Cutting Room Floor - The Judas Episode

All right.

Good morning.

Morning.

Morning, Madison.

Hi.

Hello.

We'll say it as if we haven't been talking for the last 10 minutes about random stuff.

And good morning, and you and you are?

Hi.

I'm Megan.

Hey, that was confident.

It's Megan.

Megan's on her staff, and I'm also married to her.

And I was going to say this.

I have uh a really painful like shoulder back thing going on.

So it's fine when I look at you.

This is natural.

But when I look at Megan, it's like I must.

Do you want me to read that?

If I turn my neck this way, I'm fine.

But if I turn it on.

If you have like an extended portion where you're talking to Megan, I can get out of my seat.

So if they're just saying people are watching the video version of this, if there's some like, wow, some weird body language for Justin and Megan, it's not I should have had you sit here because I every time you talk, I'll have to be like this.

Because I just can't move, I can't move my neck like that without it being painful.

All right.

So you're not avoiding me.

It's just you're not a good thing.

Babe, I haven't I have been the opposite of avoiding you for a long time.

Don't even get me started.

Welcome to the cutting room floor.

This is where we talk about things that didn't make it into the message or we didn't have time to talk about it.

Can I just say this?

I love that we can do this.

I was actually thinking about it this morning on my drive, and it's it's like a new tool that I never had for decades almost as a teacher.

Where being able to skip things.

Well, just being because you recognize sometimes there's things in a message where it's like, we can't not talk about that.

Right.

Like it's a huge part of that.

But I don't I don't think to go through it and really talk about it would take quite a bit, and it's interesting, but I don't know if that's the main focus that we're supposed to have this morning.

And you're dealing on Sunday mornings with a a limited time span.

And so also a range of experiences in the audience that might not be like this is perfectly addressing everybody.

And it's so nuanced, I really have to layer it.

And so it's just nice to be able to say, you know what, guys, we're not skipping it.

We're just we're gonna give it more time and more do in this capacity.

And those who are really interested in it can watch, and those who aren't don't have to.

I love it.

I love it.

So we're talking about Judas.

Um, a little bit of background, then I'll just we'll get into it.

Message on Sunday, uh, whatever the context, if someone is listening to this or watching this, is we went through Matthew 26 and the section, uh specifically focusing on the sections of Matthew 26 that deal with Jesus' friends betraying him.

It talks about how there are a few different levels of that.

You've got like the disciples falling asleep instead of praying with Jesus, and that's like they let him down, you know.

Um, not like quite stab you in the back type stuff, but it's it's a let down.

You have the disciples running away when Jesus gets arrested.

You have Peter breaking Jesus' heart by just denying that he even knows him, even though they're they're you know extremely close friends, and Jesus has poured so much into Peter, and then you have Judas who for money uh betrays Jesus to be handed over and killed.

Right.

And that's like a different level.

Um and so we focused more in the message on recognizing that we all let each other and God down.

We all have a tendency to cut and run and abandon.

Sometimes it's like you have a friend that just is something awkward's going on, and you just feel awkward, so you just kind of abandon them on accident, even.

Uh, but we can kind of cut and run with God sometimes.

Sometimes we have whole seasons of life where we sort of avoid him.

Um, and we can break his heart.

What we we can break each other's hearts, we can break God's heart.

But not many of us are out there going like, I'm gonna trying to sabotage the ministry of Jesus in this world.

Correct.

So I'm just gonna turn him in and murder him, and even with Judas, there's some interesting nuance there, right?

Like there's some talk.

So I thought, let's just have a deeper conversation about Judas.

And to me, this covers a variety of topics.

Judas himself, what were his motivations?

What was he thinking?

Did he, did he repent?

Yeah, did he not?

You know, he he takes his own life.

Um, like what's our comfort comfort level with where Judas ends up and all that kind of stuff?

Jesus says some things that are pretty interesting, and I guess in a weird way, it could even dive into a conversation about like the idea of apostasy and what that means in our world today.

So, with that said, Megan, you're not usually with us because you're busy.

Yeah.

And uh you and I were hanging out at home and you had all kinds of you do this thing where if I'm talking on something and I know that you kind of you're excited about it, you'll like make these faces and I'll say something like, Yeah, I'm not good.

I'm like, oh yeah, you do that if you can excited.

Or or what'll happen too is I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna talk a lot about Judas, and you'll you'll like go.

And I'm like, what?

I'm just saying.

