Leftovers - Acts 17

Happy Monday. Matt and Chris are back with you

here on the ERC Leftovers podcast.

A lot has happened. A lot going on has happened.

Do we record? Did we do a podcast during day

camp last year? I can't even remember.

We actually did during day camp. Oh, yeah.

We, we kind of, we kind of waited.

And you know, The thing is like, I'm sure the mic didn't pick up.

I don't think it picked up any of you know, I don't think it

did. The the controlled madness.

Yeah. I'm not sure if you're going to

go chaos or joy there. No, I, I would, you know, maybe

controlled madness with a big splash of joy.

That's kind of how I I perceive that.

That sounds good. Yeah.

So no, we did that last week. A lot has happened though,

because we had day camp all week and then like 4th of July

parade, pool party yesterday. There's just been a lot of

stuff, a lot of stuff happening. You had child's birthday on the

4th like it's. Yeah, I have two adult children

now, which at the age of 44, I don't.

You know, somebody asked me when, you know, I mentioned,

yeah, I have two adult kids. They said, oh wow, does that

make you, do you feel old? No, actually I'm just more so

feeling like I can breathe a little bit because we're listen,

I hear at the point where we're like, OK, like, wait there.

I don't think there's ever a quote, UN quote finish line

because your kids are always your kids.

But like when they're both adults and, and they're, they're

living their lives fairly independently of you, you're

like, wow, we, we actually did that.

It feels like, it feels like you've done the impossible

because anybody who's raised kids, you know that there's

moments throughout either their younger years or when they're

teenagers that you're like, man, I, I don't know, we're making it

through. This doesn't seem like they're

going to be able to survive like.

But you know, my, my message to any parents who have, you know,

are currently going through some heavy hitting stuff, you know,

with your kids, like you're going to make it, They're going

to make it. We're all going to be OK.

But like, we have to, we have to have faith in the process, the

long game. Yeah, I feel like that's a.

That's a good word. We've all made it except for.

Except for the ones that didn't. I'm sorry.

What? I don't know it's.

Monday it is Monday. I, I have to, you guys don't

know this who are listening to this, but I feel like I need to

make like A at least a mildly public apology to my fellow

staff members just because like, I've been on it today.

You have been. Like, I don't know, I just, you

know, you could use the phrase woke up on the wrong side of the

bed. Who knows?

But like I've been on it today, so I'm actually.

Chris Chris has a major case in the Mondays Today.

Real bad. Real bad.

It's it's real today since Kristen.

Already left for the day so she couldn't take it anymore.

She, she actually like I, I had said something about I need

somebody to like yell at. And then Kristen brought in this

book. From from a.

First aid kit and I don't think the first aid kit has been open

since the 80s. And so she opened it up in like

the smell of like, you know, 50 year old band aids hit me in the

face and I was like, Kristen, you just gave me this somebody

to yell at. And I was like, get out of my

office with that smell. The the date on the book was

1966, so I mean that was almost almost 60 years old.

Yeah, you could smell it. It was almost 60.

Years old. It was gross.

Wow, what is? Yeah, my goodness.

So. So let me.

Ask you, let me ask you a question.

OK, what? What is like one of the smells

that other people don't seem to mind that you just cannot

handle? That's not the question I

thought you were going to ask. I thought we were going to go

down a smell related path. Now I actually so most this this

sounds super weird. Most soaps actually like hand

soap, but most like wash your hands in a sink soap.

Most of those smells are very appalling to me actually.

Like I need something fairly neutral, not very fruity.

Maybe like especially anything, anything like a public restroom

that is like one of those push foam things like any of those

that just thought it kind of like industrial cleaner.

And I feel like those ones like stick with you all day.

Like after I do that, I'm like, I'm going to go dunk my hands of

gasoline to get together to get this smell off because like

that's the only thing that will overpower this soap smell that I

can't stand. So that might, that might seem

weird, but like I have, I have some very specific we get like

Miss Miss Myers, like lemon, lemon zest had scented hand

soap. But like that's I don't know,

that's like a mild fine smell that I can get.

But any of this like, I don't know, Rose Blossom or whatever

Quickstar has in there a little bit like it's just it's, it's an

overwhelming, like almost gives me a headache sort of.

So like, if I'm going to wash my hands in that scenario and I'm

you, maybe I just try and get really, really hot water and

skip this. I don't know.

I don't know. Yeah.

So, OK, So what? What is that for you?

Well, today I never I. I guess I never realized it

until today, but maybe it's a. Musty book smell.

Well, no, it actually, it smelled like it.

It, it smelled and I smelled. So Kristen walked in with this

book and this stuff. She was at least 7 feet away.

Yeah, she never really walked. Like into your office.

She was in the doorway. But I smelled old old old band

aids and I just I, I, I could not like.

Plastic flexi band aids in the metal.

Oh my gosh, she she gave me, I think a person to like yell at

today. I was like get out of my house.

Like she, she gave me my out. She.

Feels so strongly about this. I do like it was just the worst

smell and actually, so for, for those of you, and I know it's

not everybody, but for those of you who you may enjoy like

trying like a craft beer or something like that.

I've had one that it tasted like band aids.

I'm not joking. And so then I go into my little,

I go into my little app and I look at the description and I

wasn't going crazy. Several other people were like,

this tastes like band aids smell.

