The Cutting Room Floor - Struggling with Pornography

Men have a tendency, because we've taught this in our culture, and I think maybe women are taught this more now than ever, too, is that sex is like a need.

Like it might as well be oxygen, food, like water.

Like you can't live without this.

So when you believe that and you've chosen to save sex, well, you know, I gotta do something.

And so I thought, and it I didn't have that excuse, it wasn't that simple, like, well, I have no other choice.

I really fought to stop.

I just didn't have the tools or the maturity or whatever.

But I did believe, well, when I get married and I have the real thing, this is gonna go away.

And I'm marrying my dream girl, and she's gorgeous and wonderful, and all this is gonna just fade quickly.

And that didn't happen.

That wrecked me.

Because now, you know, I I came into marriage on like riding high, like, okay, here we go, I'm done with this.

And then when I came back, I didn't know what to do.

Hey everybody, it's Madison here and Justin.

And we're uh doing something, it's like the return of the cutting room floor.

The cutting room floor, which is where something doesn't make it into the message or message series in this case.

And I know that the biblical sexual ethics series started out as just a message, kind of turned into Yeah.

So if you're just jumping in, we had a series that lasted three weeks.

Yeah, and it was called The Biblical Sexual Ethic.

And it was in an attempt, we get a lot of questions.

Um, you get you're the youth pastor, Madison, so you get lots of questions from the students.

What are some of those questions like, by the way?

It's not so much questions, it's more assumptions.

And so I see as we start discussing things about dating or um social media or what whatever it is, it's not always pertaining to sex, but a lot of the time it is.

Um there's just assumptions that are kind of baked in.

Yeah, assumptions about what is appropriate sexual behavior or things that are kind of in the periphery of sexual behavior.

And uh, and there's so much thrown at us that our culture is kind of, I mean, this is true.

This isn't some type of alarmist statement that we live in a time when our culture has redefined what healthy sexuality looks like faster and maybe more drastically than at any point, at least in our nation's history.

Yeah, and so I see students that are, you know, dealing with this the same thing that teenagers with hormones have always dealt with, and it's like being tempted and wanting to make out with your girlfriend and take that far or whatever.

Right.

But then there's the other uh questions that have to do with sexuality that don't necessarily have to do with sex itself, where it's like identifying as same-sex attracted or being gay or whatever that looks like transgenderism, which has grown tremendously.

And we we covered all of that uh to the best of our ability, at least.

Um in the in the three-part biblical sexual ethics series, it was really a message, and then it was two QA kind of, well, not QA, people had asked questions and we responded.

Um and then one but this conversation right now is specifically about pornography, which didn't make it in, didn't make the cut.

And you were saying um before we started recording that it was necessarily like, it's not that the questions about pornography were necessarily like, is it wrong?

It was no, it was mostly by overcome that more like strategies.

Yeah.

Because we have like a lot of people struggle.

Yeah, it was it was definitely something that you could tell it was it was a lot of people, mostly guys, but there are women that struggle with this too.

It's being targeted more at women nowadays, more ubiquitous.

But people going like, I I have a habit or maybe even a full-blown addiction where I look at this all the time and I don't want to.

Sure.

There's definitely that part of me that's like, this isn't good, this isn't what God wants.

At the same time, I don't know where to start.

No, it's actually this is a conversation I've had so many times.

Why have you had it so many times?

Because I struggled with pornography uh to the point where I would say I was addicted to pornography for um most of my late teen to early twenties, mid-20s, um, really ramped up late high school, college.

And I thought when I got married it would go away because I would have the real thing, and it didn't, right, to my confusion and frustration and shame and guilt and all that stuff.

And so, you know, our church is different.

Um, I don't feel the need as the pastor to present some type of per perfect image, like some facade.

Um, which is probably why you've had the conversation so much, is because I've talked about it from the stage.

Yeah, I'm open about it, I've shared about this from the stage.

Some people go like icky, gross, and they leave, and that's fine.

Um, but other people are like, oh, this is someone that understands, and they'll come to me with questions.

So usually when I have a guy come to me and say, Hey, oh, like I get this all the time, let's meet.

Can we meet?

There's something I want to talk to you about.

I'm like, I know.

Right.

And half the time they'll kind of tiptoe into it.

I'm like, lock down your phone, I'll pray for you.

Is it porn?

They're like, oh, it is.

Yeah.

Um, but but again, I think that's what's so interesting about this struggle is pornography is such a private battle.

Right.

Right?

Like, it's not like if you if you struggle with drinking too much, people find out.

The repercussions make themselves apparent pretty quickly.

If you go to the bar and just hammer back a bunch of hard liquor, when you come home, people can smell it, people can, you're inebriated, it's obvious, your performance at work slips.

Like, okay, you can be full-blown addicted to pornography and no one have a clue, which actually is hard because you feel like you carry this secret and you have this like double life.

And especially if you're a Jesus follower and you're trying and you genuinely love Jesus and you're trying to follow him, you feel like such a fake.

And that's what the enemy does, that's what Satan does.

It's like on one-handed tempts you, and then he shames you, and then you feel like you have to hide things.

Yeah.

So, what are the some of the things that you say to those guys when you meet with them?

The first thing I always talk about is to understand what porn is and what it is not, okay?

Um, and not even from the standpoint of like it's sin.

Like, I didn't have that category when I first got exposed to pornography.

I started looking at pornography when I was in the third grade.

So I'm 39.

I'm that generation that um, you know, it went from Playboys, magazines, things like that, to there's a computer in your house and your parents don't know how to use it, but you do, and they got the internet.

Um we used to get these CDs that were like 100 free hours of AOL internet you put in your computer, and you know, it didn't take me long to find that.

I was at a friend's house, showed it to me.

But I got exposed for the first time at a friend's house in third grade.

We didn't start going to church as a family until I was in the fourth grade, um, the summer before that.

So it was already wrong?

Oh, yeah, that's what my point is.

I didn't have that language of like, it's sin.

But it wasn't like I was sh, hey mom, I saw the coolest thing at my friend's house.

It was like we looked at it.

No, of course there was something in inherently inside of me that was like, keep this hidden.

And so that's what I did for a really long time.

Um, I think I opened up with a few guys when I was in like late high school, college, early college that we were safe to open up to.

And we were like accountability partners to use a Christianese statement, but kind of like we're all failing.

Right.

So we're accountability partners, and it was like half, yeah, but like keep keep up the good fight.

