Don't just think it or pray about it, tell people

Hello everyone! It's another week of TUC Talks, Terrible Uniting Church Talks.

Um, an inspirational name for us all.

Um today I have the absolute pleasure of having one of our elders, Phil Rogers, with me today.

Hello, Phil.

Hi Richard, hi everybody.

And we are recording this from Sunday the 16th of August.

And it is a really interesting little passage.

It's the start of 2 Timothy.

2 Timothy 1, 1 to 14.

So, Phil, you've read 2 Timothy 1, 1 to 14.

What did you think?

Well, my first thought was look, uh, whenever I look at one of the epistles of Paul and it's got the salutation there, I usually when I'm on my own, I skip that bit and get onto you know the heart of the letter, you know.

But because um this was read out in chess yesterday, it made me realise that Paul here is showing a much softer, gentler side to himself than he normally portrays.

He normally is a bit of a grumpy character, isn't he?

But here, you're right.

He's those words of I remember you and I remember your tears when we parted.

Yeah.

I know Paul didn't cry when they parted, though.

No, it was your tears, not my tears.

You didn't mean anything to me, but you I could see you were upset.

Yeah, it is.

It was.

It was a nicer side to sort of acknowledge and see from time to time.

Yes.

Yeah, it is.

I was saying just before we started, one of the interesting things for me is when I started the series on one and two Timothy, I mentioned that there's a debate about the authorship of One and Two Timothy.

Some some scholars would question whether it was Paul that wrote it.

But someone came to me and said really quite strongly, how could we consider that it's anyone but Paul when there in 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy there is so much personal stuff that is mentioned.

Like although in the salutations, the greetings at the start, it there it's a very warm personal statement.

Yeah, you know, and he and Paul here is is talking to someone who he knows and loves.

Yeah, it's not a generic greeting, is it?

It's it's meant for Timothy and it's heartfelt.

Yeah.

So, you know, I I suppose through this series I have warmed more and more to saying, well, I'm gonna back the scholars that think it's Paul.

Right.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it was just a nice counterweight to um some of the more cranky sort of um passages that we read from Paul.

Yes, yes.

And so today with with 2 Timothy 1, 1 to 14, it sort of goes through, it does that starting greetings, and then there is a section.

The way that I broke it up, there was a section where Paul was talking about his prayers for Timothy, you know, how he was praying for him.

Then there was a section about him encouraging Timothy, and then there was there was sort of that towards the end, there was a bit about let us hang on to this faith because Christ has given us the pathway to eternity and and hold on to that.

Those were sort of really important parts.

And he also says within this, don't be ashamed of your faith.

Yes, I picked that up when he was speaking, and I've done a little bit of a reading around it this morning.

I wonder why it is.

Um in our culture, particularly, everybody has a very strong opinion that they're very happy to share with you on their football team, their politics, current affairs, the latest fad diet or whatever it might be.

Yeah, they're very happy to share those ideas with you, but they're a little bit reluctant to say what they believe as far as uh Christianity is concerned.

True.

Although the other interesting thing, on Saturday, we were doing our mission planning.

So the day before worship, we were doing our mission planning with our elders and church counselors and staff here.

And Phil, you brought the McCrindle data.

McCrindle is a social researcher who's a Christian who does church-based research.

And he was presenting that culture is shifting and that people are more open to talking about faith now than they have been for a long time.

And I actually can understand that because that was quite recent, sort of 2025 research against the backdrop of everything that's been happening in the world over the last 18 months, two years.

And I think it I think it has created questions for people.

They are starting starting to think about, you know, what's going on, what is the purpose?

Where's the meaning?

Where is the hope in life?

And yeah, so I was surprised as well as you for that Merrill Crendle report to say that have speak to people about Jesus.

They're probably more receptive than you think they're gonna be, more receptive than they have been in the past, anyway.

Really important.

And for me, that was enlightening, but also challenging because how do I in the sermon I talked about how historically I have been, like much of society, a little bit wary to go too hard about my faith in conversations with people.

But it's really the McCrindle data and this passage, they're encouraging me to not try and bludgeon someone into Christianity, but to be honest and clear about this is stuff that I believe.

Not to be embarrassed about it, not to be ashamed.

That's right.

And and that means just a genuineness of yes, I pray about this stuff and I can pray for you.

