EP363: Jeff & Stacy Celebrate the CTRL+ALT+Recover Summit

all right hey everybody welcome to the church digital podcast uh i you know oh my gosh i don't

even know what i can never keep track of is this episode 373 363 999 i literally cannot remember

what number i am except what the calendar tells me 362 this is episode 362 uh we're coming up on

a full year of podcast episodes right around the corner god bless you if you could listen to me one

hour a day for a full year i don't know that you would be any smarter but that may be a conversation

for a different day all right hey listen today this episode we are celebrating control alt recover uh

our second uh digital missionary summit that we did here in the fall we're excited about what's

happening we've got europe coming up next week but right here today i want to bring on uh stacy hey

stacy how are you doing great thank you thank you stacy is uh is our uh care director of care a

chaplain uh for the for the church digital and and really just played a crucial role in putting

together the uh control alt recover our our digital christ-centered recovery conference uh that we

hosted uh yesterday uh and so we've we've got uh we've got conrad cooper session they'll be coming up

here in a little bit but want to take a minute or two maybe celebrate some some wins get some initial

opinions on the conference and thoughts and uh recollections from from yesterday and so stacy

first off welcome back to the show thank you so much great to be here oh i always love our

conversations good totally 100 and if you're watching currently live in the audience uh we're

gonna ignore you because we are doing this pre-recorded 100 psych it's on you no no in all seriousness i've

never done i don't like doing this but scheduling's just didn't it did not work anywhere and i really

wanted stacy to be a part of this and so i literally rolled out of bed uh threw on a shirt and was like

okay let's actually do the recording uh which considering um east coast and and stacy's you

know oh dark 30 where she's at thank you stacy for for coming on this show and being with us

so good to do this so stacy yeah tell us like initial uh thoughts opinions like what'd you think of

the conference yesterday what went well i would see there was i think uh mind's blown you know some

people are saying how much that it impacted them um sepi's story of transformation um and i think

what really was compelling was her honesty and and transparency and um which for those of us who are

ministering anywhere in a digital space or anywhere else is caught hard it's a challenge to be that

transparent and honest i mean who can you talk to you're not going to talk to the people you serve

i mean you want to be honest but not with the deep hard traumatic things that have happened in your life

so um but we do need that and so that's what i'm really excited about us tcd providing that

space care a culture of uh of recovery uh and so yeah that that was a big big i think moment for

a number of people like in the chat were saying yeah like we need honesty we need this we need this

transparency sepi's story was um it was it was funny we weren't planning on opening the conference with

with that story we had some technical issues the internet broke on us uh literal internet broke on

us in that situation um i just had to to adapt and so we we moved sepi's story early and uh just an

incredible story of um of of brokenness and then you know it's it's it's maybe sounds like cliche but

like the restoration after the brokenness and then gal god is is using you and using her and amplified her

through that through that restoration like the the brokenness was was not the end of the journey the

brokenness was really the beginning of of her journey and how god uh rebuilt her restored her and then

amplified her her ministry after the fact amplified's a good word amplified's a good word you know she

shared with me how she's just seeing in her obedience to the lord that she's she knows she needs to share

her story she didn't know what that was going to look like but here she is on a global scale

you know she was i think she mentioned she was working or yeah with focus on the family in africa

and then it went there her story was shared there and then um and then here we are on tcd global you know

and i was getting feedback from some people from tcd that are in southern california and just even at

the very end i got a message of uh at the end of sepi's testimony someone sent me a message to say how

compelling it was and she's so thankful that she attended you know at least just to hear

sepi's story you know that really set a tone though right it it sets it set a tone though it was not

planned for her to go first but that set a tone for the rest of the conference to say no this is what

we're this is this is not just another story you know this is part of this is gonna be part of our

story for tcd story of our culture and what we're going to nurture um within tcd yeah brokenness

vulnerability transparency um you know first off i've i've biblically and i've actually have done some

look into this god never breaks things and and rebuilds it exactly the same way like in in biblically

we never see that story we see where things are broken and then they're rebuilt in in a different

way to be utilized better by god and so the uh to be broken in some of these situations like like

sepi and sepi's story and and and you know even in in my restoration story of of and being being

broken and being remolded being reshaped being uh refiners fire burning out the the impurities

uh like these things are are are crucial to be used by god in in physical space yes but even even

even digitally and oh by the way being uh vulnerable in in digital environment makes uh makes you so much

more endearing as digital missionary yeah makes you yeah so much more open uh which allows for

heartfelt conversations i understand the the the pain that that you're feeling i understand this because i've

i've struggled with it too like there's there's such an a connection point relationally to be able to

engage with people as digital missionaries um understanding this and being able to uh to deal with that

have you experienced anything like that or know of people who have oh yeah absolutely i i um gosh my

first 12 steps experience i think was 2009 maybe maybe 2011 that that time and i didn't know i didn't know

what it was about it's just that someone at the church um said oh we have we have a recovery ministry

here and what was really like a really um powerful moment for me was that the pastor senior pastor lead

pastor would join us but he wouldn't join us for the group you know because he's but he'd join us for

the meal that we'd have before our group and he'd talk about cr and um that the you know with cr celebrate

recovery but the the uh for him though at that time there wasn't a 12 steps community for leaders senior

leaders and so um but the fact that he wanted to be so connected with us even though he couldn't join us

that that said something like i took took note of that i observed that and i thought