But most of it was like, thank God I'm not the only one.

Right.

It was kind of relief that other accountabilities turn into to I slipped up again.

I slipped up again.

Oh, me too.

Ah, me too.

Oh man.

And and honestly, that's that's what it was, but we were trying.

It wasn't, it was, you know, it wasn't um badly motivated.

It was just didn't have really didn't know what to do.

When I was in my junior year of college, the associate pastor, which uh if you're if he we don't even use that language here at his hands, but if you've ever grown up in a church that's like the if the pastor was really sick and was out for a week, that's the guy who would probably teach and take the lead.

So he just gets up on stage, and I'm in Kansas City, Missouri, and he's like, hey, if you are, it was I never like the way he worded this, it was so like epic but simple.

He said, if you are stuck in the deep dark hole of pornography and looking for a way out, there's a group of guys that meets every single Tuesday morning at 7 a.m.

here at the building, come.

And I was like, I am in a deep dark hole.

I was like, start weeping in church.

So I got up early and went to church.

And I remember being really nervous because I was volunteering at the time and I was kind of like I was an intern, so I was thinking, man, this is a risk for me to go.

And the doors open, and it's like a who's who of some of the men at the church I respected the most.

Yeah.

And it really helped it what it helped me do is realize this is not an uncommon battle.

And the amount of shame and guilt that I carried that was keeping me from ever opening up to somebody else was so unnecessary.

It's not that it wasn't a big deal, right?

It it just was not um, maybe it's like David and Goliath, right?

Like David Goliath looked like a big deal, but it's actually a kind of anticlimactic fight.

Right.

Porn's been a battle for sure.

I'm not saying it's just uh be done.

But seeing the people you respected going like, oh, I I am not as alone as C.

I'm not as alone, and maybe this is not as much of an insurmountable battle.

Or even life life-defining 100%.

Because I think that's where it gets to.

Yeah, and so like I remember I I was on a high, like an emotional high.

And so I went like three weeks without looking at pornography.

And that at the time for me was like amazing.

I I was at that point, I didn't use this language.

I would have said I struggled with porn, sure, but I was addicted to it.

I looked at it every day.

Um, I had a lot of free time in college.

I mean, I worked a lot and studied a lot, but I'm in, you have time.

If you I lived on a dorm, in a dorm, so it's like you're in your room, and I remember went three weeks, which was a big deal.

And then I messed up and I was really dejected.

So I went to the guy, I called him, and I was like, just again, and he went, dude, you went three weeks.

Now you know you can go three weeks.

Now go a month.

And it was like so simple.

Yeah.

And so that began the process for me of opening up.

I did open up to my wife before we were married.

It was like I had a buddy of mine that told me we were engaged, we had like two months until we got married.

And he said, Man, you have to tell Megan.

Yeah, I didn't want to.

He said, She just has the right to know what she's saying I do too.

Yeah.

And I was like, uh, I wish you didn't say that.

Oh no.

So I told her, and it was, it was hard for her to hear.

I mean, she was really heartbroken.

But I believed that the the reason, and this is what we're gonna get to when I say what it is and what it isn't.

I believe that the reason I struggled with it was because I was abstinent.

Megan and I, Megan is the only, I know this isn't everybody's story, and I'm not shaming anyone who would it's not your story.

Um, but Megan and I did not have sex before we were married.

Um we we really saved that.

And even to the point where we saved like uh like lots of things.

It wasn't like just that, you know what I'm saying?

We we um and I honestly like I don't think I could have ever done that if I hadn't been with someone that was as committed to that as Megan was, right?

So um But you believed that it would stop.

Yeah.

Because you had saved that aspect of your life, you're like, oh, this is the band-aid until then.

Exactly.

The the true issue that I was in my mind dealing with was lack of sex.

And so, because you know, men, it's I'm I can only speak for men.

I've I've never been a woman, and I never will be one.

Uh the men have a tendency, because we've taught this in our culture, and I think maybe women are taught this more now than ever, too, is that sex is like a need.

Like it might as well be oxygen, food, like water.

Like you can't live without this.

So when you believe that and you've chosen to save sex, well, you know, I mean, I gotta do something.

Right.

And so I thought, and and it I didn't have that excuse, it wasn't that simple, like, well, I have no other choice.

I really fought to stop.

I just didn't have the tools or the maturity or the whatever.

But I did believe, well, when I get married and I have the real thing, this is gonna go away.

And I'm marrying my dream girl, and she's gorgeous and wonderful, and all this is gonna just fade quickly.

And that didn't happen.

That wrecked me because now you know I came into marriage on like riding high, like, okay, here we go, I'm done with this.

And then when it came back, I didn't know what to do.

So I didn't tell Megan.

And we had kind of left that church that we were at.

We were kind of uh in in in between churches, and we were get we were gonna move down here, and I didn't have the same closeness to a group of guys, so I just dealt with it internally, and which was a terrible idea, right?

Kept it a secret, um, and ended up kind of just being exposed when I had been married for five or six years.

And um, you know, at one point, well, about a year into our marriage, I did share with Megan.

Um, she just asked me actually at one point, like, do you still struggle with this?

And I said yes, and that was really hard.

But even in that moment, I bounced back with like on an even bigger high.

So I then I think at that point I went like six months, right?

And I was like, oh, this is done.

And then it came back again.

Um, because all I was relying on was the emotional bandwidth that I, whatever emotional energy I had to be done, that whatever that motivational power will be is a thing, it's a thing, but it runs out, yeah.

And I every time I'd run out, it would go away.

And then it's like you have less willpower to fight because you you fit you failed.

Um and you keep saying it comes back, and I think that's the part of the what what this is.

Like you're like, it's not sin, like we it is sin, yeah, but like that aspect of like sin doesn't give up.

Yeah, so it's not gonna let you just go six months, it's gonna keep trying at you.

Yeah, okay.

So think about it this way.

Um, and you're helping me focus.

This is what you do on these conversations.

That's good.

So all that to get to this point, and this will help us define what it is and what it isn't.

Um I learned the hard way that it was not um simply a band-aid is a good word for it, like you said.

It wasn't just a band-aid that was compensating for the lack of something in my life.

Because when I didn't have that lack anymore, it was still there.

Right.

Um what it what it was was a strategy, a temptation that had a a force behind it, right?

That is so, I think what makes porn so interesting for men specifically is it's like you could not more custom create a temptation for men.

