“Her Dad is the Pastor” // An Interview with Dr. Brittany Walker

Well, hey everybody, welcome to another episode of our podcast here at The Grove.

And I have with me the Dr.

Britney Walker.

And you may have already, if you do listen to our podcast, we just had an amazing experience interviewing her on our platform on a Sunday morning.

And you can go watch that, listen to it, be able to get even more detail about Britney and her life and stuff.

But the whole impetus of us uh bringing Brittany into our church on the platform is because of this awesome book that I think is so needed.

There's not very much out there in the world, I think, in my opinion, reading material-wise, that really talks about the experience of being the child of a pastor.

So, Britney, I appreciate you coming and letting us have a little bit of a longer conversation.

That way I can tell the church, hey, if you we if we left you wanting more on Sunday, here you go.

You can get more.

It's right here on our podcast.

Um So my first question I wanted to ask you is like, when when did this birth, like the beginning of you thinking, man, this story needs to be told or written for others?

When did that start for you?

Yeah, that's a good question.

I honestly I have said for so long, every time something kind of like unbelievable happens, I will say something joking around, like, man, I swear I could write a book about this.

Because sometimes things happen that other people, you know, when they learn about it or if they learn about it, they say things to me like, Oh, I can't believe that happened.

So there's so many things that are unbelievable, but I probably was not even in a headspace to really consider anything until my healing journey kind of began and where I felt like I was in true ownership of my faith, my relationship with church, and also just in a good place as far as my perspective of church as well.

So I would say, I'm gonna say a decade ago, maybe.

Okay.

Ten years ago, um, I think that was about the time that I had started to heal from probably the hardest church season I had ever had.

Okay.

Was about 10 years ago.

And that was not me saying, I'm gonna write a book.

That was just like the serious thought in my head about like maybe that could be something one day that I would want to do.

But, you know, ten years ago I was also in the middle of getting my doctorate.

Um I was freshly married.

I was, you know, not really in a season where I had a lot of extra time.

Um and then five years ago is probably when I really started thinking about it because I got to a place where I was like, okay, I think I have time for this.

I think I'm in a really good place.

Um, and then three years ago is when the conversations really started happening and I started to actually write and um kind of gather thoughts and what I really thought this would look like.

So Yeah.

But I think the and to summarize your question, I would say ten years ago is when I really got in a place where I was like, this is something that needs to happen.

This is something that could be beneficial.

It was just a matter of finding the time and really narrowing it down.

Because to be honest with you, even writing a book about something so big felt daunting because it's like, where do I start?

Um I I admire it because even you saying that, I'm like, you know, first of all, I don't know that I will ever in my life feel like, you know what, I actually might have time to write a book.

I I I admire that because I'm like, I know that's not your full-time gig.

I know that you even just being a mom alone is enough.

Like, no, you got three kids, man.

There's no way you have time to write a book.

Yeah.

Uh so I'm always impressed when I hear people and also the length of time, like when you say, Really, it really started, the conversation began three years ago.

From the conversation beginning to publishing a three-year period, just the thought of that could be almost daunting for anybody that's thinking about writing a book.

So well, just uh if you are thinking about writing a book, it doesn't have to take that long.

Oh, okay.

Well that's good to know.

I I had a lot of breaks uh in between writing.

I probably honestly could have done this in a serious year of work and thinking and things like that, but my timeline was a little delayed because of life, like you said, and my kids.

I had a whole baby while I was you had a whole human while you were writing this book.

Didn't you move also?

I moved, yes.

I lived in Virginia when I started writing this book.

I was PK at the time, actually.

And my family moved across the country.

No, live in Kentucky.

So that also we did that while I was 34 weeks pregnant.

These are major life experiences.

Moving, having a baby.

Oh, let's write a book.

Luckily, I was under contract with the publisher.

Um and Rayner Publishing is who I worked with, and they were uh so nice and flexible with that and understanding that because I did have a deadline of when I had to submit my manuscript, and so I just reached out just to kind of be like, hey, this is going on.

And they immediately, yeah, all these things are going on, and I was immediately met with like you need to take care of yourself, we can extend this deadline, it's not a big deal.

So that's awesome.

Um yeah.

So, anyways, it it is certainly a daunting um process, but it doesn't have to take three years.

That's good news.

If you're out there listening and you want to write a book, it don't have to take that long.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you just said something that segues really well into uh the next question I wanted to ask you because you said back then I was a PK, and I'm still wrapping my mind around that language.

I wasn't expecting you to use that language Sunday when you said I was I'm I'm not a PK now.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh I was an adult PK for this amount of time, uh, but I I'm not a PK anymore.

So yeah, your dad recently retired from the pastorate.

Yep.

Um I know it's has it been a whole year?

Yes.

Okay.

What has been different for you?

No longer like just no not being a PK.

Yeah.

Uh have you noticed a difference at all?

I yes, I have.

Um in some in some ways it's been good and in some ways it's been hard.

Um but just a little bit of context.

I have been a PK for or I was a PK for 35 years.

Wow.

Um I'm 36 now.

And I mean, that is 99.9% of your life.

And truly, like I was born as a PK.

Um and so, you know, growing up and in my teenage years, and then the only time where it didn't really quite feel the same was when I was in college and I wasn't attending church with my parents.

Um I was in Lexington, I went to University of Kentucky, and then my parents were in Virginia.

That was they moved while I was there.

Yeah.

So during that time period, I would it would feel kind of like I was PK when I would go to Virginia and visit them, but I did have, you know, my own kind of thing going on at that time.

But I I was still a PK.

Things did still impact me.

I just didn't feel it as hard, I don't think, because I wasn't there.

Right.

But um, yeah, this has been the first year.

Uh and so there's things about it that were hard.

I mean, my last Sunday at our church when I lived in Virginia, I cannot ever remember crying like that publicly ever.

Wow.

It was so much all the emotions released.

Yeah, it was during the like special music, and they were singing I Can Only Imagine, actually, which is like already such an emotional song.

Yeah.

And my dad was sitting next to me as he did every week.

I was in the front row, and that's where I always sat.

That's awesome.

And uh he sat with me during the music every week, and all of a sudden I'm just sobbing like my whole body is shaking.

My shoulders are shrugging, and I don't do that.

That is so off-brand for me.

And so, of course, he hugs me, and that makes me lose it even more because I was just it was my last Sunday at that church, which was already emotional enough, but then it was like a season of life ending and like chapter closing, and that was even bigger.

And anyways, he gets up and says something about it, and that just makes me lose it even more than everyone's looking at me.

Yeah, you're crying because everybody's looking at you.

I did not know this happened.

He was very emotional too, so I think he like felt the need to have to kind of explain why.

But anyways, um, so since then that was it was a very difficult chapter to close, and I knew it was going to be because I do talk in my book about there so many challenges that PKs have to kind of overcome to maintain a positive relationship with church.

But there are also just so many good things that were kind of hard to say goodbye to.

Um, one of those being four months after we moved, we would go to our new church, and you know, I'm explaining to my kids this is our new church, you know, and every week after I would pick up my, he was, let's see, four at the time.

Yeah.

Well, no, he was three at the time.

My three-year-old, I'd pick him up from his class and he would run into the sanctuary and say, Where's Papa?

Because that's what he was just used to doing.

And I'm like, not only is Papa not here, he doesn't even live in this state anymore.

He doesn't even This is bad.

Yeah.

So it's been um that that piece of it was hard is like watching that transition for my kids, I think was difficult because they were used to just being in a place where they knew everyone and everyone kind of knew them.

And yeah, um, but quickly it started to feel like home, you know.

We are members at Florence Baptist and we love it, and they have just been so welcoming and so good to our kids, and so that's awesome.

Definitely um a good landing spot for us.

But um I think one of the positives of it has been that I have made a lot of connections at church that I know for a fact are just so authentic and genuine, and it's because like people want to have a relationship with me, and it wasn't something that was like an add-on or something that was just like an automatic because you know her dad's the pastor.

There you go.

There's the book title.

And I'm not implying at all that any of my, you know, all of my connections in the past have not been authentic.

That's not it at all.

But I do know that 90% of them initiated because people were trying to welcome me because of my dad's role, you know what I mean?

And so um I certainly had very genuine and authentic relationships with people.

Um, but I think it has given me a lot of um peace and like confidence in those connections because I talk in the book about how I've had um a hard time trusting people.