Yeah.

So what are your thoughts?

Let's go.

Let's get a let's just talk.

Judas.

Okay.

Thoughts on Judas.

What's your what's your main What's the first thing that pops in your mind when you think about Judas betraying Jesus, the whole story?

Like, is it I hate that guy?

Is it what I mean, what is it?

Well, I well okay.

So my first thought is that I think Judas is probably the most tragic character ever.

Um so there's the tragedy of Judas.

I I I can't think of any character ever that is more tragic than Judas.

Um and he's a real person, so he's beyond just a character, he's a real person.

Yeah, we're actually watching The Chosen with our kids right now.

And Judas is really like so far we're at, we're just at the beginning of season four.

But the person they cast as Judas is really likable and everything so far he seems it's hard for me to take him seriously because he looks like Thomas Middleditch, who's like a he's like a he I think he's in Parks and Rec.

He's in a show called Silicon Valley that I don't I haven't watched that show.

But you just know he's just like a comedy actor.

So I'm like, okay, you think it's like beans from that one show, you know, like whatever it is.

Like if they cast Ryan Ryan Reynolds as uh as Peter, you'd be like, that's not that's Ryan Reynolds.

We're just a guy that really looks like Ryan Reynolds.

This is the thing is Judas was a real disciple.

Like he he was a disciple just like anybody else.

And he that's the tragedy of it to me.

Like I think I think we try to get into the mind of Judas so much and we try to put in a lot of assumptions about why Judas did what he did.

We know a little bit, like we know that he kept the purse, and so we know that there's like some money stuff involved.

But other than that, we don't know a a lot about why Judas did what he did, and so we try to put a lot of assumptions on to Judas, but looking at just what we know about Judas, he's not that different than the other disciples, and that is so tragic to me because you could have put, and obviously it's not Philip and it's not Andrew, and it's not, you know, um any of the other disciples, but it could have been essentially because he saw everything that they saw, and he was with Jesus the entire time.

And that brings something to the to Judas that we have to be honest about with ourselves, that that level of betrayal is there in humanity.

You don't, yeah.

Like, or no, not that it sneaks up on you.

No, that it exists.

Yeah.

That that we say, like, Well, J my point is Judas probably didn't he probably wasn't for a long time.

I don't I don't get the impression, like you say, we try to get his mind, it's tough.

I don't I've never had the impression that Judas was for years looking for his chance.

Well, see, that's the other thing is we we we have a lot of assumptions.

We go like Judas planned this, or Judas was sneaky from the beginning, or Judas was sour from the beginning.

And I just I don't think that's true because we don't know that.

He's become such a trope of evil that it's like hard to undo Judas and Satan's mouth in hell in Dante's Inferno or all of the versions of the Judas, like even the vine uh Judas.

I brought you gold frankincense and murder murder.

Murder, Judah.

Judas, yeah.

And even the name Judas, like here we are.

We're we're in a a society that has deep Christian roots, but is not a like a Christian, you know, America is a unique place.

Here we go.

People don't you know after the election and all.

No.

But people don't name their kids Judas.

Like you don't meet Judas's.

Yeah, but I've never thought about it being like Matthew.

Like oh, if Matthew had betrayed Jesus or if Andrew were too much.

He was there.

Those things.

Those things you're saying, the way we think about him.

Right.

I'm saying that's even in pop culture, apart like you don't have non-Christian parents like, I like the name Judas.

Because we all just it's become so synonymous with the right.

But I I we look at and go like, man, I could have been, I could have been Peter, I denied Jesus, I could have been one of the disciples that left and fled at Gethsemane.

But we don't often go like, I could have been Judas, but I think I I think that level of betrayal is part of the human experience for all of us.

Right.

So it's like which I think that's where we went for the middle school and high school.

We just we kind of took the more the approach of like, uh I've been watching Great British Bake Off season 12 series.

So good.

It's pretty good.

I'm sure I've seen it.

Uh I'm sure I have.

I just don't see most of them.

And I'm not a baker.

I can mess up pancakes, but I learn from the mistakes of the people that are on the show.

Like, oh, like don't forget to put baking soda in your frenzy pan or whatever the thing that they're baking is.

So we looked at like how you can learn from the mistakes of these different people that make these mistakes.

And the failure that Judas falls into, unless you guys see it differently, is temptation.

Like whether it's for money, whether it's to trigger the revolution or force Jesus' hand, it's the temptation that was laid out before him that he could do it his own way.

