BTS: Why we're not pastor centric

What's up everybody?

This is episode four of His Hands Church behind the scenes remix.

The Rocumentary.

The Rocumentary.

I keep trying to change the name, like spice it up.

I don't think it needs to be spiced up.

I don't think it need I don't think this is about spice.

Does that make sense?

Like spice.

You know what I'm talking about?

Like spice in this analogy is you gotta chime in, man.

You're just looking at it.

That's because anything I think of, I'm like, no, that's not appropriate to make a joke about right now.

What kind of inappropriate spice jokes are those?

We don't want to we don't need to wander into the depths that are Nathan's mind.

Coriander?

Is that a spice?

That's coriander.

Yeah, coriander is a spice.

Cumin is a spice.

Chili?

Chili?

Chili spice.

That's one of my favorite spices.

Yeah.

Paprika, oregano.

Can we start this over?

No, I want to keep this.

I want this to stay.

We're not trying to, we're not trying to make this.

This isn't this isn't some spiced up flash in the pan uh podcast.

It's turning into a Bobby Flay show right now.

Yeah, this is we're this is all about getting real and uh making you know.

Um if you're if this is your first time ever listening to this, um we're sorry.

I'm not sorry.

Justin's not sorry.

Why would I be sorry?

I think I'm having fun.

Um don't speak, don't you speak for me.

Don't put words in my mouth.

So I'm I'm Justin.

This is my good for Nathan.

I was gonna introduce you.

Oh.

I talk over you.

That's how this starts every time.

That's how it starts and how it ends.

That's true.

I'm sorry.

I'm working on it.

Let's just do this again.

I'm Justin.

I'm Nathan.

And we both uh help lead His Hands Church, uh, which we're we've been part of for about a decade.

Um we play different roles.

We've played a lot of roles over the years.

Yeah.

And uh now we're kind of in the lead roles.

Not really kind of, we are, and uh with some other people that help us out a ton and do a lot of big things too.

So we do this podcast uh for a very specific reason.

The behind-the-scenes stuff is about us pulling the curtain back and giving you a behind-the-scenes look at his hands and why we do things the way we do things.

Obviously, this is kind of for a specific audience, uh mainly the people that are part of his hands church that want to really understand our culture and what it is we value.

Uh, but but honestly, if you're part of a of a different church, it's always good to get a different perspective.

It's always interesting to see to not just see what people are doing, but why they're doing it.

And that's something we're really passionate about here, not just the things we're doing, but the reason behind them.

Because if we don't have a reason to do it, why are we doing it?

That's right.

So we we we want this this podcast, these behind the scenes episodes, to be a chance for us to pull that curtain back and give you the why behind what we do.

So every episode we just take a question, a question that we either get asked a lot or a question that's kind of a clarifier for some things that we value, and we just put it out there and we talk about it, and we have not practiced, or this is not scripted, and you will definitely be able to tell.

You can tell, but that's okay.

Yep, you can.

Um so here we go.

Question of the the moment is why aren't we a pastor-centric church?

Okay, which is kind of a a specific phrase that we use, that whole phrase pastor-centric.

Yeah, but we'll say that we're not a pastor-centric church.

What do we mean by that?

Why is that important?

And honestly, as the person who is in that role as the the quote unquote pastor of his hands church, why aren't we a pastor-centric church?

Because you know, I mean Do you really want that?

I don't know.

Do I?

What goes is there a what do you what do you get out of being a pastor centric church?

Is there you get like a membership card or like that gives you discounts at the There's no company car, doesn't come with a pay raise.

Some churches have a company car.

Let's just be honest.

Oh, I was just talking about S.

Oh, okay, good.

Yeah, I mean I mean I don't know what other churches are.

What about a golf cart?

What if what if I didn't get a car, but just like a golf cart.

We did have electric scooters for a minute.

Yeah, but that was awesome.

Just around the inside of the building, but our insurance company was basic basically pretty firm.

Like, no, you can't you can't have your employees riding electric scooters around your building.

So if you've never been to let's give some context to that, and then we'll actually get to the to the the the nitty-gritty stuff.

So um our building used to be a Kmart, a super Kmart.

And uh and so it's a pretty big building.

Yeah.

And back in the early days, when I first got got hired here to work with youth, uh, the office is on the complete opposite side of the building from all the youth stuff.

Yeah.

And it's it's a I mean by it's a decent walk, it's probably like three and a half to five minutes.

But if there is an electric scooter that's just there, yeah, by all means, do it.

And so when I started here, you guys were all on these electric scooters, and I was like, okay, I gotta, but I was kind of nervous about those because Oh really?

Well, I've never I've never did um never done a motorcycle before.

Um I never did like scooters and I was I did like basketball and baseball.

I never did stuff on wheels, and so I can rollerblade and some stuff like that, but those things went fast.

They were not no, they were fast electric scooters.

