How Should High Schoolers Date?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Welcome.

I'm just I don't know how to Hey everybody, welcome to Raising Kids Who Follow Jesus.

That was better.

Oh man, our knees our knees are bumping underneath the table.

That was a little weird.

Sorry, for those of you listening.

Um, I guess we're sitting too close to the table.

And we're both swiveling in a swively chair.

Yeah.

And so we were just like high-fiving each other's knees there.

It was great.

Yeah, you know, I love you, man.

And uh, you know, I'll I'll let it slide this time.

So raising kids who follow Jesus.

Raising kids who follow Jesus is the name of this of this podcast.

Where we try to answer questions and kind of talk through topics about, you know, the challenges of raising kids who follow Jesus.

Or creating an environment in which they could follow Jesus.

That's right.

Well, like obviously, if you're following, I don't know anyone who follows Jesus, like seriously.

Who uh You don't know one?

I don't know anyone who follows not seriously anyone.

No, who doesn't want that for their kids.

Exactly.

But who's like, oh man, yeah, I don't really like if they end up following Jesus, cool.

If not, I don't care.

Like I've never met that.

So obviously we want to raise our children in an environment that makes it as conducive.

This is about to get just chopped.

No, no, no, no, no.

No, it's all good.

And so we're as conducive as possible to following the Lord, and that is difficult in a culture that is so confusing all over the place and uh left to its own.

If you were raised by the culture that we are in, following Jesus would not be like the direction it's gonna push you towards.

So it's a challenge.

Yeah.

And so uh last time we answered the question, should I let my junior high middle school aged kids date?

And the answer we basically got to was nah, probably.

Probably not.

Probably not.

And you can listen to that episode.

And even both of us did in junior high.

And we both talked about how, like, yeah.

It's kind of just awkward and weird.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's maybe a season of life where there's other things that we really want to focus on with our kids.

Right.

And but how to do that in a way that's not just a hard line, like, no, because I said so.

Listen to that episode if you want to go there.

Yeah, and today we're gonna ask a similar question, not the same question.

Should I let my 24-year-old at home?

Should be okay to do that.

No, no, what's the question?

The question is um, how do I help my high school-aged kid kind of navigate dating?

Yeah.

Because not like should you let them?

Because I mean, we can kind of dive into the should you let them, but I think for most teenagers, most late teens in the high school age are they're gonna be dating to some extent.

Yeah, to some extent, what that looks like can can vary.

Um, there are gonna be parents who have a really intense absolutely not, not until you're 18.

Um, you know, it's kind of like that courting thing.

And and look, if that's something that you do, you have a conviction.

I'm a big believer in living by conviction, and there's no scripture that says that is a sin to do that.

I personally um I do know some people who courted.

And can you define courting?

Okay, I was like, I'm glad you said that.

I'm Christian school adjacent.

I went to Christian school for a couple years.

I didn't really see it all.

In the mid to late 90s, there was there was a book written by a guy named Joshua Harris who became a pastor and then renounced his faith completely and totally a few years ago and uh completely like left.

I'm laughing, but that's really sad.

Well, I know right.

But he but the point is he wrote this book at a really young age called I Kiss Dating Goodbye.

Right.

And it ushered in um what was already sort of a growing trend, I think, especially more in like homeschool um communities.

And in a lot of ways, I think it was actually popularized by the uh the show 19 Kids and Counting back in the day, the Duggars.

Which also didn't go well into that story.

Um but it was just this culture of saying you shouldn't date.

Um like literally, parents should be hyper-involved in helping you select your future mate.

Gotcha.

And then from a from I mean, literally, you can be 14, 15, you don't date, you court.

You if you decide to go down this path, you are deciding.

You're like this is you're like wedding planning.

You're wedding planning, yeah, and we're gonna and you're going about it so carefully that like there would be no such thing as an unsupervised date.

Your parents are with you.

So it's like family to family, they're establishing that connection rather than person to person.

But you know, I mean to to not be like um it's easy to look at that now and roll your eyes at, but for much of human history, that was kind of how things work how things work.

So it's kind of an older approach.

But like I said, I've known some people that have done that, and that's a way to do it.

Um I've also known a lot of people who went down that path and came out of it.

Um I know someone who had a really early divorce because they were kind of ushered into that and married someone they they really shouldn't have married, right?

But they felt like they kind of had to, and it then they were young and divorced, going like, is this now I'm a divorced person at 23 years old.

Right.

This is a stigma to them.

They've raised that way, right?

They felt like a failure.

Um and just a lot of other people who tried to raise their kids like that and their kids rebelled hard.