Yep.

And that led to the betrayal.

That's what's the the root there.

This actually might be a good moment to pause and kind of step back and look at the main schools of thought about Judas.

Because what we know is that he he gets anointed at the city of Bethany, the town of Bethany outside Jerusalem by this woman, and she pours really expensive perfume.

Jesus does.

Jesus does, yes, not Judas.

Jesus is anointed, yeah.

Um Jesus does.

And it's it's perfume that would have been about a year's worth of wages based on most of the stuff that I've read.

Um is it's expensive.

And it actually says in Matthew that all the disciples, it wasn't say all, but it says the disciples were upset about this.

They all looked at it as waste.

It's not just Judas in Matthew's version.

So they're all kind of like, hey, that's a little extravagant, you know.

Um and uh, but then John gets a little bit more focused on Judas, and it actually says, but Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said this perfume was worth a year's wages.

Oh, that's where it comes from.

You know, the context that we the deep historical oh what it says there.

Um it should have been sold and the money given to the poor.

Not that he cared for the poor, he was a thief.

And since he was in charge of the disciples' money, he often stole for himself.

So John gives us that that detail.

And it might be that Judas was the one that like led that.

He could have said it first.

This was crazy.

It should have been, and the other disciples were kind of like, Yeah, yeah, come on.

And so this It's mad that the money wasn't gonna pass through his hand first.

So it says here that And and you know, the disciples, I get the impression that they're kind of oblivious.

It's only Jesus that knows Judas is gonna betray him.

They don't see Judas, uh they they don't seem to be aware of this.

Um and so there's a few schools of thought.

One school of thought is that Judas was greedy, which clearly he was.

And this is something that, you know, he his heart had departed from Jesus a long time ago.

And look, if you were one of the disciples and you believed kind of the traditional Jewish ideas of the Messiah, and you think Jesus is the Messiah, you're thinking that you're you're headed for prosperity, wealth, the royal court.

Yeah, you're we're we're gonna be on the ground floor of this new thing, and that's gonna we're gonna be loaded.

You you could think that.

Or you could be powerful.

You know, it's like James and John's mom is like, please let him sit at your Yeah, they all they all had that mindset though.

Like it's it's not just Judas.

That's the thing, is it's not James and John also had that in their hearts.

So I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm just saying that some see Judas in this, like he was just a thief who was in it for the wrong reasons.

And when he maybe found out that that wasn't gonna play out that way, he decided, well, then I'm gonna go.

I want money.

I don't care about you.

So if Jesus is wasting this kind of money and he's talking about being buried and like, I don't what I'm out.

And he goes and he goes, I'm gonna make money, I'm gonna get 30 shekels of silver, and which is a lot of money in their time, and betray him.

So that's what happens.

He goes and he gets paid by the Pharisees to agree to hand Jesus over to them.

But then this is where the second school of thought comes in.

He appears to feel he shows great remorse after this.

Like he's immediately yeah, he doesn't like, sweet, I got my money, and he goes and he buys a whatever, he immediately shows remorse, throws the money back at the Pharisees, like goes to the temple, throws it at him, says he's an innocent man.

I've but he's and then he goes and he he hangs himself.

And so it's not quite as like the villain, you know, uh, because villains usually don't show remorse in most of our stories.

There's another school of thought that so that so that school of thought is like he's not just this bad guy.

Um the Bible says Satan entered Judas, which is a pretty intense thing.

I don't know if there's another person that it ever says Satan.

I mean Jesus says, get behind me, Satan to Peter.

So it's like, is that a similar it's not completely dissimilar, yeah, right?

But it doesn't ever say that Satan at that point entered Peter.

Like Jesus, I've always read that as Jesus uh saying, Hey, you're you're you essentially are saying the same thing to me that Satan would say to me, but maybe who knows?

Um Jesus himself says it would be better for for this man not to have been born.

It's pretty intense.

Yeah.

And then there's a whole other school of thought that talks about Judas trying to force Jesus' hand.

Like he actually thinks Jesus is the Messiah and is gonna do it, and he feels like, Man, why are you delaying?

Why are you?

I know, I'll go get the I'll go get the Pharisees to show up, and when they go to arrest him, he'll like, this will force Jesus to turn on his Messiah stuff, and then we'll be good.

But then he also got the money.

So there's all these mixed ideas about Jesus, Judas.

And I agree with you that we can all we all have to be on guard how much betrayal can exist in our hearts.

