When Following God Doesn't Fix Your Problems

So it's hard to know when we're on or off. All right, okay, fine. Good evening

and welcome to Crowd Church. We're excited to be here tonight. Uh, tonight I'm

Anna, and tonight I'm joined by the lovely Dave. Dave, say hi to everyone.

Hi everybody, good to be with you again.

It's nice to have you back. Is it your first one after summer?

It is. It should have been last week, but I wasn't able to do.

Okay, cool. Well, it's lovely to have you back, Dave.

Good to be back.

Good, it's good. I'm also joined tonight by Sharon.

Hi everybody, good to be here.

Sharon's going to be sharing with us in a minute, um, on the next in our series

that we've been doing recently on Jesus the Revolutionary. So she's going to be

sharing the talk for us in a minute. Um, but just to say before we start that,

um, as we go into the talk tonight on Crowd Church, please do kind of, um,

follow along, um, make some comments, put your— post your questions in the

comments bar. Um, and also just to say that tonight we've got something a bit

different happening. So it's the first time we're trying out Live Lounge, which

is an opportunity just to join a Zoom, um, room where you can join other people

who are watching Crowd live. Um, and it's a chance to like chat to other people,

meet other people, connect a little bit, talk about what you're watching as you

go. Um, yeah, so people who want that, the link to the Zoom room will be in the,

um, in, in the comments box. And Matt says it's coming on in 5 seconds, so sorry

if it's not there yet. But yeah, we'll be adding that and, um, please join that

if you want to, but if not, that's fine as well. You can just watch us on

YouTube or social media, wherever you normally join us from. That's absolutely

fine too. Um, I think some people are already in that, in that chat room already

though. And then at the end of Crowd Church, us as hosts will also join to say a

quick hello to everyone too. So I think that's probably all I need to say at the

top. Um, so I'm going to pass over to Sharon, who's gonna, um, share with us

tonight. Yeah, cool.

Yeah, so when I started dating Matt, my now husband of 28 years, one of the

things—

can you hear him?

Yeah. One of the things that attracted me to him was that he was different to

other guys I knew. Those of you who know him will not be surprised by that. Um,

and one of the things that was different was that he loved studying the Bible,

and he would spend hours searching in it for the answers to his questions, and

then he would put them into practice, which was great, um, especially when it

came to the subject of marriage and being a good husband. And, um, he had Bible

verses and other inspirational or motivational sayings, um, pinned up around his

bedroom. Now, we can't remember what those were, but we're fairly sure that none

of them were the verse I'm going to talk about tonight. And I also don't

remember seeing them— I don't know, for those of you who are around churches in

the 1980s, they used to have these cute little posters up on the walls, um,

with, you know, sayings. I don't remember it being there either. So, it's not

usually a verse that makes it onto walls, though maybe your experience is

different. So, today is the first part of a series looking at the tougher

teachings of Jesus, and it's part of a larger series looking at Jesus the

revolutionary. Over the past few months, we've looked at how Jesus builds

belonging and different types of— a different type of community.

Mm-hmm.

And it's much easier to love those verses, you know, the ones that make us feel

warm and fuzzy. But if we want to be true followers of Jesus, we can't just pick

out the bits that we like and leave the rest, just as we can't only eat dessert

and expect to be healthy, unfortunately. Or maybe you're just looking into

Christianity, wondering what it's all about, wondering if Jesus is worth giving

your time to or your life to. Then it's important for you also to know some of

Jesus' tougher teachings so you don't get a lopsided view. So, what is this

verse we're going to look at today? It's John 16:33, and the first part of it

John 16:33

says this: In this world you will have trouble. Great, eh?

Mm.

It doesn't even say you might have trouble, it says you will. Now, some of you

are already thinking, wait, what? Jesus promises me trouble? I'm not sure I like

that. And for some, that verse will send you into a panic by anticipating what

might be coming your way. And for others who thought that being a Christian

would mean that everything would suddenly fall into place in your life, and that

it would mean an end to your trouble, this verse might come as a bit of a shock.

And in many ways, following Jesus does make life fall into place, because he

knows how he's created us to thrive. So, when I learnt to receive God's

forgiveness and his grace, that took that internal pressure of guilt and shame

from me. And when I learnt to forgive, it took the anger and the darkness from

me. And when I learnt to believe who God says I am, instead of all the negative

things going around in my brain, I could finally enjoy who God had created me to

be. But Jesus also said this in Luke 4. He said, the Spirit of the Lord is on me

because he's anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.

That's right.

He sent me to proclaim freedom to the prisoners and recovery of sight for the

blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour. So

Jesus is about all of these things. So in a way, following Jesus does make life

fall into place. However, we're also promised trouble. But I would like to argue

that this is actually an encouraging verse, especially when we look at the rest

of it.

Mm-hmm.

And the bits before, but I'll get into that soon. So, what does Jesus mean by

trouble? The Greek word used is thlipsis, and it's used 45 times in the New

Testament of the Bible. And its literal meaning is a pressure or squeezing or

compression, but it's used metaphorically to refer to something outward, an

outward affliction or a distress or a persecution that causes that internal

pressure and anguish.

Mm-hmm.

