SCC Savor Special: Pastor Chopo Mwanza Interview

Jeramie: Welcome back to another episode of the SCC Saver. I am one of your co-hosts, Jeremy Rennie. I'm the senior pastor of Sanibel Community Church, and I'm joined here by another one of my fellow pastors, Bobby Kunkel.

Bobby: Howdy.

Jeramie: Also, a pastor here, associate pastor focusing on music, other things.

Bobby: adult Bible classes.

Jeramie: Adult Bible classes and music, a classic combination. And we're joined today with a special guest, Chopo Mwanza. Chopo is a pastor from Zambia. ⁓ He is one of our friends in the gospel, and he's actually here speaking at our annual missions weekend. And so we thought, hey, while he's here, we ought to pick his brain a little bit about ministry in Africa. What's it like being a pastor there in Zambia? So Chopra, welcome.

Chopo: Thank you. Good to be here.

Jeramie: Yeah, how's your trip over here?

Chopo: alone but

Jeramie: So you flew what? ⁓ Through Johannesburg?

Chopo: Johannesburg, Frankfurt, ⁓ then Fort Myers.

Jeramie: Frankfurt to Fort Myers. Yes. Yes. A very popular flight from Frankfurt to Fort Myers. So you, tell us what church you pastor in Zambia.

Chopo: Yeah, Pastor Faith Baptist Church in Riverside, Kittwe.

Jeramie: Yes, I've been there.

Chopo: You have. You've preached that.

Jeramie: I preached there. an awesome congregation. What was cool in Kittwa is after we preached, then everyone went outside and sat around in the church yard and did Bible discussion, sort of after church discussion about the sermon. That was really rich. It was great. Great fellowship time.

Chopo: Yeah, yeah, we find it helpful.

Jeramie: Yeah. So how long have you been the pastor there at that church?

Chopo: Um, 10, 11 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I came to faith at Faith Baptist Church in 2001. Okay. Yeah. I heard the gospel there and, um, I believed in Christ and been there since.

Jeramie: 10, 11 years. And that's the church who came to faith in Christ? So how did you go from being somebody who came to faith in Christ at that church to being the senior pastor of that church?

Chopo: Yeah, well, I grew up wanting to be a ⁓ But when I got saved, kind of grew to love teaching and preaching God's word, primarily at school with some friends.

Jeramie: Preaching at school. Yes. Okay, this is outside of the American experience. So help us with that.

Chopo: Yeah, so ⁓ Zambia is very Christian ⁓ and has a Christian flavor to it. It's constitutionally a Christian nation. ⁓ the praying and reading of scripture is fairly common in public meetings and even in public schools. So I was in a class with a number of Christians who felt You know, it would be a good idea before class to have someone share God's word to everyone. And I was one of the guys who would stand up, preach something, five to 10 minutes. There'll be a brief discussion, we'd pray. I have no idea how that just felt normal. But, know, that was a common practice. School assemblies, we'd often... It often preaches.

Jeramie: And do you have those sermons on the website somewhere?

Chopo: No, okay. No.

Bobby: Do you think that being constitutionally Christian is helpful for the promotion of the gospel among a nation, or are there hindrances that, what are the hindrances that come along with that?

Chopo: It's a double edged sword. ⁓ It's helpful in the sense that Christian ministries, organizations and churches receive a high level of favor from government. It's easy to set up Christian ministries in Zambia. ⁓ And you are generally not being harassed by government officials and entities. ⁓ The downside is Christianity becomes cultural and there's a general lack of understanding or depth to what it means to be a Christian and the gospel can easily be diluted as a result because everyone just assumes they are a Christian. Yeah.

Jeramie: Good.

Bobby: Are there, you know, in the states here, Christianity was more of a shared national pastime, at least of sorts, or at least some of the Judeo-Christian ethic was shared amongst the nation, and now the nation is divided on some spectrum of more favorable or now there are quite a few more, especially the urban areas, that are less favorable toward some of our convictions. biblical sexuality. Is that similar in Zambia where certain Christian views, while Christianity ⁓ overall is accepted, even promoted, that if you hold tighter lines and hold firmer convictions, that then you become more of an outsider within even that Christian culture?