Yeah, so I would I would sort of because I wanted to be part of the team, I would jump on one if people were going somewhere, and I would just be terrified the whole time.

Oh I was and it and I ended up uh wiping out one time really bad on one, like really bad, and it went into a wall and completely took this whole chunk of a wall out with it.

And so after that, I was I was less well.

Don't look at me with with pity.

I mean No, like I'm survived.

Sorry.

That's but you weren't the only person that happened to either.

I mean, I I had a couple spills on the electric scooters, and one time Katie, my wife, before we were married, Katie, like it was the weekend we had gotten the scooters.

Yeah.

And uh Katie was riding one down the hall.

We were like, oh, this is so cool.

I was like, Katie, ride one.

So she gets on.

She's coming around a corner, and then had to take, you know, if you're coming from the main hallway, yeah, and you hang left to go towards the arena where the high school and junior high meet, and you take a right onto their highway, their hallway to get to the lobby.

That's it.

I'm totally locked in.

It's that last right turn.

Pretty sharp.

She was trying to make that turn, but she was coming in way too hot.

And she she kind of stepped off and she was okay, but the scooter just kept going, and it was like it was like a wreck on NASCAR.

Why?

Like it flew up into the wall.

I was 23 when I got hired here.

So now I'm 33.

I'm I'm much older and wiser.

Uh and no, I am.

You are.

You are and and so I'm just trying to think through whose idea was it to get electric scooters?

And in what world is that ever a good idea?

Like in what work environment would be like, you know what would make this place way better and more efficient?

I know what it is.

Really fast scooters that I think at the time, like that was a big Google was really getting huge.

Okay.

Like as a company, they were already like they had finally become the number one search engine, but that was still pretty recent.

Yeah.

When there were other search engines, yeah, there had been like Jeeves and Yachts.

Like people.

Anytime I have a device and it and obviously Microsoft is involved, and so Bing is the the go-to.

Like it's green.

So I'm like, what?

I don't Google.

So Google, they were becoming the huge thing, and one of the things they were famous for their corporate culture was like super like goofy and like fun and ping pong tables and stuff.

But one of the things they did is every office had at least one electric scooter.

And so I think it was just like a.

If you were to Google, wouldn't you just email somebody if you needed them to know something?

Isn't there like where were they running like here?

Take this memo to the to the vice president.

All right, helping your scooter go.

I'm just looking at it from a perspective of going.

It was just a thing.

It was a trend for a moment.

Could this go poorly?

And it it didn't.

It did pretty consistently.

And so I think that's why there aren't a lot of electric scooters at offices in 2017.

Oh man, this this is not the way I saw this conversation going.

Um, not at all.

But I think we've all learned a lot about scooters.

Scooters.

And if you if you're maybe, maybe this is a God thing.

Maybe you're listening to this, and just right now you've been thinking to yourself, do I need to go purchase a fast, high speed, which is just another way to say fast, uh, electric scooter for my office or workplace.

And we're just telling you from experience, no, yeah, don't do that.

Don't do it.

It's not worth it.

Yeah, I almost died.

So, to answer your question, no, no scooter, no car, no, no, really no perks.

Okay, so in all seriousness, we're really passionate about not being a pastor-centric church.

And here's here's what we mean by that.

And I'll just preface this by saying this God has called us to do things a certain way here.

There are certain things that He has made it very clear to us as a team, and and this originated with the people that started our church.

Do things this way.

This is how I want you to do things.

So we're gonna talk, well, honestly, we're gonna talk about something that's very, very unusual in church culture.

And if taken the wrong way, it can this could sound like us being religious, saying that this is the right way and everybody else is wrong, uh, because it's pretty normal for churches to be, I would say, at least somewhat pastor focused.

Maybe they wouldn't say pastor-centric, but where the pastor gets a lot of attention and is is, you know, all that.

So, you know, if you go to a different church and and and what we're describing is is not it's like that's different from your way.

We're not we're not saying that you're way in the wrong.

Um but we're really passionate about this.

We we actually think it should be more normal than it is.

Well, I mean, I'm okay saying that.

I agree.

Um This is something we'd like to see change in in church culture, but at the end of the day, this is something God's made clear for us, and and we got to do what He's called us to do and asked us to do.

So um this isn't about this isn't about taking a pot shot at what is normal in church culture, but at the same time, it is about us exploring and saying, hey, is is this a good thing?

Is this Yeah and and going there?

So when I say when I say pastor-centric, what give me a mental picture?

Like what what comes to your mind for me for for you when I say pastor-centric?

Or when anyone says it's not about me, because I'd be pastor-centric.

When anyone says pastor-centric, when a random person says, walks up to you on the street, because you're always on the street, and says, Hey Nathan Fowler, I was thinking of some real pastor-centric thoughts yesterday.

What does that mean to you?

What does it mean to me?

What do I picture?