Um, and just to know that like I can have these relationships with people, and like if something comes up at church, like I'm not gonna be in the middle of it.

And I'm not gonna be, you know, I'm not gonna potentially like lose a friend over something that had nothing to do with me or any position I took, you know.

That's incredible.

It's almost like it takes away this um fuse that's not been lit yet, but you know it's always there.

Right.

And that that's no longer a thing that you have to it's a not always that looming cloud in the back for you anymore.

Yeah, and it's definitely not fair to say that uh, you know, that always happened.

It didn't always happen, but it happened more times than I can count.

And I think that uh just makes you have trust issues, you know, totally with relationships um in tr in a church setting when you know that your family could at any point be tied to a conflict and you don't know where people will stand surrounding that and you'll be associated with it no matter what.

That's true.

Yeah.

Um so, anyways, I think that's been uh a really good and like interesting way to feel that I've just never felt before in church.

But I've made a lot of friends like volunteering in the nursery and rocking the babies, and um that's that's that's the class I work in.

There you go.

You're built for it.

Yeah.

So that's been that's been a really good thing about it.

Um and then also just like a weird kind of feeling was you know, it had been a couple months since we had been attending.

Our church is pretty big, and I just one day was like, Well, I need to meet my pastor.

I've never met him before, and you know, it's a big church, and it you have to be kind of intentional with that because there's lots of people that come and visit, and I know that there's a million people trying to talk to him every week, and so yeah.

Um you've never had to meet the pastor.

I never had to meet the pastor, the pastor just knew me.

That's so funny, actually.

It's it's a weird feeling.

It's like it is it's it's so funny because most people would probably be like, Yeah, of course, you know, but to me it was just very weird to be like, I'm sitting in church every week listening to someone deliver a message who I've never met personally.

Wow.

And for the first time ever in your life.

Yeah, for the first time ever.

That's kind of I'm just now really wrapping my brain around that.

You had complete, utter access to your pastor for 35 years.

Yeah, whether good or bad, I don't know.

Good bad or yeah, exactly.

Yeah, but yeah, speed dial.

Yeah, right.

So, yeah.

I I appreciate what you said too about like the emotion you felt on the last day at your church in Virginia.

Yeah.

I think that if I did not know you at all, I knew this book came out, and I knew it was I knew a general sense that this was going to be a kind of a referendum on the the struggles um of a of a child uh a pastor's child.

I think I would make an assumption like, okay, let me just guess.

Your dad, if I knew, okay, the author of this book, Dad finally is no longer a pastor, she's like dancing, totally not grieving it at all, like finally I'm free.

The book's gonna talk about just how the worst thing ever is being kicked out of a pastor.

Churches are terrible.

Am I right?

And it's not what this book is at all.

And I think that if someone's listening making that assumption, I would tell you, buckle up.

It's actually a story of someone who refused to stop loving Jesus and his church, even though you were probably given a lot of reasons to run completely away from it.

Speaking of that, I wanted to get into it.

You talk about in your book the unintended consequences of ministry.

And I kind of reread through that before we were podcasting, because it had been a little while since I read it.

And the list is just so like yes, I yep, I've seen that.

Yep, I've known my kids have experienced that.

Could you kind of walk through that list for our listeners?

Sure.

Um the reason that I structured the book this way was because I want people to understand that I understand, and I think all families in the ministry understand that some of these things are so culturally like ingrained in us, it's not something's gonna change overnight, you know?

Would I love for some of these unintended consequences to slip away?

Yes.

Um, but I do realize, and I think most families that are impacted by them realize that they do kind of, for lack of better words, come with the territory, right?

Right.

Um some things that I do think maybe we control a little bit more than we do, but for the most part, like these aren't things that I think people are doing to like intentionally harm PKs or or pastors' families.

And I do talk about more intentional harm kind of later in the book.

But these are things that I just wanted people to kind of understand are things that they struggle with, and they do kind of come with the territory.

And I think that there's things that while we might not always be able to change them, we can certainly help support through those challenges a little bit better than I think we do sometimes.

Um, and so one of the things I talk about is family dynamics.

Um I'll just give a couple examples of this, but you know, growing up, I have more than I can count memories of you know being on vacation with my family, and my dad has to leave to attend to church business.

And you know, whether that be something happened or someone got sick and is in the hospital, or you know, even geez, when I was little, like probably in my you know, elementary school days, I would say my dad was serving at a church where there wasn't really like a staff, there wasn't like an office staff to answer phones, and so church calls were forwarded to his phone on vacation.

Whoa.

And you know, I don't know if it was a phone or a beeper.

It was something though.

It was something, it was the early 90s.

Okay, it could have been a pager, yeah.

Yeah, it could have been, or maybe it was like right after he got a cell phone, I'm not sure.

But um, anyways, I know that like we'd be on the beach and he'd have to like go take a call, or because every church call was kind of straight to his to him in Florida.

Um and you know, that that's more of a challenge in smaller churches, you know, but it certainly is can still impact when there's not really a staff to take over when um the pastor is with spending time with his family, and you know, I don't think that that's healthy.

And I think that um I talk about how I think churches can support with that by like having a plan in place um and and making designated time for pastors to be with their families.

Right.

Because that is very important.

Um and I also just while I'm on this topic um outline in the beginning of the book uh Pastor Burnout, and I talk about statistics surrounding Pastor Burnout and how, you know, I think there's a statement in the book that says something along the lines of like, you might be wondering, I've been talking about Pastor Burnout.

What does that have to be do with PKs?

The answer is everything.

It has everything to do with PKs, really impacts family dynamics.

Um I also talk about invasion of privacy.

I give some examples of how I felt like I was living in a spotlight or in a glasshouse or a fishbowl, whatever the comparison may be.

Um I felt like I truly had no privacy.

I would be driving around town, and next thing I know, my dad's you know, telling me someone's telling him I'm running stop signs or I'm speeding, or and you know, who knows?

I don't know.

Wow, you were on a you were a bolo.

Uh didn't even ask for that life.

And to be to be completely transparent too, growing up, I mean you knew me growing up, I was pretty like by the book.

I feel like I was a rule follower.

I tried to people please as much as I could.

Uh so it's not like I'm out doing illegal activities everywhere or you know, I'm I'm really was trying to live up to the reputation I knew I needed to have.

Um but it always felt like it was never good enough.

Something was gonna happen, you know, or I was gonna be called out for something that I knew, you know, it's I I don't know anybody else who's like parents or getting phone calls about what their kids are doing.

Yeah, I was trying to think if there's another profession where that happens.

And who doesn't even know you?

You know, it'd be different if they were like a family friend and they were worried about me.

Right.

But it's more like your kid shouldn't be acting this way because of your role.

Um makes me cringe.

And then identity is the big one.

I talk about how it's very hard for PKs to really um discover who they are because their identity is always tied to their parents' role in church.

Um somehow I talk about how that's where I got the title of my book, Her Dad's a pastor, because it was always whenever I was introduced, it was always this is Brittany, her dad's the pastor, her dad's my pastor, or whatever the case may be.

That was always the tagline.

Always the tagline, yes.

Um and then isolation, how it's very common to feel lonely because you don't feel understood.

Um that was a big surprise for my dad when he was reading the book, is he said, I had no idea you felt isolated.

You always seem to be surrounded by people.

Yes, but those people knew a version of me that I was masquerading, not necessarily me.

And then that makes you feel very isolated when it's you know, they don't really know me, and I don't really have anyone who I feel like loves me for me because I'm not really showing me to people.

You were still putting you were still trying to be a version of what they thought you should be.

Right.

Uh that's very deep.

And so it's like, yeah, like to the the public, I have all these friends.

And again, it's not to diminish true friends that I do have, because I did have some very close friends growing up.

Two of them I had growing up here in this church, I'm still best friends with.

Um that's awesome.

But I would say widely, I did feel like most people really didn't know me, and therefore I felt very alone.

Um, I talk about relocation as an unintended consequence because this is something I we're not gonna be able to change, and we shouldn't, right?

Because we want to be in the center of God's will and where he wants us to be, and but sometimes it's hard to relocate.

Um and I tell a story in my book about how for the very first time uh was it 2024?

Two years ago.

Yeah.

Someone said to me I'm so sorry for everything you're you you gave up when your family moved to Virginia, but we're so happy that you did.