Men tend to be extremely visual, extremely have a high sex drive, like men just typically do versus women.

Like, and so if you could custom create a temptation that is targeted to men, you know, it's pornography.

It's it's you know, it's hidden, all that kind of stuff.

And then you grow up in a culture where you have access to devices left and right, and it's all over the place.

And so, but but it's important to remember that there is a person behind this temptation, there's a force behind it.

It's not just some thing that's out there that you stumble into.

No, no, that there is an active force that is pushing this to us, and that's not some conspiracy theory or some spiritual you know, voodoo thing.

I mean, one of the first times sin is talked about in scripture uh is is a conversation that God has with Cain early in Genesis, and he says, sin is crouching at the door and it's eager to control you.

You must subdue it, right?

Or or it's gonna wreak havoc, essentially.

And so there is a personification of sin.

And we know as scripture reveals later, we have an enemy, you know, called Satan, you know, the devil, whatever you want to say, and and he tempts us, and pornography would just be like a go-to for him.

And it's so it's so damaging on so many different levels.

I had a young guy come to me not long ago and say, hey man, I'm struggling with this.

And I said, Well, let's just stop for a second.

This guy's young enough that he's not uh he's not married, he's not close to being married.

And I said, Man, just know what this is.

This is this is an attempt for Satan to sabotage your ability to have enjoyable, healthy sex when you're an adult with a spouse.

And he kind of looked at me, and I was like, Yeah, because pornography is is a lie.

Like that's what Satan does.

I mean, Jesus said he is the father of lies.

Pornography is a lie.

The women are pretending to have the time of their life.

They are not.

Read any article of an interview from a woman who has been in the porn industry and come out of it.

They it is it churns women out like crazy.

They go from being like a known name, like a porn star, and then within two years, usually they're they're out and they're on drugs because they're trying to cope with all of the stuff.

But you know, the industry doesn't care because there's another 18-year-old girl, like it just keeps happening, right?

It's a lie.

And it's a lie that a lot of young men get exposed to at an age where it becomes their defining picture of sex.

Right.

Like a third, you said third grade, fourth grade.

That's not, you're not like yeah, you're not working against anything.

That's your introduction to sex, the world of sex entirely.

Yeah.

So here are some things that porn taught me about sex, and it was my first exposure to sex.

Um, and it was my main instructor on sex.

So porn taught me that um that women really, really want to have sex all the time.

Because in porn, they they just do.

And it taught me that men don't really have to work very hard for sex, right?

Because all it takes in pornography is a man to say, I want.

It taught me that uh a woman's role in sex is just whatever pleases a man.

Okay.

Um, it taught me that uh women should act like sex is the greatest thrill ride in the history of the world because from the moment it happens in pornography, I'm not being crass, I'm just being honest, and any guy who's listening to this that's looked at porn will know.

Um, it taught me that, you know, oh, women act like sex is the greatest thing in the world, and they just scream to the heavens for how much fun, right?

So it gave me all these pictures of sex.

Well, here's what you'll never see in pornography.

You'll never see intimacy, you'll never see trust, you'll never see care, you'll never see tenderness, or concession.

Or concession.

You'll never see a woman say, you know, I I am just really tired today.

Okay.

I'm not in the mood.

And the guy would be like, You got it.

Um, so what porn never does is teach you how to deal with someone saying no.

Because women in porn never say no.

Right.

They don't say no to having sex, they don't say no to anything within that.

It's just women say yes, yes, oh my god, more please.

And then you get married.

Or some people it's not marriage, they they get into a sexual relationship.

And that's not how it goes.

Because the person you marry hopefully isn't an actor.

Yeah, I would hope.

Right.

Right.

It's not how it goes.

Not like professionally, but like actually, like just or faking their love for you.

Even in some situations where someone early on the marriage feels like, or the relationship, someone has a sexual relationship, it feels hot and heavy.

Sometimes people are kind of playing it up early on because they're trying to but it's still a real person.

But yeah, as soon as the safety's there for it to be real, you're going to have so many times where the person says, says, No.

I'm tired.

And and porn doesn't give you any, or or what I told this guy, you know, I'm like, this is sabotaging, or you start to have a sexual relationship, and you know, your spouse isn't just like, oh my gosh, yes, yes.

And you're like, well, what's wrong with me?

Is something wrong with me?

I'm not, am I unable to and then eventually that'll turn on the other person and go, what's wrong with them?

Why don't they want two more?

Why aren't they more excited?

Why aren't they more and and all of a sudden you find yourself in this position where you have the real thing.

You have the real thing, and you're frustrated with it.

Why?

Because it's not matching the picture you were given.

Right.

And and that picture was a lie.

It was a constructed dark lie, but you saw it so much you believed it was true, and now your ability to just enjoy the real thing for what it is has been sabotaged.

Stare at the darkness long enough, the darkness becomes you.

No, but for what is that from?

I think it's like a Nietzsche quote.

I don't know.

Okay, okay.

But uh Batman or something.

Yeah, it sounds like Batman.

No, but it is like your expectation and honestly the spiritual aspect of sex, of saying like this is you bonding with someone, has been wasted for a decade or however long on something completely false.

Yeah.

And so when you get the real thing, you're so bonded with the false thing that you can't even relate to to the real thing.

Yeah, and it teaches you that sex is all about excitement, right?

Right?

So, what I find, and this is something I've dealt with with men who have come for counseling, is they'll be frustrated with their sex life.

And I'll why?

And it's just not exciting enough.

And it's because, oh, excitement is the point of pornography, it's to get you excited.

And unfortunately, it tends to be a pretty dark uh downward spiral that what got someone excited at one point is no longer exciting anymore, so it just gets, you know, has to get more and more fringe to be exciting.

And so, you know, then all of a sudden you're in this relationship and it's the same person day in and day out, right?

Porn does not teach you that.

It's like next, next, next, next.

So it actually even chemically trains your brain to variety.

Yeah, that's gotta be and quick, quick, quick, quick.

So all that to say, I I talk to guys about it, I say, first you've got to understand what you're dealing with.

You're dealing with something that is it is a hundred percent intended to sabotage you.

It is like a double agent.

It is it is dressed up, it looks nice or whatever, and even though it's obviously not nice, like it's secretive, right?

But it's designed to undermine your ability to enjoy one of the best things that God ever gave us, you know, is that is that gift.