Like, I picture it first as like, is it uh uh uh like a branding thing?

Like, is the does the church have a brand and is the brand the pastor?

Like that's that's the first clearest mental picture of like that would be a pastor-centric thing.

Okay to me.

Okay.

And so uh, you know, that's that's a great point because because you know it uh I I try to walk this tightrope.

And uh I'll use an I'll use an example.

Uh I've had people come up to me and and say, you know, the church church is really like a business in a lot of ways.

And they're both right and not right at all, because there are business elements to church.

You know, obviously we have to we have to keep a balanced budget, we have to make sure we're doing the best practices and and following the laws of the land and all that kind of stuff.

So yeah, there's there's there's that side.

But but the church is not a business, right?

It shouldn't be, you know what I mean?

It just isn't.

Uh it's it's a movement, it's a it's a nonprofit for sure.

We're really good at the nonprofit part.

We're we're we are we're doing great.

We're the best at being a non-profit.

But I know this is good.

There's no profit here.

No, no, we're doing none.

We're nailing that title.

But uh which I it's good, it's how it should be.

So so it's just kind of like that.

Like, okay, branding.

You mentioned that word.

Okay.

The church is an organization on many levels, yes.

Right.

Okay, so we it have we have a name, and there are some values associated with our name, and there are things that we do, but it can quickly become like the whole business uh word, it can quickly become an organization in a whole different kind of way where it's really it's about marketing itself, it's about putting this image out there and getting people drawn to it.

And what we really want is to see people drawn to Jesus.

Yeah.

And it's very easy for people to stop short of Jesus.

Yeah.

Stop short of not belief.

I'm not talking about belief in Jesus, but I'm saying a relationship with Jesus where he is that foundation in your life.

It's very easy for people to stop short of Jesus and stop at either an organization or a person.

And so it is not unusual in in really ever in all throughout throughout history, but it's not unusual, I think, especially the bigger a church gets, um, for whoever is leading that church to be the face of that church.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And so that's what you're talking about branding.

So when you go, when you hit the website, it's like first thing, that guy.

Um or girl.

If you hit, you know, and and it's the the the podcast, even might not be the church's name, it might be like that pastor's name, is it's in the podcast.

My my favorite thing, well, I say favorite thing, like my least favorite thing, but you know, you hit the Facebook page and there's a quote on the Facebook page, some image where it's like graphic design's been done, and it's like a quote that's kind of teasing the next message or whatever.

And then underneath that quote is the the who it's attributed to, and it's the pastor of the church.

Um, which is so weird because it like think about this, like that concept.

I know this is a tangent a little bit, is but it's it's it plays.

Let's say you work for a marketing company and you come up with a slogan.

Because that's your job.

Yeah.

You're the one that does that.

You're the one that comes with a logo.

You would never, like, you would never, there would never be like some advertisement for a company, and here's their slogan, and underneath that it's like John Walker, who's our GM of advertising and sales.

But but in church, it's like, here's the thing said, just in case you guys didn't know, here's who gets credit.

Our pastor said that.

Yeah.

Isn't that clever?

And so it just becomes very focused on the person.

Why is that a bad thing?

In your mind.

Why or maybe maybe bad thing is is the wrong terminology, but why is that something we should be cautious of?

Mm-hmm.

Um well, ultimately just because it it takes the focus off Jesus.

I mean, uh, one of the things we're real intentional about here is that you know, we this conversation is particularly in the context of not being pastor-centric, but one way Steve used to put it is that nobody here is trying to be the next Christian celebrity.

Um because there's there can be this little bit of an allure to, you know, whether it's just small in our uh in our personal life, or if there's like some sense like maybe we can get famous with whatever it is we do.

Maybe there maybe you're a musician or an actor or something where there's a chance for fame in your in your field, and there's this idea of like I'll get famous, and then I'll use my fame to like connect people with Jesus.

And like there's it'll be a platform.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes like we can get the priorities a little out of order where then we're it can be pretty easy in the human heart to rationalize something that's really for me when it comes to fame, justifying it with that, well, I'm gonna use it for Jesus.

Um, but that being said, there's nothing wrong with being famous.

But I don't think Jesus needs us to get famous to make him famous.

I don't think it's needed.

I don't know, I don't think it's the optimal way.

Well, no, and and you bring up kind of an interesting point about getting famous because we we happen to live in a very unique time historically, yeah.

Where just 50 years ago, okay, let's say, let's say 50 years ago, you were a pastor.

And that would have meant that you had a church that you led, and you know, you're probably teaching and and uh being the person that's going and visiting people when they're they're sick and hurting and praying with people, and and if the church was big enough to have a staff, you you would lead that staff and be responsible for that.

Um so you're leading the the the church and teaching and whatnot.

But chances are someone that that wasn't a part of your church or someone that even maybe lived a city or two over, no idea who you are.

Right.

And no no way, there's literally no way you could even be known.