Yeah.

You know, the challenge in parenting a lot of times is if you are too harsh, your kids rebel.

Um, if you're too lax, they often resent you.

But if you're too if you're too hard, um it's like it as soon as you're gone, yeah, it's like they go crazy.

Right.

And so, and and obviously that's a generality, but yeah, that's the courting thing, and there's there's it's a way to do it, it's not the way I would recommend it.

Yeah, so courting is like you're still It's hyper control.

Hyper controlling, and it is family to family, but there still is like an acknowledgement of the romantic life of your teenager.

Well, and honestly, I would say most courting dynamics, the kids are gonna get married young.

Right.

You're gonna be able to do it.

But you're still acknowledging.

I've had parents in the youth group that it was just an outright ban.

It was like, not until you leave my house, you're not allowed to date.

Yeah, how did that go?

Not great.

So I mean, it created a lot of secrecy.

Obviously, there's privacy, you don't want to be able to do that.

Yeah, definitely.

But but I mean it's been years, and and I think there was lots of secrecy in those relationships.

And it's like I'm at youth group on Wednesday nights, so I see the kids in their environment.

Like they're flirt, they're flirting hard.

Yeah, they're kissing.

You know, it's like they're kissing at youth group?

Yeah.

Uh Madison, what kind of like I had to chase people off one time.

Like, so like the youth group, the parking lot clears out, and then there's like one car that you're still like, I think that guy's car is still there.

And you're like, why is that guy's car still there?

And you go up, you're like, guys, leave.

Go go home.

Yeah, yeah.

No, this the seat.

So this is uh we run, well, number one, all of our uh main stuff for students is on Sunday mornings.

No no kissing, it's really since Sunday.

No, but like we used to have um you know these evening, late at you know, late night type stuff, and we still do late night events and stuff, but even when I was a kid in youth group back in the day, and I went to very like buttoned up church type stuff.

But it was just like, look, you got a lot of teenagers, it's nighttime, they're away from their parents, and it wasn't that hard to sneak away.

Right.

Um so yeah, well, and it created really easy, you know, conversations about their convictions and stuff.

So it it created an avenue for me to have that relationship with those kids.

But so what you're saying.

When it came to the parents, like they they were just living in a delusional world.

Yeah, and what you're saying is even when they would drop their kids off at church, any environment, yes, that their kids were like, I'm away from my parents, this is a chance for me to to like explore that even at church.

So if they were somewhere else, like they were in a football game or you know, a movie, it's like take that and ramp it up to a billion percent.

It it just diminishes trust because that control is so there.

So you're you're saying that the more control you have seen in terms of that hyper iron fist approach, you've never seen that really work out in the end.

Yeah, someone gave me the analogy yesterday of like talking about freedom and boundaries and control.

It's like you let your dog have freedom by letting it out into the backyard to kind of like run around, but you have like a pretty good fence.

So I mean my shock them when they get too far to the street.

That's true.

That's intense.

But shock collars for children.

You have a high enough fence that it can't jump over, and there's like a there's a strong boundary.

You don't let your dog out into the front yard to experience that same level of freedom because it's gonna run into the road and get get injured.

So I think as parents, so it's like controlled freedom.

Yeah, to give them strong boundaries, strong boundaries, and strong boundaries that communicate the values that you have and you know, articulating those values so that when they are quote unquote led into the front yard, they understand what the fence was doing.

Which is like college.

Right.

Yeah.

That's a that's a good way to look at it.

And I think that the reality is teenagers are gonna start having these feelings, hormones kick in, it's a normal part of life.

In most of human history, you know, I mean, gosh, even my grandma, my grandmother, I was like, my grandmother she passed away, my last grandparent, she passed away um a couple weeks ago.

She was 87.

But my dad just turned 70.

So I was like, wait a minute.

And I think she may have been 86 and a half, like she was almost 87.

And I was like, Well, dad just turned 70.

And I was like, hey dad.

How old is your mom?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he said, Oh, yeah, she got married at 14.

I think she had me at 16 and a half, 17 years old.

Wow.

And that wasn't that's it, this was small town 1950s in rural Missouri.

So that wasn't like some scandal.

It was like, yeah, you know, you pick your person and and whatever.

So even in previous generations, like the idea of should I let my it wasn't should I let my teenager go on a date.

It was like, should I let my 14-year-old get married?

You know, so we've come an interesting place where in some ways our culture, we try to delay that a little longer in our kids very often.

And at the same time, we live in an even more sexualized culture that has more negative um areas of exploration.

Right.

And so you've got to be really careful not to create too much of a controlled environment because it's that that same energy is gonna go other places.

