S2 E2 | How Do I Grow Closer to God? | After the Message

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call After the Message, where the conversation about life, God, and the Bible continue beyond Sunday.

We hope today's episode will encourage, enlighten, and inspire you.

I don't have a creative intro, so we're just gonna get right into it.

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I love it.

I love it.

After the message new season, we're talking about spiritual disciplines, we're talking about rhythms, and you can't talk about those spiritual disciplines or rhythms without talking about prayer in the word.

Yes.

Right?

Let's get down to the the fundamentals, the foundations of our faith, and uh talk a little bit about reading the Bible and praying every day.

Uh as the old song goes, and you will grow, grow, grow.

I love that song, Nate.

Can you sing it in um in key?

I can't do that.

No, I can't do that for you.

Talk about trauma.

A lot of people, including myself, struggle with prayer because it seems like you can just be talking to a wall or you're just saying a bunch of things, you're not hearing anything.

It seems like a one-way conversation.

Have either of you ever struggled with that?

Do you still struggle with it, or are you pros at prayer right now?

I'll I'll give a quick answer, and I would love to, and I've heard Vinny give a version of his response for this, so I want to I want to create space for that.

Um, yes, not to the part of being an expert at prayer, but feeling like you're praying and it's not it's not moving the needle.

Yeah.

Um, so I think that that's a very valid thing, and and there's certainly practical things you can do, but I think it first starts with us recognizing that it's not a one-way conversation.

Um, when I initially gave my life to the Lord and began to really walk in fellowship with him, I do think prayer was presented to me in a way of, hey, here's your strategy on how to get your prayers answered.

Pray these words, pray these scriptures, and that's kind of how you get it.

But as I've grown through the years, I recognize that that prayer is also a space where you're silent and you listen and you allow um the presence of God to comfort you, to nurture you, to speak to you.

So I do think that when we're thinking of speaking to a wall, it's changing the way and recognizing, hey, there's another dimension to this wall, and maybe there's a space where I just need to be still and allow God to speak to me as well, because that too, listening is a part of prayer.

Yes, uh, I struggle with that um very often, to be honest with you.

Sometimes I I I feel that my my prayer is not going beyond the roof, the roof.

And um I think something that helps me is to understand that prayer is an act, is an act of faith, right?

It's it it it doesn't require faith to receive what you're asking only, but it requires it requires faith to pray.

Yeah, otherwise, yes, you're just talking with yourself.

Um so I approach prayer through the lens of faith.

So even though I feel my words is not going anywhere, I'm doing this through faith.

Yeah, um that's good, really.

Also, uh, if we if we read our Bibles, Romans, Colossians, all of that, we'll see Paul saying for a couple of times pray with perseverance, right?

So I think he's also talking about this.

He's not he's not he's not only talking about, hey, make sure when you're praying, you'll talk about these things.

He's I think he's also saying, hey, sometimes when you're praying, you will feel like nobody's listening to you.

Yes, keep praying, yeah, keep doing it in faith.

Yeah, and you know what?

You saying that it reminds me of like if we spend any time in the book of Psalms, you'll see that David is often pushing in Lord, how long?

Yeah, yeah, how long am I going to be asking you for this?

And I'm not getting a response.

So I do agree.

Like there are those moments that we even see in scripture from the saints, yeah, that they're telling us we have to persevere, we have to keep showing up.

We we even see David saying, Are you there?

Yeah.

It's not only like, are you going to answer my prayers or not?

It's more like, Are you listening to what I'm saying right now?

Yeah.

So it's it's it's part of the journey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The the aspect of um you mentioned hearing God in prayer.

How does that how does that manifest itself?

Like, are we talking audibly?

Like what what what are we talking about when people say, Well, I've never heard God in prayer?

Like, what does that mean?

So I I think it can come in many ways.

For for me, um, and and I'm pretty sure other folks will have different responses to this.

God tends to speak to me, one, through his word, or it's consistent with his word.

So I don't get any insight or impressions that are inconsistent with God's word.

So there is a a congruence that I believe that why I often connect prayer and the word is because what I find is that when God is speaking, it is typically through his word.