And I expect we've all experienced that at some point in our lives. Maybe that's

how you feel today. Now, there is a trouble that we bring on ourselves by our

own stupidity or rebellion. For example, if at work we're sloppy in what we do,

we arrive late, we leave early, we're likely to bring trouble on ourselves with

our boss and our coworkers. Or, for example, it's the kind of trouble that I

experienced years ago whilst driving.

Hmm.

And being distracted by 3 small kids in the car, and I turned— I missed my exit

on the motorway and turned a 1.5-hour journey into a 4.5-hour journey. So, Jesus

isn't talking about that kind of trouble here. The other uses of the Greek word

thlipsis in the New Testament refer to 2 other broad categories. The first is

the distress brought about by living in a broken world.

Mm.

So, it talks about the trouble or distress of losing your parents or becoming

So, even in these days, the loss of your parents or your husband is a

distressing event. In most cases, I hope the loss of a husband is a distressing

event. But back then, it added an extra layer of vulnerability to your life,

potentially leaving you without a protector or a provider. So, this type of

trouble would include things like illnesses, miscarriages, the endless search

for a job, abuse, many other things.

Yeah.

And this is the sort of trouble that's not caused by our own actions, and it's

the sort of trouble that we're all likely to face, whatever our religion or lack

of religion. It's the sort of stuff that happens to everyone because we live in

a broken world full of broken people. So, the second category is trouble that

comes as a direct result of our faith.

Yeah.

So, Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, talks about some extreme forms of

trouble that he suffered because he was a follower of Jesus. And this included

beatings, imprisonments, riots, hard work, sleepless nights, hunger, insults,

and loads more. And there are many people around the world today who experience

those things for their faith in Jesus. In the UK, we have much milder forms of

trouble for our faith, don't we?

Mm-hmm.

Evangelical Focus says Christians in the UK primarily experience cultural

pressure, workplace friction, and social hostility when expressing traditional

views on sexual ethics, marriage, and gender identity. While British law

protects religious freedom, many believers face practical challenges in public

and professional life. Now, Ephesians 6 tells us that we're in a spiritual

battle. It says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the

rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present

darkness, um, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

So, part of the trouble we face as believers is because of the spiritual battle,

spiritual forces stirring up trouble on earth. So, how is this promise of

trouble encouraging? Well, I think it's encouraging for a couple of reasons. One

is that we all do experience trouble, and if we have this belief that Being a

Christian should give us a guarantee of a trouble-free life. When trouble hits,

we can blame ourselves for our trouble, or we can doubt God's character, his

love, or his power, and we could needlessly throw away our faith. In fact, one

of the reasons Jesus gives for the teaching leading up to today's verse is this.

He says, all this I've told you so that you will not fall away. So, I think it's

encouraging to know that when we experience trouble, it doesn't necessarily mean

it's our fault, and it doesn't mean God doesn't love us, it doesn't mean we

haven't prayed enough or done enough. In fact, it can come because we are

pursuing God and doing exactly what we're meant to be doing. The second thing

that's encouraging is the next sentence of the passage. So, if we put the 2

sentences together, they say this: In this world you will have trouble, but take

heart, I have overcome the world.

Yes.

So, this verse comes at the end of a whole set of teaching that Jesus is giving

his closest followers, and the The context is really important because he's not

talking to them at a time when everything is happy and peaceful. Jesus is not

theorising about a distant future trouble. He's about to be betrayed to death by

one of the group, and he knows this is going to be an extremely distressing,

terrifying, and confusing time for them. He knows they're not as brave as they

thought they were. He knew they were going to desert him, scatter, and hide.

Mm-hmm.

And in the case of Peter, denying him 3 times, which Matt spoke about last week.

This is ver— this verse is like the end of a pep talk.

Yeah.

That a unit commander is giving to his soldiers right before they're going into

battle. He's calling them to take heart or have courage. The call is the same to

us when we're facing battles. So, if you're facing battles in your life today,

have courage. Why? Because he's overcome the world. But what does that mean? So,

in the Bible, the world often means more than the physical earth that we live

on. It can refer to our human systems that don't acknowledge God. And if you've

ever interacted with any of our human systems, you will know just how

frustrating they can be and how difficult. It refers to sin, rebellion, and

unbelief. It refers to the evil spiritual forces. God is greater than all of

them. He's more powerful. He's greater than every problem we have to face. So,

does this mean that every time we experience trouble, we can just pray and all

will be sunshine and rainbows and we'll feel fabulous? No. What does Jesus

overcoming the world look like in everyday life? So, it can look different in

different situations and for different people.

Mm-hmm.

For example, in the book of Acts chapter 5, Peter and some others were in prison

Acts 5 · chapter mention

for practice— for preaching about Jesus, and suddenly this angel showed up, and

supernaturally broke them out. I love stuff like that. I'd love to see more of

it in my life.

Mm-hmm.

But just 2 chapters later, we read about Stephen, who was this incredibly godly

man, getting stoned to death by the religious people for preaching about Jesus.