And it felt that's the first time anyone said that to me.

Wow.

Anyone it's the first time anyone acknowledged my pain, the first time anyone acknowledged how hard that was for me.

I tell the story about when my parents moved to Virginia and left me in uh Lexington and how we just sat on the apartment, my apartment doorstep and just cried because it was so hard.

Um and when I went to Virginia, I have so many people there that I love and care about, so many people with the best intentions.

Yeah.

We're so you're gonna love it here.

We're so excited to have you, blah, blah, blah.

But I never really felt like valid or that like my grief was seen in all of that.

And um, I think that just like supporting your your pastor's family if they do relocate to your church and like acknowledging that what they had to give up and talking about their home and friends and not just pretending like none of it exists and they're gonna love it here so much because I can tell you I didn't want to be there and I didn't love it there for a long time.

That's the reality.

I didn't.

I it did grow to be home and I did eventually, but like in that moment, it just like that wasn't I wasn't here in that.

Um and then expectations and rebellion, I talk about, and you know, this one I kind of debated where to put it in the book.

Um because I actually do think it's a little more something we can control and a little more intentional when we put so many um unrealistic expectations on PKs.

That's a fair point.

So it kind of could have fit in the other section.

I ended up putting it here just because I do think it's rebellion is an unintended consequence of the high expectations.

Like people, when they throw those expectations on you, I don't think they do it with the intention of like now you're gonna rebel and you're gonna abandon your faith and you're never gonna go back to church again, you know.

But that's the reality of it.

And placing, I just want to say, placing high expectations on PKs that are higher than those of their peers who have also been raised in church, you know, whether that's to be spiritual pressure or the way that they dress or the way that they act or the way that they drive or the way, you know, any of these things, um that is harmful.

Um it's incredibly harmful, and it's also very unfair.

And it's something that we absolutely should change because when the expectation is so high that it feels unattainable, which I think in a lot of cases it is unattainable, for children to meet these expectations that are placed on them, um, it makes you really just not want to try and kind of throw your hands in the air.

And I think that's when you start to just go the opposite direction.

Yeah.

It's like if I can't win at all, why try?

Right.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of how the book is structured, and those are the unintended consequences I talk about with all of these.

Similar to the relocation example that I gave, I do have pieces of advice for churches.

And like, you know, I know you can't necessarily change relocation for pastors' families, but here's how you can support them through it.

Or I know that identity is something they might continue to struggle with because uh other children with parents in leadership positions also struggle with that, you know.

So um, but here's how you can support them through that.

And so um my whole purpose with outlining these was to try to also come to the table with solutions.

I love that to make it better for pastors, families, or um maybe any PK that could um be impacted by these um and the implementation of them.

Yeah, I love it.

It's not just uh a memoir of your experience, it really is like here is a breakdown of the issues, and here's what churches could do to engage those.

Right.

And I love that part of the book, and I think it's not something I would have expected, except for the fact you told me you were doing it.

Yeah, this is happening.

We we need to help churches get better.

Uh I'm probably going off script a little bit, but I uh found out that uh it was a conversation you had with your hubby Matt was like, this is the this is what I've heard you say that I I think you need to remember that eternal life is at stake here.

Yeah, yeah.

Lives are at stake here.

That urgency of like there are this, depending on how children of pastors expi react to these unintended consequences, could make a break.

Are they going to cut and run from the faith, or are they going to have the kind of support, hopefully there's some mitigating things in there that do happen that cause them to just hang in there, see that for what it is, and hold on to their faith in in Jesus.

How did you do that?

Well there were many times growing up where I truly didn't have much of an interest in being at church.

It was not an option though.

I was gonna be here no matter what under the age of 18 because my mom was gonna make sure I was.

There you go.

That was uh unfortunately it was the Clark rule too.

Yeah.

And you know, to be fair, I've also I never expressed a lot of this to my family.

Like a lot of these were surprises when I became an adult and I started kind of talking about my experiences and realizing to myself, wait, I actually think my parents would be in my corner with this.

You know what I mean?

This wasn't like something that I was scared to talk to them about anymore.

I was scared to talk to them about for a long time.

And it's not because they didn't support me, it's not because I didn't feel unconditionally loved by them, but it was because I thought it was normal.

Yeah.

And like it shouldn't be normal.

Um and there were, you know, times as an adult where I didn't want to go to church because why would I want to go to church when I know that there's a petition circling for my dad to be fired?

Or I sit in a business meeting and listen to people call him names and make personal accusations um and even outright lies about his character knowing that they're lying, admitting that they're lying, kind of behind the scenes, you know.

Yeah.

Um but I, if there's one thing about me, is that I'm a control girl.

I like to have control.

Okay.

And what I realized is that allowing the actions of other people to dictate how I feel about my faith, my faith, it's not theirs, it's mine.

How I feel about my relationship with church, how I feel about my relationship with Jesus, most importantly, um, it gives other people control over my life.

And if you know me, you know that that's not something I'm gonna sit with very well.

Right.

I'm not gonna relinquish that.

I'm not going to.

And you know, there are I there were times in my life I certainly did seasons where it's like, yeah, I don't want to be there, and like I did allow other people to control that.

But you know, there's nothing that Satan probably loved more than those moments.

Ah, there you go.

And um I said this when we had um our interview during a Sunday morning, but it all goes back to the I'm not gonna allow the failure of Christians to make me believe that God is something that he's not.

The failure of Christians doesn't change the character of Christ.

It's awesome.

It doesn't change the character of God and what I know to be true about him.

And so I think nailing that down for myself and really understanding it.

And honestly, a lot of talking with my therapist and really digging out what my priorities were, because I was uh in therapy at this time very regularly, um, kind of just helped me realize what my priorities were, and that was a huge party for me is I'm not relinquishing control of my life and what I what is important to me, which is my relationship with Jesus.

And I believe Jesus wants me to be in church and he wants me to be surrounded by a Christian community.

Um and so that's what I did.

And some of the journey was a lot of just putting my head down and not allowing things to distract me.

Yeah.

Um, I was famous for walking in church about one minute after it started so that no one could talk to me.

There you go.

And sitting down and then leaving as soon as it was over, like out the side door almost, because I didn't want to be distracted.

But I eventually gave that up too, because that takes away community when you're not talking to anybody, you know.

But um before a season you had to protect yourself.

I did, yeah.

But I I felt I honestly think that that was helpful for me the through a season just to get there to keep my eyes focused on why I was there, eliminate any distractions, you know.

And uh eventually I was able to get to a place where I could enjoy church community again, and I do enjoy church community now.

Oh that's so good.

You talked quite a bit on Sunday about identity, and I do think that's something that if people were to make a list, I think they would have maybe parked on church conflict, maybe relocation.

Some of the things I think um at least pastors know about.

I'm thinking about my list, what I would think about.

I think for me, hearing about identity and how being a child of a pastor really impacts, maybe puts a greater challenge on discovering your own personal identity.

To me, it's something I still think about ever since reading your book, thinking about my own kids' journey.

So describe your journey of landing to where this is my identity, and it does not have to be dependent upon the fact that I'm a pastor's kid.

A lot of that came through.

Um, I talk in my book a lot about how I think it's important to discover our own identities instead of uh uh defining it based on what other people try to set for us.

Um and something I learned along the journey for me personally was that discovery creates resilience.

And you know, this is um this is the teacher in me coming out to when I was when I was uh teaching in my classroom, one of the best practices I ever um that I use all the time was that children need to discover their own learning.

You know, I can sit there and tell them two plus two is four, but until they discover why, yeah, is it really gonna click?

You know what I mean?

And so I think a lot of these things people were trying to tell me were probably true, but I needed to discover it for myself, you know.

Um, and the the reason I believe that is because then when it's tested, I think that I yeah, I everything is more vulnerable um to being subjected to breaking down or um not sustaining the hard questions if it hasn't been fully discovered and adopted.

And so my journey with that was a lot of um a lot of just having to choose my faith and being put in positions where it was like, well, trial by fire, you know, I'm gonna have to put myself out there eventually.

I'm gonna have to, and then I think slowly feeling accepted for who I was.

Like there was uh my personality is maybe not like your textbook PK, like a reverent, quiet kind of personality.

I use a lot of humor.

Yeah.