You know, we can all when I said sneaks up on us, sometimes you don't realize how greedy you are.

You don't realize whatever.

Yeah, the the don't store your treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy, but store them in heaven uh for where your treasure is, there your heart is also.

So it's like obviously the center of Judas's heart had been replaced with something else.

Yeah, for the love of money is the root of all evil.

Like that's he seems to have gotten into that place.

So, you know, this leads to some interesting questions.

Um, and I'd love to know what y'all's take is.

Um Let's start here.

Do you do you think do you think Judas repented?

Like what remorse and repentance are different.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

Uh feeling bad.

It's like it's like your kid when you catch them doing something wrong and they start crying.

And there's there's a difference between like, oh, you recognize the weight of the thing that you've done wrong versus you're just upset that you're in trouble with me.

That's a different thing.

And so I think that there's like a I'm feeling bad about the natural consequences of my actions and I'm disappointed in that versus I'm turning my heart toward the Lord.

Right.

And so I think remorse would just be, yeah, I experience the natural consequences of sin, failure, etc.

But there's plenty of sinners who never repent that still feel remorse, you know.

Right.

And now he again, he throws the money, gives the money back, goes and kills himself.

So it's a deep remorse.

It's like a it's not like oh shucks, I probably shouldn't have done that.

Right.

And oh well.

But like, you know, so there's that.

Um You actually said something really interesting about how you just were like, if Judas had only really known Jesus, basically.

I think I think that's the thing, and that hit me is that Judas was confronted at some point, and I think it's you know, in chapter 27 in Matthew, he saw that Jesus had been condemned, and I think he was realizing that Jesus was going to die.

I don't know if Judas realized that's where this was going to go.

I don't know what he thought was going to happen.

He probably I don't know if he thought through it.

Um they were conspiring, it says they were conspiring with um each other to put Jesus to death, and they led him away and handed him over to the governor.

Then Judas saw that Jesus was condemned and felt remorse.

So at some point it switched in him.

At some point he realized, oh my gosh, this has gone further than I thought it was, whatever his motives were, whether it was um greed of money, trying to, you know, force Jesus' hand into some sort of um power play or something, whatever it was, it went further than he thought.

Then the remorse hit, like you said.

Um that's when he threw the silver back and said, I've betrayed someone who's innocent.

The issue or the thing that I see in that whole situation is Judas is confronted at that point with his own depravity.

Peter, um, in his denial of Jesus, is also confronted with his own depravity.

That um that trumpet call, that rooster crow, that trumpet call, is his moment of like, oh my gosh, what have I done?

There's my depravity.

Right.

And I think we all as people at some point get confronted with the depth of our own depravity.

Um and it's in that moment we have a decision to either turn inward and just crumple, um, which is what Judas did, or we take that depravity to the Lord and let him deal with it.

And um, which is what Peter did.

So whether or not we do that depends on how well we know the Lord.

And Peter was much more comfortable with the love of Jesus than Judas was.

And I think how well you know God and how well you know the Lord is that determining factor.

So you're saying like if he really knew the the loving nature of Jesus, he wouldn't have killed himself.

There's something he didn't something didn't click.

There's something he didn't know.

And I agree with you.

It's interesting, like Peter didn't really like Jesus initiated that, right?

Peter was still kind of in you get the impression that Peter still.

I mean, Jesus was on the beach, but gee but Jesus was on the beach, but Peter still swam to him.

It was a it was a weird it was an interesting encounter.

It's also that what is hard about it is like Peter doesn't betray Jesus like Judas betrays Jesus.

Peter denies Jesus to a galile or a little girl and then a group of guys.

And while he's like trying to see Jesus being arrested, it's still a denial.

It's that moment, it's like a crime of passion versus a premeditated thing, right?

It's like a I I just got caught up in a moment.

I mean, I agree I agree that there's uh there's a different different level of betrayal.

However, I think I I'm of the camp, and and you guys might disagree with me, I'm of the camp that if if Judas let's let's pretend.

I'm against camps.

I don't like camping.

Uh what is it?

I'm sure I think if Judas, let's if Judas hadn't killed himself and had gone to Jesus for forgiveness, Jesus would have forgiven him.

Yeah, I don't think there's much.

I mean you get the the verse where he says it would be better for him not to be born.

Some people view that as a statement of judgment.

Like he's some people view it as a statement of it's like with Jesus, you gotta foreknowledge foreknowledge.

