Heartland Distinctives Week 22 - Heartland Distinctives_Q&A

All right, welcome.

Good evening.

Give us a couple minutes to settle in.

If you didn't get a handout, I apologize, I didn't put them out on the pub table, but there's some on the front.

It's it's the schedule.

If it it looks different on purpose, this is, if you never saw it, the schedule of uh the class that we are wrapping up this evening, I suppose, uh, that has been it says on their fall 25-17 weeks, we're now on week 20 something.

Uh just we've we slowed down more than we expected to, but like we've been doing last several uh sessions, we're gonna do panel style.

Kevin, if you want to go ahead and make your way.

Um so it'll be Gerardo and Kevin Crittle and myself.

This evening is uh we we mentioned last week, ask the pastor style, and then also requested that if you if you had a question ahead of time, please email it to us.

Um I I didn't see any.

I know that doesn't mean you don't have questions.

So what how we'll begin is I'm gonna pray in a moment, and I'm just gonna we're gonna be quiet on purpose.

Just peruse.

Uh and if if if a question occurs to you from things we've discussed, so just some some some guardrails for the range of topics tonight.

It's not a full open-ended ask the pastor.

Let's just keep it too.

So please don't be offended if I if I defer your question for another time or if I say let's talk about that uh in another setting.

Uh and if you don't have questions, we've prepared some to ask ourselves uh that we thought might be just might be useful discussions.

So uh one more thing uh in case you didn't catch it or uh if you have forgotten, Robert is on vacation.

So if you've reached out to him, that is why he has hopefully not texted you back.

So uh just as a another, it's always good to repeat when uh someone you're used to being available is not available.

So let me pray for us uh and and we'll go from there.

Father, thank you uh for this evening.

Thank you for another Wednesday where we can come together midweek to uh encourage one another and spur one another on to the to the work that you have prepared for us and uh for this opportunity to sharpen one another.

Uh thankful for this church family that is interested um in knowing you deeply.

Uh may we be reminded that all these exercises and all the theology and all the ology words that come with it are are intended to tune our hearts further to you uh and understanding that prayerfully leads to joyful and loving response through worshipful lives lived in in response.

So uh this evening, please bless our time and we thank you, we love you.

In Jesus' name we pray.

Amen.

Okay, so here's the everyone just sit in the awkward silence for a minute and review the lists.

And then if you have questions from the list, great.

If not, I'm not gonna let I'm not I'm not gonna extend that.

We'll just jump into some things that we've prepared to to talk about.

So I'll pull this back together here in a in a minute.

Does anyone have a a burning question that is paired with the boldness to ask it?

Tell you what, maybe it will be let's start on one of our prompts.

Um and then if that if that prompts questions from you, give me one of these and uh and we'll go from there.

So let me uh start with one that we wrote to ourselves or for ourselves, uh, but the idea being just that we we pray it'll be fruitful.

We'll start with scripture and and and the Bible.

Uh I hope to some degree that this is like again, uh we I don't mind to constantly or have the reputation for they talk about this all the time.

Uh so just scripture in general, it was the first session or the first couple sessions, but to to change the discussion a bit, um, we we assert and believe that the Bible is a is inerrant.

So, in in uh other than maybe uh uh a scribe missed a comma somewhere, that the Lord has preserved the integrity of his word uh through the generations.

We we have the canon of scripture, it's inerrant, it's authoritative, meaning we we this is our rule for life.

Uh we find it in this book.

Uh it's not that every answer is easy to discern, but they're it they're in there, which leads into we believe that the word is sufficient.

So the the the word of the Lord, the living and active word of the Lord is sufficient for all of life and salvation.

Now, uh what what should devotion to that look like?

What does that mean with boots on?

What does that mean when the rubber hits pick your cliche?

Well, what is that?

We take that as a theological concept, how do we live that out, or how have you guys lived that out?

And maybe if if you're if you can pinpoint or or think of that moment, did that did you used to think of it a different way and and when did that shift?

So how are we living out the Bible as authority authoritative, inerrant, sufficient, and and when did that really settle in you?

We're still in process, but this is where my mind goes.

Uh may not answer it 100%, but I think this is true of just about anything in life.

Um what I'm about to say is um what what you what you truly believe is ultimately reflected in the way that you live.

Um so if you say that you believe this is authoritative, if you believe it's inerrant, if you believe that it is sufficient for all that we need for life and godliness, um when the rubber hits the road, if we're not living according to the word of God, then we those are just words that we we know what they mean.

We can wax eloquently all day about the necessity, the clarity, the sufficiency of scripture.

Um, but if my life isn't ultimately uh yielded, surrendered, submitted to the word of God and living it out, um, then it means absolutely nothing.

I can say all those things.

So that's where my mind goes to, first of all, is um I think that's true of all of these things.

If we truly believe it, then ultimately our life has to reflect it.

Um my mind always goes to, not always, but ultimately to 2 Timothy 3 16 says, All scriptures breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training and righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

I think this text, sorry if I'm rambling, stop me if you have something important to say.

Um I think this this passage teaches us two things.

One, for sure, it tells us something about the doctrine of scripture.

All scriptures breathed out by God.

This is the word of God.

Um, but I think it also, I think week two or three, whatever uh you you looked at anthropology, I think this teaches us something about man as well.

Uh the fact that this word is meant to uh teach and reproof and correct means that we often are in error and we need to be corrected, we need to be rebuked, we need to be trained in righteousness because our default setting is to live sinfully rather than living in the righteousness of God.

And so I think it tells us something about ourselves as well.

And so one of the things that I would prompt myself to think about do I truly believe that this is the word of God?

Is when is the last time I read this and it had to correct me?