And it might go other places anyway.

I'm just saying it's harder to control than you think.

And for most of human history, there's been a recognition of like, yeah, this is actually an age.

It's the season of life where this is the season of life when this stuff starts to happen.

So let me let's ask that.

Should you let your 14-year-old get married?

I don't think so.

I don't think so either.

I guess depends on your culture.

Yeah, I'm gonna say a hard, I'm gonna say a hard no.

What is the what's what's going to be the advantage of your families you know?

Joshua said, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

I say, as for me and my church, no 14-year-olds get married.

I feel like I can stand by that.

Oh, for our church, yeah, definitely not.

Oh, yeah, 100%.

Um, all right, so No, for sure not.

So high school.

High school.

When you entered high school, Madison, what year would it have been?

Your first year of high school, roughly.

2009, 2020.

2009.

That sounds about right, yeah.

Um, because I knew you back then.

Yeah.

So I entered high school in 1998.

Yeah, sounds right.

1998.

So let's go to 2009, Madison, freshman in high school.

Um unfortunate.

You know, it's an unfortunate situation.

I mean, what was your dating pre that year?

What was what was your understanding of dating?

Like what did what was your I think I had a long-term relationship with a girl, and that was just not.

And we talked about that la last time, I think.

It was like you just you you saw each other, you know.

No, no, no.

That was middle school.

So like eighth to ninth grade.

Maybe it was it was ninth grade.

Okay.

It wasn't eighth grade.

That's the first time you had like a person that you were exclusive.

She likes me, I like her, and we we we talk, we gotcha.

And I think what was unfortunate about that is we became the same person.

So like everyone in our school could identify us as the th the same.

Was it a smaller school?

It was a smaller school, yeah.

But it was like our our identity became about each other.

Yeah.

It was like it wasn't Madison, it was Madison and Yeah, and the X.

And the X.

Let's call the X.

Yeah, it's all good.

Um Okay.

And so by high school, you were starting to have what what was your parents' approach to that?

Were they cool with it?

Were they?

Um So my parents had a pretty And your your parents might I see your face.

Yeah, like, are my parents gonna listen to this?

And yeah, then what can I say?

They might.

Well, they might, and I've been open about you know my family's dynamics.

So my parents met and were unmarried when they got pregnant with me.

Okay.

And so they were pregnant really young and they And really didn't want that to happen for you, I'm sure.

Yes.

And so it wasn't necessarily they weren't, you know, all about they didn't, again, they didn't do anything wrong in this, but they weren't all about like fostering intense values, they were just about avoiding that story.

So and I'm I and I know your parents and I love your parents.

So are you saying it was more in the like it was like whatever you do, don't have sex, but if you do there's condoms in the drawer, yeah.

Okay, so it was more of like, please don't go down the path we did because it made life so hard, even though you're the result of that.

Yeah, right.

So yeah, and my my parents, my dad was married before he married my mom, and their relationship, I mean, it's uh yeah, yeah, it's not a storybook thing either.

So and I think that's the the the problem, I think, with with every parent is like we have our own personal stories that we carry pretty personally, yeah.

And it's hard not to only see that as the only option for your kids.

Well, I've known it's funny you say that.

Some of the parents, when I was a youth pastor that had the hardest, like not you're not dating a guy, I'll like beat him up kind of thing if he ever comes around.

We're actually people who I know from their stories were pretty sexually promiscuous.

Right.

So it's like, hey man.

Well, because they were burned in that way.

So it's yeah, they it's almost like two, they don't create the possibility that maybe their kids won't have that same story, even just based on temperament.

Right.

They'll say, like, I don't want my kids to become me, and I definitely don't want my kids to date the me back then.

Yes.

So I will like, I will, I will fight to make that not happen.

Yeah.

So okay, so you were starting to have relationships.

How did that go?

How did that what was I mean?

Not again, not super great, but I mean, in high school was when I met Hannah, who's my wife, and so that serious relationship turned into, you know, long-distance college relationship, turned into a marriage eventually.

Now you're two children, I have two children.

Third on the way?

Yep.

No.

Just teasing me.

No, no more kids.

No more kids.

Two two awesome kids, uh, two boys.

And you guys have been married how long?

Seven years.

So you married your high school sweetheart.

Yep.

It's kind of hard to tell high schoolers not to date.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that our story, again, it's like the thing where it's like the personal story.

I don't think our story is everyone's story or should be everyone's story.

But I think most people, this is my general, my general advice to the high schoolers, is if you're not like fully really into that relationship, break up when you graduate high school.

