S2:E6 Partnerships in Ministry

Dave: Welcome to the Church on Mission Podcast. I am Dave Jones, Minister at the Millwood Church of Christ in Central Ohio. And as always, I'm with Jim Book. And Jim, you're in a mystery location again. Where are you? well I am in this

James Book: well, I am in this beautiful little bungalow in a little town called Columbia, North Carolina, and doing a revival at the Cabin Swamp Church of Christ. And it's in a beautiful little spot here, about 45 minutes from the coast. but this town is noted for the largest black bear in the country. And they're everywhere. They're everywhere. So yeah, it's it's it's the revival's going well so far. A good friend of mine, Greg Brookens, preaches here and

Dave: Swamp Church of Christ. And it's in a beautiful little spot here, about forty-five minutes from the coast. but this town is noted for the largest black bear in the country, and they're everywhere. They're everywhere. So yeah, it's it's it's the revival's going well so far. A good friend of mine, Greg Brookens, preaches here, and so give an opportunity to share the ministry of the CRA and they they get the they get the Restoration Herald clear out here.

James Book: So ch give an opportunity to share the ministry of the CRA and they they get the they get the Restoration Herald clear out here in the swamp, man. They love it. So so it's good to be a part of it. This

Dave: In the swamp, man, they love it. So so it's good to be a part of it. Well, Jim, so you you do a couple of different things for the CRA as associate director. One, you travel and do coaching with churches. You're also doing revivals. What does your schedule look like? I mean, how do you determine where and when to go and and what your limits are in travel, just sort of the life you're living. How have you set those guidelines of of w when and where to go?

James Book: That's a good question. According to my wife Jeanette, I don't have enough limitations. I haven't set enough perimeters, but I'm working on it. So I I try to service every church that calls. I I just feel like and I love what I do, so it's not like it's a struggle. but a lot of times churches just want me to come in and preach a revival for that congregation and inspire and courage them. A lot of times come in, like I'm doing a speaking engagement a couple weeks in Denison, Ohio.

Dave: That's a good question. According to my wife Jeanette, I don't have enough limitations. I haven't set enough perimeters, but I'm working on it. So I I I try to service every church that calls. I I just feel like and I love what I do, so it's not like it's a a struggle. but a lot of times churches just want me to come in and preach a revival for that congregation and inspire and curse them. A lot of times come in, like I'm doing a speaking engagement a couple weeks in Denison, Ohio.

James Book: with part Christian church, but I mean with their leadership, a big campfire. And we're gonna just talk about vision, developing leaders. And then I a lot of times we we sit down with leaders and develop a a mission statement for their church and how to expand their spiritual center, incorporating new ministries, new outreach programs. And so anytime I can consult with a leadership or a preacher and help them expand their vision, that's really what the CRA

Dave: with part Christian church, but I mean with their leadership, a big campfire, and we're gonna just talk about vision, developing leaders. And then I a lot of times we we sit down with leaders and develop a a mission statement for their church and how to expand their spiritual center, incorporating new ministries, new outreach programs. And so anytime I can consult with a leadership or a preacher and help them expand their vision, that's really what the CRA

James Book: has me doing.

Dave: has me doing.

James Book: And I love it. I, you know, we have this great Zoom call, Dave. You're on it. We got about 50 preachers once a month. And by the way, if you're listening to this and you're not on that,

Dave: And I love it. I you know, we have this great Zoom call, Dave. You're on it. We got about fifty preachers once a month. And by the way, if you're listening this and you're not on that, let me know. email me, jamescbook at gmail.com and I'll get you on that. But we have a different speaker every month discussing ways to expand our vision in our local church. And then of course Dave, you and I get to do this, which I love, these weekly podcasts on how to be a church on mission. But yeah, so

James Book: let me know. email me, jamescbook at gmail.com, and I'll get you on that. But we have a different speaker every month discussing ways to expand our vision in our local church. And then of course, Dave, you and I get to do this, which I love, these weekly podcasts on how to be a church on mission. But yeah, so I I travel as much as I can within reason and and try to empower and encourage churches to think past themselves and include God in their story and and watch God do great things in their church.

Dave: I I travel as much as I can within reason and and try to empower and encourage churches to think past themselves and include God in their story and and watch God do great things in their church. Yeah. So most churches if they're hosting a revival or just having you in to preach will offer some sort of honorarium amount plus all your expenses. They should take

James Book: Yes.

Dave: care of all of that. How how would it work if if a church wanted to have you in more in a coaching visit and then some ongoing things, maybe interactions with the church. What does that look like financially, I would say, for the church? Okay. So obviously the CRA has hired me and and John's been very good about Jim, just get out there and get the message out. So we most churches, every church almost to the to the church covers my expenses and we have to have that. And and then give me a little something if they want. but then we also include those churches in

James Book: Okay. So obviously the CRA has hired me and and John's been very good about Jim. Just get out there and get the message out. So we most churches, every church almost to the to the church covers my expenses, and we have to have that. And and then give me a little something if they want. but then we also include those churches in post-revival, post seminar connections. There's a lot of coaching that goes on after the seminar. But let me just say this and get the

Dave: post revival, post seminar connections. There's a lot of coaching that goes on after the seminar. But let me just say this and get the

James Book: Get this cat out of the bag right now. We would love for the our churches that have used me and used John to pick the CRA up financially. I mean, this ministry is a faith ministry and for us to do the things that we're able to do, and I know Dave, you're a trustee and your church is totally supported. The CRA,

Dave: get this cat out of the bag right now. We would love for the our churches that have used me and used John to pick the CRA up financially. I mean this ministry is a faith ministry and for us to do the things that we're able to do and I Dave you're a trustee and your church is totally supportive the CRA

James Book: boy, I would love for more churches to go, hey, we like what you're doing, Jim. We want to be able to help the CRA so you can help other churches down the road in the future. And if you if you could pick the CRA up in your monthly giving.