Um I think one of the other things that was a big jump for me, and I started going through counseling for this, um, you know, the second time it really came to light in my marriage, um, my son had just been born my oldest, and it got exposed.

And I I was pretty broken at that point.

And I think what broke me was I Lied about it for so long, and my intentions were to beat it and then come to my wife one day, like three years later, and be like, Hey, I used to struggle with this, but it's been three years, and I was gonna be like, just come it being exposed.

It would still be a lie.

Yeah, it would, but but in my mind, it's like, no, I want to beat this, and then I I'll feel safe.

Right once it's in my past, I'll feel safe to talk about it.

But having it be exposed in the midst is just it's just shameful, right?

Again, that's what sin is.

Um it it's both temptation and then guilt at the same time.

And so I got counseling, and I was just I was pretty broken.

I think where I was broken the most is that I just didn't feel like I had much fight left in me.

Like I used to fight it really hard, and I got to this point where it was like there wasn't much fight left.

The willpower was pretty low.

And I'm sitting in this guy's office one day and I'm talking about it, and I and I kept kind of going back to sexual frustration, you know, whatever.

He goes, Well, you know, it's not has really very little, if anything, to do with sex, right?

And I was like, What are you what are you talking about?

Like it has everything to do with sex, you know.

No, no, it doesn't.

This isn't really about sex.

And I'm just confused.

And he's like, Well, when did you start looking at porn on a habitual level?

And I was like, third, fourth grade?

He's like, okay.

Were you pretty sexually frustrated as a third grader?

And I'm like, no, no, I don't think I'd ever thought about sex.

And he's like, yeah, okay.

And it clicked for me, oh my gosh, I started looking at this habitually before I was sexually mature, before having sex was even like a possibility.

Right.

What in the world?

And he just helped me see this is this is a habit that became a coping mechanism for you at a young age to deal with stress and all that, like you know, there's a chemical side to it, dopamine, you know, all that kind of stuff, but it's not about sex.

It's not about sex, it's about comfort.

It's about when in a world where, you know, when I was a kid and my parents were fighting, that was a comfort.

When I I moved a lot as a kid.

So I went from I moved in third grade to a new school for fourth grade, and then I moved again in seventh grade, and then I went to uh three schools in eighth grade, and then I went to three schools in tenth grade.

So my late elementary and early, late elementary to early high school was just change, change, change, change, change.

That's that's really hard for a you know teen because your trend group changes, you're you feel it's hard to be the new kid all the time, right?

Well, that's that's uncomfortable.

This is comfort.

It never says no, it never rejects me, it never judges me, always available, always available, exactly what I want.

Right.

So it was a comfort.

And it's that compulsion that would lead anyone to have a compulsive behavior about anything.

100%.

Because it is that like I feel safe eating this tub of ice cream is like the stereotypical thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's it's it is comforting.

It is very it's it's comforting.

Now it's a um it's a hijacking of of your comfort, right?

It's like a um, but it became a coping mechanism.

And then I'm an adult and I have a child and I'm married and I work at a church and I have all this pressure and um you know pressure to be super Christian, yeah, great Christian, a great, you know, husband, uh uh, all that.

And at times you feel out of control and you feel like you're not living up to things, and you feel bad and down and tired and worn out, and you know what?

Well, what do what do I go to?

It's a comfort.

I think a lot of guys, especially as you get older, struggle with the fact that you know it becomes nostalgic for some men.

Where if you started looking at it at a young age, like nostalgia is powerful, right?

Right?

So it's like, you know, when my kids got old enough to play video games, right?

And I'm like, oh, I remember, I remember this.

I yeah, like there's yeah, that that nostalgia for some men, um, and maybe women too, again, I'm I'm speaking mainly to men, it's a it's a nostalgia, it's like a thing from my young years that brought me that felt good, you know?

Um, and so all those things play into the fact that it's it's a it's an attempt to sabotage you, and it's also a false sense of comfort because the comfort never lasts.

As soon as you feel comfortable and ah, it's like especially if you're a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit side of you, there's this inner wrestling, and you're like, I know, I did it again, right?

I failed again, I'm tired of this.

Um and so was it the knowledge of this that that led you to have experience some sort of freedom?

Or what was the because you say like you start with the what it is and what it isn't.

So it is a lie, it is you know, custom designed to sabotage you, right?

It's not about sex, not about sex.

Um what else is what else is it not?

Uh it's not a real comfort, right?

It's a false comfort because it never lasts.

Like real, yeah.

Was it the recognition of those like true things about it that led you go like, I'm I'm sick of eating potato chips, or you know, I don't know what I'm saying.

Yeah, I think the the there the big motivation for me, because like I said, I used to have a lot of fight, and then I've kept failing and failing.

Right.

Um, when my son was born, I had this moment where I was like, oh man, I just never thought I would be at this place in life and still be struggling with this.

You know, when I was 18, I was like, if you would have said, Hey, do you think 26-year-old you will still and works at a church, we'll still and I was like, No, totally not gonna so I just had this desire to hold my son with clean hands.

You know what I mean?

Like I really did.

I wanted to be, and especially the idea that, man, what if my son I'm bringing this into my home?

You know what I mean?

And uh I mean there's a lot of guys back in the day who their story was like they found their dad's playboys, right?

You know what I mean?

And I it's not what I had, it was everything's digital, right?

So, but just the idea that I'm still bringing this into my home and and therefore I am opening up an opportunity, sure, you know.

There's a spiritual sense too, yeah.

Just an inability to truly have that conversation without feeling that same sense of shame and guilt with your son.

Yeah, I experienced that conversation a lot with parents and their sons as I counsel them, where it's like as it comes out, I can tell that the dad is still processing this and it's and is in a in a good way bringing to me to have the conversation, but also kind of offloading that conversation to me because it's too much for him to handle while his dealing with his with his son.

Yeah, if you're raising a a young man as a man, you want to you want to have that boy look you in the eye.

Right.

And you want to call them to a higher kind of living.

It's like this.

I I was my oldest is 12, and sometime in the last few months, uh, his room was just a disaster.

And I had I had actually cleaned it for him recently, and I went up there, and it was just I was like, dude.

So I'm on this rant, I'm ranting like a dad rants.

We're driving to school, and I'm ranting about like you've got to be a better steward of what you have and take care of it.

Meanwhile, the car we're in, it's my car, is just like a big trash can.

Yeah, there's trash everywhere, and I'm like, you can't.

