Midweek Podcast - Understanding and Preventing Church Hurt

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Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Midweek Podcast.

Today we have a special guest with us, Daniel Griesbeck.

Daniel Griesbeck, yes.

A his hands OG, I believe.

I guess so.

Yeah.

We started going here in 2006.

That's before I started going here.

I think so.

When did you start coming?

2000, probably 2006.

No.

2007.

Okay.

I got here in 07.

Yep.

I was here before you for sure.

Really?

Because I was here on the first Christmas Eve in the building.

Oh, yeah, I wasn't here for that.

But I came shortly after.

So either way, we've all been here for a long time.

And Daniel, you have uh you have worn a variety of hats over the years here at his hands and helmets.

Actually, helmets, yes.

You have actually worn helmets too.

Um just tell us a little bit real quick about sort of your history at his hands.

Yeah.

Um, and then we're gonna jump into the topic that you're going to sort of lead us through today, which is a class that you just taught on overcoming and preventing uh something you call church hurt, which I think is a really cool topic.

But go ahead and give us like who this man sitting across.

All right.

So I I wound up coming to his hands after searching for a new church.

We were searching for a new church after serving in a kid's ministry at a much smaller church, and kind of got hurt by the process.

We were very dedicated to serving the kids in that my wife and I both.

And I came out of a meeting with the leader of the kids' ministry once, and I was just this is not where I want to be anymore, really.

It just there was no focus being given to the kids.

Would you mind naming the church and the person who will not know?

Well, and what's sad is okay, so we left, and then the woman who was overseeing their kids' ministry moved away very shortly thereafter.

So I don't really know what happened to their kids' ministry after that, but we were seeking a place that put importance upon kids and serving kids.

And we looked around.

Um, we had two little infants at that time.

And actually, our middle one was barely born at the time that we decided to do that, pull the trigger and just move on.

And we wound up here.

We saw the big sign on the wall that said, party on Sunday.

Yeah, that was the first of the party on Sunday.

And I was like, Curiosity got me.

And so we came, and I remember we came twice.

And the second time after sitting in our you know, big room, we call it, I said, This feels like home.

Like this feels right, it feels good.

Of course, you know, there were like 300 people in there.

It was cavernous.

Oh man, it was so cavernous, but like so.

The thing is, like for anyone that's watching, listening, that um you have to understand that the original people who started his hands bought this Kmart and converted it into a church before the church really existed.

Right.

So it wasn't like that it was started in a smaller building and they outgrew that.

Yeah, it was like, yeah, here's what we're starting with.

Right.

And the big room seats, I mean, I think right now we have like 1,700 chairs in there, close to 2,000 chairs.

And I know that when they first launched, they were having like 150, 200 people in a room.

The music was so loud.

Oh, there was no humanity to mute the music.

Even if there was humanity, so loud.

Susan back in the day, who's in charge of that, she ran the volume.

She ran it loud.

But either way, you were here in those days.

So early on, and then we very quickly got involved in the kids' ministry here.

And I had been working in the kids' ministry, as I said, in that church previously, and jumped right in, started working, worked with both of you in the kids' ministry.

Yeah, kids' ministry is actually how I met you.

Yes.

Yeah, my experience that we we used to have a children's pastor role uh when I first started here working with the youth, and I had a meeting like a year in, and it was a weird meeting because Steve and and Doug, who are my bosses, the way the meeting started, they called me into their office and they said, you know, Justin, sometimes people just don't work out.

That's how the meeting started.

You thought it was you.

Oh, I'm like, I'm getting fired.

I'm done.

Um, and then they said, We've decided to let the children's guy go.

And I remember it felt bad because at first I was like, oh, thank God.

And I was like, wait a minute.

Oh, poor you know, I was like, Right, you felt bad.

Whatever.

And then they told me, and you're gonna start running the children's ministry too, starting a week from Sunday, which was like nine days away.

Real quick.

It was real quick.

So it was kind of it was crazy.

Um, and uh, and I had no experience with children, right?

And so as far as I didn't have kids yet, and I didn't have never done children's ministry, I was really intimidated by it.

And I remember you were one of the first people that I met, and I thought you were incredible, and I was like, man, I'm so glad this guy's part of this.

I really need his help.

Yeah, and you can't.

Well, we had some conversations.

I remember Justin and I talking on the phone.

I was at my mother-in-law's house on a Saturday afternoon, and we were on the phone, like trying to figure out what are we gonna do to like tomorrow.

Yeah, it was there were a lot of Saturday days like early on in the kids' ministry of just like figuring out who's who's speaking, who's doing what.

Well, so and I'm not trying to like this isn't about me, but like for a long time, I was the high school, junior, high, and elementary person.

So we had we had uh middle school would be on Wednesday nights, so I would like prepare for that, and then high school was on Thursday nights, so I prepare for that, and then kids ministry happened on Sunday, and because I had the other ones, I couldn't really, it was hard to get ahead.

Right, right.

I mean, I would be really organized, but I couldn't give my whole mind to because I let the dominoes fall before you got to the next one.

And so Friday I'd be like, all right, time to get all the kids' stuff together.

It was it was you know, but we got through it and you were a huge part of it, and that's why I joked about you wearing hats and helmets because you used to play a role when we had a little superhero theme back in the day, and you were Captain Super.

You were Captain Super.

Yes, and Captain Super wasn't like a guy wearing a bike helmet, he was this was a full like mech suit.

Yeah, we had a guy who was a professional uh armor builder.

Yeah, cosplay armor.

He was like a cosplay, yeah.

And he made this it was awesome.

It was blue, shiny blue.

Shiny blue, metallic blue, and you wore it very well.

Oh well.

You wore it very well.

As long along with Alex, who are uh who's over here on this couch.

He was also sometimes we had just like many people have been Iron Man.

Many people have been Captain Super.

Have many people been Iron Man?

I don't know.

Many have been Batman.

Let's go to Batman, yeah.

Oh, actors.

Yeah, yeah.

I was going more com I think in the comic.

I don't know anything about comic books, actually.

There are superheroes that multiple people have been that super Captain America, that's one.

Right.

Yeah.

Why are we talking?

Okay, you were Captain Super.

Fine.

So yeah, so it was, you know, that time was great for me, great for my family, because it got us here all the time.

And we were very involved and you know, ultimately began teaching under your direction and leadership, teaching the kids.

I know, listen to me.

Maybe my directional leadership.

That's like a phrase of that's awesome.

But honestly, I think the better way to say it is like help.

Yeah.

That was me.

You helped me get teaching.

Can you help me, please?

Yes.