hmm when a leader senior leader wants to be transparent and open and honest um

that that was yeah that was a big observation for me and said okay i think i need to

check this out you know and and then um yes and i my eyes were so open i got even

the going through the 12 steps the first time around that was just scratching the surface right and um

i discovered my my identity was found in how much i served and how much i needed to or or kind of um

making like a tally you know of opportunities of when i served so i never said no i did not know

the word no i said yes to whatever anyone said hey sure okay why not

yeah i yeah i yeah and that time was single and i have kids you know i didn't don't have kids so

i um i believed that it's just distorted thinking that because i'm i don't have those responsibilities

that um then i i i have to say yes it was um you know it's uh putting my my need to serve an affirmation

um in the place of god himself like that that was my affection right my affection was

it was not just saying yes but people happy that i said yes yeah man replacing god itself we're going

in some heady topics really really quickly or we're cutting yeah well you know and and that's that was

the beginning of my journey where i said that those are two different things serving and then my

affection for jesus two different things and um it's out of overflow right we serve but also i didn't know

the work you know i didn't know about being responsible for uh my time my energy being a good steward

of my body all those things i just didn't understand until i started the recovery journey

um yeah it it's i i'd say i worshiped um i worshiped the act of service

and um you know there's all the underlying issues you know of why that is why that happened why that was

such a um just a really deep part of me that i thought i was supposed to be good i believed i believe the

church culture was about just serving and it's it's not it's abide in me like jesus says abide in me

then you'll bear much fruit but i was just the appearance perception of bearing fruit is what i

was doing that's that's interesting yeah there was a it was one of the best lines from the conference

um yesterday for me uh was conrad cooper we're going to show his section here in in a little bit but

when he said um you know the the the church you know itself has has a recovery problem it's it's not

individuals it's it's the the you know the big c church may be here in in 2025 and and actually it

was funny i i actually saw you know he he talked about how six of seven pastors had um had uh either

a current issue with pornography or a previous issue of pornography and it was funny like you know

that's 83 of pastors if my math is correct and and in my lifetime a guy that spent 30 plus years

working closely with pastors i i can barely think of five pastors in my life who have even

had a conversation or i've heard say the word pornography like yeah it is literally that the

the church is best kept secret unfortunately in in this situation and it was actually it was in my life

i saw this yesterday um conrad conrad was on stage and i was was off stage and i got a text from a

a couple pastors i'm working with currently and uh and one of them texted uh hey you know at a physical

church pastor that physical church here in my oh yeah and a couple of them texted uh you just checking

in how the conference is going and in a kind of quipped back via text oh just some south african

guy on stage right now talking about porn addiction and um literally one of the pastors is like wow you

don't hear that every day and it's just because it's it's it's like it's it's been the uh you're not

allowed to talk about it you're not not allowed to uh to to recognize that and it's a church culture

like i i shared yesterday in my own life where um you know early on in in my ministry career i i was i was

told hey if if you're if you're struggling with addictive behaviors uh quit your job and leave

the church because we don't want you to mess up what god is doing here and and while that

you know that's an unfortunate reality that that many uh pastors are are are under uh that's a many

it's a really a struggle of of where the church is and you know maybe the church does need to

have a session of recovery a season to recover from some some of these these bad ideologies it

was there as a barna stat that just came out like 65 75 percent of pastors think about quitting every

year well with uh the pressure and the onus of perfection and and not actually allowed to be

human and not having anyone around them that they can trust to have hard conversations like this

is there any wonder they they're thinking about quitting at such a high level every year

uh and so yeah it's it's just it's amazing to me um how much uh the the church has kind of painted

itself into a corner not ready to embrace some of these these realities of today and heaven forbid that we

actually rest as ministers that we actually honor sabbath yeah but i mean we're not good at that

yeah i actually i had a i know it's it's true a good friend of mine a pastor at a church um he had

earned a sabbatical which was i think in his context six to eight weeks off and he worked an additional

three years before he took that sabbatical time he because according to him there was never a good

time to take it honest to god true story right hand up uh he he had not told his wife he had earned the

sabbatical had not communicated like that was that was an issue uh that he had earned earned the sabbatical

and his wife had no idea uh and and it was it went when when crap came out it was it was a it was a

difficult season but i mean that's that's just somewhat that's this that's that's like the the

the the wall over the the what's the saying there it's it's like the you're being blinded to it hey

you know i'm doing everything i can for for god i'm working for the the the penultimate reason

everything for the kingdom everything short of sin like we we've even said that here here on the stream

you know let's go um you know it's better to burn out than rust out you know some some of that

ideology uh but what happens as as a result of that is uh you know you you experience it we heard about

this from laura howe yesterday in the conference a lot of that uh compassion fatigue uh burnout uh

exhaustion um you know shoot i had a conference yesterday and and i'm i'm exhausted and and i've got

bronchitis i'm coughing up phlegm and and and like my body just took a toll on on one day sorry for that

that was gross but to be able to to do this over like years and years and just being beat down um and

yes jesus is there and and and we have that that connection but sometimes a physical connection or we need

people around us to speak the truth of jesus in our lives but we don't we don't trust the people around

us enough to be vulnerable to to share with them what's really going on in our lives yeah when we

talk about nurturing that culture you know it does it starts from the top it starts with us as ministers

and then and i i think that's and it's not about pointing the finger at the church right i growing