When was the last time that I read the word of God and it rebuked me and I actually had to shift my thinking or my living to actually uh live in obedience to it?

Or does every time I read the word of God, does it just affirm what I think and what I believe, what I feel, what I want?

If if I'm not saying that it shouldn't at times, especially the more that our lives align with the word of God, but if that's all I'm ever experiencing, if I'm never being corrected, rebuked, if I'm if I'm not being trained in righteousness, then I I may not be either reading it correctly or actually living it in obedience to it.

And so uh that's where my mind went to.

So, what does devotion to the word of God look like?

Um, I think it means uh reading it as we truly believe it is the word of God.

I have a friend, you've probably heard this quip before, but um we we so desperately often want to hear the word of God or hear the voice of God, and sometimes we mean like we want to want to hear him speak audibly, or we want we want this um mystical, mysterious encounter with God, and I had a friend who just said, Man, if you want to hear the Lord speak, just open up his Bible.

Um, so where where how is our devotion uh reflected?

It it's often seen in our commitment to read it, to meditate on it, to pray in response to it, and then ultimately to submit our lives and yield ourselves in obedience to it.

Sounds like inherent to that is some actionables um to to live it out.

Luke and I were talking earlier today about the difference in being full of Bible trivia and being full of the living word of God.

And the being full of the living word of God is usually kind of in sync with I'm I'm acting on the word of the Lord instead of just building a did you know uh uh kind of kind of approach to it, which is that's neat.

Uh I don't I mean this, this is not blowing smoke.

There's a decent chance that many of you could beat me at Bible trivia.

Uh maybe I'm a I I'm a bit convicted by that, but it's the I just hear me, I took off on this thought without thinking about how it sounds, but the it's um the the the the Bible trivia is good, um, but knowing how Luke mentioned because he's been studying in Exodus, that's what the what they're teaching over here, he said, man, I I didn't he said, Did you know that Moses was 80 when God sent him back to Egypt?

And I thought, no, I didn't know that.

Uh I thought, interesting.

I went, okay, I'm kind of moved on.

Uh, and it's not that there's no lessons to to draw from that from that, but it's the like, okay, well, for someone who maybe knows that Moses was 80 when he got sent back, but can't point out Moses is mentioned in the New Testament.

Show me the the ark of Moses and the redemptive story and what he has to do with Jesus and how that plays out in our lives.

That he is 80 is interesting.

What he did uh as as a as a proto as a type, looking ahead towards Christ is more important.

It's not that him being 80 wasn't, but just so being mindful of how you consume and your motivations for consuming scripture.

I also I grew up uh in a Southern Baptist church that that was not interested in being Southern Baptist, was the pastor at that time was uh charismatic.

That's fine.

Uh, but I didn't I didn't know anything about being Baptist.

But, anyways, part of what came from that was uh I had a bunch of friends who went to churches that teach more like us, and I was kind of told that those were all fundamentalists and that that only leads to legalism.

They call them Bible thumpers, and those people exist, and I want to guard against being a legalistic Bible thumper.

But then I started to get around people who took seriously the word of the Lord who knew it well, knew it well enough to call it to mind situationally, and they seemed full of joy to be under that constraint of the word.

Whereas I was told for so much of my early years that the joy of Christianity is the freedom, yes, yes, in context of uh the freedom that we are now bound to Christ, who said, and teach them to follow or to obey all that I've commanded you.

So there somewhat we got to be careful, certainly, about not becoming legalistic, but there is the psalmist says, Lord, I love your law.

And I think I want to get to a point where I can say with earnestness, even if I don't like it, I love it because I recognize that the discipline that this book brings to my life is the Lord's grace on me.

Uh some of that has come with, I know I'm not old, but I'm with age.

As I've aged, there's some just natural maturing into okay, just full freedom is not healthy for anybody.

There, the the the guardrails that scripture gives my life.

I've found more vibrant life in that than in the previous thought, which is that you read about Jesus and how to get saved in there, and then you know, we don't don't worry about too much of the rest of the stuff.

We don't want to get legalistic.

Another place my mind went to was Psalm 19.

So am I truly devoted to the Word of God?

Look at the fruit in your life.

I love the way that the psalmist, uh David actually writing this psalm, refers to the law in so many different ways, but then also points to what it should be doing in the life of those who devote themselves to the word.

So he says the law of the Lord is perfect.

What does it do?

Reviving the soul.

The testimony of the Lord is sure.

What does it do?

Making wise the simple.

The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart, the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes, and he goes on and on.

So am I truly devoted to the word of God?

Well, here's a good, a good, uh, a good filter or a little good checklist.

Um is my soul being revived?

Um, am I living in wisdom?

Is you you mentioned joy?

Am I rejoicing?

Is my heart rejoicing?

And are my eyes enlightening?

I uh uh enlightening the eyes.

I I don't know what that means exactly in the context, but potentially my outlook on life.

How am I looking at life?

So am I full of despair?

Am I simply sad all the time?

Am I making foolish decisions?

Is my soul always downcast?

If so, uh, not always, there are seasons where believers go through that, uh, and there's faithful ways to do that.

But all that to say, uh someone who's devoted to the word of God, we should be seeing these things play out in our lives.

Let me ask a uh um so I'm doing what you guys should be doing.

I'm gonna I'm gonna go off of this.

So, what does devotion of the to the word look like practically for you?

Yes, uh well, go ahead.

How how do you read the word, meditate on the word?

I'm just trying to think through a bit more practical things.

So, what does devotion look like?

What what practical tools do you use or methods for staying in the word?

I I'm not a good one, I I change often.

So it depends on the season.

