We just focus on, we find our people by putting videos on YouTube, and then they come into Discord, and then we connect that way.

And then we just play together.

We do play sessions, and we play together.

We meet together on a server, but we don't meet in-game.

We meet from YouTube and Discord.

Okay, so Discord, a synchronous community, is really the hub.

And so you're connecting with people via YouTube, and Discord's where you're really developing the relationship.

And then you're strengthening the relationship by playing in-game.

So it's really like a shared thing between the video game, YouTube, and Discord.

Those are kind of like the three platforms you're using.

I love that.

And then the virtual reality side, you're utilizing Discord as well to build relationships outside of headset time.

Is that correct?

It is, but I would probably say it's the other way around on the VR side.

Okay.

I see the relationships forming in VR and then continuing in Discord just by nature because you are, it really feels like you're there in person.

So in a small amount of time, you're talking face-to-face, just like we're talking face-to-face.

So we're not messaging and waiting for someone else to reply.

You're just having a conversation.

And so that's when most of our relationships are formed in these conversations that we're having.

And then in Discord, that's how we connect with everyone else because we are one church.

We're doing this together.

Even though we meet on different platforms, we're all in this together.

And so Discord is where we connect with each other.

And yes, there's lots of conversation going on in Discord across the various people from the different platforms.

And so it continues in Discord.

I love the fact that even as a church, you have different strategies really using the same tools.

Like the role of Discord in MMO versus VR, the role of the video game versus virtual reality.

Like you're adjusting, and I kind of unintentionally am pressuring Coco, like what's the MMO answer?

And she's like, well, you know, in Final Fantasy, it's this.

And in Rust, it would be something completely different.

There's no one.

You know, Flatcap just literally put it in chat right now.

It's a multi-campus.

It's a multi-platform, you know, digital church.

And it's not like it's, you know, a multi-site where it's centralized, where, you know, I attended a session once from a U.S.-based organization that was like, literally, it was like, what can a multi-site church learn from Walmart?

Because it was all about franchising and creating that centralized feel across all the campuses.

This is not a multi-site.

This is more of like a multi-church where you're planting something in VR, where you're planting something in Final Fantasy, or you're planting something.

I would love to see a GTA church, Grand Theft Auto, just the kind of the cojones to actually put something together, the gravitas of reaching somebody in that space.

Like, I need to reach out to them, figure that out.

Like, to be able to do unique things, to be stylized, to connect with those specific people, using specific strategies, recognizing different people operate differently.

Like, that's a beautiful thing to explore.

Let me ask this question of both of you, for VR, for MMO, for Final Fantasy, whatever the context.

What is the one thing you can do in your unique church expressions that cannot happen physically?

What can you all do in virtual reality and Final Fantasy that cannot happen in a physical church?

Pastor Lena, you want to go first?

I'll put you on the spot.

Sure.

One of the coolest things is that we can gather from all over the world.

We're not limited to our local space.

So, this helps us, because as a church, we also feel strongly that we want people to come to their own, we want to help people to get to the point where they can come to their own understanding.

We don't want to force anything down anyone's throats and say, you must understand this, this, all the same.

And when you have a global church, you're exposed to a lot of new ideas, because church, one place is very different, and understandings can be very different.

And we provide this space where people are free to discover and talk about these things.

And it's a great place for re-evaluating.

Like, you know, sometimes we grow up with ideas, and that's what we've been told.

And when we're limited to always that same small group of people, we don't get the opportunity to see that maybe we're mistaken in some places.

And so, it creates that, which I absolutely love.

It's the gathering of different minds.

Yeah.

Pastor Coco, does that echo for you?

Yeah.

Just like I was saying, our last service, we had people from Spain, UK, Canada, Europe, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand.

It's like, are you going to get that in a physical language?

Maybe if they travel there, but no.

It's definitely hard to get that feel.

We have conversations around, we learn what a church is like in other countries and their understandings of certain scriptures that are different based on your translations of the Bible, because English is very different than German.

And so, we learn, and like she said, it's like we have a broader understanding of just our stuck, for me, United States evangelical Christian upbringing.

And you don't get that in physical church.

You're stuck with who's there, and you're stuck with the mindsets of that local region, which is often very close-minded.

So, having that global community and global perspective opens up your mind to what the world is actually, what is actually going on in the world, because we're often very sheltered from that.

Let me, I'm going to pull the thread on that, because I'm curious what this response is, Pastor Coco.

You, so, you're talking about how Final Fantasy has a very strong culture, right?

And so, like, it's a unique persona, the type of people that are engaging in that.

Globally, you're seeing reach, and people are engaging.

You're talking multiple continents, multiple countries, and, you know, some of the countries you're rattling off.