Now, what that looks like practical in manifestation, it could be um um, it could be me sitting in silence, it could be me chilling or whatever the case may be, and God may bring something up.

So I like a Christian term could be bring it up in my spirit, but it could be me just sitting at home, I could be in a sauna, I could be somewhere, and then I can feel like God is bringing up a thought or a word, and I'm like, okay, like where is this coming from?

Like, and I begin to kind of sit with it for a while and I begin to process it a little bit more.

These are not thoughts that I'm pursuing, but it's more so an impression that you kind of feel something that's coming up in your remembrance.

So that can be a form of it.

But but for me, the way that I vet that is always through scripture.

So God's not going to tell me something or put an impression in my mind or heart, bring something into my thought process that's inconsistent with what I find in his word.

In other words, like I've had people say, and this is just my I'll say this anecdotally, hey, I was in prayer and and God told me um who my spouse is.

That person is currently married, but God showed me that that's my spouse.

That's where I'm like, okay, well, let's let's pause and talk about that for a minute because that seems fairly inconsistent with what God has established in his life.

That's called coveting your neighbor's wife.

Literally what it makes.

Yes.

So those that's a good place to start.

But for me, that's kind of how it's worked in my life is God speaks to me the most through his word, but it comes up in moments of prayer and silence, or even if I'm reading the scripture along with prayer, but that's how God speaks to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have it's very similar to me.

And to be honest with you, I'm being very transparent here.

Sometimes I I even get jealous when people uh tell me God told me such and such.

Um of course I hear God's voice, but it's not as often as people um share, I guess.

Um I my my experience is very similar.

Um, it's very connected to the word of God.

But of course, here and there I have impressions that God is leading me or God is speaking with me.

Uh, and of course, the word of God will always be uh where we need to go and check.

Um and and that's uh also why I'm uh I'm always very hesitant to say God told me to do something or to say something.

What I tend to say is I believe that God is leading me to do such and such.

Um just just out of my zeal.

Um I I just want to make sure I'm only saying the things I am a hundred percent sure.

Sure.

Uh so if I am sure God told me to do uh such and such, I will say that.

If it's just an impression, I think I will categorize as an impression.

Yeah.

Um that's usually in hindsight, too, right?

Like we we get a sense um that there's a direction for our life.

We take steps of faith, you know, saying, like, all right, Lord, I think this is where you're leading me, or I actually I have no idea, so I'm just gonna go this route.

And you kind of look back and go, Yeah, that was God along the way.

Yeah, yeah.

But it would be way more comfortable if we knew that before, right?

Yeah, I I always tell Juliana that for the big decisions of our life, of our lives, we've never heard the voice of God clearly.

Yeah, so I God never told me get married with this girl, God never told me uh move to US, God never told me start attending celebration, never.

But looking back, I was like, okay, it was either the the best I made a best decision, or God blessed the decision we made.

Yeah, um, and of course, God will always bless us if we're faithful to what we say, if we're faithful to the word, uh, God will bless.

But sometimes I would love to have the answers before making decisions.

Yeah, yeah.

That would be incredible.

Yeah, like let's let's pray right now.

Let's pray right now.

I say, God, can you just like change the order of these things?

It'll help us out a whole lot more, be better followers of you.

If I just knew that for a fact, when I step out of this boat, I'm gonna walk on.

Exactly.

Yes, just make it clear.

Exactly.

Do you guys feel like that you pray the same things over and over again, or that you are you're constantly asking for the same things, or has it changed, has it shifted based off of your your season of life, or yeah?

Um, as typical for me, yes, and so yes, there is a a template almost.

Like I'm I guess the same way that the that that Jesus gives us the Lord prayer as like that model, um, there is a model that I've deduced in how like when I wake up in the morning that this is kind of how I'll start my day with just with gratitude, like that that is pretty consistent.

My morning prayer is generally the same.

Thank you, God, for waking me up.

Just like, you know, give us this their daily bread, a version of the Lord's prayer.

And that's just kind of like my beginning thing.

When I go into like what we would call, again, I'm going to speak my denominational language, when we would go into my prayer closet, that's my time where it's me praying about something, that's where it becomes a lot more targeted.

