Podcast | Forgiveness Is The Moment You Stop Counting (Episode 271)

Welcome to Heart of the Homily Podcast.

My name is Michelle Lopez, and I'm here with Father Vigova.

Hey Michelle.

Hello.

Welcome home.

Thank you.

Welcome back.

Feeling a little bit of jet lag?

Just a tad.

Yes, it's hitting me today.

Um, but worth the incredible pilgrimage that we had.

So many graces.

So many graces.

And I think we'll have weeks to unpack them.

Um, but it was such a joy.

A lot of people came back on fire, let me tell you.

On fire and with an open heart for more.

I love that.

I think that's really beautiful.

It was amazing.

Well, maybe one day we'll we'll sit and have a conversation about pilgrimages because there's so much to talk about that.

There is, and it could take our whole time, but we'll go ahead and hop into uh talking about the homily from yesterday, from Sunday's gospel, because there's a lot to it.

Um so I'll start off us off.

We're reading from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18, verses 21 to 35.

Matthew 18:21–35

Peter approached Jesus and asked him, Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive?

As many as seven times?

Jesus answered, I say to you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.

When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.

Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.

At that the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.

Moved with compassion, the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.

When the servant had left, he found one of the fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount.

He seized him, started to choke him, demanding, Pay back what you owe.

Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, Be patient with me and I will pay you back, but he refused.

Instead he had the fellow servant put in prison until he paid back the debt.

Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.

His master summoned him and said to him, You wicked servant, I forgave you the entire debt because you begged me to.

Should you not have pity on your fellow servant as I had pity on you?

Then in anger the master handed him over to the torturers until he could pay back the whole debt.

So will my heav so will my heavenly father do to you unless each of you forgives your brother from your heart.

Okay, so a longer gospel than normal, uh, father, but so intense.

And that ending is so strong.

I almost I was about to do the homily on just that last bit there.

It is is really super strong.

Like, do you want to get to heaven?

Um but yeah, it was a homily or it was a gospel that every single person alive can relate to because all of us in some way um have been wounded, have been hurt, have felt disappointed.

Um, and every single one of us needs to forgive someone.

Right.

And so I really and a lot of people after mass, oh my gosh, Father, you were speaking to me.

I was like, well, yeah, I was speaking to myself too, you know.

Um, but just how it resonated with so many people.

Absolutely.

And I thought it was interesting how you started your homily, though, because you pulled it from the first reading, but it connected so well.

You talked about um about the first reading talked about hugging your anger.

Um so I would love to hear like what inspired to tie those two together because I I thought that image set us up to really understand the gospel in a different way.

Yeah, and one of the questions I was asking myself when I was starting to prepare is why would someone hold on to anger and resentment?

Why would you want to hold on to it?

And that's where I was when we're you're re reading the first reading, it's in that first sentence.

Um, wrath and anger are let me see if I can look it up.

I don't have it here.

Oh, wrath and anger are hateful things, yet the sinner hugs them tight.

I read that, I was like, that is so true.

And why do we do that?

Why would anyone want to hold on to anger?

Why?

Because if resentment hurts, why do we keep it?

Well, I think that anger can give us something.

Um, I think it can make us feel strong when we felt powerless.

Um, it can give us a sense of uh moral superiority, or it can become evidence in the case that we continue over and over to present against that person who wronged us.

And so you play it out in your mind all the time, right?

So it's it's a way of even survival mode.

And sometimes anger even gives us this strange sense of control.

We've talked about that millions of times.

As long as I remain angry, I feel that I have not allowed the other person to get away with what happened to us or happened to me, right?

And that's where the gospel challenges us.

Yeah.

Because forgiveness does not mean pretending the wound was insignificant, some things are very significant.

I mean, I sit in the confessional, I have people here in my office all the time.

Um, some betrayals change lives.

Some things that people do to one another is objectively sinful and deeply destructive.

I mean, there's some really toxic, toxic relationships, and people can be really ugly to each other.

So you get it where you you say, I've been hurt.

And but Christianity never asks us to call evil good.

The cross itself proves that.

But you know, I I think if sin were insignificant, Calvary would make no sense.

Because here um here's where it gets really sticky about are you practicing the faith, do you believe in in the words of Christ?

Um, what he commands us to do, do we trust in his words?

Um because there's a difference between remembering what happened and continuing to live inside what happened.

And when you talk to people and you um maybe they're they're confessing, you can right away see that there is a difference between seeking justice and feeding the resentment.

Right.

And I think that's a um a great opportunity for examination, like to look at like in our own anger or resentment that we hold, like where do we go with it?