Because then you got kind of like if you're like two years go by and you're like, I still think we should date, then great, read redate that person.

Well, you know, the funny thing is when I look at our church, it's amazing, like other people.

A lot of people, yeah.

We had that I was your youth pastor.

There was a there were a fair number of marriages happening right as a result of the youth group because you and Hannah, but you met at school, but then like Taryn and Robertson, who are people that still go here and are involved, they they Bride and Savannah.

Briden and Savannah.

They didn't date in high school, but they were friends in high school.

And in so it's it's it happens.

So yeah, I was in the same boat.

I married my high school sweetheart.

Megan and I did not start dating until right at the end of my senior year.

And she was a year younger than me.

So we had a long distance relationship because I went about a thousand miles away to college.

But up until Megan, I would say that my high school dating life was a disaster.

And what it was for me was I moved a lot, number one.

So you know, I was kind of lonely, I think, because I went to see two schools in seventh grade, three schools in eighth grade, three schools in tenth grade.

And you know, it's like I'm I'm gregarious and outgoing.

So I never like looked like a sad little I wasn't like I'd show up in a new school and be like, hey, what's up?

I'm the new guy.

Right.

And girls kind of liked the new guy.

Yeah.

You just had an instant intrigue factor that didn't last long.

I'm not I'm not bored with you.

Yeah.

I haven't.

You didn't I don't know anything about you.

Mysterious person from a different world, you know.

Um and so I I didn't have any close friendships.

My closest friend when I was in high school early on, especially was my little brother, who's six years younger than me, almost seven years younger than me.

Right.

Because he's the only person constant in my life.

So I go to a new school, I want to fit in, I want to kind of like have a I want to be cool, whatever it is.

And you know, it was just easy for me to have a girlfriend.

So I would I had a lot of girlfriends, a lot.

And they didn't last that long.

Um you know I I had a lot of relationships that were way too physical.

Um and that was a constant for me.

It was just girlfriends, crossing lines.

Okay, then I I I started to like really take my relationship with Jesus more seriously.

Wasn't like I had a moment where everything just was completely better, right?

But I made some commitments.

I was like, I want this part of my life to belong to the Lord, my dating life.

I knew it didn't.

I love Jesus, but I kept that part of my life as my thing.

Separate.

Yeah.

And I started a sophomore year, like, okay, Lord, I had some church experiences, and I was like, I I want to give you this part of my life.

And I still struggled, I still had issues with that.

But when Megan and I kind of started, I was I was on a I'd had the worst relationship I have ever had.

Like I I met a girl that I thought was all about Jesus.

I let my guard down, and I was complicit too.

It's not like it was her fault, but like it got really bad.

Um and then I was like, that's that was like a wake-up call.

And then like five months later, Megan and I started hanging out.

And Megan had this reputation of just super, she didn't date much.

Um, she was really just everyone really respected Megan.

She had a lot of character, and and so when I started dating her, it was like, well, I don't want to ruin this girl.

Like, I don't know, it's just something about her made me go, I want to do this the right way, right?

Even more than I wanted to before.

And I think even being long distance helped because then we had a year where we couldn't, right?

You know what I mean?

So some of those temptations that are common at that stage went away.

But I married my point is I fell in love and married my high school sweetheart.

So here you and I are, and it's like, well, should I let my high schooler date?

Well, we're both married to our high school sweetheart.

So we're just gonna say yes.

So there's like, hey, that's a possibility.

Why is it so hard to let them date or to navigate?

Why is it so hard to navigate as a parent?

Like you basically what we've said is they're probably going to, yeah, unless you are someone who takes a super hard line and be really careful about that, it often goes poorly.

They're probably going to date and it's gonna look in a yeah, but it's hard to navigate.

Why is it so hard to navigate?

I think because it's like what you said about the relationship previous to Megan, where it's like, isn't it odd that you're saying as a as a 16-year-old, like you were like this was like things like this was a wake-up call, and like it's like you know, it's like very wake up call.

Dating, I think, is the first like official foray into like it's before you have bills, it's before you have true, like intense responsibility, but like the it's like the first true responsibility of saying, like, I'm accountable to myself and I'm accountable to this person, yeah.

This is really affect other people and in the rest of my life.

Correct.

Yeah, and so it's the first time that that like weight is put on it, and so it's really easy to just want to avoid it.

Um and I think too, it it's hard because you don't want to be the third person in your child's marriage.

Did you ever have this dynamic where like your mom thought you should go out with someone?

She's like, hey, what about that?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the reason I say that is because I think the other end of that spectrum is there's the fear and like almost wanting to pretend like it's not a thing.