And I was like, Yep, that's why, That's why I dumped it because I

was like, this is disgusting. That is gross.

You don't. You don't want that.

I don't want to drink band aids or or even really smell them.

Right. That's more, that makes more

sense because we taste with our smell too, right?

I wanted to know who the people were writing reviews that are

like this tastes like band aids. Yeah.

Who's tasting band? But tastes like Band-Aid smell.

Tastes like Band-Aid smell. Yeah.

So it it was not, it was not great.

And so, yeah, if I today, if I got to pick on something, it's

the smell of band aids. It's terrible because that was

the smell of band aids on steroids.

It was too much. Yikes.

So I feel, I feel like that's a good question for the masses

too. What's what's the smell?

That's like weird. What's what's the smell that's

usually pleasant for other people that you just can't

stand? Or what's the smell that's

usually unpleasant because like actually I brought up gasoline.

Some people like the smell of gasoline, Which.

Is really dangerous. Right, which is really

dangerous, but I'm just what's the what's the smell that you

that is off putting to other people that you maybe are like,

Nah, I'm good. You know, I'll give you, I'll

give you mine just since we're on the medical kit thing, let's

just stay there and I'll tell you that like in the right

doses, not not huge amounts, but in small doses, the smell of

like rubbing alcohol for some reason that is pleasant to me

and I don't know why. I know it's weird, right?

It's really strange. It's really.

Strange. Yeah, I, I can't agree with you

on that one. I 'cause that's I don't like, is

there Robin, what's what's in what's in fingernail Polish

remover? That's that's like, that's bad.

That's like one of the worst smells to me.

That's really bad. So I don't, I don't know if

that's got to be some sort of alcohol.

I. Mean that's.

I don't really regularly use it, so I don't I don't know.

Well, I mean, you know, you're cleaning out like a a small cut

or a wound and you dump it on there and it starts to bubble up

a little bit and you're like, I don't know.

Got way more experience with it than I do apparently.

I guess. I guess.

All right, so that's that's going to suffice for the the

small talk side conversation. Yikes.

We got we went into the deep end of smells here with the 60 year

old first aid kit that you experienced today.

So anyway, it's been, all that is to say, it's been a fun week.

Thank you again to any and all of you who were part of day camp

this past week, both the prep there's there's lots of decor

and planning and painting and prepping that goes into making

the week happen. And of course, during the week,

I mean, they were our kitchen crew was feeding 100 people a

day for four straight days for lunch.

It was some of those of you who housed the I Point staff or had

them over for a meal one of the evenings they were here.

Like it was just it, it really took the whole village of ERC

here to make day camp happen for these 100 little souls that were

here this week. And that was really cool.

Those of you that came out and had the idea to be in the parade

and came out and walked in the parade and then ultimately just

kind of had a chill evening at the pool last night, it was a

fun week. It was a fun week in church life

so. Yeah, I don't know if we often

times have weeks that full like every single day almost.

But you know, you, you come out of that maybe feeling fatigued,

but also feeling very filled. And so I I.

Get tired. Yeah, I definitely woke up

feeling both today. So that's that's not all bad.

Yeah. So what we also had, we had a

message yesterday from you continuing on in Acts and

talking about this unknown God, the kind of dichotomy between

the two, the 2 lines of thinking, the Stoics and the

Epicureans. So tell us just elevator speech

for yesterday. What, what, what, what we take

away and and we'll get into some some deeper conversation here on

the things too. Yeah.

So the the quick version of that is the Epicureans in the Stoics.

They are eerily related to what you might call kind of a two

party or a dual system, at least politically that we have today.

But I think that's also culturally and socially a much

more kind of liberal, what you might call quote UN quote,

forward thinking kind of methodology of how I live my

life and how I vote and do all these kinds of things versus a

more morally conservative and stoic approach to life.

So I'm, I'm very much working hard to be in control of my

emotions and like how I react to things and I'm just going to put

my head down and all that kind of stuff.

And, and I, I can't imagine that there's a lot of people.

Sure, certainly there are some, but I can't imagine that there's

a lot of people who fall squarely into one camp or the

other. We usually flex a little bit

back and forth in between those things.

And so really like, you know, the big point of yesterday was

like, OK, if we're going to talk about multiplying the church,

not just adding people from other churches to our, to our

building, but like actually multiplying the church through

finding and meeting and talking to people who don't yet know

Jesus. How best do we do that with

within these two like philosophies or these

worldviews? And so, you know, we, we dove

into it yesterday and I gave kind of like one talking point

for for each one of them. But there's certainly more

talking points in like how do we engage with people who kind of

fall into these two worlds or philosophies?

And so wanted to come back and make good on my promise

yesterday and at least address like one more thing from each

group. One of the main things you

brought up for me yesterday really was and, and you walked

that line of bringing in modern day politics, politics or even

like social, economic, political kind of considerations in with

these world views too. And there's definitely there's

absolutely whispers and shadows and and crossover from those

things. Of course we derive some of that

and to some degree it's necessary that there were these

seemingly opposing the sides of all of these social and

political issues going back to to millennia.

That that makes sense. The thing that you most pointed

you didn't speak highly of either one yesterday.

Like they're both wrong in in a vacuum on their own.

They're both missing and, and, and maybe wrongs, maybe wrongs

too strong a word that they're, they're wrong in that they're

lacking, that they don't have the whole picture.

