Rethinking Hell: The Enemy Was Never Hell — It Was Death

Welcome to the Kingdom Family Podcast, where

we rediscover our identity as sons and daughters

of Yahweh and learn to live the life of the Kingdom.

Let's jump in to today's episode. All right,

guys. Welcome back. Week three of rethinking

hell this week. We're going to talk about Sheol

and Hades. If you go back and listen to week

one, if you've missed it, week one, we began

to understand that the English word hell that

we have actually comes from four different Greek

and Hebrew words. Those words were Sheol, Hades,

Gehenna. to Taurus. Last episode we kind of zoomed

in more on Gehenna and discovered that this was

not like mythology type thing. This was actually

more geography. This Gehenna was a very real

valley. It had very real history. It was tied

to very real warnings. So tonight, or this episode,

we're going to begin to define and examine Sheol

and Hades. So let's start with Sheol here. Sheol

is a Hebrew word. It's used throughout the Old

Testament, and it simply refers to the realm

of the dead. It's not referring to a place of

torment. It's not referring to some place of

torture. No, it is simply death. We can look

at Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 10, and it says

Ecclesiastes 9:10

this, whatever you do, do well, for when you

go to the grave, and that word grave there is

the word shio. There will be no work or planning

or knowledge or wisdom. So here we have Ecclesiastes

Ecclesiastes 9:10

chapter 9 verse 10. It's simply talking about

death. It's not talking about any form of punishment

or eternal torture. It is simply talking about

death We can look at another scripture We can

look at Psalm chapter 6 verse 5 and it says in

Psalms 6:5

the darkness of death Who remembers your name

and worship? How could I bring your pray bring

you praise if I'm buried in a tomb? That phrase

there in death. There's no remembrance. It's

again. It's the word shio So so understand and

see the picture here that when The Hebrew writers

are writing about shio. They're not writing about

some kind of place of torture or eternal torture

or place of Punishment. No, it's simply it is

simply death That's all it is. It's death. It's

not eternal torment. It's it is just death imagery

That's that's that's all it is And it's important

for us to understand that both the righteous

and the wicked were described as going to this

place called shio And that's important to note

because it dismantles this this heaven and hell

dualism in early Hebrew thought The Old Testament

feared death, not eternal torture. And that's

something we really need to stop and consider,

stop and think about. You know, one of my favorite

sayings, don't check your brain at the door.

Really stop and ask yourself, have a conversation

with the Holy Spirit, the Great Teacher. What

does this mean? If Sheo is not a place of eternal

torture and is simply referring to the realm

of the dead, then maybe we have the wrong viewpoint

of this place called hell. Just something for

us to wrestle. If you look at the word Hades

in the New Testament, Hades is the Greek word

used in the New Testament to describe the realm

of the dead. It's simply a parallel, if you will,

to the word Sheol. That's all it is. And we can

look here in a couple different places. We can

start in Acts chapter two, verses 26 through

27. It says, No wonder my heart is glad and my

glory celebrates. My mouth is filled with praises

and I have hope that my body will live because

you will not leave my soul among the dead, nor

will you allow your sacred one to experience

decay. So in this verse here we have Peter who's

speaking here and what is he doing? He's quoting

Psalm chapter 16. Psalm 16 9 and 10 says, So

Psalms 16 · chapter mention

Peter in Acts chapter And Acts chapter 2 is quoting

Acts 2 · chapter mention

Psalm chapter 16 and he's applying it to Jesus.

Psalms 16 · chapter mention

Jesus certainly entered death, but he was not

left there. And again, another important distinction

for us to wrestle with and to consider when we

look at the modern day view of hell. That Jesus

certainly entered death. He experienced death.

I like to say it this way. that death swallowed

something that it could not take in. And it had

to spit it back out. Death attempted to swallow

the giver of life. It bit off, if you will, bit

off more than it could chew. Death was dealt

with in the person of Christ. Death was dealt

with by the person who was life. The person that

we find our life in and who gives us life. So

Jesus certainly entered death, but He was not

left there. The grave had to give Him back up.