Like, even Europe and America, Europe is post-Christian, and so, as a result, Christianity looks different.

You're talking Mexico, Hispanic, strong Catholic.

That has a different kind of expression, and you're saying that countries kind of have their unique spin on church and Christianity as well.

What is the—I've kind of been theorizing on something, and I would love you to say I'm wrong, if I am.

I've been talking about how that the culture of the platform that we go into, Final Fantasy, that culture is predominant.

It leads over the secondary culture, which would be the countries that we're from.

Would you agree with that, or do you feel like, you know, a Hispanic, someone from Mexico, the Hispanic influence is stronger than the influence of the platform?

Does the question make sense?

Am I kind of clear in explaining it?

Yeah, I would say that the Final Fantasy culture wins out because it's something that we can all unite under.

Just like we're all supposed to be uniting under the banner of Christ, at least in Final Fantasy, we're uniting under Final Fantasy 14.

So we have the unity in that, but there is a little difference, and one of the reasons they don't allow cross-regional data center play as much.

I mean, it's opening up, but there's still some lockdown on that is because there are still different cultures.

So like the Japan, you can't go play on the Japan one because they have a different culture.

And if anyone from the other cultures comes in there, it could cause a lot of strife.

Wow.

And so Square Enix is aware of that, and so they protect that.

And help me out, y'all, that are from Final Fantasy in the chat.

What else do y'all see that's different about MMO?

Yeah, I'd love to hear.

We got, looks like Bunny.

At least I'm recognizing a lot of people I don't usually see and hear.

Bunny L.

Bunny Axel.

Is Axel as well.

We love the community aspects.

They may be around.

Tonic.

Is Tonic you?

Mostly adult.

He was making a comment on that earlier.

But I love that.

We've got Steve Reed making a comment.

Steve's brother from another mother on my side truly sounds to me like Ecclesia Jesus meant the church to be.

It's interesting.

Steve's on the older side of the equation.

Steve mocks me because I call him an old man.

So, but he's not, he's not.

Yeah, he is.

He's an old man, but he's, he's young at heart.

Let's say it that way.

Rexy, Rexy, Ronan, the cat.

They're one of the ones that goes across both.

Yeah.

Rexy will show up at our services.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, so she does Final Fantasy and VR.

Do you see, is that, is that the majority?

Is that a minority?

A couple of people, minority towards that.

Um, is, is there, I mean, you're mentioning like, um, Grand Theft Auto as a possibility and, and just selfishly, I just really want to see that happen.

But, um, like, is, is there, is there a roadmap for what's next or, or, uh, uh, you know, a passion area to explore next, even at an individual level?

Like what, what are you all thinking about where, uh, VR MMO is going next?

Well, our plans are continue to plant.

That's as we all have the, at least amongst the leaders, we all have that apostolic gifting.

And so we're going to always want to plant.

Um, but as you know, we're working on the multiplication aspect.

So it can't just be me and DJ and Alina that are doing it.

And, um, so we have to raise up the leaders to go do that.

And DJ's got plans that he's working out in his brain that he's always working on something and he's not ready to share those yet, but he's working.

It's, it's, it's fun to see the wheels spinning in, in, in his head.

But I would, um, you know, I love, I love the idea of, of having a foundation in place and not rushing into doing something before you have the, um, the structure in place to manage it.

You know, so often in, in, in physical church, it's, it's like, okay, we gotta, we gotta launch this campus.

We gotta launch, launch this church.

Let's burn the ships and get there.

And, you know, by the time you actually get it launched, you're not, you're, you're, you're fried and you're, you don't even have the stability to maintain it.

Um, and that's one of the things that, yeah.

And, and, but, you know, you all kind of circling the wagons up here for a stretch and, and focusing on a good, healthy culture, multiplying leadership development and, and, uh, being able to create a healthy foundation to be able to manage where you're, where you're going.

Um, I, uh, I just, I see that moving very well for, for you in, in, in the weeks and in the, in the months and in the years to come to be able to be healthy as, as you're growing and multiplying towards that.

Well, I know one of the things that we, we had talked about earlier, uh, was kind of the, the, the church hurt, uh, towards that.

And, you know, I've seen that.

I don't even want to call out in this conversation.

Like I've seen that in, in, in my interactions and in virtual reality and, um, and, and, um, what I've seen in, in some of the video conversations that even, uh, Coco, Pastor Coco, you and I have had.

Um, what is it like to, to, to pastor, to shepherd, uh, that people that, that are struggling, um, with, with some of this, this church hurt or, or, or pain or addiction or depression?

Like there's a lot of darkness in, in, in these, in these areas that, that you're in.

What is it like to pastor and shepherd people in these spaces?