And I really love what you're talking about because it um really I think helps us look at do we how do we hold things, right?

We're saying we hold people we love and then we also hold on to someone who's hurting us, like that doesn't make sense.

Um, but we do that out of trying to protect ourselves um and out of um fear as well as control.

But Jesus gives us another way, yeah, you know, another way of what to do.

And your your clarification within your homily about forgiveness, like what is forgiveness, what's not forgiveness, I thought was very helpful too.

Cause I feel like that sometimes people get confused about where they're like, oh, well, if I if I forgive them, if I really forgive them and let it go, then you know, I'm letting them walk all over me.

Or there's so many misunderstandings, I think, about that in and there and there is um a difference.

There is there is such a thing as righteous anger too.

We have to kind of um understand that because uh Jesus himself became angry at injustice and hypocrisy.

But anger is supposed to tell us that something is wrong, it's not supposed to become the place where we live and it's it's harboring there in your mind and your heart.

Um and that's where I think that Catholics get themselves into trouble because um we can hear Jesus say forgive, and we assume that means everything has to go back to the way it was.

Well, no, it does not.

Yeah.

You even mentioned the harboring in your heart, and I think that is something where people think it's normal.

Yeah.

Like even learning that that's not okay, that that's kind of like where resentment starts to grow.

Yeah.

Um, is very helpful.

Because I think that's I know for myself, at least, until I really learned about forgiveness, what that really meant.

I just thought it was normal to kind of like let like replay things in my mind, like harbor anger, and yeah, because like, you know, I was hurt, and what else am I supposed to do?

Like, we don't a lot of I think Christians don't know that.

There's another way.

It's the way of the cross, which what it really means and what it doesn't mean, you know, as far as forgiveness.

And there's another aspect of this too, is that um forgiveness and reconciliation are related, but they're not identical.

And a lot of people confuse that because forgiveness can begin with one person.

Reconciliation requires two people.

Right.

And if somebody has seriously betrayed you, abused your who trust you abused your trust or lied to you repeatedly, remains dangerous or destructive to you, forgiveness does not require you to pretend none of that happened.

And you I mean you can forgive somebody and still have boundaries.

You can forgive somebody and say, you cannot continue treating me this way.

But I I think that the difference is that you you set yourself free, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about freedom, but in the sense of saying, I forgive you from my heart.

But it doesn't mean that I have to continue being in in a in a situation where you're you're you continue to mistreat me, or it's it's toxic and it's not healthy.

Um because you can forgive somebody and decide that trust has to be rebuilt.

Right.

And in certain situations, trust may never be fully rebuilt, right?

Um and that's not necessarily a failure of of charity.

No, that's sometimes what uh is necessary for the other person to have a conversion, to like actually repent of their sin of the hurt that they, you know, uh that they did to someone.

But it takes that courage to be able to start kind of cutting the tie of anger and resentment and um revenge, like on your end.

Exactly.

And I and I think that that's where um where Christian charity takes a toll.

I mean, not takes a toll, but it it it can be applied here in the sense that well, even like Aquinas understood charity as willing the good of another person, so that means forgiveness is not fundamentally about having warm feelings towards somebody, right?

But being able to act it's an act of the will.

I can say, Lord, I do not approve of what this person did.

Um, I do not deny what happened.

I may not even feel affectionate towards that person, but I refuse to desire destruction.

I don't want to be in a place where I am also um just engaging in evil thoughts or hateful thoughts or uh right.

So placing it all in his hands in the sense that I place judgment in your hands, I ask that uh your grace ultimately triumph in this situation in my life and and in this this certain uh conflict.

But and I think that that's where forgiveness begins when we're honest and open, uh open heart with the Lord and ask for the invitation to for the Lord to intercede in this these very, very complex and difficult dynamics.

What comes to mind is what we talked about, I think, in the last podcast or just recently about honesty.

Like forgiveness requires us, like deep forgiveness, and what we're talking about requires a raw honesty with the Lord of what hurt us, how it hurt us, how we feel, what the issue is, where the obstacles are to for like to be raw honest about all of what's going on in within our hearts, so that God may give that grace to forgive, and then also to see clearly, you know, what is the next best step for healthy boundaries and for like what's um if repair is possible or if it's gonna take time or another direction.

I think there's so much to this that's really um it's really hard.

And I love how you're um in your homely though, you're really focused on just help helping us recognize that resentment, the rip the replaying of wounds, like allowing our wounds to be held close to us and holding on to them hurts us more than helps us.