2 chapters later. And before they started stoning him, the Bible says this, but

Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God,

and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Look, he said, I see heaven open

and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. So sometimes Jesus

overcoming the world in our lives involves the miracles and the outcomes that we

wanted. Sometimes it involves God giving his presence and the peace to walk

through the situation, knowing that there's more than just this life. So one of

the trustees of the charity that I work for, was diagnosed with skin cancer at

the same time as I was last year. And I experienced Jesus in this really

powerful way. I had a strong sense that it wasn't my time to die. And whenever,

whenever I felt upset, I prayed it through, and I had such this strong sense of

peace and joy and love.

Mm-hmm.

It just like, it was amazing. And it was as if God was working behind the scenes

to bring me this highly skilled surgical team, including a Christian anaesthetist

who was praying for miracles. And it was this, um, it was like God worked

through the team to give me a better outcome than they could have done alone. So

that was Jesus overcoming the world. That's what it looked like for me. My

colleague, on the other hand, experienced the suffering and anguish of a cancer

that spread and caused her much pain. But within that, she experienced the peace

of God and that anticipation that death wasn't the end of the story.

The blessing.

And that actually something better was waiting on the other side for her. And it

was her funeral a few months ago. 2 people, similar situation, God working in

both of us, but it looked completely different.

Yeah.

So, there's a certain amount of mystery to all this, isn't there? We don't

necessarily get the answer to the question of why. Like, why does God do a

miracle for one person and just give strength for another, or something

different? Why does God allow that innocent child to get brain cancer and

suffer? Why does he allow a Christian pastor to get hit by a sign at a Christian

festival and die? Why does he allow the wars? Why, why, why? There are partial

answers to these questions in the Bible, but I think this side of eternity, we

only catch a glimpse of that.

Mm.

The answers don't fully satisfy. They don't always make sense to us at the time.

But Jesus dying on the cross looked like a big failure, but in fact, it was part

of God's rescue plan. So even when we don't understand, why don't we take Jesus'

advice in our trouble and have courage because he has overcome the world? I'm

gonna hand back to you guys.

Perfect. Thanks so much, Sharon. That was great and just a lot of really good

content in there. I, um, I just love that last point that even when it looked

like the plan had all gone wrong, yeah, you know, when Jesus died on the cross,

it was like, actually, it looked like Not an outcome that the disciples or

anybody who knew Jesus was like hoping for or expecting. They expect that this

kind of Messiah to come and rescue them all, but actually Jesus' rescue plan

kind of looked like human— like failure in human eyes.

Yeah.

But it wasn't. It was like— yes, that, that's just incredible. What a great

thought to start on. It's— yeah, yeah, inspiring. What did you think, Dave? What

jumped out to you?

I think, you know, as you— when Sharon started and she talked about, you know,

the verse, I think probably very few Christians have that, um, underlined in the

Bible, um, as, you know, their favourite verse. Um, but I think it's a real

verse, and I think it's all about trusting God, you know, which is what the

faith walk is about, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, um, I think, you know, as we read this verse, and I was looking

at it in several different versions today, You know, it doesn't say God sent the

trouble.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm sure there are times when God pulls back his grace and trouble

unfortunately comes into people's lives. But, um, I, I had 2 points and it was

simply, and the question is not whether suffering will come, the question is how

will we respond when it does?

Yeah.

Because, you know, that really shows us where we are. Like you were saying about

the 2 ladies, Oh, sorry, yourself.

Yeah.

And your colleague. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's really good. I think that example you gave, Sharon, of you and your

colleague— um, was it colleague?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, it's quite— it's really powerful. Like, like, like you said, 2 similar

journeys but 2 different outcomes, and yet God was in them both. And I sort of

reflect on times when it's like, I don't understand this, I don't understand why

that's happened.

Yeah.

But as you say, good things happen— like, bad things happen to good people all

the time.

Yes.

But I suppose for me, it's stepping back from that and being like, well, that's

the situation. But one thing I heard this summer actually that just really has

stuck with me on this theme was, um, Tyler Staton, who's a— he's a church pastor

in America, and, um, he's written a few books on prayer and the Holy Spirit and

stuff. And he was speaking at Wildfires, which some of the Crowd group we're at.

Um, and like, he, he talked about kind of how, um, some of those things that we

don't understand, it's only resolved— like, we, we want healing now, we want

miracles now.

Yeah.

We want answers to prayer now. Absolutely. And I'm the same as the next person.

Like, I, I want God to step into my situation and fix it fast. Who doesn't,

right? That's just human nature, isn't it?

Yeah.

But what he says is, even in those instances where God does that it's not a

permanent fix, it's a temporary one, because it doesn't solve the eternal

problem.

Yeah.

Which is that, you know, they might not— like, even if God had stepped in to

save your friend in that kind of physical healing kind of way, she would have

still died at some point.

Yes.

It might not have been cancer and it might not have been today, but we all die,

right? We all, we all have like that, that kind of finite— because sin and the

way that this broken world is. So it's like even when God does step in, it's

only a temporary solution.

Yes.

But actually, the, the big solution that we all have is only in salvation, and

we already have that.

Yes.

Right, as believers, we have that, and that's an eternal guarantee.

Yeah.

An eternal inheritance. Um, that promise that God will heal and redeem and

restore everything in time.

Yeah.