And the other side of that is sometimes navigating it as a parent is like, I think they would really be good with this person, and you almost get involved in like a matchmaker type way, or you're sort of like he's a he's available, he's he's go doing it.

Or you're you like the person that your kid is dating, and so you kind of treat them like family, and maybe earlier than you ought to, and it makes it like there's so many dynamics.

It could go, you could be too against it, you could also be too for it, right?

As a parent.

I know parents that have been too involved in like a it's like, hey, stop, you you don't shouldn't make your kid.

They just broke up with their boyfriend.

Okay, and let him not have one.

Yes, this is the and maybe this is the uh the filter that I think might be really helpful.

I'm thinking of it as that fence, because Proverbs 22, 6, this is kind of like the classic parenting verse, but it says train up a child in the way that that he should go, even when he's old, he will not depart from it.

And so um to not say like, hey, we're never gonna talk about this, we're not gonna do this, but rather establish the fence, establish the boundary.

Um, and I think the major boundary is dating ain't married.

Dating ain't married.

And what comes with that when you've clearly articulated like what marriage is, I think will give some healthy you know perspective on what on what dating is.

Okay.

Um so dating ain't married, um, I think one gives the student or the I say student, the teenager freedom to break up.

Right.

Because I think because of the weight of the responsibility of like entering that for the first time, when you do have that like serious relationship, that you're like, wow, I'm like, I'm like a normal person.

I'm an adult.

Like I you feel like older than you are, you know, you feel like responsible and it's fun.

But to say, like, hey, you're allowed to break up and that's actually okay, and it'll be painful, but it's not, it's not a divorce.

I tell students in the the youth group a lot when they start dating each other.

I was like, okay, just so you know, like I love you guys together.

You seem like really cute together or whatever, but y'all aren't married, so when you break up, or if you break up, you don't have to choose which one gets to stay at church.

It's not a there's not like a custody battle of friends.

I leave a youth group to you.

Yes, right.

Um you get the youth group, I get the friends.

It's nothing like that.

Uh huh.

And so dating ain't married means like, hey, you're allowed to break up and actually feel the freedom to, because this is gonna be a trial run in a lot of ways.

No, actually something my mom did that was really good.

Um, Megan and I, you know, we didn't start dating until the end of my senior year.

I had already chosen my college.

I wanted for a minute, I got really head over heels fast.

And um, so for a minute I wanted to change my my college to stay here.

And my mom's dad were like, no, you got scholarships to this school.

Right.

You've already no.

And that was a wise decision.

Right, because you weren't married.

Because we weren't married.

Right.

But then even when I went, my mom said, and it wasn't her trying to sabotage my relationship with Megan.

Um, it really wasn't.

She said, Hey, listen, just because I had like made promises to Megan.

Like I was so in love that it was like, we're we're gonna get married, I'm gonna wait for you.

You're right.

And she said, Listen, if you go to college and you meet somebody else and you have strong feelings for them, don't feel guilty if that happens.

And it was her way of saying, I know that you have you know, I know that in some ways you've you've already kind of crossed this line in your heart.

And if you crossed it a little early, it's okay to say I was wrong.

Yes.

And I was she and and I wasn't wrong.

Megan was the person for me.

And I actually knew I knew that.

Like, like I remember even thinking, you know, uh you have no idea, mom.

There's no one like her, right?

Yeah.

Um but when I got to college, it wasn't I didn't even have a moment of like, huh, this girl's it was like, ah, there's Megan's the girl for me.

Yeah.

Um I actually think she wavered a little bit more than I did in that season.

But that's okay.

Um, she came around, you know.

But my point is that was a really helpful thing my mom did because it did I didn't need to go to college thinking that if this high school relationship didn't make it, I had right failed or had betrayed, you know what I mean?

That was good.

And I think it it gives gives your kid room to know that like this isn't the final version of them.

Yes.

And and there's a and there's a way out of this.

Right.

And so if they see that as like this is a permanent deal, and you know, a lot of a lot of kids end up feeling that way.

And it might be like maybe this is the only person I can get.

And to break up with them actually shows like, no, no, no, there's there's other people you'll be able to date date sometimes.

A lot of times people in high school, especially early on, maybe it's the first time someone else has really been into them.

Right.

And one of the dynamics that you deal with a lot is that kids kids are far more attracted to people who are attracted to them.

Yes, you know, yeah, it's like, oh, okay.

Oh, they like you had a you had a crush on me in ninth grade.

Like I should have known this.

Like, well, I never even thought about you in this way until now, but now I think you're the most amazing person of the world.

Yeah, you have good taste.