Like, yeah, I I know how this is gonna play out, and this it's not gonna play out well for him.

Yeah.

Be better off.

Yeah.

So yeah, you don't you just don't know.

And that's what we're kind of robbed of because he kills himself, we don't get to see that.

Right.

What would that have interaction been like?

Um, you know, the Pharisees, they just hate Jesus.

They don't show any remorse.

Right.

Right?

They're they don't have a moment of like, oh, what have we done?

We've killed an innocent man.

Well, they don't think he's innocent.

I don't I don't know if you're not a good thing.

But my point is that they don't like I think they've lied to themselves so much they believe.

Agreed.

My point is, Judas is not in that camp.

Like he's definitely not them.

He feels genuine remorse and oh no.

And whether it's for the right or wrong reasons, guilt is not always a God thing, right?

We have normal human guilt where we go, I f I shouldn't have done that.

You don't even have to be a Jesus follower to feel guilty about doing the wrong thing, right?

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

Well, I mean, obviously.

Because Judas was not someone who knew the character and nature of God and he felt remorse.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's just it's it's one of those unknowns.

Like we don't know.

Like if someone said, Hey, you are you gonna see Judas in heaven, my question is like Oh, is that like was it repentance?

I I we don't know.

We we we don't know.

Like I I for me, I would go into this flip a coin, maybe it's more 60-40, I don't know, but the point is it's not really worthwhile discussing that to a certain degree.

But what it does bring us to, and I think there's something Madison was I might try to put words in your mouth.

There is something different about choosing to betray God, so to speak, than there is with having a moment of weakness.

And it brings up this, I've been thinking about this this week, because I agree with you.

Like we have to acknowledge that, like Paul said, we have to acknowledge that the depth, there's nothing I can look at someone in the Bible doing be like, I would never do that.

If I think that to myself, I'm probably in a bad spot.

I have to go, Lord, guard my heart so that I never get to that point.

You know, even uh, even we talk about here the love of money.

I've talked with with both of you a lot about like the last few years, is the first time I ever did some investing and stuff like that.

And I've I probably have experienced, like, ooh, this stuff affects me more than I thought it would.

I have to do some soul searching on that.

Um But there is this idea of like apostasy, and we still see this in the world today, where can you be someone who is at one point a genuine follower of Jesus?

You have a a saving faith, people might say, but then you make a decision to be like, and I I reject that, and I am now working against that.

You know what I mean?

We we live uh we live in a time when there have been a lot of, I say a lot, there have been a fair number of prominent Christians, pastors, worship leaders, known people who have quote unquote walked away and said, I'm not a Christian anymore.

I'm not that.

Were they just never one and like Judas was never a true disciple?

He was always in it for the wrong reasons and just didn't maybe lied to himself, didn't know it, and then push came to shove.

It just brings up an interesting thing, like this idea of apostasy, which is Yeah, I have a ramble, a ramble, so let's let Madison try.

I've been rambling enough.

So let's your turn.

Uh so on the suicide thing, life is long unless it's not.

So, like for these people when they turn from God, were they really saved?

It's like, well, give it another 10 years.

Let's see the what the journey is.

Yeah, their journey's not over.

They might become apostasy states of apostasy.

Yeah, right.

So even in the depths of your sin and depravity and the recognition of that, don't take that into your own hands because if you're still here, God, God is who causes you to wake up in the morning.

So if you still wake up in the morning, God has still like more for you to process through, to walk through, to to accomplish in the world.

Don't take that into your own hands and say, Well, my story's done because of the darkness that I've let in.

Like that's never, that's never true.

So continue and uh turn to him.

But um, so with Judas, we're robbed of that to n to some extent.

But it is like this um if you those who uh die in Christ are present with the Lord, like from one moment to the next.

And so if you believe that, I you have to also believe that the opposite is true.

If you don't die in Christ, you're not present with the Lord.

And so the question about repentance and remorse might be the the the linchpin for for Judas, but for somebody else, I would just say like if you're downright rejecting the power of God and the truthfulness of God, and you're actively working against, I see people with the bumper stickers that are like kind of like the witchcraft Satanism bumper stickers a lot, and it's just like man, I hope that somebody is bold enough and brave enough to like share the Lord with them wherever they live their normal everyday life so that they have that opportunity to turn.

Because if that bumper sticker person who's like embracing Satan and is embracing paganism or whatever it is, it's like if they die that they will not be present with Jesus when they do.

