EP336 - The Challenge of Mental Health in Digital Missions

all right hey everybody welcome to uh the church digital podcast stream whatever it is we're

calling this thing i i may be in a little bit of a of a branding slump here um podcasts aren't as

cool as they used to be youtube seems to be all the rage and so we've been doing the church

digital podcast since i don't know 2019 and i got to rebrand this thing but not really because

evidently the church digital is is uh taking off and going awesome hey jeff reed here founder uh

president and um you know just uh in general windbag and so it's great to have you here with

us today um we're going to be doing uh some fun conversations uh i i love talking about stuff i

don't have a clue on and today's conversation is is going to get uh into that we're going to get

into the weeds a little bit on maybe it's soul care maybe it's mental health maybe it's chaplaincy to

be honest i'm still trying to figure all of that out but but we're what we're really want to get

into is how uh we the church digital can help you uh digital missionaries do ministry in uh digital

and virtual spaces so we've got uh some great guests we've we've got stacy we've got elle michelle

coming on uh two ladies that that have um uh they have some dirt under their fingernails so to speak

when it comes to uh mental health soul care caring for individuals in digital and virtual spaces so

very much looking forward to this conversation coming up um hey we've got uh some people jumping on with

us already in addition to streaming on youtube evidently mr pete jumping in from the outside

uh saying you are in big screen as well thank you mr pete mr pete is is like a a walking uh promotional

distribution channel all into himself and so uh if you do not check out uh the conversation we had

with mr pete a couple weeks ago maybe 334 uh loved it um i multiple people have said to me that i need to

have mr pete on to have a one hour theological conversation about the end of the world involving

whatever mr pete's uh puppet was i don't remember was it pete was that the name of the of the puppet

uh and so you know give the people what they want i don't maybe i don't know that i'm up to date on

the theology behind the end of the world necessarily you know uh pre post there there's a whole different

thing there but uh it would be interesting uh mr pete thank you once again for jumping on with us

troy is skipping school once again so excited it's actually not excited to see troy

troy what three more weeks bro like get your butt back in class just turn the phone off

finish up after you graduate you can go to town man love love it uh layton is saying let's go with

a whole bunch of um random things because once again layton speaks a language that none of the rest of us

do that's a common discussion here uh with with the church digital uh mr pete once again the distribution

beast that he is has got this posted uh steve reed is doing um comments from the outside talking about

gramps uh which is which is interesting gramps is what my father is called that's what my kids call

my father and so that was um an internal triggering mechanism that's okay and uh good news troy does

not have school troy has work and so we have cleaned up we've gotten through all the pre-show chat

of what's happening here excited about that if you guys have questions guys and gals anybody's watching

this uh feel free feel free to throw it in chat looking forward to this this the conversation at hand

before we get uh going on it i do oh steve actually i don't know was mr pete's puppet named gramps

it is okay yeah so el michelle is nodding in the green room it's gramps i thought it was pd

no disrespect oh my gosh mr pete's puppet is named gramps

there's so many just jokes right there um all right so i'm gonna have to have dinner with my father one

day and just you know let the dailies happen it'll it'll be good it'll be a good time anyway hey listen

something to put on your radar coming up uh may 20th tuesday may 20th we're doing a town hall meeting

those of you know with the church digital once a quarter we get together and do a town hall where we

ask questions we listen to what's going on uh with uh the people that are doing digital missions work

uh that are part of the church digital community and this is the really uh a part of the show where we

listen to you and we want to learn what your challenges are what you're stuck on um and and and really we want to start to

explore how we can help and so i'll just sneak peek this whole mental health soul care piece

is going to be a big part of of the may 20th um uh it's town hall in addition

the schedule of what our upcoming fall conferences will be announced on may 20th and wait the upcoming

fall conferences did he say plural yes he said plural uh i think i leaked it last week we're going to be

doing at least more than one technically you have to do more than one if you're going to say more

so yes we're going to be doing more than one conference in the fall thus the term conferences

and uh i i it's going to be more than two it's going to be more than three we still got we got one more

detail to figure out but it's going to be very exciting how i think all of this is is going to come

together and so may 20th put on your calendar 1 p.m eastern this time in about three weeks or so and

it's going to be a great time to come together and celebrate um a what you all are doing in digital

mission work i keep moving my hand which is making my camera out of focus uh it's a to celebrate may

the 20th what you guys are and gals are up to in digital and virtual spaces um and b start to talk

about how we can resource and help you better to to accomplish that and so hey great thanks looking

forward there i did it again i i just i want to i want to my auto focus i've got to keep my hand

lower because my camera focus is racking it's driving me nuts stacy knows she's she's got it anyway hey let me

introduce uh to the show to the people hanging out backstage uh stacy and el michelle

uh i would i you know el michelle i usually call you the coolest person i've ever met online which

does not say much for stacy so i i i feel like i need to to do a better descriptive so two of the

coolest people i've met on well actually that's not even a stretch you know stacy starts talking

about her dj days and it like she's so much cooler so much cooler no no no okay all right stacy how

many times have you seen lincoln park in concert oh that's a long that's a lot i'd say 15

cool yeah you know what i'm saying right there like i don't even need stace l michelle you are no longer

the coolest you you are a close second like you just got drunk oh yeah yeah it is it's a lot it is a lot

i know i know i will have to say i will have to say i haven't seen them in the last

eight or nine years though so yeah what what is the what in the not planned part of the conversation

what is the musical act that you've seen the most in concert

i well for me yeah is it lincoln park is it okay it is lincoln park yeah but but you know i've seen my

brother play many many times growing up and recently too so yeah i've seen i've seen the the worship band

that my church every sunday but i'm not counting that as a show so maybe maybe i should but that

wasn't on my list that that's funny all right yeah so uh let these uh these two ladies are

chaplains through through the church digital and so we're going to get into exactly what that means