Dave: Boy, I would love for more churches to go. Hey, we like what you're doing, Jim. We want to be able to help the CRA so you can help other churches down the road in the future. And if you if you could pick the CRA up in your monthly giving

James Book: or individual support, it would assure what we're doing to continue to happen in the future.

Dave: or individual support, it would assure what we're doing to continue to happen in the future. That's good. So when you think of the CRA, we have John, who was sort of a one man show for a number of years as director of the CRA with a staff there in the office.

James Book: Right.

Dave: administrative staff. And then you you came on board over a year ago now in your current role. what's the the differences in your role versus John's role, the dynamic of working together with John Mitchell as director and you as associate director? So, you know, Dave, you and I were talking about this program and kind of how we wanted to set it up, how you could co lead an organization to success or failure depending on

James Book: So, you know, Dave, you and were talking about this program and kind of how we wanted to set it up, how you could co-lead an organization to success or failure, depending on who's involved in the program. John is extreme and you know this because we've been friends with him as well, you're on a board. I you I think John and I came on the board together. man, John is so gifted in areas that I am absolutely not gifted. John

Dave: Who's involved in the program? John is extreme, and you know this because we've been friends with him. Well, you're on a board. I you I think John and I came on the board together. Yeah. man, John is so gifted in areas that I am absolutely not gifted. John

James Book: is an engineer, so he's extraordinarily you know systematic in his thinking. I'm all over the place.

Dave: is an engineer, so he's extraordinarily you know, he's systematic in his thinking. I'm all over the place. John is the editor of the Restoration Herald and and he's incredibly gifted. I I can barely write a sentence and conjugate a sentence without butchering it. John is a great editor.

James Book: John is the editor of the Restoration Herald, and he's incredibly gifted. I I can barely write a sentence and conjugate a sentence without butchering it. John is a great editor, and and people love when he comes in because I a lot of times I follow him or I'm before him. And people say, Man, John has just got such great material and he's

Dave: and and people love when he comes in because I a lot of times I follow him or I'm before him, and people say, Man, John has just got such great material and he's

James Book: you know, he's he's he he knows how to coach, but he's he's kind of a a Tom Landry kind of approach to ministry, which is great. but when the CRA hired me, you guys brought me in, you said, Look, we we you know, your past has been in casting a vision and growing a church and developing an outreach.

Dave: know, he's he's he's he knows how to coach, but he's he's kind of a a Tom Landry kind of approach to ministry, which is great. but when the CRA hired me, you guys brought me in, you said, Look, we we you know, your past has been in casting a vision and growing a church and developing an outreach

James Book: program and and and being inwardly focused, but really focused on outreach-centered ministries. And so I came in and I brought that with me. And John said, you know, Jim, that's a gift that you have that I really haven't had in my ministry. So

Dave: program and and and being inwardly focused, but really focused on outreach centered ministries. And so I came in and I brought that with me. And John said, You know, Jim, that's a gift that you have that I really haven't had in my ministry. So

James Book: I think that's why we work so well together because our strengths are in completely different areas, but we have one common goal and that's to advance the kingdom.

Dave: I think that's why we work so well together because our strengths are in completely different areas, but we have one common goal and that's to advance the kingdom. Last episode you talked about Mike Lynn and E. L. Jones down at Compass Christian Church and how they were able to to merge the church and you know both those men very well. What works so effectively now Mike's retired now, but they served as co senior ministers there. how does that work effectively in a church where you've got two people that are in key roles like that?

James Book: Well, I I because I I kind of talked to E. L a little bit over the years, and t I think it it kind of carried on that John the Baptist Jesus role. When Jesus came walking up to John the Baptist, John the Baptist said, Behold, here comes the lamb who's going to take away the sins of the world. He didn't refer to himself that way. and then he said, I'm not even worthy to unloose your sandals. Now, this is coming from a man who's on the front page of of the Jerusalem Times. He's the front story.

Dave: Well, I I 'cause I I kinda talked to E. L. a little bit over the years and t I think it it kinda carried on that John the Baptist Jesus role. When Jesus came walking up to John the Baptist, John the Baptist said, Behold, here comes the lamb who's gonna take away the sins of the world. He didn't refer himself that and then he said, I'm not even worthy to unloose your sandals. Now this is coming from a man who's on the front page of of the Jerusalem Times. He's the front story.

James Book: Of CNN and Fox News, he's baptizing hundreds and thousands of people at the Jordan River. And yet he sees Jesus and says, I'm not even worthy to unshackle your sandals. And Jesus said to him, I want you to baptize me. And I look at those two men and I see leaders. I see men who have tremendous influence. But John knew his role. John knew what lane to get in. And I just believe that a team of leaders on a church.

Dave: Of CNN and Fox News, he's baptizing hundreds and thousands of people at the Jordan River. And yet he sees Jesus and says, I'm not even worthy to unshackle your sandals. And Jesus said to him, I want you to baptize me. And I look at those two men and I see leaders. I see men who have tremendous influence. But John knew his role. John knew what lane to get in. And I I just believe that a team of leaders on a church.

James Book: Everybody has to feel comfortable with the lane that they're in, stay in that lane, and always find a way to compliment the other team members. And Mike and EL did that. Because I wondered about him. EL's kind of like, you know, he's very effervescent and gregarious and kind of a, you know, bombastic in a way in the way he presents things. Mike's very systematic, you know, very reserved, but but you know, he's got great material. But yet they work together so well. And I think it's because they respected each other so much.