And what's what's helped me, which was not a part of my early faith tradition, it was just you prayed.

And we talked before about the expectation that you gave God a tithe in prayer.

Like two hours and 40 minutes per day is what you prayed per day.

That is what you, that's what's expected of you.

Um now I've grown to understand that I may pray about one singular thing for five or ten minutes, and then that's what I prayed about for that, and then I'll pray another time about something else.

So I have more targeted prayers throughout the day.

So when Paul says pray without ceasing, the way that that expresses itself in my life now is I have a morning prayer when I wake up.

Midday, I typically will pray about whatever's going on, and then I have an evening prayer that's very targeted with family needs, things that are going on with the church.

Wednesday are days that I actually delegate to pray for our church.

So that's when I'm working on sermon prep, and I'm praying over the staff, I'm praying over our elders, but that's a day that I designate that I'm specifically praying for our church.

So for me, I've kind of created rhythms of where I pray and when I pray certain things.

So some things look the same, and then some things look different depending on whatever is happening in our community.

Yeah.

Yeah, I am on the other side of the coin.

Um, I am not a man of rhythms as you are.

The the only rhythm um I have as far as uh as far as prayer is pray every day.

Sometimes is in the morning, sometimes is in the afternoon, sometimes is uh before I go to bed.

I'm talking about a dedicated moment of prayer, right?

Um so I don't I don't have rhythms like that.

Like on Wednesdays, I specifically pray.

I don't have that.

Um back to your question, I don't pray repetitive type of prayers.

Um and and a fun fact here, we have different words in Portuguese for this.

So if you are repeating a prayer, we call it something.

If it's out it's an authentic type of prayer, we call it something else.

Um so I don't repeat prayers.

What's very common to me is I is that I a couple of things I pray every single day.

Um so I can give you guys a couple of examples.

I am this will be this will be shocking, okay?

But I am a pastor that struggles with my faith.

Okay, it's very it's easier for me to believe in what the news are saying than what God is saying.

Um, so I pray that every single day.

God help me with my lack of faith.

That's that's something very common.

Sometimes I pray that multiple times in one day.

Um, because it's very genuine, it's very like God, you know me very well.

I wish I could be more like Pastor Keith.

For him, his type of personality, his faith, all of that.

He's a how do we say in English?

A faith-filled type of guy.

Delusional, is that what you're gonna say?

But I I am the opposite.

Um, lots of times we are in a conversation and he's he's faith-filled, just sharing stuff.

And inside of me, I'm like, I wish I could be more like this.

I'm not, but I pray every single day, similar to that encounter that Jesus had with that father.

Help me.

Help me, yeah.

Um, so that's one prayer that I pray every single day.

I try to pray for my family every single day, but it's not the exact same words every day.

Sometimes I pray for Serena, sometimes I pray for Jews, sometimes I pray for both, sometimes I pray for my parents, sometimes I pray for Serena's friends.

Yeah, uh whatever comes in a moment, yeah.

Um, that's pretty much it.

Yeah.

For people who may be thinking, like, you know what?

I'm just always asking God for stuff.

I'm always presenting requests, and that seems to be the extent of my prayer.

Is there more to prayer?

And if there is more to prayer, what is that more?

Like, what else can you do in prayer besides ask God for things?

That's awesome.

Can I start here?

Please, I want you to do that.

Um I think if you were this type of person, I think you need to understand that prayer is it's there is a relational aspect to prayer.

And and probably this is the most important thing in prayer.

Uh imagine how healthy would be your relationship with your spouse if all the interactions is just you asking, asking, asking, asking, asking, asking.

Sometimes I think people see prayer as an avenue to get everything everything they want from God.

And that's not prayer, right?

Prayer is investing in a relationship.

I love the the Dallas Dallas Wheeler definition.

Prayer is a conversation we have with God about the things we're doing together.

I I love this.

Beautiful.

This is exactly what it is.

Um, I think asking is part of prayer, sure, but it's not, it's not that there's way more.

So what I do is of course I ask when I'm praying, but never through the lens of let me get from God what I want.