growing up that's that's what it was you know i'm thinking about 80s the 80s and 90s how we're because

we're it it's output it's it's getting things out there it's uh but it's not but we keep things hidden

hidden but pain the pain the sorrow uh the trauma we've experienced you know um you know where we have

not nurtured that environment to the transparency and care and talk through things and um hey let's let

let's have a care groups but hey if you need to seek out a therapist counselor you know by all means

let's let's let's get you let's get help when when i put together the conference and when we put together

the conference the speakers like it for me it was i thought we would be talking more about creating a

culture of recovery and how to address it at an organizational level what and even like some of

the questions of the people that were talking and coming in it was it was not um it really wasn't as

much culture as much as it was individuals like that was kind of that was a huh i didn't anticipate that

where it was it was not uh like how to get your organization and saying recovery it's hey i'm struggling with this

one of the questions yesterday was at what point is it an addiction uh versus just a um a a regular

sin or or like just a mistake like at what point how many times do you have to sin to have the sin

become an addiction as opposed to you know not and i was like does it was does it matter like you know

even if it's once you're addicted to something like acknowledge that and embrace like say it and and

allow god to work through the acknowledgement of it stop trying to justify i'm not as bad as i think i

am um it's it's really not that bad it's just like i'm i'm trying to think like it's so it's just in

this moment you know david's up up on the on the roof with basheba oh i can look i can look once i just

like it needs to be a really long look i can't look oh i looked a second time okay all right no a

third time that's where it's oh i should reach out no no no no no you know it's it's like you got a

problem and it's okay to have a problem by admitting you have the problem you work through the problem

sorry right yeah no that's how it's no but it was but that's what it is it's like well you got to ask

if you have to ask you know it's like you know you know and it's okay that's the thing i wanted to say

to that person like good for you though i mean like you know here you are asking the question at least

that you know while the while here some of us are just holding it inside and we'll hold it for years

till the day we die you know so or or it's it implodes right it implodes yeah it's for those that

that have the courage to rebuild without crashing like you know there was a graphic we shared maybe it's

time to reboot without the crash like if you cannot have your if you can correct the issue without

self-destructing that's that's a that's a that's a great place to be have the courage to acknowledge

some of these things in your life bring the people around you you know i lived in fear of i i didn't

want the people around me to know this um well when the crash came the people around me found out and

much better it's much better to deal with it in in like hey i have the courage i i have the strength

to manage this on my own through god uh we're gonna tackle this this together rather than saying and my

life is now over i i am i am totally at rock bottom here so so have the have the strength uh to do some

of that at least that would be my my prayer and encouragement for you but what all this told us at

the individual level is that tcd the path that we're on for care uh for recovery um for you know even

you know we've been talking about the word thriving like creating a thriving uh digital missionary and

helping provide training and coaching for that and in peer-to-peer support and in beyond like we're on

the right path as as we're trying to to help people um take these next steps in in once again i said

earlier yesterday in in the conference if we're going to shine the light in the digital darkness

we've got to be aware that that light's going to be shining on us and to be vulnerable and transparent

to address where we are so that we can help others that are in a similar position uh that is that's a

place that that are the church digital missionaries that once connected with us they need to they need

to see they need to represent they need to to know and so that would be my challenge for you

out there watching this is is to maybe listen to some as we're transitioning over comrade cooper in

a second he's doing his keynote talk um as we're recognizing some of the issues and struggles right

now and with the big uh you know big c church the u.s church wherever comrade cooper's in south africa

so he's not even talking about the u.s church he's just talking about the church as we're talking about

the church in general today and some of the stigmas that that they're wrestling with um you know maybe

there's there's a a challenge for you at the individual level to to start to recognize who

can you influence uh for the kingdom and are you in a position where you can influence them or do you

need to address some of the issues that you have in in your life in such a way know that we the church

digital we we care for you we want to be there for you we are rolling out a recovery program where

our leadership's going through it right now in in 25 we're going to start some betas in 26 stacy's uh

and and her team are championing that the church.digital recovery you can check out that webpage the church.digital

slash recovery uh and that that some more information is is there on that you know stacy i know we got to

cut this session short but as as we're wrapping up here on your side any closing thoughts yeah the

invitation the invitation is and i totally wholeheartedly believe this is from this is jesus jesus's invitation to

you is to consider to consider um you know the investment of time and effort doing doing the inner

work in recovery um so that we bear much fruit this is part of to me abiding abiding in him um that we

will always put him first our affection to him solely is first one and only not the fruit and so please

consider the this invitation to join us beautiful so with that i'm going to hand it over to conrad cooper

from the conference yesterday uh conrad cooper is uh founder and executive director of project exodus one of

the organizations that we're partnering very closely with and so we're going to open up with a three

minute video on project exodus and then that'll transition into uh conrad cooper's talk uh titled

uh recovery rewired so let me go hand it over to uh to the video and thanks y'all see you next time

addiction and mental health challenges don't stop at destroying individual lives

the effect spreads to families and whole communities and yet most people suffer in silence

nearly two-thirds of youth and young adults report watching pornography on a weekly basis

over the past decade global drug usage has surged by 23 percent and yet 90 of those who need help never

receive it despite this grim reality change is possible recovery is possible but it requires support

no one should do it alone solution can be found in the church with its reach infrastructure and heart

the church is uniquely positioned to make a profound and lasting difference as the body of christ we're