Dave: Everybody has to feel comfortable with the lane that they're in, stay in that lane, and always find a way to compliment the other team members. And Mike and EL did that. Because I wondered about him. EL's kind of like, you know, he's very effervescent and gregarious and kind of a, you know, bombastic in a way in the way he presents things. Mike's very systematic, you know, very reserved, but but you know, he's got great material. But yet they work together so well. And I think it's because they respected each other so much.

James Book: They had that John the Baptist, Jesus ideology in ministry. And when you're always looking to uplift the other guy, ego never has time to fester and grow. And that I think was one of the reasons they had such great success.

Dave: They had that John the Baptist, Jesus ideology in ministry. And when you're always looking to uplift the other guy, ego never has time to fester and grow. And that I think was one of the reasons they had such great success. Yeah, and part of it, I don't know at what point Mike's retirement came into the equation, but the the whole transition toward where now E. L is the senior minister there takes us back to our very first episode when we talked about transitions.

James Book: Yes.

Dave: And bringing in the new man and the the younger fellow there and just how there has to be a a spirit of humility on both sides

James Book: Yes.

Dave: of the guys to operate well together. You can't have necessarily two type A bombastic using your term guys that are sort of pushing each other out of the way the whole time. That just will not work. And

James Book: Right.

Dave: it causes division within the church. So when we think about the two man teams, we could go all through scripture. You know, all the way back to Moses and Aaron, Elijah and Elisha, Paul and Timothy, Paul and Barnabas, they had a neat relationship as well. What are some key benefits of having not not that we're calling out to have two evangelists in every church? That's not the point of this episode, but it's it's to talk about the importance of working together as as a team. what's what are the key qualities required to make that work? So funny thing, Dave.

James Book: So funny thing, Dave,

Dave: again part of the what I do at the CRA is is consulting and coaching preachers. So within the last couple of months I've had two phone calls from preachers with sizable staff. I mean over five full time staff members in their church. So it's a good sized congregation. And both guys were you know very guarded in their conversation with me, but you could the lamentation coming from their conversation was this in a nutshell.

James Book: again, part of the what I do at the CRA is is consulting and coaching preachers. So within the last couple of months, I've had two phone calls from preachers with sizable staff. I mean, over five full-time staff members in their church. So it's a good sized congregation. And both guys were, you know, very guarded in their conversation with me, but you could the lamentation coming from their conversation was this in a nutshell. Ministry is stressful when you're dealing with the sheep, but I've learned to do deal with that effectively. My biggest challenge, they said, is managing the staff. And and they were going through, you know, and and and and and I understand it, you know, because we had a staff of, you know, if you took the school and the church, you know, it was over 30 full-time staff members. Now I didn't have to necessarily manage the teachers, but indirectly I did because a lot of times there was a lot of crossovers,

Dave: Ministry is stressful when you're dealing with the sheep, but I've learned to do deal with that effectively. My biggest challenge, they said, is managing the staff. And and they were going through, you know, and and and and and I understand it, you know, because we had a staff of, you know, if you took the school and the church, you know, it was over thirty full time staff members. Now I didn't have to necessarily manage the teachers, but indirectly I did because a lot of times there was a lot of crossovers,

James Book: ministries they crossed over and anyway I I just thought, wow, if that has gotta be taxing because when you go into ministry, you you think, you know, our job is to save the lost and disciple the saved. And then these guys were lamenting that so much of their time and effort was in coaching or pampering or I don't know,

Dave: ministries they crossed over and anyway I I just thought wow if that is gotta be taxing because when you go into ministry you you think you know our job is to save the lost and disciple the saved and then these guys were lamenting that so much of their time and effort was in coaching or pampering or I don't know

James Book: Trying to develop healthy relationships with a fractured staff. And I thought, man, nothing sucks the energy out of a preacher more than that. So I will, I've always believed, first of all, the a staff member has to understand the biblical concepts of developing spiritually. He has to be growing spiritually. Secondly, and this is almost as important, his personality has to gel with the other team.

Dave: trying to develop healthy relationships f with a fractured staff. And I thought, man, nothing sucks the energy out of a preacher more than that. So I will, I've always believed, first of all, the a staff member has to understand the biblical concepts of developing spiritually. He has to be growing spiritually. Secondly, and this is almost as important, his personality has to gel with the other team.

James Book: And if it doesn't, you're gonna have disfigure.

Dave: And if it doesn't, you're gonna have dysfunction.

James Book: function and it's never gonna work. And now I've always believed as a lead minister, one of the best ways to keep your staff in, you know, cohesively work together is find ways to publicly praise them. And so and it wasn't you know I wasn't you know being cliche but I would say from the pulpit you know before we get into this you know if if we were starting our life groups in the fall and our new

Dave: And it's never gonna work. And now I've always believed as a lead minister, one of the best ways to keep your staff in, you know, cohesively work together is find ways to publicly praise them. And so and it wasn't you know, I wasn't, you know, being cliche, but I would say from the pulpit, you know, before we get into this, you know, if if we were starting our life groups in the fall and our new

James Book: Wednesday night, I would always compliment the associate minute. This guy is the one that puts all the time and effort in it. Can we, can we recognize his effort right now? Or the elders, you know, I would, I would mention from the pulpit our elders by name. That sends a clear signal to the congregation. He likes his staff. He's not intimidated by his elders, or he would never compliment them, or he would say condescending things. That to me really helped bridge gaps with my staff.

Dave: Wednesday night, I would always compliment the associate. But this guy is the one that puts all the time and effort in it. Can we, can we recognize his effort right now? Or the elders, you know, I would, I would mention from the pulpit our elders by name. That sends a clear signal to the congregation. He likes his staff. He's not intimidated by his elders, or he would never compliment them, or he would say condescending things. That to me really helped bridge gaps with my staff.

