Beyond The Message: Following Jesus In Public Life

Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday's sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.

Welcome back to Beyond the Message.

Today I'm joined by Pastor Grunt Harris, who preached on Sunday.

And on Sunday, we kicked off our new series, Political Disciples Following Jesus in Public Life.

And we're really excited about this series.

We kind of gave you a heads up that it was coming.

And with uh the election coming up, I know it's an interesting thing to be talking about.

Um, but we really believe, especially in the subtitle of um this series, Following Jesus in Public Life.

So this series is far more than just a conversation on who we might vote for.

And Grant explicitly said in his message that we're not going to tell you who to vote for, we're not starting a Windsor Park party.

Hopefully you've got my revised text with not in it.

Between the two of us, we managed to miss a slight typo there.

Uh if you if you did see the original one, but we won't be telling you who to vote for.

Um, but we are hoping that this series helps us think Christianly about politics in the broadest sense.

So more than just um state politics, but politics in terms of how humans organize their lives together.

And we're going to talk a bit about that.

In week one of our series, Grant asked us what is shaping our politics.

Uh, and you drew on Jeremiah 29.

And I love that phrase faithful presence.

Uh, not talking about withdrawing from the place that we live and hiding away uh and not being swept up in it, but being faithful and being present, um, and that phrase of seeking this shalom of the city in which we live.

Um, and what does it mean for us to do that in Auckland?

So it was a great way to kick off our series.

Anything more you want to say, particularly around that first message, Grant?

Yeah, I think it was well, I hope it was a good introduction to what we're talking about, and I think you make a really good point that is valid for us.

Whilst we are talking about politics, we're talking about it in a very wide sense.

And obviously, we think with the general election coming up and all the politicking going on in ATRO at the moment, we're thinking about that.

But it is the biggest sense of we are all involved in political environments.

I was talking to someone yesterday about this coming out of Sunday, and they work for a Christian organization that's going through a little bit of reshaping, and they're like, oh, people.

And I said, politics.

Like, yeah, it is politics.

Of course it is, because we organize ourselves in a range of different ways.

So I think that's the biggest point to sort of re-emphasize is whether we like it or not, we all live in political environments, and so thinking about how we live in that space and I guess how we purposefully live.

I think that was the beauty of the Jeremiah passage.

These people were told by God, this is how I want you to live.

Um, so when we accept that we're in those environments, then the series kind of comes to life, and we have to think.

So, what does that mean for us now?

Yeah.

And again, that tagline for our series is following Jesus in public life.

Yeah.

And I thought as we kick off our discussion today, it'd be great to hear from you, you know, what do we mean by public life and and how is it perhaps different from what we might call our private lives?

Yeah.

Well, I think often we talk about spirituality and we think about our prayer life, we think about our quiet times in the morning, or we think about what podcasts we listen to in the car, or whatever it might be.

But this is purposely about, and look, this is a big part of what Windsor Park is about.

You know, our vision statement is building stronger communities by putting our faith into action.

So that's all around how do we live in the environments that are public-facing.

And if you look at our emphasis that we have built into who we are here at Windsor, it's always about what does faith look like on the street?

So, for those that are involved in leadership positions, for example, in our societies, what does it mean to be a leader in that?

Or I think of my own daughter who's a school teacher.

What does it mean to be a teacher and to be a Christian?

And what does that look like?

For those of us that are, you know, in whatever environment, so what does it mean for us to be a Christian in our interactions with people?

So we have our private spirituality, spiritual practices, we talk about those a lot, prayer, all good stuff.

I guess this is the application of that.

So what does that mean?

What what difference does that make when we are in conflict at work?

Uh, what does that mean when we are in an organization, you know, like our uh kindies or something like that?

And it's like, oh, there's some politics at play here.

What attitude do I have?

How do I love people that are irking me?

Um, so yeah, what what is the public facing of our Christianity?

Yeah.

I mean, I think I use that line.

We're Christians who need to continue to learn to think Christianly.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, what does that mean in our conversations and our in our attitudes and in our actions?