Do you want to go first?

May I?

Or you go, go, go, go ahead.

Go.

Go ahead, Pastor Coco.

Flip a coin.

Go, go, go, go, go.

We do see a lot of, we do see a lot of the dark that, honestly, I don't think that a lot of people see in physical.

We see a lot of dark and we see a lot of the by-products of parents letting digital devices raise their children.

We see a lot of, yeah, that I don't really want to go into details, but yeah, we do see a lot of that dark and we don't have all the answers.

Cause we're still like realizing as we go and connecting dots as we go.

Oh, I think this is the issue.

And so now how do we deal with that?

We're still figuring it out.

Prayers is definitely something that's needed.

We, we have a lot of spiritual warfare going on a lot of dark.

Um, and so, yeah, we need prayers and life and acknowledging, cause that's another thing that I've experienced.

With physical churches is that they will not acknowledge your pain.

They will minimize it.

And so what we try to do is acknowledge.

Yes, this is an issue.

Yes, this hurts.

And here's what you've been taught.

Here's the truth.

Um, the, Alina, did you want to go?

Oh, I just, um, so like you said, there's a lot of dark.

Um, there is a lot of dark, but I also believe there's a lot of dark in the physical church as well.

It's just not visible because we, in the physical church, we're, we're taught to come at best space forward.

Like you get the mask, you, you get in trouble.

You're going to embarrass me now because we go to church and you did this and, and how, how's it going to look?

Where, and here, and you're going to get kicked out.

It wasn't kicked out.

Yeah.

Right.

There's this theory.

Then it's a family member does something, you know, um, in, in, so here it's, it's, it's opposite.

Like we try our best to draw that out of people instead of trying to hide it.

We try and, and see it because you can't address the thing.

If you're not addressing the thing, if you're hiding the thing, you're never going to get past it.

And so we, throughout MMO and VR, uh, really encourage honesty.

We want people to come as they are.

Don't hide yourself.

We want to see you.

We want to know you, not some, you, you think we want you to be, but you, um, and it's very exciting to be as, cause I have a very strong shepherd side.

And so to what, countless times, what an honor people have opened up to me in ways that they don't open up with their own family or their close relationships.

Um, I, I still have someone, uh, Melody who I met six years ago.

Um, she had broken her leg.

Um, she had posted in discord asking for prayer.

And so of course I w I was praying for her.

I reached out to her, try, you know, to help them whatever way I can.

Um, she was, uh, dealing with a, an earlier trauma who left her unable to speak.

Like, like she just totally shut down, closed off.

Um, and, and, and didn't speak, not even with her family.

Like did not speak for years.

And, um, even though a few years ago, she kind of, uh, stopped coming to VRMMO church.

Uh, not because of anything about us, but you know, life transitions and things change.

And she, she, she, she, um, moved on to different things, but she and I never lost contact.

And she, she, about a year ago wanted to meet me in VR and I'm like, absolutely.

Let's go do this.

And when we spawned in, she just started talking to me and I had never heard her voice.

Um, and she shared with me that I am the second person that she's feels comfortable enough.

Cause there's still, it wasn't just from nothing to talking to everyone.

There was a, a trust barrier and the fact that she.

Was comfortable speaking to me is such an incredible honor.

And so when we get the opportunity, I'm sorry, it's reminding me of a church adventure, Alexa, this miss.

I'm sorry.

Um, so, uh, just like incredible.

I cannot begin to describe it.

Just wow.

That we have the opportunity to, to serve people in this way.

Yeah.

It's pretty special.

It's, it's, it's ironic that you, you deal with people at ava with an avatar form.

Right.

And, um, you know, the avatar form is, is when people are the most real and, and, and the

people that, you know, are walking around in normal clothes and physical space, you know,

you, you said the word masks.

I think pastor Coco said it initially, but you're there, they're, they're guilty or they can be

guilty of, of, of hiding behind masks and, and putting up fronts, um, and, and presenting,

you know, the, the Instagram lifestyle that is not as perfect as, as it is once you drill

in and not that it needs to be perfect.

We're, we're, we're not, we're not judging them for having issues as much as questioning why

they feel like they have to put up those fronts and, and to, to put up those, those walls to

prevent it.

And, uh, I, I just, I love the, I love the opportunity that, that you all have to, to shine

the light in the darkness.

You know, we, I, I talk about this and this is one of the things with the church digital

we're going to be digging in a lot to over the course of the year.

Like, and, and you all with your unique environments of, uh, final fantasy and VR, like you're, you're

exemplifying this, we are doing ministry in digital, uh, in virtual reality, we are doing

in video games, we're doing ministry in addictive spaces.

People can get addicted to virtual reality.