If they think this worldview has it all put together and contains

all the pieces of, of a meaningful and, and moral and

righteous life, they both fall short.

Neither, neither 1 is really better than the other in that

sense of having the overall picture of a life that we're

called to. That's that's what screamed out

to me. You weren't, you weren't really

picking sides. And then we we get into the, the

unknown God and ultimately the the name that they should be

calling on or the name that they should know Jesus, which is kind

of where we finished yesterday. So that's what stuck out to me.

And we can get into a little more of the, yeah, just the

contrast between the two things and maybe the more specific

flaws that each side kind of has.

Absolutely. So to start with the Epicureans,

again, these are, as I pointed out yesterday, they're they're

more liberal, individually focused kind of people and

they're always kind of seeking out what is the good life for me

specifically, not necessarily everybody.

It's can be materialistic and you know, God, if he exists at

all, like he's not really that present.

And So what, what we tend to find is, again, there's a

couple, there's a couple issues that if you're proclaiming Jesus

to people who are built like this philosophically, you know,

of course, one of the issues that we talked about yesterday

with the Epicureans was, Oh my gosh, I just lost my, my thought

train. I was, I thought you were

getting into, I mean, if you're talking to the Epicureans, the

free thinkers, the biggest problem with sharing about our

God with them or about Jesus, they don't think they need a God

that that's or, or they are their own God, right?

Like that's first and foremost if you're if you're individual

focused and achieving your own best life.

That's a great phrase. You're you're pretty, you're

pretty headstrong with your fulfilment is dependent on

yourself worth what you're able to do and accomplish and achieve

and ultimately protect for yourself.

So a religion, Christianity specifically, that says, all

right, all your righteous works are filthy rags.

You can't earn your way to salvation.

And in fact, it's done and it's freely given.

And, and you don't even really have a part in that at all other

than to accept and receive this gift freely given Those things

don't gel. That's that's like oil and

water, right? Like those those two, there's

not even common ground between those two lines of thought,

right? Yeah, absolutely.

And so. Excuse me.

Yeah. So I mean, like that, that kind

of like, I can, I can fulfill my destiny.

I can. I will find the thing, whatever

that it is, I will find it. And ultimately, I will be happy

because I found it. And again, the argument I think

that anybody can make, especially those who have, like,

made their dreams happen and they're still miserable.

You're like, what happened? I thought this was going to make

you happy. And then, you know, all sorts of

issues follow with that depression.

And you know, I'm, I'm just bitter and angry because this

thing that I thought I needed so bad, it didn't do what I thought

it was going to do. And so like to make the argument

then that God is actually the thing you've been chasing the

entire time, who will fulfill you?

And you won't have this gap or this, this void in your life

anymore because you feel the peace and the fulfillment that

comes with having a relationship with the one true God, the

living God. That's going to be incredibly

helpful for you. So as far as like the thing I

didn't cover yesterday, I wanted to touch on, typically when

you're talking to a person like this, justice is a big issue.

So, you know, you might call them modern day.

Like we hear this phrase social justice warriors.

And so like, I'm going to get on the bandwagon of everything that

I feel like is unfair in society.

And so like, you get this. You get the sense that they have

a very strong sense of justice and right and wrong.

But like, what's your baseline for that?

What's your baseline for that? Tim Keller says something really

interesting. He said says if you don't

believe in God, you can hear that you can account for moral

feelings, but you cannot account for moral obligation.

What he's saying and what's true is that, like, you can feel a

certain way about, you know, these people should be treated

just like everybody else. Racism, of course, terrible,

right? All that kind of stuff.

But like, if there's no God, you can't make me obliged to that.

Because if there's no God, if there's no anchor for morality

other than we've just evolved into this, well, guess what?

I don't need to be obliged to what you're obliged to Morally,

I don't have to be. I can live my life any way I

want. I can murder, steal, kill, as

long as I don't get caught. I'm doing what?

My evolutionary biology, my brain, the chemicals in my

brain, which are apparently are random and not put there by any

meaningful way. I I can do whatever I want and

you can't tell me any different. You don't have the legs to stand

on to tell me I'm wrong. Right.

And that's what's also kind of within this freethinker

Epicurean worldview is, is making your own truth.

There's it's truth is very subjective.

There's not objective truth in this.

And and by that, that means, yes, you can have these moral

feelings, but they're largely informed that there isn't a

standard of truth or right and wrong in those morals.

They're largely informed by how you feel about a certain thing.

And that can be, I feel like we see this played out in in

people's lives all the time. If you may read something in in

the Bible that the Bible clearly calls out as wrong.

But the moment either you or someone close to you in your

life, the moment that issue enters into their life.

Not Jeff Bridges. What's Oh man, who wrote

respectable sins? I haven't read that one.

Darn it, there's a really good book called Respectable Sins and

How We How We Justify. That's a great premise.

Things in our life. Jerry Bridges, not Jeff Bridges,

of course. Maybe what do we get if Jeff

Bridges wrote it? But.

Awesome if he was an actor and did that.

Right, Jerry Bridges like this book about sins that we justify

and that's that's one of the ways that we do it.

We kind of make allowance if there's someone close to us or

someone that we value, we kind of like poo poo the sin, right?