There was a very small handful of people in those days that were known.

I mean, you're talking about uh a tiny, tiny number of known pastors, right?

But now we live in this world of technology where because of social media and and you know things like video podcasts and you know, simulcasts and other kinds of casts, lots of casts.

There's so many ways to cast things nowadays.

Um but but because of of the production side of church, really any any pastor at any church can kind of get their image and their brand, so to speak, out there.

Yeah, that's true.

Right?

Yeah.

And so and so that whole allure of being a Christian celebrity, it's kind of it's more accessible than it ever is.

It's very accessible.

It's super accessible.

In anything.

I mean, you look at uh that's one of the big I mean one of the big concerns about our generation and younger is there's this Well, don't say our generation, I'm not a millennial.

You are.

I was generations and younger, especially millennials.

The the youth.

I was born in 83, and millennials are eighty-four.

So you're a millennial because you were like technically six.

I am.

Is that when you got here?

Yeah.

See, I'm I'm eighty three.

I'm eighty-three, so I'm totally I'm whatever what am I?

Now I'm having a crisis.

I don't even know what I am.

Well, whatever the case, it's it's like a very real dynamic now to where a daily concern is how famous am I online for the average human being.

That used to be an identity crisis that only performers or whatever wrestled with, and it's not a very healthy thing to wrestle with in the future.

And it wasn't instantaneous either.

Back then, it was like you'd wait until the the this month's uh album sales came out, or this week's, you know, here's who's chopping the tarts, but it's it's in minute by minute how many people are listening to this, watching this, liking this.

Yeah, you're right.

So anyone can become a a celebrity on YouTube any moment.

And not that there's anything wrong with or feel like one.

Yeah, or feel like one.

But so now the uh the hunger for that and and almost like the the need for that has become a pretty real thing in humanity today, just even on a normal basis.

So, all the more, like it's it's not just uh people working in ministry, it's it's just humanity and any anywhere with an internet connection has to wrestle with this on some level.

And so what what you see, like and I'm gonna take what you just said and what we're talking about and build on it.

Okay, what what you see happen a lot, and it's just the way it is, is you have you have churches, um and the image, the branding becomes really important.

The person leading the church is oftentimes the face of that of that brand.

And sometimes it's not just the the pastor, it might be like like so.

I'm in I'm in the traditional pastoral here, you know, what you'd think of.

You're you're the worship pastor, so we don't have titles.

We have those are our roles, but we don't we don't have business cards with titles on them or anything like that.

So, but you you lead the worship team.

So you're also that person that could have the the picture online of like you know the the the guitar and the rock pose and all that kind of stuff.

And and a lot of churches really purposely put that out there because it's almost like saying, hey, if you've never been here, check out our guy.

Right, you know, and he looks like you know, and and anymore, it's usually like you're super trendy looking, you know, you're you're dressed very, very now.

Uh your hair is very, very now.

I'm actually looking at your hair and it is very now.

I knew this.

I'm sorry, it I didn't, it just happened.

It just happened, but you're it's okay.

You have you gorgeous hair.

It's it's I think gorgeous is appropriate.

Is it?

You just I'm not jealous of your hair at all.

If it sounds like I'm jealous, I'm not.

I don't want your hair.

I'd prefer to be like, I don't want your hair.

I just want my hair to stay on my head.

That's what I want to do.

Dude, you and me both.

Like that's what I want to hang on to it.

But but you know, so it it's it's played out where it's just that that that person is put out there and the spotlight is is on them.

The idea being what you just said, hey, this guy's awesome.

He really hears from God, or she really hears from God.

And and so we want people to follow this person because it's by getting to this person that they'll get to Jesus, right?

It's the middleman.

Yeah, that's right.

And uh, and and honestly, it can get kind of crazy.

And I'm not like I don't want to be, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I don't want to sit here and pick apart stuff.

But I mean, we've talked about this before.

You just you see you see people that it you can just tell this is so purposeful.

Everything, everything that's put out there, it's all been run through this this marketing branding filter from the clothes that you're wearing to the fact that the picture that you're showing was like a like you can tell that there were a professional photographer took this picture, right?

And this specific angle makes the church look bigger than it maybe is, and it makes your your bicep look pretty good in that one, you know, and and and it's it's almost like you go and you go to the website or the the social media page, and it's just like, whoa, that guy looks super cool.

You know what I mean?

Is this a pastor or is this a a performer, you know, at some big big concert kind of thing?

And and here's where where I kind of have to to stop and think about it.

Um well, two two things like two sort of connected filters.

I'll use that that word.

I use that word a lot.

Um number one, can I handle that well?

Okay, so so I grew up.

And and moved around a lot, had a lot of different experiences.

But I sort of settled in in early high school at a small school.

Okay.

And and the school I was at was really big.

And in the big school, um, you know, I think I had I had I did well in school, I had good grades.

