The Connection Between Peacemaking and Discipleship: Todd Deatherage

Brandon Billings: Welcome to the Hopeful Church. Our episode will begin in a minute, but first, we wanted to ask you to take just a second to review our show. Whether you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or another platform, we'd really appreciate it if you gave us a review. Reviews help us reach more listeners with stories of hope emerging from the church. We're so grateful for your support. Now, for today's episode, our host Daryl Gualtney is having a conversation with Todd Detheridge. Todd Detheridge is the co-founder of Telos. A Washington, D.C. based nonprofit dedicated to the formation of communities of American peacemakers across lines of difference to bring healing to conflict at home and abroad. Todd's passion is for helping Christians embrace Jesus' call to be peacemakers essential to their discipleship journeys, which is the topic of our conversation today. In this episode, you'll hear about the difference between hope and optimism, what we can learn from Christ's example of peacemaking. How uncomfortable moments can bring understanding and stories about churches who are peacemakers in their own communities. Here's our conversation with Todd Detherridge. Welcome to the Hopeful Church podcast. I'm Dr. Darrell Gualtney. I am the executive director of the Minch Center for Church Leadership here at Belmont University. And our host today, our guest today, is Todd Detherridge, who is the executive director and co-founder of Tulos. I met Todd ⁓ last year when I went on a trip ⁓ in the American South, a reconciliation and peacemaking trip led by his organization, T Los. And I've been getting to know him. And I just wanted to have a conversation with him about the work that he does and his interest in reconciliation in the world that we live in today. So I'll just begin with a simple question. ⁓ Todd, if you would ⁓ tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you're doing at T Loss and how you got into it. Yeah, thanks so much. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation today. It's been great spending time with you more recently and I'm looking forward to doing more of that ⁓ in the future. ⁓ I grew up in Arkansas. ⁓ just ⁓ I'm I'm I'm in the DC area now, so Tennessee is the only thing that kind of separates my home in Virginia from the where I grew up in Arkansas, but Tennessee's a long state. I've driven through it many times on the way on the way back and forth between the two. ⁓ I I was you know, I grew up in a Christian home, Christian family, grew up in the church, and faith was always pretty important to me, ⁓ in in my life, but it was only when I came to Washington to work on Capitol Hill and ultimately into the State Department that I really had to to I really had to grapple with the complexity of the world that felt like ⁓ my faith was not quite adequate to d like my theology actually wasn't quite adequate w to deal with all that. And it really ⁓ kind of sent me on a d on a deeper faith journey. And the more I I w I kind of went deeper in trying to trying to understand what it meant to truly follow Jesus in the world, and to kind of allow myself to be formed more and more in a disciple like way into the ⁓ into the way of Jesus, it I it actually created ⁓ an this ⁓ a different way of kind of seeing ⁓ and experiencing the complexity that I was you know I was, you know, struggling with. And that really led me ultimately to trying to take seriously a lot of the things Jesus said, but really what he was trying to say when he talked about loving your enemies and when he talked about, ⁓ blessed are the peacemakers and so many of those other kind of upside down things that ⁓ that he taught in the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes in particular. And so that journey just kind of led me to a kind of a d again, a different place in my faith, but it really gave me ⁓ it put it made some claims on me that made me kind of think about how I live my life ⁓ differently. So that's that's kind of the short version of it. But the more particular version is that I you I was I was working on the hill for a for a Republican ⁓ member of Congress and and then a senator and ⁓ and he cared very much about ⁓ human rights in China and a not a lot of Republicans did at in that moment and the issues we were dealing with around that. And he began to work really closely with some very liberal Democrat senators on this who cared in the same way on this issue. They didn't agree on almost anything else, but on this they found a common agreement and they could defend human rights and human dignity and ⁓ together ⁓ and and I really loved both doing that work of human rights and human dignity and also doing it in a collaborative way with people that are different. So that really was kind of the first thing that started to trip switches for me about how to kind of live out my faith in the work I was doing in a way that was that that felt like it was you consistent with these things that I was kind of experiencing and learning. And then I that took me into the human rights work at the State Department, which ultimately took me to the Middle East And ultimately it took me to Israel and Palestine and I began to see that reality and America's ⁓ all the passions