I am currently um in a season of starting back through the gospels, and I'm just reading I read a chapter a day in the morning.

That evening I read the next chapter, and then the next morning I read that same one.

So I get it evening morning, next one evening morning, and I just do the one and I am trying to why do you do that?

Well, it gives me time to think about what I've read and then pray about it, think about, digest, and the next day I read it again.

Um, and so I was trying to read too much.

There's nothing wrong with reading like reading the Bible in a year, you know.

I think that that's a great goal, it's a great plan.

For me, it turned into work and it turned into checking a box, and I was not I didn't find I was getting much out of it uh as much as I should.

It was enjoyful.

And so I I had to back way up.

I started from the basics, I started from the beginning, and I'm just doing a chapter, and I'm just and that's it.

And and it's I have it's been more peaceful, more more, more fruitful for me.

Um and then I have and then on top of that, my other is I'm going back through my highlights.

I don't know, a lot of people use like the Bible app and you highlight passages in scripture, and I'm going back through my highlights, and I just think about the things and the seasons of where I was when I highlighted some of those verses, and it's encouraging to think back and see where God uh how God used his word in those moments and those times for where I am today.

A lot of it's slow.

I think so many people think and read the Bible, and I'm gonna have it, I'm I'm gonna read it, I'm gonna memorize it, and and then next week they they don't for whatever reason life in two days hasn't changed.

You know, I think it's it's it's a it's a progression and it's over time and it's slow, and it's and I tell the youth back there all the time, I was like, you meditate on God's word and you read God's word, and then one day someone asks you a question and you answer in God's word, and you're like, Oh, where did that come from?

I don't even know how I did that, right?

It's just it just but it's not there if you're not spending time on it.

You know, you've all we've probably a lot of us talk to we I know I think about Phil Newton, you know, a guy at the Pillar Network.

He he talks in scripture, you know.

It's like everything out of his word is a verse.

So that sounds like this verse.

That sounds like this verse, and it's it's encouraging and challenging in the same time, but it didn't just happen.

I mean, he he spent years in God's word, you know.

So that's been uh I have to catch myself on the I'll get overwhelmed by what I don't know.

If that can happen with anything you're seeking to intake, it uh set scripture aside for it.

Just so if I so lately it has been for me, um this is not even necessarily a suggestion, but I'm thinking through what what books or what sections of scripture am I least familiar with?

I want to go pursue those for now.

I'm not saying that's what you should use all the time.

I have my go-tos that I return to.

I have a running list in my notes app for various things for myself.

I use them professionally, but just take that off the table of having a hard day.

I go to that note.

And just over the years, I'm I'm not always great at it, but I try to, if I come across a passage, I go that this corrects, this comforts, this encourages, this rebukes, whatever.

And uh, and then I've got myself a short list.

So it's the I've I for whatever reason have never highlighted in my Bible if I just make separate things.

You do what you want.

I don't know.

One time I had a professor jokingly say, uh, you know, it might be well, you know what might be easier than highlighting the important parts, it's just sharpie out the unimportant ones.

And he was it was tongue in cheek, but for some reason I went, and I haven't highlighted my Bible since.

Don't don't do that.

That's it's perfectly fine to highlight in there.

I just it was a weird I sent him an email about it a while ago of like, you know, you don't want to even remember this.

But so I'm seeking out areas of scripture that I I've just gone, I don't know that I could tell you what goes on for 20 chapters here.

So somewhat convicted by that of my own.

If I want to be fully saturated in the Word of the Lord, I want to be saturated by the full word of the Lord.

There's some downline practical advantages there.

Scripture interprets scripture.

The the whole you start to see the whole narrative arc of the continuity of God's redemptive history.

If you just have a working knowledge, don't worry about being a scholar, just a working knowledge.

If you can kind of sketch in this the first quarter, these things happen, second, third, fourth, and then here's how they're connected.

And I'm I'm I'm trying to fill in some of my gaps recently, but yes, I am also prone to, I will read, I just I'm a reader and I will take that to scripture if I'm not careful.

So I'll just consume, just wrap it.

I can I'll read up four of Paul's letters sitting in the hunting blind and then probably miss all the deer.

And then but but then also go, uh cool, I read four books of the Bible while I sat out here this afternoon, but I mean what yeah.

So I gotta I have to guard against just high consumption.

Um,

A couple of things.

Um, how old are you girls?

Six, eleven.

I I'll I'll turn it to you guys first.

I just first want to commend you and encourage you.

And you said sometimes you miss or whatever.

Uh don't ever be discouraged by that.

You're being a faithful mom.

And so I I hope you you feel the Lord's delight in what you're doing.

Because there are a lot of parents who don't do that.

And so praise God for your faithfulness and wanting to read the Word of God with your girls as much as possible, trying to do it daily, taking it a chapter at a time.

So I commend you, praise God, keep up that work.

Uh you'll see the fruit.

I mean, you're you're probably seeing it right now, but you definitely will see it down the road.

And so um yeah, praise God for being you're being a faithful mom.

Yeah, I was hoping y'all uh y'all have some mileage on me.

Uh mine are five and seven, so we're waiting to see what the results are.

But it's uh yeah, I am I am frankly probably uh less consistent than I should be about longer form Bible reading with them.

Mandy is very good.

I try to be good.

Uh she just seems to be oriented, like her mind's always on that.

Of um she's she's good at finding ways to point out scriptural truths or corrections and normal conversations, which I know you're, I'm sure you're doing.

I mean some of them this counsel may just be obvious sorts of things.

She did something that uh recently that uh she ordered a it's a I don't know where she got it, I could find out.

It's a jar that's a magnet, and there's fruits of the spirit, and then she has a printout of the fruits of the spirit and what that looks like in practical behavior.