And I caught it.

I was like, oh my gosh, you know, and you feel this instant desire to shrink.

Yeah.

So a lot of men shrink from kind of ushering their sons into manhood because they feel like, well, who am I?

Right, you know, and part of that I would say, hey, you look, you can, it's okay sometimes to say don't go go where I've not.

Yes, that's good, that's a good thing.

But you still want to be able to look yourself in the eye.

How can you do that if you can't look yourself in the eye and beer?

And so I got to that point.

Um, I think what broke for me, I did get counseling.

And we can talk about this.

There are some like professional counseling?

Yeah.

Christian counseling.

Uh, yes, yes.

So a professional counselor who was a Christian.

Okay, cool.

And I will say this: I have known some people who are quote-unquote Christian counselors, and they have a they have a knack for counseling.

Um, they maybe have some like natural ability there, and they may have even done some some research and some study, um, but they really are not trained.

So you're talking about a qualified, certified, whatever the words would be.

Well, yeah, I feel like I say this like I don't have a seminary degree.

Right.

Like I didn't go to seminary, I went to college, and I have a degree in communication, so I would feel really qualified to teach um a you know, now I don't think you have to have a seminary degree to teach scripture because none of the disciples went to seminary.

Yeah, like um, but the stakes are are very high.

Yeah, you're starting to deal, you're not speaking in general truths to a wide audience.

Like when I teach on a stage, I am talking to a large group of people in very different places in life, and it's general truth that you're going to take and apply in specific ways.

When you're counseling someone, you are you are starting to deal with really, really intricate things.

Right.

And what I found a lot with non-professional counselors is they're good enough to open up some things, kind of blow your mind and go, oh man, I've never thought about that before, but they're not good, they're not good enough to then help sew those back up.

So you're saying be discerning about the counselor you get set up with.

Yeah, we are a resource to get you connected with some counselors.

Yeah, we've got some great relationships here.

I started in counseling, it was professional counseling, and look, you're you pay for it, but it's worth paying for.

Definitely.

I mean, it's totally worth it.

You've had counseling, I'm sure, that yeah, it's worth it.

Um, and I've had good counseling and I've had okay counseling.

I maybe even had some bad counseling, but I would even say that not bad, but even okay counseling is better than nothing.

You know what I mean?

It's better than nothing.

So started doing counseling, started to develop an understanding of maybe how to get started in the battle.

I I just never was able to.

Willpower is not enough.

I think that was my big, my big like breakdown.

Well, if it's a if it's an addiction, I mean we keep going to alcohol as an addiction, but cigarettes, that's probably a more benign one that we can do.

Social media.

Social media, yeah.

Yeah.

I don't have any social media on my phone because the infinite scroll is really bad for me.

Yeah.

Any app actually that has an infinite scroll, yeah, I will find myself scrolling on it.

And I will also find myself scrolling on things where it's like I'm just dragging the bottom up.

Like I don't even have any point in.

It's like uh the finding Nemo character, like you're like, just keep scrolling, just keep scrolling.

And and so, like, if you're trying to quit cigarettes, like having a uh closet full of cigarette cartons that are unopened is not a good thing to do.

No, yeah.

So one of the first things that the counselor helped me understand was that I was putting myself in high-risk situations all the time.

That I was I had willpower, um, but I just I was relying so much on my willpower that it was completely unrealistic.

I wasn't helping myself at all.

And the analogy that hit me, this was a great one, is ancient cities.

Um, if you study like the history of warfare, it's basically for a large portion of time, really until like fairly recently in human history, it's it's how to build a really good wall and how to get past a wall.

And so someone builds a good wall and people can't get past it, they're like, well, we figured out a new way to go over the wall.

Well, then we build a better wall, and then we build a catapult, and then we build it this way.

So it's the history of walls and getting past them.

Um and you would never, in an as an ancient king, you would have never had a city that you, your city, you would never have said, I have an amazing army, I don't need a wall.

That would be like, I mean, you would have been a fool.

No king would have ever thought you waste your army.

You wasted your army.

Yeah.

You have a great army.

They they now that you're gonna lose soldiers fighting every tiny little you know, raid that comes by.

No, you would have built a strong wall around your city.

So I'm saying, I'm gonna save my soldiers for the big battles, and I'm gonna let this wall take care of most of them.

I just had no walls.

And scripture says that a man with no self-control is like a city with broken down walls.

That's in Proverbs.

And so I realized, like, oh, I'm like, there's a connection there.

Like, I need some some walls.

Um, and I think this is a really important thing.

A lot of men will deal with shame when they first start fighting porn and actually having some boundaries, some some actual boundaries in their life that they can't get by.

And they think, like, oh, if I was a good enough, if I was self-controlled enough, right, I wouldn't need these.

And like, maybe.

Yeah, no, as I've started to deal with the problem, I remember saying to my wife as she's putting a code on my phone or like helping me download something, I was like, I just feel like a child.

Yeah, like I feel so yeah, like, but maybe I do need to be protected like a child from something that's as insidious.

You know what I mean?

Like I'm so defenseless.

Yeah, I would say to you, okay.

Yeah, that's like the kind of self-control that you're like a superhuman and you're just able to resist all temptation.

Or maybe it's actually more biblical self-control to recognize I have a weakness here, therefore, out of self-control, I will organize my life in such a way to minimize it any way I can.

That discipline begets self-control, which adds to the discipline and it helps.

No, this real discipline is not like walking into a strip club and not having impure thoughts.

I didn't look at anything, yeah.

Right.

Real discipline is like, I don't go to strip clubs.

Like that's don't you don't even proverbs, don't even go down that street.

Don't go down that street.

Yeah.

So, you know, realize that that was freeing for me to go, I'm not pathetic for needing help.

I'm wise.

Like, just like a king wasn't pathetic for building a wall.

Yeah.

They were wise, they were good stewards of their of their change.

And vulnerable in both ways.

You're vulnerable to sin, so you're dealing with it, but you're being vulnerable in the sense of being open to say, yes, I'm I'm I'm not strong enough to handle this on my own.

And so where it really started for me, as far as the practical, was the devices that I had.

Um and I'm at a place where I'll be honest, I don't have a computer.

Um, I have a tablet, I have an iPad, everything I have is Apple.

I have an iPhone and I have an iPad.

Because we were paid by Apple to say this.

Yes, this uh is brought to you by Apple by Apples.

By Tim Cook's Apple.