So started teaching and then ultimately took over, you know, our fourth and fifth grade ministry for a few years and ran that.

And, you know, it and here I am.

This is, you know, stop doing that.

The Lord kind of brought me out of that and you know, gave me a lot of comfort in that, you know, I've still have things for you to do.

I'm still have plans, but your time doing this is done.

Let it go.

And that's not easy.

But yeah, I mean, it wasn't that simple, but let it go, Daniel.

I think for over 15 years, you've always been super involved.

And I think it should be known too.

Like Daniel was part of our staff for a while running our fourth and fifth grade, but that was always your second thing.

You you had a full-time job that you're very I mean, it's very full-time.

Yes.

And so that was, you know, you were working here extra and just making all that because the fourth and fifth grade is big enough that we really needed someone to it, couldn't just be a volunteer gig.

You did a really good job.

You did a great job with it.

You really did.

You represented to me the same thing you represented to Justin because I was in a similar road.

I was doing middle school, high school, that's right.

Oh, yeah.

And fourth and fifth grade.

And so that's when Daniel came on to help me out.

So you've been the the strategic helper for many years.

You have, man.

You've done a great job.

And now you're uh you're part of our teaching team.

And so we just kind of launched this whole set of classes, and we're gonna keep doing classes on a regular basis because we want to give people opportunities to learn.

And you had a class uh just last week that I thought was so interesting.

I like we we should record a podcast about this.

Yeah.

And so it it the title of your class was Overcoming and Preventing Church Hurt.

So maybe we could just start here.

What is church hurt?

Like what is that well that's not the full title.

Oh, what was the full title?

A scriptural approach.

Overcoming I'm sorry.

And preventing church.

Which is important.

We'll talk about that.

Yeah, which is the opposite of deconstruction.

So yeah, so maybe where do you want to start?

I mean, I thought maybe that would be good, or maybe how did you even what led you because I the way it worked, just kind of pull the curtain back.

I didn't dictate topics to the people who were teaching.

I got you guys together.

I said, Hey, you're the teaching team that we're working with now, and I want you guys to go pray about what you want to teach on.

And I was really, I had no idea what everyone was gonna come back with.

Yours really caught me by surprise.

Yeah.

So talk about that.

Yeah.

This, you know, this idea was not even my first idea.

There were four ideas I gave you, I remember, and all of them were things that I kind of thought, okay, these are things I've always wanted to teach about.

You know, but I wanted to get through a list and give you a good list.

And I had recently been spending time on YouTube.

Like all of us are, you know, we find ourselves in that rabbit hole sometimes.

And I kind of got in the rabbit hole watching videos about cults and heresies and all these things.

And, you know, I just spend my lunch hour.

I work from home, so I spend my lunch hour eating a sandwich, watching you know, watching YouTube.

Yeah.

And I I started seeing videos pop up because you know the algorithms are brilliant.

Whatever you're searching for, they're gonna feed it to you.

And so, you know, gradually that led to these videos about deconstruction.

Various, you know, former pastors, former Christian musicians, whatever, going through a deconstruction process.

Yeah, and describe that for people that aren't familiar, like what is the kind of what is deconstruction?

There's it's kind of a movement.

Yeah.

Um, in the last decade or so, I feel like it's it's that word has become more It has.

It's become almost trendy, really.

So what is that in your mind?

What is deconstruction?

Aaron Powell Deconstruction is the idea of stepping back from whatever you were involved in, church.

Um, even people do it from, you know, that didn't even go to church, but they consider themselves Christians or believers and pull themselves back in a crisis of faith.

They're kind of like, I want to understand what I truly believe in when they see the challenges the world throws at them.

They go, you know, they've got to wrestle with that.

And the wrestling is this deconstruction process, like picking apart your faith.

And of course, it's been gloriously defined in so many, you know, unique ways to to kind of make people feel better about what they're kind of going through.

But it's always, I started to notice a pattern to it.

It was that the people that were talking about deconstruction and about decon, you know, deconstructing my faith and and stepping back, they were also deconverted.

Like they'd no longer believed in Christ.

They were pulling themselves so far back and removing that in a way I felt like they were destroying their faith.

And it kind of scared me.

Because I'd been through different times where I'd over my life where I've I've deconstructed.

You know, looking back on now what I know it to be, I'm like, you were questioning what you believed.

You maybe saw things in church that rubbed you the wrong way.

And you're like, is this even for me?

Is this real?

And so you kind of went through a similar process yourself.

Absolutely.

Just didn't have a word to know what it was.

And it wasn't until I was sitting across from one of my good friends having coffee one morning, and he's like, I'm deconstructing.

And I'm like, what's that, man?

Tell me, like, what's going on with you?

And as I listen to him, you know, and the hurts that he has and the things that he was going through, I'm like, this needs to be talked about.

Yeah.

Like people are really dealing with this nowadays.

And then of course you go back to we're being fed stuff so often from so many sources we probably shouldn't trust, but we're being fed by algorithms and fed by things that tell us, you know, these are these this must be what you're interested in, so I'm just gonna pump it all at you.

All the information.

You better believe it.

Is that like I mean you're pretty familiar, I would imagine, with the same concept.

Like, is that sort of your understanding?

Yeah, I would probably call it demolition when it comes to the the faith or deconversion is probably because what you you seem to have a distinction between like your own personal deconstruction and like a uh like I'm walking away from the faith entirely.

So how close did you get from having like a crisis of faith versus a crisis crisis of like uh trust in the institution?

Oh that's that's a phenomenal question.

You know, I early on when I was in my twenties, I got eight, you know, probably eighteen to twenty college years.

You know, I got close.

Because I was, you know, I went to a liberal arts school.

I was, you know, and it was a formerly Baptist school.

So it had pulled away from the Southern Baptists.

That was my same so my I would liberal arts college in Kansas City, Missouri that used to be associated with Baptists, and they had actually been like booted out of the Baptists because they were too like that and literally a year before I got there.

So same, same thing.

You're in this, you know, the whole world's being thrown at you.

Right.

And I really went through this period where I wanted to explore and understand what's out there.

And is my does my faith hold up?

And it did.

It held up.

You know, I I used to um, you know, I used to try to argue and con converse with friends and try to, you know, win arguments for the faith, and I was terrible at it.

And and honestly, I felt like I just walked away going, I don't even know how to defend my own faith.

Yeah, I don't know how to do this.

And I wanted to just give up on it.

But um it was shortly after college, I spent a lot of time alone.

Um, I had moved to the Atlanta area, I was alone a lot and just spent time praying.

That was the first thing I did.

I was just like, Lord, what's going on with me?