I wonder whether there's a certain reluctance, I'm speaking personally here, I suppose, to um discuss my my uh religious, my Christian beliefs and Jesus and all the rest of it.

Because of I feel a little bit ashamed, certainly not of Jesus and God, but maybe a little bit ashamed of what the church has done in his name.

And it's that that perhaps puts me off.

I mean, there's been so much negative publicity about the church, particularly over the last five or ten years, and that you know that that perhaps holds me back a little bit.

It's not Jesus that's holding me back, it's I feel a little bit responsible for church history.

Yes, but I actually think one you are correct.

That I think is awareness of some people, but I think it's now becoming more and more that if I can show an honest and engaged conversation about faith with someone that doesn't have that baggage, I can actually reform some of that baggage.

Yeah, I totally agree.

100% agree.

Um, that people are much more receptive, and I think it depends on the nature of the um engagement, doesn't it?

I mean, it's probably right wise to remain silent rather than have a belligent, aggressive conversation with somebody.

Yes.

It's when is knowing when to back off, but we should not be afraid to initiate the the discussion.

Not at all.

And and I actually think that it's been really interesting for me over the last couple of weeks, there have been a few people turn up to church that have been invited by someone, but interestingly, they've been invited by someone who's actually not so we had a we had some people at 10 o'clock service that were invited by a person that goes to the eight o'clock congregation.

Oh right.

And and they said, Look, you know, this person that goes to your eight o'clock congregation told me and invited me to your ten, but that's not their style.

I found that really lovely.

Like it was this, they were having a beautiful conversation with you and sort of saying, Well, look, go to that part of it.

Yeah, and look, we don't have to go up to people in the street and ask them ask them whether they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, which is perhaps the um the way it was done hundreds of years ago.

But it's very easy.

People say, Oh, what did you do at the weekend?

It's so easy to drop into the conversation.

Oh, well, I went to church, of course, yesterday morning, and there the door's slightly ajar already.

Yes, yeah, and like particularly if we talk about some of the things that we've done in recent times, like the coffee and cars after 10 o'clock, yeah, is you know, we well come to church and we're gonna have some cars at the end of the service, and you can have a pizza and a coffee and we can have a look at them.

Yeah.

Is a lovely invitational moment.

Yeah.

And this Sunday we're having um the collection for the Mission Aviation Fellowship.

Again, that's something to drop into the conversation that our church has got behind this idea, sort of thing.

It's really useful for those people in remote areas.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's so easy to do, but yeah, there has been a reluctance.

And if they're addicted to caffeine, let's face it, the eight o'clock congregation come, they have morning tea here, and then they head off to Erin Affair, most of them, and have morning.

Well, I don't know how many of them I've never gone.

I'm leading the 10 o'clock, but I think there's a there's a troop of people go off, and I don't think they're they're selective about it.

I think they can sort of anyone can go with them, but or I I haven't I I know where they go.

I think they go to a Roma's, and I have her conversations, you know, they sit there in a little body of church people, and before you know it, somebody off the next table has joined in the conversation who doesn't go to church.

So that's another sort of way of sort of um introducing gently the idea of Jesus.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so that's one of the things I really one of the things that I wanted to emphasize on Sunday was telling people what we do sometimes when we it's because Paul here is saying, I am praying for you, Timothy, night and day.

I I am bringing you to prayer.

And I know in our congregation there are people that are praying constantly for family members or for people and situations that they do have a strong emphasis of praying for some people.

And I actually think it's helpful to add to that telling the person that you're praying for them.

That's right.

I think it's very, yeah, it's very it makes it very personal and very, you know, you feel honored that somebody is praying for you.

And you sort of, yeah, it's a good thing that they're doing and grateful for it.

Yeah, and it's not I like it's not a part of the prayer.

The prayer is actually negotiating with God about that person, yeah.

But it's telling them, I see you as important enough that I am lifting you to God.

Yeah.

And and I think that's a really important thing to say and do.

Yeah, I have said it to non-Christian members of my family who've they've gone through really tough times in the last couple of years.

And, you know, I've said, look, you know, I'm we're pr I'm praying for you, sort of thing.

Yes.

It's it's nice to be able to say that.