Chopo: ⁓ Well, it's a bit more complicated ⁓ in our context because On top of cultural Christianity, constitutional Christianity is also the fact that we are naturally religious. So it's normal to be religious in Africa. And what's been happening is, especially among the young people who are educated, associating ⁓ that natural religion and its thinking and worldview with Christianity. ⁓ yes, yes. And so they would push back on the African tradition, religion and worldview. ⁓ And in their mind, they're pushing back on Christianity. So

Jeramie: So a kind of syncretism. So help us with that. Talk a little bit about the features of African traditional religion. What does that mean? Because you say that's almost really a worldview and a framework for interpreting life.

Chopo: Yeah. Yeah. So it's ⁓ really a worldview and, ⁓ you know, worldview and religion more often than not usually go hand in hand. ⁓ And so in that worldview, God exists. So there's a general natural belief in the existence of God ⁓ who is creator of all. powerful and sovereign over all, but distant. So you have this powerful impersonal God who is not relational. And he has delegated his authority to spirit beings or lesser gods who are divided in the category of good and evil. And they're kind of at work in the affairs of men. And so anything good, comes from good spirits. Anything bad comes from evil spirits. ⁓ So certain demons would be classified in the evil spirits. ⁓ Angels, good angels, would be classified in the good spirits. And then you have a third tier of ⁓ mediums. human mediums who would have access to the spirit world and can intercede or interact with the spirit world on behalf of other humans. So in African traditional religion, it would be your chief, witch doctor, herbalist, et cetera, et cetera. So that's kind of you know, the view of God. then with that, also have in African tradition, religion and African ⁓ culture, very communal. ⁓ So your identity as an individual is tied to ⁓ your identity with the group, with the community, so your tribe, your family, your clan. ⁓ or your village. So you can't define the individual apart from the community. And therefore, the greater good is whatever is good for the community. So even the doctrine of sin in African tradition religion has to do with offenses against the community and not necessarily sin against God. ⁓ there are certain taboos ⁓ that are frowned upon in a community. ⁓ And therefore, ⁓ because of that doctrine of the view of sin, that affects the doctrine of salvation, and that affects the doctrine of Christ.

Jeramie: So then when Christianity gets sort of mapped onto African traditional religion, how does that affect the understanding of salvation and what Jesus does?

Chopo: Yeah. So one, when you preach Christianity and ⁓ the God of the Bible, people in Africa will be like, OK, yeah, sure, we believe in God. ⁓ But then they don't see ⁓ the need for repentance of sin. because there's strictly no category for it. And ⁓ they don't see the primary need of Jesus Christ as savior. And his work on the cross is then a kind of a foreign concept. then Christ is viewed as some sort of powerful being who gives you access to God ⁓ and his blood, ⁓ his shed blood is some mystical, magical ⁓ substance that gives you the necessary power.

Jeramie: to overcome the evil spirits. So you're having a problem in your life. African traditional religion says the bad spirits are attacking you. You need to get help from the good powers, maybe through witch doctor, through your chief, whatever. So when that then becomes Christianized, it's ⁓ what, God is there to ⁓ make my life better, and we have to get through the evil powers that are blocking that.

Chopo: and Jesus gives you a better life and helps you overcome the evil spirit. ⁓ And so the prosperity gospel and the word of faith movement ⁓ catches on like wildfire in that context, right? Because that's, I mean, that resonates. So the...

Jeramie: Yeah, the kindling.

Chopo: the message that you need to be happy, healthy, and wealthy, and God wants to make you happy, healthy, and wealthy, ⁓ just resonates with people. And when you add the fact that there's a lot of poverty on the continent, that's a felt need, a real desire that people... ⁓ want and Jesus becomes kind of the avenue through which you become healthy, wealthy and healthy.

Bobby: It's interesting comparing my Native culture, American culture, with what you're describing, and I'm thinking about how Jesus, the prosperity gospel does plenty fine in America as well, but often the prosperity that folks are after here is psychological. Like our issue are psychological issues that then if I know Jesus, I'll get peace that surpasses understanding and all will be well.

Jeramie: Hmm.