Why am I dealing with this?

And then it wasn't until a couple years later, even as I um, as I was really examining whether it was time to move on from serving, you know, so regularly in church and everything, that I kind of went through a a period of that too.

And that was more about the church, you know, more about what's my role in the church?

How do I contribute to the church that I feel like I'm a part of?

And so it never got me to the point that I was ready to walk away from my faith.

And in fact, I would argue it made my faith stronger.

Yeah.

So there's kind of this if you do it in a way that's true, that you're really trying to understand better the Lord and how you're gonna fit, I think most people who deconstruct it that time wind up better.

They wind up back, you know, closer to the Lord, closer to Yeah, you were you were doing some deep uh reflection on what do you really believe versus what you've just been raised to believe, and had a lot of questions.

And um and I mean as you're talking about it, you're right.

I mean, it's one of those things where that process is a healthy process, right?

We should have a well thought-out faith.

We should have a faith that, you know, we always uh some of that I say pretty often, like, at least in my family, anything that's true should hold up to scrutiny.

So if it's scrutinized, but the deconstruction thing, and we'll move on, um, it's just been this massive wave of you know, you mentioned like Christian musicians and Christian pastors.

I think a lot of times, I mean, you've probably experienced this, you were probably, I was too, put into a kind of church leadership position very young.

And probably before you had actually had a chance to really deeply personally consider every angle of the yeah, that's a that's a growing process.

And I think the entire time you have to be really conscious of like taking the the idols away of like the idols of church leadership or the idols of attention or the idols like and that's a very healthy process, is like what you're saying.

But I think there's been a lot of people in like the sort of interesting Christian church world who, you know, it's like you can go you can go right out of high school college and into a church leadership role and be you know a Christian musician, you can be a pastor, you can be on on staff at a church.

And the church, the church you're part of, is almost every bit as much a part of your faith as your your actual you know faith, so to speak.

And then all of a sudden something happens and you get disillusioned, you know.

Um, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Disillusioned is a great word.

Working at church, you see people and you see people.

I mean, I had a I interned at a church in college.

Where you work.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

I mean, I worked at I'm not gonna go through the whole story, but I worked at a church in college and uh well, interned for two years and loved it until I didn't.

Right.

And I just saw some so the veneer kind of came off, and I was like, oh man, I was the that person lied and they're in leadership and know what's going on here.

And it made me sort of pull back.

Yeah.

Um, but I think the sad thing is a lot of people pull back and never come back.

Right.

You know, that seems and the deconstruction movement has definitely been a decommitting.

And if you're being fed information that's helping you justify that decision, right, there becomes kind of an element of pride to it.

Like, look what I did.

I deconstructed.

Yeah.

I'm somehow, you know, better than you now because I've done this thing and I look at left.

And because the people are being raised up onto some sort of pedestal by the audience they have hearing them talk about.

Yeah, I see it mostly like on people who I know who have done that, and I'm still friends with them maybe on social media.

And it's amazing how often like their posts are just like angry pot shots taken at Christianity, at Christians all the time.

So all that to say, your your class kind of you're you're doing a class that's sort of designed to help help prevent that experience by naming this this idea, which I've heard before, but it's the idea of church hurt that a lot of times what maybe is the catalyst for people having those those, I don't know if this is for me, what um, is they are they experience some kind of hurt in the church and they associate that with Christianity as a whole, with Jesus, with the Bible, whatever, and they're like, I just have to leave the whole faith.

And that that can happen.

So what would you define church hurt as?

That's great.

Um, church hurt is, and I and I had to come up with a definition because everybody has one.

Right.

You know, I mean church hurt's real.

People experience this stuff, and they experience it in so many different ways.

Right.

So many different things happen that lead people to it.

So it was a um, and now you're gonna ask me and put me on the spot here, but it was a it was a physical, spiritual or emotional reaction in a person when a church leader or other member acts in such a way as to elicit such feelings.

Okay.

So if I have if I have a physical spiritual or emotional reaction, because someone in the church did something that elicited that reaction.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

It's that vague.

Well, no, it's truly that vague.

It's vague, but it's also like, hey.

It's like also trying to define the word hurt like it is yeah.

Hey, no, I mean it makes sense because there are people who have been hurt in churches by, I mean, absolutely horrific things that were like somewhat I mean, true abuse has happened.

Yep.

And then there have also been people who have left the church for church hurt because of maybe the most I mean, minuscule thing you could imagine.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I've seen that too.

And so it probably needs to be kind of a broad definition because it's not like you know, it's not like everyone has the same standard of what needs to happen before I feel hurt.

Right.

I don't want anybody to feel like if I put a definition of church hurt up there, which I think we have to define in talking about church hurt, you have to define what is the church.

Right.

Because so many people blame it on the capital C church.

They'll say it's the capital C church.

Yeah, the whole church.

So you got to define the church and you gotta define what church hurt is.

But I think that when you're dealing with such an issue that's so personal and kind of touchy to talk about, if I go, it's this, if I define it so clearly as it's this thing, somebody who's dealing with that hurt may go, well, that's this is not the class.

I'm not gonna get the help I need.

This is so, and I want to make sure that everybody can see, yeah, that's what happened.

I had a reaction, you know, and and it's a justified reaction in a lot of cases.

I had a I have an action or a reaction to unaction by somebody in the church.

Yeah.

That caused that that elicited this, you know, it caused this pain.

Oh, yeah.

And we all have those.

I mean, I'm like I've been at his hands for 17 years.

Um, I experienced church hurt at other churches.

Um I've experienced church hurt here.

Like at the church that I'm still at and work at.

There's no question.

There have been moments where I'm like, that really that hurt, uh, that bothered me.

And um yeah, so it's it's a common thing.

It's real.

I mean, it's it's out there, and so many people you never have, right?

Never no, that's good.

No.

I was his youth pastor and his pastor and his boss.

So I'm if he has experienced any church hurt, it's probably my fault.

Probably.

So it's good to hear that you have it.

It's also, I think, good to know what I liked about your definition was it wasn't just the leadership, because a lot of the times we imagine that leadership is the the cause.

So yeah, you've hurt me plenty, Justin.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

It's okay.

I forgive you.

Thank you.

All right.

Wow.

That's Matthew 18.

And I've just happened.

How about this?

I've hurt I've hurt plenty, I've hurt plenty of people in the church, but it it goes both ways.

I've hurt you too so much.

I'm sorry.

I forgive you.

Thank you.

Wow, you just this is what I was the class.

I mean this is it.