called to take action we've been commissioned to bring hope to the hopeless healing to the broken and

freedom to the captives but many churches and organizations can feel overwhelmed and ill-equipped

unsure where to start or how to sustain recovery efforts until now

built on the foundation of god's word project exodus is a non-profit recovery ministry empowering your

church with effective and innovative recovery strategies our recovery tools are biblically based and life-giving

bringing real and lasting change through our web platform bridge and our online academy

you'll gain access to all the resources training and support needed to lead life-saving recovery groups

and programs whether addressing addiction and supporter recovery mental health recovery or pornography

recovery our solutions are accessible scalable and sustainable designed to meet people where they are and

guide them forward if you have the heart to help our step-by-step process will empower you previous

experience is not required simply sign up get certified and launch your group this isn't just theory decades of

experience inform our evidence-based strategies empowering churches to build cultures of recovery that transform homes

their communities and their communities and their communities and communities you see the need is urgent and the solution

starts with you with the right tools and support you can take action and make a difference together we can grow

and control a culture of recovery one person one church and one community at a time

so

hi guys a good day all from south africa a good evening to you um from our perspective here

it's now sitting at 18 30 pm i'm speaking from a small town down in the south coast i'm called george and

our team is also based in durban and around the country as well as in some places internationally but

uh first i just want to give you greetings from south africa um no it's not as bad as it's made out to

be in the states um and absolutely amazing and and beautiful countryside and we are determined to embrace

change uh and to do the things that need to be done uh to seize the kingdom so yeah just a shout out to

to to to jeff um and church digital amazing to work with you guys uh we spent some good time together not nearly enough

um at times we wish to be in person just so one can give you a good hug and a pat on the

back for the work and the initiatives that you're grabbing onto

so uh well done thank you for the honor and privilege of being here so yeah i'm excited to

move along so excuse me uh by god's grace um i've been in recovery 25 and a half years going on 26 years

and um yeah it's it's uh it's been a journey it indeed has been a journey it started off on

the 2nd of january 2000 after many years caught up in addiction and we've all got our war stories and

uh there's no need to reiterate what those are and uh i think for each of us um it's our it's the

own our own cross and our own process and each one that carries the pain um carries it uh without

comparison to another but yeah my journey ended up in hillbrown getting shot and i'm eventually sitting

in a in a crack house in a rather dangerous part of johannesburg on the 2nd of january 2000

uh and i woke up desperate uh just like i couldn't anymore i've been trying for for for years to get

this thing right in and out of rehab um and really just couldn't manage to get myself out and um yeah

i cried out to god and ended up in an amazing church ramer church that's a sunday morning 2nd of january

2000 i gave my uh life to the lord and ended up going straight back to yeah the dodgiest part of

johannesburg that you can ever think of um however for the next 18 days he just slammed door shut and

blocked my way and i found myself checking into a really hardcore christian rehabilitation center i

thought well that that we get too easily we esteem too lightly um so i picked the hard way to get things

done and um god did what he does best he just moved and shifted my life around um and um you are the journey

of restoration and the journey of healing um started that day um that i i left there and as i left the

treatment center um there i will never forget that there was a picture of a man of of the sun coming

up from from behind the mountain not actually a picture the real thing um and god spoke to me clearly

and he said uh i'm needing to open a rehabilitation center and i i debated with him like like who is this

speaking to me i had no experience of that at that point in time and uh yeah i'd been in the motor

industry and done a while at time but had no experience in recovery at yet at that stage

um so yeah i ended up a a short while later um yeah being obedient and opening up a treatment center

that went on to become a flagship treatment sentence the african internationally uh which i ran for some

uh with with some amazing people and family for 18 years and uh we we yeah we we really changed the way

we wanted to do recovery and the way that we believe recovery should be done um you know he shouted out

like you know who can i send you know um and when we put our hands up to say here i am it's quite hard

to pull them back down but uh more importantly he also goes on to say behold i'm doing a new thing

can you not feel it can you not see it can you not perceive it um and i see that's what's happening

here to today um on control alt delete um to see this church digital recovery initiative really taking

um taking taking ground and and really seizing the territory so yeah south coast went on to become

an amazing an amazing facility that uh really taught us how to do things in a in a different manner

uh i mean it really brought home um it really brought home a situation that are averse that

i really wanted i just um draw attention to that um 2 corinthians 12 7 and when it says that that

in our weakness and his strength is perfected it really goes on further to say that the power

and the authority of the grace of the creator of the universe rests upon us i mean in our weakness

his strength is perfected and i just felt um really strongly today that um we we are very definitely

those that are called to more and called into that space of really getting the work done and not just

being mere spectators but really understanding that there's a whole lot of work that needs to be done

um and best that we do it ourselves and with immediacy cool um corin can just jump me back onto the slides there you

know so today we we're going to be speaking about dismantling and helpful narratives i'm trying to

challenge the outdated strategies as he laid out my heart some 20 years ago 25 years ago that we're

needing to do a new thing and create a new way that the success rates that were being demonstrated in

treatment centers um internationally not only in south africa but um you know from systems that had been

developed many many years ago that really we needed to push into the word and to create something fresh and

new um and absolutely to you know deliberate to to what he's doing so um with uh the that process we

um also looking just how the church can change um and understand that actually um addiction is out there

not in here so when we say that is not in here um sorry just one second if i may please um great sorry