Is kind of You know that. Yeah. And I just think that, that's really stuck with

me over the last few weeks and just been mulling it over all summer. It's just

like, oh yeah, so often we can get fixated on like, why didn't God do it this

way? Or— and God's not always interested in the immediate fix. He's interested

in the long-term fix.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what the cross did. Um, yeah, yeah. So it just strikes me as you're

talking about it.

I think it is that having that eternal perspective, isn't it, just changes the

way that we look at what happens now. We don't necessarily always get the

answers now, but when you— yeah, it's almost like you can step out and take that

bigger view. Um, we were talking in our physical church we go to this morning

about how worshiping God can get our eyes off our little situation now and look

up to the one who is bigger, who's got everything, you know, in his grip.

But yeah, everything around us I, I, it feels at times it's about the immediate

fix. And the thing that I've been a Christian a long time and I've had high

highs and low lows and I had lots of painful things happen and, you know, I've

known lots of the glory of God. But, you know, for me, the thing is knowing that

God is walking through it with us, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, and, and just as we, you know, we embrace scripture in those really

difficult times. especially of loss, especially, um, I mean, I've had a number

of friends that died over the last 12 months, and, um, and, and nothing can fill

that void, and nothing's supposed to, you know, because we are supposed to miss

them. And it's only when we look at that void with a, with thankfulness, you

know, thankfulness to God, um, because we know that God is in that situation.

Yeah. But, you know, I was saying to Sharon before we started, you know, when I

read the, you know, the verse for today, it takes me to, um, Daniel 3, where

there's these 3 young men, um, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego, you know. And

these are men who were thought to be of high standing. They were exiles, they

were in prison, but they were thought to be in high standing. And demands were

being put on them. And, um, and it says in Daniel 3, Verse 17 and 18, it says

Daniel 3:17

this. This is these 3 young men, and they're being told, you will worship our

idol or you're going in this fiery furnace. People were dying just getting it

hot enough. And they say this, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us, and

he will deliver us. But if not, we will not serve your God.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's that thing of, God can, God will, but should he not, he has a

greater plan. And, um, and I think for me about trusting God, because stuff— you

have to see, it's like you go from one trouble to the next, or from one

situation that's flooding into you, like, to the next. But knowing that he is

there because he said he would be, and he walks it with us.

Yeah, I love that, Dave. And, and, you know, that, that whole idea of even if

not, it's just so powerful. And absolutely, I know in difficult times I've I've

had to make that decision as well, where it's like choosing to believe God that

if you kind of heal or fix the situation in the way that I want you to do, then

that's wonderful. But even if not, yeah, I, I'm choosing to trust that you've

got my life and you've got a plan for my future and that you're in control of

everything anyway.

Yeah.

That's challenging, isn't it? And Katharine touched on this, but people do often

walk away from their faith when they hit hard times and I'm sure we all know

people, like each of us around the table, who've kind of hit something difficult

and they've been faced with that kind of decision. And it's like, this, this is

too much, it's asking too much of me. Or maybe they just hadn't been prepared

for the fact that they would have troubles as a Christian. Maybe, maybe faith

had been too shallow, or they just misunderstood that Christianity doesn't take

all your problems away necessarily.

Yes.

And I just love that bit that you said, Sharon, um, when you pointed out, um,

where is it? Yeah, John 16:16, I think it was. Like, I've told you all this, you

John 16:16

don't fall away.

Yes.

I've never noticed that verse before. I'm like, oh, Jesus is explaining this.

Yes.

Because he knows that we'll struggle with it.

Yes.

And he's saying, don't fall away when things get tough. Trust me in it and trust

that I've got a bigger purpose and plan.

Yeah.

it's really worth reading the whole teaching that he does before this, like

preparing them, because this is, this is just one verse of a—

Yeah.

A big passage. There's so much in it. Um, and as I was preparing, it's just

like, I totally recommend preparing a talk even if you're never going to give

one, because you get so much from it.

Yes.

Just reading through all this stuff and like thinking, okay, why is Jesus saying

this? And yeah, and, um, You're talking about the bit about people falling away.

It also reminded me of the parable of the sower. So for those who don't know, it

talks about a sower who went out to sow and the seed fell on different types of

soil. And there was, I think it was the rocky soil where the plants grew up, but

then they shriveled because the roots weren't deep enough. And he's talking

about that. That's like when we're— when our faith is just a shallow faith, when

trouble or persecution comes.

Yeah.

we fall away. So that all ties in as well. So I guess the question would be,

how, how do we not have a shallow faith? How do we have a deeper faith? Any—

just throw that one out there.

But it's got to go back to the church, I think, you know, because lots of

people, they, they hear a gospel that is, come to Jesus and everything's been—

is good, God's got a plan for you, like. But that's, that's, that's a cheap

gospel, you know. I really believe that's a cheap— I believe it's a lie as well.

You know, because, um, you know, people come to faith and, and they go through

all sorts of things. But it's, it's not about coming to Jesus to get a better

life, you know, to get a do-over type of thing or an upgrade. It's about coming

to Jesus and surrendering your life and submitting your life to his will. And,

um, so I think it starts, you know, with the church. I think it's teaching

people, you know, who Jesus is, you know, and what has God Why did God send

Jesus? And as you read the New Testament— somebody said to me a number of times

last year, I'm nurturing some people, how do I nurture them?

