EP340 Jeff & Jose de Urquidi Discuss Learnings from Catholic Digital Missionaries

All right. Hey, welcome everybody to the church digital podcast. We are chilling out, man. It's a chill vibe. This Tuesday was a holiday here in America, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, and I was I was actually out of town for a wedding, hanging out with a family up in northern Florida where there was no Internet.

And so God bless like people that live in very rural areas that do not have Internet or cell phone. I just I don't understand that that mindset. My you know, I'm all for like being present. I'm horrible at it, but I'm all for it.

But I just I don't I don't get the rural nature of things in 2025. But that's that's my bag. It's not yours.

Hey, so we're hanging out here with the TCD podcast. Last week was the town hall meeting. A lot of energy, a lot of really cool things coming up with with the church digital.

So we heard from you. Check out the results of the church dot digital slash poll, the church dot digital slash poll.

But but we are we really kind of chilling out here in between town hall and the new season that's kicking off next week.

We're going to be doing a season on equipping partners and empowering tools.

And so we're going to be digging into a lot of the the software, a lot of the the tools and honestly, a lot of ministries that are that are out there that are wanting to support digital missionaries like you.

And so it's going to be a very practical summer as we're getting into the weeds, so to speak.

Actually, I was told by my South African friends, we are not allowed to say phrases like in the weeds.

We're not allowed to get into the weeds because in South Africa, that literally means smoking pot, not not implied like it would be here in America.

But it literally means I'm going out back to smoke a doobie.

And so I I said that phrase to to our ministry partners over Project Exodus and dude shot me a sideways look like it was it was like the side, the evil eye.

I was like, what did I do?

You know, I'm embarrassing myself enough without all these cultural differences.

And yeah, sure enough, I just steps square in that thing.

And so it's good stuff.

And so but as we're heading into it, we've we've got some of our friends hanging out with us today.

We've we've got the Steve Reed, Steve Reed's hanging in here, flat cap as well.

But I tell you what, I'm looking forward to this conversation as part of the first digital missionary conference.

I heard echoes in the wind, almost like a whisper.

Hey, Jeff, did you know the Catholic Church is doing something with digital missionaries?

And my response was, no, no, I did not know the Catholic Church was doing something with with digital missionaries.

And sure enough, I got I got introduced.

Josh Packard has been been working with the guests that I have in this conversation today.

Hey, dear kitty for, I don't know, a season.

We'll get it getting more into it.

But I really started to discover, I don't know, the Catholic version of Jeff Reed over on that side.

The guy that's been helping the Catholic Church, exploring, experiment with with digital missionaries in that space.

Are one of the people that that's been doing that.

And so I jumped on a couple Zoom calls, Google Meet calls.

We almost met together in physical space.

And I was in Dallas where he lives for a stretch.

And we just could not get the schedules to align.

But I told him, I was like, hey, let's do a stream and and definitely want to do a podcast recording with you to share some of these ideas about what the Catholic Church is doing and what they're learning in the space moving forward.

And so, ladies and gentlemen, for the conversation, let me bring in Jose.

Jose, how are you, my friend?

Doing good, Jeff.

Thank you for having me over.

And yes, hi.

I don't know if Josh Packard is listening, but we're doing a great job at Future of Faith.

Thank you for everything, Josh.

Yeah, I doubt Josh is listening.

I think Josh is a little above my pay grade.

But no, it's we were we were blown away.

Josh was was interviewed as part of our conference, digital missionary conference.

And it just was it was an incredible section.

One of our one of the digital pastors, one of the digital church planters names Josh Harris, Dr.

John Harris, Dr.

John.

And he is obsessed with Josh Packard.

And so bringing the two of them together like it was fanboy 101.

It was was really a lot of fun.

But so let me let me just ask this question, because I am I'm way out of my league here.

And like I know flat cap and Steve are both asking like they want to want to learn from this.

So, you know, let's just kick it right off.

The Catholic Church is doing stuff with digital missionaries like drop some education here.

What what are you guys up to where can where can we start?

Well, first of all, let's say there's there's two different ways to approach what you just said.

Right.

Because since the Internet began by social media, of course, Catholics have been doing stuff.

You know, the thing, let's say the difference right now is that for some years now, let's say institutional church, right, is recognizing what these people were doing behind the behind the platform, behind an account and whatever YouTube or Instagram, TikTok or whatever.

Right. So that's the face that we're in, but of course, since the beginning of Internet, since my space and ICQ and all the different things that existed before the social media that ICQ, wow, that was a throwback.

Yeah, thank you.

Did you hear that when I said ICQ?

Did you hear that?

Yes.

That was very peculiar messaging sound in your head.

I did.

I won't try to mimic it.

Well, we all heard it if you're old enough.

If you know, you know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So the thing is, of course, there's always been people trying to evangelize online and form it and, well, accompany others to the church online.

That has been going on for a while.

Some of them have been calling themselves, whatever, Catholic content creators, Catholic evangelizers, online evangelizers, some even digital missionaries for almost a decade now.

But the thing that we have right now is the institutional church.

And with that, I mean, the structure, you know, we're a very hierarchical church, a very hierarchical structure.

Yes, the Vatican, but also every diocese, which is almost always a city or a couple of cities or a region, right?

It's a bishop, which is a successor of the apostles.

And it's like very hierarchical in a lot of senses.

So that part of the church has been opening, let's say, size for the last maybe, well, a bit more than a couple of years, several years now, trying to see what's happening there with people who are doing this because they feel it's their calling, who are reaching people that the institutional church can't reach, right?

And also who are, who are there trying out, experimenting at different ways of getting Christ out there and, well, through His love and mercy heal everyone who's out there in what we call the existential peripheries of the internet, that they might be suffering or just searching for meaning, for purpose, for love, for truth, for so many things that they can't find and they're just doom scrolling or addicted or whatever.