People can get addicted to the, to the lifestyle of the games that we're in.

We're recruiting volunteers that are doing ministry, that will do ministry inside these

addictive spaces.

And number three, um, we are serving people that are addicted to the spaces they're in.

Or are very quick to highlight other addictive behaviors and, and, and suicide and depression.

Like, it's very easy for people to express these extreme level situations.

I don't know that it's a higher percentage.

I used to think it was a higher percentage than, in, in digital and virtual.

I, I don't believe that anymore.

I just think people are more forthcoming in, in some of these environments.

It's, it's easier for, for people to really express what's, what's in their heart as opposed

to hiding behind those masks.

And, and, you know, trying to help you as, both of you as, as pastors manage these situations.

But, you know, one of the things that, that I really respect about you two in conversations

has been, hey, I can't, I can't, I can't manage this all entirely on myself.

Like, we need to figure out how to reproduce and replicate the, the pastor mindset.

Especially now as you're talking about planting new churches and new ministries and multiplying

out.

Like, it's, it's, it's important for us to, to recognize, hey, we need to start to equip

others on, on how to handle these really difficult situations.

I, I would love to, maybe just some of the challenges or opportunities.

I know you're, you're literally smack in the middle of this, and I don't want to put you

on the spot, but as, as you've been looking at, at challenging people to, to step up pastor,

pastorally, embracing a shepherd heart, like what, what are some opportunities or challenges

that, that you are, you two are feeling about recruiting and maybe starting to develop some

of these people?

Are you okay addressing that?

Alina, do you maybe want to start that off?

Sure.

Um, so I think challenge number one is, um, it's funny because people seem to be so much

more open and willing in a virtual or digital space.

Um, but that still doesn't, um, the unease or lack of confidence and self, uh, is still very

much there.

And so I think that one of the biggest challenges is that people, even though we, we, we try and

cultivate this, um, we're in this together thing, like all of us playing, you know, one

part of the, the, the one body, um, each their own part of this one body and it's collective.

Um, the ministry should be done together.

Um, still people tend to not value themselves, not, they just, they don't have the self confidence

to realize that they can do these things too.

Mm-hmm.

And so sometimes that's a long journey, like a long journey just to get them from, from,

you know, coming into the doors to being confident enough to pursue, uh, these type roles in the

church.

Yeah.

And I think that's the, the, the, the biggest hurdle to be honest and time, uh, it takes

a lot of time, uh, to lead the church.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, uh, it's difficult.

People have families and they have to make a living.

Uh, we don't have the financial support to pay our pastors, um, you know, living wages

at this moment.

And that, those two things are our biggest challenge.

I think.

Yeah.

Um, Alina has the pastoral gift.

She's a shepherd.

She's a shepherd.

I'm not, I'm an apostle.

I want to forge ahead and I don't care if you come with me or not.

I'm going.

So that's my problem.

That's, um, Pastor Coco, you, yeah, I, I echo that 100%, but no, keep going, please.

Um, so I'm learning.

Um, how do I, um, cause that is part of the apostle gift is to teach others how to do this.

Um, the biggest challenges that I'm seeing is we've got a lot of people like Alina said,

who don't realize the gifting and the calling on their life and that they can actually make

a difference.

I was there once I was, it's like when you were having that women's discussion the other

day, it's like, I was told I couldn't.

So we have to undo those teachings, those false teachings that you don't matter, that it's

only the pastors that can do this.

No, it's everybody.

We have to retreat, retrain people into seeing that we're all in this together.

It's not just pastors.

It's not just specific people that were called.

Um, and so I've been working on that on my side, uh, on the final fantasy side, cause we

do our teachings differently in, uh, the platforms.

Sure.

And yeah.

So it's, it's, it's interesting.

I want to come back to the, to the women thing.

Tonic says here, uh, what I like most about this group is that they've been supportive of

me and my fresh start with God ever since first joining them.

They've given me all the resources to keep me on, on his path.

Um, what a, what, what, what a powerful testimony.

How long, like, what can you tell me?

Just quick snapshot of, of Tonic story here.

How long has he, he or she been connected with you?

When did you join Tonic?

It's been at least nine months.

Um, it's been a while.

Um, yeah.

It's just fresh start and you can find his testimony.

Um, yeah.

On our YouTube, but I don't want to put his words in his mouth.

I love that.

Um, bunny out the community helped me, uh, to reinvigorate my walk with God.

Pastor Coco and, and the new found friends I met in the final fantasy 14 side, uh, encouraged

me to take better steps towards healing.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

And I've, I've seen significant growth in both of them and, and in all of the people

that, um, are getting engaged, are seeing it.

Engaging God, engaging the word, not engaged as in getting married.