Mm-hmm.

And I said, well, if it was me, I would get them to read Matthew, Mark, Luke,

and John, and when they finished, get them to read it again and maybe spend

maybe 2 years, which does not fit our world's thinking. But what about the Old

Testament? After 2 years or so reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, You get to

know the Father's heart. You get to know what the cross entailed. You get to

know the victory that Jesus brought and paid for in full. And I think there has

to be an investment. You know, there's no question over the seed.

Mm-hmm.

You know, when in all those different situations, and there's no question of

whether the seed's good and it has the capability of reproducing, has the

capability of flourishing, you know. And, um, I think we need to really just be

conscious of that seed. And just, you know, one final thing, you know, we

talked, we listed like those difficult things, you know, like grief, you know,

um, you know, through, whether it's through, you know, bereavement or whatever

it is. And they are really real things.

Mm-hmm.

And we all go through life with, you know, with seeing brokenness to ourselves

or people around us. And also, before I became a church minister, I am— I was a

nurse, and part of my job was to work with families whose children were going to

die. And, um, far too many times, even though it was a privilege to be in that

position, you know, I had to walk through that with parents whose children died.

And, um, I used to come away thinking, I don't know how you do that. without

having Christ in your life. It's just, for me, just far too overwhelming, um,

without knowing that there's somebody bigger than this, you know, and it's God.

Yeah, yeah.

I, I think it's really interesting, that point you raised, Dave, um, about we

all have a responsibility as the church, and by that I mean like all of us who

are Christians believers, we're all the church, and we do have a responsibility

not to undersell the gospel or make it sound easier than it is, because being a

Christian isn't easy all the time. And what God asks of us is our whole lives,

as you pointed out.

Yeah.

It is worth it. It's not easy, but it's worth it. But the, the other thing that

I think is— it's so part of it is on the church, but I also think, and I was

thinking this as you were talking, it's also about individuals taking some

responsibility as well for their own growth. So I, I mean, one of the ways that

I think anyone can get a really good start, part of it is reading scripture and

doing that and reading about the life of Jesus and just getting into scripture

daily or as often as you can and just really getting to know this Jesus who

you've— who you follow. But I also think the other thing is like, do the Alpha

course.

Yes.

Like, that is— we're talking about good foundations and good roots, and I think

that is a really good basis for starting the Christian faith on sort of right

footing with— like, it's a 14 or 15 week course and it takes you through a lot

of the basics of Christianity. And it's not a quick emotional decision.

That's right.

It's like looking at all the evidence and understanding what it truly means to

follow Jesus over a number of weeks and discussing that with others. And I

think, you know, it— that is just such a good foundation. And we're running them

at the moment, and we're running an Alpha course at the moment. in Crowd, and

we've done previous ones. And if you're watching this tonight and thinking, I'm

not sure if my foundations are that strong, whether you've been a Christian for

a week or you're not a Christian, you're just looking at the Christian faith, or

you've been a Christian for years but you think, I'm not sure how my foundations

are, I recommend anyone signs up and does that. I think, um, you know, I, I grew

up in a Christian family, so I was always around church from a very young age,

as young as I can remember. But I still went to university and did the Alpha

course because I wanted to be sure that my own roots were good and that I was— I

knew what I believed and that I was sure why I believed what I believed. And I,

like, I would encourage anyone to do it at any point in there. It's not just for

new believers, it's for anyone who wants to kind of look at it again and, and

make sure they've got good foundations. But if you are interested in doing it,

Crowd is running every Wednesday, um, so it's 7:30. Um, so yeah, it started last

week, but it's not too late to join. Matt and Sharon are involved, so come

along. And you can, you can come and, um, just observe, like, like the same as

watching Crowd, just watch from a distance. Or you can kind of, you can have

your camera on or off. So yeah, just come and listen, or you can ask questions

if you want to. But I'd encourage anyone to do that. And if you're not free on a

Wednesday or that doesn't work for you, then There's tons of other Alpha courses

happening across the UK. Loads of local churches run them. There's loads online.

So just find one or grab the book even and just, just get deeper into that. So

that, that's one thing practically that everyone can do to kind of strengthen

their own faith as well. Um, is there anything else you want to add about that,

Sharon?

No, I've got another question for me though.

Go on then.

So, so Dave, you talked about it's not so much where the trouble comes, it's

your response to it.

Yes.

I was just wondering for you guys, you've kind of answered this But what has

stopped you from going, God, you— this is— I don't like this trouble.

Why?

You're all-powerful, you're all-loving, why are you not stopping it? What

stopped you from walking away, thinking those things and walking away? What

keeps you with God?

We live in the same world as everybody else does, but hopefully we're walking in

somebody else's footsteps. And, um, my story is that, you know, I've got— you

know, we've all been through horrendous things, you know, either personally or

to affect our families, our community. But, you know, scripture says this, and,

and for me, um, I, I just have to go back. I don't like being in the midst of

chaos and pain and brokenness. Who does, you know? Um, but, you know, scripture

in James 1:2 says, consider it all— sorry, consider it pure joy. And I'm like,

James 1:2

are you kidding me? See, can I just tell you, my friends, God wants those

conversations. And you can have these, that type of conversation in an Alpha

course. You know, are you kidding me? You know, how does this work in this

situation? You know, consider it pure joy. God, are you— come on. You know, and

he says, whenever you face trials. And, you know, for me in that, is it It just

makes me think, God, you know, and I say this a lot on Crowd, you know, I grab

hold— sometimes I can only grab hold of God and his word. And he, you know, and

he says, you know, in the context of what we're talking about this evening, I

will never leave you or abandon you.