And as we and we just try and call it out.

Hey, that was you just you just were exercising.

Now, it's my kids aren't saved.

What's the fruit of the spirit in a in a in that I well?

But we can uh Tim Keller's wife wrote a little thing on the back of the New City Catechism that says something along the lines of um in in addressing change challenge, and it's a bit different for your kids, but she said what you can do is whether or not they're understanding all of it now, you're you're filling the fireplace up with quality seasoned firewood.

And when the spirit catches hold of that, they already have this baseline, the language is familiar, the passages come to life.

Um your girls are saved, but as you know, we're just as we age, some of those things make sense.

So I would encourage you, even if it feels like it's going over their head, there's a little bit of press through.

The other bit is a bit of a pitch.

That that brown bookshelf out there will have stuff on it on Sunday, and I will speak to.

We are ramping up our family discipleship equipping.

We'll start doing um uh every other month.

Parents hang out after service.

We're gonna do round table, we'll discuss different things, and we're gonna encourage one another, and uh, but we're gonna put uh books that we have read that we know what's in them, uh the the resources, those sorts of things.

But the Shah's are we we have not found uh a particular program or curriculum that I thought this is gonna work for everyone, but the I've talked myself into a corner.

I wish my wife was up here.

Um my wife homeschools, and so that's one of the one of the benefits that we have is she gets to spend extensive amount of time with the kids every day around the table in the word.

Um everyone from our two and four-year-old all the way up to our 18-year-old, which can be very difficult, all different ages.

Um I think if you were if she were up here, one of the things that she would um encourage you is to not don't just stick to the New Testament, don't be afraid of going to the Old Testament.

Um, some of the riches, um just slowly going through the book of Genesis.

And and and our kids need to to know the reality of being what what does it mean?

Even for for for a young seven, eleven-year-old, I believe are the ages you said, what does it mean to be made in the image of God?

What does it mean to be made female?

Those are important things.

Are your kids in public school?

Homeschool's okay.

Walk into the book of Genesis.

I think the other thing, maybe the most powerful thing, mom, is um is for you to walk it out before them.

You know, so as you're as you're reading it with them, you're not only trying to help them see the truths that are in it, um, and maybe some of the things that the world might believe in that you want to combat against.

Um, but okay, how how does this affect me today?

How am I applying this to my life?

How is how is this word actually changing me, transforming me, convicting me of my sin, encouraging me?

Um the more and more they get to see that.

It goes back to even what I said a moment ago, right?

How do we know that we actually believe these things if we live it out?

And I think that's the most powerful things, a powerful thing that your girls can see is a mom who actually believes what she's reading and actually is living in light of it.

So um, yeah, read it with them as you're doing it and show them how you're applying it.

And um live in wonder of it, pray in response to it, worship the Lord, like teach them that it's not just learning knowledge, but um one of the most beautiful things that my wife does is all right, read the word, we're gonna sing a hymn together, we're gonna pray in response to the word, right?

Those things are instructing them as to what she truly believes about the word.

And so those are some of the things I'd encourage you in.

Yeah, we we we we have some recommended resources coming, but I can't rattle them off off the top of my head.

They'll be out there for yeah, the they're coming in terms of, and also here's some things that we found to be helpful, but I would reiterate the um without we Mandy and I fail at this regularly.

Uh the the um but something I've we've tried to do is make faith-based decisions out loud, and there's not anything too small, so it's maybe not that I'm sitting them down every time and going, Mommy and I got our tax return.

We're gonna open scripture and decide what to do with it.

But uh we'll talk about it in the car.

Uh you know, like where we know the the where we know they're that's a silly example.

It's just I got an email from my accountant today.

It's on my mind.

But the but the even if it's um, yeah, the I get, I don't know.

I again I'm gonna fail, but to Michael's point, just living it in front of them is even, and I don't even want to lean on this, but for as much as this is worth anything, the data suggests that the kids who either don't go astray or go astray in a much smaller way, um, the the greatest common denominator is they saw it at home.

It had nothing to do with their church, it had nothing to do with their private school, homeschool, public school, catechism, none of it.

It was the the overwhelming data from those young people was uh I knew the word because my parents taught it, but I saw them, I saw their faith be real.

Um not perfect, not awesome, but just they would verbalize.

I think about this one a lot, and I probably still miss it.

Even to my five-year-old, if I sin in front of her or at her, I've got to get myself under the control of scripture and go repent to my five-year-olds, no matter what.

Like it doesn't matter that I'm the daddy and I should, and that you just have to do what I even if if I sinned, I need to address that.

I'm sure I miss that more than I would be comfortable if somebody shined a mirror on me, but that one has been important to me for whatever reason.

Maybe because I didn't, I feel like I didn't experience that.

So you you react to some of the things you didn't have, but what about you?

You've got a boy that's about to have figured out.

Yeah, there's there's a lot there, right?

If you once you get it figured out, let me know.

But the I will say a couple things I've picked up in the last couple of years that have been super helpful, real quick.

One, I heard uh a pastor say one time with children, once they're above the age of 14, they know what you think.

So you don't have to tell them anymore what you think.

They know you can ask them, what do you think I'm gonna say there?

And they'll tell you most of the time, right?

So creating an environment with questions, you said use questions and make them come up with a response versus you telling them what they need to do, because in that case, you're creating or taking away the mineral thought pattern to do that on their own when they're just looking to someone else to tell them what to do versus uh my kids now.

I'll say, Well, what what made you do that?

Or why do you think that?

Or what what do you he'll say such and such happen at school?

I'm like, Oh, that's what do you think about that, right?