I use sometimes dark humor to kind of like find joy in life and and to cope with hard feelings, and that is certainly not always the I feel like church culture and church spaces are not always a safe place for those kinds of personalities.

Right.

But I think like testing the water kind of helps me, like finding that people did actually appreciate those things about me.

I could be sarcastic, I could throw a joke out there, I could, you know.

If someone else is like, finally my people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Britney's one of my people.

But I like even just embracing that in myself took me so long to do because I would like find I would have moments of like, this is how I feel about this, but that it doesn't feel like that's how I'm supposed to feel about it, you know?

I'm not supposed to be like m making a joke to cope with this, or I'm not supposed to be s sarcastic or witty in this situation, but yeah, I'm feeling me in the inside, I'm feeling this, I'm thinking this.

Did you ever struggle finding people like, okay, I'm gonna crack this joke and see how it goes?

I'm gonna be sarcastic, or did you just do it and then like you were finding that people really accepted that, and that's like, okay, cool, I can really be myself.

Yeah, no, I think it think it was a matter of me eventually coming to the point where I was like, I simply don't care.

There you go.

Anyone if if I if if you if I'm not your cup of tea, that's okay.

You know what I mean?

Because I know I know my heart, I know my intentions, I know that I want to be in church and part of a Christian community for all the right reasons, you know, like these I and I can't control Yeah, I can't control how people respond to me, but I can control myself and how I and so finally I was just like, if I want to be in a position where I have authentic relationships with people, if I want to be in a position where um I feel like I can be myself, then I'm gonna have to be myself.

That's right, yeah.

And it's so freeing to do that and to realize there's community on that on the other side of that.

There's acceptance and celebration of who I am on the other side of that.

Yeah.

I mean, this is really a good lesson for anybody, honestly, because I mean I used to be a hardcore people pleaser.

I know I know that's still there.

Yeah.

I battle it still.

Yeah.

But I I just confessed to the church a few weeks ago, like, I think it's once you're a grandpa, you don't care anymore.

Yeah.

It's like I I don't care what you think of me, this is what I'm doing, you know.

And there is some healthiness to finally reaching the point where you don't care what people think about you.

Yeah.

And you're just authentic.

And I do think that like owning who I am as a person, my my I have a very like natural leader personality.

Um, I felt like I made that smaller for so long just to try to like fit in this box, and I like minimized myself and my opinions and my capabilities to try to just fit this like quiet, reserved kind of personality.

Okay.

But owning who I actually am has put me in so many positions where I feel like I've been able to lead and I've been able to um make a difference in that because that is more of my personality, you know.

Like I I all of my college, all of my graduate degrees are in leadership, like that's what I love to do.

And and you can't really do that while you're making yourself smaller, yeah, all the time.

And um, so I think that there's been great benefit of that.

And I've tried to put that to use in church spaces with volunteering and teaching and leading in whatever way I feel called to at the time.

And so I do think there's been a great reward, and I think God has a use for um people of every background and every personality type and every um skill set, you know?

Absolutely.

We don't all have to be the same, and we don't all have to look the same.

That's exactly right.

So, anyways, I just think it's uh paid off in the long run, and I've been able to um see a lot of benefits of that.

But it was certainly very hard, especially when everything you do is just scrutinized.

Oh, no doubt.

You know.

So when you're talking earlier about uh unintended consequences and about privacy, I thought of just it just came to my brain, Sherry and I have laughed about it, talked about it a few times over the years.

But just a personal uh example that we've experienced, there came a point we go out almost every Sunday to a restaurant to eat, and we meet her side of the family, her dad's a minister, her brother's a minister.

My son at one point was on church staff for six years.

So we're all coming from four different churches with our families to meet for this meal.

Um, but in some of the early years when the kids were little, I learned the hard way.

I finally started telling Sherry, because she would get to the restaurant first, like, leave me an empty seat in the middle, not on the end.

Uh-huh.

Because inevitably, if we go to a restaurant and I sit on the end, and you know, you're talking about restaurants where they put a bigger group together, they'll put you at this really big table.

There's other seats next to you in the big tables, these community tables.

So inevitably I'd get there a little late, I'd sit on the end, there'd be another church member eating somewhere else.

Yeah.

And they come up while we're maybe just beginning our food.

Yeah.

And they'll plop down like in the famous words, and I know your dad has heard so many times, you know, while I got you here, while while while while we're at it, let's talk about a lot of deep, profound things.

While I got you, that's it's family dinner.

Yes, they plop down next to me, and I would tell you, uh a people pleaser of me wanted to be able to help them, but in those situations, I actually found myself getting mad on the inside.

Like, ah, don't didn't I see I would never do this to somebody.

Didn't I see we're trying to have a meal?

So, of course, my rather than lovingly confront that, I just said, put me in the middle.

Uh but my kids really endured a lot of those kind of things when we go out to eat together and stuff.

We we still talk about it.

One of my favorite quotes in your book, I want to read it, says, Every PK I know has had to navigate similar struggles in one way or another.

The reason this is so important for people to understand is that establishing our own identity is not just about independence, it's essential to spiritual growth.

When PKs are given the freedom to explore their passions, make their own choices, and even stumble along the way, they're more likely to discover, which you were talking about earlier, a faith that's truly their own.

Without that, faith can remain something inherited instead of discovered and lived.

And I love that.

And so, how would you describe how you have grown spiritually?

Maybe you've already alluded to this earlier, but this isn't just about yes, I'm treated more like another kid.

It's about like essential to spiritual growth.

Let me have my own journey of discovery.

So I know you said that part of it has been like growing into the leader that you are now being more who you are, wiring-wise, personality-wise.

How have you seen that also play out spiritually for you?

Yeah, I think uh the biggest thing I would just add, in addition to everything I've already said about like discovering our own identity and building our own faith, is that geez, there's so many things to say, but I think that when things do happen, you know, inevitably we're gonna be hurt.

Um, people are gonna let us down, church hurt, you know, all the things like I still fully know that I can experience church hurt even though I'm no longer a PK.

Yeah.

And very well could again, you know, but I think the biggest difference is having a strong foundation um makes you stronger when those things come up.

And prior to discovering my own faith and feeling really good about me owning it as an individual, not just something I inherited, not just something I was supposed to have, but me really owning it, um has made it's like the winds can come and the storms and you know, but it's like my foundation is still there.

Yeah.

And it's much easier to rebuild, you know, that from that hurt and rebuild from any challenges that you've experienced when you still have that strong foundation.

And so I think putting in the effort to make sure that that foundation is there and it's something that you know you own, you know you worked hard for that, you discovered it, you asked all the hard questions, you fought with it, you wrestled with it, and not just something like you inherited because you had this title and you were supposed and you went to church every Sunday with your parents.

Yeah, you know.

I love that.

Um, so I would say for me, that was the biggest spiritual game changer.

Um and that did not come until later until my adult life, and I think that shocks a lot of people.

But again, it's like when you're playing this role and you're just kind of in survival mode, yeah, there's not really a lot of time to sit down and wrestle and and fight and through all these tough things because then it's like, what if someone sees me being weak?

Or what if someone sees me have these questions?

Or what if you know, and then what does that mean?

And does that mean that my these are questions I ask myself, does that mean that people think that, you know, my dad's not teaching me the way he's supposed to?

Because like I have questions.

And then if they don't think he's teaching his own kids, are they gonna think that he's not a good leader?

And are they gonna think he's not shepherding, you know, his flock the way he's supposed to?

And Wow, like that's a lot of pressure.

It is.

I can't be weak.

I can't show that.

I can't show those questions, those moments of doubt.

And even like in small group settings in Bible school and or Bible studies and Sunday school, I would truly feel like if I asked a question, that was like a bad reflection of like the spiritual devotion and attention I'm getting at home, you know?

Yeah.

Which is so crazy.

I know.

It is, and yet at the same time, like I mean.

Because of what you've experienced, you know, yeah.

When you do experience that hurt in that moment, like, okay, well, I best not and ask that question then, you know.

Yeah.

So just like you mentioned, like, if I don't even show up with a Bible, I'm gonna hear about it.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I am in some ways, like, ashamed to admit that that strong foundation didn't come for me until I was older.

Um, but at the same time, I I'm I'm realistic and understanding why.

I know why.

I just I I was in so much survival mode, I felt like I didn't really have the space to explore and learn and stumble and you know, all the things that are necessary for us to build that strong foundation.