James Book: And and we always found ways to to do things together. We didn't oversaturate ourselves, but man, we would have once a month staff lunches. Guys, put your pencils down, everything. We're all going out and we would, you know, eight or nine of us, and we would see each other outside the office. We had a policy where we encouraged our staff to leave your doors open and have a kind of a commune environment and and exchange of ideas. Sometimes we'd stop in the middle of the day and bring

Dave: And and we always found ways to to do things together. We didn't oversaturate ourselves, but man, we would have once a month staff lunches. Guys put your pencils down and everything. Guess we're all going out and we would, you know, eight or nine of us, and we would see each other outside the office. We had a policy where we encouraged our staff to leave your doors open and to have a kind of a commune environment and and exchange of ideas. Sometimes we'd stop in the middle of the day and bring

James Book: three or four staff members in and say, hey, I'm getting ready to develop this. I need your thoughts. I want your opinion. Those simple tools validate, validate, validate. And that's, I think, a great way to keep everybody on the same page versus this clandestined approach to church development where everybody stays in their office and you never see them communicating. I think that's just so dangerous. I know that's a lot, but to me that's that's how you create that cohesive spirit.

Dave: three or four staff members in and say, hey, I'm getting ready develop this. I need your thoughts. I want your opinion. Those simple tools validate, validate, validate. And that's I think a great way to keep everybody on the same page versus this clandestine approach to church development where everybody stays in their office and you never see them communicating. I think that's just so dangerous. I know that's a lot, but to me that's that's how you create that cohesive spirit. You know whether you're a preacher on a church staff or you have ministry leaders, deacons and elders and no church staff, it's important to understand I I like the term that Joe Hines uses out of Wordburn, Indiana. we end up in silos and everybody's

James Book: Yes.

Dave: doing their own thing. So how d how do we bridge that gap, Jim, and bringing whether it's staff, paid staff or volunteers, how do we bridge that and bring them out of the silos and become more Collaborative in our work and and complement not just complementing the work others are doing, but complementing one another based on our our our abilities and workload. Well, a salubrious environment does never happens by accident. And that silo mentality has become so prevalent in our culture. So next I our our next door neighbor just moved into her home and I was out working in the yard Saturday and I saw her pull up. Now she her house got built.

James Book: Well, a a salubrious environment does never happens by accident. And that silo mentality has become so prevalent in our culture. So next I our our next door neighbor just moved into her home. And I was out working in the yard Saturday and I saw her pull up. Now she her house got built after ours did and it stayed empty for months. It was built, it was turned key regular, but she didn't move in. She finally moved in. So I'm working in the yard and I thought, I don't want to talk to her now. I'm I'm I was I was putting

Dave: after ours did and it stayed empty for months. It was built. It was turnkey right and but she didn't move in. She finally moved in. So I'm working in the yard and I thought, I don't want to talk to her now. I'm I'm I was I was putting

James Book: pine straw and and our flower. I was just exhausted. I thought, I don't, but I I want to I want to introduce myself. And then I want to introduce her to my church. I wanted to get her to go to our our our our church in in Montgomery. So she pulls up and I'm like, great. I'm just kind of catching my breath. And as soon as she pulls up in her garage, the door went down.

Dave: pine straw and in our flower. I was just exhausted. I thought I don't but I I want to I wanna introduce myself. And then I want to introduce her to my church. I wanted to get her to go to our our our our church in in Montgomery. So she pulls up and I'm like great. I'm just kind of catching my breath and as soon as she pulls up in her garage, the door went down.

James Book: I'm like, I'm not going to go banging on her door, but I really wanted to have one of those, hey, as she got out of her car going to her front door. She pulled in, shut the door, never saw her. And still haven't seen her. Still haven't made contact.

Dave: I'm like, I'm not gonna go banging on her door, but I really wanted to have one of those, hey, as she got out of her car going to the front door. She pulled in, shut the door, never saw her. Still haven't seen her. Still haven't made contact.

James Book: But that's how the church is working, though. And I was talking to a church leader the other day. He goes, Jim, we used to have this kind of a you know solicitous environment where we came together and we up, you know, we high-fived each other. He goes, Man, it's it's like a tomb in our offices. All the staff

Dave: But that's how the church is working, though. And I was talking to a church leader the other day and goes, Jim, we used to have this kind of you know, solicitous environment where we came together and we up, you know, we high-fived each other. He goes, Man, it's it's like a tomb in our offices, all the staff.

James Book: goes into the main door and they all go and shut the door. Now they said part of the issues and challenges is this that's how the senior minister is. He doesn't want to communicate, he goes in.

Dave: goes into the main door and they all go and shut the door. Now they said part of the issues and challenges is this that's how the senior minister is. He doesn't want to communicate. He goes in,

James Book: He likes to hibernate in his books and develop. And I get it, you know, sometimes you have to shut your door. I'm not saying you can never, but he is setting, I think, a dangerous tone. Because what he's saying is, stay out of my world, stay out of my life. When it's four o'clock, I'll open the door

Dave: he likes to hibernate in his books and develop. And I get it, you know, sometimes you have to shut your door. I'm not saying you can never, but he is setting I think a dangerous tone. Because what he's saying is stay out of my world, stay out of my life. When it's four o'clock, I'll open the door.

