Rethinking Hell: The Fire That Refines

Welcome to the Kingdom Family Podcast, where

we rediscover our identity as sons and daughters

of Yahweh and learn to live the life of the Kingdom.

Let's jump in to today's episode. Welcome back.

Week four, Rethink and Hail. This week, we are

diving into fire in scripture. And I want you

to ask the question, is fire destroying? or is

fire refining? Think about that question. What

if, wrestle with this, what if fire in the Bible

is not primarily about destruction, because does

fire destroy things? Certainly. But fire also

purifies. So what if fire is not primarily about

destroying, but it's primarily about purification.

So just think about this as we go through this

episode. So we're going to talk about, let's

start with this. Let's talk about the fire as

God's presence first. And we'll start in, let's

start in Exodus chapter three, and we're going

to look at verses one through three. And it says,

one day Moses was tending the flock of his father

-in -law Jethro, the priest of the Midian. He

led the flock far into the wilderness and came

to Sinai, the mountain of God. There the angel

of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire

from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement.

Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it did

not burn up. This is amazing. Moses said to himself.

Why isn't the bush burning up? I must go see

it. So one thing that I learned just probably

if I had to put a time timetable on it It was

probably within the last two to three years When

looking at this story again is that it would

not have been uncommon in the desert for a bush

to catch fire that that would not have been what

would have gotten Moses' attention. That it was

not uncommon to see a bush with that heat in

the mountain because it's so dry. It was not

uncommon for a bush to just burst into flames

and burn down. But what got Moses' attention

was that though it was on fire, the bush remained.

Now think about that. Just think about that There

was and I will I cannot remember for the life

of me Who said it word? I remember I just know

there was a video that I saw several years ago

That talked about being on the altar And it said

God is our God is the only one who can kill you

and let you live simultaneously simultaneously

at the same time think about that in reference

to this story of this burning bush where the

bush is on fire which was not uncommon in those

days and from what I've understood it would not

be uncommon even in today's world in those types

of areas but what was uncommon and unnatural

was that this bush was on fire yet it refused

to be burned down So that's what caught Moses's

attention I believe and even says why isn't this

bush burning up? So it wasn't why is this bush

on fire? It was why is this bush not burning

up? So Moses in this in this story is encountering

God in a burning bush It just was not destroyed

So God's fire does not always destroy. Sometimes

it sustains while it is transforming. Think about

that. And I think that's important for us to

note when we consider verses like Hebrews 12

-29 that says, For our God is a holy devouring

fire. He is a consuming fire. So if God is a

fire, what? Is he consuming? That's important

for us to stop and ask these questions. Again,

that's a verse that I grew up hearing that our

God is a consuming fire. There are songs written

about this. But when do we stop and ask the question?

If he is a consuming fire, what is he consuming?

Maybe he's consuming our false self. Maybe he's

consuming our false identities. Maybe he's consuming

anything that is false, anything that is corrupt,

anything that is destructive. Maybe that is what

his fire is actually aimed at destroying. And

while destroying that, he is purifying us. Let

that sink in. Fire you see fire is a refining

process Malachi chapter 3 Verses 2 & 3 says but

Malachi 3:2

who can endure the day of his coming? Who will

not fall down and worship when the Lord is unveiled?

For he will carry out a purifying process He

will be like a refining up pay attention to the

language here. He will be like a refiner's fire

So we'll read you just some notes here from that

verse out of the passion translation and it says

this This purifying process is described by means

of two similes, likening the messenger to a refiner's

fire and a launderer's bleach. The image of a

refiner's fire is taken from the process of the

melting and the heating of metal in a furnace

to purify or refine it. As the metal is melted,

the impurities either burn away or come to the

surface where they can be skimmed off. So think

about the scripture here uses silver you can

even consider gold They put what do they put

these things in they put them into fire They

expose them to heat why to remove the impurities

so that the the more Impurities that are moved

the pure the substance is So when this gold is

in and understand this When those are purities

are removed what is left is what the gold has

been all along I catch that So when that fire

when that gold is exposed to the fire and exposed

to that measure of heat it pulls out the impurity

so again either either they Burn away, or they

come to the surface so that whoever's doing this

can can skim those impurities off of that Think

about this because this is important apply it

to our own life The second image compares the

messenger with launderers bleach And which were

referred to a powerful chemical agent with a

strong cleansing effect that is similar to live

It is thus best described not as soap, but rather

as a much harsher cleanser such as bleach or

lime. So there's a deliberate wordplay with the

word for covenant and the word for launderers

bleach that is lost in translation. Just important

for us to understand. I'm trying to go through

some of these notes. A lot of this is not really

important to this. Washing cloth in this cleanser

was an effective way of removing greasy and oily

stains. Jesus has come to set this purifying

fire in our hearts and to cleanse us from the

deepest stain of sin and shame. I know we're

talking about fire, but it's important to make

note here. anybody who's ever washed any clothes,

for example, that have oil stains or some sort

of grease. Many times you have to add additional

some some sort of additional cleaning agent because

it's a harsher. I don't know the proper terms

for this, but there's a harsher item substance

on these clothes that needs something more than

just your regular laundry detergent. They need

something extra. There to be able to be scrubbed

out so they can come back to be clean. I hope

that makes sense for you Just remember the fire

part is what we're focused on he's a refining

fire Again when gold is refined think about when

silver is refined fire removes impurities Gold

remains. And here's the thing. The more impurities

that are removed, the value of that gold increases.