And look, some of my family I'm some of my family members that don't go to church, um, in in a couple of their moments, because they know I'm a Christian and it's pretty hard to dodge it when your job is a minister, um, they will say, Would you pray for me?

Yeah.

And and I think that that is so powerful.

They're acknowledging faith, but they just can't step into a church for themselves.

But yeah, can you pray for me?

Yeah, I definitely will.

Yeah, I think that opportunity is certainly there.

And you've talked about people in this church praying for people.

That also relates again to something.

I think it was in verse six where he talks about fan the flame of your gift, don't let it become an amber.

People have the gift of prayer, and yes, you know, you know, they should use it.

It's a wonderful thing to do.

For me, I if I'd have had longer to play with the sermon, I would have connected that back to where we did that spiritual gift stuff, you know, two months ago, three months ago.

We we talked about our spiritual gifts and we did a bit of a look at it.

And I like that Paul's basically saying, Oh, look, I remember praying for you.

I know that you've got a spiritual gift here.

Yes.

Make sure that you keep that spiritual gift alive.

Yeah, I like the way he talked about it um being an ember rather than a flame.

It's like as if we've all been given this gift when we became Christians or a gift, um, and it's on that low pilot light all the time.

So it's always there.

But Paul's encouraging us to turn the gas up, sort of thing, and turn that little pilot light into a flame.

You know, use it.

I know we're getting towards the end of winter, but that theme of an ember, like at our place, our primary heating is a wood fire that we have in our lounge room.

And as you go to bed at night, you just turn the fire right down.

And when I get up first thing in the morning, quite often there is just a couple of embers there.

And if I throw just a little bit of kindling on it, and it will burst into flame again and it will heat the whole house again for the morning.

It's that beautiful idea.

And going back to that uh theme that we had that you preached on a few months ago, and we had a little workshop on it, um, discovering your gifts, and again relating to what we did over the weekend at the elders' retreat.

Um, most churches spend a lot of the time and attention and energy in attracting new people to the church, and less time perhaps actually fanning the flames of the people who already within the church, if you know what I mean.

God has already placed these people in our church, they already have a gift.

Um, we should be sort of helping them to fan that the flames of those gifts, whereas we we spend a lot of time trying to attract new people.

I wonder whether we're you know, inadvertently overlooking those that already are here.

It's a really interesting one.

Uh yes, we do need to do some of that fanning the flame.

And and I think that probably comes to that next part of Paul's message because he actually encouraged he's he's encouraging Timothy here and reminding him of his faith and encouraging him in his faith, and he's encouraging him in his work that he's doing, the ministry of reforming this church that he's a part of.

And I think that the fanning the people's faith into flame can actually be encouraging them in the gift that they have and encourage them in the faith that they hold on to.

Yeah.

Like it's a really important part.

And we talk about it as the church should do this, which the church should do, but each and every one of us as individuals is the church.

Yeah.

And so we should actually be encouraging one another in their gifts, encouraging one another in their ministry.

There's an element of human nature here, isn't there?

Um we're we very often complain when we get poor service, but we very rarely sort of write and say something.

Thank you, that was really well done.

That service was top.

Yes.

And I wonder if it was the same in the church.

We have sort of just taking one example, we have wonderful people who have that hospitality gift and work.

They're always in the kitchen, they're always making cakes and slices, and they're just beautiful people.

Um, it's a reminder to myself that I should speak to them more often and say, Thanks, you're really doing a fantastic job.

Oh, yes, we should.

And like those people that do the morning teas, or they they put a lot of effort into that.

Yeah, and it's not just those people, it's other people who have the gift of prayer and the pastoral gifts and all the rest of it.

Perhaps we should just be a little bit more encouraging of those people and just take time out to drop them email, or next time we see them, just say, you know, we've noticed.

Well done.

Thank you.

On Sunday, one of the people led the prayer for us, and it was the second time they had ever led the prayer in the church service.

Um, Mary Jones, she did a great job.

Yeah.

Um, and at the end of the service, she said, That's the second time I've ever done it.

And she was quite nervous about doing it, but she did such a wonderful job.

And and for her, like she's someone that leads so many things around this place that it surprises me that that's the second time she's led prayer in a worship service.

Yeah.

But but we should encourage like that.

Was wonderful.

Yeah, it was a wonderful gift she shared.

I suppose the question for the church is how do we fan the flames of somebody's sort of gift?