that we bring to that issue of Israel and Palestine and all the resources that we apply to it, and the way in which our our passions and our resources ⁓ may be well intended, but they end up ⁓ working out they work themselves out in ways that are very detrimental to people who live there and very ⁓ often very the op very much the opposite of what it looks like to to ⁓ work for peace and justice in the land and the flourishing of all the people and human dignity for ⁓ respected for all people. So that ultimately is how I got into the work of ⁓ co founding Telos with Greg Khalil back in two thousand nine was out of those experiences in the Middle East in Israel and Palestine. So that that's a lot, but there's a there's a there's a and there's a lot more to that story, but that's a that's the briefest version I can do right now. Yeah, origin stories always complex and interesting. Right. And you how long ago did you found Telos? ⁓ we started in January of two thousand nine. Just a I was a political appointee in the Bush administration and that's the that's when the Bush administration ended and and and this was the next thing I did. So just out of that, ⁓ we we launched in in that ⁓ January two thousand nine. So now over what is it, ⁓ Seventeen years or so. Seventeen years later. You developed a a broad body of work. And ⁓ you don't specifically work with just church groups, say mission trips or something like that. That's not really what you do. You work with, as I understand, ⁓ leaders, ⁓ pastors. You're gonna take a group of my pastors, ⁓ to ⁓ in August, we're gonna go to Northern Ireland and Ireland together, ⁓ pastors that I work with. ⁓ but you also work with ⁓ a year ago I I went on a trip to the American South with a bunch of with other leaders, some who were pastors, some who were other kind of leaders. ⁓ so you while you don't work specifically with, let's say, groups of people from the church, you work with a lot of Christians. How does the work of Telos complement the work of the church? Well, I I w I believe that a central function of the church is to to disciple a community of people into the way of Jesus, kind of simply put. ⁓ Yeah. And so we believe at Telos, ⁓ and one of my real convictions ⁓ as a Christian in wanting to start a work like this was this conviction that peacemaking is very central to Christian discipleship, but it's probably the most neglected aspect of Christian discipleship. ⁓ so one of our goals at Telos in working with churches, and again as you notice we we work with other communities as well and other leader. leaders from other sectors as well, but most of our work has been with Christians and almost all of mine has been with Christian leaders. And one of our central goals there, ⁓ in working with the churches, is to help them and work together with them to find ways to better embrace that calling ⁓ of to be embodied peacemakers in the world, to live out this calling. ⁓ in their communities and in the world and all the places they have influence. And so that's ⁓ I mean but that real that discipleship question I think is really kind of a the you know it's obviously it's a central project of the church and peacemaking really is central to what it means to be a follower of Jesus in the world. And so how do we bring all that together? That's that's the work we've been trying to do with with the church for a long time now. ⁓ that's great. I I I know very early on In my life and ministry, the Luke nine twenty-three words of Jesus. If anybody wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me, has been a challenge for me. ⁓ always trying to put myself out of the way and and follow Jesus. And and so I can imagine the ⁓ just the conversations you've had over the years with people, because ⁓ when we're thinking about following Jesus and when you frame this as a discipleship conversation. How do you see people making progress ⁓ t when you talk about reconciliation and peacemaking? What are some key things ⁓ that allow people in that discipleship work to experience reconciliation and peacemaking? Well, I I will first of all say when you when you read the Beatitudes, you you're often left wondering, is Jesus serious? Does he like, is this for real? Because he says these things, you know, blessed are the peacemakers and like Well, maybe. I mean we like have a Nobel Prize for peace in the world, but like mostly people who do the work of peace and justice are not necess don't don't necessarily look like they're the ones who are blessed. And in fact, ⁓ there are a number throughout history there are a number of people who have advocated for peace and justice in the world and have and been killed for for doing it, right? So it's it doesn't always look that way. But having said that, having taken so many people on on these journeys like you went on with us in the South and We've led many, many trips to to the Holy Land and to other parts of the world. ⁓ and done other work with people and and seeing the transformation it makes and seeing there there is a blessing in the work. It it is a very there's it's a blessed thing for people, ⁓ to see people embrace this and live live this out in their own ⁓ context and communities. So I mean, I would give some examples of some of the churches that we're working with right now that are doing some amazing