It's not just something that happens overnight.

It takes a lot of effort and and time.

I think a lot of people have that story differently outside of the realm of being a child of a pastor just because of they had a big church upbringing, but they never again felt permission to ask hard questions, struggle, wrestle, and just kind of went with the flow and eventually owned their faith later too.

And I think I think what is good to have people like you sharing that story because at the end of the day, like I've I have conversations with people all the time that may want to get rebaptized, and they'll be sheepish about it.

Like, you know, I mean, I did do that when I was seven or when I was twelve, or yeah, maybe even as an infant or whatever, and and I'm like, are you kidding me?

Like, nothing nothing negates the prior.

Everything was building towards something all along.

God was redeeming tough experiences to get to here, and here is really, really good.

Not that you want to relive all of those crazy experiences um again, but what exists now is so good.

Yeah.

Something to be celebrated for sure.

For sure.

Yeah.

Um you make a lot of suggestions to the church in your book.

Do you have a favorite one?

That's your favorite challenge or suggestion to the book, to the church?

I have a couple.

All right.

Um the first one is the one that I already talked about with relocation, because I just feel I just feel like it's such a simple thing.

And I know so many families of ministers who have had to relocate.

It's such a common thing in ministry.

Yes.

But one of my suggestions is if your PKs have experienced relocation, acknowledge their pain and celebrate where they came from, all while welcoming them to their new home.

The two do not have to exist separately.

Pain and celebration can exist together.

Such a good thing.

And I think we forget that sometimes.

And again, so much of it is well intended.

I know that.

You don't want to sit there and be like, oh, I'm so sad for you.

Like while you're trying to encourage them.

Right.

But I also just think that validating it and acknowledging it is part of healing, you know, there too.

And we have to go through all those feelings.

And so that was one of my favorite ones just because I didn't know that I even needed that until someone said it to me how many years later?

Uh 14 years after my family moved, someone said that to me.

And I was like, that's what I wanted to hear 14 years ago.

That's what I wanted to hear all along.

And you know, so that's so cool.

That was a big one.

And I don't even know if he knows that.

It was actually in a Facebook comment he said that.

Oh, wow.

Because uh he I had made a post about uh a trip that I made home and how good it was.

Ah, and his response was, you know what, you gave that up to come here.

Yeah.

We'll send him a link to this podcast and say I already told.

I already told him personally.

I was like, look at page, whatever that is.

That was you.

Oh, that's so cool.

Um but the other one is creating an environment where PKs can experience love, grace, and acceptance even when they fall short.

I love that.

Um, providing a space where they can grow spiritually without pressure being perfect.

I never had that.

Um that space.

And I sometimes look back and wish that I was the same advocate for myself that I am now.

Yeah.

But I wasn't.

And um I I wish that I was, and I wish more people understood that even if it doesn't look like it's being harmful in the moment, yeah, it doesn't mean it's not.

Um and I I think we just need to be so much better about extending grace when PKs do fall short.

Because we're going to, we're humans.

Absolutely.

Um, we're just like anyone else.

And us falling short should not be, oh, well, that's a reflection on your parents.

You know, us falling short shouldn't mean that we need to endure further consequences or public shaming or whatever it may be because we're not perfect.

Um I would ask that people consider, you know, how if you have children, how would you want your child to be treated if they fall short?

And how would you want love and and grace to be extended to them?

And I would encourage you to turn around and do that to everyone in your life, including PKs, if if that's true.

If applicable in any circumstance.

So I actually believe one of the greatest solutions to getting there is this thing we're doing.

Yeah.

Because I've thought that through in my mind, like, how do we create that environment, you know?

How do we kind of intercept the default set of expectations that people are just gonna have.

Yeah.

I mean, my experience is it it people might want to say, oh, well, it's probably just the curmudgeon longtime church member that's whatever, more judgmental or something.

It's not, it's actually even peers.

Yeah.

Uh from what I've experienced and seen myself.

It's like there's even your own age group that there are some of them will be like expecting you to be a certain way because of your parents.

And so I do think we just got to keep telling this story and teaching it and keep keep it in front of people to say we just have to be that intentional to remind our whole church family and all the the big C church, like, hey, let your pastor's kids just be kids.

Give them the same space to stumble, grow, and learn and ask and doubt and wrestle that we we will totally allow any other kid to do.

I think we just gotta keep beating the drum.

And I would say too, on top of that, people don't like hard conversations, but sometimes they need to happen.

Yeah.

And like if it's happening in the moment and there's an opportunity for a loving spiritual example of accountability, I say take it.

You know, like we need to be better about having conversations.

Like now, I know that if if I were to be encountered with some of these things, um uh and someone made a comment to me that I, you know, should be a certain way because I was a PK, I would certainly push back.

You know, children don't always feel uh comfortable doing that.

Yeah, of course, but like in my adult life I certainly would.

But like other adults, if if we know that that's going on or we see it happen or we witness it, um, I think another game changer is addressing it kind of head on.

You know, it doesn't mean attacking people, it doesn't, you know, I'm I'm talking about like a spiritual example of accountability.

Yeah.

And uh I people don't like that and it's uncomfortable.

No, yeah.

It can be, you know, but I think it's important.

Yeah, I agree.

And you talk a lot about difference makers in your book, and I do think when people, such as your friend who said, Thanks for your sacrifice to move, just those little moments are those people become difference makers.

If someone picks up on how, oh wow, you know what?

I think I'm a little surprised that Bill's kid dressed like that, you know, whatever, and someone picks up on that, hey, he's just a kid too.

Why would you why would you say that?

Why would you think that?

If someone steps in and intercepts that, yeah, I think those are the difference makers we need to have.

Someone willing to you don't have to be mean about it, don't have to be nasty, but just call it out lovingly, you know.

I think that's great.

You had mentioned relocation before we move on to another question.

Um I hope you don't mind me saying this, but our I'm just gonna go for it.

Uh but our Minister of Music, Matt Kiefer, he's been on staff with us just a little over a year.

His one-year anniversary was actually about a month ago.

Um, and so I was a big part of that process.

We had a committee that did did the search and was very hands-on.

The way Matt is wired.

Uh I I told him, You're just built resilient because things kind of moved fast.

He happened to no longer be on staff at his church in Texas.

Uh, when he applied, it was kind of later in the process.

And once we started talking to him, things started moving more quickly, and it was like boom, boom, boom.

Next thing you know, he's up here in Northern Kentucky.

Things moved quick, seemed pretty cheerful about it.

His wife Danielle, same.

They got a son named Carter, same.

But we had an annual, we kind of call it a calendaring retreat, which sounds so boring, but we love it.

We kind of just get away, usually somewhere close to the skyline of Cincinnati, where we can see it out a window and just talk about vision, do something silly and fun.

And yeah, we work on the calendar, but we were sharing what God, how Jesus is shepherding us right now.

Went around the circle and did that.

And uh Matt got tearful is it this past year, and just kind of started sharing about the past year, and it hit me.

And I'm like, Matt, like I underestimate just how big of a deal it was that you guys picked up and moved from North Texas and planted roots as best you could here in Northern Kentucky.

It was a good reminder.

Yeah.

That there's still a little emotion and pain to that.

Yeah.

You know?

And when you're in that position too, like I I I speaking from my own personal experience, obviously don't want to speak for him, but it might be the same.

Like, you want to feel thankful for this new opportunity and you want to show people you're thankful for this new opportunity.

Um so you feel like you do kind of have to like suppress all that stuff going on, yeah, on the inside.

Because it's like you show pain or sadness surrounding that, then it's like, does that mean you're not thankful for this new opportunity?

You know what I mean?

Like, will people take it that way?

Right.

I would certainly never want anyone to take it that way.

Like, I know every time my family has moved, it has been right in line with I know what my dad feels God is asking him to do.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And you trust that.

I do, fully.

I fully trust that.

But doesn't it?

Doesn't make it easy.

Yeah, it doesn't make it hard.

Yeah.

It's funny because I look back on it, I like gradually gave Matt a Kentucky Wildcat hat, your first Kentucky gear, did the same with Bingles and Reds.

Here I am, like, yeah, you're gonna love it here.

But like, I even think I was forgetting this is one of the hardest things they've ever been through, honestly.

Yeah.

Uh now they love it, yeah, but there's still a lot of emotion to it.