That was something that was important to me.

And so at the big school, I had like the 10th highest GPA or something like that.

Um, but no one cared or recognized that.

But at the small school, it was the highest GPA, right?

Because it's a smaller pond.

Sure.

At the big school, I was a good basketball player, but at the small school, I was one of the best basketball players, right?

Not because I was of my my talent level, but because of the controlled environment that I was in.

Yeah.

And so I that's how kind of how I was.

I went to a small college, I worked at a small company.

Then God moves me to Atlanta, stinking Georgia, the land of giant, huge churches.

Like there's just so many, and so many awesome ones, and so many people leading churches who are kind of like the who's who in all the country.

And so it's impossible to live here and and not feel that that like, oh man, I'm not one of the big dogs, right?

Right.

And if I let that, and who cares?

Like but if I but but if I do care and I let that bother me, well, what can what can how what can I do to make me feel a little bit bigger, a little bit more successful?

Well, I can I can look more successful.

Right.

I can I can dress different, I can, we can put that image out there.

We can really brand, I can, I can put the stuff out there that makes me look like I'm that.

Like I don't have a Twitter account.

There's nothing wrong with having a Twitter account.

No, not at all.

Um, but here's the deal.

I know myself.

I I don't want to be able to check some some page and see how many followers I have today.

I don't want that.

Because I want Jesus to get followers.

Yeah.

That's the super spiritual way of looking at it.

And I just realized when I said that, like, wow, that guy's you know, I'm all about Jesus and never myself.

But you know, maybe what I'm saying is I I know myself well enough to know that the more of that stuff that I get into, the more my focus starts to be about my own success.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's one side of it.

Can I handle that?

And honestly, I'm not saying that there aren't pastors that can't.

There's probably a lot that handle that doesn't bother them.

It doesn't well, and whether that messes with a person's personal psychology or not, I remember Susan telling me, I mean, in the first couple years being here and working with her, she said, every ounce of glory, well, we're leading worship, that was the context of the conversation.

Every ounce of glory you take for yourself, every ounce of attention you take for yourself, is being kept from being given to God.

Yep.

And so, you know, whether or not you can handle the attention, it's like, well, uh if God is really who we're here to worship, then why would you want any of the attention?

It should be all for him.

All the glory should be for him.

Um and so just as a worshiper, as you know, if he really is our king, if he really is Lord of Lords, like if he really is our God, then our worship should all be for him, then any glory-seeking would be to take what's his.

Yeah, and you know, and I think that's one of those things where we can hyper-spiritualize that if we wanted to, and make it like this really like I kind of joked about when I said I want Jesus to get all the followers, and then I, you know, I'm sitting there going, okay, well, I want to be clear.

That there are famous pastors that are famous because God has given them unbelievable giftings and and unbelievable messages that the world needs to hear.

And he's he's blessed them with there are worship leaders who I I should I I guess I should say.

No, no, it's no.

Well, depends on the context of that.

What are you gonna say?

Well, I th I think I guess I should to add clarity to what I said before is that that doesn't matter if your church is 50,000 people or 50 people.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, as the worship leader, as the pastor, this has nothing to do with size.

No, no.

Whether you have a website or not, if if I want the glory for me, I'm I'm not giving it to God.

You can do that.

You can do that, you can do that regardless of the small group.

Yeah, well, and what I was saying is, you know, okay, whether you're a pastor, maybe there's there's famous worship leaders that we listen to and love and would like.

And people pay money to go listen to them lead worship, which is kind of a uh when you really think about it, that's that's kind of an interesting thing.

It's interesting and dynamic.

And awesome that there's people being like, I want to worship God so badly.

So there's nothing wrong with being a famous person.

No?

Yeah.

But here's here's where it gets and I think we can just be honest.

So you've got those guys, and you have this whole mess of other guys and girls trying to become those guys.

Yes.

I don't think it's intentional for I don't think they're sitting there going like, um, I'm gonna become this is my way to get famous.

But what they what they do is they connect the success of ministry with how big is the brand, right?

And how how well known.

And so and that you so you tend to follow the paths you've seen other people go on, and you're like, okay, well, if I want to have a big ministry, I gotta get I gotta get big.

If I get big, the ministry gets big, and then you know, Jesus will get bigger because of that, that kind of the process you're thinking.

It'll be a platform for me to to reach more people for Jesus.

Um but like you said, here's what just happens the spotlight just starts to drift ever so slightly off Jesus.

And at first, maybe it's just it's just a few degrees.

And and sometimes it's way more than that.

And and and that that's what brings me to that second filter.

Because the first filter I mentioned was can I handle that?

You know, will that will that and not a lot of people can.

Right.

Okay.

Number two is will people stop short of Jesus?

Yeah.

And so something that I've I've learned here in the last three years, I've been in the in this role for the last three years, the guy on stage talking.

People do not need any help to get fixated on other people.