Well, we have to be there.

And the church is recognizing we have been there.

Now we have to recognize them and, well, make them part, let's say, of the official structure without taking out their, let's say, independency and without trying to control them, et cetera, et cetera.

And I could talk hours about that, but, well, you know, just that's, that's a phase that we are in right now as a Catholic church.

That's beautiful.

So, you know, there, there's a lot that, that I want to dig, dig into to follow up on, but, but let's, let's back up.

You've got, and I don't mean any disrespect by this, but you've got a new boss, the previous, you know, Pope, Pope Francis passed away maybe a month ago at this point.

It feels like it's, it's, it's, it's been a little while and you got a, an American now, Pope Leo.

I know Pope Francis was a little more comfortable in, in digital.

And that's, was where you seem to get more institutional movements forward.

Is the new person, is he vibing as well?

Or what is, what is the, maybe the digital look like in the new, new organization?

Well, two things, well, several things, but let's say starting with two.

Francis understood the power of gestures, the power of being out there, being the good Samaritan out there.

He, you, he loved that parable and, and asked us digital missionaries so much to try to be that good Samaritan online.

And, and, and so many things that he taught, told us, let's say, or invited us to be, but for instance, he didn't own a cell phone before, before becoming Pope, right?

He, no kidding.

He was 88 when he died, right?

Wow.

And he was in the job for 12 years.

So he was pretty old when he got there, right?

So now Pope Leo, Leo the 14th, Robert Prevost, what's his, what's his name?

He owns an iPhone, right?

He has an Apple watch.

He plays Wordle.

He, like, he, he's on WhatsApp.

He's on Gmail.

He's like, so it's a very different mindset, let's say, just, just having that.

So, so yes, Pope Francis knew about the gestures and the reality, but he also admitted that he didn't understand much about the digital culture.

And that's why he started relying a lot on people around him.

And I can tell a lot of stories about that, but, but, but, but one, one thing right now, that's really cool about our current Pope, right?

That he's a missionary, as you know, or as you, I don't know if anyone listening knows, like, yes, he was born in Chicago, but he was a missionary in Peru, right?

He spent a couple decades in Peru.

He has a Peruvian passport, right?

So he, he became a bishop and was ordained there and was sent there in Peru because that's where he was a missionary, right?

And we're talking about digital missionaries, right?

We're talking about the online world.

He's a missionary.

He has a missionary heart.

And before that, he was a, he was a, before being a bishop, he was in charge.

We call it the superior general, right?

Of his religious order, the Agustinians, who have been around for almost a thousand years, right?

And, and he traveled everywhere in the world where there was a monastery of Agustinians, right?

So he knows the realities all over the world by issues.

He has, he has been, uh, uh, yeah, he's, he's very much into all the realities in the world.

And also last, last year during October, if you recall, Jeff, I, I spent the month at the Vatican again, uh, during the center of the synodality.

Well, Cardinal Prevost, who was Bob Leo's name, right?

He was on the same table as I was for a couple of weeks.

So, yeah.

So we shared table and that means Monday till Saturday, this is the morning, which means we started prayer and everything in the morning.

We started each session like around 8.45 after, after prayer and everything in the morning.

Sometimes we had mass, sometimes it was just different prayers and then all the way till 7.30 p.m.

So that's Monday till Saturday, right?

Two weeks, I was in the same table.

Of course, it was 10 of us in the table, people from all over the world.

Our particular table was the language was English, but we had Africans, Asians.

Well, I was the only one from a Latin American country.

We had Europeans, right?

We have, we had people from all over.

And, well, as you can imagine, I always brought up and my agenda, let's say, was trying to put the online, the digital mission front and center.

Because in my mind and so many others, we thought it was or we think it was a response to what Francis, Francis was invited us to be a church that goes out of itself, that goes forth where people are at, right?

So people are at, right now, online, well, that's where we need to be.

And who goes there?

Missionaries, et cetera, et cetera.

So I talked a lot about that in my table.

And Pope, well, the now Pope was there, right?

And let's say that we talked a lot about these sort of things.

I was in Rome, I came just a week ago from Rome, and I asked, I still can't tell details, cannot tell details of what he said, let's say, of what was said inside.

It was supposed to be Chatham rules, so now it doesn't work.

If I had said, if I hadn't said it, I was with the Pope, I could tell you.

Someone in the table, but now that you said, I can't really say, but let's say he's supportive 100% of the online work that we're doing, that we're trying to do,

that so many thousands and thousands of Catholics are trying to do online, to introduce people to Christ, basically, to his love, to his mercy, and walk with them towards the truth.

That's what we're doing, right, online.

So, we're just, it's not a month, we're just three weeks into the pontificate of Pope Leo.

He's a very different kind of, let's say, personality, character, way of doing things that Pope Francis, he takes things more, let's say, slow.

He's not, he doesn't speak that much out of that, just off the cuff, right?

So, it's going to be a very different thing, but I'm sure because he's missionary, and because of what I talked with him, and how I see him vote,

and how I saw him act within those two weeks working with him last October, he's pretty much going to be supportive,

and he's going to be doing a lot of things to really see the internet as the new missionary frontier,

and I could expand a lot of the work during the synodality around that, but, well, I wouldn't put him into,

Francis knew what he was doing, and this guy doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

I think the opposite.

This guy has been using it a lot more in first hand, and he still has his iPhone.

He still has his Apple Watch.

He still responds to Gmail, and I'm not saying that.

It's not just, I heard, right?

Like, I know he still responds to Gmail, right?

Because he has responded.

Very cool.

So, very cool.

So, very excited about what's coming.

So, you all, on the evangelicals, well, at least, I'm going to say my footprint, my experience.

You know, I've spent decades working with the established churches, trying to help them.

Now, I get the feeling, like, the organizational structure that I've worked with is much more decentralized.