But um but when you said or by a member, and I think that the church is a community of people all pursuing Jesus, and as everyone's doing that, there is the ability to to you're gonna rub shoulders with people, you're gonna like hurt people, do things, step over boundaries, et cetera, et cetera.

And so it's not just that someone on staff at a church neglected some spiritual need or um did a commission of uh sin against you, but it also is the church community can hurt itself and hurt each other too.

So and that it's it's been happening since the church.

Right.

Period.

Since the church.

I mean James James talks about it.

You know, it's it's something that the first century church was dealing with.

You know, why do you quarrel among each other?

It's been going on.

So so in talking about this topic with people, I didn't, you know, you mentioned even it's deconstruction, it's kind of become a new thing.

We talk about it a lot nowadays, but church hurt has been around.

It's not it it as soon as you put people in a room together to worship the Lord, people are still people.

Yep.

You know, and we are going to hurt each other at some point along this process.

You know, as we as we grow and mature towards sanctification, we are we're gonna step on each other's toes along the way.

Oh, definitely.

I mean, that's yeah, 100%.

And uh and I think it's one of those things that everyone kind of knows, like I don't think anyone listening to this would disagree with.

Be like, of course, the church is filled with people and people are imperfect and people mess up, and even leaders in church mess up.

And so I understand that, but it's not until you experience it that you kind of it's just I think it's easy to be like, oh yeah, and I know that, and and I would never, I would never allow some something so some something human to completely and totally wreck my faith in a higher power and all that.

But it actually happens all the time because we can underestimate how intense our emotional reactions to things can be.

So one of the things I thought was really interesting about your class, like reading through your notes, was you defined these sort of six causes.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Six.

Five causes.

Five of them.

You want to add one while we're doing this?

And just now you'll have six.

Yeah.

Um, your five causes.

Yeah.

And they're not I can't take credit for it.

Um four of them I found um uh she's the managing director of the gospel coalition.

Okay.

Her name is Megan.

I can't remember off the top of my head her last name, but she had written an article.

She's written a book called Sying on Sunday, which is a book, it's 40 meditations on now.

You're gonna ask me about the title, and you didn't even ask.

But you know, the t there's a title to it.

Wrote this great article.

Yeah.

And she said, we've got to look at the sources of church hurt.

You know, if you really want to understand why we are hurt and what happens, you've got to understand the sources of it.

And and I found this in my research.

I found her article, and I just I just I can remember I was four of the five or her.

Four of the five, and then one I just had to tie tag on.

So you got one.

Yeah.

There you go.

Yeah.

One, that's that's huge, man.

I know.

That's huge.

I look everyone.

I give messages almost every Sunday, and it's like we're 2,000 years into the history of our faith.

I'm probably like probably even accidentally, I'm ripping somebody off.

It's like yeah, you what is left that hasn't been said before?

Yeah, you can't not, especially with such a tender topic.

People have been ripped, and I appreciate you doing that because that's something I actually really care about too.

If I say something on a in a message that is like, this is like this last Sunday was C.S.

Lewis, like this is who originated this.

Go look it up.

But what are the what are the five?

So uh we live in a fallen fallen world.

Okay.

I mean, that's obvious.

That you know, if you are a believer, you understand we live in a fallen world.

Yep.

Um, and the one that really, really just hit me like a ton of bricks when I was reading it is Satan hates the church.

He wants nothing more than to crash Jesus' wedding with his bride.

Nothing more.

And and and there's just example after example in scripture about how he wants to bring us down.

He wants to cause new believers to stumble.

He wants, you know, there to be quarreling in the church, all these different examples.

Um, and then one I mentioned earlier, I think people are weak.

We're just not in a place where we are, you know, we are not perfected in our holiness yet.

Yeah, we're weak people.

I mean, you look at the disciples, Jesus, the phrase, you know, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Yeah, comes from Jesus when he'd been in the garden praying before his arrest, and he asked the disciples multiple times, Will you please stand guard and watch?

I'm not gonna be gone long.

Please stand guard and watch.

And he comes back from praying, they're sound asleep.

And these are the his trusted, these are his people, his trusted uh he associates that with weakness.

He says, like your spirit is willing, you want to, yeah, but your flesh is weak.

Yeah, we're weak, we're kind of vulnerable, we're easily leads to so many things.

I mean, we're we have finite amounts of time, resources, energy, and so that kind of led to what'll be number five, but then the most obvious people sin.

Okay, and so not all church hurts are caused by direct active sin, but many of them are.

You know, many of them are because people sin.

Yeah.

And then the four the fifth one I added was expectations.

We have expectations.

We have we put expectations on you and on Madison and on others in church roles or even volunteers.

We put expectations on the worship at church and and we project these, and then when they're not met, we are hurt by that.

Yeah, you know, definitely.

So let's go through those five again.

So we live in a fallen world.

Yep, Satan hates the church, people are weak, people sin, yes, and we have expectations.

Yeah, sometimes gross expectations of what we you know, and Jesus didn't live up to expectations at all.

And so when I when I brought these to light, I used a lot of of her scripture that she had in this article, but found some others that just really cover, you know, we're fighting against something.

Every time we walk in the door of a church, we're also fighting against the fact that there's an enemy right outside the doors that hates it and doesn't want us in this building, doesn't want us at any church and wants to destroy it from the inside.

Yeah, no doubt.

No doubt.

And so for you understanding, I think first and foremost, there's this premise that and you know, I really see it in your second point, like Satan hates the church.

And that sort of implies that God baked into that is the implication God loves the church.

Absolutely.

You know, that's one of the hard things to deal with, is we're the bride.

And that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that Jesus picked a perfect bride.

Um I actually heard a pastor, I think it was Erwin McManus years ago talking about the the the church and how easy it is to bash the church.

Yeah, and he he kind of went on this church bashing thing that was like brilliant in how he did the message because you would agree with everything he said.

Right.

And he didn't set it up to where you knew where he was going with it.

And so, you know, the the church has done this and all the scandals and all that.

And then he said, Man, it's like you know, it's the bride of Christ that's an ugly bride.

Kind of was his and Jesus loves it.

Yeah and won't leave it ever.

And if you forget that Jesus loves his church, even amidst all of the junk, um, that's a dangerous place to be, right?

Because Satan wants you to he, of course he wants to isolate you.

I mean, that's the thing I see is so many people that have pulled away, maybe because they were hurt.

That not say again, it's not about me, but like when I was in college, I interned at this church, and my story is super fast because it relates to that, is I uh I was interning for free, um, ran the middle school ministry at a church that was about five to seven hundred people.

It wasn't tiny, and uh, you know, it was a good sized church.