Yeah, I've kind of been having a few conversations about people, particularly with young adults, around this series and trying to clarify what it is and what it isn't.

And that public life thing, um, yeah, I agree.

And I think we we have focused on both.

We we talk about spiritual formation, you know, things like prayer or solitude or um meditation or or whatever that can feed your private life, your own thing.

But then when you step out your front door, what does it mean to kind of carry that?

Because you're then into the world and into society, or maybe actually these days, just on your phone, you can be involved in public life as you're engaging um with online.

But um, you know, you've had a a wide range of experiences in in your time, you know, working in church, working outside in the secular world before that, um, and even while you've been a pastor, you've been involved in various different contexts.

Maybe drawing from some of that, are there any particular stories or um spaces that you've engaged in public life that you want to draw that out?

Because I think it'd be helpful for us to hear that actually, even someone who's a senior pastor is engaging in public life.

Yeah, I mean, I can think of so many different examples, but uh two that I'll mention specifically.

One when I was uh going through my change in life um from a banker to being a pastor.

I remember my last week at work, um, and I was in Westback City office in Wellington, and I was in a little desk of four of us, and it was maybe my last day, and there was one guy, just me and him sitting at the office, and I remember him saying to me, I'm really jealous of you.

And I was like, Why are you jealous of me?

At that point, I was leaving the bank, we were gonna go to Carrie, so it'd become students with children, and it was like, ugh, freaking out.

Um, and he said, You know, you're following your heart.

And he said, I I can't do that.

I'm kind of trapped because I have to provide for my family, I have to do all this.

And I remember having a chat to him about what that meant for me to be following my heart and you know, a calling, a sense from God that this is what he wanted for me.

And I just remember finishing work, you know, walking out, I was kind of looking at him thinking, Ah, I feel really sorry for you.

Um, I really want to pray for you.

Um, and we just had this discussion about faith.

And I have no clue where he went to in life from there.

But for me, it was like it was a great chance to talk about, I guess, my faith and what it meant for a change in my life.

Uh, a number of years later, when I was pastoring in New Plymouth, I I became chair of our primary school board of trustees.

Um, if you know me, you'll know I'm keen for Christians to be involved in all these spaces, public spaces.

This is what the series is about.

I love it.

I'm always encouraging people to be uh on the boards of trustees of their kids' schools, if that's kind of where God leads you.

Um anyway, I ended up becoming chair at uh Puki Tapu School, which was the neighboring school to our church, close to where we lived.

And we had a couple of other people in the church uh on the board as well.

Do we stack it?

Maybe.

But our principal didn't really like Bible in schools.

Um, he wasn't a Christian, he wasn't overly keen on it.

Um, but it's really it's at the discretion of the board of trustees how Bible in schools works because that's again, it's a governance environment, it's a political environment here in New Zealand.

And as chair, I was able to say, are we all still good with Bible in schools?

And I could see the principal who I got on well with, yeah.

I could see him kind of not really, but we had you know several other Christians on the board.

Yep, we're good with Bible in schools.

Oh yeah, and the Bible in schools continued in that school, and you know, we were conscious of that.

Joe was leading Bible in schools at that point in the school.

So look, you've got to do that well, you've got to do that sensitively, but I guess that was an environment in a governance environment where I guess influence came to play in a positive way.

Um, and you're able to sort of drive that into that school.

I don't know where it went since we've left there, but I think they're still involved there.

And in fact, I know they have a 24-7 worker still at that school.

Oh, okay.

Um, so I guess for me, that was an early example for me where being involved around a table in the public space was able to help, I guess, the narrative of Christianity stay strong in that particular environment.

Um and I guess I've probably got lots of examples like that, but I think of that one, you know, where I was going for my career transition and that one in that public space and plenty since.

Obviously, most people will know I was chaplain to the breakers for a dozen years.

Um, and I think in that space I always felt God saying to me, your role was just to represent me, um, just to just to be my hands and my feet.

And I always thought if I achieved nothing else in that space, it was about if those players in that organization knew that I was a Christian, which I did, knew that I was a pastor, yeah, and thought that I was okay.