In community.

Yeah.

In community.

Okay.

And in the like services and yeah.

Tonic says about nine months.

Tonic says about nine months.

So, so, so that's good.

Um, yeah.

I mean, we, we talk about this all the time.

Doing something different bunny bunny's been about a year.

So I love this doing something different allows us to reach someone different.

And, and I'm going to tonic bunny.

Like I'm going to right now, I'm talking to you.

Yes or no.

Um, would you be involved at a physical church?

If you do not get involved in, in VR MMO, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Go ahead and type it in chat.

If you're available, would you be involved at a physical church?

Yes or no.

Um, and I'll put it on the screen when I see it come up.

I see it come up.

But time and time again, we see that people who, um, by doing something different, like church

in a video game, like church in virtual reality.

Yeah.

That is a radical concept.

That makes no sense to the average physical church attender.

Well, here in America, one out of four are still, uh, attending a physical church.

That number is decreasing.

And so to do something, to reach different people, to reach people that are not coming

to the buildings, we have to do something different.

And these two ladies are doing a phenomenal job in their, in their context of, of reaching,

engaging, evangelizing, shepherding, and discipling people, um, in, in these platforms.

Now, one of the things that I, it was interesting, I did not, and I publicly say this, I didn't

realize, uh, until, um, uh, this, it's interesting.

But Burn, uh, Bunny says here, uh, she would have attended a physical church, but online just

works better for me.

And that's great.

I mean, whether it works better or whether it was in isolation, what's important for me

is you are in the word, you're connected with somebody who's pastorally shepherding and

caring and discipling and, and challenging you, which, which I know is, is happening here on

these two.

But I did not intentionally, you know, we did the women's thing last week and had four women.

I did not intentionally the next week book two more ladies, uh, to come on and do this.

It just organically happened.

It didn't even occur to me to this morning when I realized, oh, I got a stream this afternoon.

Oh, I've got these two ladies.

Oh, I've got to come up with questions.

Do I ask the question about women's in ministry?

And I was like, but I really, we kind of hashed that last time.

And, and, and it was, it was like, I, um, I'm going to just, I'll be blunt.

I remember one of the conversations that somebody said last week was Jeff.

I longed to be on the show interviewed, not about women's ministry, about what I'm actually

doing in ministry.

And so like, I didn't want to like say anything.

Cause I'm like, I don't want to be that guy.

She's not wrong.

We need to do that.

But since pastor Coco brought it up and, you know, made it public, um, do you, what tension

do you all feel in the metaverse centered around you being women pastors?

You know, last week we had, um, uh, pastor Susie's wife, uh, Amanda on Amanda Souza, you

know, and she's talking about as a streamer, she felt a lot of that tension.

You know, uh, you, uh, you talked about Coco, pastor Coco, how, you know, you were trained

that it wasn't that and you're kind of reprogramming and relearning, unlearning and relearning

some things in your role, which echoed a lot of the things that were, um, last time.

Do, do you feel that from the average attender in virtual reality?

Do you get trolled by people in virtual reality that are slamming like Bible verses out of

context in final fantasy or in VR?

Like what, what is the perception of the average person in, in, in your unique, uh, environments

towards, towards you being women pastors?

Um, who wants to go first?

Yeah.

I saw that.

She's like, yeah.

She's like, yeah.

Go, go for it.

Alina.

Um, so average person.

It is not a problem.

Average person.

People don't even consider it as it doesn't cross their mind, but we absolutely get trolls.

People who find out that we are teaching and we are female, um, who come specifically just

to try and disrupt it.

Um, probably the most significant one in this, in this happened, it was a group of people,

um, who came, it was like their mission.

They would come week after week after week to cause problems.

And they would have this recording that was just playing on a loop that would, uh, they

came into the space and it would say, you are a Jezebel.

Women are not allowed to preach.

And it just was on this loop.

And so, you know, we, we ended up needing to kick them from the space and then they would

come back and this would happen over and over and kick them from the space.

Uh, I don't know.

They gave up eventually.

I haven't seen them in a long time.

I think it's, it's a seasonal missional trip.

So just wait till spring break.

Seasonal missional.

Yeah.

So usually.

That's funny.

Go ahead, go, go.

Or go ahead.

I don't know what it is.

Oh, yes.

So normally it's like a one person.

Normally it's not this, a group format that, um, in this case, normally it's one person.

Um, they, in my experience, they often wait till after service and then come.

And I just have a question for you.

And that question is, do you know, you're not supposed to be teaching?

Um, and so the, you know, we'll have a quick discussion.

They usually leave and don't come back because, you know, it's, they aren't going to convince

me that I shouldn't be sharing Christ with the world.

But, but they try.