You know, and he knows what I think, so I don't have to tell him that anymore.

Um, which and that's been super helpful.

That has been I mean uh right I'm I'm still a dad, right?

There are times when you just kind of have to help him make those decisions, you know, because they but uh I think they're it definitely will change the way you approach some of that, right?

With a little bit of uh level of hey you've you've gotta learn to make these decisions on your own.

Um I can tell you what I would do if you're asking me, right?

You know, but it is most of the time they know.

And and and and it's good too, it's it's times, and then also the uh um showing Grace, uh, where there is when there have been times when my oldest has come to me and confessed uh a struggle or a sin, right?

And differently than my parents probably would have responded.

I'm like, hey, I'm I'm sorry, right?

I'm sorry.

Uh but that's unfortunately I'm that maybe something I struggle with, or that could be something you struggle with for a long time.

But there what do you think we can do?

What can we do to help you see it coming and to put barriers or guardrails in the way you know to get there before the you get to a point where it becomes a problem?

You know, but having a conversation has been huge.

We talk about things in our house that people are like, how in the world do you talk about that?

Why don't y'all talk about those things?

Right?

Yeah, we talk about everything in our house.

Sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's weird.

But my kids know that they can come talk to us about those things.

And um, I I don't know.

I mean, that's been I think the grace has been helpful.

And some of that's just me maturing too, because with your firstborn, you just don't know what you don't know because no one tells you.

And so you screw them all up, right?

And they become typical firstborns that just want to follow the rules, do what I'm told, you know, because that's what we think we have to do.

The the I think the value of saying I don't know to a child is probably bigger than we realize.

That was impactful to me the first time I got around adults that were just willing to say, I don't know, uh, but let's find out.

Rather than just this bravado that we bring to it, or uh, or sometimes the insecurity that just makes us shut it down.

I don't know, we don't need to be talking about that.

Is not the right answer.

It's just not, unless it's just something they're not, you know what I mean?

Like there's some but the to me where I have felt most uncomfortable with even my five and seven-year-old, and they're not asking crazy stuff yet, but the is upon reflection, it's uh oh, I don't know, or I haven't, or I haven't fully formed a thought there, or and I and then I go, oh, I'm angsty, and I go, why just why does that need just I don't know, go find out.

Like we go find we're available to you, the be careful about just googling, um, because anyone can post a theological opinion, and almost more dangerously, you can confirm any theological opinion.

Uh and then another one that I have really enjoyed.

We I think in where you can, you're the primary disciple maker, but also we are part of a covenant body of believers.

Lean on it, enjoy it.

It's not I'm I'm not necessarily farming stuff out to other people, but um occasionally your boys will come to me with the most profound questions, and it's uh like, oh man, that's neat that you're comfortable, like you, like your dad's friends, uh you know, or like or your mom's friends, or there's just this church family that so they see mom and dad, but then they also have.

And there's people in our life that we can't, they're bad, they're they're counterproductive there, and there's about nothing we can do about it by blood, by law, by address, whatever.

It's just part of life.

But but we come here and we go, this is a place where we should feel empowered by one another to go.

Hey, I want you to also see other people living this out.

It's not just you.

Let's roll down maybe um just to switch the topic a hair, but it's it's on topic, um, just about the spiritual disciplines, because we've we've kind of come over there.

Um that there's the the so spiritual disciplines, this is an exhaustive list, but the kind of, I mean, Bible reading, prayer, uh uh, worship gatherer, like there, depending on who you ask or what you Google, the spiritual disciplines are a different list, but there's a core here.

There's this idea of not things that I do to earn grace, but things I do in response to grace and things that I want to discipline myself to in order to cultivate as much as I have any power to do, to use the grace that's been given to me to cultivate a deeper relationship with the Lord, to discipline myself.

Some of it's self-some of those disciplines are self-denial, those sorts of things.

What happens is go to, I don't know if you can anymore, Barnes and Noble Books a Million, the Christian Living section is largely a lot of that in one way or another, whether those authors even realize it kind of only speak to spiritual disciplines, but it's very open-ended.

Um, particularly, uh we'll have to define this a bit, but uh a lot of it has recently drawn from uh Christian Christian mysticism.

Uh and so is that so what is Christian mysticism?

I know you guys uh previously kind of had to do a deep dive there.

You may be the most well equipped there to at least define, and then is that a problem?

So let's just be mindful of as I pursue, I want to, I wanna oh I want to increase my prayer life, my Bible reading, whatever, being careful about just grabbing any book.

Making you aware of some of the things that are contours out there now.

So, what do we mean by Christian mysticism?

I don't have a definition for it.

It's a good good question.

So the there's yes, the the mysticism exists in all kinds of religions.

There's a reason why we're calling it Christian mysticism.

Um a lot of it is uh uh the it leans on experiential encounter encounters with God that are sit and wait.

Um and often devoid of the word.

And devoid yeah.

You're leaning on I'm just I I have a feeling, I I I've received a sign, what have you.

It's not that the Lord never gives those, but are that should that be normative?

Um and and where has that played out?

Where have we seen that?

And then maybe I don't think we should be shy about naming particular books if some come to mind as your shepherds seeking to give fair warning.

Yeah.

So rather than saying I want to cultivate a relationship with the Lord through consuming his word, writing it on my heart, uh, prayer according to scripture, submitting myself to a body of believers, regular worship, service, uh fasting in appropriate ways, perhaps.

Um I'm gonna I'm going to just cry out, Lord, help me feel you.

Uh again, I love there's moments where I feel it and I cherish those, but I've had to learn to be careful not to like let that be a definition of my spiritual health or growth.

Yeah.