Or we we kind of we might be tempted to maybe the Bible isn't

maybe it doesn't really mean that maybe the Bible isn't

really calling out that thing as a sin because I don't want I

don't want this person to have to bear the wrath of this sin

struggle in your life. And then and then our morals get

informed by our emotions rather than rather than what what

Keller says is a moral obligation.

That moral obligation would then be to a righteous authority,

right? Like that's that authority that

sets those moral bounds in this Epicurean view, those moral

bounds are set by my emotions and my feelings or what I

perceive to be true. That the later part of of this

quote that you have for Keller, if your premise that there is no

God leads you to a conclusion, you can't live with a lack of

moral obligation to do anything, then you have to change the

premise. And, and that's the if then

there, if the conclusion or even the justice that you're seeking

that that you're trying to bring about, if that end game

ultimately isn't what you want to be, well, then you're going

back to square 1 and you're resetting the bounds of how you

want this to turn out. And that's, that's subjective

truth. That's subjective justice.

Actually, it's, it's not, there's there's nothing set in

concrete morals in that. If it's fully dependent on on

self and and this free thinker, make your own truth, grab your

own like grab your life by the horn sort of sort of attitude

like it's, it's not there and it and it ends up leaving you with

ultimately, I think, immoral bounds for truth.

There's no consistency in that. It's it's all swayed by feelings

and emotions which any of you that are human understand that

those those can change day-to-day like so yeah, not a

whole lot of solid foundation there for the morality, the

justice thinking in in this Epicurean worldview.

And that's where I think, you know, the the Christian has an

opportunity to walk into that conversation and, you know,

create that sense of like, OK, well, you create that sense of

like the logical dissonance, you might say.

So like, it's what you believe over here doesn't actually jive

with what you believe over here. And those things butt up against

each other so hard that like you can't actually maintain those

both those standards simultaneously.

And so one of them has to go, or like Keller says, you have to

change the entire premise, which maybe there is and maybe there

there is then a God who has a moral anchor that we are all

bound to. Because if it's not a God who

has a moral anchor that we're all bound to, then it becomes a

power play. So whoever has the most power in

my culture and my society, they get to determine what's morally

right and wrong because that's the culture.

And so then we're we've got shifting morals constantly and

it's impossible to keep up with. And a moral that shifts isn't

morality at all, I I don't think.

So bring it back to our listeners, our, our church here.

What do we, what do you do? How do you, how do you put

yourself in Paul's shoes, in the apostles shoes here?

How do you bring Jesus into the life of someone who has quote UN

quote everything like or who who quote UN quote doesn't need him?

Yeah. What, what, what do we, what do

we do with that? How do we enter into Because

that's a pretty assaultive conversation, right?

Like, you think you've got it all figured out.

Your first talking point is really, you don't have it all

figured out. You need Jesus.

Most people don't want to hear that, right?

Well, because you just, you just challenged literally my entire

way of life. You're, you're in some ways

you're, you're almost saying like everything that I've been

striving for is for not, but, but it's, it's kind of true

because, you know, again, going back to the idea of Ecclesiastes

or anybody, and you can read 1000 stories online of people

who got exactly what they wanted and ended up more miserable than

when they started. So let's take a simple example.

Somebody wins the lottery and they've been, they've been

praying and begging for this their whole life because their

whole life, maybe they felt like the greatest stressor of their

life was I don't, I don't have enough money, never have enough

of that. And so, you know, you win the

lottery and then all of a sudden, like, man, your life is

way more complex and you actually feel like it's worse.

And, and that's, that's a reality that a lot of people

have dealt with over the last century.

And they end up broke and destitute and angry and bitter.

And so how do you speak into that?

Well, man, there's an opportunity to say there is a

peace that transcends all understanding, you know, and,

and when I've had opportunities to speak to people who are like

this, often times I share stories.

So, and I won't leave any specific names here, but I've

known several people who have cancer and it's not something

that the doctors are willing to work on anymore And they don't

want to die, but they're, they're also, they've got a

piece and they've got a joy in their life that actually exceeds

my own. And I don't even have that

problem hanging over my head. And it's like, wow.

So you ask them, how did you get here?

Like what, what, what did what happened in your life that you

can have peace even in the midst of the worst thing that can

possibly ever happen to you, which is like your untimely

death. And the answer is always the

same. It's always, well, I know who my

God is, I know exactly who he is and I know he loves me and I

know he's going to take care of me whether it's now or in the

next life, he is going to take care of me.

And there is nothing that can take away that level of peace

and joy. Everything else in the world can

be taken away from you, a spouse, a, a, a child, your job,

your, your house, all these things can be taken away.

And if they're not taken away before you die, they will be

taken away when you die. And so I mean like, so to the

extent I, I, I need to, to worship and love something, I

need to have my faith in something that can never ever be

taken away. Life and death can't take it

away. It can just, it can never go

away because that is the one eternal thing.

Because even if I think somehow I'm eternal, well, what's the

point of my eternity without love?

What's the point of what's the point of living forever without

the thing that I need the most, which is love and care and to be

seen and to be known and to be able to give those things back

to, to somebody who I care about.

So I, I absolutely think we have to, we have to speak into that

philosophy and into that worldview with there's something

greater than anything you could achieve here.

And I and I think it's important, though, to frame it

not as in opposition to the life that again, I will use they in

quote that that that this person they have built for themselves.