and how they are are here uh to help uh digital missionaries help people like you be more effective

in the ministry that god's called you to do but before we get there i'd love to maybe just give

them an opportunity to tell a little bit of their story what they do what their background is and so

to kick it off uh stacy do you maybe want to share a little bit of your story and your background

yeah sure uh so it first started i think back in the day and it had to do with lincoln park uh so

i joined the message board the fan club and then message board and that's back in the days where you

had all these different threads going back and forth asynchronous and so it was really compelling

moment when i realized well these people are hurting and then um and they're sharing they're sharing

lots of details and and i was just present to them i didn't fix them i didn't tell them what to do but i

was just like oh that sounds really heavy or horrible and that really started uh an idea of chaplaincy

work i didn't know what that was gonna look like in my future this is in 2003 i didn't know had no idea

what that looked like but as i did more um experiences uh with chaplains in my church denomination and with

how they did that you know it was all these different industries they were doing so i thought

oh well what about music because i was into music that time and that's kind of where it started and

then as it's always been though in the digital space uh yes in person but my focus has been in the digital

space because that's where people are they were they were showing up so um and then got connected with

tcd i think it's through facebook maybe a few years ago and then um can't get rid of me

and involved with my church which is a mostly digital platform church imagine church that's it

i'm sitting here talking away and like y'all are being quiet i'm like oh the idiot i'm muted

sorry i i went no one tells the host no one checks the host we were just like

for like awesome hey andy we're gonna go ahead and cut out uh like moments uh eight to eleven we'll

kind of have to do some edits around that point though good very cool i always thought that you

found this dude through uh imagine church not not separate but maybe maybe i was off on that

it was a long time ago what do i know it feels like a long time ago it's really yeah

like four years maybe during covet

el michelle what's your what's your background

well um let's see in the digital space my background background is news reporting uh believe it or not

and uh just kind of reporting on news at the state level and politics of the time of the early 2000s but

at a similar time i got into writing a column that i called stories of faith at the time and

just writing people's testimonies because i love story and i love to hear people's stories and was

really pressing in more to god at the time this was like my mid-20s and i was like it'd be kind of

cool i'm doing all these news stories it'd be cool if i could do stories that were more surrounding

testimony so i started doing that and that just kind of led me down a path of finding more of god

uh more purpose like starting to do media more uh along the lines of media ministry which i didn't

know at the time i just was calling it media for god and uh so it started with radio ministry

um with my pastor now uh like 20 years ago just kind of helping out with the radio ministry and then at

that time there was like myspace and things like that and we were like we should start doing what we

believe on myspace too so that was like all the rage like yeah we're gonna do that then we were like we

need something called a website and i just remember wordpress was so big back then oh wordpress you could build

your own you don't have to pay people thousands of dollars to then decide they don't want to be your

web designer and take their site and your site with them so you know it was all about learning how to

translate what we were doing how to transfer that into more of a digital type package and it just

really grew from there to having smaller cameras like the flip cam and doing quick videos and then

facebook and the social social networks and fast forward to now it's always been emerging media and

technology and ministry how those things could merge but i didn't have much of a community until i met

like jeff and saw like i'm one of a whole bunch of other people who are doing this too i just

had not met them yet and um from there just began to be more encouraged even in the things that we're

doing now with smart glasses and the metaverse and and now i'm here um working more in the mental health

space i'll say during the pandemic is when i really found out about trauma healing which is my area of

a real interest in the mental health space and then um from there just started using it in these um

talking about trauma healing and wanting to host groups uh trauma healing groups not just

on zoom but in the metaverse as well and it just it has kind of led me now to i guess a point of

chaplaincy if you will in this particular area uh with the church that digital so no i i love that all

the way going all the way back to the flip the flip cameras you you that oh the flip camera wasn't that

a dream oh my gosh that triggered so many memories back in back in the day of that but you know you're

you're talking about um in in stacy i want to revisit some things with you as well but

you're you're talking about um you know augmented reality smart glasses and and you're you're tying

this into uh to mental health and and um you know life within and some of this so talk to us a little

bit because you really are doing el michelle you're doing some really interesting work kind of below the

radar here a little bit share with us what what you're doing with some of this technology

yeah well you know i just as you were talking you know just reflecting on the flip cam and things like

that it's just amazing to me how god will use any tool you surrender for him to him for his glory like

really any tool that's why it's never you know it's always the user not the tools that are the problem

so for me um to get into the work that i'm doing with smart glasses this started um i guess in uh 2016

with google glass i had this idea of making a life film i was like how cool because you know you had

the flip cam that was small camera you could just like kind of record these quick videos but i was

like how cool would it be to record your life um through your own pov like through your eyes

so it started with google glass but you know you got a lot of heat for having a camera you were walking

around and wearing at that time it's before it's time it was before it's time yeah yeah yeah they had a

name for people like that and it wasn't a goblin name you know so it was just like maybe i don't

know it was good to do this but i don't know if this is gonna necessarily be used to win people

but it was fun a lot lasting so fast forward to uh snapchat spectacles being a much better price

point um and just still kind of able to do some of the same things i thought during my 40th year of

life which is was in 2019 that i would record the year just as um documenting the year so to speak

but what i didn't know and found out maybe a few months in i started looking at the footage

and i started seeing behavior because you're not on camera face wise but your behaviors how you make

people feel you know um your mannerisms that you don't know this like those kind of things are on

camera and it it really started to turn more into a healing experience because i began to see

uh ways that i was acting out that i couldn't receive uh criticism about from other people

because i was just too strong willed so i would always have a comeback if they're like you're doing

this wrong i'm like and what are you doing wrong are you removing that log out of your eye first you

know i just always was kind of and that's why it's interesting for me to be in the mental health space

because i was a little rejected of it because i felt like if you're getting the word you're being

transformed and so i almost saw mental health as something outside of god in a way it's like you have