That that's not something that we need any like any help doing.

We do that really well naturally.

Like naturally, we get hyper-fixated on a person, and and especially when it's in a God context, we we sort of connect the dots between God and that person, and we start maybe acting like that person has some special line to God that I don't have.

And and if it's the person that maybe has kind of been in that role when you've really gotten excited about God, you can even sort of give them credit that isn't really theirs, it's the Holy Spirit's.

So people naturally want to stop short of a really real relationship with God and and just settle for celebrating a person.

So we don't need to help them with that.

Yeah, we want just as humanity, like we want celebrities.

Like even the even the Israelites were like, Yeah, you're awesome, God, but we we really do want a king.

Like we want a king.

It's like, I'm pretty sure you don't want a king.

No, it's just have you seen what the other countries around you are going through because their king gets whatever he wants and he's not always that great?

And they're like, Yeah, but we really still want a king.

You're absolutely right.

We have that.

And Paul talked about that in the New Testament.

He said, look, the the the early church was getting all divided because some people were real big fans of Paul, some people were really big fans of Apollos.

That's right, you know, uh, one of the early church leaders, and so he's like, look, don't say that you're a follower of Paul, don't say you're a follower of Apollos.

And you take that, and then you you look at how many how many people, okay, um, get obsessed with this this this pastor, this person.

And in their mind, they need to, it's almost like the old mentality of a priest.

I I need that I need that person to connect to God.

And no, you don't.

You don't.

That's why Jesus said, Don't let anyone call you teacher for we all have one teacher.

Don't let anyone call you father because we all have one father.

Jesus said that himself.

Yeah.

Which is a pretty clear statement to me of like, hey, it's not about you.

Yeah.

Don't don't don't create some some artificial, you know, it's religion is that this this artificial thing that creates extra steps to God.

Exactly.

Or that tempts people at stopping short.

Yes.

And this is not my church.

No.

This belongs to him.

It's not ours.

It cause because here's the thing, it was here before I was, you know, even part of it.

And there will be a day, who knows when, when it's going and I'm not part of it anymore.

From the, you know, I mean I'm either dead, I hope I don't die, like today.

Because that would make this statement really.

Don't put your face in your palm like that.

I know I'm I know it's I'm sorry.

I have bad filters for uh I got in trouble a lot for things that came out of my mouth.

I I get in trouble a lot for things that come out of my mouth, which is why I have to be real careful on on Sundays.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it's it's a it's effort, man.

Because there's times where I'm like, I want to say this and I know that this is not gonna come out right.

And I have to I need to I need to pray about this a little bit more, think about it a little bit more too.

Anyway, um no, I just I people will stop, they'll they'll they'll do that on their own.

Yeah.

So without any help, without any encouragement, without any uh push, people will stop and get fixated on the person and they'll say, I go to so-and-so's church.

I'm a part of of his ministry, you know, or her ministry.

Um and it's like, whoa, whoa, hold on.

Jesus, right?

And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

No, no, I'm passionate about Jesus.

But it's like but really, it's when that guy talks, or when that person sings, or when that girl, whatever, that that's when and so if people do that naturally, we we shouldn't be we shouldn't reinforce that.

We shouldn't we shouldn't communicate that that's the way it should be.

No, and the more, and the more you know, visually and and whatever, uh, the more the more you do things that make that person seem like a big deal, yeah that make that person seem a little bit larger than life, you know, and and you know, the the pictures online, the the whatever the the the quote that's really epic and the person's name next to it, the more you do that says, check out what he said, right?

Look at what she did.

Look at it just it just makes it kind of all the more easy.

It does.

It does, and it's not, again, it's not it's I I I literally think, here's the truth, I I do believe that most churches, especially kind of larger churches, are way too pastor-centric.

I really believe that.

Yeah.

And I'm not trying to be, I just believe that.

I believe that it's it's there's way too much focus on the people leading.

And and some of that focus could be better used elsewhere.

I just feel that way.

That said, I know that most of those people trying to get to that point, in their mind, it's it's because they think that they need to be that in order to really be as useful to God as you need to be.

They're just trying so hard.

Right.

Yeah.

But Jesus is, I mean, he he was a big fan of like the small stuff.

Mm-hmm.

He he fought so hard against being put up on those pedestals, and he's God.

Like he literally deserves to be on the pedestal.

Yes.

But when the people were like, You we want to make you our king, he's like, No, no, he he resisted that.

Yeah.

And he would do miracles and tell people not to talk about it.

Yeah.

You know, like he'd heal someone and say, Don't say anyone.

Don't tell anyone to do this.

They almost always did.

But he would say, Don't, don't, which is so the opposite of the world we live in, where it's like, oh, he had something really cool that he said in that.

Go ahead and pull that out, quote it, put his name underneath it, tweet it out.

Let's get this out there.

Let's get as many people to hear the cool thing he said or she said or she did, whatever.