Yeah.

So and so to give them that filter of breaking up, it's like, okay, then in the future, if they have the ability to break up and the skill set of breaking up, then they'll be able to do that as an adult when the stakes are higher and they get more.

So one of the filters that you've sort of seen is dating ain't married.

So Oh, dating ain't married, I think, is the only filter.

That's the filter.

Yeah, because then you start talking about things like, so that's the breakup side of the fence, and then there's another side of the fence, which is the physical stuff, where it's like, hey, God designed marriage to be the context in which sex happens.

And having a really articulated, like, this is why I believe this, even if you've made the mistake, I guess that's the hard thing with parents, is like we reflect on our own mistakes.

God has grace for our mistakes, but then we don't um feel comfortable casting the ideal vision for our kids.

We're like, it's always couched in like, I made this mistake, but XYZ, you know, like trying to process it out loud, but it's like, hey, like, no, this is actually why God made this for marriage.

And oh my gosh.

It's so we've this is a separate conversation.

We did a series last year called the Biblical Sexual Ethics.

So I don't want to get into all of that.

Sure.

But it's so funny how it's so easy in our culture for people to say, oh my gosh, marriage and sex and blah blah blah, like old, old school stuff, right?

If the entire world followed God's model, which was um pick a person, right?

A person, commit to them in front of your family and in front of God.

And and and then save the sexual stuff for afterwards, it's like you would literally, within a decade, if everyone did that, you would have you would completely eliminate sexually transmitted diseases.

Sure.

You would completely eliminate their crisis pregnancy.

I mean, in marriage, well, even marriage pregnancy is kind of a crisis because you're like, oh man, this changes everything.

But not like some life ruining.

And I say all that to say not like God knows what he's doing.

Right.

And in the system he's created is definitely for our good.

Yeah, and I think that's framing it in in the negative, I think that that it is like something that God wants for us.

100%.

And that there are certain things that require a strong foundation.

Like you need to build a building on a strong foundation, correct.

And you can't have the bells and whistles of the building without the strong foundation, if that makes sense.

I I've used an analogy with my kid, my oldest, um, and it's and it's a it's an analogy that's not perfect, right?

Sure.

But we talked about driving.

Right.

You know, like, hey, someone built these roads to be driven on.

Yeah.

So they they don't they want you to drive, but like, what if I just went backwards?

What if I went a 100 miles an hour?

There's all these, there's these guidelines and rules on the road, and they're not there to suck all the joy out of driving.

Right.

They're there to take something that is really good and really useful, but could go really poorly and guide it in the right way.

And the the analogy just being like, the Lord's done the same thing.

Like, he's the one who built the roads, he created sex, he created this relational thing, but he also created like a path, and if you stay on it, it's gonna go as well as it could.

So that's a different thing.

But your point is marriage is that, right?

And so the same dating ain't married is like, hey guys, dating ain't married, if you if you pull these things into the relationship now, when you're not married, it's putting a it's it's putting a weight on the relationship that it can't stand, right?

Like that the found again, the foundation's not there, though the license.

I mean, that's a it gets kind of weird when you say you don't have your your license.

Um, but it it's too difficult.

And it's easy, it's a little bit easier talking with um students who are like recently graduated or maybe have moved in with a couple of buddies, where I'm like, for your girlfriend, moving in with your girlfriend, like with your buddies when you're rooming together, there's like a certain level of like, I'm gonna be in my room, you're gonna be in your room, we're gonna kind of fight about this, but it's like I'd stop taking my stuff out of the fridge.

If the lease comes around, we can we can kind of get out of this.

And when you I just that just won't happen with your girlfriend, where it's like that stuff will happen, and if you don't have that foundation of like, we're actually gonna work on this, you actually might be ruining what could have been the right relationship by like starting all of that stuff early.

It's too soon.

It's like that's the burden that we're not able to bear right now because I'm always thinking of the back door out of here.

Well, no, like one of the dynamics I've had to do, even with you, is like at a pretty young age, we brought you on staff here, but we had to sort of slow roll you into certain roles.

Yeah.

And even now, we've had these conversations.

I think there have been times where I I involved you in conversations maybe a little earlier than I ought to have, and you it ended up feeling like pressure to you.

Sure.

Like I remember one time I let you in on kind of a leadership decision I was making, and uh and you you like got kind of emotional, and I was like, What is it, man?

Because I had a lot of respect for you.

So I was like, Well, I want you to learn these filters.

Right.

And you were like, Well, just the person.

It was I was letting someone go.

Yeah, yeah.

And you were like, they're just my friend.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

I was like, I uh I didn't think about it like that.