And so I think a downright rejection of Jesus is the prerequisite for condemnation and righteous condemnation as God judges them face to face.

I think otherwise, don't you just believe that everybody goes to heaven?

Right.

Like, right.

And just go, well, and is and again, uh another part of the ramble is a majority of scripture is about heaven on earth and enacting that, like experiencing the kingdom of heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit today.

Right.

We're not given the roadmap and like.

The eternity, like that's God's stuff.

Yes.

That's definitely like, hey, that's we get hints of it, but we're definitely to say with confidence, the only thing we can say with confidence is that those who die in Christ, like while they're absent from the body, they're present from the Lord or present with the Lord.

And so to say anything otherwise, I think would be um uh naive or justifying or like coping with things that are too hard for us.

I'm I'm in agreement with that.

I I think that uh maybe where I'm coming at this from you know, I'm not trying to just ask an unanswerable question, but um I very much grew up in a church culture that had this once saved, always saved.

Like that was a thing that I heard said a lot, you know, and it's like if you if if anyone ever does quote unquote walk away, it means that they were never really truly because you couldn't.

I mean, what like you if the prodigal son dies in a pig pit face down in the dirt in that metaphor, he hasn't come back to terrible, right?

Right.

It's like he's died outside of the father's love, even though the father still does love him.

Right.

So you're saying even if he died like I should go back to my father, what have I done?

Well maybe drawing that line, huh?

He's on the way back, and he trips and falls into the son.

It's not it's not uh a downright like I'm gonna actively work everything against you.

And again, I'm not trying to go down too much of a rabbit trip.

I look at Judas specifically, like at Judas's story, and go, okay, he he did not know Jesus because he didn't return to Jesus like P like Peter did.

And there's something, there's something about Judas, well, I say like it could have been any disciple.

What I mean by that is not it wasn't any disciple, though it was still Judas.

Um He he followed Jesus and was around all the things that Jesus did, but he still betrayed Jesus, and I agree with what you said, Madison, that it was at a different level than what Peter did.

And what I I guess I don't want to create confusion in saying that it could have been any disciple.

Um it could have been any disciple in that he saw everything the other disciples did, short of the um the inner circle.

I mean, he obviously he wasn't like at the transfiguration or anything like that.

Um but he saw the things that a lot of the other disciples saw.

The interesting thing is, and to answer what you were talking about, Justin, being around it and naming yourself something doesn't mean that you have the like that you're you have the Holy Spirit, that you have the Christian thing.

So saying like, hey, I'm around it all the time, I call myself a Christian, so that's enough.

Judas called himself a disciple and he was around it all the time, but Satan still entered him and picked him.

Right.

So there's there's something missing for Judas.

Yeah.

He didn't know he did and that's the thing, is that he didn't know Jesus.

Um Do you think he was so delusional that when they're all going like, Is it me?

Is it me?

Is it me?

Do you think when he says like, is it me?

He knew but do you think he's excited?

Like, do you think he's like pumped?

Like, oh I'm the one.

I think he's no, I think he's playing a game.

I think I think well, I think first of all, he also probably knew like if these guys know it's me, they'll kill me.

Like, I I'm sure Peter You don't think he gets the honor to trigger the revolution?

You know what I mean?

Like he's the I don't know what his motivation was.

I don't know if he was revolutionary, maybe.

When did it say Satan entered him?

Was it after as he was like walking out the door.

Okay.

Because Jesus tells him, like, go do what you have to do, and then Satan entered him and he leaves.

Yeah.

It's great.

And there are some that will be in this camp of like, you know, if you want to go down the hardcore predestination camp, like this was always the this is what Judas was created to be.

Right.

I'm not saying that.

I'm not saying that you can't.

I mean, I don't like camps.

So the point is, I look at it and I go, man, there's a lot of you know, I'm a big believer in like absolutes, interpretations.

We use those three, there's a lot of interpretation here.

There's a lot in Judas's story that's open for interpretation.

There's a lot of assumptions of what he was thinking and motivations and all that.

But what you can say is a takeaway for everybody is man, and this is like a challenging thing for me, is take stock of where your real allegiance is.

You can be a like you, like you mentioned, being around it.

Like there's pastors that, you know, are essentially crooks and they rob their people, so to speak.

And yet at their churches, they they see people's lives changed, yeah, right.