Um, but the people who come usually don't even think one way or another about it.

It's only the trolls who, um, and again, occasionally there'll be just people who don't know what

to expect.

They come in, you're female.

They ask you a question.

You know, they ask you after.

And when you guys agree to disagree, they, they go elsewhere to find another place where

a male will.

Yeah.

Again, we're getting a different group of people.

Cause we get the ones that aren't accepted at church and that didn't grow up in church.

And so they didn't get taught that.

Um, so, and then on the final fantasy side, I had to turn off my DMS.

Um, you can't DM me unless you're my friend.

Um, and cause I would get people DMing me saying, really?

You're not.

Wow.

That, uh, they don't believe.

Yeah.

And it's really frustrating because they would in the same paragraph say, I don't believe

in women pastors.

Are you married?

Such and such age.

And I'm not married.

It's like.

I, theologically don't agree with anything you're doing, but are you single?

Who are you seeing right now?

Okay.

Yes.

Pastor D.

My DMs are turned off.

Don't take it personally.

Oh my.

If you can't get through to me.

Honestly.

That's, that's funny.

Pastor D.

We're going to have a conversation on this soon.

We'll bring you on the show.

Um, yeah, it is.

Um, I, I do.

You know, I, my heart goes out.

I, I don't, I don't know.

I, I, I literally, I had a conversation today with some of, some of the team.

Like, how do we, how do we handle this?

How do we address the women in, in ministry?

Like, how do we, how can we support more than we already are?

And, you know, how do we, how do we strengthen this and, and, and shield and protect or, or fight?

Like what, what's, what's the stance?

And so this is what, what these two women are doing are, are, are phenomenal.

And, you know, it's, it's interesting.

Some of, I, I, I made a conversation in, in talking about like, sorry, let me back up.

I made this observation today that the, the women that I have in leadership of the church

digital are the ones that bust my butt the most.

Like, they're the ones that call my crap that tell me.

And literally I was in a conversation with Stacy and I, and I, and I made some comment just off the cuff.

Not just, you know, something I would say all the time.

And I've said 20 times this year.

And, and Stacy's like, okay, Jeff, can I, can I say something in response?

And I was like, yeah.

She says, do you realize how racist that comment was?

And I was like, actually, no, I don't.

Can you educate me?

And she explained to me what that, what her vantage point was.

And I was like, oh crap.

That was not what I meant at all.

I made that comment because of something 30 years ago in a book that I read and it like

had nothing to do.

And she's like, was that book written by a white man?

And I said, actually, yes, it was.

And it's been quoted by hundreds of other white men, business leaders over the years.

And so, you know, we are ingrained, we're brought up, we're trained in this.

And, and new times doing something different is, um, is, is necessary.

You know, uh, doctor or pastor D here is talking about recognizing the apostolic gift, wherever

it is in, in, in men and women.

I want to share some love here as, as we're wrapping up.

Oh, Oasis Church VR.

So I'm assuming this is a VR tiger.

Uh, Alina was the Jedi world builder in, uh, all space VR who showed me the ropes when

I first got started.

And, and so, um, that's awesome, man.

You, you really sparked something in him.

He actually, uh, VR tiger built the, uh, the world.

I just saw it today for the first time, built the world that we're doing the, uh, metaverse

or the, uh, yeah, the metaverse conference, the digital missionary conference.

He built the world that we're going to be doing the conference.

And so excited about that.

Uh, David says, I'm an evangelist, um, not being, uh, attending, not attending to a real

church.

And I'd love to go to VR church no matter who's preaching.

And so, uh, yeah, there's, I know there's a rotation that, that comes around.

Uh, there was a, let me get tonic actually added a response back here.

Uh, and so the question I asked tonic directly was, um, if you were not at VR memo, would you

be attending a physical church?

No, it was his response.

Not a year ago.

God reached me where I was online through VR memo church.

Now that I've grown a little, I'm only now able to start looking for a physical church.

We'll see what God has in store.

And that's a great answer.

There's, you know, and there's a reason we do Saturdays, not Sundays to free up people

to have the ability.

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you, is there a, you know, do you have a, a trend or one off where people will connect?

Are you, are you helping give people courage to engage on Sunday?

Like, are you seeing that happen, uh, through it?

Or is that something you're striving to do?

Uh, pastor Coco.

It's not my main goal.

My main goal is to disciple people and get them closer to Jesus and to step into their callings

and whatever the Holy Spirit leads them to do is what I want them to do.

Yeah.

And I don't care whether they go physical or digital.

It's, uh, it's the Holy Spirit's, uh, job to convict.

It's God's job to judge.

Yeah.

Your job to love.

And so.

And it's their job to go wherever he sends them.