my feed just jumped there a second um with it with the understanding the addiction's not out there it's

right in here it's with us it's online with us um being online in itself um is a really present um process

that we all experience to the point of asking ourselves that you know should we um take our devices or

our connectivity away what kind of withdrawal symptoms would we experience have you in need

of digital detox so really asking those hardcore questions that in fact one in every four people

are battling depression and i think those are those are conservatives sorry one every six people i

think those are conservative numbers i don't feel that that is accurate we know certainly in south

africa that the collective trauma is way greater than that and that addiction is related into all of these

final processes so yeah i do feel that when we look at it and we're starting to understand that it goes

further than substance abuse and further than alcohol that in fact 79 of men and 76 of women watch

pornography regularly obviously that's a particular sector and we're quoting barna um as a lot of us are

familiar with is that really um the situation that we with um is the situation that we're facing is um really

challenging with that amount of people being able to do it uh be stuck into pornography it's quite

horrifying um i think probably one of the more challenging one is in terms of the pastors and

the church and as we sit in that space and we try to think of you know with pastors and with the church

digital and digital and otherwise is there a safe space is there a space to go for leaders in the church

youth leaders youth pastors worship leaders executive pastors pastors wives um and in that kind of space

we we really feel that the work that we've been able to be exposed to um is significant there's a desperate need uh uh oh

sorry excuse me a desperate need of like how do we provide help you know is it an anonymous and we'll

touch on that a little bit later um is it best to bring it out onto the platform is it best to be

able to create a testimony out of it how do we actually work in a space that is going to protect

the church when we talk about pastors and leadership and i know there's many um out there um on the

platform today um it's a really important kind of process of what we're needing to wrestle with how we bring it

into the open and understanding that the pornography is one area and one aspect of it but the reality is

that um it's everywhere it's a in the church it's in the people that we sit next to it's in the people

that we work with um and it's certainly very definitely in the church i've got a great friend

of mine derek he's quite a hooligan um and he's like this is the leprosy that the that the current

church that the nowadays church is facing inside of the church and if we don't take ownership and take

development in that we are really going to get ourselves caught into a process that is not

helpful at all talking about processes we also need to understand the process addiction that myth that

it's not so bad a little bit of porn never hurt anybody um it's it's you know you know we work online

so like why should that become a problem but if we really dig it deep and i'm sure all of you are also

familiar with this and if not i would encourage you to really dive into like researching data and see

what the trends are because we want to go upstream we don't want to be the guys that are trying to

catch people in the dam at the bottom but to really go upstream and be part of the solution

and we understand that those kind of symptoms are very similar when we are talking about coming off of a

heroin addiction or if we are coming off of fentanyl or if we're coming off of a pharmaceutical

or a sex addiction or working out the relationship between a sex addiction and and in a marriage

and working in the space of eating disorders and how to manage that the symptoms are all crossing over

and the biological effects are also very very very closely tied into it the neurological impact we know

and understand now um is is one that can be restored but it takes time um and we do need to create those

new neurological pathways and to be able to foster healthy workable neurological pathways whilst also

taking a change within the ability to understand the underlying principles in fact if you um i'm sure

you've seen this one i've said that a couple of times today but but this particular slide really just

stands out for me um we use it a lot in our training and when we go into the churches and we've trained

into several thousand churches so far in our uh career in project exodus or changing the way that

recovery is being delivered and we see that the normal brain on the left hand side um looks healthy

we've been driving through an amazing part of the country um over the last two days and it often looks

like the brown and barren but yet there's green and shrubs and growth but if we look at a heroin user and we

compare that to somebody that's using pornography the damage is significant and the similarities are also

significant a challenge that the church and our environment faces that often when addiction is the

the discussion or we are working with people that are coming out of addiction or fighting to find their

way into freedom and remembering that freedom is is not just a a one-to-off kind of position i know for me

personally that the the healing and the and the immediate kind of miracle that took place with

me besides my salvation is that my ability to have a freedom of choice was restored so my freedom of

choice was restored it remains my responsibility to maintain that freedom but the families go

yeah the families get impacted significantly and we have to ask ourselves are we doing enough for the

families are the families are the families being given a voice are they along going along their own recovery

journey are they getting the ability to understand what has happened to them or what the kind of trauma

that sits within that kind of space because 71 percent um of spouses experience post-traumatic stress

support of symptoms in fact the intimate partner violence and the regular pornography use um is just an

escalating uh pandemic the divorce rates are more than double um i believe and it is actually critical

that we address recovery from a holistic perspective not just from the guys that are in recovery or

battling to get in recovery or using and the truth of the matter is that the process addiction is often

more than just the same and just as damaging but far far greater

often we we hear the guys saying well i can't afford to go to rehab or if i get to rehab that's

going to solve the problem and when my loved one or employee or our church member gets back or our

leadership gets back then the rehab's done the job and we know that these days that is simply not the case

in fact 90 percent of people who need treatment never receive it we are fortunate in south africa that

we have a have a an ability to really try and reach far and wide through a national drug master plan but

the resources to be able to deliver that is really really stretched and unfortunately we know on an

international level according to the world health organization and the unodc is that treatment challenges

that we have to be able to remain significant affordability is a significant process around it

availability to developmental resolution by center program is limited often treatment rehabs are

the time to be spent investing in our recovery in this worship disorder that we've aligned lives against

careers against families businesses and ministries against that one month or two months or three months is