Mm-hmm.

And I can only say, for me, that verse, those verses, it's in the Old Testament

and in the New Testament, that Just, and just like, puts its arms around me and

hold me when I want to wobble, when I want to look over my shoulder, when I want

to consider going a different way, when I want to consider giving in. You know,

I'm just like, God says he'll never leave me or abandon me. It also says in

Psalms, where can I go with God? Because, you know, I can give up on God, I can

turn away, I can have, you know, me tantrum. He's my Heavenly Father. And he

says, I'm just stood here, son. And the safest place for any of us are in his

arms.

I think that's really right, Dave. And I, I was just reflecting on Sharon's

question as well, and I, I kind of— my answer is similar in that I think, where

else? But I mean, in a way, I'm a bit more pragmatic about it. Like, I think,

you know, it's not just like It's great to have God's presence, but it's also

like, where else would I go?

Yes.

Do you know, like, this world, we will all have troubles. You'll have trouble

whether you walk with God in this world or you walk without God. You know, I

have cancer, losing parents, miscarriage, whatever it is, long-term health

problems.

Totally.

You know, I have a lot of friends in this season of life that are going through

those things, both Christian and not.

Yeah.

Divorces. Yeah. Like family breakdowns. all kinds of things. But I know that

personally, I would rather walk those difficult things with God than walk them

alone. And I think it's a similar thing to you, Dave. So, so for me, I'm just

like, I'm quite pragmatic about it. Like, well, these things, these troubles are

there whether you walk it with God or not. Why wouldn't you choose to do it with

the one, the hope of God's presence and that experience of God walking with you

and not being kind of lost and on your own in the middle of it. But also, like,

it's a twofold hope. So it's a hope of God's presence here with you now in the

middle of it, carrying you, supporting you, helping you, um, you know,

comforting you if you're grieving, whatever it is. But it's also a hope of

eternity, that one day, you know—

Yes.

Those things won't be trouble. There won't be trouble anymore. One day God will

make it right again. And so there's a hope now, and there's a hope in eternity.

I'm like, For me, it mind-boggles a little bit because I'm like, well, why would

you throw away that hope? Then you're just kind of less with— left with the

hopelessness of the situation. The situation's the same, but now there's no hope

in that situation. So I know when I've been in those situations where I'm like,

well, this is really difficult and I'm struggling to trust God, I'm still like,

I want— I'm like desperately clinging on to God, really. I'm like, I can't do

this without the hope that God's there somewhere in the middle of all the mess

and pain. Like, so, so for me, it's like, I can't imagine wanting to let go of

that. Like, it's— for me, it's an easier option to walk with God in the midst of

pain than apart from him. But that, that, that's just been my experience.

But, and there's a story in that, isn't there? You know, um, a friend of ours,

Ruth Richardson, She died of cancer a few years ago. Just a young woman.

She was the same age as me.

And she had 2 children.

2 children, yeah.

Early teens maybe, or just coming to the teens. And, um, just a lovely, lovely

lady. And, you know, she got sick one summer, diagnosed with stage 4 cancer.

And, um, you know, obviously horrendous. And the prognosis, there wasn't one.

You know, death was, was coming and I remember visiting her on a number of

occasions, and, um, just before she died, we talked about death and, and a whole

host of things. And, um, and, and even into her really worst days, you know, I

remember being sat there with her and, and we, and we laughed when we were

talking about the goodness of God and about, you know, God telling her, um,

giving her a story. And, um, you know, I know he As I've talked about Ruth to my

friends who have died in the last 12 months, because Ruth's story was right in

the midst of it all. God was right there with her, and she knew God's presence

in amongst the pain and all the stuff that end-of-life care brings. He was

there, and I was able to share, um, her story. And, and Ruth had this line, and

it was this, that The last year of her life was the best year of being a

Christian. Her prayer life changed, her family life changed. There was just a

greater intimacy. And I've been able to share that with another 40-year-old lady

who died of exactly the same disease and a guy in his mid-50s who died of a very

rare cancer. And you know what? They found great comfort in Ruth's story. And

our stories of going through difficulties can bring comfort to others.

We're keeping going.

We're going, right. Yeah. You know, so I, you know, it's so painful, you know,

seeing this lovely young lady just almost as it were dying in front of my eyes,

and yet knowing that God was so present with her. It was just amazing.

Yeah, yeah, just an incredible story. And, um, yeah, I remember that, that time

as well, and just powerful, like, difficult situations, but God's presence in

the midst of it brings hope and meaning, doesn't it?

Yeah.

And there's some interesting questions, comments and questions that are coming

through on the feed, so I'll just read a couple of them out. So we've got Alicia

says, being able to come to God with our frustrations is an underrated ability.