I I think people maybe receive that as a well.

If I if I say that I got to rely on God, then all this really

means nothing. No, like it it maybe he wants

you to have these things like God has been here all along and

I don't I don't want to take the punchline away, but has been

living as an unknown God like has has has been there in the

background and you just don't know it.

You don't, you don't know how he's orchestrated these things

in your life into in talking about death and the things that,

that the peace that those people that you've talked with or, or

had experience with with cancer. Have you had a quote yesterday?

You said the God who brought Jesus Christ back from the dead

is the God who's got your back. I think for people who, who find

themselves in this Epicurean like worldview, presenting God

as an ally is, is crucial because they will hear him as a

threat. They, they, they will hear it as

a choosing between the life they have and the life with God,

which in some instances I'm not, I'm not saying in some instances

it will be a a rich man scenario with Jesus of sell all you have

and follow me like that. That will need to happen for

some people like this. They will need to leave the life

that they've built behind in order to follow God.

I also think there's some of them that that can probably do

both and and I've just been living in kind of this unknown.

They they haven't known God or they haven't known that the life

they've built should be reliant on God.

I've I've people in my life who have, I think really similar

morals to me, but they're not believers.

So and like they're not, they're not following the Bible, they're

not following God's word for their moral compass, but yet

their morals are, are pretty much In Sync with mine.

So there's an element there where they're, where they're

influenced by, there's that natural revelation of the truth

of God and, and kind of the order of creation, the ways, the

way that God has orchestrated things to be.

They're just, he's in that unknown realm.

They, they don't know the source of it.

They don't know the, the object of their moral obligation.

He's he's an unknown God to them.

Well, I couldn't have said it better.

That's awesome. So that's, that's, that's a

great way to, you know, again, that's a great strategy to enter

into some of those conversations.

But the next group that we talked about yesterday was the

Stoics. And again, I, I mentioned it

yesterday, but more particularly in the Midwest, in the United

States, you'll find a greater sense of stoicism being played

out in our daily philosophies, even if we wouldn't call it

that. And again, that's because we're

we're self reliant in terms of like, I can grind this thing

out. It's not.

It's not. I'll just endure it.

Yeah, I'll endure it. I'll keep my head down.

And you know, the one thing I don't want to do is I don't want

to lose control of my emotions. Like I'm just going to accept

fate as it is and keep pushing forward hard.

Now, there's a lot of really great things about that.

Like I am all for the person who works ridiculously hard.

You know, there's so many great stories of people who they start

from almost nothing and through just ridiculous hard work and

aspiration. And you know, they, they make

something great, at least by the world standards.

They make something great out of themselves despite their their

beginning circumstances. And you look and they say, yeah,

they worked really hard, good for them.

And we like that. And so again, on the surface,

there's nothing wrong with that. However, it becomes, it becomes

not, how do I say that it's no longer beneficial when I have to

turn so far inward that I can't honestly experience my feelings?

You know, that's when it becomes a problem.

So like, you know, you, you, you get the person at the funeral

who just lost their spouse or a child and they are just, well,

they're stoic. And I'm not saying that

everybody has to be on the floor wailing and crying and kicking

and screaming. I'm not saying that at all.

But like to allow yourself to actually experience the feelings

that God has given you. That's an important thing.

One of the great things, I didn't bring it up yesterday,

but one of the great things that like the Stoic philosophy will

tell you is when you kiss your child good bed at night, quietly

whisper to yourself, tomorrow you die.

Why do we do that? So that way we don't grow too

attached. I'm, it's, it's what we also,

it's what we also psychologists call anticipatory grieving.

So if I can anticipate something difficult in my life, I can

start dealing with it now. So that way when it inevitably

happens, I will be strong, I will be Stoic, right?

And So what that does is it removes you emotionally from

really deep, intimate, meaningful relationships.

And it removes you from the deepest level of love, which is

I can be hurt by you. Well, the, the person who

exercises some level of stoicism in their life, what they're

doing is they're always like, they're, they're always kind of

like one step away. You can't ever fully grab them

because they won't make themselves emotionally available

because they don't want to deal with the hurt.

Let me put it to you this way. This is a really mild example.

If you lose a pet and you say I would love to have a dog again

or I'd love to have a cat again, but I refuse to go through that,

what are you doing? You're saying I want to love

big, I want to give that love away, but I know inevitably I'm

going to hurt somewhere along the way and I refuse to allow

myself to feel that. And so that's that stoicism,

like playing out in a pretty mild way, but that's what that

is. Yep, not ready to be vulnerable

in in a situation that either your experience or someone

else's experience has told you is is going to end up with you

vulnerable might not end up with you hurt, but is going to end up

with you vulnerable to being hurt.

And and in this, in this stoicism, it's kind of avoid

that at all cost. Avoid the hurt.

Keep self-sufficiency or inner peace amidst external turmoil.

And that's also wrong in in the biblical worldview.

We've we've said it before, I keep going back to it.

Hopefully you've got it memorized by now.

But John, John 1633 in this world, you will have trouble it.

That's that's what Jesus said to his disciples.

He did not say I'm hoping to protect you from all trouble in

this world that that's not what happened.

He promised you will have trouble, but take heart before I

have overcome the world that that's so that's that peace.