James Book: and head downstairs, go home, and I'll just re-repeat that same cycle. And what he's doing is like a father. He's failing to communicate with his kids. And I really look at the lead minister as a father figure, you know. and I I'm

Dave: And head downstairs, go home, and I'll just re-repeat that same cycle. And what he's doing is like a father. He's failing to communicate with his kids. And I really look at the lead minister as a father figure. You know, and I I I'm

James Book: I don't say this to pat myself on the back, but I was visiting our our church, my home church a couple months ago. I was I spoke at their high the graduation for their middle school, their eighth grade, and one of the staff members like,

Dave: I don't say this to pat myself on the back, but I was visiting our our church, my home church, a couple of months ago. I was I spoke at the high the graduation for their middle school, their eighth grade, and and one of the staff members is like,

James Book: you know, he said, Jim, I I kind of looked to you as my father. Now he's older than me. And and and and one he was talking to one of the elders and he said, you know, Jim, Jim kind of fathered us as a staff. And I I took that as a compliment. I said, Man, man, I

Dave: You know, he said, Jim, I I kind of looked at you as my father. Now he's older than me. And and he and and one he was talking to one of the elders and he said, you know, Jim, Jim kind of fathered us as a staff. And I I took that as a compliment. I I said, Man, man, I I didn't know you felt that way, but man, that means so much. Now I'm not saying I was perfect by any means, but I really did view my staff as kind of an extension of my family. And I knew that I wouldn't talk to my wife in a derogatory way. I wouldn't

James Book: I didn't know you felt that way, but man, that means so much. And I'm not saying I was perfect by any means, but I really did view my staff as kind of an extension of my family. And I knew that I wouldn't talk to my wife in a derogatory way. I wouldn't dismiss my children. I would stop everything if they called. And I did. If like my kids called, I was like, hang on just second. I I always just took their call. And I thought, you know, if I can by extension treat the staff the same way, I can't go wrong. It can't go wrong.

Dave: dismiss my children. I would stop everything if they called. And I did. My kids called. I was like, hang just second. I I always just took their call. And I thought, you know, if I can by extension treat the staff the same way, I can't go wrong. It can't go wrong.

James Book: And it and I'll tell you, it wasn't perfect, but it was really healthy. And I think one reason why the church grew the way it did is because of the team we had. And I would tell them all the time. I know sometimes the preacher he

Dave: And it and I'll tell you, it wasn't perfect. But it was really healthy. And I think one reason why the church grew the way it did is because of the team we had. And I would tell them all the time. I know sometimes the preacher

James Book: gets the kudos and people walk around going, great leadership, Jim. I would tell I would stop people on their track and say, please don't forget these guys right here help make it happen. Without them, we're nothing. And certainly without the Lord, we're we we can't even get off the ground. That works, it doesn't fail.

Dave: He gets the kudos and people walk around going, great leadership, Jim. I would tell, I would stop people on their track and say, please don't forget, these guys right here help make it happen. Without them, we're nothing. And certainly without the Lord, we're we we can't even get off the ground. That works. It doesn't fail.

James Book: Just, just have that kind of relationship and make sure your staff reciprocates. Make sure they know, hey, that's how we work here.

Dave: Just just have that kind of relationship and make sure your staff reciprocates. Make sure they know, hey, that's how we work here.

James Book: That's how it's going to work.

Dave: And that's God's gonna work. That's true, whether it's a paid staff or the volunteers that are actively

James Book: Absolutely.

Dave: involved in ministry, they want to be known, loved, and recognized and and make sure

James Book: It it it it

Dave: that that the the work they're done has value and that

James Book: Yes.

Dave: the people are aware of what's happening there. You know, Paul, if you read Romans sixteen, you have to get all the way down to the end of the chapter as he's closing it out. He literally calls

James Book: You know, Paul, if you read Romans 16, you have to get all the way down to the end of the chapter as he's closing it out. He literally calls dozens of people by name. I mean, I thought, why would you waste a chapter calling people by name going, thank the Lord for this guy, thank the Lord for this woman, thank the and it's an entire chapter dedicated to kudos to this person. And I realized.

Dave: Dozens of people by name. I mean, I thought, why would you waste a chapter calling people by name, going, thank the Lord for this guy, thank the Lord for this woman, thank the and it's an entire chapter dedicated to kudos to this person. And I realized

James Book: Paul understood the secret of success. Make sure you let the world know the people that are doing well, they need recognition. Now, those people didn't ask to be recognized. They

Dave: Paul understood the secret of success. Make sure you let the world know the people that are doing well, they need recognition. Now, those people didn't ask to be recognized.

James Book: didn't email Paul and go, hey, when you're finished out your letter to the church at Rome, make sure you include me in it. He and that's the difference. And I've had people say, please don't mention me by name. And I've told them, no, I have to. I'm going to mention you by name. I don't care that you whether you like it or not. I have to mention you my name because I'm trying to reach.

Dave: They didn't email Paul and go, hey, when you finish out your letter to the church at Rome, make sure you include me in it. He and that's the difference. And I've had people say, Please don't mention me by name. And I've told No, I have to. I'm gonna mention you by name. I don't care that you whether you like it or not, I have to mention you my name because I'm trying to reach

James Book: The 80% in the congregation that doesn't know that this church works because of people like you. And I'm trying to recruit them to be like you. And I can't if I don't mention your name. So I'm

Dave: the eighty percent in the congregation that doesn't know that this church works because of people like you, and I'm trying to recruit them to be like you, and I can't if I don't mention your name. So Yeah.

James Book: mentioning your name.

Dave: And it's really helpful when you mention Bob Bob who worked outside last week and did this kind of work around the church building. There's somebody else in the auditorium like, you know, I was looking for something to do around here. I bet I could do

James Book: Exactly.