And marriages saved, and and it's like you can be around it and see all the good stuff and still have a heart that's just selfish and greedy and wants whatever.

And well, that's not just for pastors, I obviously I'm using that analogy as an easy analogy.

Um, but yeah, you can be around, you can be around it.

Um and I think maybe like a suit- I I know this is a silly one.

Uh I didn't quite go there in the message on Sunday, but if you ever do surprise yourself with the level of your sin, if your depravity ever gets the best of you, I think it always does.

Yeah.

To be honest.

Well, yeah, some okay, sometimes I sin and it doesn't surprise me.

Because I'm like, par for the course, Justin.

That's my sin.

It's just my sin.

It's like a little pet, you know, a little it's a little it's a shih tzu.

It's a peek a pickany sin.

Here comes sin again.

I feel like mine are always German shepherds.

Like they're always just like no.

But I've had moments where I've had moments where it's hit me just how wow, like that's horrible.

And when that happens, that's a desperate place.

And Satan would love it for all of us to do something stupid and drastic in those moments, right?

Like you should kill yourself.

Yeah.

Or to identify to identify with that moment.

To identify with that moment, you will never come back.

You never come back.

And I I would I maybe should have said this in the message like, hey, if you ever if you ever do something that it rocks you, don't do something drastic.

Because you don't have to stay stay where you're at, right, and let the Lord bring you back.

I kind of mentioned that, but you know, because I do think there's people who let, like you said, let that moment define them and almost need to fully, I guess I have to embrace that now.

This is who I am, because I can't.

Or like maybe if I do something worse, it'll minimize that, even though that's the thing that's rocked me.

Yeah, I see people on Facebook sometimes that used to, I used to have a relationship with in a Christian context that seem like, man, you you hate, you don't just you don't just disagree with some Christians about their voting preferences or whatever.

Like you hate the kingdom of God.

Like you what happened?

Right.

Like, why are you this this passionate?

And it it I'm like, this is someone that used to be outwardly excited about Jesus and excited to be part of, you know, so it's just I don't know what happens in the human heart to get to that point, but I know that, like you said, I have done I've done things where I go, wow, I'm worse than I thought I was.

I thought I was further along than this, or I've disgusted myself with my my my depravity.

That's happened.

Um and what do we do when those moments happen?

Well, we what we don't do is go kill yourself, right?

Like honestly, don't don't don't let the enemy tell you that this is now who you are and you are.

You might as well because you know I'd rather be Peter, sad, dejected, really disappointed in myself.

I think Peter was still like I always think about Peter, he's fishing again.

I feel like no, I feel like Peter is like gone back to his day job.

He has gone He feels disqualified.

Yeah, I'm not I'm better stuck, right?

But he still needs to eat, so he's like, Well, I guess I'm a fisherman again.

And Jesus, in the right moment, at the right time, in the right way, brings him back.

And for all of us, I think it's pretty fast.

Yeah, it is pretty fast.

Because that's who Jesus is.

Like he's a shepherd, and the shepherd goes after the lost sheep.

Um so if you find yourself in that place, just pray, hang tight, don't do something drastic, and and let the Lord bring you back, I guess.

Yeah, and I think there's like one more pastoral consideration for this, regardless of your own thing, your own junk, is like for those of us who have lost somebody close by suicide.

Oh, yeah, that if murder is not an unforgivable sin, then this is where I'm kind of like.

Oh, you're talking about yeah, the unforgivable sin component, suicide to be.

Suicide, because you can't repent of suicide because there's no more time left to do that.

Um just to know that like there's always room in every Jesus story for him to surprise us.

Yeah, it's always surprised toward the direction of hope.

And so if you have someone that's like a loved one that you've lost to suicide, just to have that be like he he can surprise, and you can pray.

I I'm I'm in this camp, I've lost people by suicide.

I'm I can pray toward like Lord have mercy on their soul.

Like, just have mercy.

They sinned.

That was a major mistake.

Have mercy on them.

And so Yeah, I'm always surprised by Jesus, and it's always in that hopeful direction.

It's never like, oh, Jesus surprised me and now I'm like really terrified and ruined.

And really the root of that idea of the unforgivable sin is I mean, there's only one sin in the Bible that is the unforgivable sin, right?

They say it's the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

And I I don't think that it's talking about suicide in that scripture.

Um that's a whole different conversation, a whole different thing.

Which maybe Christian culture makes suicide a lot.