No, no, no, no, no.

Just Apples.

Apples.

The fruit.

Gala Apples.

All Apples.

This is sponsored by the fruit Apple in all of its forms.

Okay, no.

Um, well, the thing is iPhones, uh Apple, for what it's worth, at this current point, as we're recording this, um, has phenom has the best controls.

Yeah, it's like a the most cohesive top-down blocks without downloading like spy software to your phone.

Yeah.

So you can you have you have the most control over what you can and can't do.

So I used to, it kind of hit me where my, you know, it used to be my laptop, then it became the phone because our phones became computers at some point.

And it was like, man, me being a uh someone who's dealt with a porn addiction and carrying this device in my pocket would be like an alcoholic carrying a flask of whiskey with them everywhere they go and being like, man, I hope I don't drink it today.

Right.

That's just not that is not a a wise approach.

And so, step one, if you're if you're struggling with this, is like whatever your most common devices are, get them locked up.

Now, I know some guys have things they've got to do for work, and it can be more complicated for others.

Um, but you know, we have this system now where like for me, I have my iPhone right here, I'm holding it in my hand.

Um it does not have uh it does have the internet, but there's a setting in a parental control that you actually have my code as well as my wife, my father-in-law, and your father-in-law.

And yeah, and I'm fine with that.

I'm at the point where I have no sh- I'm like, look, I need a code on my phone, it's not that big of a deal.

It takes it takes care of 90% of the temptation.

Um, and so there's a setting on it that's allowed websites only.

Yeah, under the screen time settings.

Under the screen time settings for the logistical purposes.

And if you don't have an iPhone, you have an Android, we will say that Androids are harder to lock up.

Yeah, and so I just get an iPhone.

Yep.

Like if if somebody's like, oh, but I like Android.

Okay, if you really want to be free of this and you struggle with your device, is it not worth switching to the other like competitor?

Come on.

I've had friends that have done that and they're like, yeah, I really didn't like it, but it's worth it to switch.

It's not hard.

And so you know, don't make things that are hard, that are easy, hard.

So I made a switch.

Um, I already had the iPhone, but you can make that switch.

And so under screen time, it's allowed websites only.

And so there is a list of websites that like I'm allowed to go to.

Right.

And over time, every time there's a website I've needed that I can't like there was something for like Liam's school that was like signing in for parent something different.

Yeah, there was a thing where yeah, his school had you had to go to this website to get a ticket and you had to purchase the tick.

Well, I didn't have that on my list, but I handed it because I've got you, Matt, who works here too, I've got Megan at home, and I've got Megan's dad.

Um, I just handed it to it, hey, put it in.

And now that's on my allowed website, so from now on it will always work.

I would say, like two months in, it's like pretty much every website that I would ever need to go to is there.

And the added benefit is that I don't just scroll the internet for no reason.

I don't just like get on and go, ooh, where do I want to go?

Right.

So allowed websites only, I don't have um YouTube because um there's YouTube's got a lot of stuff.

Yeah, I just don't have it on my phone.

Um, and then I have a setting too that I can't download apps because like your app store is turned off.

My app store is turned off.

Now, if I need an app, do the same thing.

I hand it to Megan or to you, and you put the code in, turn App Store on, I download the app, put the setting back on.

Um because that keeps you from going and downloading an app that works around your works around your thing.

Yeah, because the truth is, guys, if you're addicted to it, addictions like addicts are really creative.

Yeah.

Well, it's like you said, the wall, like the we build a ladder to make the wall.

Someone's gonna figure out a way over the stop that ladder, oh, then build a trebuchet to break the wall.

It's like exactly sin does the same thing.

This this has not solved the problem because it's a heart issue at the end of the day, it's a spiritual issue, and I need the Holy Spirit to uh fulfill me to a point where I don't desire the things God doesn't desire.

That's a journey that's called sanctification.

It doesn't happen overnight, okay?

Um, but what this does do is take care of, I would say, 90% of the temptation because most of those are like moments.

Right now, your row power is saved for a big battle and you haven't wasted it on every little moment you've got to be able to do it.

Every little moment, every time, you know, yeah, 100%.

And uh, and this it's been great.

And so I've got that, and and the cool thing about Apple too is if you have like an I have an iPad, which I is my work, I've got the little magic keyboard, I use it to type my messages, all that.

It's the same settings.

Yeah, the iPad and the Mac, if you have Mac.

So that's like a good logistic.

I think what's harder before that, um, or might be more challenging for some people is that they've never told anyone.

Yeah, it is still a secret.

Okay, so like you're gonna require that you tell someone.

So, step one, I would say step into the light.

You know, let someone know.

It doesn't have to be, by the way, it doesn't have to be your spouse.

Now, I'm not saying that you should stay secretive about that with your spouse, but I'm saying that sometimes, I have seen this happen, guys out of guilt will tell their spouse.

Okay?

And for them, it's like a huge burden lifted.

Right.

But for their spouse, it's a giant burden to carry now.

Yeah.

And I have seen situations where I would recommend, depending on the dynamics in a relationship, in a marriage, whatever, I have seen situations where you might want to start with a counselor and work on some things so that when you do step into the light with your spouse, which which does need to happen, it's done as healthy as possible as healthy as possible.

And if that means it's two weeks later, sure, fine.

Who that's fine.

Um, but you need to you need to have that conversation with somebody.

Um, one of the great things if you're listening to this and you go to his hands is my gosh, I mean, talk to anyone, talk to me, talk to a fine.

It's not hard.

I had a guy reach out to me not long ago and say, Can we talk?

I know what he wants to talk about.

Right.

Right?

And I'm like, of course.

Um, even if it's a phone call.

And what you're gonna find is the same thing I found.

When I came uh to my counselor and explained everything, I was like, Oh, this is me, and uh, and he was just kind of like, Yeah, okay.

So yeah, we'll we'll work on like helping you understand coping mechanisms.

He didn't throw up in the corner.

He was no, he was like, Well, my gosh, this is you know, and I just that's the other thing.

Say it, like it's it's so that that insurmountable mountain.

So I would say, step into the light.

Um, now that said, with your spouse, like it should not be a secret.

Every time I hand my wife my phone, and there's the code, that's like a constant reminder of like, oh, my husband is not impervious to this temptation.

So um which might require some uh couples counseling.

Absolutely.

And we did, we did that.

Yeah.