Like, there's not the organizational structure up high that you have.

And so, it's almost going individual with churches or occasionally a denomination, but there's not nearly the alignment that necessarily.

And so, almost arms up in the air, I can't get the churches to see the big picture of this.

I'm kind of giving up, and I'm starting to now work with individuals and missionaries and starting to create more movements outside of the church.

Now, globally, there does seem to be more openness to then what you and I are used to seeing maybe in the East a little bit.

But you're painting a different picture, or maybe, you know, the Pope sees it, but maybe archbishops do or don't, and there's some control.

And so, maybe talk a little bit about some of the organizational wins and struggles, maybe, as you're trying to create this digital movement globally.

Cool.

There's, well, you said, no, we have, let's say, the Pope and the people around him that help him, let's say, in the church's government.

At the end, the Vatican State, like, it's a state-like, right, the city-state.

And also, there's a lot of things that need to be managed, let's say, not just in properties and temporal goods, et cetera, et cetera,

but in so many ways, to appoint new bishops, to help countries in need, so many things that are done with the hospitals, with schools.

Like, there needs to be a lot of structure, and some places, like a lot of countries, of course, can't sustain that structure.

So, that needs to come from somewhere, and that, of course, comes from the Vatican, or the Vatican is the one that manages from rich countries to poor countries,

and missionaries from here and there, et cetera.

Now, again, with that in mind, and yes, we are very hierarchical in structure,

then there's the other issue that we, like, every bishop can trace their, like, who ordained them, let's say, all the way to the apostles, you know?

So, that's a cool thing, but that also means that, let's say, the Catholic Church has uniformity in doctrine, right?

And liturgy, right?

In terms of faith and morals, to some degree.

But then, every bishop, basically, is its own king.

So, yes, changing a thing of doctrine that we have thought to be true for now two millennia, right, won't be easy, right?

That won't happen, changing things that we have thought for centuries or millennia, that won't happen, right?

Even though a bishop or several bishops want, or even though the Pope wants to, there's going to be pushback and, let's say, locks to keep that.

But, on the other hand, and the liturgy, same thing, right?

We have an ordinary form of the mass, and then we have approved rites, depending for the church in the east, for different rites that have been, again, for more than a thousand years, having their, or hundreds of years, having their own rites.

But they're approved by, let's say, the Vatican, et cetera, et cetera.

So, here in Dallas, or in Mexico City, or in a town, in wherever, we follow the exact same rubric of the liturgy, right?

The exact same rubric, the same parts of the Bible are read every day, the same parts, like, all that stuff.

The only thing that changes is the homily section, right?

With that in mind, there's not, there's usually, it's not like, okay, the Pope said one thing, and now every bishop gets it as if it was a rule.

Or now the government, the central government, the federation, the federal government, now gave us this, and now we have to, let's say, make it.

Make it a reality in our own local context.

Sadly, in some senses, it doesn't work like that, right?

Why?

Because every local reality has its own different ways of doing things, and the church is very respectful of that.

There's a lot of free will going on, let's say, a lot of liberty in how each bishop executes their authority, in how they should do.

Of course, we have a law, a code of canon law, that has different things on how to, but they're very level here, not on the day-to-day, right?

So when the Pope talks about, let's say, the judicial mission, and about things like that, then the bishops need to see how that is landed into their own reality, right?

And that can happen in a year, in some cases, and that can happen in a hundred years in some others, right?

Like, sadly, like, so let's say the Pope promotes the judicial mission, doesn't mean that's going to be now in every diocese all over the world.

That's why we need to work then and convince the bishops, and that's one of the things that we're trying to do.

As you said, like, yes, we that try to do, let's say, evangelization online or catechesis or whatever we're doing online, we know time is often essence, right?

And we know we want to run.

And sadly, the institutional church is very slow.

Time is not a thing for them.

And there's so many jokes about that.

The thing is, yes, there's no pressure in anything.

And 2,000 years, and still this thing continues, despite our best efforts, sometimes it seems.

So everything, like, everyone takes their time.

But we're seeing a lot of things changing, let's say, of bishops being more open

and trying to see what incorporating a digital mission into their diocese means.

Diocese, what that means all over the world.

And sadly, us that are here, that's even easier sometimes the rest of the world than in the U.S.

The rest of the world, we're not used to having budgets and to having a lot of things, right?

And so it's easier here, budgets, planning.

And, oh, we already have the 10-year plan.

Oh, we already have the budget for the next five years.

Like, Latin America, Asia, Africa.

There's no budgets.

We don't have money.

Bishop has an intuition that this is from the Holy Spirit, that this is a way of responding

to today's, let's say, today's issues, that we need to be out there online, that we need

to be with digital missionaries, that they need to be recognized, that they need to be

accompanied, that they need to be formed, and they need to be incorporated somehow in the

life of the church.

And that has been different ways.

And I can talk a lot of different ways of how we're doing it all over the world.

Sometimes it's a digital office.

Sometimes it's within the evangelization.

Sometimes it's within communication.

It starts with the simplest of things, right?

So there's a lot of ways.

There's this myth about, okay, the Pope says something, and now the whole structure gets it.

And now you have an office, and now it's done exactly that same way.

That doesn't happen.

Sadly, in some cases like this, right?

So, but at the end, the bishop is the one that decides to incorporate this, or so many

other things into the life of the diocese, right?

You know, I've always felt that the missional mindset, the missionary is going to be far more

embracing, and we found this to be true, that they're going to be far more embracing of new

technologies and new ways, because they're not, the missionary is not held to the baggage

of ecclesiology, of the hundreds, of the thousands of years, like, you know, they just, they

don't, they can be far more adept to it.

And anything, there's a pastor, oh my gosh, I just blanked on his name, Craig Rochelle,

he says, he's very missional mindset, and he says, everything short is sin, you know, for

the kingdom.