I'm I can talk to this guy, he's all right.

Yeah.

Um, and change perceptions perhaps around what they often saw in the public, um, then I thought that was a good space.

So look, I'm I'm all over this being Christians in public spaces.

I get it right sometimes, I get it wrong sometimes.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh uh lots to think about there, but I love that both of those you've given kind of a personal example that was more your own journey and a conversation with one person.

And I love that there was kind of that longing almost that you described of your co-worker to like there was almost an envy of you following the calling.

Yeah, um, and we'll talk about that later in the series when it comes to kind of the attractiveness of Christian life done well, which makes those who don't follow Jesus kind of envious, and that's like a personal example, yeah.

But then the policy side of it as well, and the governance and actually being able to shape the way a school operates.

Um helpful examples.

Uh, thank you, Grant.

Uh and we have uh actually quite a few questions come in from week one of this series.

So uh we'll launch into those.

Yeah.

Is that okay?

Yeah, yeah.

Uh so the first one says that a section of Sunday's sermon stated, God has not lost control.

Um, the question is, what does God actually control?

Uh does he control who will get elected at the next general election?

And how does God's control work with the gift of free will he has given us?

Yeah, no, that's a simple question to answer in a couple of seconds.

Um, that's a really big question, but it really dives into that bigger picture of throughout the Psalms, and this will be a premise of the series, this is what Michael will bring in this week, I think.

Um, the psalms repeatedly say the Lord reigns.

Um and we sing it in our songs.

We had a couple of songs on Sunday deliberately that talks about God reigning.

Um, and so our language that we often use is yeah, the Lord reigns, he's in control, he's the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

Um, and you know, we say that, that's part of our kind of language.

We see it repeatedly through scripture, and then we say to ourselves, well, what about this world?

Yeah, sheesh, if he reigns, if he's in control, then everything seems a bit out of control.

And this is one of the greatest narratives of the whole Bible.

And to be honest, that sort of question just touches on one of the biggest questions that repeatedly comes up for people.

If God is God, why is this happening?

Why does stuff happen in our world?

Why do governments get elected the way that they do?

You know, why do things happen the way in the national scene if God is really in control?

And it's really just so embedded in scripture.

Like one of my favorite things in scripture is the themes.

So one of the great themes of scripture is that God is king, He He is there, and ultimately redemption will come.

This is what we call the now and the not yet all the time.

So God, right now, you might say He allows things to happen for whatever reason, and and there is no simple answer to that.

Um, we've all been around situations and tragedies, and we set now news where like, if God has control, why do these things happen?

Um so God is creator, um the world is broken because of sin.

Christ comes to show us the way, and he's constantly trying to pull us into that bigger picture, but there will be a full redemption when Christ comes back.

And I guess that was the point in Jeremiah 29 when God sort of says for 70 years.

Um and you know, you could argue, and people do, is that a figurative 70 years, or is he saying, I mean, seven and seventy are big numbers in the Bible?

Um, and again, it might just be pointing towards yes, I will come, I have a plan for you.

There will be redemption.

Um, I am in control.

Trust me in the midst of that suffering.

And I think in the midst of that, there is story after story throughout the Bible.

Joseph in the pit, Daniel in the lion's den, um, you know, Job, um, all of that kind of stuff.

And and so trusting that God reigns, I think, is one of the hardest parts of our inner spirituality.

How do we do that when we see pain around us?

Um, you know, for me it's it's coming into October.

Um, and October for me now is a date of memories.

My my brother died eight years ago in October, my dad died two years ago in October.

Um, and for my dad, uh, which is only two years ago, and he had dementia for a couple of years before that.

And look, I've said, God, I mean, dementia, come on, it it sucks, you know.

You lose someone before you lose someone.

Um, I've seen that with my own dad.

Um, and it's like, God, what is up with that?

Um, but you know, he was a man of faith, and I have no doubt his redemption is there um through death.

And so look, it's I think it's one of the greatest challenges for us to get our heads around as followers of Jesus, particularly when we experience the pain.

But the narrative of the Bible is constant all the way through.

Creation groans in anticipation of the redemption of God.