Bobby: Not realizing, once you become a Christian, you're far more sensitive to your sin. I you got psychological issues like crazy. So I'm thinking, because what you described, at least initially, seems like the issue of sin is something that's outside of us in the African kind of mindset. And that gets solved, again, by something outside of us. Maybe that's tied into something that's true. But in America, I feel like a lot of people think there's something wrong inside. It might not be Similarly, they don't want to take responsibility for it. They want to blame it on something else. So systemic pressures, whatever, cause me to feel a certain way and then Jesus has a way to feel better. Are there, obviously, ultimately Africans like Americans like Asians have consciences and somewhere in there is an awareness, I am not good. So what's the internal kind of How does that work internally in somebody in Zambia's mind or heart of how they process sin, offense, evil, or is it they've been so kind of worked in their worldview to think of it only as outside of themselves?

Chopo: Yeah. so I mean, there's, there will be some acknowledgement. I'll tell you when someone is, is really down and out, like there'll be some acknowledgement of, ⁓ yeah, I'm, you know, I'm stuck in this and I, I don't know how to get out or what the problem is, but ultimately, ⁓ it will be tied to some evil spirit. Or it could be, well, it's because of the family, the kind of family I grew up in. Or this is the spirit of my father. My father was like this, therefore I am ⁓ also like this. And there's obviously an element of truth in that, you know, the environment you grow up in or the example you grow up seeing will have an influence on you. But generally, so you hear things like You know, someone has a spirit of drunkenness or someone is as a, as a spirit of a doubter. And, and so the solution is we need to deliver you from that spirit. need to cast, it out. Or, or even if people who are told, look, there's a, there's a chain ⁓ that is upon your family and, it needs, you need a breakthrough. That's why you can see a pattern. ⁓ that is repeating itself in your family. It was in your grandfather, was in your father, it's now ⁓ in you. And if it's not broken, it will be ⁓ in your son. ⁓ And so there's always ⁓ some spirit at work that needs to be delivered and not necessarily look, you are... sinning because you are a sinner and you need a savior who will change you and deliver you from the power and the penalty of sin.

Jeramie: So, ⁓ you you said it's a Christian nation. I mean, what percentage of people would identify as Christian in the country then?

Chopo: Yeah, going by the official statistics, you're talking of 88 to 93, 95 % would be considered Christian.

Jeramie: But now, how widespread then is that kind of prosperity version of Christianity that also seems to be a kind of Christianized version of African traditional religion? How widespread is that among that 88 to 95 %?

Chopo: I mean, it's hard to give out ⁓ clear, accurate statistics, but it's fairly spread ⁓ to the extent that it's permeating and affecting every denomination ⁓ in the country and generally across the continent. ⁓ Yeah.

Jeramie: So when you preach then, ⁓ Sunday after Sunday, and you're aware that this kind of confusion about what biblical Christianity is has so permeated the culture, what kinds of things do you do in your preaching? What kind of themes do you hit to clarify what these words mean or don't mean so that you're not just saying words that the person who's in that worldview is like, ⁓ yeah, I agree. but you're kind of using same words to mean different things. What sort of clarifications do you make?

Chopo: Well, is to clearly, ⁓ first of all, ⁓ exposition of preaching, through books, consecutively helps because it's shaping the thinking and helping people how to study God's word. ⁓ Two is defining terms and not assuming everyone understands biblical lingo. So saying we believe the gospel is not enough. You have to explain what you mean by gospel. ⁓ Saying believe in Jesus Christ. Well, you have to explain what exactly does believe in Jesus Christ mean. ⁓ And then fleshing out the implication. of those truths that you are saying you believe ⁓ and giving out specific applications ⁓ of that. I mean, that's very important in our context because you are almost having to convince people, look, ⁓ you are agreeing with what I'm saying, but you actually don't agree.

Jeramie: ⁓ They're like, with you. No, you're not. Yes, we are. No, you're not. So give me an example. So you're preaching on sovereignty of God.

Chopo: Exactly Yeah. ⁓ Let's say. Exactly. I mean, you get immense. ⁓ God is sovereign. Absolutely. ⁓ He's sovereign over all things. He has absolute sovereignty. ⁓ yes. ⁓ He's sovereign over the affairs of men. Absolutely. He's sovereign over life and death. ⁓ You get some silence there.

Jeramie: Yeah, and people would agree with that ⁓ Because of death. Because death is in the realm of the evil spirits, not in the realm of the good.