The grave bit off more than it could chew in

this instance. That's how Christ, He came and

dealt with this enemy called death. Listen, I'm

reading a book right now by Tommy Miller. I've

actually got two that I'm... reading together

once through my Kindle app when I have my phone

with me and not the physical book. But on my

Kindle app, I'm reading the book Sacred Biology.

Eventually I'm going to have to get the physical

copy of this just because it is such a good book.

And then at home, I'm reading the book Deathless.

And it's interesting because the two kind of

are speaking to the same idea at least where

I'm at in each book, but if you really understand

that death is not part of the promise, death

was part of the curse. I forget what early Church

Father it was, but it says that whatever he assumed,

he healed. So ask yourself, what did Christ not

assume? Christ assumed every part of our humanity.

He assumed our death, he assumed our disease,

he assumed our sickness, he assumed our sin,

our distorted identity, he assumed every part

of that and whatever he assumed, he heals. So

in this instance, when we're talking about death,

certainly Jesus entered that realm of death,

but he did not stay there. No, he dealt with

that in me called death. Death is not our portion.

Death is not part of what we're supposed to be.

Listen, we quote these verses, at least in the

church where I grew up in, the same spirit that

raised Christ from the dead. But yet we still

have the belief and the notion, again, this is

something new to me. I'm just beginning to read

this book from Tommy Miller and it's very revelatory.

But if you really wrestle with this, The verse

that says we've been given the same spirit that

raised Christ from the dead Why would we then

think that it's normal to experience death? Okay

Chris, well, it's appointed for man once to die.

Okay, I would like to argue that you already

died in the person of Christ when he was crucified

on the cross. Paul would say that we were co

-crucified, we were co -buried with Christ, and

now we are co -resurrected and co -glorified

with him, seated with him in the heavenly places.

So I would like to say, when it says that it's

appointed for man once to die, then to face judgment,

that's already happened. You and I have already

experienced that death mystically with the person

of Christ. That's important for us to think about

and to really wrestle. And again, this is my

belief. You can believe what you want, but I'm

beginning to... I don't know how to say this

properly. I'm beginning to have this idea and

this thought that maybe I don't have to die.

Think about that. Maybe we do get to live forever.

Paul seemed to have this idea that he gets to

choose when he died. And if you look after the

fall of Adam, people are still living long lives

like 900 plus years of life. I like how Damon

Thompson put it that if you look at the fall

after the fall, if you go five minutes after

the fall, nothing looks different, but yet everything

has changed. If you go five minutes after the

crucifixion and even five minutes after the resurrection

of Christ, Nothing looks like it has changed,

but yet everything has indeed changed for that

moment and for all of us in life. Nothing looks

different in the five minutes after the fall

or the five minutes after the resurrection of

Christ, but yet everything has changed. Think

about this, wrestle with this notion, wrestle

with this idea that everything has now changed

and in this instant changed back for the good.

He has redeemed and restored us back to the original

design. You got to think about this. Scripture

would tell us that we were alienated in our own

minds. We've never been separated from Christ.

And you say, well, we all have to die, that's

a part of life. Really? Because you're going

to have to talk about Enoch. Enoch was and then

was not. You're going to have to talk about,

and I always get these backwards, it's either

Elijah or Elisha who just is caught up in a whirlwind.

If you look at John the Beloved who writes, who

gives us the Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd

John in the book of Revelation, if you look at

him, there's no... documentation, historical

documentation that he ever experienced death.