Ultimately the, the God who's got your back sort of thing that

you said yesterday, that's the peace that we're supposed to

find amidst this adversity. So that's where this stoicism

viewpoint also kind of breaks down because there's there's not

reliance, there's not room for reliance on God.

And I think part of that, this is going to sound, this is going

to sound a little weird. There's not room to be let down

by God. No, don't, no, don't hear what

I'm not saying. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that

God lets us down. But in moments or, or seasons

where illness is not healed, where, where, where cancer is

not removed, where, where death happens or where depression

happens, that feels like where's God, right?

Like that, That feels like, why is God letting me through this?

So that's the, that's the vulnerability.

I think in this or or at least the link that's missing, you're

not allowing yourself to be in deep relationship with God.

Those of you that are that are in a romantic relationship or

even doesn't have to be romantic a a close emotional

relationship, children, family, friends.

Otherwise you will be let down. You have been let down in in

that relationship before. You have been.

Your relationship has been violated in some way by that

person because they're sinful, because you're both sinful and

and there's that problem now. Don't hear what I'm not saying.

I'm not suggesting that God is actively letting us down like

another human would, but as as in James, these these trials and

temptations are for the testing and and proving of the endurance

of your faith, right? Like that's what we're made to

go through these things to hone, to train our awareness, our need

for this reliance on God. And this stoicism view is just

Nope, don't even don't even expose yourself to that.

Don't don't bring on these, these trials or or this these

things that will develop perseverance.

Just just grin and bear it. You don't.

Don't let yourself be exposed to these things that that could let

you down or feel like they're letting you down.

Don't leave room for faith. Don't leave room for the What

if? Yeah.

And so I mean, like, you know, where does the Bible clearly,

clearly, clearly disagree with this?

And how then do we make the argument to the person who's

potentially emotionally unavailable because they refuse

to make themselves vulnerable? Well, if and again, the, the

person who exercises some level of stoicism, at least on the

surface, they may be closer to God.

You're talking about like you have people with similar,

similar morals that you that don't, that don't know this God.

Well, you know, to that person who's who's struggling with this

end of things, who has to be in control at all times.

Well, we look at we look at the life of Jesus and it's

ridiculous. He got incredibly angry.

I mean, angry enough to flip tables and make a whip.

But actually, the emotion that the New Testament writers write

about Jesus, more than any other emotion, is the fact that he was

sad. He wept.

He. Grieved often.

And so I mean, you know, God himself grieves and he allows

himself to feel the weight of disappointment.

He he allows himself to feel the weight of being turned away when

he has given everything to that person.

I mean, look at look at Jesus's best friends.

He warned him. He's like, hey, guys, like I'm,

I'm going to go through some some pretty bad stuff here.

I want you with me. All the while knowing that they

were going to run. Now for the Stoic, you know what

you do? If you kind of knew that your

friends were going to ditch you at your worst moment in life,

you wouldn't be friends with him in the 1st place.

You'd be like, I'm not going to put myself through that.

I'll just do it alone. But had Jesus done his mission

alone, we wouldn't be talking about him today because He

wouldn't have let anybody in. And so the fact that he did let

people and the fact that he knew they were going to mess up and

and he's going to love them anyway, man, that's a, that's a

level of vulnerability that like we need to exercise as well.

Because yes, we're going to be on the wrong end of that

sometimes. We're going to get hurt

sometimes. But to make yourself emotionally

unavailable is to not be available to God.

And that's a major problem. Yeah, and this yeah.

So it's interesting. That's his his nose.

Well, most noted, most noted emotional reaction in the New

Testament. I don't know if when I when I

was coming up through confirmation and I've even heard

about it joked, joked about by Conferman since then.

If you have to do like a memory verse or, or, or explain a, a

life verse or something, there's always one student in every

class that is just like what I'm doing.

Jesus wept shortest verse in the Bible.

Jesus wept. That's my memory verse, right?

And it's always it's John 1135. If it's his reaction to Lazarus

being dead. But what you just kind of

outlined the reaction from the teacher or I've always seen even

some students that I've been teaching and interacting with is

if if you can make a meaningful lesson, if you can explain why

that's meaningful for your faith and for your relationship with

Jesus, sure, you can use Jesus wept.

So to have that explanation from you on how that breaks down

vulnerability, breaks down this stoicism in this example of

Jesus. Yeah, Jesus, that is a

significant verse. That is a significant feeling

and reaction and an appropriate emotion from him in caring about

the relationships that he has in this example from Jesus.

Absolutely. I thank you for saying that

because it just. Streamed into my consciousness.

But I think again, that that puts a very nice stamp on, on

this argument for, you know, Christianity in the midst of no,

I need to, I need to have self-control and I need to, I, I

need to not, I need to not be potentially hurt, you know,

like, so I thank you for saying that.

That's awesome. So there's a couple more just

kind of takeaways from this. You were largely in Acts 17

yesterday. The second-half of it, Paul

tells the people there or he maybe observes that they are

very religious. What what is this conclusion

that he's making the start of this passage is he noticed he

was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols,

right? That's verse 16 in chapter 17.

So is it from that that he concludes they're very

religious. What is what are the signs that

and and what does it mean? What does he mean?

Is that a compliment? Is it just a What are the bounds

of being religious? Yeah.