Yes.

So that they that that ember does actually spark into a flame and can be seen, you know.

Yeah.

It's it's a tough question because um, yeah.

And and alongside that, um some people I think they you can say that they've got a gift and they work at it and they work at it tirelessly, but then occasionally they need to step back from it because they just need a rest.

So there's a time when that flame has to be fanned and lifted and sort of encouraged.

There's also a time when they can, without guilt, just step back and say, No, I'm taking a little bit of a break now to look after myself.

Yes.

Yeah.

The the community aspect of church is very important.

Um because if we don't if we don't function as a body of Christ, is what Paul would regularly say.

Yeah.

If we don't function as a community, then all we're doing is using each other.

Yes.

You know, like if it is encouraging each other and lifting one another up, that is that is us supporting each other as a community.

Yeah.

And if we're not, we're turning it into that commercial consumer stuff of I'm using someone.

Yeah, what's in it for me?

Yeah.

And it is about mutual respect and mutual raising up.

Yeah.

There's one other point, I think it was towards the end of the reading, maybe the very end of the reading, where Paul, as he so often did in his writing, talks about guarding the precious truth entrusted to you, which is fine.

But then I wonder when it comes to that, how do we guard the gospel without becoming defensive all the time?

That's a really because there are some aspects of the gospel which are quite challenging.

It's a really interesting question.

Do we just ignore those bits?

No, we can't do that.

Like Paul talks about guarding the gospel, and that's I almost feel like we I'll say what I'm thinking, and then I'll probably back away from it and say it's not true.

I wonder whether we need to we don't need to defend the gospel, no, because it is God's truth, and therefore we put it out there, and some people accept it and some people don't.

But but we do almost need to make sure that we hold to that truth.

Yeah.

Perhaps what I was thinking of, or what I am thinking of, isn't so much the truth of the gospel, but the way in which sometimes we defend the cultural heritage of Christianity.

Oh, I for this for anyone that has been around our church for long enough, they will have heard me get into this one quite a bit, because I think that there is two things.

There is our cultural understanding of the faith, and there is the faith.

Yeah, I think that's what I'm I was trying to get at.

Yeah, and sometimes I think we try to defend our cultural understanding of the faith, not actually Jesus Christ.

Um, and so like women being quiet in church, which some churches in Australia, the Uniting Church is quite strongly opposed to that.

We have women leadership and we have ordained women, and we're very happy with that, and we see that as biblical.

But then other cultures pick up some spots in the scriptures where it says, you know, women be quiet.

Yeah.

And I think it's in Timothy, isn't it?

I think it's in 1 Timothy that one of the spots where that is the case my cultural interpretation, my my scholarly interpretation, I shouldn't actually classify myself as a scholar.

My attempt at scholarly interpretation is that in 1 Timothy, Paul is actually writing to a specific situation.

Because if you look at it, it Paul actually has women leaders that he writes to, and women leaders of the church that help him.

Chloe is one.

You know, um, who's the trader in purple cloth?

Oh, the the die maker sort of lady.

Yeah.

He'll come to me later.

Yes, there's another person that he actually, when he goes over to Corinth, um, he meets and she becomes the key person of that church.

There's two or three women that Paul relates strongly to as leaders in the church community.

So some churches in Australia don't pick that up, they miss those bits and pick up the other part that says women be quiet in church.

Yeah.

And other churches pick up the Women leadership and then yeah, and I think what I'm trying to say is sometimes I think we actually embed our cultural understanding or our cultural bias into the scriptures by the what we pick and what we read.

Yeah, and that's when it becomes problematic, I think, when we start defending our cultural beliefs um rather than the truth of the gospel behind them.

Yes, yes, yeah, yes.

There's also a couple of other points that I think follow on from that.

Um, if we believe that the Bible and the gospel of the living and truthful and active word of God, God didn't stop speaking 2,000 years ago when the Bible was written.

No, if he's still speaking today, he's probably still got something to say on those issues.

So how far do we say, look, it it's black and white and it cannot ever be changed, other than as opposed to, yes, this is what God has said in the Bible, but perhaps that was appropriate for the time.

Maybe God's speaking slightly differently now.

I think some of that is culture.

Again, I think some of that is culture.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

That's a statement that we regularly go back to, and I I think that we can hang on to that.