How do we know he actually died? Well, Chris,

it just has to, does it? I know this sounds completely

nuts and some of you probably have turned me

off, but then again, if you really think about

this and let it speak to your inner man, something

begins to say, yeah, that makes sense. It don't

make sense to my natural person, but there's

something inside of me that's like, you know

that there may be something to this. I don't

know how we got there talking about Sheo and

Hades, but I feel like that's what we needed

to talk about. But if you just look at, again

what I said, it's Peter's quoting in Acts chapter

Acts 2 · chapter mention

2, he's quoting Psalm 16. Jesus certainly entered

death, but he was not left there. He he assumed

death and then come out on the other side victorious

He come out of the grave. He did not stay there

and the same is true for you and I We experienced

his death Mystically, I can't explain that for

you. I can't make that make any more sense to

you. I'm just telling you that we experienced

his death with Him. We experienced His resurrection

with Him and now we are co -glorified, co -seated

with Him in the heavenly realm. Alright, so let's

move on. Let's look at Lazarus in Luke, excuse

me, Luke chapter 16. Let's make sure I was on

Luke 16 · chapter mention

the right spot. So again, here in Luke chapter

Luke 16 · chapter mention

16, you can go read the whole story for yourself.

But it's about the rich man who in the story

has no name. He still treats Lazarus who was

actually given a name in this parable, which

actually meant something. Remember, Jesus doesn't

just say things for the fun of it. He's actually

using the story for a purpose and using naming

this individual for a purpose. But he does not

give the rich man a name. But he does give the

poor man a name and that poor man's name was

Lazarus. And in this story in Luke chapter 16,

Luke 16 · chapter mention

the rich man still treated Lazarus as a servant.

And what's happened between the two? There is

a great gulf and the rich man is in flames. And

what is this? It's imagery. Remember that Jesus

taught, he frequently taught, using parables.

And I want you to remember that this imagery

parallels non -Jewish storytelling traditions.

This is not some sort of literal geography that

Jesus is trying to plant and paint a picture

of. Look at the flow of this. If you go back

to Luke chapter 15 leading up to Luke 16, you

Luke 15 · chapter mention

have the lost sheep, you have the prodigal son,

you have the story of the mustard seed, and then

he goes into Luke chapter 16. Remember this?

Luke 16 · chapter mention

The early scriptures did not have chapter and

verse divisions. It was just straight through.

We added the chapter and verses. But when they

were writing this, they were not penning chapter

15, chapter 16, verse 1. No, it was just being

written straight through. So Luke 15 leading

up to 16 you got a story of the lost sheep you

got the prodigal son Which is really more of

a story about the father And then you have the

mustard seed and then we go to Luke 16 it fits

the pattern of symbolic storytelling That's important

for us to remember this passage reveals moral

warning and not some sort of blueprint for the

afterlife again Learn to think about this. Pause

this episode. Really sit with it. Go back and

read it for yourself. Ask the Holy Spirit to

teach you. That's important for us to understand

that we have the freedom and the liberty to allow

Holy Spirit, to allow the Trinity to actually

teach us through Scripture. We we have the ability

to have a personal relationship because we are

one with the trinity to have a personal relationship

a personal dialogue with The word and the author

of a word think about that And then we look at

um, let's consider this let's consider revelation

Revelation 1:17

chapter 1 verse 17 and 18 And it says this, it

says, when I saw him, I fell down at his feet

as good as dead, but he laid his right hand on

me and I heard his reassuring voice saying, don't

yield to fear. I am beginning and I am the end,

the living one. I was dead, but now look, I am

alive forever and ever. And listen, pay attention

to this. I hold the keys that unlock death and

the unseen world. When it says death and the

unseen world that phrase there Unseen world on

the passion translation is the Greek word Hades

So understand like Jesus doesn't fear death Jesus

conquered death. We should not fear death death

has been conquered in our place Jesus represented,

he said, I'm the last Adam. He's the last Adam

and he came to deal with every enemy that rose

up against us because of this fall. And I believe

he actually dealt with them. I believe when he

said it is finished, he actually meant that.

That there was nothing else left for him to do.

Let's look at Just consider the concept that

He holds the keys to these. I've been taught

all my life that hell is a separation from God.