I think one of the things I would uh the probably the most important thing I would say is that the the primary way, if I could use if the if that's the best way to phrase it, the primary way that God has revealed himself to us is through his word.

Um so any practice that is devoid of the word of God, I would say be v on one hand very careful, on the other hand, you may want to run from or seek a better a better application of practicing.

Um I wonder if it might be helpful to to give a an example here.

So so here's one uh a way to read scripture, a practice called lecture divina.

Anyone heard of that?

Yes.

So it's it's you you you read you read a passage, you may read one or two verses, and then you just want to sit in silence and wait and wait for the Lord to speak in response to that word.

Now, if we have the Spirit of God living in us, I I believe that He can and often does do that.

Um where where I often see this becoming dangerous is especially with younger Christians who are immature and don't know the Word of God, is is we we read a verse or two without having any understanding of the context of why that passage was written, and even having a primary um interpretation and application of that text.

So then we we take it to the realm of a very subjective realm where what does this mean to me?

What what is the what does the Lord want to say to me in response to this text?

And oftentimes it has nothing to do with what the text is actually saying.

Um and that's actually a very dangerous thing, and and where where people get themselves into a lot of trouble.

And so that's that's one very practical example of of mysticism versus just holding on to the plain word of God.

Go ahead.

Yeah, are you also talking about like exeget versus G in that part of the word?

No, but but that good.

That'll happen.

That'll happen.

I mean, I think that's the that's the potential.

So if the exegesis is let the word speak, isegesis is I'm gonna I'm gonna make the word fit my preferred application here.

That's a gross flattening of what that is, but the isogesis is what we want to be careful of.

But I think that is often what ends up happening is uh, Lord, I could really use a sign flipping open, scrolling like this.

And often it's like sometimes I'll hear people go, and I just I pointed to a verse and it spoke right to my life, and we go there and go, the verse above it and below it makes it super obvious this has nothing to do with with this situation.

And I I'm I don't want to discount that you got comfort from the word of the Lord, but you will act on something that was not the intended reading of that passage.

At that point, we're we're we're treating the word of God like a fortune cookie.

Just open it up, okay.

This yeah, well um, I think that uh I'll be bold, I might I don't know why I'm worried about ruffling feathers.

The I think sometimes this the the mysticism will sneak its way and has snuck its way into a lot of modern music sets on Sunday morning by the environment I have I I really flare at when I get feedback of the lights need to be, the volume needs to be.

Needs to be, the style needs to be so that we will experience or feel or encounter the Lord.

We go, yikes.

Find that in scripture.

To me, that is a practical expression of whether we mean to or not, some idea of mysticism is if we can create the right environments, the Lord will move.

We go, what do you make of the churches meeting in basements in fear for their lives?

Are they not encountering the Lord because they don't have smoke machines?

And I don't want to get legalistic.

We've got LED lights on behind us that are meant to create an environment.

I'm not saying that we're just devoid of all that.

It's also not just monastic level, let's strip away anything and everything.

We want beautiful things and we want appropriate things that aren't distractions.

Uh, but the early church probably weren't sitting in cushioned seats in air conditioning with terrarium lights down shining down.

Like we have we've done a lot of things that are are not sinful, but if we're we're not careful, you just hear it a lot, especially in the Bible Belt from oh, I love the the Lord is really moving at that church.

And frankly, sometimes what that means is they're really good at creating an environment during the worship service.

It's not always sinful.

That will start to trickle us into my relationship with the Lord depends on how I felt at the end of service.

And and sometimes the Lord will, I mean, I've just the Lord will swell my emotions at times uh in in a dorning response.

And I think sometimes He we see it all over in scripture, the Lord frustrated them.

So ironically, perhaps I would say to those people, hey, sometimes I feel frustrated and I'm raging against, and that's the Lord given me that too, to discipline and turn me and correct me.

That's not less of an encounter with God because it wasn't a positive emotion.

Sometimes he's using my negative ones to get my attention or what have you.

It's not all emotional stuff.

There's um, yeah, we just we just want to be careful, want to be careful about uh the the there's the word of the Lord has a lot to say about daily life and practical expressions of that.

We call we'll call them common graces, we'll call them normal expressions of worship and grace, these things that maybe don't seem exciting, but frankly, I think it's because we've come up in an era of church culture where we have to this the thing has to be cutting edge and catchy and different and unique and creative, and that will help us create something, and that's so just dangerous.

Um this is where my mind went to with that question.

I'm thinking of a particular author.

Uh it's fine, it's fine to especially with the younger people.

How many of you have read Practicing the Way by uh Comer, John Mark Comer?

Anyone?

Then never mind.

I was gonna say a couple of things.

It's not necessary, no one's read it.

Don't read it.

Um, that's it's not a bad book.

Um my daughter's read it twice.

Uh I re I've read it twice, once, just very quick glance, and thought, well, it's a decent book, a good primer on discipleship or spiritual disciplines.

And then more and more people read it and were asking questions.

So I read it a second time with a more critical eye, and it was like, oh yeah, no, no, no to this, no to that.

Um, so just just uh there's a lot of books out there.

Um, a good thing to be thinking about every once in a while is like bring it up to your pastors and be like, hey, I'm reading such and such a book by this author.

What do you think about it?

Um because there's a lot out there that isn't necessarily bad, but they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll bring in certain things that that uh we would definitely think aren't helpful.

And so it that that that there's just so many, and the same goes with podcasts and YouTube videos.

There's just so much out there, and a lot of it is good, but there's it's mixed in with error as well.

And so just by way of uh uh warning, just be careful what you're what you're listening to, what you're you're you're taking in, because there's just so much information out there.