So fire reveals what is true by removing what

is false. God's fire is not about some sort of

revenge. God's fire is about restoration. That's

important. Then we have first Corinthians chapter

1 Corinthians 3 · chapter mention

3 and we're going to start in verse 12 It says

the quality of materials used by anyone building

on this foundation Will soon be made apparent

whether it has been built with gold silver and

costly stones or wood hay and straw Their work

will soon become evident for the day will make

it clear because it would be revealed by blazing

fire and the fire will test improve the workmanship

of each builder If his work stands the test of

the fire, he will be rewarded. If his work is

consumed by the fire, he will suffer great loss,

yet he himself will barely escape destruction

like one being rescued out of a burning house.

So again here Paul is using Paul's language seems

to be anticipating his next subject, which is

the church as God's true temple. There is Dr.

Simmons would say there is here an allusion to

the temple of Solomon which was built using gold

silver and costly stones Wisdom will build her

house with divine substance gold Redemption's

fruit which is silver and transfer transformed

lives Which are costly stones? Wood hay and straw

are emblems of the works of the flesh the building

materials of men not of God They grow up from

the ground which God cursed. It is both quality

and durability that God commands. Fire will cause

the better material to glow brighter, but the

inferior material will be consumed. How we build

matters to God. Note that it is possible to build

on the true foundation of Christ, but with wrong

materials. We need God's work done in God's way.

Also have here, I'm going to read the mirror

translation or the mirror paraphrase out of First

Corinthians 312. It says, imagine the contrast

in building materials, one build with gold and

silver and precious stones, while another uses

wood, hay and stubble. And Francois Dutoy would

say, by comparison, the teaching of the cross

and its glorious effect in the believer's life

is like building with gold, silver, and precious

stones. Whereas the wisdom of this world system

based upon religious good works and not faith

is like building with wood, hay, and stubble,

which is nothing but fuel for the fire. So the

fire will test what kind of work each person

has done. Again, another important distinction

for us to pay attention to. It is works that

burn and people that remain. Scripture clearly

shows us that the work is burned, but the person

is saved. That's something for us to strongly

consider and to wrestle with in our modern day

understanding of hell. Then we can look at Isaiah

Isaiah 33:14–15

chapter 33, verses 14 through 15. And it says

sinners in Zion are afraid and the godless are

gripped with panic saying who can dwell with

such an all -consuming fire? Who can live in

the presence of the never -ending flank? Only

those who walk with integrity and speak what

is true. Who despise even the thought of cheating

the poor and do not accept a bribe nor plot violence

nor talk nor contemplate doing evil again When

I first read this verse I began to notice something

and I had to stop and think Because we are taught

that who burns in this flame in this eternal

fire It's the wicked. It's the ones who never

repeated the prayer and never had a relationship.

But if you look at what Isaiah is saying here

in chapter 33 verse 14 and 15, who can dwell

with such an all consuming fire and who can live

in the presence of the never ending flame? Only

those who walk with integrity and speak what

is true. Think about that. I have this note here.

The Hebrew word for sin here fundamentally means

to miss the mark. Ask the question. Let me see

this. Did I put the wrong notes in this? No,

so the Hebrew word for sin here fundamentally

fundamentally means to miss the mark. Ask the

question. What is the mark? Ask the question.

Ask yourself the question. What is the mark?

Genesis answers that humanity Genesis answers

that humanity was created in the image and likeness

of God. So from that perspective, sin is more

than breaking rules. It is living beneath or

contrary to the reality of who God has created

us to be. It is the failing to live in alignment

with our true vocation as God's image bearers.

So remember, actions flow from what we believe

about ourselves. So if we believe a lie about

who we are, we will inevitably miss the mark

in how we live. So just because we talked about

sinners and Zion are afraid, I want you to understand

what sin is again. But who can dwell with such

an all -consuming fire? Who can live in the presence

of the never -ending flame? Only those who walk

with integrity and speak what is true. How do

you begin to walk with integrity and speak what

is true? You begin to discover that you are God's

image bearer. You are a son or daughter of the

Most High. You've never been separated from Him.