But that doesn't mean that God can't speak to the world we're in today in a different way to the way God spoke to a world 2,000, 3,000 years ago.

Um so I think that God can speak to us differently today than God spoke to the world 2,000 years ago, but God is unchanged.

God is just communicating in a different way.

So the truth of what God is saying is unchanged, but our understanding of that may have changed.

Yes, I think so.

And and now and that is helping us to grow clo yeah.

I think that our understanding or our ability to understand.

Our ability to understand, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, because it just seems rather odd to me that God would uh just remain quiet.

I know some churches believe we're in that time when God no longer speaks, but I think he does still speak, and I don't think he's silent on these issues.

He doesn't just say, Oh, look what I wrote, you know, have a look at what I said in Romans or whatever.

I think he's still speaking on those issues.

I think God definitely still speaks today.

Yeah, yeah, and that leads on to another point.

Then, do you think sometimes this is controversial, Richard?

Do you think sometimes we worship the word rather than Jesus?

Of course, Jesus is the word, but you I think you know what I mean.

I do.

Yes, yes, that is controversial, Phil.

Um I think we need to be careful that we don't worship we we don't worship words rather than the living God.

Yeah, I think that's so important to see it.

And it's actually reinforced.

No, I made a note of this because oh, that's really important.

Somewhere towards the end of the um, yeah, I think it's oh verse 12, very last verse, Paul says, I know, he doesn't say I know what I believe, he says, I know whom I believe.

Oh, and I think that's really significant.

He doesn't say I believe this creed and all the rest of it.

He says, I know whom I believe.

Oh, that is beautiful, isn't it?

And he's saying, I believe in Jesus Christ, and not a set of rules, rituals, and um liturgies.

I I know in whom I believe.

That is lovely.

I hadn't picked that up.

That is a very powerful way of saying it, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, that's again the softer side of bull.

The other thing that I really liked in this passage, and I mentioned it at the start of the sermon, I think it all three.

I love that Paul talks about Jesus who illuminates the way to eternal life.

I loved that line of illuminating the pathway to eternal life.

Do you know what that reminded me of?

I was in Bunnings on um Tuesday evening, yeah.

Um, and the lights go quite dim there, but there are sensors on them.

And so when you're walking down an aisle, the lights light up with you, so you can see your way right to the very end.

I mean, they're all at the they're at a very low level, dim sort of thing.

But as you're walking down this aisle, you can see the aisle lighting up before you.

And I think, and that's you know, that um what you said yesterday about um the path being illuminated, it reminded me of that walk down the long aisle at Bunnings.

Apart from the Bunnings part, I love that concept.

Like you're right.

It and for me, well, I think one of the questions we've got to ask ourselves, belief in Jesus Christ calls us into eternity.

You know, when we believe in Jesus Christ, when we give our when we follow Christ with our faith, we are invited into, called into eternity.

And I love that Paul talks about Jesus illuminating the way for us rather like rather than sort of Jesus grabbing us and dragging us in, it's guiding us into the way of eternity.

Yeah.

Um, there's another part where it, another part in the scriptures, and I often talk about Jesus forging a pathway for our eternity.

Like so, because I'm a bushwalker, yeah.

Not much nowadays, but I still do the occasional one.

And when I used to do bushwalking in Tassy, there was a couple of bushwalks that really there wasn't much of a path.

One time I can remember walking out of the Franklin River down the southwest of Tassie, and we had to walk out, it took us three days to walk out, and on that walk, there were three times over those three days where we came across a marker of the path that we were following, and that's all.

And it and can I say, when you are walking through the middle of the southwest of Tassie that you could easily get lost in and no one would find you, yeah, to find a pile of rocks sitting on the edge of a swamp was so profoundly encouraging because it meant I am on the right path.

A can sitting there was saying, You are going the right way and and you are not lost, and and you're on you're gonna get out of here.

Yeah.

And I think that Jesus illuminating the pathway or forging the pathway, it's a bit like that pile of rocks.

You you're on the right path now to eternity.

Christ is drawing you there.

And there are echoes there, aren't there, of the 23rd Psalm, even though you're walking through the valley of the shadow of the death.

I I am with you, I am leading you.

Just you know, I've got this.

Trust me, I'm with you.