And if he sends them digital, then go digital.

Um, there's a lot of people who can't find a safe church in their local community.

So I love this.

Yeah.

This has been, um, go ahead.

Go ahead.

Go, go, go.

Oh, I was just going to mention Zeke who came and served alongside us for years.

Um, and he's recently, uh, stepped away to go to a physical church, which we were so excited

that he finally found because over the years he's wanted to go, but he couldn't find one that.

That's was right for him.

And five years later, he found this particular church that really serves him well.

Um, and I'm just so excited.

That meant that he stepped back from volunteering.

Um, I still see him from time to time.

Uh, but I'm just as excited if I lead you to a place where you're supposed to be, or if

this is where you're supposed to be, or what, as long as you are going where God is leading

you, that excites me, even if it is away from us.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's sad, but still I'm happy and excited.

Well said.

And, you know, and if God uses you to, to help people reconnect with, with a physical ministry,

I mean, that's a, that's a kingdom win.

If God uses you to, to help plant another church in virtual reality or, or MMO, or,

I mean, that's, that's a win.

Um, if, if God helps, you know, you restore marriages, that's a win, you know, and, and,

uh, your friend Axel is agreeing here.

I said, uh, pastor D are you interested in plant planting across different platforms?

Yeah.

We, we had talked about that.

Um, I mean, you got a couple of apostolic women here that are, that are ready to go.

The, the biggest issue is, is really helping or finding leaders to kind of come alongside.

I'm not putting words in your mouth.

That, that was kind of the, the, the challenge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, he enables, uh, also from VR MMO.

Uh, no, I'm sorry.

From Oasis.

Come again, man.

We're, we're getting the VR crowd, uh, coming on, coming on for, for this, this stream.

Go where God is, is leading you.

Rexy.

Rexy's with you.

And she's even asking.

I'm, I'm assuming she with the, the purple cat.

Sorry.

But, uh, why not, uh, X expand to world of Warcraft?

Uh, are you volunteering Rexy?

Ah, I'm, I'm, I'm just saying, um, I'd be, I'd be interested.

That's the issue.

I actually, it's a fun story.

I was, I was on a plane flight a while back and, um, ended up striking up a conversation

with a couple of the women who were sitting next to me and there were devs for Blizzard.

Blizzard is world of Warcraft, right?

Am I getting the company right?

I think so.

Yeah.

And so, uh, actually, hey, Rexy's owning it.

Rexy says yes.

Rexy says yes.

Yeah.

Rexy says yes.

She's, she's volunteering.

So follow up on that on Discord.

But, um, I was having to come pretty sure Blizzard, that was whatever company did world

of Warcraft.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard, but they were devs for, for Blizzard and they had worked on world

of Warcraft and like, what do you do?

And I'm like, oh yeah, I, I, I know world of Warcraft.

I am not the face of somebody who should look like world of Warcraft.

And so they were like, how do you know that?

And I said, oh yeah, we work with organizations that plant churches and video games and whatever.

And they're like, their heads works bloating.

You're doing what?

In where?

How does that work?

And like, and they were, they were so excited.

I literally, I've got their, their phone number.

I gave, I gave their, um, their discord to my kids because they were the, they were like, oh,

we'd love to, you know, talk to the kids about whatever.

And anyway, it's fun.

Thanks.

All right.

Hey, this has been a, been a great stream.

Uh, we went a little longer than, but just love the conversation at hand and a lot of engagement

and so appreciate the work that you all are doing in, in VR and MMO.

It doesn't sound like the metaverse is dead.

Not yet anyway, but, uh, we're, we're going to, we're going to keep plugging away and seeing

what God's doing, uh, in, in the space to come.

But as we're, as we're landing the plane, uh, here, uh, any, any closing thoughts?

Uh, Pastor Lena, you want to go first?

Oh, um, as you said, it doesn't seem like the metaverse is dead.

Not yet anyway.

Um, uh, it just sparked to mind, um, how my passion lies with quality and not numbers.

Um, so if I can serve a few people really well leading to action and life change, um, with

a few people, uh, versus just standing up there talking and, you know, with many people, um,

I would choose the few people who are making real life changes, um, any day.

Every day.

Um, and so I'm, I'm happy.

I'm happy with where we are.

Like, like it would be difficult with more people, of course, getting that support of other

people stepping up into leadership, then that is, you know, would be possible.

But, um, as we stand today, where we are is where we're supposed to be.

Like, um, I believe, you know, God is sending us some really interesting, um, uh, tests or,

uh, you know, refinement period for us.

Um, Coco, uh, Pastor Coco, you and I were talking about, uh, there's this sense that there are

these things that we must handle well, um, to, to go on, whether that means new platforms

or growth or some wonderful, uh, change in the church.