Chopo: Yes, because... ⁓ He's sovereign over sickness and suffering. ⁓ You know, can disaster come to a city unless the Lord allows it. you know, his job is a problem in African tradition, religion, African Christianity, because he is just a classic example of, ⁓ you know, God allowing suffering of all kinds on his dear child. And it's for his own glory. And I like pointing out to people back home, you need to remember, it's the Lord who brings up job to Satan. ⁓ Almost like saying, hey, have a go. ⁓ You know,

Jeramie: And I even think when ⁓ it's, know, Job says, Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord. And then the commentary is, and he did not sin in what he said. Whereas if the explanation is, well, it's really Satan who did it and God is not responsible for that, then he would have sinned in what he

Chopo: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And even when you think of certain's response to the Lord, mean, it was in essence a very serious accusation. Does Job worship you for nothing? ⁓ In other words, you give people what they want, you shield them and protect them so that they worship you. They worship you for what you give them rather than for who you are. If you take away everything, this guy won't worship you. And the Lord says, go ahead. ⁓ So that, I mean, it's fleshing out the implications and clearly defining your terms ⁓ and applying that truth to everyday life. That's absolutely essential if you're going to ⁓ force people to wrestle with their own underlining worldview.

Bobby: I'm interested. Someone might say that what you're describing is Western thought trying to or Western paradigms trying to be forced upon, you know, African paradigms. And so, you know, the honor shame culture or the communal culture is being exchanged for more of an individualistic culture and perspective on life. What would you say to somebody who's saying this this worldview, the way you're trying to address worldview issues? is not merely a westernizing of Africans.

Chopo: Yeah, because we're seeking to preach the Bible, explain the Bible, and leave out the Bible and apply the Bible to a particular context. ⁓ We are not seeking to import Western thinking. So I think the problem in lot of those conversations is instead of analyzing a worldview, and saying, does the Bible say? We instead begin to compare two different worldviews. So if you are in the East, you look at issues and the thinking in the Eastern worldview, and you compare it to the West. both of those have issues, and they need to, ⁓ there's need for renewal. ⁓ in thinking so that the thinking is biblical. ⁓ So it's not African versus Western. It's what does the Bible say? What does the Bible mean by what it says? And how do we leave this biblical truth out in our context?

Jeramie: And of course the irony is the Bible was originally written in an Eastern, if you want to use Eastern cultural context. The other irony is that the prosperity gospel was created in America and exported to Africa through satellite TV.

Chopo: Exactly. ⁓

Bobby: I'm interested, so I'm the guy who oversees our worship services here at ⁓ SCC. What does a typical worship service or a Sunday, I don't know how long Sunday is for your church, what's that look like? What happens in a service? What's the style of music or of expression? How does the congregation interact with the preacher? Any of that stuff?

Chopo: Yeah, I mean, the elements of worship would generally be the same. have prayer, have singing, you have preaching of God's word. ⁓ You have the ordinances, baptism and the Lord's Supper. ⁓ The actual flow ⁓ of it will be different from congregation to congregation. So, you know, we open prayer, ⁓ we sing. We sing a diverse different kinds of songs. We sing English hymns. ⁓ We sing local vernacular hymns, choruses, ⁓ old songs, modern songs. ⁓ Well, no, no. We don't dance. Although ⁓ Africans generally have rhythm. So we clap.

Bobby: Is there dance involved?

Chopo: as instrumentation. ⁓ you know, depending on the person, some move back and forth, but ⁓ there'll be generally more rhythm to our, to our worship than, than in a typical ⁓ American church. ⁓ We have instruments. ⁓ Yeah.

Jeramie: Yeah, the one thing that I noticed when I worshiped there with you was especially the African choruses with the kind of almost instinctive harmonies that were just hauntingly beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, because when I taught at the school there, I would make recordings. I'll play some for you, Bobby. I was just doing these recordings and they were just like, you know, I was like.

Chopo: Mm.

Jeramie: I think I'm in heaven, it sounds so beautiful to my American ears.

Chopo: I think Africans will lead the singing in heaven. Yeah. ⁓

Jeramie: I would be okay with that.

Bobby: What will the Americans lead?

Jeramie: The protests. And the outrage.

Bobby: I'm also interested you have a shirt on that says C-A-B-U on it. Would you tell us about that?