And I, and Megan and I totally ran their middle school for about a year and a half.

Um, we were there every Sunday morning and we did the middle school thing while during they had two services.

One of the services, there was a kind of a Sunday morning middle school event.

We ran their Wednesday night middle school stuff and we did events and it was a lot.

And uh they kind of hinted to me that they were gonna hire me.

They didn't have a youth pastor, but a lot of little, a lot of carrots, you know, that's how I call it.

And I was excited about that to the point where I think it was my dream job.

And uh, but I knew it might not happen, it would take time.

So anyway, got married, was full-time college student, worked at a restaurant 30 plus hours at Chili's.

You've never told us that.

Working at Chili's.

Um, and and just the combination of being married, school, working that much, and and also doing that much of the church, I started to get pretty overwhelmed.

I think I said burned out, but I don't think I was burned out.

I think I was just young and I didn't even know what my limits were.

Right.

Right.

So I went to the pastor and I said, Hey, I um I don't know what to do.

I feel like super overwhelmed.

I'm I've been doing I'd been doing this for six or seven months post being married.

And it was just weighing on me.

And I told him, I just don't, I don't know what I can give up.

I can't obviously not gonna give up my marriage.

Right.

I can't quit school, I've got a year left, and I can't quit working because I have to pay the bills now.

Like I'm responsible for myself and for my wife.

And he said, Well, what if we paid you?

And I was I I did not expect that.

Right.

And I said, Oh, wow.

And so he asked me how much, and I gave him a really stupid small amount of money.

Like it was, it was I wanted it so bad.

40 bucks.

Oh, actually, I remember, I actually remember the exact amount.

And this was not the 1950s.

I I said uh uh$350 a week is what I said.

Wow.

And I would have I would have said yes to that in a heartbeat.

And they came back and said we can only do 150 a week.

And like I thought about it and I wanted it so bad.

I was like, well, maybe if I do that and then I also do this, and it just I just realized like I need to take care of my wife.

I need to, and I can pull back a little bit and still volunteer.

So I just said I I appreciate it.

I just that's I can't do that.

Yeah, you know, and maybe I could have.

Looking back, I was young.

Maybe I could have.

But either way, that's what I said.

I said no.

So we ended up saying, yeah, we're gonna kind of slowly pull back a little bit.

Well, some of the parents uh of the the kids started asking questions, I guess, because they they found out that we were gonna be less involved.

And one of the moms sent me an email that like an email thread that was going out.

Right.

She shouldn't have done that.

Right.

Even though she should not have done that.

And so I I say that.

But it she sent it to me, and in the email, some parents had asked, Why are Justin and Megan pulling back?

And this is what the pastor said.

He said, Justin asked us for money and he asked for more than we could afford.

That's not what happened.

Right.

I went into the meeting to say, I I need to step back.

He said, What if we paid you?

And I was like, Oh, um, okay, let me think about that.

And then I said, Well, what about this?

And I didn't go there to ask for money.

Right.

Ever.

And the way it was phrased was not totally a lie, right?

Like that was part of the conversation, but it was definitely phrased in a way that made me seem greedy.

Yep.

And that definitely insulated him from the parents all kind of were like, oh my goodness, you know, I thought that makes sense.

Yeah.

Let's leave him.

And that's not what happened.

Like it's just not what happened.

And I felt lied about, I was lied about.

Absolutely.

And it was, it was a deception.

Yeah.

And I felt really hurt.

Um, I really, I looking back, I think I I probably had him.

That pastor, I probably idolized him in my mind.

So it hurt expectations.

Expectations.

Um and it threw me to the point where I was like, I don't want to work at a church ever again.

Yeah.

I don't want to do this.

And I we pulled back from that church.

We kind of visited a church for a while, but we weren't super involved, and it was just sort of different.

And then a buddy called me up about his hands, and I told him the story, and he basically said, get over it.

He's like, Yeah, okay, man.

Churches, so you you had a negative experience at a church.

That's gonna happen a bunch in life.

No matter if you you need to get over it.

Right.

You need to call his hands.

I think you'd be a good fit there.

And now I've been here ever since.

So that was sort of a church hurt right before this church.

Yeah.

And, you know, well, and it's it's interesting because, you know, as as I was teaching this course and and putting it all together, which it did not exist prior to two months ago.

This was new, you know, something new I wanted to teach about.

So I needed to do the research, I needed to put this thing together, and was even doing so up until you know the night before I was out there, you know, full-time job and parent and all that.

But put this thing together.

And one of the one of the things I read this amazing article about a family who had spent time putting together an adoption ministry at a church.

Okay.

And the church just pulled back from it, just pulled back and said, We're not gonna do this, you know.

And they wanted, they were, you know, had plans to grow it, wanted to do this, thought that the church had been told, you know, this is the place to do that, this is the place to put this together.

And then the church backed out on them.

And and they dealt with similar just pain.

I mean, just anguish over I'm I've been giving my life to this cause, I've been giving this life to this church and and to growing this.

And you're pulling back.

And, you know, the article walked them through, you know, just every walked through everything they'd experienced, all the pain they felt.

But the topic of the article was to find the blessing.

And it's it's it's so hard when we're hurt to look for how God's going to use that.

Now, God didn't make it happen.

You know, I don't think God calls everything that happens to us good, right?

Bad things happen to us.

And that's again the product of we live in a all the four, five, you know, sources of church hurt here.

We live in this world where these things cause this pain.

The Lord gives us every good and perfect gift.

Right.

So, you know, I challenged everyone.

It was the last point I gave.

I challenged, I said, look for the blessing.

Look at, okay, right here, right now, you're in this class at a church who's addressing a topic that needs to be talked about.

You're here, you're being taught scripture, you're being taught at least a foundational approach to go out and stop it from happening in your life again, and stop it from happening in others' lives by finding people that you can share these scriptures with and share this knowledge and find the blessing.

And you go back to this article, pulling away from the church, pulling away from where they had been, a new opportunity came up.

A church that was seeking somebody just like them at that time had been praying, Lord, you know, let this happen.

You know, we need somebody in this role.

And here, here they were.

And the blessing was there.

I mean, that's a beautiful thing.

I mean, it's funny, I I hadn't thought about this in a long time, but whenever I um, because I had that experience at the church I was at, we left that church, and then we had about a year where we were sort of floating.

Yeah.

And then, you know, his hands came about.

Well, it wasn't until I started working here that I learned about the history of his hands, which wasn't much back then.

It was like a year and a half long history.

David Busters and some motorcycles is about it.

The month that his hands started here in Georgia was the exact month that all that happened to me when I was up in Kansas City.