It's such a good reminder of that, uh, for sure.

I want to give you another quote from your book, and just a very short sentence, but it says, one of the biggest misconceptions is that PKs live in a hyper-spiritual household where every conversation is about God, theology, and the Bible.

And I just want to say, A to the man of that.

Like, if people, if they have whatever conception they have of what Sherry and I were like at our house, like it is we're just a bunch of goofballs sometimes being silly.

So um how have you experienced this misconception personally?

Yeah, I think it comes most of it comes back to spiritual pressure with that one because I just in in like I said, in the moment I thought it was normal.

And I was like, Yeah, maybe I was pissing anymore.

Maybe I am, you know.

Looking back, I'm like, I have the same exact exposure to church, to the Bible, to, you know, in Bible instruction as my other peers being raised in church by Christian family.

You know, I talk to my parents about very regular things, you know, my friends in school and sports and my job and you know, whatever.

And um I don't know why there's this belief almost that like I should know more or be more spiritually competent or mature than my peers, but there was.

And it came up in so many different ways.

Um it came up when they would need like a volunteer to pray.

Well, Brittany, you must be comfortable praying in front of a group.

What a good what an example.

It's like, you want to pray?

It's like, no, well, not really.

I'm being honest.

Yeah, really, exactly.

Um, and because of that time of my life, you know, if someone asked me to pray now, sure.

Okay.

At that time of my life, I that I didn't want to talk in front of people.

I spent all my life just trying to like blend in and like be quiet and don't say the wrong thing, you know, and like so sheesh, like, way to like just slap some anxiety on this like teenage girl just because you assume she's like more competent in that area, you know.

Yeah.

Um I've given an example of like how I have been called out in Sunday school for like using my table of contents to locate a book of the Bible and not just turning straight there.

And it's like, well, surely you know your books of the Bible, you're the pastor's daughter, you know.

And oh my gosh.

Uh there's an example.

Another example is like not knowing the answer to a question.

I think it's another reason why I was scared to ask questions.

Yeah.

Um, because it's almost like you're just supposed to know.

And you don't.

Like you don't know more than anyone else.

And I think, like you said, pastors would also find themselves in that position, too.

Like we're all learning together.

And I had the same exposure as anyone else in a Christian family who was instilling those values in their children.

Yeah.

Um, but it was just always treated very differently.

And even just down to like, well, Brittany would um, you know, I friends at school, um, which hindsight is kind of funny, actually.

But it's like, um, oh, don't say that in front of her.

She is the pastor's daughter.

Oh, that's funny.

Oh, wow.

So it's just things like that, where I think that all goes back to the spiritual pressure thing that I was talking about, about the misconception of us living in a hyper-spiritual household.

That's that's how it presented.

Was more pressure.

No doubt.

And just knowing that, like, kids are still kids, teenagers just are still teenagers, and like, golly, I associate you so strongly with high school musical in my brain.

Because I remember how much you like had all the words of the songs memorized.

I just remember that was a big deal.

I think Molly was really into it too, my daughter.

And like I just think we were just like, I was actually probably overcompensated.

I was so afraid to ruin my kids and dad, and which was a terrible, terrible thing to let myself think about.

But sometimes I actually I've I've told Sherry and I have this morbid conversation every now and then, like, if you were to go back and do it again, what would you do differently?

What are your regrets?

Uh, but I I've said it my number one answer is always that I would really make everything about Christianity, Christ, God, church, all the things, I would make it so organic and authentic and real.

Yeah.

I I and I say make it that way, like maybe the the real thing is to don't make it at all.

Just let it be what it really is.

Yeah.

I think sometimes I was so afraid they would feel pressure that I almost like repressed a little bit, like, man, I don't know, I would, you know, almost be try to be not as churchy with them.

Right.

So that I wanted them to feel like they didn't have to worry about me making household living, like you're just being a hickory grover, you're just being a church.

Yeah.

Um, but I think that the danger in that was they didn't see me reading my Bible at quiet time all the time because I kept it a little bit more private.

And also to be able to see that that still tracked with all the other stuff we did do.

Like it all is the same.

Like us hanging out, watching sports in front of the TV in the living room, going to grab coffee, uh, the silly dancing we would do around the house all the time, Molly trying to teach me how to do just dance on the Wii.

Like, all that is like none of that is separate from our walk with Jesus.

Right.

And I think I worried too much that I found if I made too much about faith stuff in the house, that it would suppress them just growing up as kids.

Yeah.

So I kind of overcompensated.

That was my biggest, I think, mistake.

I think that ties in with PK's overcompensating for people to think they're normal.

Sometimes we go the other way.

There you go.

And that's how it's that's a great point, too.

Yeah.

I definitely overcompensated in that way mul many times.

Did you?

That I can think of.

Yeah.

And a lot of decisions I'm just not proud of, you know, in whether it be high school or college, maybe.

That's probably like the time period I'm thinking of.

Yeah.

It's like just to prove that I'm not a prude or I'm not, you know, any of these labels that people try to be like.

Yeah.

See?

So, I mean, you know, we we all make mistakes and live and learn, I know, but I can definitely identify times where it's like that probably wouldn't have been my first move or my natural instinct, but it was like trying to prove something.

Yeah.

So yeah.

I know a week of park on probably this for a long time.

Like, I g I do think people who are a part of a pastoral family understand church conflict's a big one.

Yeah.

And when you were talking at the very beginning about what caused you to want to write the story, and you're like, man, that's unbelievable.

You know, this unbelievable thing happened.

You wouldn't even believe it if I told you.

Yeah.

Is it is kind of like truth is stranger than fiction.

And I remember one of the examples you put in your book was someone literally putting a for sale sign in your dad's yard, in your mom and dad's yard, uh, because of what was going on, you know.

And I I really struggled with church business meetings even myself because I've seen what they can turn into, and they're terrible.

And me and your dad, who I'm close to, have I heard him say this so many times, it's so true.

Every every business meeting at a church is an opportunity for conflict, and you just have to know it.

It's just always there.

Um, but how did you get past that and still want to be a part of the church?

Some of the unbelievable things that you experienced in church business meetings and conflict in general.

Yeah.

Um time heals people too.

I've noticed like I defin I definitely didn't want to right away.

It took a long time to kind of like separate myself from it.

Um, but I think a lot of that comes back to the control thing.

Like, I'm not gonna give up control here in this situation.

Um so it kind of started with probably a really solid group of difference makers during that time.

Um that was the hardest season of church hurt I've ever had.

Um I was just to give some context, 23.

I had just graduated from UK.

I made the decision because home was no longer home because my family wasn't there in northern Kentucky.

So I had to kind of make the decision like, what am I gonna do after college?

I can move back home where some of my friends are, but that's not really home.

My parents aren't there, I have no family left there.

You know, I have some family in Ohio, but um like Lexington isn't really home to me.

All my college friends are probably gonna move away, you know, when we graduate, like what am I gonna do?

So I decided to move to Virginia where my parents were.

Um, and actually two of my best friends moved with me, so that was really fun.

But when I got there, um almost instantly, it was the uh probably toughest season of church conflict I've ever experienced.

I've heard my dad say it was the hardest season of his life as well.

Um yeah, we I mean, we've had everything during that time, and of course I was living with them at the time.

I had just moved there, it was the summer.

Yeah.

Um, and I, you know, had a teaching job lined up, but you don't start get paid until September.

Yeah.

I didn't have any money.

I was like babysitting and stuff, but uh that I was living with them.

So I kind of had like a front row seat that whole year I was living at home.

Um and yeah, woke up to for sale sign in our yard, had you know, job ads like circled sled under my dad's office door.

Um nasty letters, people making threats about his reputation, saying to his face, I'll start this rumor about you, it doesn't have to be true to be harmful.

Were the words that I heard come out of someone's mouth in the lobby, the foyer of church after a Sunday morning.

Wow.

Um I sat on the pew.

In the front with my dad through more than I can count worship sets before he had to go stand up and preach where he was just sobbing from hurt and pain of what someone said to him before a service or something he was carrying from the week before or whatever it may be.

Um and you know, you talked about business meetings, and a lot of this doesn't come from disagreement, right?

Like we can disagree.

Right, exactly.

None of this is me saying, like, you should never disagree with your pastor and have your own opinion.

Like, of course you should have an opinion.