Together we'll get through it somehow.

Yeah, it's really powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What else did you find in this passage?

Anything other things that you wanted to bring up?

No, I think we've covered most of it's incredible, isn't it?

That um you can re you can get so much from such a small passage in the Bible.

Yes.

But but I the one thing I did, the one thing that struck me the most, and I only realized it this morning um when I was reading around it, was the the reference that Paul says.

Um, where is it now?

Yeah, I I mentioned it earlier.

Um, it's that he is he knows whom he believes, not what he believes.

And I think, yeah, we can explain that to people.

Uh going back to that, explain the gospel, be open to people's uh conversation, don't be ashamed of it.

Um, and get over to people the idea that you know, we're not introducing you to a set of rules and regulations.

We're not it's not this merit-based system, which I think a lot of people have the understanding of.

It's a merit-based religion.

How many points have you got?

Yeah, am I good enough?

Yeah, and and there's a lot of rules and regulations in the Bible, you know, learn them and follow them and obey them, and you'll be fine.

Paul makes it clear that no, it's not what I believe, it's who I believe.

Yes, it's the person of Jesus Christ that we're asking them to trust.

Not the church, not the United Church, the Anglicans, the Catholics, it's Jesus.

This is whom I believe.

Yeah.

That is really lovely.

For for me, it look if you could probably turn two-thirds of the sermon from Sunday into a fairly short thing of saying tell people if you're thinking about them, tell people if you're praying for them, and tell people if you want to encourage them.

You know, use your words and they are really powerful.

If someone is struggling for them to be told that you are praying for them, or if someone is needing encouragement for you to use your words of encouragement, we've got a couple of people in this congregation that write letters of encouragement to people.

Letter writing is a dying art nowadays.

It's beautiful when you get a letter, though, isn't it?

That's right.

If you get a letter, and particularly a letter that has encouraging words, that lifts you up no end.

Um and so I think Paul here telling Timothy that he's praying for him and telling him that he's doing a great job and he's encouraging him.

Let us take that up and do that with other people.

Yeah.

Huh.

Okay.

Um anything else?

No, I'm happy with that, Richard.

Excellent.

I choose my goal for you to be happy, Phil.

Thank you.

Um, and look, as far as things in the life of our church, um, there's not a huge amount happening at the moment.

We've just in the midst of the process of setting our future goals in mission and ministry.

And we had a meeting of the elders and leaders last on Saturday.

Yeah.

We're in the process of putting that together.

Over the next couple of months, the elders and leaders will be putting some stuff together and then we'll report back to the congregation.

Yeah, we got them, didn't we?

To um, or we invited them all to fill in that survey so we could get a sense of where they are and what they believe and what their hopes and visions are for the future.

And it's a question of taking those and selecting three or four priorities that we really want to focus on for the next four or five years.

Yeah.

So we're in the process now of setting our goals and our plans for just the next period of time.

Yeah.

Um, and we'll continue that.

So that's probably one of the key things that there is as far as notices beyond that.

Repair cafes coming up.

Teze service.

Tezé service, straight after the repair cafe.

Yeah.

Um, a wonderful service that.

Do you want to just tell people about it?

Okay, look, a Teze service, for somebody who's never been to one, I don't know, people talk about Teze meditation, and that word just kills a lot, kills it for a lot of people.

But a Teze service is basically just a contemplative service.

There are very few spoken words.

There is no, there's no uh preaching.

Um all it is is a it's encouraging you to spend time in silence with God, extended periods of scient time in silence with God.

It's that phrase in the Bible, just be and know that what is it?

Be still and know that I am God.

Be still and know that I am God.

And then to encourage you into that state, there is a special Teze music with words, but you don't nobody sings, you don't have to join in.

You just sort of uh follow along, the words are given to you.

So there'll be four or five of these Teze chants, um, and in between, there will be one or two Bible um verses, there'll be uh prayers, but really it's about the we have about three periods of extended silence.

So 15 minutes of the service, it lasts about 40, but 15 minutes of those, it's just complete and utter silence.

Just you and God.

Turn off the distractions of the world, you can't hear anything, just be still and know that I am God.

Beautiful.

Um, well, everyone, thank you very much for listening today.

And Phil, thank you so much for being a part of the conversation.

Thank you, Richard.

See you all next week.