stuff. There's a there's a church in South Bend, Indiana called South Bend City Church and They intentionally planted themselves in the kind of downtown area and the kind of area that was ⁓ that was you know, kind of the roughest part of town, if you will. But it's also immediately adjacent to the the most prosperous part of town, which is Notre Dame University and all that's around there. And they and they wanted to live in the proximity between all of these, you know, these very different contexts that are kind of side by side but very separate and very disconnected. And one of the things they began to do after doing several you know, trip and other experiences with us was to to try to design their own kind of immersion experience there in their community to help their people go on a journey to learn their own city better and to to learn its history and to lean in and listen to the people who are most vulnerable, ⁓ especially leaders in the in kind of marginalized communities to see what what are their issues, what how what would it take for the church to be a healing and reconciling agent of justice and healing and repair? right here in our city. And and and the way to know that is to like listen to those people that are vulnerable and particularly the people in those communities who are doing incredible work to try to make, you know, to make the realities ⁓ more just and whole. And so that's a beautiful example of a church that has over and over again now, ⁓ multiple times they've they've created these kind of two day immersion experience weekends for their people to go on and get to know their community better and get to know it in its in its holistic way. And all of its kind of history and some of the some of it is pain and injustice and some of it's just beauty and all but the complexity of their of their city and and that is a way to help a whole a whole church community find a way to to be an agent of healing and repair. ⁓ I was just out in Jackson Hole, Wyoming this last week. And while I was there I met with two of our kind of ⁓ friends and church partners there, the pastor of the ⁓ Presbyterian Church and the pastor of the Episcopal Church there. And one of the central things in Jackson Hole, I don't know if you know this town, but it's very ⁓ it's very unique and artificial in so many ways. There's so much natural beauty all around. There's nothing that's artificial about it, but there's so much wealth that has that has been, you know ⁓ drawn there because of that natural beauty and because the scarcity of private land. ⁓ real estate prices are just absolutely insane. They've always been high, but particularly since the pandemic, they're absolutely insane. And you have kind of a millionaire and billionaire class that have come in and and bought up these properties to and now it there's a huge affordable housing crisis. So it's not just restaurant workers and you know, and and cops that can't afford to live there anymore. It's also like medical doctors who can't afford to live there right now. And it's create and so it's created a real way in which this community is seeing that you we can't flourish if we don't realize how interconnected we all are. Our work is always predicated on this idea that you have to understand what peacemaking is, you have to understand what peace is, and peace is really, you know, it's this the the it's the English translation of shalom, right? The Hebrew. which is this wholeness and unity of the of God's original design where men and women are living in right relationship with God and each other and the creation in flourishing in justice and peace and wholeness. Right? That's the that's kind of what we're that's what we're working toward and that is what God is working toward and inviting us to participate in. And so in a community like Jackson Hole, you can you can just see it so obviously that there are people that are flourishing, they have a lot of wealth and they live in with a lot of beauty all around them. But their their actual flourishing is connected to also being able to see a medical doctor or get a fireman to come if the you know if the house is on fire or just to to live in that relation in those set of relationships and everybody's gotta flourish. So these two churches are both really involved in affordable housing. You know, one of them actually the Presbyterian Church has actually ⁓ taken some of its property and and investing in an affordable housing complex for people. ⁓ and that is a that is a way to actually do reconciling healing work in your own community. The other is really kind of leaning into the longer history of the area and particularly the Native Americans that that ⁓ ex the Native American experiences of displacement there and and you know and reservation systems around them. And so they're trying to lean in more into some of those issues as well and trying to figure out what does it look like to account for our own story and our own history and how can we work to make a current reality more just when we know those things. So those are just a couple of examples of churches that I think are really trying to live this out here in our own country. One that you'll see when we go to Ireland together in August, and I'll l end with this one, but is the a beautiful story of a Catholic parish and a