And I think that is um so helpful in the Christian walk because I think that's where people get tripped up sometimes, is we think it's helping us when we're trying to um hold it close, replaying, you know, replaying things I was betrayed, or like you owe me kind of mentality.

Um, instead of really it becomes dangerous instead of allowing the Lord to start speaking and healing and giving us a freedom.

And that leads me into you know what I was gonna mention about Peter.

He Peter like asked the question for us, you know.

Yeah, he asks it for us as far as like, so how like what do we do with this when we're hurt?

Is it seven times?

Is that good enough?

You know, and I think that he was trying to be like I'm very generous, you know.

Like, let me seven, right?

Because two times, right?

Seven, you know, I can do it seven times, you know.

Yeah, and I I love that.

I love again Peter's raw honesty about you know what he thinks that would be a good amount for forgiveness.

But Jesus really um yeah, his answer blows open our understanding of what forgiveness and freedom really wants because Jesus wants freedom, not um like a checklist or a counting of sin.

Right.

And and that's why I think he says 77.

He's like almost saying to him, Well, stop counting.

Imagine having to count 77 times.

No, he's saying just don't count.

Um because what he's saying here is that mercy cannot become bookkeeping.

And a lot of people do that.

I think that um no fault or no judgment, but uh they can see their faith life, their spirituality in okay, tell me what I need to do so that I don't cross it so that I can fulfill the obligation.

So it's not from the heart, it's just like okay, I I don't want I just want to fulfill the obligation.

Um but I I think that the challenge here is um and also too, I I we live in a culture that likes to keep score, right?

And one stupid comment from 10 years ago can follow someone forever, like a misunderstanding or something that could you look at it today and say, That's it?

That that's why you're still angry and holding that resentment because of that.

And I and I have heard cases like this where in their mind they have played it out to be this huge event, and I'm listening to it, I'm saying, Wait, that's what you're you've been struggling for with all of these years?

Um but again, there it's it's super complex.

There's probably more to that story, but um I think that even social media can be uh a place where a lot of misconceptions, a lot of hurts, a lot of wounds.

Why?

Because you're not getting the full picture, right?

And you can DM somebody something, or you get a chat on this or a text on that, and you're not getting the full picture, and and and people walk away hurt.

Um yeah.

But Christianity makes an it makes an astonishing claim because a human being is never uh reduced to the worst thing that it's done.

And that's that's what I was trying to focus on.

It's like you are not that mistake, you're not that that that big problem in your life.

And I, you know, if if that if if that were not true, none of us would have any hope.

Right.

Right.

I mean, think about it.

Think about Peter.

We're talking about Peter, he's trying to try to warm up to Jesus and and but he denied Christ three times.

Imagine if the gospel ended with Good Friday, Peter would forever be remembered as the coward who denied Jesus.

But what happens?

Easter comes.

And in John's Gospel, Jesus meets Peter on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and and he does not deny Peter's failure, he heals him right then and there.

Three denials, and three times Jesus asks him, Do you love me?

And then after that, he gives them the mission to go out and feed the sheep.

And that's Christianity.

Yeah, that that's the whole core of it right there.

Grace does not pretend the past never happened, grace refuses to allow the past to have the final word.

And that that example of Peter is is is right there.

It's like exactly what Jesus is talking about.

That was huge.

I mean, if I was Jesus, I'd be like, wow, man, I'm so disappointed in you.

Yeah.

Three times, Peter, really, like uh you were with me for so many, for so long.

Yeah, that's so real.

That's so real.

And it makes me also think how all the apostles had to forgive him, also.

Yeah.

Like that Jesus forgave him and freed him.

But I mean, he's with his his crew.

Like they uh exactly they all saw all that too.

And I mean, they were again giving the mercy that they really received themselves, and it it it shows that.

It shows that.

Um, so Father, love to hear um, you share a little bit more about the unmerciful servant and just the story of the parable there.

Um, I know that's kind of like at the heart of Jesus' words and the gospel, and the servant receives an unimaginable gift because his debt is huge and he's forgiven, and then he goes on and does not forgive the little debt that someone owes him.

Yeah.

Like, could you share a little bit of um what's some of the invitation there for us?

Well, imagine, you know, imagine the gift that God gives us to forgive our faults.

Think of think right now of the the biggest, stupidest mistake, the biggest sin that you've created, have done in your life, or just mistakes that you have made, and the great gift that that Jesus gives us in reconciliation to say, it's gone.

Don't think about that anymore.

You're brand new.