Dave: that. And it sort of becomes inspirational for other people to that are there. I saw I got a text from a guy yesterday. He is burning he's burning it up for the Lord. I mean unbelievable. There

James Book: I saw I got a text from a guy yesterday. He is burning, he's burning it up for the Lord. I mean unbelievable. There every church would kill to have this guy.

Dave: Every church would kill to have this guy.

James Book: And I could tell in his email, he just feels undervalued, under prev under underappreciated at the church that he attends. And let me just say this sometimes preachers forget to say thank you. I mean, what what man hasn't forgotten that his anniversary, you know, and he found out at the end of the day it was his anniversary and he paid for that, my friend. So we've all fallen short. We've all forgotten to say thank you. We've forgotten to compliment people when we should have.

Dave: And I could tell in his email, he just feels undervalued, under prev under, underappreciated at the church that he attends. And let me just say this. Sometimes preachers forget to say thank you. I mean, what what man hasn't forgotten that his anniversary, you know, and he found out at the end of the day it was his anniversary, and he paid for that, my friend. So we've all fallen short. We've all forgotten to say thank you. We've forgotten to compliment people when we should have.

James Book: I've done that and I'm

Dave: I've done that and I'm and I feel terrible, but it happens. We're human. But I could tell in this guy's voice that he it would mean so much if the senior minister just put his arm around him and said, Hey, I just want you to know what you're doing to expand the kingdom in this church and this community is invaluable. Now that 15 seconds would go a long way. And you could tell his voice, now he's not gonna quit. He's still serving.

James Book: And I feel terrible, but it happens. We're human. But I could tell in this guy's voice that he it would mean so much if the senior minister just put his arm around him and said, Hey, I just want you to know what you're doing to expand the kingdom in this church and this community is invaluable. Now that 15 seconds would go a long way. And you could tell in his voice. Now he's not going to quit, he's still serving, but he just needs the dad.

Dave: But he just needs the dad, the preacher, or a couple of the elders to say, I notice what you're doing, and I thank the Lord on your behalf. That's what Paul did in First Thessalonians. He said to the Thessalonian church, I thank God for this church, and I let Macedonian churches in Achai know what you're doing. Man, Paul, he was psychologically, he got it. He knew how to say and compliment and encourage without blowing someone's ego up at the same

James Book: Preacher or a couple of the elders to say, I notice what you're doing, and I thank the Lord on your behalf. That's what Paul did in First Thessalonians. He said to the Thessalonian church, I thank God for this church, and I let Macedonian churches in Achai know what you're doing. Man, Paul, he was psychologically, he got it. He knew how to say and compliment and encourage without blowing someone's ego up at the same time.

Dave: time. You're you're familiar with Second Timothy two, two, where Paul writes to Timothy to the things that I have you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, and trust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. So discipleship is so much about doctrine. And

James Book: Yes.

Dave: we're just teaching people what we know so that they can believe the same and then go and teach other people. How important is ministry discipleship and life discipleship beyond the doctrine for men who are in preaching or eldership rules. So, you know, we had Bob Belts on a couple weeks ago and you know, Bob and preached for years at Valley Mills Christian Church in Indianapolis. And I always thought of Bob as gifted and a lot of things, but his his vision for men's ministry was huge. And he you know, he spent the first program just just just reminding

James Book: So, you know, we had Bob belts on a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, Bob and preached for years at Valley Mills Christian Church in Indianapolis. And I always thought of Bob as gifted and a lot of things, but his his vision for men's ministry was huge. And he, you know, he spent the first program just just just reminding men if you don't have someone that you can go to when you're in an a desperate time in your life or

Dave: Men, if you don't have someone that you can go to when you're in a desperate time in your life or

James Book: that you can pour into and you can be mentored a disciple. He's like, man, that is one of the biggest f drawbacks of ministry is guys are out there all by themselves. They're islands. And he said, find, find that Silas, find that Barnabas, and and and don't go in it alone. You know, Elijah,

Dave: that you can pour into and you can be mentored a disciple, he's like, Man, that is one of the biggest drawbacks of ministry, is guys are out there all by themselves. They're islands. And he said, Find find that Silas, find that Barnabas, and and and don't go in it alone. You know, Elijah

James Book: you know, he comes off the mountain, this great victory, and he doesn't have anybody to go to, or he doesn't think he does.

Dave: you know, he comes off the mountain, this great victory, and he doesn't have anybody to go to. Or he doesn't think he does.

James Book: And then the Lord reminds him, you know, there's thousands that are championing my cause just like you. But in it what he and God had to remind him that there were people, but he didn't know that until God said it. And I always wonder if Elijah had had someone to pick up, if he could have picked up the phone and called a preacher and said, Hey, we just had a huge revival and I ran off the prophets of Baal and and I think it's gonna start raining again. And I think we can get

Dave: And then the Lord reminds him, you know, there's thousands that are championing my cause just like you. But in i it what he d and God had to remind him that there were people, but he didn't know that until God said it. And I always wonder if Elijah had had someone to pick up if he could have picked up the phone and and called a preacher and said, Hey, we just had a huge revival and I ran off the prophets of Baal and and I think it's gonna start raining again and I think we can get

James Book: Jezebel and her husband out of office and you know get a new administrator.

Dave: Jezebel and her husband out of office and you know get a new administrator.

James Book: But I'm feeling terrible right now. Had he had someone go, hey man, listen, let's talk about those victories and let's contemplate what victories are ahead of you. I don't know that he would have run into that cave. I don't know that he would have. But I know this. He didn't pick up the phone and call anybody. And because of that, despair set in and isolation. And you know, mold grows best, Dave, when it's isolated. It does. Mold grows best

Dave: But I'm feeling terrible right now. Had he had someone go, hey man, listen, let's talk about those victories and let's contemplate what victories are ahead of you. I don't know that he would have run into that cave. I don't know that he would have. But I know this. He didn't pick up the phone and call anybody. And because of that, despair set in and isolation. And you know, mold grows best, Dave, when it's isolated. It does. Mold grows best.