Well, the root of that is in in like, well, it goes all the way back to Catholicism, it was a big deal because there's very much a culture uh in parts of Christianity that are you sin, now go repent, and the next time you sin, go repent.

And there's a health to that.

Part of that is like, yeah, I should when I mess up.

Repentance becomes the mechanism for absolution.

Or like, so if I were driving a car and I think it also has to do with like Catholicism and having like confession and things right over you before you die, all that's like.

So when you sin, like there's a book called uh I years ago, I don't really love the the guy who wrote it, but it uses this analogy, uh, and I don't have to.

Okay.

No one's accusing you.

No, I love it.

You're saying don't read don't necessarily read this book.

There's just a good analogy in the book.

But there is this analogy where it talks about like uses this analogy of like a diamond.

Oh yeah, I don't like this guy either.

But the analogy is interesting.

Uh but the the idea is like the diamond represents like a clean spirit and soul.

And what we tend to do is we we get things dirty.

And so certain views of Christianity are like, yeah, when the diamond gets dirty, you you go clean it off in the river, and now you're clean again.

And the next time it gets-the next time that it gets dirty, you gotta do the same thing.

And that's kind of there's a branch of that's how it works.

Yeah, you sin, then you repent, you sin, then you repent, you sin, you repent.

And every time you sin, you're dirty until and he was like, No, no, the diamond is like lodged in a rock in a waterfall.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The graces.

The graces, it actually is a really good analogy.

And I definitely agree more with that than I do with the the washing in the river every time.

So that's where that kind of comes from.

Well, yeah, you you kill yourself.

You don't have the ability then to repent.

But that always means that the only repentance that ever matters is the most recent one.

Right.

You know?

And people are more complicated than that.

And I think God has much more I see in Jesus a much more understanding.

There's a compassion that's more expansive than ours.

And you can't, if you have lost someone to suicide, um, the Lord.

I'm glad Jesus is the judge and not anyone else.

Because he's really good.

And I guess what you're saying, if only Judas had waited, we could we probably Well and I don't I don't and also I don't think that Judas's suicide is the mark of him being lost either.

If anything, if anything, I think it shows the depth to which he was he realized his betrayal of Jesus was wrong.

He couldn't live with himself.

Honestly.

And I've sinned a lot and I can still live with myself.

So what's that saying?

Maybe maybe I don't take it seriously.

It reminds me of the mark of the beast, saying, like, the people that take the mark of the beast won't be able to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

And it's it's a metaphor for your all of your thoughts and all of your actions, it's on their hand and on their forehead, will be only evil all the time, like the flood, essentially.

Right.

And so like when it says Satan entered him, it's like he has aligned himself.

That's that's probably the moment that you would be like, There's the ultimate failure.

I am with I am with Satan.

I know that on this team I can't inherit that.

And that causing that level of despair is probably the the trigger for that.

So and a good reminder too that uh Satan will never leave you better off than when he found you.

That's never never happens.

When when you surrender yourself to to evil, even if you know for a moment it seems like there's a temporary gain, it's like anyone that I'm not sure I get a whole different category here of like demonic stuff and oppression and all that, but anyone who ever experiences those things, like they're broken.

Like they it just ravages you because that's Satan doesn't love anybody, he steals, kills, and destroys.

So yeah, so interesting stuff about Judas, and I'm glad I didn't have to get into all this in the message, to be honest, because it would have taken a long time, and I think it would have ended with a lot of me being like, So you know, don't really know.

But moving on.

Yeah.

But yeah, anything else before we wrap up?

I don't think so.

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That's what it Yeah, the Potter's Field, right?

Yeah.

That's even crazy too, because the they use it to buy that, but it's a prophecy fulfilled and the amount of thing.

It's still a thing, and the amount of silver that they use is like connected to prophecy.

And you want sometimes you're like Pharisees, guys.

Come on.

Well, they had to have known, did they had to have known the numb the amount of silver and Joseph and like all of the things that it's connected to.

They had they had to.

But they I think they were so convinced that they were right that it was it for them.

They weren't like, let's make it 31 pieces, because what if he's they're just like Yeah, right.

Almost like go buy that.

Yeah, whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

I'm going to uh go lay on a hard surface and get my back in better shape.

What are you gonna do?

I'm gonna go homeschool our kids because they had a lot of math questions, and I told them not to interrupt this podcast for it.

It's our first year doing the homeschool thing.

It's a journey.

What are you gonna do?

See you guys.

Bye.