Turn the page, let's start a new chapter.

And that's such a gift, right?

And and that's what Christ was trying to give us in that parable, where he's saying, Here you have this man who has received such a huge gift, right?

Because the gospel tells us there's no way he could have paid that back.

His family was there, they were all going to be sold, they were all going to be sent, you know, where or tortured, who, God knows what.

And he walks out of there a free man, debt-free.

What a huge gift.

First thing he does, grabs this guy who doesn't owe him, he owes him much less, grabs him by the throat.

Hey, pay me what you owe me right now.

Unchanged.

Like super oblivious to the gift that he had received.

And I think that a lot of times we're dead set in our ways and how we live and how we live.

And we could re could have a gift, right?

We could receive a gift so huge and not even acknowledge or not even allow that gift to transform our hearts.

But something else that I was thinking about when I was writing this was that why what if I cannot forgive?

Because that's what this guy, this guy's like, walks out, it doesn't forgive in the sense that he has no compassion or pity for the guy who owes him a much less uh debt.

And and I bet you there's somebody probably listened like, Father, all that that you and Michelle are talking about is beautiful.

But you don't know what happened to me, right?

Or that guy could have said, You don't know the debt that I owe or the money that I need, and this guy owes me money.

And and that may be true, but there are wounds that that I have never carried, there's betrayals that I've never experienced.

But I'll never tell someone who suffered terribly, well, just get over it.

That's your cross.

No, that's not what that's not what Christ is saying either.

That's not what the church is saying to anybody, that's not Christianity.

But I would say do not confuse difficulty forgiving with refusal to forgive.

And that's I think that that's an important uh connection there.

Because they're two very different things.

You may want to forgive and still feel enormously angry.

You may choose forgiveness and and wake up tomorrow and feel that the wound is right there fresh.

Um you may give something to God today and discover next month that you have you have that you have picked it up again and that you're still wrestling with anger.

But I would say go back to the cross, go back to reconciliation, go back to prayer, go back to a di a deep desire to trust him.

Because forgiveness is sometimes not one dramatic moment, it's it's a discipline, it's something that it's a repeated surrender, and it's something that we need to pray about all the time.

Jesus, I give you this person.

Jesus, help me to heal, Jesus help me to forgive, teach me to forgive.

I don't even know if I want to forgive, but be because of what you can do, Lord, in my life and how allow me the grace to feel.

the movement in my heart to desire this forgiveness.

Right.

Um because it's not easy.

It's not easy.

And what you're saying too, Father, is that forgiveness is also a choice.

It's not a feeling.

It's right.

It's not like um it's not a magic trick where now I forgive you and I'm going to feel great when I see you.

Exactly.

Forgiveness is it's a willing from the heart, like a a choice of love to invite Christ to free you from the burden because he's picked up the burden already.

Yeah.

And I think that's a invitation for all of us to kind of look at like do we carry around anger and resentment and we're not willing to give it up.

We're not willing to let go of the and stop hugging it.

But allow the Lord to to receive it.

And there's also another side to this too is and I hope that people can connect the dots in the sense that um whom do I need to ask to forgive me?

Right?

Because a lot of times we are it's it's what they did to me.

It's what's happening to me and it's me, me, me, my life.

I'm the center of the universe.

But a big question this weekend too should have sparked in your heart in your mind is whom do I need to ask to forgive me?

Because that question changes everything.

Christianity does not divide humanity into victims and villains.

And that's why the truth is more uncomfortable.

Most of us have wounds and most of us have wounded I don't know and maybe we remember very clearly what people have done to us but we can remarkably forget about what we've done to other people.

And maybe somebody's carrying a wound that has your name attached to it.

Well Father the reality is is it's everyone has that no one is free of that.

Exactly I think the greatest of saints there's people that probably misunderstood them or had a bad day.

You know like yeah we're all we're all guilty um and if we if we don't live in that reality then we're not living in like reality and knowing that you know we have things that God is still working on in our in our hearts that we can be a light to others um but there there still is um ways that we hurt others even if we don't know even if we don't know.

And a lot of times let me tell you there there are people that have been wounded and the other person doesn't even know that they wounded them.

Right.

Through maybe like a misunderstanding and it could be cleared up so easily but that person carries around this wound.

Yeah.

It's so true.

So I like some of the lines from your homie I thought were really good to ponder.

Um you said it means that what you did to me will not be allowed to decide what kind of person I become and I refuse to let what you did to me determine whether I become bitter or merciful.