I was more like, well, you know, this is the right decision, and Madison is someone I see being in a leadership role.

So I want I want him to kind of understand some of these dynamics.

Yeah.

But in reality, I was just like But I just wasn't ready.

Can you say Yeah, and I I wasn't ready for it.

Yeah, and so all that happens, and we can promote people into failure in jobs.

Um, you know.

And that's yeah, and again, that's when you're talking with your teenager about a relationship that's going really well, that they're wanting to pursue a sexual relationship and they're wanting to pursue, you know, like they want to check their phone.

Don't check their phone.

No.

But just don't let them have a phone.

Yeah, right.

Listen to our podcast about phones earlier.

Our our episode on that was pretty good.

No.

Um But how do I know they want to?

Are they uh 14 to 17 and or 18 and are they a person?

Like that's just something you have to do.

I know it's a joke.

Um okay.

So dating ain't married, that's the filter.

At least, yeah, as I've processed it out.

Sure.

I would add another dynamic is don't add to the pressure as a parent.

There, dating ain't married, your families aren't joining.

Don't like what you're saying was And I've kind of already talked about some of this stuff.

Yeah.

High school dating is pressure.

Yeah.

I mean, there's the pressure of what people will think about you.

I remember this wasn't even high school, this was middle school for me, but I dated way too much.

But I found out that I had a girlfriend that I really liked.

Her name was Shannon and uh seventh grade, and I found out Shannon was gonna break up with me, and I was really heartbroken about it.

But I was also like, That's be fine.

No, I didn't want the stigma of having been broken up with, so I broke up with her instantly when I found out someone was like, She's gonna break up with you.

So I went and broke up with her.

There, and I didn't want to, but I also I I and she literally was like, I was gonna break up with you.

Yeah.

Well, I broke up with I want the st the the official story is I broke up with you because the actual pressure I was feeling is what will everyone think?

So much pressure on teenagers when it comes to dating.

And as a parent, if you can be someone who uh alleviates that pressure, maybe it's the pressure of feeling like a failure.

Look, here's a tr here's a reality.

A lot of people listening to this, if anyone ever does, a lot of people listening to this will have kids that they've raised to follow Jesus, and the kids maybe even tried really hard to do it the right way, but they crossed the line.

And it went, you know, something whether it's you know, sexual or whatever, it just went it got out of hand.

There's now a lot of pressure feeling like you failed God, right?

You've uh ruined your all that.

And as a parent, how do you teach them to follow Jesus but also be like Jesus?

Because Jesus dealt with people who were failures in the traditional sense all the time.

And yet he it was like he showed them compassion, love, and then there was still the go and sin no more dynamic of like we're going to we want to live right, right?

But I man, if your kids feel like if they were if you were ever to find out that they've messed up, that their life would be over.

Um and sometimes they feel that just because they're wrong and they exaggerate.

But if that's a reality, and you're like, oh, if I ever found out, they're well, hold on, I that's a lot of pressure.

Right.

And now that we don't tend to perform great under pressure, it takes a lot of work and time.

Um in fact, I I do basketball training with a lot of kids because you know I'm I'm such a good athlete.

Um I'm just obsessed with basketball.

And uh this I was working with a kid and his dad was watching him play in a game, and he's pretty new to the sport, but he's got an opportunity to play at the school that he's at.

And so he just had moments where in the game he just did silly stuff, and the dad was like, What's that?

I was like, it's pressure.

He's not used, he doesn't do that when we train because it's just me and him.

There's no pressure.

Now you add people watching, you know, there's a score, and in that same scenario, all of a sudden he's like tense and all that.

Well, because pre people have to learn how to perform under pressure.

There's so much pressure with dating and all the dynamics that go along with that, all the heart strings that are you know tied up in that.

As a parent, don't add to the pressure as much as you can.

And sometimes I think the pressure is never talking about it.

That adds to the pressure.

Yeah, I was gonna say uh authentically checking in, and not just like I don't think that adds to the pressure.

Right, that's what I'm saying, is is is a good way to manage that because it's not like you're rooting for the relationship so much that they feel like they can't break up, and it's not like you're against the relationship so much that it feels like they should.

And I'll also say, too, like I think a parent probably has maybe one or two chances to to really and genuinely kind of call a shot in terms of saying, like, hey, I really I really do think that you should break up with this person.

And I think the parent should probably also really be right in that sense because if they're not right, and that is the person that they're gonna marry, and that's the dating relationship into marriage that you know gets experienced.

It's like I think as a parent, it would have been better to kind of hold your tongue and you know, wait a minute.