And so, I mean, in in his world, you know, the the very religious

thing, he's not saying that. I mean, he's kind of saying it

tongue in cheek because they're very religious for all the wrong

reasons. But what he's getting at in the

original context is, you know, everything that they do is

because I'm worshipping this God or honoring that God.

So like there's this level of self justification of saying,

well, I can do this because it honors this random God of this

thing. So I can go cheat on my spouse

on Thursday night when they're having the big festival at this

thing because, well, I'm honoring the God, you know,

'cause the sake of this God says, oh, I need to use my body

for pleasure and so on and so forth.

And so there's this reverse justification of things and it's

really kind of sad. So he's not wrong when he says

they're very religious because they're going to, they're going

to point to every decision they make being honoring to one God

or another. So like, yeah, you can be a

quote UN quote very religious person.

Even modern day, if you are worshipping or you have a God in

mind who always justifies your actions, then you're very

religious. So let's say you're the, let's

say you're the person who's like, well, I don't drink, smoke

or play cards or date girls who do you know?

And so like, oh, yes, he's very religious.

Look at how morally upstanding he is.

And he refuses to do this and this and this and this.

Wow. He's very religious person.

Yeah. But do you know God?

But do you know God? Because if you, if you know the

real God of the universe, the real God of the Bible, you know

that he is not a God of micromanagement, nor is he a God

who he expects perfect moral behavior, but only knowing that

Jesus is going to be, he's going to do that expectation on our

behalf, right. And so, you know, I, I look at

the, the quote, UN quote, very religious people and it's kind

of a cliche in the church world. Like I don't want religion.

I want relationship. As cliche as that is, it's still

true. Yeah, like it makes sense.

And did you say yesterday or is it, it might be something else

in the recesses of my brain. Did you say every sin is a

replacement for God? Did you say that yesterday?

So there's Oh my gosh, I don't have the quote directly in front

of me. Hold on, maybe I do.

Because that's right in line with Paul also talks about to

these people about the objects of their worship in this

passage. And I've long been of the train

of thought that like every, every sin, every sin we commit

violates the first commandment that you should, you shall have

no other gods before me. So like kind of in the same vein

of it, every, every sin is a replacement for God.

Every sin is making a God. And I think that's what Paul's

kind of talking about being very religious.

They have, they have a reason, they have a justification, they

have a God, an idol for everything, for every action

that is allowing that is justifying, that is permitting

them to take these actions, right?

And I think that's what we do. That's what we do with our sin,

right? It's for, well, yes, this is,

this is, this is gluttony, but I enjoy it.

It's it's, it's, it's bounty from above that God that God

wants me to that God wants me to partake in or rather than

engaging in a spirit of self-control, right?

Like we, we we do it with all the things, right?

No, it's true. The the quote that I gave is

actually from Simone Weil. I think I'm saying that

correctly. And the idea?

Well the quote is every sin is an attempt to fill a void.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, is an attempt to fill a

void. And that's, man, I think she

kind of nailed it on the head. So, you know, I don't know.

Sure, same thing 'cause we're, we haven't, we haven't put God

in that place. We, we haven't looked to God for

our fulfillment in all things. So if we don't have our eyes on

that or or he's in the status still of unknown God, then yes,

that sin that we're engaging in is is a futile attempt to meet

that need in a in a sinful way. Right.

So I think, you know, for the for the very religious person

today, that doesn't necessarily have to carry a negative

connotation. If my religion is built on the

premise of what God says is most important, I need to put him

above all things. I need to put him in first place

and then I need to love my neighbor.

Well, I need to love my neighbor the way I love myself, you know,

and of course, like our closest neighbor, quote UN quote, is

going are going to be the people in our very home.

So how do I start there? Well, we talked about this

recently. The, the, the closer I am to

God, the better husband I'm going to be, you know, and, and

you can go back and listen to that whole talk, but it's true.

It's just absolutely true. And so if I'm very religious in

that sense of like, I love God, I'm really putting him first,

and then I'm really living a life of service for my neighbor,

then yes, you could call me very religious if I'm doing that

well, or you could say in a negative context, Well, he's

very religious because they withhold themselves from, you

know, everything that everybody else is doing.

And so look, they're uppity and religious.

And so that's the more negative context of of what that might

sound like. Yeah, so that's that's where he

kind of starts with assessing their situation.

You are very religious. You have these objects of your

worship. You got a reason for everything.

And then he gets to this, this statue to an unknown God.

And I've always heard, I've always heard this passage after,

after going through all of these things, like you, you have a God

for everything. I've always kind of thought of

this unknown God as being just like the catch all for

everything else. Like like this, we're not even

sure what we're going to need a God for.

So we're just, we're just going to cover all our bases and any

of our unknowns are captured in this one entity.

Like we just we've got a God for that, right?

Like there's there's an easy button for that, right?

But it draws back to what you your your main thrust 2 weeks

ago. Why are we, why are you doing

what you're doing? Like why are you doing this?

And if in fact, God is unknown, any aspect of him is unknown.

Again, you pull that question in and all of a sudden, like, man,

it doesn't really seem to make sense because what box am I

checking? What am, what am I trying to do

here? I'm trying to please something

that I can't even put my hands on that I can't know, that I

can't understand. Like, no, that's not that

helpful, man. Like so going back to that

question, I just, I love that question.