Presbyterian church and the and the the priest and the pastor have are just the closest of friends and they have come together to create a an art, music, culture festival for the whole city of Belfast, 'cause Belfast is a very divided place along kind of Catholic Protestant lines and also socioeconomic lines. And so there's like four quadrants of Belfast. So they call it the Four Corners Festival. And it is a way to to tell to use story, art, music, ⁓ food, culture, all those sorts of things, ⁓ and to get people to cross their the lines that that they live within and to get to know each other. And it's a beautiful gift to their community. It's been going for some years now and it's turning into quite Quite a big event every February, this this ⁓ Four Corners Festival. So those are just ⁓ you know some s some examples and I could go on and on about churches that are really trying to live outwardly as a healing, reconciling agent of justice and beauty and healing and and health in their ⁓ in their communities in which they exist. Those are three really great examples. ⁓ and ⁓ and they're all focused on community. I remember last year when I went on the trip that you all led to the American South and the the basic format was we would we would go to a place in the community, we would meet some people ⁓ and hear about their life experiences and and the way they had struggled through issues of racism or poverty or injustice. And ⁓ and then we would often come back and then in the evening, ⁓ we would sit around a table together and we would talk about That experience. And ⁓ those kind of intentional conversations, I think, are really important for us. First, the experience of community and then in community, talking about that. How do you, how do you see the work that you're doing? I I know you so you go to the American South, and that trip that I was on, we started in New Orleans, we went to the Bayou, then we went to Jackson, Mississippi, and we went to Selma and Montgomery. ⁓ but also know that you you I believe you have trips you go to ⁓ South Africa, you go to Palestine. The one that we're going on would be Belfast, ⁓ Derry, ⁓ b and Dublin. and and so ⁓ how do how do these trips help create conversations for people and move them in that discipleship path of peacemaking and reconciliation? I think one of the things that we kind of knew out of out of our own experience and have certainly now had it affirmed both by doing it and by kind of even academic literature around this kind of thing is that the way we deal with complexity ⁓ in the world, ⁓ you know, we we try to make a really simple story as quickly as possible. We try to reduce something down to make it who are the good guys, who are the bad guys, what's up, what's down, who you know, who's right, who's wrong. We want to just have kind of get it get it you know, we're busy people with full lives and we don't want to deal with a lot of complexity. And the world's a complicated place and you know, historic ⁓ con conflicts and injustices that have long l lives of, you know, long legacies are can be very complicated. ⁓ and and so people need to know information, they need to know history, they need to know facts. But the reality is If I have a f view about something, if I've you know if I've reduced this down or I've just inherited a p a position on something, or I you know, I I th if I believe something is true and I strongly believe it's true, you're never gonna argue me into a new position just by giving me facts and information. That happens occasionally, but it's pretty rare. But the but but I can change. I my I can change when my heart changes, and when my heart changes, I I it opens me up to see something differently and to be willing to listen to things. New information and new facts and that I I actually didn't that I would have dismissed before perhaps. So what wha I think one of the things that we've done most effectively at Telos is create space for people to be to have to th have transformational moments. So I think that is kind of our the thing we do best is create is create space. Because we trul we we wanna get people somewhere where they're like they don't know what's going on a little bit or they're a little uncomfortable. they feel like you know, maybe they're a little out their element or it's just it's a little it's a little, you know, ⁓ something is is they're they're they can't command the situation. They don't know everything and and they're often proximate to injustice and vulnerability and amazing people living with difficult circumstances but also d doing it in ways that are quite profound and ⁓ and then have you know, that have out of those circumstances have become more human and wiser people in so many ways. ⁓ and so that I think is the the kind of magic or the secret sauce of our trip experiences is that we get people proximate ⁓ and close to vulnerability and close to injustice and also let them have experiences and hear stories and have have allow their hearts to be opened up a little bit. And Jesus talked a lot about if you have eyes to see and ears to hear And a lot of times the people listening to him didn't have those things and that's why he was saying that. But but there the way to sort of ha the the the best way to have eyes to see is to ⁓ you know, is to get yourself into a