not insufficient in terms of duration and has data debatable efficacy what is the particular challenge is

that the continuum of care that needs to be maintained in treatment is often flawed and that break in

communication the break in the continuity of treatment means that short-term treatment simply lacks

efficacy in its sustainability so from our perspective if we look at time within recovery there's that old saying

i'm sure everybody knows that time takes time we have an amazing fruit here in south africa called the purple

which takes time to get ripe and if you grab this beautiful succulent fruit and you try and squeeze

it right we know that it doesn't feature into a way of any kind of duration so that 28 days is not going to

do very much in terms of more but but assisting in the transition of stopping and perhaps getting a level of

stabilization long-term treatment takes time and the healing and the restoration is a critical

component that goes with that we found it really helpful when working with the churches and to be

able to spread a good understanding of what addiction is and perhaps even what it's not but more importantly

what it is is to really be able to understand it from an iceberg principle it shows a lot of clarity in terms

of folk who are not understanding what the addiction criteria are and who debate it and who wonder from

a medical perspective whether that is covering it well but we do know the symptoms of what it looks

like with isolation denial trauma dual diagnosis deregulation shame culture spiritual of course

spiritual disconnection our emotional intelligence etc i mean it really makes a significant impact if they

have an understanding especially from a church perspective that there's a complex and a substantial

amount of work that needs to be done in that ongoing development and restoration as far as the east is

from the west and in fact when we look at recovery we see truth community mental health

being restored new mindsets healthy beliefs self-worth spiritual connection authenticity optimal brain

functioning relationships being restored coping skills being established and so on and we really see the

fruits of a culture of recovery and the reality sits and remains that the truth is that effective

strategy is accessible access need to be ongoing it's not a one-off thing it's not a quick fix it's

a process as we do the paradigm shift as far as the east is from the west we are pushing off of a point and

driving towards the east and in that space of pushing away we're needing to build momentum

build culture build sustainability and we understand critically that in the next myth that the church

is not a hospital and it's not able to do the things that need to be done actually there's a whole lot that

the church can done can do that hasn't been done i should add the church has a pivotal role to play

to divide continuum of care to provide support non-judgment to understand that it's not them and us

critically people coming into recovery within the church actually is the whole church because we are in a state of recovery

we are being restored to our rightful potential and position in christ and we know that that process of sanctification

carries on the whole time it's just different levels and in fact when we work with the guys who are seeking recovery

and healing and restoration we're from coma and post-traumatic stress and um and substance abuse

and the families being affected etc we are all on the same journey of seeking christ and ready to push into it

and the church is perfectly positioned perfectly positioned to take a stand

so we know that scripture well um we know the scripture well and he does he does destroy

so from our perspective as project x is we love to empower the local church and the joy of digital is

that the local church stretches far and wide and we really want to change the culture of addiction of

negativity of um by works into a situation that actually there's work to be done in faith

and to be able to work together in partnership and in the ability to create a recovery culture through

recovery services services in a broader community base and the question remains that if the church doesn't

do this who will i think within the states the war on drugs has been um ongoing uh in many ways

in terms of walls in terms of budgets in terms of um yeah it's in all over the world that you know the

the the bridges that have been broken down of trying to get this right um and really the answer remains

in the church and if the church doesn't who will many churches like host a meeting and they want just a

meeting to be um great we've got a meeting guys and um i can see you a bit under the weather um at

church today you're coming to pray for people but perhaps spend a little bit of alcohol um let's send

them to a a meeting um that's been hosted in the church that's not going to work from my perspective

we've got to break down the walls between them and us we have to do that the church needs to own the

ministry as part of the church and when i also own the ministry the congregation the community the

leadership needs to start speaking about this and talking about it and really running and establishing

a culture a whirlpool of recovery within the church because we are looking for a church that is not

inward looking but outward looking and that's where discipleship and restoration takes place

my favorite scripture we love to do this in training it's a little bit difficult to do online

but this scripture of leaving the 99 in the wide open country and going after the one

um and we and we at the moment are in sheep country and let me tell you there's thorn bushes and dry

ground and snakes and everything else that goes with it but when you go after the night leave the 99 go

after the one it's not an easy process it's not a quick fix it's about going out and getting dirty

getting your hands dirty and really really making a difference within that space so remembering that

leading a dynamic recovery ministry ministry is the church's mandate it's not about the champion in the

church or the guy who's got a vested interest in this it's not about that because the moment we

take the iceberg principle we know that only 10 is the actual addiction behavior and then 90 is what

sustains it and anybody who's been through a death or grieving or post-traumatic stress or any of

these multiple processes still have that 90 percent of hurt and shame or grief or processing or loss or

any of these areas to work with and that is the church it's not them and us if we don't create this

whirlpool deliberately and create that momentum break the inertia and maintain that momentum we are going to

carry on losing the pathway there's the subject about anonymity is critical um i have a tattoo um which i'm

not meant to be showing around but i thought why not do it seeing it is online but ezekiel 37

belly of the bones we are raising up an army and it's not going to help if the guys have been quiet and

ducking back to be in or not in sin or to be able to create a lack of accountability accountability is

the church authenticity is the church truth is the church speaking it out bringing it out into the

light that's the church so whilst we can respect that process of bringing people into the courage

and ability of developing a testimony because we know we overcome by the power of the blood of the lamb