Like, you know, it doesn't matter, let's just, let's just do it.

And, and it's interesting that church, Life.Church is very evangelical and very digital friendly.

But let me, let me ask, because, because one of the things, and I'm curious, I don't think

I asked you this before.

One of the things that, that really kind of stretches the limits, uh, here in the U.S.

is the idea of a church existing entirely in digital space, like without a footprint, without

a digital, without a physical footprint, 100% digital.

Uh, have you bumped into a, a Catholic church existing entirely in digital, entirely in the

internet?

Um, like how, how do though, cause, cause you're like these, these cathedrals, they're,

they're, they're sacred grounds and you've got iconography all over with the stained glass

and, and, and like, you know, my, it's, it's a very physical, it feels, um, uh, process

of, of what you go through during, on, on Sundays.

I gotta imagine that doesn't translate well digitally or, or, or does it like, what, what

does that conversation look like for you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that's one of the, let's say fears and also one of the things that we have been

discovering and what you're saying has different levels, right?

Canonically, let's say the jurisdiction of how these would happen, they could work, but

also we are like, first of all, of course, we all know, or Christians, we, we all believe

Christ like became incarnate, right?

He is not an avatar, right?

He's not a virtual whatever.

No.

He became flesh.

No.

So that's the thing.

And, and, and for us Catholics in the sacraments are essential to being Catholic.

No.

So, so when I say the sacraments, I'm talking about, of course, we have seven sacraments,

right?

But let's say the Eucharist, right?

And the confession, for instance, the reconciliation, but the Eucharist for us, the liturgy of mass,

right?

And that, yes, there are special permits and special circumstances.

Of course, we had one five years ago that lasted for a while, right?

A couple of years.

Yeah.

It seems like a couple of years, but it's now five years, Jeff.

We, we were allowed, let's say, to, to, to see mass, but we participate in the mass.

We, we don't see it, right?

And, and we're not there.

The least important thing, if one would say that we go there is for the sermon, that's not

what we go through.

We, we, we believe what happens there is precisely the, the, the sacrifice, the sacrifice, right?

And the Holy Friday and everything that happens there all the way to, to, to Easter Sunday.

And, and that's what we're not just remembering, but we, we do believe that the, the, the host

or the, the, the bread is the, the, the flesh and the wine is the, the, the blood of Christ.

So for us, that can't be, that can't be online, right?

There's no way we can have online.

And same with the reconciliation sacrament confession, right?

That can't be unassumed.

That's not yet allowed.

Maybe sometime, right?

So, so what we do, for instance, when, when we talk about online communities, there's a

lot of online communities that gather a lot that gather and they pray either Catholic stuff,

let's say prayers, like the rosary, some that happen, like some happen like 4:00 AM in Brazil,

literally millions connect at the same time.

And they're all praying the rosary or they're praying different things or charismatics do different things.

Like each has, we, we have a lot of variety.

Let's say of how we Catholics pray depending on spirituality and churisums, et cetera, et cetera.

And, and there's a lot of prayer services, let's say online.

But at the end, and, and there's a lot of also online that happen in formation, right?

Because if we go a bit back or talk about different topics, so I can come back to this question, Jeff, we, we do several things online.

It's very cool to think evangelization, but, or online evangelization or mission.

But for us Catholics, there's different things.

And there's very distinct charisms of what, of who does it.

So one is really, yes, evangelization.

The first, first, first announcement, what we call the first announcement.

That's the focus on people who are not practicing at all, who doesn't have, don't have a Christian faith, who are not baptized, who might not know nothing, anything about Christ, right?

There's other things that are like collapsed Catholics or Christians, right?

And we, and we, and we try to, to be where they are and accompany, get to where they are and accompany, accompany them towards, let's say that the truth, no, and Christ's mercy.

There's, there's catechesis being done, formation being done there.

There's entertainment, different ways of entertainment.

There's, there's a lot of like pastoral accompaniment that's being done already.

That's very good with already practicing Catholics that are already trying to keep their faith.

There's different charisms, right?

So, so when, when we talk about like a lot of these things, most of what I just said can happen online.

But even the first thing that I said, the first announcement, you know, preaching the kerygma, trying to, to reach people there and showing them there's a guy that loved us and, and that died for us.

And then walking with them all the way to realizing that the church is, let's say what, what, what, what, what he invited us and how they can be, live a, live a, a good life in every sense.

Then we're there online, not to keep people there.

So yes, we have, we have these prayer services.

We can have all the things that I say, information, et cetera.

But for us, it's essential that we bridge from the online to that in-person world, the sacramental.

That's essential.

So when you say a church online church or a digital or virtual church, we can't have that in the Catholic church.

We can have prayer groups.

We can have the discussion groups.

We can have pastoral accompaniment.

We can have different things, right?

And we can stream live the mass.

And if you're too old or too sick or in a pandemic or whatever, yes, we believe there's a, we can have a, a spiritual communion.

If different things, if we follow different things.

Right.

But, but at the end, we believe in Christian community, in-person Christian community.

We believe in the sacraments are in person.

And we live, we believe the sacrifice is happens in every mass.

And we long for that.

And that's the fullness of what we believe.

Like that's the, the, the, the Eucharist is the, the center of what we believe in.

So everything that we do online has to be, so people stop scrolling and stop spending hours and hours here.

Right.

And they go into this life, the sacramental life, which for us happens online, in-person, right?

It can happen a hundred percent online.

So, so will we have a parish, an online parish?

No, we have parishes that do a lot of things online to be where people are at, to form them, to accompany them our day to day.

But even on the first, the first announcement.

Yeah.

It's not like a CTA call to action.

Come to mass Sunday.

Sometimes it's a, it's a journey that lasts years or a lot of steps, right?

Sometimes it's very easy because people are already ready, but we want to invite them to a sacramental life.