mental health when you don't maybe go to god first you need to kind of get help elsewhere when you could

be praying or seeking out your word i didn't see how it was just really all intertwined until the smart

class until my behavioral health came center stage until i realized the hidden traumas were coming out in

the video and i couldn't stop them you know because it was coming out of me through my own eyes and pov

and so it just kind of led to this journey which unlocked trauma healing like maybe you should

join a group and i was like a group and so for me you know i like being in this space because i'm

for the people who feel like they don't need it i feel like god sent me in this space for the people

who are like you know they're high performers or whatever and they just don't think there's anything

wrong when they have experienced some things that have been hurtful but may be suppressed and they don't

realize it's coming out for everybody else to see they're just missing it so the smart glasses

um it turned from a year-long project to now i'm six years into recording and recording the whole

decade in this way and healing every step of the way i mean it's a fortunate thing but it's

unfortunate because every year i think i've gotten way better and then i'll look back at some clips

and ultimately have to say i'm sorry i didn't realize this before but it just shows to me

shows me that healing is a journey so you're a work in progress that's that's a positive way to look at

it yeah and it's needed mental health is not apart from our relationship with god and in fact it's

another tool that he uses to help us live this life that he died for us so it really kind of brought it

all together for me through this smart glass project we'll probably get more into the uh the the trauma

recovery the trauma healing uh here in a little bit but uh you know stacy you're spending a lot of time

and and and one of the things that really impresses me by your work is is the amount of work that

you're doing helping people you know deal with grief uh via digital platforms and and how you're um

counseling available listening uh to people via digital when they're dealing with things that

so often has to be the the the ideas that oh that has to be done physically but you're finding ways to

do it digitally do you maybe want to share a little bit about what you're learning through uh welcoming

grief yeah welcoming grief that's the title of my ministry uh but i've noticed all it takes is observing

as uh in social media and being present uh and when people are sharing about just life in general it

doesn't take much if you're paying attention it doesn't take much when someone is sharing about

their their life transition even so it's not even it's not just the death of loved ones so that is

part of it but it's also changes transitions uh the other losses that um recall i've called it the other

losses of of life i mean job changes uh job loss um maybe maybe the role that you have as maybe a mom or dad

maybe that's changed maybe anything like that and so when when people are excited they post pictures

about their kids graduating and it depends on how uh the attachment or the relationship i have with

someone i will reach out to them i said wow that's exciting how is that going for you

it doesn't take much that's all it is i asked that question then they then people just the floodgates

open oh i'm so thrilled but i'm having a hard time i don't know what this is going to be like

oh my kids going to college away to college away to school they're moving out different things like

that so um and and that's just through a direct a private message and i'm not i'm not trying to fix

you i don't think you're broken i just think you're it's something a a life um life event that we don't

talk about all of the emotions that we experience in those life events and um you know we talk about

grief what does that look like no it's not just mourning the loss the physical death of someone maybe

it's even a relationship change with someone that you care about and it's different now it's changed

it's took a turn covet during covet a lot of relationships changed during covet so i walked

through some hard times with with people who had different opinions and strong opinions and because

of that the relationship changed and that was heartbreaking for a lot of people going through that

so um just being present maybe two minutes you could scroll on your feed and you will notice

you will notice life transitions whatever people share it's amazing what we share out in public

not even just to our friends but public sharing and i believe it's an opportunity it's really a compelling

opportunity to serve people in their uh their emotions and the change and grief and loss beautiful you know

steve reed says right here two eyes two ears for a reason i i guess he's uh calling to attention uh

intelligent design i guess so to speak only one mouth we'd probably need to shut it more but uh

very good with that well um as we as we look at um you know it's interesting we've been trying to figure

out i've for a couple years now three four years what's the role of of mental health and we've had

people in in the church digital we've had people champion kind of step into it um uh megan carter was

was for a season and we've done a lot of work with uh mindy calaguire with soulcare.com uh alongside and

so like we've we've i would say we've really toyed with the idea but we we didn't really

have a a clear focus on this until we really got into uh the place of uh being a digital missionary

sending agency and once we narrowed down to digital missionaries all of a sudden that opened up a lot

more clarity because now it's like we are trying to help make sure that our digital missionaries you

know and i say these these three a lot one we have people that are doing ministry and digital and virtual

spaces and the the spaces the platforms they're on are addictive they are recruiting volunteers a

virtual reality is is an addictive platform even social media the doom scrolling is addictive and

so we're doing ministry in areas that is addictive number two uh we're recruiting volunteers and inviting

them to do ministry in a platform that's addictive and number three we're doing ministry uh for

people we're doing ministry to people we're doing ministry working with people that are

uh we're seeing in digital virtual spaces it's a much higher percentage of addiction and so as we as i

have to sneeze and that's bad because that's true if i sneeze once i'm gonna have to sneeze five times

so i'm gonna shut up real quick um but really when we look at at the the the role of it of of

um mental health of of soul care towards digital missionaries and empowering them and equipping

them stacy and i started talking about the need of of a chaplain of of somebody who could come in and

it's interesting like stacy i almost want to ask you the question what does a chaplain do like like

kind of set the stage here a little bit uh for the church digital physically digitally what does a

a chaplain actually do yeah good yeah good question uh both in person and digitally uh we chaplains

are present in the end whether it's their immediate crisis situation or maybe it's a long-term thing that

someone's facing and has a deep need for care um in the technical in our in chaplain training we say it's

to decrease arousal okay i know that sounds funny but it's to decrease the stress and minimize it it's

not to fix it's not to diagnose it's not to come up with a treatment plan but is to be present in that

moment for someone so that by the end of the conversation we could ask how do you feel and

if they say oh i feel better or i feel like i have maybe tools to move forward and it's never about i

need to get over this as it is i'm helping you supporting you in that moment um for and and