So just yeah, we the the there's it's always I had uh I had a professor recently mention that in response to he was just saying that someone was accusing him of being grumpy and a hard nose.

They said we we we've gotta build the leftward wall.

Forget left, right, don't attach it to politics.

It's just for the sake of said every great drift that turned into error, that turned into heresy started with something small.

So just being on guard.

Uh a common one in Maui that's not gonna be here was we we were regularly, I went through a season where I was getting a lot of questions about the idea.

There was a bunch of groups on the island starting up Christian yoga groups.

I go, is that okay?

I go, well, if you're exercising, fine.

And if the idea is, we'll do Bible study first.

But some of them were saying, hey, let's let's synthesize some of the spiritual practices of yoga.

They're so beneficial to my Christian faith.

We go, ugh, um, we'll be real careful about what feels benign on the front end that will draw our attention away of like, well, if the Lord hasn't given us those practices in scripture or hasn't encouraged them anywhere, just because it maybe helps you, the this we will approach our faith with pragmatism, which is just not appropriate.

This, like, well, this seems to work, so it must be okay.

Ugh, right?

Like it's uh, I don't know, if you put diesel in your car, it'll drive for a minute.

Like it right, it'll go before it dies for a minute.

Uh it's not the same thing as it's fine, you can put whatever you want in there.

That's a niche analogy, but maybe that you get what I'm getting at.

Of just, I don't know.

I think sometimes I we get accused of being hardline staunch, uh whatever, but it's I I think there's some value.

I think that's appropriate, especially as shepherds, but I'm encouraging you to do that too, of be critical.

There's just so many resources out and so many good ones, not to mention there's 2,000 years of faithful brothers and sisters who have written works that you can still buy.

We don't, it doesn't need to be the new book, uh, that don't settle for because there is there is a treasure trove.

I also something I've noticed, it's not that they don't exist, but a lot of times popular books on spiritual disciplines will pop up by an author who that's their only uh resume is oh, I'm I know a lot about prayer, and that's and then you look into them, and that's kind of all they don't have any background.

It's not that nothing good can come from that, but I would rather read a book on prayer from a theologian that I know and trust his theology, has a wide range of other material that I know his teaching and his approach to scripture.

That's my that's my practical counsel there is if you want to look if you want a book on prayer, MacArthur Piper, uh Sinclair Ferguson, the elders have been reading a lot of Sinclair Ferguson, just get on Amazon and buy any, like just get a couple Sinclair Ferguson books.

It was just beautiful, but it's deep thinking theology that then they will treat a topic incredibly well.

Again, I don't I don't want to knock your favorite author if they wrote a life-changing book for you and it's the only thing they wrote, but just some pragmatic things that that are or some helpful ways to kind of differentiate.

And as Michael said, feel free to ask us.

It might take me a minute, but I'll ask if I haven't read it, I'll ask around.

If nobody has read it, one of us will take time to skim it or to read it.

Um that's part of what we offer to you as shepherds seeking to guide good intake.

We've got time for another.

We had eight topics, we made it through two.

Mind if I follow up on that?

Yeah.

Um a question.

Um, the Lord has given all throughout Christian history gifted minds that have blessed the church with their writing.

And so just want to throw out to you guys outside of the Bible, what have been some of the most helpful books?

Like if someone's thinking, I I want to learn more, what book should I pick up?

Like what have been those books that have been instrumental in your life uh throughout the Christi through throughout your Christian life that have blessed you that you would say, Man, I think every believer should read this?

Uh the one for me, and it it depends, right?

It kind of based on season of life where you are, you can read a book and then someone else read and get nothing out of it.

For me, one of the biggest ones that I go to all the time is uh Disciplines of Grace by Jerry Bridges.

It's a phenomenal book, phenomenal book, and it just drives home the point that so many uh limitations we put on ourselves because we think we're the ones doing it, right?

And and God's blessings in our life are not based on our performance.

God's blessings in our life are based on what Jesus Christ did, and it's just based on our faith and trust in Him.

Not just because you're having a good day doesn't mean God's gonna use you any more than when you're having a bad day, right?

We place those limitations, but it's just a it's the disciplines of grace by Jerry Bridges.

It's a phenomenal book, phenomenal.

It's not a big read, it's not a hard read, it's not one of those you have to underline and go back and forth.

It's just a uh it's it's that's one of my all-time uh favorites.

And uh I go I read that one probably once every couple years, you know, just pick up something new.

The the two that always that come to mind, the that concise theology by J.I.

Packer in terms of that is a I have it on in digital form, so it's always in my phone uh on my computer, and then I have hard copies on my desk uh in my truck, and I mean that.

And I've I have kept that book around me for since I was assigned it in college 15 years ago.

It's not the end-all be-all, but it is one of the I think it's my favorite.

I won't say it's the I don't know if I would, yeah, I don't know.

It's my favorite in terms of he had it's what 150 chapters or something.

We went through it in in on on Wednesday night.

Um is a good jumping off point, and each chapter is a two or three pages, but 60% of the word count is scripture references.

So it's a wonderful jumping off point to orient yourself to uh different theological topics, but then he he encourages you to go find them.

And J.I.

Packer is just his yeah, order any of his stuff.

He passed away recently, he was just a really brilliant guy.

And then one that I come back to frequently in the last several years is um when uh when people are big and god is small by Ed Welch.

Uh that one is that one's often assigned in counseling settings, uh, but I find it helpful for my spiritual health.

Uh a lot of it is uh addressing uh people pleasing nature for one, but then also confronting the pride that at the core of that for me, like often for me, is that's where my pride shows up is in the people pleasing.

Is that it's it's not that I even necessarily sometimes desire to please people, but I it makes me feel good when they're pleased with me.