That is an important part of business meetings.

Exactly.

Is so that we can make the best decisions strategically for our church or whatever it might be.

But man, I mean, talk about confronting people and having disagreements in a Christ-like way.

Like gotta reel that in, you know?

And so, um, but during that time, there was so much hurt.

Um, it was so hard to go to church and see people who I'd been friends with over the past year, like not even look at me, you know, people who uh we used to go to dinner with all the time, suddenly we're not invited anymore.

Um there's a really crazy alarming statistic in my book about pastors and how um how many of them identify with like having no close friends.

That's a big thing.

But think that they have so many friends.

Like the the perception is they have so many friends.

So, anyways, I say all this because during that season there were some difference makers and there were people that showed up um in ways that were beyond um anything I could have ever imagined that saved me, truly.

And I could probably say that on behalf of my parents too.

Large support system.

When you go through these things, I think it's also just realizing that, and this if you take a step back, I think this really helped me too.

What's happening is a very loud message from a very small group.

That's so awesome.

You know, like this isn't this isn't like you know, a hundred people and ninety of them are against you.

This is, I mean, in this case, this was like a thousand people and you know, very small percentage.

But the sometimes when people are angry and people are upset, they can be very, very loud and it can feel bigger than it is.

And um so with that being said, um remembering that and remembering that there were so many people who were supportive and in our corner and wanting to help and showing up with prayer and showing up with checking in and stopping by and asking how we're doing and things like that.

Um it was a very loud and very public uh church conflict.

A lot of church conflict happens behind closed doors, and maybe people who attend church might not even know it's happening.

That's true.

Um that weighs heavy as well, but I think a public display in the way that it was was the most difficult part about it.

So, anyways, I say all that because your question of like how I got through that, I think during that season, it was the group of difference makers in my book that I talk about, people that reminded me and kind of called me back to my purpose and my priority um and what I knew to be true about God Himself, despite what Christians around me were doing, um, were the game changer for me.

And, you know, being a difference maker really is as simple as showing up sometimes for people when they are in hard seasons of life and sitting with them in their grief and um seeing seeing their hurt and seeing their pain and being with them there through it, and that's exactly what happened.

Um it felt very big at that time, it was big, it was hard, but it was not it was a small group making a loud noise.

I love that.

I helped me to hear you say that.

I mean, I do think we tend to give more um volume to that.

I mean, I mean like it feels like unsurvivable.

Yeah.

Like, whoa, this is terrible.

Like, but it's such a tiny piece, and I do think a lot of um churches have experienced departures of really, really good leadership because maybe there weren't enough difference makers, maybe maybe that just was so hard, even if there were difference makers, they just like I got I gotta get out of here.

Um so I'm very grateful that you know you all got through that, you got through that, and we're able to have those very supportive relationships to help and to be able to separate and say, just because of the bad behavior of a few people, this doesn't reflect the true identity not only of God, but even the body of Christ.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think what's scary in ministry too is like, you know, what that person said to my dad in the four-year after church wasn't untrue.

Like he's right that things don't have to be true to harm your reputation.

Um and that's the kind of evil truth.

It is, it really is, but I think that's what kind of makes you pause sometimes because was that wrong?

Yeah, that was so wrong.

That was so far from what Jesus expects from his people.

Yeah.

But it wasn't untrue.

And he knew that, and he knew he was making a solid threat that that you know he wanted to do damage with.

Wow.

And I think that's what um makes it scary, even if it is a small group of people.

Um if you're being targeted in a way that um can actually be harmful and can hurt your family and can, you know, affect your livelihood.

Yeah.

Um, it can be very scary.

So yeah.

That's a whole other rabbit that can be chased, as far as especially from a pastor standpoint, like just so much rides on the response to that.

Yeah.

Like they're whether or not they're gonna have an income rides on that.

Right.

You know, what people's perception of my reaction to this terrible thing that was said to me very publicly.

Yeah.

Um, it can be.

But they do talk about the reaction in the book.

There you go.

It's so good.

Like I I I did say to people, like, I do think the personal stories that are in your book are so riveting.

Like, you find yourself like, oh my gosh, you can feel the emotion.

You know, like, and then you're like, wait, what?

That actually happened.

Um, but I love that you combine that with practical things to do and think about for churches to consider.

And that segues to kind of one of the last things I want to talk about as we wind down.

Um, I think of the entire book, the thing that surprised me most was the impact on a very simple thing that's so cliche, and that's prayer.

And I saw one of your little tips for churches to do is to pray for your PKs by name.

I feel a little emotional just saying that, but like for people to name each of my children by name before the Father and know that they're doing it on a consistent basis may be the most encouraging thing I can think of.

Uh so I appreciate that you put that in your book.

How would you answer this question?

What happens when people in church do this?

Um, a lot happens, and I think a lot that people don't even realize.

I think number one, it becomes more personal.

It's like I'm praying.

So many people will be like, pray for your pastors' families.

And it's like, okay, yeah, pray for your pastors' families, but what what does that include about me specifically?

Seasons I'm going through, things that I'm experiencing, you know.

Um, so I think that praying for them by name makes it more personal.

It means that they're praying for me, not just an extension of like my dad's ministry, but it's like I see you for you.

Um, I think it makes it more intentional and it's a good reminder that PKs do carry a lot of things that people don't see on the surface, and it keeps that at the forefront of their minds, just as like a good reminder.

Yeah.

Um I think it can also change the way that the church treats them.

Um, if I'm being honest, it's much harder to reduce a PK down to expectations or gossip or scrutiny or stereotypes when you're regularly bringing that specific person before God.

Yeah.

Um and it just makes it more specific, too.

I love that.

So it can go a long way.

And I know like this is one of the main reasons why when I was pregnant with my oldest son.

Um I let's see, I think I announced my pregnancy when I was five weeks pregnant.

Oh yeah.

Because I found out about him.

I found out that my pregnancy was at risk.

I found out his gender at I think six weeks or seven weeks or something like that.

And I named him and I started praying for him by name.

And I asked everyone to do that with me.

Like I told the world his name is Jameson, he this is so early.

People don't normally talk about pregnancy this early because there's so many risks.

But on top of those normal risks that exist, I'm always I'm already facing all these extra risks.

And um I wanted to pray for him by name, and it's for a lot of those reasons.

Like I wanted to be specific, I wanted to be personal, I wanted to keep him at the forefront of people's memory to remind them to pray for him.

And so that's what I did.

And um, it's very similar here.

I just think that for all of those reasons, being specific in our prayers and intentional in our prayers for PKs can go a long way.

And it's something that I'm doing as well for PKs in my church.

I love it.

I think you telling reminding me about Jameson's story.

I mean, miracles happened.

And did you find a lot of encouragement from like people telling you, Oh, I'm praying for him, been praying for him, and just over and over.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was so it brought me so much peace.

I love it.

Yeah.

That's so awesome.

Well, before we close down, how can people get your book?

Uh great question.

There's a couple ways.

Um, I can be calling Hatch directly for a signed copy.

Awesome.

Um I will ship them to you if you're interested.

Um they can pick some up from you.

You have some available that are on signed at Hickory Grove.

They're available on Amazon.

Uh they're Amazon Prime, so you can get a paperback or you can get a Kindle edition.

Okay.

Those will not be signed, but they're available.

There you go.

And then you can also order through my publisher's website.

Um, they also do a bulk order on the website if you're using it for any kind of conference or teaching opportunity.

Um, I think 10 or more you can do like a bundle and get like a bulk discount.

I like that.

That's awesome.

So there's lots of ways uh to get one, but I do have plenty on hand.

If we're local here in northern Kentucky, um I would love to get you one that is signed and ready to go.

I didn't realize how many people cared about signed books.

People love a good signed book.

I know.

I love a good signed book.

I have no idea.

So if I know that I'm going to actually meet someone in the area, I want to take my book and go get them to sign it, actually.

Yeah.

I had no idea.

But I I looked up all the things.

I looked up what kind of pen I should use.

So it's done by the standard of authorship in the world.

I love it.

I love it.

So that's yeah, lots of avenues.

But seriously, I'm also open to being contacted directly.

Um can find me on pretty much any social media and I can't DM them.

That sounds great.

And if you go to hickorygrove.net, you can find the contact us page easily.

If you would like that, we're keeping a supply of them here as well.