chaplaincy work could be in various uh environments hospital um workplace chaplains different uh

different and so for me it is really in the digital space that's my just my primary but also i serve as

as a chaplain in workplaces everything from a um from a hospital uh a rehab hospital to

even manufacturing plants where i'm on the manufacturing floor i'm just present and we say

in our a lot of us we say this is that we are present in your worst moments life moments

and so what i referenced earlier is uh when i see the posts on social media some of those sound like

worst day situations and so it doesn't take much just to reach out and check in

um and in person in my workplace chaplaincy i'm literally i'm not i may be on the factory line but i'm

not having full conversations with some of these people it's literally just hey checking in how's

it going how is the holidays when it was the holidays i did not assume holidays were going

to be this positive great thing some people it was the worst time of year for them and so i just come

across with that just saying hey i know uh holidays are not always the best time of year so um i'm here

for you if you want to chat if you have something to share and that just opens the floodgate

so and i think that's how it is even in digital space the great thing is i i don't i'm not

expecting an immediate response from people you know it's the expectation that they just know that i care

and that is that's the love of god that's the love of god people can experience the love of god and peace

and care and if they could be on the other side of the world and they won't even respond to me

till the next day you know it just that's what i love about it about the digital space

so uh you know i'm hearing being there i'm hearing active listening um i'm hearing um you know

communication uh being of being available um el michelle you know i know you've done uh some some

works in around uh active listening in the metaverse you were actually one of our speakers with the

digital missionary summit talking about active listening in in the metaverse so as as you explore

you know the idea of of being a chaplain in the metaverse a chaplain to virtual reality and beyond

what is that what does that even start to look like for you yeah well kind of like what stacy said she

hit the nail on the head just about being there to listen listening is like very key especially in the

area that i'm most passionate about in the area of trauma healing most of it is about talking out the

pain already lodged inside the hearts of people a lot of times you know people are walking around and

especially you know behind our avatars we like to say in the metaverse behind every avatar is a real

person you know just like behind the keyboard behind the screen wherever people are those are people

that are there for the most part i know we have ai agents and all of those things but even people behind

kind of like masterminding these things it's still people behind it and a lot of people are hurting even the

pandemic was traumatic for a lot of people a lot of lost experience a lot of hopelessness and helplessness

at that time um of what we could do and sometimes grief uh could be traumatic if it's sudden you know

people unexpected and things like that so for me you know there are three main questions that we always ask

um in the trauma healing arena and there are three simple questions but if you listen it helps people

begin to process their pain from another part of their brain it begins their process of healing and

walking through um what may have taken place and those three questions are just simply what happened

how did it make you feel and what was the hardest part of that for you could be a whole discussion of

helping the person process the moment that caused trauma in their lives we find out we found you know

barna did a study on trauma in the church and pastors and you know many of them responded i can't pull

that's right off my head i'm like what is this that but it was more pastors than not that said lots of

members in their congregations were suffering from trauma and many of them felt ill-equipped to handle these

but there is a way even starting with not rushing but just simply listening and what that does take is time

it does take you know allocating this space to do that and it does take a heart of care of just genuine

care not just to keep membership or to be perceived as nice a nice person but just a genuine heart of care for

people who uh have faced some really tough things so for me listening is the key to that because like

stacy said whether they're writing it out or in the metaverse being such an immersive space i mean unlike

the video you do on a screen it's the embodiment thing it's like you know you actually be in there and

in a lot of ways i'm preaching to the choir but the immersive nature of the platform feels like you're

in person having a one-to-one conversation which is why i thought what a great idea would be to start

trauma healing groups in there because sometimes people don't want you to be associated with their

in real life persona so then you see them at the store and you're like yeah that's jim we're in a

group together he's going through a lot you know love to be have that anonymity that avatars kind

of bring to the equation but you're still sharing real-time sharing the deep parts of your pain which

people are more inclined to share more than they would in an in-person interaction just because they

kind of have a little bit of a barrier but what it takes even in those spaces sometimes i've attempted

to say all right i'm gonna do this group and we have these benchmarks we want to hit and almost 10 out of 10

times it's just about people having a space that's safe and that's caring and that's really they feel

the love of god where they can share what's on their heart they say is the most has brought the most

healing to them then they'll say now what else is in your curriculum but the fact that you will stand

here and listen to me without rushing me without trying to preach to me not trying to fix people

not listening to fix you know or listening to get your fix but listening out of genuine care

for people just i found to bring so much healing especially in the metaverse

where it is the real world space you know it is it's so funny to me no i appreciate it it's so funny to

me that uh people put on the virtual reality avatar mask and then they're completely transparent but so

often in physical space where they're they're completely seen that's when they want to hide it's it's it's

like they they need to hide if they can be seen but if they cannot be seen there's no reason to hide

and i love how through the trauma healing in the metaverse uh and actually this is some of the

mantra behind why uh digital mission work is so effective because we're able to engage with people

digitally and even virtually in in ways that you know the physical church in in physical missions just

doesn't doesn't have the the luxury and and the benefit of um so uh as you both look at this and by

the way i i love your your three questions there nicole highlighted them in chat so let me let me just

throw them up here real quick to reinforce what happened number two how did it make you feel

uh number three what was the hardest uh for you and of course uh nicole howard says hey stacy and

now michelle uh by the way stacy's here on a tuesday as opposed to being being stuck at work so hey stacy

like we see you that that was that's good glad you're here um talk to uh talk to us a little bit here

um as uh stacy just to to kick us off here a little bit as you look at okay chaplains as you look at

you know listening to people as you look at what you're seeing inside the church digital communities

you're no stranger to the church digital you've been around here for a while what are like what

what are some of the the challenges and opportunities we're facing uh just in general like what what are

some issues that you're seeing well i'm finding and maybe this is pretty basic across the board in digital