You are as, and I know this is going to sound

like heresy here, but I want you to understand

and grab hold of it, that you are as righteous

as God. You are as holy as God. Why? Because

of what Christ did and now the Holy Spirit has

come to and dwell within you. You are now joined

into union with the Trinity. And so because of

that, you and I can dwell with this all -consuming

flame. We can live in the presence of a never

-ending flame. Why? Because we're divorcing ourselves

from this distorted identity. And we're stepping

into who we actually are as a child of God, as

a son of Yahweh. We're allowing the fire in our

life to become restorative and purify us instead

of to destroy us. We're allowing the fire to

destroy everything in us that does not look like

God. Man, this is good. So fire imagery, it represents

exposure. It represents purification. It represents

justice, but it never never seems to represent

endless torture, at least the way that I'm reading

this. Pay attention to the story in Isaiah. Who's

living in the presence of the never -ending flame

and dwelling in the all -consuming fire? It's

not the wicked who never repeated the prayer.

It's the one who has integrity, the one who speaks

truth. That is the one who's able to live there.

Boy Then we have I'm not going to go through

the whole story You can go read it later. You

grew up in church. You probably know it. We got

Daniel chapter 3 with the fiery furnace You know

Daniel 3 · chapter mention

the story As a riot had an eye on Michelle and

what you would commonly hear to refer to Shadrach,

Meshach and Abednego I was convicted several

years ago to not call them that That was their

Babylonian names and though they were placed

into Babylon, Babylon never got into them. That's

another message all in itself. You can be removed

from Exodus but yet Exodus still remain in you.

So I will not call them by their Babylonian names

because they never identified in the place of

Babylon. So they were forever Hananiah, Azariah,

and Mishael. That was their Hebrew names that

was given to them, not Shadrach, Meshach, and

Abednego. That was their Babylonian names. But

when they were told that you must bow when you

hear the music played up, and they refused to,

what happens? They're thrown into this fiery

furnace. Who is thrown into the fire? The ones

who... were obedient the ones who were go back

to Isaiah the ones who were walking with integrity

and speaking what is true they were the ones

thrown into a fire that was heated up seven times

hotter that even killed the ones throwing in

and when they're thrown into the fire there's

a conversation that begins to happen of hey um

How many men are in the fire because I know I

just threw in three But now I see four men and

the fourth is likened to the son of God Now that's

a whole That they could be a whole podcast episode

just talking about that story, but I just want

you to understand that these three Hebrew boys

are the ones who entered the fire. They were

not destroyed, but they were preserved. And guess

what? God was present in the middle of the fire.

Now do I know if they knew that he was there?

Did they see him? I don't know, but everybody

else sure did. Fire did not destroy them. Fire

revealed God's presence. Just important for us

to wrap our minds around. So again, just to repeat

what has been said previously, fire in scripture

often times symbolizes judgment. But judgment

is not always punishment. It's purification.

Again, I know I've said this repeatedly on previous

episodes. If you want to know what God is like

as judge, we have a book in the Old Testament

that's called Judges. Maybe we should read it.

The purpose of God's fire is never at least again

from what I've read The purpose of God's fire

is not some kind of endless suffering, but it's

about transformation Transformation it's about

bringing you out as pure gold So God's fire is

not his anger running wild it's not his his wrath

being poured out His fire is His love refusing

to leave us unchanged. Why? Because fire removes

what harms us so that what is true can remain.

Now I'm telling you, this is good news the more

that you let this begin to be settled within

you. Because, you know, up until just a few years

ago I would probably say that fire is destructive.

But even you can go look at the science even

have how even when there are wildfires, that

yes, it can be destructive, but it's also purifying

and it's also restorative. There's a restorative

nature to a fire. There's a purifying process.

Can it be destructive? Certainly, I'm not taking

that away. But the important question for us

to ask as sons and daughters when reading the

scripture, and considering the nature of God,

is what is His fire destroying? It destroys the

false self. Anything that is false in you, that's

what it's coming to destroy. Just like His judgment

is never aimed at you and I. His judgment is

aimed at whatever interferes between us and love

Now can that sometimes feel like it's come against

us certainly, but it's never that's why you have

to know It's not aimed at me as the son or daughter

It's good news I'm telling you so this episode

again another short one we discovered that fire

in scripture is more about refining and purifying.

Listen, I'm sure I'm just giving you a broad

overview. I am certain you can go nosedive into

a lot of these places and get more treasure and

more stuff, but I'm not trying to do that. I'm

just trying to, again, get you to rethink hell.

You take this journey. You go read some of this

on your own and go see what you come up with,

what the Holy Spirit speaks to you. This is just

about to give you a different perspective and

giving you permission to think differently than

what we've grown up here, especially in the West.

So just... Just think about that. I hope this

is helping you. Again, as I said last week, drop

a comment, leave a review. Let me know where

you're listening from. Is this doing anything

for you? Do you wish I would just shut up and

move on with life? Not going to happen. I enjoy

doing this. I enjoy releasing these. So my friend,

till next time, be blessed. Live the life of

the kingdom. operate in who you are as a son

and daughter of God. Remember, you are an image

bearer to the world around you. So release the

kingdom from within you. Be blessed. Thanks for

spending some time with me today on the kingdom

family podcast. If this episode spoke to you,

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time, live love, live free, and live from the

life of the Kingdom.