And then you look at Jesus, and it's why he was so secure.

And I think at the end of the day, that's what it all boils down to is insecurity is a really dangerous thing.

And I'm yeah, I'm insecure about things.

Yeah.

Right.

I am.

I just saw a picture of me on, I was watching a video of Liam had a basketball game this last week.

He killed it.

He's awesome.

And I was looking at this video that was posted online, and this one moment of the video, I'm I'm an assistant coach of a first-grade basketball team.

It's a pretty big deal.

I did not know that.

Oh, yeah.

Man.

I'm the assistant coach of the sixes 1v1 stars.

Do you mean assistant to the coach?

Assistant to the regional coach.

Yeah.

Assistant to the regional coach.

Yeah, so I'm the assistant coach.

And there was this one clip in the video where it clipped over to the bench.

And I would and I, first thing I thought when I saw that was like, have I put on weight?

That's the worst thing that came in.

I agree that's all of us when we see ourselves in a photo or video.

That's I agree.

Exactly what I mean.

I agree.

And so that's insecurity, right?

Yeah.

And insecurity, insecurity leads us to a lot of interesting things.

Oh really, you can trace almost every mistake someone makes too much portraits.

Insecurity.

So when you take that natural part of human nature, which we all deal with, and then you add on this celebratory, you know, it's like it's usually not a good combination.

Right.

And I mean, every year we look at celebrities that just they collapse.

And so family dynamic is falling apart.

And then they're struggling under the weight of it.

It's another burden.

Well, I don't think there's anything more exhausting than maintaining an image.

And so that's one of the things I like about our culture is that we don't we don't have this, uh, we have to have it all together.

I certainly am not a life expert.

Certainly, like literally, that's um, I don't know what phrase I would use to describe my mastering of life, but expert is not the word.

And I don't have it all together.

And I'm really glad we have a church where I don't have to pretend to be in that because I think that would just be so exhausting.

And I'm really glad I don't have to pretend to be cool because I'm not.

I'm not cool.

I never have been cool.

And just to be honest, the person trying the hardest to be cool isn't cool anyway.

I learned that the hard way in middle school through early college.

And so I just it's important that the spotlight stays on Jesus and that we don't get caught up in this uh trying to be the next big, the next American idol of the church world.

Yeah.

You know.

And I think it takes it being centered on a pastor, being centered on a celebrity of some kind, whatever, within a church or within your Christian culture, whatever.

Um it just it takes the focus back off people.

It takes like it, it it feeds back into the conversation we had in our last episode about religion.

Like it just says, Oh, you want to compare?

Great.

Let's show you who to compare to.

And not intentionally, we don't set out to do that.

Sometimes we do it meaning well, like, hey, I'll be really good at life, you know, not in a celebrity sense, but maybe just in our personal community and our relationships.

I'll be so good at everything that my friends will be so impressed that they'll be like, man, what do you got going on?

I'll be like, Jesus.

Right.

But what it really is, is I'm like, I'm like biting my lip, trying, like stressing, sweating every day to do everything perfect to try and like that's that's not ministry, that's that's a tightrope that's stress and pain and burden.

Scott Kay's, awesome guy at our church, said it really well to me.

We had a we were hanging out at Chick-fil-A, that's our go-to spot, me and Scott.

And uh and he said there's a big difference between building a ministry and ministering to people.

Right.

But we often think that we have to build a big ministry to minister to people, and in building a big ministry, what goes along with that?

Well, you gotta have a superstar pastor, that he's gotta look the part, he's gotta talk the part, he's gotta be like super charismatic, and or she, you know, whatever.

And so it's like you gotta have that.

That's what you need.

All this big so that then you can minister to people, but Jesus just ministered to people, just went straight to it, and and it kind of took care of itself.

That's right.

And so um so that that that's what we mean.

We we want to be a Jesus-centric church.

We want the spotlight to be on him.

We recognize that there's always gonna be this pull for the hey, what if what if I just take like 10% of the spotlight?

I'll use that 10% to to you know, just put it on Jesus, let people see him, because people will stop short.

I'm telling you, they will stop short if you if you make that a thing.

Now, that said, because we need to wrap this up.

Um, do I dress cool enough?

I did notice you got a new puma hoodie.

You're wearing it today.

I got it for Christmas.

My mom got it for me.

Oh yeah, my mom got this for me.

I've never worn a Puma anything in my life.

I didn't think so.

All of a sudden I was like, I didn't I didn't even know Justin was in a Puma.

I don't know.

What is Puma known for?

I have you're asking the running.

I know so.

Soccer sports.

I don't know if it's anything about I'm a basketball guy.

Puma is not a basketball brand.

Okay.

At least what I mean, you've got Nike, Adices, and Under Armour.

Yeah.

Back in the day it was Reebok, you know, rebook.

What does Puma do?

I think I don't know.