work ministry is that people are feeling alone to begin with a lot of times they come to tcd because

they're looking for community themselves uh maybe for their own maybe the initial was to be connected

with others who are in the digital space and whether it's a church or missionary or anything else

but they're already feeling alone but when they join the community they also are finding out oh i need

support and i need care whatever i'm going through and so um i'm finding that some people because there

is maybe not quite the support and needed where you know uh and maybe they're involved with an in-person

church that they're looking for other people to maybe share ideas but in the sharing ideas within tcd

you're finding oh there is support and care provided as well you know the there's a prayer channel and

people dropping their prayer requests in there and and even though it's across it's across the world but

there's always someone that's going to respond with emoji to say oh a heart or praying hands to say like i

i'm i see you i'm reading this and i'm praying for you in this moment and um with when it comes to

chaplaincy work while that is part of it as well there's the opportunities to serve people if they want

care then um more than just the opportunity of with the community in general that we are perhaps we could be a

person of support to you you know where chaplaincy work is not like we've el michelle mentioned we're

not we're not looking to to fix you or or uh come up with a treatment steps now it's not clinical

and just being the president yeah it's just to be to be present and the end of most of my conversations

i'll ask you know how do you feel how do you feel now as you did when at the beginning of this

conversation and maybe what's a practical step moving forward in this not to get over it not to

just stop your feelings but maybe moving a practical step in the next moving forward in that direction

and i think that's an opportunity for us not just as the chap those of us with the label chaplain but

how we can support one another in this in the digital space in tcd in this community we can

learn you know maybe it's it's about equipping others on how to be present for each other not just

maybe in the people you serve in the digital space but how about how how we serve each other in tcd

that's right yeah how does that reconcile with with you l michelle especially as you're thinking about

you know ministry of some of what you're seeing in the metaverse and some of the people uh that that

you've you've encountered uh in in vr and in other spaces um what what are some of the needs and

challenges they're facing um i think kind of like what we said just being heard in general also um

having to hide you know hide behind maybe being a high performer i'll never forget i was um

in a church in the metaverse and a man came up for prayer and after we prayed he said thank you he said

you know in real life i'm a marine biologist and i couldn't be as vulnerable as i was in this group of

people because of in his mind what he did and in some people's mind having you know mental health concerns

that showing or being a sign of weakness even you know my husband is a chaplain in the military so

we deal uh with this you know kind of all the time like you have this persona that you're you're presenting

when really you're kind of hurting inside so we're seeing a lot of people who a need to be heard a

are tired of hiding because they know that this is just it's it's it's it's really coming to a head

now you know like they're not going to be able to hide anymore they don't feel like they have a place

to go so then what is the what is the next step so them having like this kind of outlet helps keep them

on a path of hope and i was just thinking about something stacy said how people are lonely even

though we have more networks and more media just more things that we can get involved with on our phones

and otherwise more than ever before but a lot of people are numb to being empathetic to caring everything

is just so numbing you could even you know people might even pass it's just like yeah r.i.p to that

and then it's happy birthday to this in the next post it's just it's it is the way life is it's the circle

of life but i think having chaplains or even people as missionaries who are not numb who are empathetic

who are awake to things hurting beyond the few seconds it takes to scroll who follow up the next day

okay this happened to you yesterday they're not just like oh well let's get it popping for today

what's up no they're mindful but they also don't keep you down to that place maybe you are now moving

forward so they don't just keep you there yet you remember when you were down you know they're able

to journey along with you and i think that there's a real absence of that just on platforms and networks

in general just because of the nature of the game right so when you do find a place or a people

who are awake to the fact that this might have hurt a little bit more you still might be hurting or

it's difficult for you to process that or you know you need someone to talk to even though you are the

president of said company you know it's refreshing and i feel like that's really in this moment i'm just

thinking that's what jesus really wants for us to be like a fresh cup of water in the midst of

oh this real dryness that's out there it's just becoming really dry even though it looks like

there's a lot going on it's just making people harder and so i think when we come into the equation

and our heart is a little bit softer and we're a little bit more in tune to people as god is showing

us things and people in tune to us i remember stacy asked me one day or she asked somebody how they were

doing and i was there and i just told her that was profound like now it's profound to ask someone how

they're doing and really mean it you know and so i just think to answer your question in a very long way

because you see i like to go around the bush a little bit um people want to be heard for real

because they have platforms to post but they don't have people to process with you know

you have platforms to post but not people to process with yeah it's interesting judy uh judy says this

hey judy uh that almost echoes exactly what you're saying safe space caring and sharing feelings love of

god active listening uh not preaching and and not fixing it's it's interesting um i actually think that

digitally and this does fly counter-cultural judy digitally it's it's all about creating content

and so it's it's all about talking not about listening and so a lot of what we're describing

here through the church digital it is it is counter-cultural it's not so much about you talking

it's not about the perfect 40 minute sermon it's it's it's much more about listening

using more question marks than periods and for love of god never use an exclamation mark

in in recognizing how to do that in digital and virtual space uh and and so uh definitely love

this idea uh that we're starting to to scratch here judy thanks for sharing that appreciate that

oh my gosh white beard's even coming around nicole is building on that uh judy and the concept of

brave space for youth and young adults um here i just always want to anytime tom says something tom's

tom's smart plus he looks like um literally a monk uh because that's his his tom is the perfect

impersonation of the handle he has created for himself white beard punk monk have you have you

looked at his photo just saying uh i've had so many people in life who talk about mental health but have

never taken time uh to check on me um yeah tom i love that tom we've stacy and i were literally

talking about you an hour ago so you're checked on um yeah i've you know very good all right moving on

i've i now have found new people who care about me and and ask uh and nicole saying uh that is so true

forget about the aftercare the day after uh the the traumatic incident uh uh stacy you're shaking

your head yes sir you got anything to add on that yeah yeah i i want to add to that because in