I think to the, to the question, I think what keeps me from walking away is that

even when I'm angry, I feel him with me.

Yes.

And I think that speaks to what you were saying, that, that, yeah, his— that

sense of his presence and his being with you makes such a difference. Yeah,

yeah. Once you've known God's presence, you can't unknow it again, can you?

Yeah.

Um, Ellis says, in regard to faith, one thing I struggle with is For example,

God never said he would do X specifically. So for all I know, bad things, bad

thing X and Y are going to happen. And if I struggle with that, what if? So

basically, yeah, God never— and it's true. And yeah, I don't know if this is,

this is the point of it, but I, I totally agree that it's often Christians are

like, oh, I'm believing for this, I'm believing for that. But often that's more

about our own desires and our own desired projection.

Yeah.

you know, name it and claim it kind of Christianity. And I'm not trying to mock

that, but I do think sometimes it can be dangerous to assume to know—

Absolutely.

What God should do in a situation or what God, yeah, has said in a situation.

Um, and it's quite— I think it can be quite hard to hear God when it's something

so personal or a devastating situation. Like, it's very hard to separate your

own desires and wants and preferences and needs Um, with kind of what God's

doing or saying in a situation. And I think I certainly never know for sure that

God said, I'm going to do X, Y, or Z in a very directive way.

Well, I think it's how we're wired. We receive differently. So there's the

wonderful story, isn't it, where Jesus says to the disciples, we're going to go

across the lake, or, you know, Sea of Galilee, we're going across. Then this

storm comes And, you know, it's horrendous, but these are experienced fishermen.

They should not be surprised. He didn't say, we're gonna go halfway across and

it's gonna sink. You know, so I think, you know, God says, for me, I know the

leading of God in my life. We're going over there, Dave, and that's where I head

for. I don't need GPS coordinates, if that makes sense. Name it and claim it, I

think, is more dangerous than beneficial.

I think we just have to, we just have to hold things lightly, don't we? Like,

even if we believe we have really clearly heard God.

Absolutely.

I think we don't know the how and the when and the why. Like, I always think of

the Israelites in the desert. Like, if you've ever read the book of Exodus, they

wander through the wilderness for 40 years on a journey that could have, like,

geographically could have taken them 20 days.

Yeah, yeah.

Because, like, you know, it's, it's not like an A to B journey always with God.

Like, it just always strikes me God's timing is often not ours as well, and the

ways that he works and the like he fulfills his promises, but not necessarily in

our timescale. Or as Sharon said about the cross, it's— it doesn't always happen

the way we expect the rescue to come.

Yeah.

So I— yeah, there's an element for me of like holding, yeah, all of it lightly

before God and just being like, I trust you.

Yeah.

Whatever circumstances come my way.

Yeah.

Which is hard to do, right?

Yeah.

One more comment here. Talita says, I struggle to understand how people who walk

in faith their whole lives stray sometimes when things fall apart. To me, it has

been the opposite. That's an interesting point, isn't it? Because I think for

some people, um, difficult seasons of life definitely do grow their faith. Like,

it's interesting. I guess it comes back to what you said about rootedness.

Yeah, yeah.

But if the roots are good and deep, like Yeah, actually seasons of difficulty,

hardship, suffering in our lives can actually push you closer to God because you

have that really deep sense of urgency about your need for him. And sometimes

I've seen that in friends and in my own life, like you pursue him more urgently

because you need, you need him more desperately perhaps than when everything's

plodding along fine in life.

Yeah, I mean, I think when some, you know, people stray I think, you know, I

mean, that's a bigger conversation than what we have time for here. But, you

know, for me, it's all about being surrendered.

Mm.

If you're surrendered, I think there's less chance for you to be distracted and

go off to do your own things. But, you know, sometimes we say people stray, and

I, I would say now, you know, being a late 60s gentleman, um, that I think just

sometimes they're not doing the Christian life the way I would like them to, you

know, and it doesn't look quite the Christian way that I've done it for my life,

but they still have an experience and they still love God because they may give

up on God, but God's not going to give up on them. You know, just because

they're a lousy disciple doesn't make them a non-Christian again.

You know, it's an interesting Question actually, and this is probably going a

bit off the subject of the talk, but I'm interested in what you think, Dave. So

do you think people can lose their salvation once they've given their life to

God? And well, I know that's a really deep question, but give us like a quick

snapshot.

I'm not— all I would say from my personal experience, I became a Christian from

nothing, but you know, I— and God delivered me from a whole host of things that

were destroying my life, like overnight. For 18 months, I— God did amazing

things, but there was one area in my life that was not surrendered to him, you

know, and I was away after about 18 months for the best part of 2 years, and I

was in a much worse place than I was before I was a Christian. But thank God

that there was a person who was praying for me. And I am— I believe that if you

have surrendered your life to Christ, I don't personally believe that you, you,

you, you can lose your faith.

Mm.

I would say— and yet I swing between both of them, to be honest, because I know

God's such a gracious God, you know, and I believe once you tasted him— I'm

talking about if you've really, if you've really committed your life to God, and

life can be bad and horrendous, you know. And I just don't believe that you can

lose something that is just bestowed upon you, that you receive freely.

Mm-hmm.