Chopo: Yes, at Central Africa Baptist University, a school that's been in existence for 20 years exists to train servant leaders for Great Commission ⁓ living in Africa. So we train men and women for ⁓ the Great Commission. ⁓ We have several programs ⁓ ranging from one-year certificate programs to a four-year degree program, masters, and an MD. ⁓ Yeah. And it kind of came out because of the need for trend people. Statistics will say 80 to 90 % of pastors in Africa are ⁓ largely on trend. So the need to plant churches, you realize you need people who are trained, who are equipped. So CABU comes alongside churches as they seek to invest and equip men ⁓ for pastoral work. And we support the church in that sense.

Bobby: And end your role with the school is.

Chopo: ⁓ I am the president-designate this year.

Jeramie: President designate.

Chopo: Yes. ⁓ well, that's where the designate-

Bobby: So do you have all the power?

Jeramie: Bobby, you are the associate pastor designated of worship. Yes, wait, what?

Chopo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were going through a leadership transition for one year, ⁓ where ⁓ Phil Hunt, who's the current president, I serve alongside ⁓ other. then ⁓ next year, January, I take over.

Jeramie: One of the things I noticed when I was there is that in addition to just this myriad of classes and students and you had a radio station, but you also had a publishing house. Why ⁓ did that school start a publishing house?

Chopo: Well, because there is need for resources for books and all kinds of material on the continent. ⁓ Shipping them ⁓ from the US or Europe is extremely expensive and it takes forever. But then on top of that is you also need ⁓ African writers to address some of these issues. that we've talked about. A lot of the literature that's out there is often written from a Western ⁓ context, as you would expect. ⁓ So if you pick up a book on preaching, you pick up a book on counseling and apologetics, or even systematic theology, it will be addressing issues in its context, the author will be thinking in his eyes as he should or as you know, they should. And we don't have books and material that is addressing issues on the context in the context of Africa. So a publishing ministry does two things. One, it's able to print ⁓ already existing ⁓ books locally, cheaply. make it give accessibility, but then also able to put out local authors, material by local authors so that we are addressing our own issues in our context.

Jeramie: I ⁓ read Conrad ⁓ Beyway's book on the local church. ⁓ And it was just so fascinating to read about a familiar topic for me, which I've read a lot, but him making those instinctive applications to African culture. And so it was almost like I was reading Ecclesiology with fresh eyes, because it's like, ⁓ yeah, these are different issues, but the truths work the same. They just work out differently in application.

Chopo: Yeah. Yeah,

Bobby: To that, should somebody in America, or we could say big in the West, think about African culture? All of Africa generally fits in this good evil, the spirits interaction. Is that pretty universal across the continent?

Chopo: ⁓ Largely, so sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa would be slightly different.

Jeramie: Now wait a minute, we're Americans, so you're telling me Africa's not a country? There's more than one country in Africa? Okay. Yes. Alright.

Bobby: I'll buy you a globe.

Jeramie: You

Chopo: Yeah. So, so there will be a lot of similarities by and large with some specific nuances in every country or tribe, ⁓ but by and large the principles are the same.

Bobby: And the school is called Central Africa Baptist University, not Zambia Baptist University. So does it serve more countries beyond Zambia?

Chopo: Yes, yes. So we've ⁓ had students from 17 different countries, the continent. ⁓ have graduates ⁓ from 17 different countries. Right now, this year, we have students from eight different countries on campus. So it's saving. ⁓ and seeking to reach the whole of Africa.

Jeramie: ⁓ Speaking of, you know, Western African church, if you were to take like a theological syringe and stick it into the arm of the African evangelical church and draw out good things that were like real strengths and then shoot them into the arm of the American evangelical church, what would you put into our arm? And vice versa, what would you syringe out of the American church and shoot into the African church?

Chopo: Yeah, that's a good question. ⁓ So from the African church, I would ⁓ get communal living, just an appreciation that the church is not ⁓ a private affair. Christianity is not a private affair. It's a community. serves us into a community of believers. So when you read the one another passages, they are really about doing life together, know, accountability towards one another, love for one another, serving one another, you know, and so on and putting other people's interests first. ⁓

Bobby: What might that look like, do you think, in America? Somebody might say, well, I have a home group we meet on Wednesday nights, and I go to church and we have lunch sometimes afterward.