It must be the sport that I soccer.

It must I bet it's soccer.

Soccer or or uh maybe like running.

Yeah, no, I see their shoes.

But so um so yeah, my mom got this for me for Christmas, and it's not a it's nothing like anything I wear.

It's very like brightly colored.

Well, it's not really.

It's a bold, it's a bold pattern.

It's a bold pattern, thank you.

It's it's kind of, but it's super comfortable.

Yeah, I bet.

Okay, it's 100% polyester, so I don't have to worry about it shrinking, which is great because polyester doesn't shrink.

I don't think so anyway.

Yeah, not like cotton.

No, no, no.

And so I uh I love not having to put effort into what I wear, especially the colder it gets.

The colder it gets in the year, the less I want to like worry about.

I don't you do well with layers and stuff like that.

I don't want like backpacking and motorcycling.

I just want sweatshirt.

So I always have a sweatshirt.

Yeah, and this is my sweatshirt this year.

My mom got it for me, and I'm wearing it.

And I took her out to lunch for her birthday today, so I thought I'd wear the sweatshirt that she got me to show her that I care that I care.

But no, no, honestly, do I dress cool enough?

Because I think well, I mean it's good that we've talked about this, but I've like or like a tattoo.

Should I get it?

Should I get a tattoo?

Man, I want tattoos so bad, and every time I start to think like, okay, I I could afford a tattoo, I go and blow it up.

Are they expensive?

Well is it like what you get what you pay for?

Is that how it goes with tattoos?

I think it's you get what you pay for, and I I'm like, if I get a tattoo, I want like color, I want like, and I just every time I get close to where I could pull the trigger and buy like go get that done, I buy a guitar.

So I buy guitars.

So how many guitars do you need?

More.

Why?

You can't you can only play one at one time.

I but I love them so much.

Why would you need more?

Well, you you set them up with differently with different streams for different weights, they have different sounds because the way the pickups uh and different wood sounds different.

I can ration like a oak, you have like an oak and a pine, not oak cherry, but you have maple next.

There's rosewood or maple fretboards, you have mahogany bodies versus insane carved mahogany ash or um alder bodies, you have chambered hollow bodies.

So on this whole pastor-centric thing, here's what I'm thinking.

Here's what I'm thinking.

I'm thinking I think I'm 33.

So I've still got time to be to be cool.

Like, yeah.

No, to be super cool.

Because, you know, you've got like there's this window.

You can I don't think you can be cool as a pastor from like 35 to 45.

That's just impossible.

You can be cool in your early 30s, and then you can be cool again when you hit like 4550, and but you read like 30, and you're sty- then you're cool again.

Yeah.

So I there's a short, I'm about to hit, I'm about to hit the the the no man's land.

So what I'm saying is here's one thing the right tattoo, the right haircut, and I'm thinking like with like a shape shaved into the side, like a lightning bolt, maybe.

Come on.

The right haircut, the right, the right tattoo, if I lose another 10 pounds, and then if I lose another 10 pounds, I should probably I could probably wear a medium shirt, but then I buy smalls.

Okay.

And then I don't even know what pants are popular anymore.

I guess like super the super, like like uh some joggers or some super skinny jeans.

Right, shoes.

I noticed like really tight jeans, but then really bad like baggier shirts is kind of a thing.

So maybe I don't have to even worry about losing the weight then.

And that's great.

That's wonderful.

Perfect.

And I'm just I'm just saying there that maybe maybe we're wrong.

And maybe we should go the whole other direction.

Let's do that.

I don't know, man.

I've never we haven't tried it.

We've never tried.

Let's not.

No, I'm I mean I'm I don't want to, but I'm just saying I could get like uh our highlights and hair cool now?

Is that a thing?

Do you guys do that?

It was cool like when InSync was around.

I don't know, I don't know what's next because like the lumberjack look is on its way out, and I don't know what's coming into the city.

Are you saying plaid is about to be out?

The lumberjack thing has been like a big deal for a while.

Like, look like a city lumberjack with a tongue.

Oh no.

So two things that have to be.

Plaid has to stay in fashion because if it's I gotta buy new clothes, uh well, I don't really have to, so I don't care about being a fashion.

So forget it.

But the beard, beards have to stay.

Because beards hide neck fat really well.

I look 12 without a beard.

I just look like I have neck fat.

I don't care about how old I look.

I'm saying like I need this, I need this beard.

This beard gives me a cushion.

It gives me a cushion.

It's like creative shading.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

And then and then if you like whatever, if you if you shave, you look like you, or if you even trim, you look like you lost weight, which didn't.

It's just your face looks smaller because the beard's taking up with space.

So no, I need I need the beard.

That's all about my image, and I I need to really need to focus on that more, I think.

Okay, so bring us on.

Let's let's just end it.

Okay.

All right, you guys are awesome.

We'll talk to you all later.

Um have a great one.