James Book: when it's dark and isolated. And I think despair, frustration,

Dave: When it's dark and isolated. And I think despair, frustration,

James Book: Gross best when there's when the preachers are out there on an island and no one to turn to. So I I'm a big believer. Find someone that you can pour into.

Dave: grows best when there's when the preachers are out there on an island and no one to turn to. So I I'm a big believer. Find someone that you can pour into. Jim, when I was young in the ministry, I was in my thirties by the time I started preaching. I had Dick Chambers come alongside me for a period of time, who's an incredible encourager and we would meet up at a restaurant and he would It was more like counseling sessions. You know, this is what I'm dealing with,

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: these are the questions I have, I'm not sure what to do. And you know, Dick at that point in the ministry for forty plus years and so he was a great mentor for me in that way. And then I had two men in the church who really helped to disciple me on what we might call the more pastoral aspects of ministry. They were older than me, and those two guys mentored me in that area of of pastoral work, if you will. How about for you? Who were those guys early in your ministry that well that sort of took Well, I know this it's funny, you you didn't I don't think you asked that question to get this answer, but I you played a huge role and I'll tell you how. When Jeanette and I were talking about

James Book: Well, and Dave, I know this it's funny. You you didn't I don't think you asked that question to get this answer, but I you played a huge role, and I'll tell you how. When Jeanette and I were talking about how

Dave: How to segue out of the preaching ministry. We didn't know time frames. We kind of knew we were ready. We were wanting to move close to the grandkids. I was kind of seeing this consulting work and

James Book: to segue out of the preaching ministry, we didn't know time frames. We kind of knew we were ready, we were wanting to move close to the grandkids. I was kind of seeing this consulting work and and expanding my role and coaching churches on a greater level, but I knew I couldn't do both. I couldn't do located work and all the things that needed to be managed at Kasimmi and my family and do this. And I remember I I said to her, honey, I gotta get advice. I gotta, I can't ask my elders right now.

Dave: expanding my role and coaching churches on a greater level, but I knew I couldn't do both. I couldn't do located work and all the things that needed to be managed at Kasimmi and my family and do this. And I remember I said to her, honey, I gotta get advice. I gotta, I can't ask my elders right now.

James Book: And and I had great elders, but you know you can't walk up to your own go, hey, I'm contemplating leaving. Can I get some advice? That once that that's like opening up a pillowcase, man. Those feathers are gone. You never get back.

Dave: And and I great elders, but you you can't walk up to your own go, hey, I'm contemplating leaving. Can I get some advice? That once that that's like opening up a pillowcase, man. Those feathers are gone, you never get it back. And I said, Man, I gotta find someone that I know is wise, someone that I trust, someone that I I I can share with. And I've already shared, you know, some life stories with. And she's like, You oughta talk to Dave. I was like, You're right. yeah.

James Book: And I said, man, I gotta find someone that I know is wise, someone that I trust, someone that I I I can share with. And I've already shared, you know, some life stories with. And I she's like, you ought to talk to Dave. I was like, you're right. yeah. And I remember I remember we were sitting at Starbucks. I like, I found out that later. the other day, you beat the L's dad. No, she met you. So I I said, I remember we were sitting at Starbucks after a trustee's meeting we'd left.

Dave: And I remember I remember we were sitting at Starbucks. She met the other Dave Jones, by the way. I found out that later. the other Dave he beat the L's dad. She met you. So I I said, I remember we were sitting at Starbucks after a trustees meeting we'd left

James Book: And you were getting ready to head back home. And we always like to get a go to the watering hole before we we left. I said, Dave, I just I gotta roll something out, man. I need I just need your advice. And you were great. And and in fact, you kind of gave me advice on a time frame

Dave: and you were getting ready to head back home and we always like to get a go to the watering hole before we we left. I said, Dave, I just I gotta roll something out, man. I need I just need your advice. Man, you were great. And and in fact you kinda gave me advice on a time frame.

James Book: that was better than what I was looking at. And I and I will tell you that that that encouragement, that coaching meant a lot, you know. And you know, I so I thought, well, if if it meant a lot to me, I'm no different than

Dave: that was better than what I was looking at. And I and I will tell you that that that encouragement, that coaching meant a lot, you know. And, you know, I so I thought, well, if if it meant a lot to me, I'm no different than

James Book: other preachers, you just gotta have that. And you don't need many. I I think one is is a good place to start. And if you've got one good friend, I got a call from a great preacher. This guy's killing his associate minister in Kentucky. He's like, Jim,

Dave: other preachers. You just gotta have that. And and you don't need many. I I think one is is a good place to start. And if you've got one good friend, I got a call from a great preacher. This guy's killing his associate minister in Kentucky. He's like, Jim

James Book: do you know of someone who could mentor me that's an hour and a half from my church? And I said, do I? And it's CJ. So I quickly tested Texas CJ. I said, look, I didn't go into I didn't elaborate, but I I I was if he'd said no, I would have strangled him.

Dave: Do you know of someone who could mentor me that's an hour and a half from my church? And I said, Do I? And it's CJ. So I quickly tested Texas CJ. I said, look, I didn't go into I didn't elaborate, but I I was if he'd said no, I would have strangled him. I I wanna was gonna tell him, God has blessed you. You're an encourager, you're setting, you're blazing a trail from medium to small churches. I got a guy who needs you to pour into him because others have poured into you. And I didn't have to go into that.