and the word of our spoken testimony that it is really really really critical sin dies in the light it is

a critical component that when i'm weak then i'm strong it's when i'm weak his strength in fact is perfected

in my weakness not my strength his strength and who wouldn't want that not that i'm encouraging to go

and become addicted so that you can experience that no quite the contrary it's about you don't have to

be an addiction to be involved in the recovery of the church we need to shift this from from shame

into glory to be able to really bring to light spaces where nothing needs to be hidden groups are a

cutting-edge process to be able to do that and to build community and to build this process so i tonight

want to just really say to you that life is better in a circle we are born that way i'm not sure how

much time is left and i would encourage you to jump onto our website and really find out much about

our approach our approach is innovative it is christ-centered it is new it is cutting edge it's piloted

it is beautiful and we would encourage you to really partake in life-giving resolution orientated

resources jeff i think you guys are amazing and we look forward to a way forward in the future and

really let's raise up an army and get the work done that needs to be done thanks yeah no i i i love this

conrad don't go anywhere stay on um such such a good presentation i was it was talking offline

with um andy andy and stacy backstage and just the like the the this is your brain uh this is your brain

on whatever the drug was and this is your brain on porn like that was yeah that was a no pun intended

mind-blowing for me um to see you know what what the effect of of that is the idea of um the recovery of

the church where you know okay you you may or may not be addicted to something but we all

can have a a part playing in in the the recovery of the church and embracing the stigmas six of seven

six of seven pastors have have struggled with porn um at some time in their lives and and i just did a

a mental check and i can think of five that i've had a conversation with my life and i'm a guy that's

worked with pastors you know the majority of my my my career life around that and so yeah you know

there's there's a lot of stigmas that that that are surrounded by this now now we're i want to ask

a couple questions we're a bunch of you know um you know the ragamuffin band uh square pegs and

brown holes island of toys yeah yeah you know we're close to that very much so and you know we're the

people who think differently so you know as a as an organization as as an end at the individual

levels really want to go yes um what what does how do we how do we change like normally how do we enact

change normally it's like top down okay let's get a you know a lead pastor's got to get a vision and do

something and then there's like organization change that's that's really not who we are we're we're

we're individuals kind of at the at the bottom of this and so yeah how would you suggest what does it

look like to to maybe start to enact that change or create that cultural shift uh within organizations

sure sure jeff i think you know and and not to be cliched and say like prayer is a good a good solution

to because it's you know obviously but you know we all have to pray for more wisdom and faith so i

think it's a good decision to be able to educate ourselves as much as we possibly can in that area

we were we were up in uh zambia a short while ago working with a whole bunch of of of bishops

in those in those areas representing multiple churches and we were chatting to them and doing a

presentation and they said your stats are great conrad but let me tell you ours is that every week we see five bodies

of people that have killed themselves um from um suicide from shame of pornography or homosexuality

or those kind of spaces and substance abuse overdoses and that's in lusaka

um and and when you look at that and you start looking at the amount of children that have gone through

sexual abuse um and the numbers are just staggering absolutely staggering it comes down to one person

making a change and making a difference and it's about really embracing that process and saying i'm going

to be making a difference and making a change start the conversations be authentic be transparent if you're

struggling or you're going through it then don't hide don't give it the power in fact disempower it by

bringing into the light with some strong strong folk you can speak to us we can direct you great safe spaces

initially to get this going um and to build the momentum there's great training online you can jump

onto the online training we'll teach you how to run groups and i know a lot of us are we run small

groups and those kind of things but when you have a good technique and good structure in that and then

you have a depth of resource that is available to you which you can deliver within the group culture

in the whirlpool very quickly we can create action and many churches start like that through small home

groups so yeah get it started get get into it uh take a take a stand prophesy i i i love this i was

going to ask a question about culture um and how to establish the culture but we actually just had a

question come in in the in in the q a that i think is good what are signs that we are inventing a porn

addiction um instead of just uh every once in a while fail falling for porn like at what point is is it uh

it's the person saying i would not call it addiction just a bad thing like at what point does it does it

become oh i failed you know once to oh yeah garbage i got a problem yeah yeah yeah brilliant question

thanks for your courage of coming out and doing that um the answer to your questions i think you've

answered the question um the reality is the in in our minds both uh from a biblical perspective um and

from a from an addiction perspective is if we move this word addiction and we demystify the word

addiction it's from a latin word meaning holy devoted to yeah so if we take the picture of needles and

deaths and everything else out of the way and we look at a behavior disorder and we look that we do not

want to keep on crucifying christ or going back into living in sin we want to bring it into a place

behind it there's some hectic quotes um looking at pornography is as if heroin um has been devised

a hundred times stronger than heroin injected directly into our eyes when that image comes into your mind and

into your process behind it it's really difficult to remove it alters the way that we think it alters our

spiritual foundation and our spiritual base in fact jesus you're sure was so strong in it he said if

you lust with your eyes you've committed adultery already within that space not to give you a heavy

or to lay a trip in it but if you're assessing it like why would you want to do it why would you want

to look at the daughter of our king being abused on a screen why would you want to be able to look at

your daughter perhaps we have to start asking ourselves some really seriously hard questions that

is that in god's will or my will and if we are really going to be reverent and push you into a

place of reverence um there's an amazing book of john bevere um maybe for some guys say it's not for

everybody maybe you don't know but for me the reverence of our king um is something that that changes lives