place where your heart can be opened up. ⁓ and that's what I think we do with our trips. ⁓ thanks for sharing that. As you were talking, my mind was rushing back to the trip I took ⁓ last summer. and ⁓ I grew up Baptist in Missouri and one of the things my mama taught me is you don't dance. No dancing. That's not right. And so there in the park in New Orleans, and then there in that restaurant in Selma, when when they got this Baptist preacher up dancing and drumming, I cannot express to you how uncomfortable I was, how awkward I felt. However It was a transformative experience for me. It was fun. ⁓ I saw a little video of it and it was like that's something I don't need to see again, but it was but it was it it it helped me to feel s things that that I was trying to feel. And so I'm just curious if we're gonna dance when we go to Ireland and Northern Ireland. That's what I wanna know. I don't know if that's gonna happen. Well there's definitely there's definitely music there. So I think the dancing is Is a little ⁓ maybe a little more optional, but it's ⁓ it's an op it's an opportunity that will be there for us. There'll be other ways we can also become uncomfortable together there. Sure. As a as a couple of white guys from the from Missouri and Arkansas we'll ⁓ with Baptist backgrounds, we'll definitely find some ways to be uncomfortable. I'm sure that's true. Okay, as our time's coming to end, I have a couple more questions to ask you. ⁓ a lot of the work that I do, Todd, as you know, is with pastors and church leaders as the executive director of the Mint Center for Church Leadership. And And this trip that we're taking in August, ⁓ I have a group of pastors ⁓ from Nashville that I'm I'm that I'm taking over. And then last summer I was mostly with ⁓ church leaders. And so I'm wondering about like when we think particularly about pastors who who are tasked with the responsibility of leading their congregations ⁓ in peacemaking and reconciliation and and discipleship. I mean, ⁓ essentially leading their congregation is to be disciples. ⁓ how how does a trip like this and the intentional conversations that come out of that maybe equip them in some ways ⁓ to lead their com their congregation in those discipleship journeys? Well, they'll obviously be learning from some amazing people. ⁓ and and what I have what I have kind of determined over time, because I've met some of the most profound, amazing, and most human people, like people who've kind of lived into their full God designed humanity in ways that that are remarkable in places like Palestine or Israel or Northern Ireland or Selma, Alabama, places like that. You and so they're gonna meet some amazing people. And I realize like they're probably they're probably kinda normal people like you and me, but they've had to live they've lived in this crucible of injustice and suffering and all sorts of, you know, insecurity and all the things that that have made up the sum of their lives, ⁓ And yet in that in the in that crucible they have kind of been refined into these diamonds because they've had to really decide, you know, what what is really true in the world and and how do I and how do I want to live in it and how do I want to relate to others and all those sorts of questions that are very important. And so ⁓ you they're gonna learn from people and they're gonna learn from each other. ⁓ and I think that that's a really important thing, especially I, you know, was with your group ⁓ recently in Nashville and I was so taken by the you know, kind of different kinds of diversity that existed in the room and and in all kinds of ways. There everybody was Christian but doing it a lot of different ways. and so just various kinds of of traditions and different theological interpretations about things and ⁓ life experiences and context and it was all kind of present there. And those folks going on a trip together is a beautiful thing. And so I think the fundamentalist urge within us always wants to create sameness and certainty. and I think what what but what really where where growth really takes place is when we abandon kind of the need for sameness and certainty and when we appreciate that none of us has it all figured out and there's so much we can learn and there's nothing threatening about that. We don't have to feel threatened that our what we believe what our convictions are are somehow gonna be undermined by listening to and being in relationship from the from someone who sees things differently or has had a different life experience or whatever. And so I think that the the power of getting those folks together is is has the potential for them for everyone to kind of be shaped and and go on a a wider journey. ⁓ there's a there's a line that Pope Leo has in this new encyclical that he wrote and I may not quote it perfectly right now, but he says in there something that the truth is not territory to be defended, but it's it's love to be shared. Something like that. And and I think that's what you can see when you when you get people, you know, ⁓ all trying to follow God and all like really serious about what it means to be a Christian in the world, but you get them together and in that in the in the different ways that they've worked that out, the possibility of kind of growing together, learning together, and and