Um so what's funny is we were actually in couples counseling, and I realized in couples counseling I need personal counseling for this.

So I started doing personal counseling and couples counseling for a while.

Wow, you're really messed up.

I'm super messed up, you have no idea.

Um, yeah, so so step into the light because you'll never beat Satan in the dark.

That's his domain, that's his territory.

You'll you can't.

You step into the light.

Scripture says when we confess our sins to one another, God is faithful and just to forgive us.

That's in James.

So you confess to one another and find the right person to confess to.

I will say the wrong person to confess to is the person that you just know is gonna be like, it's all right, I do it too.

Yeah, I had an accountability partner that I um I was sharing, like, hey, slipped up again in that dynamic.

Yeah.

And he's like, Okay, like, cool.

Uh, what's it gonna take for this not to be the next conversation we have?

Right.

And I was like, Aww, can't you just be like, I slipped up to?

You know what I mean?

Um so to have someone in in your life that loves you enough to to push you forward rather than just being like, uh, here's an ice cream cone while you're in the dirt.

Exactly.

Yeah, don't feel bad.

Because that that I mean it helps for a little while to have that encouragement.

Um, but encouragement is not feel don't feel bad.

That's not the definition of encouragement.

The definition of encouragement is like not feeling bad about your failure.

The definition of encouragement is is being given.

Encourage to make changes to go places you haven't gone before.

Yeah, it's edifying.

It's edifying.

Now, sometimes again, sometimes men beat each other, they beat themselves up so much that you do need someone to be like, you're okay.

Like that time I said, it's been three, he was like, It's been three weeks.

Awesome.

Now go a month.

Right.

I was like, oh, thank you.

He wasn't like, get in gear, man.

What's wrong with you?

But there does come a certain point where you're like, hey, we keep having the same thing, you know.

And I've been in those places before.

I've been and I've been stuck in those places in different seasons of my life.

Um, and having accountability is like it's it's a freedom.

So accountability, and then I think fit like useful right now strategies, like the phone being locked up, you know.

And if you're like, oh, I don't have the ability to do that, okay, then I would say find someone that you can talk to about that.

Like it could be us here at the church.

I bet we can figure out a way to negate the vast majority of the temptations, provided you're someone who's willing to deal with the pain, yeah, which is so minimal, of like, I don't have every app on my phone.

Or like I went through a season where I just had to leave my laptop at work.

Yeah.

I've got a buddy that went through about five years of having a flip phone.

Yeah.

And he was like, I don't even have a smartphone.

Right.

And it was an inconvenience in a lot of ways, but it was also like a worthy inconvenience.

If you're not willing to inconvenience yourself, you'll never defeat whatever you're addicted to.

It's inconvenient to change behavior.

So there's that.

It's like I haven't had a diet soda in over a week.

Congrats.

I felt like a drug addict for the last like I had a couple days ago.

It was inconvenient.

Like I was I was like in this place of just my head was on fire.

Yeah.

My thoughts couldn't focus because I probably I mean, I drink too much diet soda.

I had a lifetime's worth.

A high school student shamed me for how much coffee I drank because I was like, I think I got a problem with coffee because I keep drinking it and it doesn't make me like wake up anymore.

Yeah.

He's like, well, you drink like more than a pot a day.

And I was like, oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

And then like the next the next week I was like, I gotta get that under control.

Well, yeah, and and obviously, like we're all addicted to something.

Um so so yeah, so um, so get some some practical strategy and then get your place yourself into a place of like it's it's habitual for you to be sort of open about it with the people you trust.

And this is, I think, the biggest key though.

Well, we're building up, we're we'll wrap up.

And this is not to excuse it, this is not to give permission, it's not, oh sweet, now I can go do it more.

You have to get to a place with God where you realize that it's already been defeated.

Like when I get to a place in my life where I can say truthfully, not only have I not looked at pornography, but I haven't lusted.

I haven't, like, okay.

What will be the moment that accomplished that?

Will it be the last day that I finally stopped, whatever sliver on unhealthy behavior?

Or will it be the day Jesus died on the cross for my sin?

Yeah.

It's that.

So one of the biggest just just turmoil situations I ever found myself in internally was getting to the place with this sin that I I struggled with whether or not I was even a Christian.

Because I had this idea.

Well, how could I?

And it hit me one day that the main actor, the main character in my relationship with God story is not me, it's Jesus.

Does that make sense?

No, yeah.

Yeah.

Like I'm not the main, I don't play the primary role.

So the reason I have a good relationship with God is because of Jesus.

Right.

And his death on the cross was sufficient to pay for all my sin, past, present, and future.

Well, all future when he died.

Yeah, it's true.

No, I was actually telling someone's like, hey, when Jesus died, how much sinning had you done?

You know?

He's like, no, no, okay, so that we know that Jesus can die for future sin.

Um, and so yeah, there's a freedom in realizing that this will one day no longer be a battle.

And I hope it's not a battle at all on this side of heaven.

I really do.

And I think that's I think that's possible.

But it will one day no, it will not be a battle because my spirit is not struggling with pornography.

My spirit hungers for God and a relationship and a closer walk with Jesus.

Uh, but my flesh does desire the things of the flesh.

And the spirit needs to get stronger and the flesh needs to get weaker.

I wish there was like you could go take a weekend seminar and come away, and your flesh is dead, and your spirit, it's anyone who sells you on that, yeah, don't buy that book.

Yeah, what's John say when uh like he's saying to his followers, John the Baptist is saying, go follow them, and he says, I must uh he must increase and I must decrease.

He must increase and I must decrease.

And then John even kind of had a later on a little bit of a struggle with that.

Right.

Like, what about me?

He has that moment, right?

Uh aren't you gonna come rescue me?

No, sorry.

It's not gonna work out that way.

But but to realize that the victory has already been won, it's just a matter of you learning how to live in that, and I don't say that in a cliche cheesy way.

It's true.

The the there was a moment when I was in college that was probably as much of a turning point in my struggle as any, and I was I was failing left and right.

And it was like nothing I had, but I had a moment, I'll never forget it.

I was in my dorm room, um, I was praying, and I just was like, I had this.

It wasn't just like some uh commitment that I was saying inside of me, like, I promise God I won't do this.

It was like it was that, but combined with a true belief that, and I was thinking very much at the time in like battle language, right?

You know, that I will win this war.

I will lose battles, but I will win this war.

And now, I mean, my language would be different today.

I would say that the war is has been won.