That's very important for us Catholic.

It's interesting.

I, I don't know if I answered your question.

No, no.

I, I, I think it's good.

What is, what are some of the challenges?

I mean, cause essentially you're using digital to drive people to physical.

What are some of the challenges that people, that churches, that, that priests, that leadership would have with that mindset?

Are they, are they not comfortable being on digital at all?

Like you're not, you're not replacing the church by trying to, like, it's a very conservative take.

You know, I, I was half expecting you to say, oh yeah, we're wanting, you know, virtual, uh, you know, whatever, but that's not what you're, that's not what you're doing.

You're, you're, it's, it's a very complimentary approach, which is very conservative.

Um, so what's, what's the major headache in this space or, or like what, what's the obstacle you're facing?

Um, well, there, there's several, uh, and we can speak ours and yeah, we like for us traditions with tea, like, uh, uh, opera caps or how do you say cap, uh, tea tradition.

Capitalized.

Yeah.

Capitalized.

Sorry.

My Spanish kicks in.

Uh, that's very important.

Right.

And yes, we, we, that sense.

Yes.

We won't change.

We won't change some things.

We, there have been important for 2002 millennia and they will continue being.

So, so yes, for us, we won't change our theology because of virtual.

We know a lot of things are changing in the world, but maybe to, to draw up like a, an image

of how we're seeing it, uh, and then go, go back to all the issues that we could talk hours

and maybe need some tequila.

But, uh, what, what, what the church has realized with Catholic church has realized is that internet

is a culture.

Before we, we, we, we, we, we saw it as a, as we saw the Paris bulletin, or I don't know how

you call it the church bulletin, or like communication that's very one-sided.

There's like, there's a communicant and you have a receiver and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And well, we hope someone will engage or understand or listening, whatever.

And, and we have been, I don't know if there's sociologists who are listening to this.

Uh, you said Josh might not be listening, but for instance, one of the, one of the things

that we argue is that the elements like the internet has the elements of a culture.

It has its own language, its own costumes, doing things.

It's all own like continents and we could call them platforms or whatever.

Like it has a lot of the different elements of a culture, right?

So, so the, the thing with the, with the Catholic church that we have been realizing these

last several years, mostly with Pope Francis, and I'm sure we will continue with Pope Leo,

is that evangelization happens where people are at.

And before it was okay.

We found out about the new culture.

We sent missionaries there.

We didn't know if they were going to be killed, beaten, or if the culture was going to be so attractive.

We don't know so many stories.

Of course, there exists a lot of missionaries that went there.

And well, pagan culture became so attractive that they stayed there, became whatever, some, something else.

No.

But we have never, ever been afraid of going to a new culture, finding the seeds of the verb, as Vatican says.

No.

And it's the same mission. Matthew 28, it's the same mission, right? Go on proclaim every nation and make the same God's love to every nation. It's the same mission, right? But we have done it to different cultures. And when missionaries, the famous missionaries or any missionary, they didn't get there. For instance, so many missionaries that we have. For instance, very famous one that Francis Xavier.

When he went to India or Japan or China, he didn't start preaching in Spanish. He didn't get like his Bible and repent and whatever. No, he got there. He had to learn the language. He had to see how they lived, see the customs, how they identify that, say the things that were in line with what persons like we believe, we think of good and bad, et cetera, et cetera.

And then mostly by his witness initially, by their witness, by the missionaries' witness, right? It's how people saw God in them, right? They saw there was something different. And yes, learn the language, the customs, and by their witness. And then, yes, start preaching and, well, we have baptisms, et cetera, et cetera.

But so the Catholic Church is seeing the internet as a new culture. So we're seeing it as the new missionary frontier.

And as we have done for 20 centuries, not being afraid of going there, we are now going there to bring people to Christ and to walk with them.

And so with that in mind, that that is not, of course, it's not the traditional sense of like in-person, physical space, right?

And one could argue that's why in some senses it can't be a whole new culture, although we know it's a culture and we can live it.

And the thing is, then how can we precisely have a church, let's say, so many cool things that are happening online, evangelization, podcast.

We do a lot of podcasts. People get attracted. Let's say they, okay, finally, after listening years and finding a way, their journey and introspection and all that, I'm ready to go to church.

Then they go to a Catholic Church and then they have an old priest or a very, let's say, closed priest, you know, so many senses that there's no people who welcome them or they see how they're dressed and how their tattoos or whatever, or how they don't know anything and maybe judging.

And if you have all that stuff, which, of course, happens a lot, of course, we're losing it.

So the thing is, we have the call right now, and mostly these last couple of years with the sin of synodality, is having in mind how our reality is being transformed.

And there's a lot of research about this, how our brain is being transformed, even when we're not in our devices, right?

But our language, our way of seeing things, of approaching things, of thinking about things because of the digital world.

We know we need to change a lot of the things that we do in our parishes, in our churches, right?

And how to be more welcoming and how to be more attractive.

Yes, we have digital missionaries or Catholic influencers who are priests or who are nuns or monks or whatever.

Okay, cool.

But that's a minuscule amount of people, right?

Most are priests that might be very old and doesn't even have, well, maybe WhatsApp or Facebook, right?

But doesn't know anything about that.

So we have a lot of challenges there.

That's why they need to rely on lay people, which has been a change that Pope Francis has been, well, since Vatican Council No. 2, right?

Second Vatican Council, at the end of 62, well, 62 it ended, trying to have lay people make the church our own.

It's not the bishop's church.

It's not the priests and they just do and say and we just go and participate from this side.

No, we have to make it our own.

And online, there's a lot of things that we need to help the church, that we need to help our leaders be part of and help them.

And, well, there's a lot of issues, of course, with bishops.

Some have had very bad experiences because, of course, we have Catholic YouTubers who are very critical of the Pope or, well, Pope Francis,

of bishops who have promoted this unity or fake news and towards their own bishop, et cetera, et cetera.