Chopo: ⁓ Yeah, just I think it means pursuing relationships with one another, not putting other people's, you your interests first, not viewing the church as a consumer ⁓ coming in to get services, you know. ⁓ looking out for other people's needs and issues. If someone is down, we are down. ⁓ So that's one. Two would be, I think, closely tied to that, viewing other churches as ⁓ the larger body of Christ. ⁓ So my brother in Christ down the road or across the city in another church is not my rival. ⁓ We are part of God's family. And we will gather around the throne together. ⁓ So we are not tearing each other apart. ⁓

Jeramie: Do we do that in the States?

Chopo: Hmm.

Bobby: I'll get back to you on that.

Jeramie: Okay.

Chopo: then I would, I would add the, ⁓ the singing. ⁓ yeah. Get a ⁓ dose of good, ⁓ strong African singing.

Jeramie: would try to play some from my phone recordings from when I was there, but it's probably going to come out terribly on this, you know.

Bobby: Everybody just got to go visit.

Jeramie: Yes. Yes. OK, how about the other way?

Chopo: The other way I would ⁓ take this. One is clarity, carefulness with God's word, and clarity in doctrine, clarity in teaching. ⁓ I think the African church can be a bit vague in what it is to believe, whereas I the American church is very good about being very clear in here's what. Here's who we are. Here's what we believe. Here's what we don't believe. And that even translates to writing. Like, there's a real issue. There's a question. Let's write on it. Let's clarify what exactly, you know. And every issue that arises, you can kind of see it. The American church is thinking, it's like, brothers, sisters, we need to address. Let's think about this. This is something we've not thought about and clearly articulated. Let's articulate it. And that's something we really need to learn from an African point of view. ⁓

Jeramie: And I suppose that's where like CAVU and other, just providing academic theological education helps.

Chopo: Yes, yes it does. ⁓ Then just ⁓ excellency ⁓ in service. think the... ⁓ You know, Christians in America really give a good testimony on the excellency of God and just beauty and doing everything beautifully, whether it's from, you know, your buildings, your auditoriums or your setups, your services, everything is, you're like, ⁓ wow. Yeah. Well.

Bobby: But not our singing? Can't have it all.

Chopo: No, but you know, even with that, your arrangements, know, you, you, you, you, all that would be, would be, would be very well done. ⁓ and I think that that gives a very good testimony. God deserves the God of all days, the God of beauty, ⁓ and, his children should as well. ⁓ generosity is another, is another, ⁓ blessing, I think, ⁓ that we can learn from. The American church and American Christians are very generous and committed to supporting ⁓ God's work across the world, around the world. And that's something we can learn from as a church in Africa.

Jeramie: Bobby, final question for Chopo.

Bobby: What's one or two books you've been reading lately that have impacted you?

Chopo: ⁓ Reading, ⁓ I forget the author's name, ⁓ but ⁓ it's a counseling book. And let me not try remembering the name of the author, but it's suffering. Christians as sufferers, saints and sinners. ⁓ Very helpful. ⁓ Very helpful book, very, ⁓

Jeramie: Yeah, our elders read through that last year. Yeah, very helpful

Chopo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that actually came with it. I was reading it on my flight here. Let's see what else am I reading? I think that's probably the only book I'm kind of reading through. The others I'm reading specific sections for different things. Reaching through Genesis. to our next, someone who'll be chapter 21. ⁓ yeah. Yes, yes. Just preached chapter 20 where Abraham once again ⁓ denies his wife. It's a remarkable story of God's faithfulness, ⁓ even in the midst of

Jeramie: to Isaac. ⁓

Chopo: ⁓ man's unfaithfulness.

Jeramie: Well, thank you for spending time with us, Chopo, and just sharing a little bit about life and ministry in Africa. Thank you for coming across the pond here to speak at our Missions Conference. Looking forward to ⁓ hearing you at the banquet and on Sunday morning. So if you're listening to this podcast and you're like, ⁓ I wonder what it's like to hear Chopo preach, that will be the sermon on ⁓ February 22nd.

Chopo: .

Jeramie: So if you look at February 22nd, 2026 on our YouTube channel, that's where you can hear that service where Chopo preaches. So it's been great to have you with us again on the SEC Savor, this special edition, learning from our brother and from the African church and gaining their wisdom. You can follow us on Apple podcasts, on YouTube or on Spotify. Until next time.

Bobby: YEEEE