There's actually a lot of stories in history of of times where wars are over, but there's still like battles happening, like the news hasn't reached that mail takes a long time to make it like oh, we're fighting each other, it's already been done.

And that's where I think we find ourselves is Jesus has defeated sin.

We're still fighting it.

Um and so or just being adopted into the family of God and being God's sons and daughters, like when Jesus died on the cross and paid for the sin, and when we've accepted him and have been you know made new by the Holy Spirit, when when God looks at you, he doesn't see the sin.

He doesn't see, yeah, he doesn't go.

He looks at yeah, he looks at Jesus, he sees Jesus because you are in Christ.

You're in Christ and you're clothed with Christ, right?

Yes.

And so is is God pleased with you?

Uh I have a student saying, like, I think God's disappointed in me.

I was like, that's messed up because like are you I said to her, I said, Are you a Christian?

And she was like, uh yeah, yes.

And I was like, so of course God's pleased with you because you're in Christ.

And is and what's he say when Jesus gets baptized?

This is my son with whom I'm well well pleased.

And so when we struggle, we assume that that's like the new clothes we're putting on, or that we're pushing Jesus out, or here's a great example of those metaphor, my.

I'm so sorry to go to this metaphor because I use this way too much, but it's just very prevalent in my life.

So my oldest plays basketball.

No, he does.

And he's in seventh grade, as of the time of this recording, and there's a dynamic that needs to change, and it's on me.

Is that I just I'm in the stands watching, and I need to like just be that.

I don't need to coach him during the game.

He never needs to look at me.

If he does look at me, he never needs to see me try and he just needs, you know.

Um, I had a guy I was talking on the phone last night because I've actually been really battling with this, not not doing great, but I'm I'm aware that it needs to change and I'm motivated.

And he's like, dude, you can either be one of two dads.

He's like, you can be the dad who says after the game, you want to go get some wings, you want to go get some, you know, or you can be the dad that analyzes every part of it and he'll hate it.

Yeah.

And he's just at that age where he doesn't need me to be that guy anymore.

Right.

And I think that like what I'm realizing is there's a lot of battle happening, and he's got a lot to think about when he's playing.

He's got the other team, he's got his coach, he's got his players, he's got situational things.

The last thing he needs is to worry about his dad.

What is his dad?

Right.

Okay.

Well, like, I'm not as good of a dad as God.

But we need to realize that our father is sometimes I'm watching him struggle, and I love him.

I'm watching him not do well sometimes, and I love him.

We've got to realize that that dynamic has been taken care of.

That our father is not watching us observing our lives and just going, What are you doing?

I'm not saying that God isn't just, I'm not saying that he doesn't right.

Yeah, there's compassion, and then there's not and I watch and I see things he needs to change, and then later on, you talk to him a little bit.

I say, hey, man, let's work on this.

Like there's there's that.

And the spirit does convict us.

It does convict us, right.

And so it's not every analogy breaks down.

But the point is, for a lot of Christians, there's the main guilt they're dealing with is this false guilt of God being really disappointed with them when you're saying what you're saying is true.

It's been covered, it's been defeated, it's been beaten, it's been buried, it's been forgotten.

But it's not good for you.

Right.

There ain't no sin that can unsave you.

Yes.

Jesus' grace is greater than your sin.

And you have to believe that.

And if you don't, you'll never, you'll, you won't get much traction.

Right.

If you believe somehow that your sin is somehow too much, too gross, too whatever for God's grace to compensate, you'll you'll just you're never gonna get traction because you'll be just so distracted by that that you can't really move forward.

And Paul says, look, for me, everything is permissible, but not everything's beneficial.

Like at the end of the day, I mean, you've given given grace, and so yeah, I mean, you you can have sin in your life and it doesn't change God's view of you, but it's not good for you.

And so start with understanding you've been forgiven of this already.

It's been defeated already.

That dynamic is taken care of.

God is good with you if you've put your trust in Jesus.

Now, breathe a sigh of relief.

And let's get to work on this because it's sabotaging your joy in life.

And you need to have joy.

Um, so again, that that comes from me from stepping into the light, not keeping it a secret, knowing what it is, what it isn't, seeing it like that for the first time.

It's not about sex, right?

It's not about your spouse.

I had a guy that I was counseling years ago that was complaining about his wife and kept talking about porn, but his wife this, his wife that.

And I looked at him and said, Did you look at porn before you you were in a relationship with her?

And he was like, Yeah.

I was like, well, then what does it have to do with her?

And go.

He's like, Oh no, I wish you hadn't said that.

Yeah.

Um, it's not about those things, it's it's a struggle, it's a temptation that's everywhere in our world.

Accept that.

Claim victory.

Like, not in some, you know, weird Christian, like, I just claim the victory of Jesus.

And it's not a magic word.

You don't say victory, and what's it like the office, like I declare bankruptcy?

I declare bankruptcy.

That's not how it works.

No, it's not a wish genie where you're using the power of Jesus.

I said the magic words, and I no longer struggle.

It's but you you do declare that.

You say, I am putting my trust in the victory of Jesus on the cross.

He has defeated my sin once and for all.

I just have to learn to like walk in that, to live in that.

And then what does that look like?

It's wisdom, it's accountability, um, it's it's being willing to inconvenience yourself.

And that's how you get started.

And I would say that like I'm not the guy that's gonna get you to the finish line in this.

Um, I'll I'll talk with guys and get them started, but at some point, get some counseling, get someone who really knows their stuff because you'll find that it's it's a much more uh defeatable thing than you might think.

Yep.

So yeah.

Well, cool.

Thanks for sharing.

And uh also, if you're listening and you don't go to his hands, I bet your local church has those resources.

No, you should probably leave your local church.

If they live in like Nevada, they should move here.

They probably should move here if they live in Nevada.

Probably live in Las Vegas.

Ugh.

Gross.

No, no, you're right.

No, that I was joking.

No, you're like your local church or somebody around is gonna have those resources.

100%.

Um, so get connected with them.

100%.

I actually had a talking to a person who moved away and they live in Ohio now, and they were talking to me on the phone about how they just can't find a church.

I'm like, you need to, yes, you can.

Right.

Yes, you can.

Like, God is everywhere, and He's got great people in all places.

So, yeah.

Um, yeah, I hope this helps.

And if you have further questions, just reach out and find us, and we'll help you out as best we can.

This has been cutting room for bada bing, bada boom.