chaplaincy in person chaplaincy training we go through days of training of of debriefing or or putting

people in groups things that may have happened with the whole group and it's not just in that moment

right it is continuing the conversation and if if if someone wants to uh you know follow up we'll ask

well do you would you like follow up we always ask that we don't assume that everyone wants that it

could be so traumatic they don't want to even talk about it yet and so we just it's when you're present

with someone that's something to think to think about um in that i want to go back to what el michelle

said because this is so compelling when you said earlier about um it's not about trying to fix

other people and it's not trying to get your fix to fix people or something like that that say that

can you say that again yeah i said you know when we're listening to people we're not listening to

fix them or get our fix you know it's almost like i'm listening to you to you know absorb the trauma

you've had then i could get my preach on about the trauma you've had and then i could feel like a

better person because this has been my help for today so good like what is that you know so i've

gotten a fix now i'm on to the next person what happened to you it's just it's just never in the

cycle but the it's all the motivation is not right because if we just really wanted to

have a listening ear i remember once uh it was after the pandemic someone had um a network was

just like you know you can book just a time where we're going to listen to whatever idea you have

it's like really and it wasn't they they put out there we're not going to use your idea or anything

we're just going to give you an opportunity to talk it through and we're going to listen and we're going

to ask you questions about your idea to get you to process it better it was like the best 30 minute

zoom i've ever been on knowing i didn't feel rushed i knew my time didn't feel rushed didn't feel like

they were like yeah we thought of that before nothing they were just genuinely there to listen

and they said if you don't have anything to say and you just want someone on here just looking we'll

do that too and i think it was their idea of helping people through the pandemic but maybe we need to get

back to that just doing a listening session for people i want to know more about that let's

without motive that offline no motive i want to know you know no getting our fix no trying to fix

well i i think we're doing a good job of talking about how to maybe care for self is isn't the right word but

care for a generation care for like those that are are underneath us we need to be better active listeners

um but by doing digital missionary um and we want to see digital missionaries multiply there's a lot of

of scaling of these ideas um where it's not just you know we need to be active listening but we need to

train others on on on how to do active listening so that they can be effective yeah the church digital

needs to scale but also individual missionaries need these ideas to scale out beyond just them and so

um what what does that even look like how do we maybe start to see some of these ideas uh scale out

oh i'll speak to that there is always opportunity to learn and even as i train other chaplains i'm

learning from them but i think it is really important for us to provide opportunities to

learn and when i say learn it's not classroom just classroom setting so el michelle and what you're

doing in the metaverse it's interactive it's not just oh i'm gonna tell you what to do but but but

practitioners i call us practitioners of this this is not just about oh writing my notes in my my notebook

here got it down oh i have these all even digitally but no why don't we like we talk about labs you know

uh in in in education oh i'm going to i'm going to the lab okay that means you're going to be practicing

it putting putting it into practice so i think that is key to um active listening learning learning

how to do it and then immediately trying it out on each other right so that hey that's the place to

make all those mistakes that's the place to to keep learning in that and um sometimes people say i'm

so afraid of saying the wrong thing well then don't say anything right right i mean just listen and

like you're saying go ahead practical being out there you know seeing it model i know uh in trauma healing

we have where you can go through a group yourself and then learn how to do groups for others so let's

say you're like l i'm interested in learning more about this trauma healing we work with the american

bible society on this and uh what i think is the best part of it is then i say yeah okay it starts with

going through a healing group yourself and that's actually a part of your training to then be able

to facilitate groups so when i went in i already knew i was like yeah i i'm interested in this and i

know i'm going to want to carry it forward but i was so blessed that the first few days were just me

going through a healing group myself and receiving what i needed it's like i got a chance to put my mask

on first and then go out and try to help other people using the airplane analogy you know what i

mean and so it is it is awesome for us to be partakers first and then know how to continue it on you

know so i know at least in the trauma healing space there's opportunity for you to learn more even if

you're like i've never think i've ever had trauma now you would be able to be more trauma aware of

people around you who may be dealing with some things and you just thought they are way off sometimes

but you'll be better able to understand what's kind of like driving those things so i know we we do

have opportunities and we'll open them up we hope here in the future for you to learn more about

these things go through these things yourself and then be able to share it with others yeah i mean

there is a little bit it was funny stacy and i were talking earlier today in in a cut you know okay if

you know me i say things without like filter and i just it's off the top of my head and my mouth

gets me in trouble a lot ask every teacher i ever had in school um and and i was like yeah

i mean stacy basically we we want people to smoke what they're selling right you know to actually

do the stuff that we're you know and and and it's that face that she just made was exactly the face

that she made at me when i when i said it and i was like okay um i'll go ahead and say it just to

say it but um maybe maybe maybe i'll get in trouble so if you have any hate mail on smoke what you're

selling go and send that to stacy stacy at the church.digital she would love to have a conversation

with you centered around that but we are um you know there there's some interesting things and

we're we're wrapping up uh some of the details on this right now uh but um we're we're talking right

now with an organization based out of south africa called project exodus now uh there's lots of

different project exodus is out there i always put this disclaimer some of the project exodus organizations

are good some of the project exodus organizations are bad and chances are you're not familiar with

this one this is kind of a below the radar one uh and so what project exodus is is it's a it's an

organization that's really centered around helping um people churches in our context digital missionaries

understand how to how to uh help people that are dealing with trauma dealing with crisis uh dealing

with sexual addiction type scenarios and and one of the things that that i love about this approach

of what they do is they are very intentional towards um not just um oh you need counseling let's get

you connected to a counselor and you can pay that individual 150 you know us dollars uh uh session

um instead you know a lot of the the training that they're supplying is based around volunteers

are based around non-educated non-clinical people and and helping empower them to be

more effective um in in our context the mission work that they're doing and so we are we've been talking