And, you know, I remember thinking about that afterward, being like, wow, I was in a I was just in a mess for a little bit up there, feeling like the, you know, rug had pulled out, been pulled out from under me and head was spinning, all that kind of stuff, all those cliched statements.

And little did I know that, yeah, that exact time that and this is obviously where um I think God wants me.

And so, you know, there was a huge blessing in that.

And I think that that helps.

But for a lot of people, it's hard to see that.

Absolutely, it is.

I think the the thing that hits me in everything you say is like a couple things to reflect on.

Um, God does love the church.

Absolutely so Satan hates it.

Because Satan hates what God loves.

Absolutely.

You can almost know if Satan hates something, and how do you know Satan hates it?

He attacks it, whatever.

Well, he doesn't hate things that God doesn't love.

Like that's why he hates us, right?

Because God loves us.

And just you have to understand that that Satan wants you isolated.

He wants to pull you out of a support system.

Um and so be very careful with that.

And then the expectations thing, you know, I think something that's interesting is because of all of the you know, people are weak and people and people in church are weak, people in church sin, all that kind of stuff.

Um sometimes our expectations in church can actually be that it's bad.

I mean, I used to joke with someone that if I drove by any random church that you've never heard of, yeah, and I just pointed to the that church as we drove by, you're in the car with me, let's say, and I was like, oh, the pastor that that church had an affair with the secretary, it was a big deal.

You would be completely, you wouldn't even like, is that true?

Right.

I don't look that up and double check.

You we are so we've been disappointed so much, we've been hurt so much, maybe, that it's just we're very inclined to expect the worst.

And um, that makes us very jaded, very cynical, and that's a hard thing to fight.

You know, sometimes our expectations are with those expectations.

You go in with the wrong expectations, you're gonna sabotage it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, often you're going to.

You just think about people in like a dating world.

Like, okay, I've had this horrible experience.

I go into a new relationship, and yeah, three months in, I knew it's I knew it.

I knew it.

Or your expectations are are too high.

Yeah.

And then like you're disappointed.

But either way, those let letting those expectations go.

It's good match.

How do you um I think seeing in hindsight, and obviously knowing the Lord and He causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, like we see that in hindsight.

Yeah.

How do you uh counsel or suggest people behave in the midst of it, like as it's happening?

Like someone sends to your face or sends over email or however however it looks like in the digital sin.

Yeah.

Digital sin.

And you have to process that.

Like what what what was the recommendation there?

So so I took an approach by whereby, okay, you know, we're recognizing that church hurt is a symptom of a deeper problem.

Just like a doctor, you go in the doctor, hey, I got I have a runny nose, a cough, chest congestion.

He's gonna look at you and he's gonna say, you know, okay.

COVID.

You have a cold.

That's what I or allergies, or any number of the flu, any number of things.

But you go they're going to look back at what causes those symptoms, right?

And then they're going to prescribe for you a course of action, a treatment to get well and get better.

And so the the bulk of what I wanted to talk about, I really it took me so long to get there.

I felt so badly.

I could tell people were just like, come on, man, get to the point.

And I'm like, but you don't even see the point is the point.

But I know in those settings, though, yeah, when you're like two feet away from the people you're teaching, it's hard.

Their eyes are on you, and you feel like, are they hating it?

Do they hate me?

Do they hate everything I'm saying?

It's hard.

It's a very it's a very vulnerable place to be.

I had someone in the front row at a thing I was teaching fall asleep.

I was like, yeah, well, you know.

I guess it's going poorly, but other people seem to remember when I was a youth pastor.

I can still remember you and your buddies, several of which are still here in the front row, and you guys were clearly not be paying attention and just like talking and laughing.

Then I would say your names, and you'd be like, What I remember that two of my children are in our student ministry here, and Madison has had to pull me aside after church and be like, so we need to talk about your son and his behavior, and hey, man, you know, but yeah.

There's a course of action, and and it starts with prayer.

Like when it happens, pray.

Go to the Lord.

Because when we pray, we are humbling ourselves to the Lord.

You know, you look at the the Lord's prayer, it starts out with an acknowledgement that you are good, God.

You are, you are everything we're not.

So when we pray, we have to just humble ourselves.

And that by praying first, we hopefully eliminate the pride that comes from what we're going through that leads us away.

That's good.

Because often it's pride that leads us away, and then turn to scripture.

I mean, there's just so many examples.

I mean, if you were just hurt, you know, if you if you were going through a divorce, you and you were seeking scripture, you would look for solutions in scripture and pray through them.

The same applies for church hurt, it applies for so many things.

So this is just a new way of talking about the same remedy, the same go to scripture and study the word.

And then the hard one, the hardest one, straight into it, forgive.

Because forgiveness is a not about the other person.

You know, if you hurt me, it's not, if I forgive you, it's not really about, because you probably don't even care.

You're just like, eh, you know what?

I hurt him, I don't even know.

If you don't confront it, you've got to forgive that person.

And that also makes it about it.

You take on an accountability there when you do what we are commanded to do, which is forgive others.

You know, Christ, Christ forgave the those who put him on the tree.

When he said that, when he said, Forgive them, father, for they know not what they do, they still turned around and did more things right then.

You know, they gave him the sour wine, they pierced his side.

All those things happened after he said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

It's like the sin's probably gonna continue to perpetuate in the lives of the people that might have caused this.

So is that forgiveness interpersonal?

Like, would you do you go to that person or is that in just a time of prayer?

I think in prior prayer scripture, you gotta start there and get your heart set on it.

And then the one that I just didn't even want to teach about because I didn't want to deal with it, but Matthew 18 and reconciliation.

Yeah.

You know, go to your brother, and if you have, if you know, if you have if they've sinned against you and you have a problem with it, you have to go to them.

And then if they don't listen, Jesus says, which let's be honest, they're probably not, because if you are dealing with a church hurt, maybe you're dealing with a pastor, you know, a narcissistic pastor, it's like The narcissistic pastor's not going to listen to your concern about what so then it says go get two more, get two more witnesses with you.

And I think that's where, you know, when you talk about Matthew 18, that that argument can break down a little bit depending on who you get involved in trying to reconcile here.

It's like, did you just go get your gossipy neighbor who you've been talking to this about for a month?

A good thing here is is reconciliation truly your goal, or is your goal for the person to admit that they were wrong or to feel so yeah, I mean I think that those are great things because I I mean you may mention something, like you said narcissistic pastor.

Like there can be situations where you do need to leave a church.

Absolutely.

Like sometimes that church hurt is like, yeah, this is a really unhealthy place.

Yep.