And there's a lot of issues that we could talk about that we are finding out how to, let's say, work around them or work within them.

And without being afraid, right?

This is happening.

That's why also Pope Leo and, well, even Francis was very bold with AI.

We need to be in the middle of the conversation where things are happening.

So it's better learning by trying, which was the thing that Pope Francis invited us to do, that he told so many times,

he told us so many times how he preferred a church that is outside, that is trying new things, that it brews, that has dirt on our hands, right, on our nails, right?

Because we're trying different things that the church is just inside, people that are just inside our churches and getting sick because we're just there, stale.

Right.

Well, so we're invited to change, to try different approaches and things.

Yes.

So, I mean, speaking of that, I was curious about innovation overall within the Catholic Church.

What is, I mean, you got metaverse, you got virtual reality, augmented, like we're at the precipice of incredible technological leaps and bounds here in the next decade.

What does innovation look like within the Catholic Church?

Precisely with Josh, I had a conversation last time that he, I think it was last time he was here in Dallas or, or I don't know if it was Jesu, but he was, he was saying, you know, he's Lutheran, right?

He's not Catholic and well, but he's all over, all over there.

Yeah.

He's all over the map.

Christian, yeah.

And just tell me how he has been hearing for years, how innovation is like a password in a lot of Christian, like the nominations, events, a lot of things and hackathons and events and stuff.

And he was like, I don't hear that word at all on Catholic and, and, and, and yeah, we just don't use that word like that a lot.

Right.

And first of all, like in liturgy and doctrine, yes, we, like, we want to innovate.

We're pretty conservative.

If you want to use that word, like we want to stick to what we have thought for 20 centuries and what we have believed for 20 centuries and what we believe Christ taught us, et cetera, et cetera.

And our understanding of things.

So in some senses, one could say, yes, innovation is not our thing on the other hand, that the Catholic church has always adapted to the times and we have been at the forefront of a lot of things.

I mean, you see a big bang theory now that you see like all the Catholic thing, let's say scientists, et cetera, that have discovered and even led so many different things.

right, uh, the genome and, uh, et cetera, et cetera, now some, so many things on AI, like Catholics have always been on the forefront of experimentation, of innovation in that sense.

Right.

In that other sense, do we use the word innovation?

No.

Now in the sense, in a sense, that's what Pope Francis was, was asking us is Evangelii Gaudium, right.

Which was his, his, his apostolic exhortation that he repeated us so many times.

And now with the synod of synodality that we concluded last October, that we're in a three year phase now, we're, we're, we were invited by, by, by Rome, by the Vatican to experiment, implement these things.

We need to be a more listening church.

We know that we need to listen more, stop preaching, listen, listen, where people are at, see the daily experiences, the wounds, the cries of the earth of the people.

And then see how to better be with them and, and through God's love, uh, kill them.

And we need to find better ways of doing that because we have been so bad and so many bad things that we have been doing in so many ways.

And, and, and, and we know we need to change a lot of things.

So, yes, in some senses, no innovation at all, but in other senses, we know we need to be closer to people to promote encounter in cultures, to promote peace, to promote justice, so many different things.

That, that, that's why there's so many different charisms, religious orders, ecclesial movements, like groups of lay people, all within the Catholic church, all very different, but it's trying different new things with, within their own charism and calling.

And, and, and, and we have, we have been asked, uh, mostly by Pope Francis, but, but through our, our history.

And sometimes we, we become too traditional, too stale.

And, and, and, and then comes a saint that completely reforms the church and to show you, remember who you are, remember to be out there, to do this, et cetera, et cetera.

So, yeah, not in the same sense, uh, but even right now, uh, the Vatican is at the forefront.

And if you saw last week's Christian, uh, the, the, the, the letter on AI by the Christian leaders, they referenced the thing from the, from the Pope and the Vatican has, has been conversations, which are so insiders called the Minerva dialogue with, with Palo Alto and Silicon Valley people, et cetera, for, for a decade.

And, and a lot of things going on, innovation, talking with, with a lot of different people, but it's a very different take.

Like, I agree.

And somehow it appears innovation, some people within the, within the Catholic church, that word itself is like, eh, it doesn't sound right.

Is it, is it, do you feel like it's, and, and I'm, I'm not trying to get gotcha journalism.

So I'm trying to ask this question in, in, in, in a soft language, but is it, is it responding like just in time when it needs to?

Is, is it, is it, is it slow in, in responding, but it's, it's stable.

You know, it's interesting.

I made this, I made this illusion the other day illustration to like major league baseball where, you know, a lot of the same roles that Babe Ruth played at in the 1920s still exists today.

Like the game itself has not changed historically.

They've made minor adjustments here or there when they were need to, maybe under duress, but at the end of the day, it's still honoring what was, and it is still trying to be somewhat effective for, for the future.

No one could not say the same thing about major league baseball.

That's funny.

So like, is it, is it, um, innovation without being innovation?

Is it, is it, is it responding in, in season to do what, what it has to, like what, what, what fuels innovation for, for the Catholic church?

Yeah, I think it's in, it's in different things, uh, first of all, one of the, let's say parameters, it's not like we have our, our very clear don'ts or, or this is where innovation has no space.

For instance, very clearly the liturgy, right?

Like very clear.

Now we, we, we believe something, uh, since the beginning of, of, of, of the Catholic church, the fathers of the church, that something, we believe something, we believe the bread is this, the blood is this, we, we believe, uh, we believe those things.

So, so innovating there in the liturgy, you won't see that.

But, and whenever it's done by, let's say, rogue priests or whatever, it's frowned upon, right?

So, so in that sense, yeah, doctrine, what we believe in, yeah, we, we, we won't start changing things just because, because we think it's more, it's more cool right now, what, that we have believed are, are, are, are, are, are, what we believe in, right?