Uh and that book confronts a lot of that, which I find when I'm confronted with that, of I need to be most fearful of the of the Lord's view of my life and not anyone else's.

The rest of my spiritual health improves when I've re-or so I reorient regularly.

Ed Welch, When People Are Big And God Is Small, very helpful.

A little niche, but helpful.

I'm typing here and trying to find out when this was written, but uh three books come to my mind.

Um, The Pursuit of God by Tozer is the book that I'd recommend.

I think that was written in the 50s, 1948.

Um it's not a long, long read, it's really short.

Um, but if you're looking, you talk about like deep theology with experiential, like not looking for an experience, but actually pursuing God, growing in intimacy with the Lord that's based on the word of God.

So it's not just here's some theology, but but actually growing in intimacy with the Lord.

That's the book you want to read.

Um, written in 1948, but it's not hard to read.

It's not like it's difficult, dense, it's it, but it's one that I go back to often.

Uh so The Pursuit of God by A.

W.

Tozer, uh Knowing God by J.I.

Packer is a little thicker.

Um, but again, if you're looking for a great book on the doctrine of God that isn't just super heady but also very applicable, uh, I agree with you, concise theology is is concise but dense.

Like how that guy writes so much in two pages.

I mean, so every time you have a question, what what the doctrine of baptism, what does that teach again?

Boom.

Maybe that's not the best analogy because he's Anglican, but um uh best example I should say.

But it's a phenomenal book.

Um so sorry, the other one was uh some more uh newer books.

Um Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortland.

If you have not read that, you should read it.

If you're struggling with to uh in understanding the love of God for you, um read gentle and lowly.

It's gonna apply the work of the gospel to your life in precious ways.

Um that one has been huge.

I um I didn't know this about myself until somewhat recently.

That I am I didn't know how hard I was on myself.

Um, because I think to me, sometimes I will equate that with obedience is just I'm I'm really beating myself up.

And gentle and lowly whipped me back into like, hey, Jesus is gentle and he invites you.

I I've like I have this propensity to come to Jesus like I know I've already beat myself, like like and it's yeah, super helpful.

I mean just gentle and lowly.

I think it's one of those books that like 50 years from now people will be still be saying, Yeah, you should go read that, the way we talk about Pursuit of God or one of these other ones.

The last one I'd say, a newer book, uh Dark Cloud's Deep Mercy by Mark Vrogopp.

Um if you've never read a book on lament, um what is lament?

Why are there so many of them in the book of Psalms?

Um what does it look like for me to bring my frustration, my anger, my questions to the Lord in a way that is biblically faithful and appropriate?

Um read that book.

Uh it'll give you both a great, great concept understanding of what uh lament is scripturally speaking, but then how to do it appropriately.

Um if you're ever angry at the Lord and you don't know what to do with that, this book will help you know how to actually faithfully do that.

Uh, because the scriptures tell us to.

And so I think that's been super helpful for me the last few years as well.

Utilize the resource wall.

That's the the those books out there aren't the only good books.

We we are try to be careful about like we need to hit some big things.

We use them as grab this.

Um, but they're out there because we think highly of them, so feel free to, those are for you.

Even read the one on elders and deacons.

Like, I those copies never get taken.

It's like I why would you not want to know what what scripture says about the offices of leadership in the church?

And then one that clearly has resonated with this congregation is uh it's not the only book out there on it, but that I've had to restock it a bunch.

That little one by David Pallison called God's Grace and Your Suffering.

I read that when when my my dear friend passed away uh just in response to like I just was desperate for uh Lord, I know the answers and I cannot seat them in my soul.

Um He's who I would usually call to do that, and I and and I just order that book on a whim, and I mine is wore out.

I just I can't read it enough.

And it's not the last word on suffering, but it's a good primer because it's this big.

And David Pallison is a wonderful writer, he's pastoral.

You can it's almost like he's speaking comfort to you as you read.

Um, and and it's neat.

So utilize the resource wall, that's what that's there for.

It's a jumping off point, and then um a wonderful little tip, and then I'll I gotta wrap it up.

Look at the footnotes in the bibliography.

You go, I finished that book, I want to read more.

So either get more from that author or look at who they're referencing.

That's that's the best way to find new books, is the old school way.

Those little tiny words at the very bottom or at the very back, the bibliography.

Every book should is supposed to have those in there if you've quoted things.

Uh, and go find if you thought that book was good, that author was inspired by some other writer.

So go chase, just chase that chain all through the footnotes.

It's it's quite helpful.

Let me pray for us.

I've got a jet, somebody's I'm helping somebody on the side of the road.

So they're fine without me.

But I'm gonna just if you wanted to catch me, call me um or I'll I'll call you back.

Father, thank you um for this evening.

We thank you for as we just reflect, we thank you for your words.

Uh may we never grow weary of of discussing and thinking about how to more deeply settle into the grace poured out on us through your living and active words, that you that you left us with a a record to sustain us until you call us home or you come and get us.

May we may we not take it for granted or or treat it as less than your very living and active word.

It is the most obvious and regular way that you care for us is that you have given us you have given us of yourself.

And so may we uh continue to develop a passion for it in seasons where uh we feel dry and and we can barely stand to open it.

May we be encouraged by our church family to press on uh and to return to you in that same grace and mercy when we do open it back up to open it expectantly because we don't want to just say it's a living and active word of God.

I want to open scripture expecting to hear from you because I know I will.

We thank you for those opportunities uh and and these people here tonight who who care enough uh uh about you to to continue to sit through our lectures.

So wherever we're going this evening, carry us there safely, and may we honor you with our lives uh with the rest of the week.

In Jesus' name we pray.

Amen.