with them for a while and we're excited to but maybe wrap up some uh last minute details probably the

next couple weeks if a major announcement were to be made that would likely be made at the um the town

hall meeting on may 20th hashtag just saying so stay tuned for more information about that but it's it's

really about equipping normal people to handle you know some of the initial conversations uh we've we

had a situation you know god bless this church i'm not going to say what church it was but they had

i don't know three or four suicidal situations over the span of a month and like the the the pastors were

exhausted like they could not handle any any more of it and you know as i was talking to them i was like

hey wouldn't it be great if like you had volunteers that were in position that that could help cover

some of this responsibility so that that you didn't feel like you had to carry the weight of all this on

your own oh jeff yeah that would be incredible and so this is some of the things that we're laying the

the groundwork for now you know even facilitating and training uh recovery groups you know some of some

of the stuff i want i would love el michelle to lean into you know specifically uh stuff that that

she's doing um uh with the um the the trauma recovery uh but even on how to handle other situations

uh creating but the thing that i'm most excited about is we've talked with this organization project

to exodus the idea of creating a a healthy christ-centered recovery culture uh within the the

the church digital it's so interesting to me how um you know recovery almost is like a redheaded

stepchild among some church cultures where it's like oh yeah that's those people over there we don't

we don't talk about them oh you you got an issue you just go go hang out over there instead of

embracing the fact that we all got issues at some level or or not and so y'all we're going to be

leaning into this in the in the in the months and in years to come and so look for and a

more intentional uh announcement on this soon and uh probably some beta groups even even rolling uh this

somewhere as where we are um we're excited about this road ahead and and the deeper that we get into

digital and virtual community the deeper that your ministry will get into digital and virtual community

the more necessary the more necessary the more of a necessity understanding christ-centered recovery

and how to deal with trauma and crisis is going to be you know so i was talking recently with a a

pastor friend of mine and he's like yeah jeff this is the stuff that we don't literally this is a

executive pastor at a mega church here in miami yeah jeff this is the stuff that uh we don't deal with on

sunday morning like sunday mornings it's it's not it's so stacy probably had one of my favorite quotes

of the day um and i'm gonna i'm gonna butcher it but pastoring is is to sheep what what uh what was

that what was the line stacy oh yeah give it to pastors yeah pastors tend to sheep or care for sheep

and chaplains care for goats wow and i was i was like oh my gosh because past pastors it's pretty

pastors it pastors it's easy pastors you know you get your nice system running and everything lines up

uh but you know chaplains missionaries you are much more at the edge and uh that goat goat ain't as

pretty and that goat ain't nearly as easy and that goat will kick your butt given the opportunity and

so uh yeah sit in that one enjoy that tonight pastors are anyway that's good yeah i'm not saying it's

tattoo worthy but it's it's uh it's it's up there it's close yeah that was good especially since we have

a goat culture greatest of all time yeah you know oh yeah oh wow that just took it to a whole other

level that's fascinating yeah we got so you know yeah so anyway we gotta we we it just makes me think

a lot of people can put on their sheep suits for sunday but be goats during the week like and not make you

want to be but they don't know how to be fully transformed so it's good to have all us you know

good yeah yeah well hey let's um let's talk a little bit practical because there are some hey

you know what i said there's going to be some announcements coming soon uh stacy el michelle

others behind the scenes are aggressively um working uh towards some solutions you're going to be here

more about this in in the days and weeks to come uh but there is something that that we're working on

right now that that's going to help and there it's already in place but we're going to kind of publicly

launch this thing or or kind of fine-tune it a little bit today and and i'm talking about in our

discord and in our whatsapp communities we've got a a channel or a group called um missionary care

right missionary care and and so um stacy do you want to talk a little bit about what what we want

to see and what the aim of that missionary care is yeah that's good yeah yeah the the aim is so it's a

community um but it's a way for actually us to practice not fixing people it is where we are

listening to what people post or what i post even any of us that those of us that are serving in the

digital space that maybe there's a challenge um and it's not so much about how do i do this but it is

how do i i need i need care right what i'm thinking so it's it's almost like those of us

that are reading them we can practice our listening skills in that it's not quick to respond well have

you heard of this ministry have you been a part of this group or things like that it is it is being

present to someone so um so if someone says their loved one uh just died and they're just heartbroken

and they post that and in the missionary care well you know what how about just a response to say

i'm sorry that sounds really heavy i'm praying for you or even post the prayer in response to that

sometimes i'm literally writing typing out my prayer and it the prayer itself is just a prayer of support

not to say uh um lord i pray that this person um goes to this group or have you heard of this group you

know those kind of things that because that's that is a step to try to fix someone's pain

and heaviness of what's weighing on them so uh yes yes there may be opportunities for that if you

feel like god's leading you to to say something else that that maybe it's a direct message you know that

that the community itself really is to be supportive of someone and whatever they're they're experiencing

um it is not about us to give them um all these resources there may be a time for that later maybe

personally and personal if you have relational equity with someone that that may you may be able to it

might be appropriate to send a private message to them but if it's someone you don't know i mean how

many people jeff what's that how many people are in the whatsapp and discord uh i mean we've got

we've got over 600 maybe close to 700 in discord maybe 400 almost 500 in whatsapp i mean there's

some overlap but we've got a significant number of missionaries um in in both aspects and and so

um l michelle will be hanging out in discord and uh and stacy will be primarily focused in in whatsapp and

uh now it was so funny it was initially the plan was leighton is is giving me discord is 670 right now

so yeah we're very close to 700 there last i saw whatsapp whatsapp was 452 i think and so it's and

it's been been growing actually we've been kicking a bunch of spam bots out so it may actually be down

but uh it's hard it's hard to tell in whatsapp whatsapp's being whatsapp the um but what was

interesting was is that um whatsapp was i thought gonna be primarily global and and there is a lot of