Those lines Father I thought were really powerful to invite us to really consider are we allowing some of these ways that we've been hurt to be our identity or to um you know have to grow a place in our heart where it doesn't belong.

You know, that if we don't allow the Lord to bring light and healing into it then it starts growing in ways that are really ugly that can make us become bitter and not merciful merciful and not um the person that God's created us to be.

And like forgiveness is at the heart of that.

And I think that that's where you really can tell if you're growing in holiness if you're growing in discipleship.

Because if you get to a point where you say I don't care I I don't want to forgive I want to stay with this and what was done was done and I am going to dig in my heels and I'm not going to forgive if that's you well then you know that there's a lot of work you need to do because something that I said in the at the end of one of the masses I say and it it comes from the end of the gospel is like if if our goal in life and if we truly desire heaven then the way we act behave and respond is completely different because then you're able to really look at a situation you're able to look at that hurt that wound and say well I choose mercy I choose to be a disciple I choose to love you Jesus I choose to follow your command you're the one in control you are my Lord and I don't want to be in control of the situation anymore.

I want to be free enough to say you're asking me this because I love you and I want to get to heaven I will do it.

It hurts it's painful to let go of it but because you are asking me I will do it.

And again it doesn't have to be where you're up in in this person's face and you're having to deal with them again and oh nothing happened.

We're back to normal no it doesn't have to be that there could be boundaries but there's a freedom that comes in your heart that says I no longer choose to harbor hate.

I no longer choose I choose no to no longer rehearse this in my mind anymore.

This is not going to hurt me anymore.

Why?

Because I've given it to you Jesus you be the judge you take care of the situation you be the one to uh to to go through it and I am just going to step back and say I forgive I don't forget but I forgive and I don't want to have this in my life anymore.

I don't want to feel the pain anymore.

I just want to I just want to trust you Lord so beautiful so so beautiful and what a great invitation for our listeners this week to kind of do some self-examination on on that point.

And it just makes me think as we start wrapping up here I remember just just to give hope and encouragement to anyone that's listening I know um in my own life my own journey my relationship with my dad this is actually like a scripture and a a a topic that gave me so much freedom was really beginning to start on a journey of like of healing but starting to offer him like forgiveness for a rough relationship growing up and I realized that as I did that there came a time where the Lord um started freeing me to love him as he was um but then I started realizing what I needed to ask forgiveness for and it kind of it's wrapped up in in this so well it was kind of like as that freedom and healing came in my own heart then it flipped to this other way and it was just um only God could do that because I was I was seeing and starting to repent from like my part of things.

But the freedom and healing that happened it didn't depend on whether my dad was able to even be a part of that.

But it was all of what God did within me through being honest and real about how I felt and knowing that there was repair needed.

And just I remember my prayer at the beginning was like because of you Jesus and in your name I choose to forgive my dad.

I didn't even want to I was like but because of you and in your name like I'm like you know I started very far from it and then with time you know God was bringing that prayer more deeply in my heart.

But at first it wasn't even it was because I knew I needed to do it.

Well and also too that that that desire to really live uh Christianity authentically.

Yeah yeah and to know that Jesus isn't saying like do this and it'll all feel nice or um do it on the surface you know it's doing it because Jesus you have the power to if this is real you do it.

Yeah.

You know putting the pressure on the Lord and also asking him and his power to do what he promised to do and it not being we can't do it on on our own.

And also think I I think because Jesus Christ did not die and rise from the dead so that someone else's sin could become the permanent author of your life this person, this constant that's there all the time.

Why?

Because there should only be one Lord of your life and the person who wounded you is not him Jesus is so perhaps the prayer today is very simple it's Lord I cannot change what happened I cannot rewrite the past I cannot force another person to repent but I can decide who gets the final word and that's important because we need to be able to say Jesus you get the final word because the great victory of forgiveness is not the past that the past disappears the victory and this is something that I think that we need to like put in our heads is that the past no longer gets to decide your future right that's what you were talking about.

We need to open our hands and I think with open hands like I was mentioning about how we receive the Eucharist what a how symbolic of of a gesture of freedom why because we've hugged anger long enough let it go don't be part of it let Christ have it so that's what I would say for this week homework for this week is ask yourself again what am I hugging?

Because if you're hugging it that means you have you're holding on to it pretty tightly and that's destructive give it away give it to him do what he commands and that that implies trust and I promise you if you do that you will you will you will have such freedom like you've never experienced in your life thank you for this great conversation father and um thank you all for listening and joining in share with someone that might benefit from our conversation today and have a wonderful week.

All right Michelle we'll see you next week God bless you