First of all, I may have mentioned this in a

previous episode. I don't even remember it at

this point. First of all if it's separated from

God and God can't be there then that would mean

that hell in itself has to be a God Because it

would have to be self -sustaining And that's

not the case Christ says I hold the keys to death

and I hold the keys to Hades the unseen realm

the realm of the dead If you hold the keys to

something typically If I think about this in

our world and I'm just thinking out loud here

with you on this conversation typically if you

hold the keys to something you own it or at least

have the authority to enter this place or to

utilize this equipment or this vehicle. That's

usually what having keys would be a symbol of.

I have the keys to my house because my wife and

I signed the mortgage deed. No one else can get

into my house without that key unless they enter

illegally. Think about that. Let's jump over

to, let's see, let's jump over to 1st Corinthians

chapter 15. I'm gonna read verses 24 and 26.

Says then the final stage of completion comes

when he will bring to an end every other rulership

authority and power and he will hand over his

kingdom to father God Until then he is destined

to reign as king until all hostility has been

subdued and placed under his feet and The last

enemy to be subdued and eliminated is death.

So think about this Death and not humanity is

the enemy that is to be destroyed It's not talking

about people It's not talking about the Democrats

or the Republican. It's not talking about the

Muslim or the Buddhist or the Islamist You know,

that's a word It's not talking about those people.

It's not talking about the homosexual the transsexual

the bisexual is not talking about these people

It says The last enemy to be subdued and eliminated

is death itself. So it's death, not humanity,

that is to be destroyed. Again, just important

for us to consider, important for us to think

about when we're talking about hell. It's a big

deal. What was the real fear here? Because the

Bible's greatest concern was never, at least

with my studying and my reading, was never eternal

torture. It was death. Never eternal torture.

I want you to think about something. If hell

was supposed to be such this big idea and this

big topic, Then I'll get to that a minute. Just

just hold on So just consider the gospel for

a minute because the gospel is not avoid hell

It's not And I spent part of my church life growing

up understand part of the gospel is you get to

repeat a prayer and You know now you don't have

to go to hell Now the gospel is Christ has defeated

death. This is the good news. The gospel is literally

translated into good news. The good news is Christ

has defeated death. Now the gospel is that Christ

finished the work. He completed His assignment

for us. And I would say not just for us but as

us. He became that distorted image called sin

to make us the righteousness of God. What did

Christ do? He ended the rule of sin. He ended

the rule of guilt. He ended the rule of shame.

So again, just think about something. If the

concept of hell was intended to be such a big

deal. Go read the book of Acts. The book of Acts

where we get the birth of the church and other

than Hades being referenced in Acts chapter 2

Acts 2 · chapter mention

when then this is when the verse I just read

when Peter is quoting Psalm 16 Go read the book

of Acts. There is zero mention of hell Acts emphasizes

things like Jesus's death his resurrection forgiveness

of sins repentance the kingdom of God the gift

of the Holy Spirit the Lordship of Christ and

I've heard I've heard growing up and You know,

who said it? I don't remember. I've heard many

people say it and listen, this is not to attack

people. I believe people majority of the time

have the right intentions, maybe just the wrong

information. I think a lot of times in the church,

especially in church culture, we just regurgitate

information because it sounded good. It sounded

right. And we don't go and study for ourselves.

So this is not to attack anybody. It's not if

you hold this belief is not to attack anybody.