global in there but there's a lot of us influence in in whatsapp and also at the same time we're starting

to see a separation of the two communities where initially when we launched whatsapp it was both

it was people in whatsapp and discord at the same time and now we're seeing distinct users in whatsapp

completely separate from the people that are in discord it's not like people are double populating

or double existing in the communities they're picking one because that's the goal like i don't i

don't want you to feel like you're having to carry the burden of being in both but the people that will

hang out in discord are not the people that want to hang out in whatsapp or vice versa almost it's it's

two really completely different platforms um but our our goal is is to start to create an asynchronous

community that would allow for um you freedom to to post some of some of these thoughts yeah okay now you

can you know post uh prayer requests but oftentimes what you would pray for and you know something

missionary where it's open to yourself it's it's two different things and so we didn't want just to

isolate missionary prayer into prayer requests as much as to highlight it as something else and then

there's you know down the road there's going to be much more that we're going to get into as the

church digital continues to develop uh more equipping partners um develop uh what mobilization looks like

as our outposts develop and move forward and so we're really excited about what the future holds

uh for our our digital missionaries at a global scale but uh what you're seeing now is is literally

those first steps in creating a healthy culture uh because i i i don't know much uh but i know that

culture eats strategy for breakfast and i would rather have have a healthy uh as a as a as a strategist

i would rather have a healthy culture than uh a kicking strategy and so we're gonna we're gonna take this

time now to start to build that that culture out um well recognizing uh the importance of of of

recovery of active listening of recognizing trauma and crisis and all of these things because it's just

going to get more and more in this situation barna rolled out uh and i'll close with this but barna rolled

out a stat um crap just like you uh l michelle i'm blanking on numbers right now but it was uh the the

punchline to the stat was that gen a and gen z there's a small little uptick where gen a and gen z

is starting to re-engage in spirituality and is coming back to god and is starting to see jesus and look for

jesus more than they had in previous years but what was interesting in that equation is that they are

not they are not going to church buildings and so the the generation has a small little uptick

uh but the the brick and mortar buildings flatlined or even down in some of the categories and the the

the the takeaway from this is um actually steve was blowing me up on i think whatsapp because he's

like well doesn't that mean that digital missionaries this is our time yes that is what

that means is that digital missionaries doing something different to reach someone different

there's now an opportunity digitally to engage to reach that and so understanding some of this this

healthy approaches uh is going to make us far more able to to connect and engage uh with

that which is why that culture is is so important and so ladies thank you very much for for the stream

here um no i i love it l michelle as as we're wrapping up any closing thoughts on your side

um i'm glad we're here i'm glad we're here i'm glad that we took this time to listen to each other glad

everybody who's on the feed is on the feed um and really big goal for me or big ask or big prayer big

want would be for missionary care to become a part of everyone's mission or thought process just a little

bit you know as we're interacting not just like yeah go over there or like the pastor said we don't

really deal with that on sunday but having a heart to deal with it on whatever day you know in in a way

incorporating this in some way active listening doesn't have to have a ministry name on it it's

just being a human being who empathizes with the people around them and recognizing people not as

the machines that we operate with with our expertise but seeing people as the people behind it you know and

just being cognizant of that that that would be my big prayer that this would become a part of

everyone's thinking even if it's just a little bit that have to be what you do all the time but just

now taking a step back and maybe listening a little bit more which is why i know i could keep talking on

and on because no one's going to want to cut me off because we're active listening right now no but

seriously yeah you may be taking advantage of the process we're trying to wrap up but we're not

going to rush her because we're listening to her but no seriously just trying to um not be numb to it

anymore but being more awake to the fact that if someone is in your presence it really is for a reason

so kind of giving into that a little bit more than our own agendas and things like that but that's it

that's all i would say as a final word we hope that we will inspire everyone to walk in these ways

love it uh stacy any any closing thoughts on yourself sure yeah the invitation i have is inviting

god to speak to you and listen how to be a minister of presence that is really essentially what chaplain

and say chaplain yes i have that title but no as as messengers of god's love and care

it is about being present being a minister of presence and so i that my invitation to you is pray about that

how can you be present for others um in whatever they're facing and then just a practical real

practical thing about listening more than talking um my mentor shout out to uh to gail j yandel my mentor

top of mentor she said some people just do this when they're listening you know like you can't see it but

you know putting your just your one one finger over your mouth when you're listening to someone it literally

keeps you from talking and i thought wow that is super practical you know or or something that's just

gonna prevent me from talking but really focused on listening to someone um so that i don't fall into the

temptation to speak when someone is just trying to be heard and expressing themselves because that's

what it is people want to be seen heard and understood that's that's so cool just kind of

yes i'm deep in thought okay i'm i'm pensive i'm listening i always i've always thought this meant

you're hiding something you know it's like that that was that was like that was like the 20 30 years ago

right it's the it's if you're doing something it's it's like you're you're hiding what are you hiding

something it's like the body language for that but which is why i i kind of do this i'm standing and

so i kind of like you know put my arms this way but it's like now i look like i'm ticked off and

which i'm not and so i've kind of trying to figure that out but uh very very good it's interesting gail

we'll uh we'll give that a shot a little bit and uh you know el michelle just wanted to make sure

you you got that you got that down yeah very good and she she pulls that off so much better than i

does that's that's so good yes cool yeah yeah so so much cooler cool i'm just a bald dork with a

beard like she she has you both y'all got to look all right hey we're gonna we're gonna wrap uh it's

so funny my andy keeps texting me i'm i'm three minutes late for a meeting with him and so i gotta go

we're gonna land a plane for for stacy for el michelle this is uh jeff at the church digital

find both of them in whatsapp and discord for any uh more questions with them and tcds uh

whatsapp and discord they love to connect with you and uh but hey more coming soon don't forget about

the town hall may 20th thanks y'all have a good one talk to you later thanks bye bye thank you