And, and even things immorals, uh, we take a while.

We have nuances, we have better understanding, science has, has, has helped us a lot, uh, in a lot of things to, let's say, adjust or even change our understanding, but of, because of science, not because of theological reasons, right?

Like, for instance, like the, you know, centuries ago, Galileo, Galilei, et cetera, et cetera, right?

Like, so, and, and we kept several, and the church then admits like, okay, yes, we thought the world was the center of the universe.

We now know it's not, so, so these, uh, earth-centric approach, well, uh, we adjusted, right?

And, and we're open to that sort of stuff, but because of science or reason, right?

Not because we are changing our theological truth or something.

Gotcha.

In terms of evangelization, in terms of formation, in terms of how to better help, let's say, the poor, the needy, let's say, the Beatitudes, right?

Make them reality, oof, the church has always been innovative, that's why we invented universities, universities, that's why hospitals, that's why so many things have happened, because we have always, always invented, let's say, innovated in those senses.

And, and sometimes, like, let's say, one could argue if one goes into the history of the church or just world history, like the dark ages, like the middle ages were so very bad in a lot of senses for innovation.

Mm-hmm.

For the church and of, of trying different things, and then we have this rich church that became too complacent or too, like, in bed with, uh, with, uh, world powers, with kings, with, et cetera, et cetera, and so many bad things that we know and we, we have asked for forgiveness and still trying to atone for a lot of those sins.

And we had some crazy, crazy saints that reminded us of things, like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Siena, right, that wrote, that wrote so many, when we had two popes, or we had one pope, but we didn't know which one was the real one, et cetera, et cetera.

And, and we, we, we, we, we had these people that sound crazy, that are reminding us of who we are, and that go out of their limbs, like this Francis, in times of the, uh, a very rich church, in which the, the bishops were really princesses in all, princesses in, in all the, in all the sense of the word, of the worldly sense of the word.

Prince of the church, he was, he was crazy and lived with nothing, but with, with a robe, right, and, and begging, and preaching, and building, and, and that's what changed, let's say, the, the world.

And then St. Bernard, when, when the monasteries, when monasteries were again, also deforming into bad things and, and being the worst.

So, so we became stale, and there's, there's always, there has always been people that remind us of who we are,

and that we have to be, and who we have to be, and how, how we need to be responding to Christ's call in today's time.

Sometimes that hierarchy has become, like, very, yes, slow in realizing these things, and that's when we have these other things happening.

Right now, with Francis, we, we had a lot of, let's say, of wake-up calls that he was inviting us to see outside of ourselves.

And, and, and, and, and that was very hard for a lot of people that one could say to conservatives, let's say to some conservatives in the Catholic Church, because he, he was, like, calling us out in a lot of senses, and inviting us to be out of ourselves, and to, to be, to listen more, and how can we listen more if we have the truth?

And, and, and, and, and, and we need those types of people to remind us of who we are.

But there's always a lot of people that behind the, behind, let's say, not, not in front of the screens, that in the shadows, in good sense, are, have always been innovating on ways to reach the poor, the needy, to evangelize those that don't need it.

And so many examples of people that, that are doing that, and who have been trying to, to, to do that in so many countries and places, even in the US, in cities, with, with the most, yeah, with, with people that need physical stuff, like normal stuff to eat and shelter, et cetera, but who also need love, and who also need spiritual advice, and who need, need someone to be there.

Right?

So what's a win?

What does, what does the Catholic Church look like in 2035, in 10 years?

I would say, because of the synodality, which was this gathering that took place for several years in Rome, had different phases, a universal phase, in which every diocese participated, and we listened to everyone.

That wanted to say, that wanted to say a thing about the church and how we're living, our calling as a church, et cetera, et cetera.

But also, but then we have, let's say, the, the, the, the last phase, which was the universal phase in Rome, that I was a part of, as you know, for the last two years, 23 and 24.

And, and it was bishops from all over, for instance, one of the things that Pope Francis changed was, he now had a, a percentage of non-bishops that were voting, that, that we not only had a voice, but also a vote.

And, and, and, and, and one of the things that we are invited by the, by the final document, which we all voted, and then he decided to make part of his ordinary magisterium, which now makes it, let's say something that, that Catholics can, can feed from, and use from.

And it's not just a, a thing that was said by a bunch of people, but has some authority, we have, we have some guidelines and, and dioceses, local realities, yes, bishops, but also religious superiors from religious orders, which means monks and nuns mostly.

Okay, right, they're invited to recognize the local digital missionaries, so people that are already there, recognize them, see them, right, have an encounter with them.

So that's happening already in so many different parts of the world, right, in which the bishop is getting to know the, the, the, let's say the local Catholic influencers, social missionaries, content creators, however you want to call them,

that are in the, in the region, that first encounter changes everything.

And of course, I have to talk a lot with the bishops, please don't preach, please don't tell them what they're doing wrong, ask, ask, like, ask them what they're calling, what's in their hearts, what, why they think, like, God is calling them to do this, and how they're doing it, and their struggles, and get to know each other, poof, the things that happen after that first encounter.

So we can have that, we, we, we're still planning and trying to do different things in the states.

But if we can have that, bishops that are really interested in getting to know digital missionaries that are, that live there in the region, even though, of course, their followers can be from everywhere, but our reality still is very, like, let's say, geographical in terms of jurisdiction, canonical jurisdiction.

So, so right now, because of course, that's a different thing that we won't talk here, that's more complicated.

Who will be in charge of them, who will be in charge of them, and there's different options that we might be exploring in the church, we're exploring, will take forever, like years to find out.

But if we, as Catholics, if bishops don't want to just outsource, let's say, evangelization, which is very essential, bishops are supposed to be teachers, well, shepherds, right?