You've said it Whatever. It's not meant to attack

people but it is meant to bring honesty and truth

back to the conversation so if you look at I

Was I was taught that Jesus spoke a lot about

hell but Jesus never speaks of people going to

an abstract place called hell using a single

technical term, if you will. No, he uses different

languages. Gehenna, which was, again, a real

valley used symbolically. He uses Hades, the

realm of the dead. He used outer darkness, the

furnace of fire, unquenchable fire, weeping and

gnashing of teeth. That's the kind of stuff that

he used. And one of the biggest interpretive

questions is whether these images are all describing

the same reality or whether Jesus is drawing

from different Old Testament metaphors to communicate

different aspects of judgment, covenant crisis,

exclusion, purification. And that's one reason

that many scholars encourage studying each image

in its own literary and historical context rather

than to assume they all refer to the same concept

of hell. So think about this seven. Seven of

the eleven Gehenna references occur in the Book

of Matthew. Which is the gospel most focused

on Jesus's mornings to Israel's religious leadership

and the coming judgment of Jerusalem Just something

for us to think about if you look at and I'm

pulling my image so I can actually read it good

If you look at what Jesus Focused on he didn't

focus on hell at all Jesus focused on the kingdom

Jesus mentioned hell for That's it, 14 times

in the Gospels. Now just remember, some of these

are the same story. Other major themes in His

teaching, you have the Kingdom of God and the

Kingdom of Heaven, 100 plus references. You have

Him talking about the Father, 150 plus references.

Dozens of references on life and eternal life.

Dozens of references on faith and belief. He

repeatedly talks about love. A major recurring

theme is forgiveness. Jesus' longest discourses

aren't about hell. Take into consideration the

Sermon on the Mount, the Kingdom parables. None

of that, again, some of His longest discourses

that we have, and they're not about hell. And

yet we've been taught in the West how big of

a deal hell should be when presenting the Gospel

message. And that's not how it should be, my

friend. So, again, simple week. I'm not trying

to make these long and drawn out. I want to make

these kind of shorter to make sure we hit each

point. We'll spend roughly, I think, about eight

weeks total doing this series. And then we're

going to go jump into some other stuff. But this

one was just about looking at Sheol and Hades.

They're not places of torture, but they're realms

of death. And the message of Jesus was never

fear driven survival. Think about that. His message

was never fear. In fact, scripture would tell

us, John would tell us that perfect love casts

out all fear. If someone is using hell as a fear

tactic, my friend, that's called manipulation

and that's demonic. Whether that individual knows

it or not. Not saying the person doing it is

demonic, but that is demonic. Probably well -intended

people that use it as manipulation. But manipulation

is witchcraft. Just think about that. So I hope

this episode helps you. I hope you now understand

we've talked about Gehenna now and tonight or

this episode We've talked about Sheol in Hades.

So I hope these are helping you maybe again I'm

not interested in you coming to the same conclusion

because I don't even know really what conclusion

I still have after studying and reading all this.

I just know that I'm Comfortable saying I no

longer believe in the hell that I was handed

and taught Now where I land completely on it,

I don't really know. Is it a big deal for me

at the moment? I'm gonna be 100 % honest. No

Because once this series concludes I told our

I told our group this past Saturday and then

I'll Will end this episode here, but I told my

our group this past Saturday that we do Typically

a biweekly service and then we do Wednesday night

Bible studies and I thought of myself. I feel

like the rethinking in times and the rethinking

hell series was more for me to feel the freedom

to go play. That Papa gave me the ability to

simply go play and to rethink these things number

one for myself and the number two to be able

to take what little information I have and to

begin to give it to you to allow you the freedom

to go and study for yourself. Now again, you

may go study this and be like, no, I'm still

sold on the idea of hell. That's completely fine.

You're still welcome here You're still welcome

to go on this journey It's not about you coming

into agreement with whatever It's not about us

landing at the same place. That's not what it's

about But it is to give us a more hopeful idea

a hopeful future if you will So my friend that's

it till next week Thank you for listening guys

leave a review help share this out help me out

with that Maybe someone else wants to maybe have

a friend who's interested in the concept or the

thought of hell share this with them Give me

some feedback guys. I'm not an expert by no means

I'm sure there are plenty of theologians out

there that you can read again. I think I referenced

it but Her gates will never be shut by Bradley

Drozak highly recommended I've got another book

on my shelf by Don Keith Lee that I want to read

it's called Hell's Illusion I've not read that

one yet, so I can't speak for that one But yeah,

that's that's where we're at so guys be blessed

Just be who God has created you to be and walk

in the life of the kingdom be blessed Thanks

for spending some time with me today on the Kingdom

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