James Book: I I wanna was gonna tell him God has blessed you. You're an encourager, you're set, you're blazing a trail for medium to small churches. I got a guy who needs you to pour into him because others have poured into you. And I didn't have to go into that because

Dave: 'Cause he's like, Absolutely, Jim. So I texted the preacher. I said, My friend, I have someone who is within an hour and a half from you. If you can glean from him anything, do it. He will you will not regret it. And,

James Book: he's like, absolutely, Jim. So I texted the preacher. I said, My friend, I have someone who is within an hour and a half from you. If you can glean from him anything, do it. He will, you will not regret it. And You know, I don't my job isn't to make sure CJ's calendar is full of with preachers he can pour into, but you know what? That's why God has blessed so many of us, so we can bless others. So thank you. That's what I I I say all that to thank you.

Dave: you know, I don't my job isn't to make sure CJ's calendar is full of with preachers he can pour into. But you know what? That's why God has blessed so many of us, so we can bless others. Yeah. So thank you. That's what I I I say all that to thank you. Well it was prime prime time in your life and prime time for the CRA and I think the Brotherhood is blessed because of that move and and really grateful that you're able to take on the role that you have. so Jim when when we look through scripture and we see some incredible examples examples of these partnerships. Even Jesus and Peter had a very

James Book: Yes.

Dave: unique relationship. obviously Jesus and John the Baptist, but John the Apostle also and then into The book of Acts with Paul and and Barnabas and then later Paul Timothy, Paul Titus. what are some keys for men that are in those mentoring relationships

James Book: So all these

Dave: that they need to keep in mind as they're mentoring younger people along the way toward spiritual maturity and growth within the church? I I think that the

James Book: I I think that the is if especially the senior level guys with experience, the guys who have some years behind them, some stories that can you know, and some wounds. Sometimes the wounds speak better than the victories. I I I would encourage you always have someone that you're pouring into, especially the older you get. If you're a senior level guy

Dave: Is it especially the senior level guys with experience, the guys who have some years behind them, some stories that can you know, and some wounds. Sometimes the wounds speak better than the victories. I I would encourage you always have someone that you're pouring into, especially the older you get. If you're a senior level guy

James Book: with tremendous history, great victories and challenges and defeats, and you don't have one preacher that you're loving on and encouraging.

Dave: with tremendous history, great victories and challenges and defeats, and you don't have one preacher that you're loving on and encouraging.

James Book: As soon as this podcast is over, pick up the phone and call him and say, hey, let's get together once a week. Let's get together once a month. And I was talking to an elder last week and he said, you know, our preacher's young and he's great, but he doesn't have any preacher to pour into. Or he doesn't have anybody pour into him.

Dave: As soon as this podcast is over, pick up the phone and call him and say, Hey, let's get together once a week. Let's get together once a month. And I was talking to an elder last week and he said, You know, our preacher's young and he's great, but he doesn't have any preacher to pour into. Or he doesn't have anybody pour into him.

James Book: And I thought, man, that's so sad. I mean, come on. Are we that isolated? So I'm gonna be up with them in a couple of weeks and I'm gonna say, hey, look, if you can't find someone, that's fine.

Dave: And I thought, Man, that's so sad. I mean, come on. Are we that isolated? So, I'm gonna be up with him in a couple of weeks and I'm gonna say, Hey, look, if you can't find someone that's fine.

James Book: Here's my email, here's my phone, you call me and we'll work together and then we'll we'll see what what's out there. But I I just I know a lot of guys would be far more successful if they had someone older than them that they could call. But I would encourage our older guys, more seasoned guys, pour into somebody.

Dave: Here's my email, here's my phone, you call me and we'll work together and then we'll we'll see what what's out there. But I I just I know a lot of guys would be far more successful if they had someone older than them that they could call. But I would encourage our older guys, more seasoned guys, pour into somebody.

James Book: Don't drift through life without sharing your story, especially with the guys coming up.

Dave: Don't drift through life without sharing your story, especially with the guys coming up.

James Book: You know, one thing I try to do, Dave, is I always keep in touch with our graduates at Advanced Center for Ministry Training. When they get into a church, I rarely go a week, or at least every other week, emailing them, how's it going? Well, I'm praying for you every day. I mean, I got my prayer journal, and our our our graduates are in here and I'm praying for them binding. And I want them to know I don't care where you are in ministry, how far we are.

Dave: You one thing I try to do, Dave, is I always keep in touch with our graduates at Advanced Center for Ministry Training. When they get into a church, I I rarely go a week or at least every other week emailing them. How's it going? Well I'm praying for you every day. I mean, I got my prayer journal and our our our graduates are in here and I'm praying for them binding and I want them to know I don't care where you are in ministry, how far we are

James Book: physically part, I'm an email, a phone call, a text away. Now I'm not

Dave: physically apart, I'm an email, a phone call, a text away. Now I'm not

James Book: saying that so I can, you know, have a plaque made for me. I just, I just know what it meant for me when older guys would call me up and go, hey Jim, I'm just I'm praying for him thinking of you. It's like, you're thinking of me? Wow, thanks. And I thought, Jim, when you get to that point, then you need to do the same thing. So that's my encouragement to the older guys, the seasoned guys, go back and especially guys in your area.

Dave: Saying that so I can, you know, have a plaque made for me. I'm just I just know what it meant for me when older guys would call me up and go, hey Jim, I'm just I'm praying for him thinking of you. It's like, you're thinking of me? Wow, thanks. And I thought, Jim, when you get to that point, then you need to do the same thing. So that's my encouragement to the older guys, the seasoned guys, go back and especially guys in your area, you know, if you could meet them at for coffee, that would do so much for

James Book: You know, if you could meet them at for coffee, that would do so much for them.

Dave: them.