If they're seeing digital missionaries as, as an extension, and also they take them part of their pastoral plan, of their evangelization plan.

So, in 10 years, let's say, if bishops, a majority of bishops are doing this, and then with them walking towards seeing, okay, how can we better be one, because that's what God called us all Christians, right?

To be one as he's one, right?

So, if we are that, and it's not like, okay, some digital missionaries here doing some cool content and attracting people to Christ and the church, and then they go to a church, and then it's the most boring or most welcoming church or most judgy church, then we have all these issues, no?

So, if we are incorporating them, and we start transforming a lot of things of how we are church, not of what we think, not of what we believe in, not of the way we celebrate the liberty, but how we are, how we do, how we act with people who think differently, who are very differently in every sense, or can be in every sense, but how we welcome them, like God the Father, open arms.

So, if we start doing that, the things that can happen, Jeff, in so many ways, will be a whole different church, and it's changing so rapidly in the places that the bishops are taking the first step in listening, not in preaching, not in telling them what they're doing wrong, and then, there's a lot of cool things that happen.

There's a lot of cool things that the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit does its thing, and the church's structure starts changing because of this mindset of being out there with them, listening, accompanying them, recognizing them, and seeing them as what they are, missionaries.

Yeah, often we talk about, you know, establishing trust digitally, and asking, you know, more questions than making statements, use more question marks than periods, and no exclamation marks, don't preach, listen, allow the Holy Spirit to use you by listening.

And so, it's interesting, I hear my language coming in a different context coming from you over the past hour.

This is beautiful.

Now, Jose, I didn't even, I didn't ask up at the top, like, what do you actually do?

Like, what's, what's your, what's your job?

Because it's, this is, that's, are you, you're not, like, paid by the Catholic Church, right?

You do something else in addition?

What, what's your actual nine to five?

Yeah, sadly, that's, that's not a thing.

When, even, like, this, you know, last, last year, I spent a month, and two years ago, another month in the Vatican, even, even there, no, I wasn't paid.

I, I convinced them to pay for my ticket and my lodging, but that was, but, but, well, no, well, several things.

Let's say the, the way that I sustain myself and my family, because I'm married and I have three kids, I, it's, it's by a sort of a digital marketing agency and content creation agency.

We work with Catholic organizations, including a couple of dioceses, and, and, and that agency is geared mostly at helping them connect with Latinos and attracting them to Christ, right?

As you might know, Latinos in the U.S. make up almost 50% of Catholics, right?

And the majority of Catholics under 25 are Latinos in the U.S.

But the church, sadly, the Catholic Church, sadly, does very little things.

So, try to convince them that Latinos are worth it, that there's a lot of ways to, to attract them to Christ, so they're not leaving to the nuns, because they're not, a lot of people think, oh, they're, Latinos are leaving to, to other Christian denominations, whatever.

Well, cool, if so, but that's not happening.

They're leaving to the nuns, they're not, they stop practicing the faith, and that's because we are not welcoming them, and that starts with, we're not seeing them by who they are, we're not creating content for them, we're not doing a lot of cool things.

So, we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, we're not doing a lot of cool things, so we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things.

I get, let's say, I sustain my family, myself, we have very few clients, so we survive, but then, on the other hand, where my heart really is, is on the non-profit part, finally, after years and years, last year, we incorporated, legally, we now have a non-profit, in which we have three different initiatives.

One is the evangelization lab, in which we do experiments, to see what works precisely, to bring people from the online to the in-person, and that's a very cool thing, that's going to be out in the public very soon, because we have been doing it behind the mics, behind the cameras, so there's a lot of really cool things, multidisciplinary approaches, a lot of really cool things there, and then, we'd love to hear your feedback, Jeff, and your thoughts,

I'd love to hear your thoughts, and different things, and maybe even experiment with you guys a bit.

Oh, yeah, yeah, once you go public with some of the findings of the lab, I'd love to double back with you, and learn what you're learning, and dig more into that.

And start some interventions and experiments, also, right?

Oh, totally, definitely, love it.

So, hey, this has been a great conversation, a great time.

Jose, thanks for hanging out with us, and so, looking forward to working more closely with you as we're going down this road, but as we're wrapping up here, Jose, any closing thoughts?

Well, thank you, Jeff, for everything I've told you, and, well, not in person yet, in Zoom and in WhatsApp, what you're doing.

Like, we need what you're doing, so I'm very grateful when I discovered the Truth Digital, I was very excited.

I am very excited about what you're doing with the cohorts, and, well, with the podcast, and with the community, and with everything.

I don't participate as often there in the very bad with WhatsApp, et cetera, et cetera, but I'm a fan of what you're doing.

I pray for you daily, and, well, I hope a lot of the people that are listening that are not Catholics understand that we're trying the same thing, and that we are trying to work together as well.

And I love your approach, and seeing a lot of non-Catholics, like Christian non-Catholics, that are trying to see us and also work with us in the same way.

And, well, we're called to be one, right?

So, let's try to do it.

The Church Digital, we've always been friends on mission, and there's a lot more, Jose.

It's interesting, I've even been getting WhatsApp notifications from friends that are watching the stream live.

There's a lot more that unites us than divides us, and so, man, it's great to have you on the stream here, and looking forward to working with you forward, working with you more, working with you more in the weeks and months to come.

I have no idea why I said forward, moving forward, maybe.

Okay, I don't know.

I am somewhat medicated, and so I'm looking forward to ending this stream, probably going and taking a nap.

But, hey, Jose, it's been a great conversation, and even though I've been on drugs through this conversation, oh, no, I'm kidding.

Actually, I'm not kidding.

But it has been great to hang out with you, Jose.

Thanks for spending Tuesday with us.

And for Jose, this is Jeff with The Church Digital.

Thanks for hanging out with us, and we'll see you all soon.

You all have a good one.

Thank you.