Uh, but we've gotta, we've gotta handle where we are well first.

Um, and so I'm just very happy with where we are is, is, uh, what I wanted to say.

And it's been an amazing opportunity that I never in my wildest dreams could have ever imagined.

Really.

Seriously.

Yeah.

I love how it's, yeah.

I mean, we, we kind of glossed it over, but it extended your, your ministry career.

You've got the health issues, unable to, to leave the house much and, and, and leaning into

virtual reality.

I mean, really just opened up a, a world of ministry opportunities as a result.

So love that, uh, that opportunity that, that you've had to, to reach and disciple people

in the unique space.

And so pastor Coco on your side, any, any closing thoughts?

Um, you can make a difference.

It doesn't matter what you've been taught, what you've been told, you can make a difference

and you're called to make a difference and God will empower you to do what you've been called

to do.

Yeah.

Um, and for those of you that are wanting to get into ministry in the digital space, another

thing that, um, we didn't, that came up while you were talking, uh, that I wanted to point

out was in the digital space, which is different than physical space in that you've got a lot

of people in with trauma everywhere, but the ones that are not going to physical church and

can only feel safe in digital spaces is because there is a barrier between them and the other

human.

And so that barrier makes people feel safe because they don't have the fear of somebody physically

attacking them for whatever reason.

And so I feel that because I have trauma too.

And I feel that safety when there is a physical barrier between me and other people.

Yes, I do still talk to real people in real life, but, um, that barrier is a sense of safety

for people who've been through trauma and do not feel safe going to a pastor, which is mostly

going to be a male pastor IRL, especially if they're female and they've been traumatized

by men.

They don't feel safe going to a pastor within a private meeting with a pastor alone physically,

but you can digitally and we also need more women to help those women.

So, yeah, I mean, top, top to bottom on, on all that, you know, there, there's a level

of almost, we're, we're, we're saying relearn, uh, but there, there's a little bit of, and

I'm going to use a buzzword, there's a little bit of deconstruction that that's involved in,

and I don't mean, um, deconstructing faith because I don't know that I'm, I'm talking about

re-imagining who God is or anything to that.

God's the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What we're, what we're doing is taught a wrong character.

I mean, what we're, what, what I'm actually suggesting is, you know, examine the, the practices

that you are operating under and are, are they biblical or are they extra biblical?

Are they scripture or is it outside of scripture?

And, um, and by, by the way, what you should be listening to is, is the Holy Spirit, uh, in

that God does speak through experiences.

God does speak through, through the past.

God speaks through scripture.

God speaks to, to people around you.

And so, um, be open to, um, maybe deconstructing some of these things and, and, and look and

seeing, you know, Henry Blackaby said this back in 1976, this, this quote's actually older

than I am, uh, look and see where God is moving and, uh, and join him in, in his work.

Uh, and then he said something to the extent of, if everyone set aside their selfish ambition

and vain conceit and joined where, where God is moving, the world would be changed forever.

And so God is, is moving.

That was actually a very profound quote.

I just, I say that all the time.

But if, if we would actually set aside some of our extra biblical preferences and seeing,

hey, by doing some things digitally and virtually and MMO and all this stuff, like we can reach

people that are church hurt, that are asking questions and be comfortable with hard questions

that we have to work through.

Um, like that's, what a great challenge for us as, uh, as people of God to maybe embrace

the MMO, to embrace the virtual reality, embrace this metaverse as the mission field that it

really is.

And so, yeah, uh, you know, uh, VR tiger, my quote drop.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm done.

Uh, give credit to, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, what was it?

Experiencing God, Henry Blackaby.

That's all Henry Blackaby.

But we're done.

You know, an old, an old white man.

And actually I wrote a, I wrote a blog.

Um, I, it was an interesting, it was Henry Blackaby, Henry Blackaby's view of the metaverse.

Henry Blackaby died before the metaverse actually came about.

But looking at experiencing God, his view of how like the metaverse could work in that

was incredible.

Uh, and so let's do this.

Somebody call Rexy and get Rexy Ronan started on World of Warcraft Church.

Uh, because I want to interview Rexy, uh, uh, like sometime in the next 12 months and get

an update with what's going on at, at WoW Church.

And, uh, you know, Susie will probably be going to get involved in that too, but we're

going to land the plane.

So, uh, Pastor Coco, Pastor Alina, thank you for jumping on this stream.

Uh, love it.

I wish we could keep going, but I got to go.

Uh, so we're going to land the plane for Pastor Coco, for Pastor Alina.

This is Jeff with the Church Digital.

Thanks for hanging out with us.

We'll see you next time on the show.

Y'all have a good one.

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