Um so you you can't be there, it's toxic or whatever.

Um but I mean, I would just say from my experience, like when I I'll go back to that church experience I mentioned.

I wish I would have talked to the pastor and said, hey man, that kind of hurt my feelings.

And I did, I do remember having that conversation, but I I I when I had that conversation with him, I was offended and upset.

And my purpose in talking to him was to vent how upset I was.

It wasn't I really wish I would have stayed at that church for a little while.

Because that church was not a broken mess of a church.

I think that the in that situation, I think the pastor felt kind of up against a wall.

Maybe some parents were asking questions, and maybe it was even inadvertent.

I don't think it was, but you know, that's right.

I'm inclined not to think that because of where I was on the situation.

But at the end of the day, it's like, what's the worst thing that happened?

Oh, he um, you know, he he sort of uh put a spin on what happened that insulated him from mini criticism.

It's like, okay, have I ever done that?

Yeah.

Like clearly.

I mean, uh people do that.

People are it's a natural thing.

Yes, have I ever minimized my part in an issue?

Of course.

Yeah.

I wish I would have stayed there because actually, here's the thing God, I think, rescued us by the his hands coming thing.

But when that call came to me from my friend here in Georgia when I was up at Kansas City, I was not at that moment for the the past six, seven, eight, nine months.

Um, when we were at that church before we left, before I got hurt and left, we had community, we had friends, yeah, we had support.

Um, we had we had fun.

We had like, we'd go to game nights and stuff.

We were a young married couple that had other we pulled away because we were hurt and we were isolated and alone.

Our marriage was struggling.

We were not getting along.

Um, and we were very alone.

Yeah.

And we went to some other churches and we were like, I liked that message, but we never got that community back.

And his hands kind of thrust us back into that.

And I don't know what would have happened to me if I would have stayed in that I think it very easily could have gone to, yeah, now I go to church once every two months, now I don't go at all.

And I'm not saying that would have happened, I don't know.

Right.

But I know that what the community here and the friendship and even the ugly stuff, what it's caused me to work out in my faith, has been a beautiful thing.

And I'm I'm not always on the right side of it for sure, but it's been it's been good.

And so I think that fighting to stay, God's will is that we would be absolutely part of a body.

Yeah.

Well, and thank you for saying that.

That was the next point is uh seek community.

You know, healing happens in community, and so I challenged, you know, last week when teaching this course, I challenged those who had been hurt, who were wanting to pull away from the church, even against everything you have.

Go find a church.

Right.

It doesn't have to be this one.

I kind of expected who's gonna get up and walk out when I say that doesn't have to be this church.

I'm like, all right, bye, you know, but it it doesn't.

It doesn't have to be this church.

I'm not saying you have to be here, but find a church and a church that teaches scripture.

Because again, that's the filter we can apply to just about everything is scripture.

And so if we apply that filter, if we're looking for a church and you know, you're getting a five-point self-help message, it's not the right church for you.

Right.

You're not getting scripture, you're not getting the living word of God in your life and being taught it day after day, and and pulling that in and helping you heal.

And and you know, you talk about you and Megan being away from all those that you were so close to.

And we had great, and they weren't involved in that at all.

I literally should have just I should have just met with the pastor a couple times and worked something out, and then we would have still had all that community and support.

And so I regret that.

Um it's hard because that, you know, you can fail the risk reconciliation.

I mean, Jesus even gives an out.

If if indeed you even take it to the church and they still don't listen, well then treat them as the Gentiles and be done with them, Jesus says.

I mean, it's just kind of like you've done what I asked you to do, which was attempt to be reconciled to this person.

Like go back to forgiveness.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to invite that person back into your life or make them or that you'll ever trust them again.

Right.

Right.

You just have Jesus calls us to forgive others.

So you seek community, get back into, you know, all of these kind of progress you into being back into church again and the right church.

Sitting in a classroom full of people that are, you know, wounded potentially.

Do you recommend that they go?

It's like let's say you left on bad terms and there was no attempt at reconciliation and there was no forgiveness extended.

Right.

Do you recommend that they have that conversation with their previous church herders?

Aaron Powell That's gosh, that's a tough question.

Is that like the what Matthew 18 is calling us to, or is it like, well, God knows I've forgiven them in my heart and that's enough?

Aaron Powell Yeah.

I mean, if it's not a friend who calls people and says, Hey man, you hurt me two years ago, I forgive you for that.

And to me, it just brings it all back up to you.

On one level it sounds really dumb, like where you're like, but the ways of God don't make sense to me all the time.

And so he might be in the right, and there might be some beautiful moments that come from that.

And he may have just needed that.

Right, right.

Whether your response is, oh, thanks.

I appreciate that click.

Yeah.

You know, maybe it was more because again, it's about the person who is doing the forgiving, not necessarily about the person who's being forgiven.

And so, yeah, I think that in that situation, that's a a line you walk with the Lord.

You know, are you gonna call up your old pastor?

You know, maybe not.

Maybe you just if you're in a place where you can move past it.

And that's something I'm not an expert on.

You know, I one of the pieces of advice I give is if you need counseling for this, seek counseling.

If you need these things, this is just a start.

This is just a starting boilerplate template for how to deal with it with scripture.

Well, you think about the early church too, we'll move on and wrap up.

Like, but I mean, in the early church, A, communities were much smaller.

Yeah.

You lived in the same town your whole life.

Very rarely would people move.

And so if you were a, I mean, if if if your brother had hurt you, so to speak, you're gonna see that person all the time.

All the time.

We live in a world now where I can like, I'll just go to a different church.

Yeah, I won't see those people.

Yeah.

Problem is if you go to enough churches in an area, um, eventually the per oh, that person used to go to this church with me, and then they left, and then they and it it gets messier than you think.

So I mean, if you can, if you can't move past it without having the conversation, you know, it's like, and I say this to myself, there's probably some conversations I need to have.

Yeah.

Um, this is kind of an inconvenient topic, Daniel.

Sorry, man.

Um Yeah.

So so understand what Church Hurt is.

Yes.

Kind of wrap up.

Yeah.

It is an it's a response to someone who's done something to elicit that response.

Yeah.

Maybe what they did was completely horrible and wrong.

Maybe it wasn't, maybe it was not.

Maybe you're just easily offended.

But point is you have a response.

Someone did something to cause that.

Uh then you've got to sort of you've got to examine the source.

Okay, is this just because we're in a fallen world and things aren't perfect?

Is it examine the sources?

Yeah.

And those five were, once again, what are the five sources?

Uh oh, this yeah, here we go.

Yeah, here we go.