um so if if you're going to do it you do it once that's once too much um it is probably the most

addictive behavior that we can it's we're having run treatment centers um and we've had big treatment

centers and running it for a long-term treatment pornography is perhaps one of the hardest behavior

disorders it's hand the word addiction and and discard that that behavior disorder heart is so

duplicit and stealthy and so close to the truth in terms of sex and in terms of love and creation and

marriage and all of those kind of things why would we want to endanger ourselves and our godly purpose

and our wives and our husbands and because the women are like a couple of percent down that road so

yeah if you're asking the question you need to go challenge yourself yeah so good um it's just even

even to follow up on this at a personal level and thank you the person that's asking the question and

honestly yeah yeah um it's um like for at a personal level for me i fought for years whether or not i was

addicted um in that that years of me asking that question actually prevented me from from getting the

help that i needed and it wasn't until i said okay i don't even know what it means but okay i'm addicted

um you know i i stopped the fight where i it the the brokenness of that actually i believe allowed

god to kind of work through me in that it's not a problem it's not a problem yeah you know romans

romans 3 as pastors we talk about it all the time you know for all of sin and all in short we're

we're not we're not getting there and so as a result of that you know what is addiction is it one

time is it two times it's three times 10 20 does it matter uh you know at the greater point of this

asking that question honestly became a defense mechanism preventing me from getting the help

yeah that i that i needed and sure can i jump to the back of what you're saying this when we start

talking about breaking myths and breaking the process behind it the the introduction of the word

addict as a qualifying process behind it is a complete misdirection you know it's like it's

not about like i fit this label or i don't fit this label you you said it we square pigs in around holes

we we're not the guys that run within the same kind of process around it let's take that word

addiction completely out that whole thing of rock bottom completely out who do you want to be in

class how do you want to behave how would your daughter you like your daughter to be treated let's

ask ourselves some really hard questions take the word addiction out because that is a block to the

healing and restoration that waits inside for your weakness for history and to be affected so that

you carry the authority of the creator of the universe on your shoulders game changer why would we want

to do it yeah so good all right project exodus uh if you're in hublo the links on the website if not

it's project exodus.net is the website project exodus.net um we the church digital are partnering with with

project exodus uh to create uh once again project exodus works with churches and organizations

to create a culture of of recovery and we're happy to announce that we're going to get more into this

here in a little bit that we are are starting uh a recovery ministry and recovery groups and and moving

towards in that in that culture of recovery working with project exodus literally in south africa i'm

excited stacy and the team has been working on this for uh for a couple months now getting certified and

getting equipped and trained and all this and and so we're going to talk more about the the beta in a

a little bit but at an organizational level if you're interested in creating a culture of recovery

project exodus.net is a great option for you conrad i know we've had some frustrating

tech issues today but i want yeah no good problem and jumping on today and and i hope you have a good

evening in south africa and uh we'll be in touch soon i'm sure wonderful thanks so much god bless you

thank you sir bye all right hey uh one hour long stream and this is the third shirt i've been

wearing this is jeff actually this time live live not not sim live from the conference or from my

earlier conversation uh with stacy but i i'm excited uh coming off of the conference it was uh it was a

uh it was it was a joyous headache uh it was a technological nightmare uh but we are so thankful

for uh the people that came out to watch uh the the the conference engage ask questions as i said with

stacy it was a different audience than i was expecting uh but i feel like god moved through it

and actually a lot of the technological issues at a personal level um when uh when the isps broke and

75 of the world's population could not access the content the conference as we were starting said

conference which is very discouraging globally um really just kind of got to the place where uh okay

we've got to do this conference publicly and so we're gonna we're gonna i'm talking with leadership

we got to figure out a time to schedule it but i really i really am moved towards the fact that we

need to uh rebroadcast the conference publicly um not not in hublo or not behind a login but in in a

public environment uh for for many to um benefit from and so if there's one takeaway to nightmare

technological nightmares it's you know god speaks to the technological nightmares god speaks to the

difficulties god speaks to others god speaks to situations you know we could break down henry

blackerby's experiencing god all day long but at the end of the day uh god speaks when the internet

crashes as well and um i i am uh fully believing that that god was speaking to me through yesterday's

events and uh maybe just maybe just maybe he was speaking to you as well and so if you enjoyed the

conference awesome uh we've got europe coming up in five days and something hours uh it's wednesday very

early 3 a.m eastern uh will be the start of the keynotes in europe 9 a.m cet i believe more information at

missionary dot digital slash europe www dot missionary dot digital slash europe find more information and

register for the conference there almost 500 registered for that one we're excited you know

it's interesting now you know what i'm gonna save that one save that one for the next stream we're

gonna be giving a sneak peek on tuesday for the europe and so conference so www dot missionary dot digital

slash europe check out that page and with that we're gonna wrap up today's stream for we'll shoot for

everybody that spoke at yesterday's conference thank you uh i'm i'm uh very thankful for our friends

over at project exodus very thankful for our friends at regeneration uh very thankful for our friends at

at hope made strong uh like there's just been so much support for digital missionaries in

the recovery in the christ-centered recovery space and i am very very much looking forward to what god has

in store uh for our missionaries as as we shine the light of uh christ in the dark and as a result of

that have to be okay shining it on ourselves so uh for basically me on this stream this is me thanks

for jumping on the stream today we'll see you next time on the show y'all have a good one