Um, and and so I think that's one of the things that we can continue to learn.

Our free will dictates the world.

Um, we make free will decisions, God allows those decisions to be made.

Um, and we live in this liminal now context.

But it's coming.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's coming.

Yeah.

Um, and and like we have hope now.

Yeah, Jesus' kingdom is in your midst, has come among you.

Totally.

We can kind of sometimes see glimpses of it.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's Luke.

That's totally where we've been.

Um, but also the kingdom is fully, fully coming, and we we kind of have that like short-term hope, but also that that longer term hope.

And you're right, like Michael's Michael Rhodes, we're gonna be speaking this week coming, and that will be his kind of big theme of the Bible's political message is that the Lord reigns.

And he'll be particularly, I think, I don't know, I don't know what his words are gonna be, but um reading his book and knowing him.

Um he's gonna there's a lot of psalms, uh, and there's a lot of psalms of lament.

You know, the psalmist full of God, when will this finish?

Um, and the psalms are such a rich book because of that, and yet in the midst of that repeatedly, the Lord reigns.

Oh, good answer.

So uh I don't know if we've got to go out of two seconds.

I I would generally say to people, it it's a hard message, it it's a hard concept to understand.

It's one that we learn through life, through the ups, largely through the downs.

Yeah.

When we have to navigate pain and grief and uncertainty and the anxiety of the world and everything that we see around us.

But if we can get it that in the midst of that, the Lord reigns.

And I often say, What's what's the worst thing that can happen to me?

Um, well, it might be that I'm filling my car up with petrol and the petrol station explodes um and I die.

Is that the worst that could happen to me?

Probably.

But at that point, the Lord reigns.

I'm with them.

Where a death is your sting, as we often say at funerals.

Yeah.

Second question that we have today is um is more about examples, uh, and it says, I would be fascinated to hear more examples of ways that Christians have creatively sought the kingdom of God and have come up with an idea that trust transcended the political categories of the day.

Do you have any inspirational examples that spring to mind?

Yeah, I had to write them down because this is what I love.

Um, I remember I've spoken a few times at Christmas on Christmas Day, uh, you know, when you get a lot of people that maybe aren't followers of Jesus totally at church, and I'm always like, I love to talk about the difference that Christianity has made in people's lives to the ways in which they've changed the world.

Um, and the lists are extensive.

Um, and you go back to the Middle Ages, and that's when kind of monastic orders started coming about.

That's when monks kind of started doing some some good stuff.

Um, interestingly, I mentioned this one Christmas, it was actually a monk um that invented champagne.

Yeah.

So some good things came out of that as well.

Um, and then you know, I guess in modern times you look at organizations, I think this is this is great, but there are challenges that come with it.

The YMCA started in 1844 in London, um, and it was the Young Men's Christian Association.

It was to bring development and aid, particularly to men that were kind of marginalized at the time.

So organizations like that came about.

And then over the last, you know, a hundred years or so, it's just a proliferation of organizations that have been grounded because of people's Christian convictions.

People wanting the kingdom of God to come to people's lives.

I think of World Vision as an example.

I mean, World Vision is one of the biggest aid organizations in the world.

Christian has turnover about US$3 billion.

It's in a hundred countries.

Um, it's a Christian response to the needs, predominantly, of the marginalized.

I think that's awesome.

I mean, I talk about Tier Fund in New Zealand.

It's pretty small in comparison, but it's uh its partner organization, Compassion International, is again, it came out of a Christian heartbeat.

Um, the founders, it's still very Christian, about US$1 billion turnover globally going into helping marginalized hurting people.

I love all that.

Um, International Justice Ministries is an organization that I've followed for years.

I came across them when I was up in India at one point.

Um, they are an organization that seeks to protect people who are in poverty from violence, from slavery, and from human trafficking.

Um, and I've often said to young people here at Windsor that are training uh for law degrees I'm like, IJM needs you.

Um we need young Christian lawyers in those organizations.

Um and this is this the speciality of calling.

I'm kind of like was that in a Christian founded IGM?

Yeah, it is Christian founded.