being, you know, further shaped together, when it's kind of in this kind of spirit of generosity of like You know, we're not trying to hold on to s we're not truth is not territory to be defended, but it's something to be shared. And we're we're sharing that with each other as we go. I think there's just an opportunity for for real ⁓ for a really moving experience for people that heck can have long lasting effect beyond the trip experience itself. ⁓ Todd, I I've been to Belfast and and Derry and Dublin now twice. And part of the reason I wanted to do this trip was each time I met people like that. Who challenged me. And in the frame of our conversation is discipleship, who have challenged me to be more like Jesus. And I'm excited about the opportunity we're gonna have in August ⁓ to to go again and to journey with you. And I appreciate your ⁓ sharing ⁓ about your work and the importance of community and discipleship, ⁓ and being in in conversations where we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and learn from other people. Even if we're not in a hundred percent agreement, we can still learn from them ⁓ and we can find ways to be in reconciliation. So grateful for that, grateful for your time today. ⁓ I we do this work ⁓ because I believe in the hope of the gospel. And I believe that the church is tasked with the proclamation of the gospel and disciplining other folks. And Paul tells us in first Corinthians that without the resurrection, why are we doing what we're doing? So I always like to ask this question at the end and I'll share ask it of you now. Todd, what is a hopeful church to you? I love that question. We'll start with hope for just one second, because people confuse hope and optimism and they're not the same thing. So optimism is a optimism like pessimism is a cheap emotion. ⁓ and hope is something way different, more resilient. But it's also ⁓ it's also a v a verb, if you will, because hope is what you do. And I learned this from a Palestinian theologian named Midri Rahab, ⁓ who who has has has taught this for many years. But it's like we live and act in hopeful ways and in doing that we open up the possibility for the kingdom of God. to break in. And so when we when we live out our hope, we have an eschatological hope that that God we love and serve is making things right. And we can l when we live into that and we embrace it. So we can I can fall into despair. The world is a really messed up place and we deal with a lot of pain and injustice ⁓ you know, on a daily basis in our work in terms of the the relationships we have and the things people are going through and the experiences we give people and the things we know about. So I can fall into despair but I can't stay there because I have a hope. And I can live into that hope. And I've and I and as we live into it, the kingdom of God can break in. The other thing I would say is hope is not just sort of confidence in the future that God is gonna make things right, but that he's doing it now. But it's also as the former ⁓ Archbishop of Can Canterbury Rowan Williams says, hope is the confidence that the past and the present and the future are all held in one relationship by a God who loves us. And and that and I really love that idea that like, you know, these these sufferings are not lost on God, that God is present to us in our in our contemporary sufferings And he's present to us even in the historic traumas of the past that we've experienced or that have, you know, that have happened to people. And and he's also the God of the future of making things right. But he holds all those things in relationship. And so that definition of hope, it's this it's it's it's this you know that's a beautiful way to think about it too. So a hopeful church is one that kind of understands, ⁓ understands what hope really is, and then lives out that hope ⁓ for the sake of their neighbors around them ⁓ on a just on an ongoing basis, continually ⁓ living counterculturally, living differently, ⁓ with this idea that God wants to make things right, is making things right and ⁓ and and the kingdom of God breaks in even here and now, not just in some future way, but it breaks in now and brings actual transformation into our hearts and into our communities ⁓ all the time. ⁓ wow, Todd, what a strong finish. I I find myself wanting to to summarize that, but I'm just gonna stop. I'm not gonna try to summarize that. That is very, very powerful, a great image of God at work in the past, present, and future for the Hopeful Church ⁓ and the work we do together. Todd, thank you so much for joining us today in our conversation about the Hopeful Church ⁓ and the great work that you're doing. ⁓ we look forward to doing more work with you in the future and thank you for your time today. Thanks, Daryl. It's been great. Okay. Appreciate it. Thank Todd. Take care now. Bye-bye. God bless. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Hopeful Church Podcast. This episode was hosted by Daryl Gualtney and edited and produced by Brandon Billings. Our theme music was also created by Brandon Billings. Don't forget to subscribe, review, and rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about the Mensch Center for Church Leadership, go to M-O-E-N-C-H Center.com. And to learn more about Belmont University, go to belmont.edu.