So that's awesome.

Well, what I was going to see if you felt would be good to do.

I hope it's not like giving up the book, but I think one of the coolest parts of the book, and me and your mom have talked about this, is the prayer you wrote at the very end.

A prayer for PKs.

I think it's powerful.

And I couldn't think of a better way to close this podcast except for you reading it.

Reading that prayer.

Would you be willing to read that prayer for me?

I am willing, and I'll try my best.

I've never read it out loud before.

Are you serious?

This is groundbreaking.

Oh my gosh.

Never read it out loud.

Keep the emotions intact.

Yeah, it's very hard to write, very emotional to write, and every time, um, I'm not a very emotional person naturally.

Um crying is not normally like a first go-to response for me, but every time I was writing a piece of it, the tears were flowing.

So yeah, I'd be happy to.

Um, Heavenly Father, thank you for the privilege of coming before you, not just as a pastor's daughter, but as someone who understands the unique road that PKs walk.

Today I lift up every PK, every son and daughter growing up in the heart of ministry, seen and unseen, celebrated and misunderstood.

Lord, you know each one of them by name, you see their hearts, their questions, their fears, and their dreams, and I pray that your hand would be over their lives in powerful and personal ways.

God, I ask first that they would find their identity in Christ alone.

Let them know that they are they are oh sorry, let them know who they are is not based on their last name, their parents' title, or the expectations placed on them by others.

Help them see that their worth is not in being perfect or performing for others, but in being your chosen and beloved child.

Remind them daily that they are fearfully and wonderfully made and that you have a plan and purpose designed just for them apart from anyone else's agenda.

Father, I pray over the many pressures that come with being a PK, some carry the weight of unrealistic expectations, some battle loneliness, comparison, or the need to appear strong when they're struggling inside.

Surround them with grace and with people who offer understanding instead of judgment.

Let them breathe freely in your presence, knowing that they do not have to earn your love.

I ask, Lord, for their personal prayer lives and that they would grow deep roots.

In a world of distractions and demands, give them the quiet moments where they can hear your voice clearly.

Let prayer become their anchor, not a requirement, but a relationship.

May they turn to you not out of duty, but out of desire to walk closely with you, finding peace, purpose, and power in your presence.

When times get difficult, and they will, give them the strength to lean on you instead of running away.

Let them know that you are their refuge and their strength and ever-present help in times of trouble.

Remind them that you are near to the brokenhearted and that their struggles are safe in your hands.

Lord, send the right people into their lives, those who are the difference makers.

Place mentors, friends, teachers, youth leaders, and even strangers in their path who see them, who encourage them, and who reflect your love in tangible ways.

Let those connections help repair what the world or the church may have unintentionally wounded.

Let use those people to show them what it means to belong, to be known, and to be loved by the body of Christ.

I also pray, Lord, that the church itself would grow an awareness of the needs of pastors' kids, help congregations to see them not through the lens of assumption, but with compassion and intentionality.

And Father, I specifically ask that you would open the hearts of church members to receive this information and to use it to transform the church experience for PKs everywhere.

Let these truths sink deep into their spirits, producing real change in attitudes, conversations, and actions.

Give church members a willingness to listen without defensiveness, to respond with empathy, and to actively create environments where PKs can thrive and feel safe.

Father, I lift up families of pastors, strengthen the bonds within their homes so that PKs find refuge and joy under their own roofs, guard their hearts from bitterness that can arise from church conflicts or the heavy demands of ministry, give parents wisdom to shepherd their own children well even while caring for the flock.

Let laughter, peace, and love fill their homes.

I pray, Lord, for the mental and emotional health of every PK, lift the burdens of anxiety, depression, and pressure that comes sometimes can weigh so heavily on their shoulders.

Replace discouragement with hope, insecurity, and confidence in you and isolation with joy and community.

May they know that you are the God who heals the deepest wounds and renews the most tired hearts.

Lord, I also pray for their faith to be their own.

Help them to see you are someone help them to see you are not as someone who is distant or only connected to their parents' ministry, but as their personal savior and friend.

Let them experience moments with you that are undeniable.

Give them a hunger for your word that satisfies the longing of their souls.

When they face seasons of doubt, as many will, remind them that you are not threatened by their questions.

Give them safe places to wrestle with their faith and people who will walk alongside them without condemnation.

Reveal yourself in ways that speak directly to their hearts, confirming your presence and your truth in unmistakable ways.

Father, I ask for protection over their reputations, help help keep them from being identified defined by mistakes, whether great or small.

Surround them with people who will speak truth over them instead of lies, and when they do stumble, help the church respond with restoration rather than shame.

Lord, let forgiveness for flow freely in their hearts towards those who have hurt them, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Protect them from carrying bitterness into adulthood.

Give them the courage to release offenses into your hands and the freedom that comes from walking in grace.

I pray for provision in every area of their lives, meet their financial needs, educational needs, emotional needs, and spiritual needs.

Show them that you are a faithful provider who cares about every detail.

Father, I pray for their future, lead them in paths of righteousness for your name's sake and give them clarity when they are making decisions about education, relationships, and careers.

Protect them from distractions and relationships that will pull them away from your best.

Bless their friendships, their marriages, and their children.

May they be lights in every space you place them in, not because they carry a certain title or are expected to lead, but because their hearts are fully surrendered to you.

Use their unique perspectives and experiences to minister to others who may never step foot in a church building.

Teach them the power of interceding for others, even as we intercede for them now.

Let them see miracles in response to prayer so their faith will be strengthened.

May prayer not be the last resort for them but the first response.

When they feel unseen, whisper to their hearts that you see them.

When they feel unheard, remind them that you listen to every word, and when they feel unloved, overwhelm them with the truth that your love for them is constant and unchanging.

And Lord, for the ones who have walked away from you or from church, I pray for restoration.

Draw them back by your spirit, heal the wounds that cause them to leave.

Remind them that nothing can separate them from your love.

Thank you for loving PKs.

Thank you for shaping them for your purpose they cannot yet imagine.

Cover them with your presence, keep them close to your heart, call them into deeper intimacy with you, and use them for your glory in ways that will impact generations to come.

In Jesus' name I pray.

Amen.

Such a good prayer.

So good.

I made it through.

Ah, you did.

I was like, okay, you can do this.

It is, it's it's emotional too.

Just all the things.

There's a prayer, there's a there's a phrase or a sentence that is a cry out to God for almost everything that it's talked about in your book that is maybe the pitfall or the source of a pain, and I love that.

Yeah, it is such a great prayer.

It's wrong, but it's specific, and that's what I'm trying to get.

Like, I I've I've been really getting into reading prayers a little bit more.

I I used to not do that.

I'm like, uh what about why would I read someone else's prayer?

Yeah.

Uh but even in our weekly staff prayer meetings that we do here, we've been popping up a prayer that someone else had written, and it's there's something powerful about reading what someone else has cried out to God for.

Yeah.

And it can you can find language for what you're feeling that you never knew.

And I think that's what that does.

And I think I resonate with it because still praying some of those very things for my adult kids, even today.

Even though they're not right here in the thick of my ministry and here at Hickory Grove, you know, they're still PKs.

Uh, and I know that that can have a unique impact on them.

So thanks for giving me language to the prayers I longed to pray for that I didn't know how long to pray for.

So it took me a long time to be able to put language to it as well.

So he gave it to you though, and he's gonna keep using it.

I can't thank you enough for taking time.

Are you sick of talking about your book now that now that you've been with me?

We've done this twice within a week.

I could honestly talk about it forever, but thank you for making so much time and creating so much space to have this conversation.

It means a lot to me, and I'm really thankful that you find so much value in the message itself and kind of the mission here behind it.

It is obvious to me this book was needed, and I appreciate you being obedient to guys leading you to do it.

So if you're listening, you've made it this far, if you want your book, just contact us.

Go to hikergov.net.

You can find Britney Walker on uh social media platforms, and uh, if you are listening to this, and uh I hope that maybe one little next step you can do is if you go to church, the one thing you can do right now is pray by name for those kids of your pastor.

Start doing it now, and then let the Lord lead you into other spaces.

Maybe you're about to be a difference maker that your church and that's especially your pastor needs, and those kids need.

So thank you so much, Brittany.

I appreciate you.

Of course, thanks for having me.

Thanks for tuning in, guys.

We'll see you next time.