We live in a fallen world.

Put me on the spot.

We live in a fallen world.

Satan hates the church.

Um, people are weak.

People sin.

And we also have very lofty expectations.

Okay.

So examine yourself.

Yeah.

Think through that.

Okay, where where is this coming from?

Yeah.

And if it is a situation where the church is just a really, this is this is not good, this is unhealthy, this is bad, you you might need to leave.

Um, but still leave like you're still part of the church.

Like, don't just but but I think what you're also saying, if if you're in a church that isn't this just broken mess, identify the source, deal with it, maybe have the right conversation with those people, forgive, pray, and humble yourself.

Because even looking back to my story, there was definitely pride in me that was like puffed up.

Like, I can't believe that lied about.

I've never, like, I'm I had lied before that.

Right, right.

Had you also not done it?

Yeah, sure.

On the note of leaving, I think too, having that kind of Matthew 18 conversation does provide an outlet for that church to recognize its errors.

Yeah.

Where otherwise, a lot of people ghost us.

And oh yeah, I I go like, well, I felt like we were on good terms, and come to find out six months, a year later, it's like, oh, there had been like some unresolved conflict between us that I had no idea about.

Yeah.

Where had that been communicated on the front end, there would have been at least an opportunity for that reconciliation and even correction from an unhealthy church to a healthier church.

Yeah, absolutely.

And and if we're not talking about this topic, we're not helping the church.

Yeah, to that point.

I mean, it's just like, if it happens, I would challenge anybody listening that's dealt with this.

Look at how you can improve the church.

Make the church the church you want it to be.

Like, all right, so I totally hijacked a very famous quote during this class.

Ask not what you can do for your or ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

That was Donald Trump, Abraham Lincoln.

Abraham Lincoln.

Wait a minute.

I know, it's John F.

Kennedy.

Okay.

So ask not what your church can do for you, but what can you do for your church.

Yeah.

Because you're at the end of this, it's you can't isolate the believer from the church.

Those two things are one and the same.

We're the body of Christ.

So if we believe if we in this post-church movement, people love to be like, well, I believe in Jesus.

I just don't like the church.

I want to be part of the church.

The church.

It's like, or but then they'll go find some, you know, fitness social club or some other thing that becomes their church.

Becomes a religion, yeah.

Yeah, it becomes a use sports.

It becomes a religion, it becomes a thing.

They still believe in Jesus, and I get that, but aren't you at that point just minimizing the power of Jesus?

Because Jesus, his power is in his body, his power and what he can do is in opportunities like we have here at our church to reach out to the community.

Like things, powerful things happen inside the church.

Yeah, people hurt people, it happens, but you can't really pull the two apart.

I don't think you can, and maybe this is the part two, but what is it?

You know, what is a believer dealing with this?

Because you can't I don't believe, and I could take some flag for this, but I don't believe you can be a believer and be outside the church.

The capital C church.

You don't have to be part of this church anymore, but you need to find a church and you need to be a chance to be able to do it.

Yeah, at the very least, you're you're you're not walking in obedience because Jesus I mean, it's like when someone says, like, I don't think I have to be baptized.

It's like, yeah, that's true.

I guess technically, if you want to get like super theological, like if a kid gives their life to Jesus and then they're in a car accident before they I mean, yeah, okay.

Yeah, you pick a nitz at that point.

But Jesus told us to.

Yeah.

Like he said, get baptized.

So we should do it.

And we are told multiple times in the New Testament to not forsake the gathering together, to be part of a bot, a body.

And um, you know, it's tough.

Like I think Jesus probably knew that that would require a lot.

Like the Lord's Prayer, you mentioned earlier.

Oh, quickly in the Lord's Prayer, forgive me my sins as I forgive those who sin against me.

You got to pray that pretty, pretty often.

Um, and the church will give you opportunities to do that.

And immediately after the Lord's prayer, you know, we love to read the Lord's Prayer, but we forget to read, like, you know, we we love to take scripture out of context.

You can read directly after that.

And the Lord is like, if you do not forgive your brother, my father in heaven will not forgive you.

And it's like, how chapter's good.

We we we love like isolating the Lord's Prayer sounds great, but the Lord's prayer is so deep and there's so much to this has been really good.

People have a lot to chew on.

It's pretty how long we've been doing this.

It's been a pretty long episode.

Longer So no, no, it's not apology, it's a really deep topic.

Maybe as we wrap up, we can have a meeting afterwards um when we're done.

You know, you see those like uh commercials for attorneys.

Like, have you been have you been hurting in it in a car accident?

Call so and so.

We just do like a church hurt lawyer thing, like a billboard church billboard thing.

I saw something on Instagram about that being church hurt.

Instead of it being like a settlement, like we'll get you more money, we just put you in contact with the person who hurt you, and like, hey, you guys just need to We're just the we're like mediators.

Yeah.

Oh gosh.

Hey, this is Justin McTear with uh the Church Hurt firm and uh I've got I've got Madison on the line.

Um, and I think for just for those listening that haven't been hurt, I think that this conversation goes a long way toward preventing it, like what we what we've talked about.

And just understanding that, but also understanding that there are people sitting next to you every Sunday, there are people serving alongside you that are coming to this community from a very different uh perspective and working for the benefit of the body is not just like uh making sure that you never stub your toe, but to know that like another member of the body has a broken ankle and you can kind of go along and support them.

Correct.

In like a really healthy way to say just like, hey, I'm here for you, like we can talk, we can be here for each other, pray for each other, et cetera.

Um so all that's really good, Daniel.

I kind of pulled a fast one in the title of the course because there's no direct steps I offer to put the prevention.

Right.

Because the prevention is the cure.

I mean, it's just if if you go through scripturally addressing your church hurt, if you're never been church hurt, but you are daily in scripture and you are daily addressing things like forgiveness or you know, and quickly, you are preventing it.

So it was a it's really good.

It's very much about overcoming with the prevention being just the assumed.

No, it's awesome.

And thank you for sitting down with us.

I have to apologize to both of you.

I yawned twice during this, and it's not because anything bored me.

It's because I stayed up way too late last night.

Wow.

So you texted me late.

I was already in.

I know, I'm sorry.

That's all right.

Um, yeah.

So love you guys.

This has been great.

Daniel, thank you for this class.

I'm sure you'll you'll teach it again.

Yes, yeah.

Um, and we'll try our best not to create opportunities for you needing to teach the class, but I'm sure we will.

And uh, this has been good.

Thanks.

This has been good.

Thanks, man.

It's good.

So 1 800 churchchurk.com.

Wait, no, it's at a dot com.