I know I walked away. And, you know, and I, I talk very deep between people, you

know, live as disciples of Jesus and, you know, then people turn away just

because they're not living as disciples. You know, I can't— my kids can't un-be.

stop being my kids. They might want to, you know. And, you know, and there are

times I think, you know, um, I don't think you can unfather somebody personally,

especially when God has given his Son to die for them, if they've truly

surrendered. But I would take it back to what was the gospel we're preaching,

you know.

Mm.

Are people coming to Christ because they want a better life? you know, your best

life now, living your best life. That's nonsense. You know, it's, do you realise

that you, you know, you're lost and you're going to a lost eternity if you don't

know Christ? And you don't need to because he's died for you.

At the same time, I think sometimes people can maybe come to Jesus for the wrong

reasons initially, and then as they get to know him, it's like, oh, I think

maybe all of us at some point have not really been there for all the right

reasons, and are we now even? I don't know.

Well, if you look at Simon the Sorcerer, the Scripture will tell us, and

actually, um, that, you know, we know Simon the Sorcerer, you know, he, he

comes, he responds to the message, he gets baptised, and then God comes— um,

sorry, the apostles come, and, and they're like, um, they see them, you know,

operating in the gifts, and they're like, can I buy it?

Mm-hmm.

Can I buy that off you? And, and that is just, for me, you know, we know Messiah

and the source. We don't know what happens afterwards, you know, but he

definitely made a decision to follow. We know he gets baptised, you know. We're

just wet clay, you know, and we need to be discipled, we need to be nurtured.

And if that doesn't happen, we can't get those things out of Simon. We can't

teach him that the gifts of God, they're free because Jesus paid them all. He's

trying to buy something that God's trying to give him.

Yeah, that's interesting. I think no, no easy answers, is there? But I agree,

really. I'd, I'd like to think that you can't unknow God once you've known him.

You can make choices that are poor, and you can choose to not acknowledge him in

your day-to-day life. You can— your life can look a bit like someone who doesn't

know him quite often. Um, but it doesn't mean that you haven't known God and

that he hasn't known you. And I, I think it's hard to undo that, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, I don't know if you ever heard the story. Um, I'm not very good at

telling stories, but it basically says the thief on the cross, you know, that

thief on the cross, he goes to heaven, And one of the, you know, one of the

welcomers on the gate says, hi, how are you doing? Um, what's your name? Oh, it

doesn't appear to be here. Just a minute. Um, what's your theory of salvation? I

haven't got one. Okay, what's your theory on the second coming? Don't have one.

And he asked him 7 questions. He said, let me get my supervisor. The supervisor,

probably Peter, comes He said, just let me ask you a question. He said, I don't

have any answers to that. So, well, why are you here? And he says this, because

the man on the cross right next to me said today I'll be with him in paradise.

And it really is that simple that Jesus has paid. And you know what? It's not a

model, okay? I'm not suggesting it's a model because he, I mean— It's a gift.

didn't get baptised, how was he getting into heaven? You know, it's a heart. You

know, sometimes we're asking people to know stuff and do stuff. He's like, God's

heart's much bigger than doing any of those things.

Yeah, so true. Um, I'm aware that time is ticking on, as it always does. It goes

very fast when you're hosting Crowd Church, doesn't it? Um, but I, I suppose,

um, yeah, we'll We'll start wrapping up, but Sharon, have you got any final

thoughts or comments or anything else that you want to add?

I think just the thing of, um, just because stuff comes against us, it doesn't

necessarily mean it's God's will. It's, it's that tension, isn't it, between God

allows it but it doesn't mean it's his will, because he, he tells us to pray

that his kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven, because his will is not

always done. Many people go against his will. And so I think it's just that if

trouble does come against us, I think I'm especially thinking of people who are

in abusive situations, not to think, oh, this is happening, therefore it must be

God's will. Because I think if you're in those situations, it can really

scramble your brain and you can start to think—

Mm-hmm.

So it's not that he doesn't, um, get us out of those situations sometimes, do

you know what I mean? It's like we're not— if we're in that, we're not meant to

stay in that.

Yeah.

Um, yes, it's just really to flag that up, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a really important point actually. Like, yeah, if you're in a

difficult or unsafe situation, God's not asking you to stay there. Um, Dave, any

final thoughts or comments from you?

Yeah, just one.

Amen.

Um, if you don't know Jesus Christ as your own personal Saviour tonight, I want

you to know this: he offers each of us forgiveness, hope, and eternal life. To

all, whoever you are, whatever we've done, wherever we've been, whatever our

story is, he offers those things. To all who put their trust in him. I want to

encourage you, find an Alpha course, join the Alpha course.

Amazing, thanks Dave. So I think we'll wrap up the live stream at this point.

Um, just a final reminder that if you want to carry on this conversation, if you

want to come meet us in the Zoom room, you can join the live lounge. The link

should be in the chat. Um, in the comments. Um, so yeah, it is, I am told. So

yeah, come and join us if you want to continue the conversation and meet us in

person. Um, yeah, as Dave said, Alpha's started, so come along on Wednesday at

half 7, um, if you want to join us there. And if not, we will be here again next

Sunday, same time, 7 PM. So we'll see you then and have a great week.