Like, um, and so just be really discerning and um sparing with your like hard advice where you're like actually this person Yeah, probably see pray a lot.

And I would say if you're married to someone else and you're raising in a two-parent household, man, really talk this out with your spouse.

Definitely.

And spouses be able to be to have these conversations.

That's where you process it, not where you're because if you're divided in this as a couple, you know, if the wife is all about the road and the that's gonna create all the kid'll just choose right sides.

And so we went over the boundaries and some thoughts there, and I think just like not a boundary but a goal that might just be helpful to instill in terms of the values is like here's a values as boundaries, but this is a value as a goal.

Is like they should share the same conviction and direction of life as you.

Like if you're gonna date someone, like just make sure that they're going in the same direction.

Not that they have the same passions, not that they have a family that makes sense, not that they haven't made mistakes, but that the direction that they're going.

Like you look at the disciples, like you would not be like, those guys are gonna be really like close friends.

Well, they were all on work together.

They were on very different levels and even different stages of maturity.

Right.

But they were all moving in the same direction because they were all following Jesus.

And I think the key there is like, man, having a relationship.

Like it's weird because I don't, it's like I'm the pastor of this church.

And so, on one hand, I don't want all of our high school students dating each other in the youth group.

Because I used to be a youth pastor and I know it comes with some complications.

Yeah, we don't we don't do our youth group.

You're not out there matchmaking kids in the youth group.

No, right, which is good.

Right.

At the same time, it's like for parents, it'd be like, well, if they're gonna find a boyfriend or girlfriend, I'd really like that to be someone at church.

Yeah.

And I get that.

Yeah.

Because I Megan and I actually went to the same church, and you and Hannah, and Roberson and Taryn, and Savannah and Bryden, and you know, even Alex and Heidi, and like church has been a link for so many people here.

Like, so I get it.

On one hand, no, because it yeah, it creates all this drama.

But on the other hand, it's like, well, yeah, when I think about my son, if he started dating as a 15, 16-year-old, and that was the f and it was someone that goes to church, yeah.

I'm like, well, yeah, that that's it could be worse.

That would be yeah, that would be great.

Yeah.

And it's with that caveat of breaking up isn't a divorce, so you don't have to leave the church when they break up.

But but yeah, just giving them that goal of saying, like, hey, same direction, same focus, same, same core value of and I and going to church is not the exact same thing as following Jesus.

Correct.

That's in that's important.

I think following Jesus comes with a lot of like um self-respect, and with with that self-respect comes respect for others.

And so I've I mean we've had students in the in the youth break up for very legitimate reasons that we're like, I really love this person, but not right now because they're crossing a boundary.

We're not like on the same core value thing, and that's totally fine.

It's awesome.

Um, and so you know, just having those boundaries, those expectations, or I guess goals to move forward would be helpful.

Okay, so recapping, um, it's a stage of life where they're probably going to.

And if you you can try the hard line, not in my house, not under my roof thing, that um experientially I it a lot of things have a lot of things have to line up for the yeah.

Well, and it sets them up for failure.

It sets it sets the current the current situation up for secrecy and the future situations up for failure.

Yeah, and there obviously people will have different convictions and say, yeah, I do it that way and I've had success.

That's that's fine.

We've just said I've seen that.

I have I do know people who are married and seem to have really healthy marriages, and that was their story.

I also know a lot that are the other direction.

So there's that.

They're probably going to.

This is a reality of their stage of life, just like people used to get married at 14, 15, because that's the age that those things start to really wake up.

Right.

So then creating an environment that is low pressure, but I would say comfort level with transparency, so you can have those conversations, and dating ain't married.

Yeah.

So that takes the pressure off, but it also sets the boundaries.

What's appropriate for marriage?

And you can involve your kids in that conversation.

Hey, what do you think is appropriate in marriage?

Right.

What do you think's not?

Like, and if they say I think sex is appropriate outside of marriage, cool.

Do you think raising babies is appropriate outside?

Well, no, I wouldn't want to raise a baby with someone.

Well, okay, well, then one thing leads to another.

Sure.

Um, so you know, have those conversations, but it's not so much of a should I let them?

It's a how can I help them navigate it?

How can I help guide them, teach them in the way they should go?

Yeah.

Like it's like scripture says.

And um, yeah, it's tough.

It's tough.

Be on the same page with your spouse, pray a lot.

I think you summed it up great.

Yeah, there you go.

So lots of things.

Yep.

There's there's how do we help your high school kids navigate dating?

Thanks for listening, y'all.

Yep, talk to y'all soon.

Bye.

Bye.