I think it's so good and it's so pointed and it, gosh, we need to

ask ourselves that all the time. We do and you and you can almost

feel the frustration from Paul here like you guys are you

people are very religious. You have objects of worship like

you're so close, you get it. And I think even this unknown

God is they understand that there's something greater than

them that. Is.

Unknowable in the sense that you, you can't contain them or,

or, or put them in a box or fully understand them and, and

it is superior to them. So like, and they, and they have

all these religious attitudes. They have all these objects of

work. And he's like, you guys, you

guys are so close, but you're, you're putting your faith in the

wrong things. You're put you're putting your

faith in the things that fade away and ultimately the the

danger for us now who know who know the true God, who know the

living God. And there's there's words of

caution. Hear from Paul to like, do you

acknowledge the creator of all things?

Do do you understand that there is something greater than you

and you maybe even call him by name, but do you really know him

or, or is he still at arm's reach?

Is it still this stoic lack of vulnerability or or the OR the

Epicurean? I'm going to do it myself adage.

I don't need God for that attitude.

In that way. Even I think he's cautioning

even some of them that maybe acknowledge the one true God,

but he's he's kept a distant, he's kept afar, he's kept like

break glass in case of emergencies sort of thing, which

I think is but, but I think that's really where to go back

to How do you how do you talk to these people about Jesus sort of

thing with the Epicurean, the free thinker, the the one who

has everything figured out for themselves.

When, when are they most vulnerable?

When are they most ready to let God into their life?

When that all falls apart, right?

When they don't have answers in and of themselves and their own

strength, then they're ready for God.

It's that it's that emergency God sort of scenario, right?

Oh, my goodness, if you don't use that sometime in the near

future, I'm going to because that is that is so spot on.

That is maybe the best little illustration I've I've ever

heard for like, hey, he's unknown until I need him and

then I'm going to seek him out with all intensity.

Yeah. Isn't that what most of us do

all of the time? My goodness.

But the, the gospel makes it very clear that God, well, and

we've said it before, God wrote himself into our story quite

literally by, by becoming a man in the person of Jesus Christ.

And so, yeah, to the extent that God can make himself known in a

way that we can actually wrap our heads and actually wrap our

arms around, Yep, he has made himself known.

And in his revelation, in his word, we have numerous, numerous

eyewitness accounts of him making himself fully known,

fully available. And so man God, for, for

anybody, God is fully available. He's not distant, He's right

there. And even though Jesus doesn't

walk with us today, He has given us his Holy Spirit, which for

anybody who's experienced peace in a situation where they have

no right to have any peace whatsoever by any human

standard, man God is dwelling in you and you.

He knows you and you know him in such an intimate way, in a way

more intimate way than I can even know my wife or my kids.

Like way more intimate. So like, I, I don't know, man, I

think, I think he's right there. Yeah, Yeah, it's a good word.

So just wrapping up those couple of things that the Epicurean

sort of worldview, I really think the way to approach that

person in your life who's very headstrong, who's very

independent, who doesn't seemingly have a need for God,

portraying God, portraying Jesus as an ally, as an enhancement to

their life, not not an enemy. Because I think those words can

be heard as assaultive as as you need to replace your life with

God. That may again, that may be true

in some aspects. They they may need to do that

with some aspects of their life, especially the sinful aspects of

their life. That has to happen.

There needs to be repentance and and reconciliation there with

God. But for the the Stoic, it's

important to let God in, right? It's it's important to be

available emotionally, relationally with God in that

example of Jesus, to allow yourself to experience hurt that

only God can heal to to be in a place that that only love can

win, right? That's that's ultimately the

design that God has for our relationship and it's really how

he engages in relationship with us.

We we've so rebelled, we have so broken sin has twisted and

distorted and destroyed relationship with him in a way

that only he can heal in a way that only Jesus can reconcile

for us. So, so those are the ways that I

think we approach these kind of two different groups of people

in in just it's OK to feel for the stoics.

We see this example in Jesus and and it's it's the way that we're

supposed to be, to feel these extremes of love and

disappointment. One of the interesting things

I've heard is that when you become a Christian, if, if

you're struggling with like, you know, controlling emotions in

the wrong sense of like, I don't let them out.

I don't, I don't let that happen to me.

I'm in control. The ironic thing about becoming

a Christian and becoming close to God is you get to become more

like him. Therefore you will actually feel

more broken hearted. And some people don't want that

heat. But I'm.

Very uncomfortable. I'm telling you, man, like the

some of the worst days I've ever had because emotions were

overwhelming are also the best days of my life because they

taught me so much and and I and I had an experience to be able

to love and care for somebody and in a way that I could have

never done had we not experienced the worst emotional

things that can happen to a human.

So. That's where we're going to

leave it for today. Thanks for hanging out for

Leftovers and continuing the conversation here.

We went a little long, but that's right.

Enjoyed chatting with you and following up the message from

yesterday. If you have any thoughts on the

the smells conversation at the beginning of the episode, feel

free to drop your comments in the show below or on the the

Facebook post on that comment feed there you had you had this

really good quote that we just didn't work into our discussion

today. I'm just going to let you close

out the show with it and we're just going to let it sit.

So have a blessed week. Church.

Here's here's the final thoughts.

Evelyn Underhill says if God were small enough to be

understood, he wouldn't be big enough to worship.