It's more like because I have a relationship with Him, I just ask.

The other thing that I think it's very important, back to what I was just saying, people believe that God is, or praying is a way from from them to get, sorry, prayer is a way for them to get from God what they want.

They forget that prayer is also a way for God from for God to get from us, from us what He wants.

So when we understand that that relational aspect of prayer, I think everything changes.

So if you I'm sure Pastor Keith will talk about um what Jesus thought about prayer, but there is an aspect or or a or a portion of prayer that Jesus taught us that we should ask.

Absolutely.

But it's not, it's not all about that.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

I and I I mean I don't have much to add to that except for um the practical side of it, is certainly, you know, if we're we're in relationship, we're we're having a conversation, but then sometimes people just need to have like a a structure or something that helps them to put their thoughts into a bucket.

And there's so many different prayer models out there, if you want to call it that.

Um, and it's not to strip away the authenticity, but just kind of help give direction.

So I want to encourage people to to Google um something called the tabernacle prayer, and it just basically shows you how you can engage the presence of God, acts prayer, ACTS prayer, whereas adoration, we just you start off with just acknowledging and adoring the goodness of God.

So it breaks down these path these processes and then supplications, which is the request, is the last thing.

So these are just rhythms and patterns that you can lean to.

Um, but but Jesus kind of gives us that example with the Lord's Prayer of just even how we approach that.

And we've done series on it, we've done discussions on just what it looks like to approach God through that lens as well.

So it's it's certainly not just me getting from God what I want, it's us having a conversation, it's me engaging him, but it's also not forgetting, and I think this is important for for me and even for our culture, is that is that God is accessible, but he's not common.

So the fact that we're invited into his presence and he doesn't expect us to to have to put on a show, but I'm still in the presence of the King of Kings.

Yeah, so there's certainly a moment of adoration, a moment of recognition that I'm entering into the throne room, and there's a certain behavior that I present when I'm walking into the throne room of heaven, is what I believe prayer does.

And that adoration sets the tone and the atmosphere for how I want to approach him.

Like Megan and I will often watch some of these period piece shows where they show kingdoms and things like that.

That's so beyond us.

But one of the things I love to watch is the decorum.

It's the way that you approach the king, it's the way that you have these conversations.

And not that God needs that from us, but I never lose sight of the fact that I want to treat God as common.

He's still holy and he's allowing me to come in.

So I do approach it with adoration first, and then I let that set the tone for everything else.

It's a recognition of position, right?

You know, like it's it's it's reinforcing with your own self where you fall fall in place, and that's why they do that in those kingdom pieces, is because like, no, this is the king, he's on the throne, I'm his servant, and this is how this is how uh it's been set up.

And so prayer's that that way too.

Like it's it's positioning.

Hey, who's who's the one with real authority here?

And uh where I need to fall in line with that.

Last question on prayer is how do these two passages not contradict?

Okay, ready?

The persistent widow, right?

Where he's saying, You gotta keep asking, gotta keep asking, like if someone who's uh just a sinful judge can make a just decision, don't you think God will?

And then Jesus talks also says, like, hey, just ask and don't ask again, because just have faith that that it's been received by your father.

What's what's the difference in those passages?

With with anything for for scripture interpretation, context, nuance, everybody knows that that's a I'm a big I'm a big proponent of that.

So when we're talking about the the principles of what it means to engage the presence of God, and there's a persistence that is necessary, I I think that there's a discernment piece.

So so let me let me back us up and look at like um the book of Daniel, Daniel chapter 10.

Daniel 10 · chapter mention

It tells a story of how Daniel had set himself apart, he went into a period of praying, and so there's he's kind of like given insight into what's happening in the spiritual realm.

Angel shows up, um, and Vinny, you know the story that angels shows up and is like, hey, God heard you when you first started praying and you continued to pray, but I was caught up in the heavens in spiritual warfare.

Michael had to come down and then I came here.

It blows our mind to even wrap our heads around that.

But that's literally what's happening beyond us.

So I think the distinction between this prayer with persistence versus praying, knowing that God's got it covered, I think it's discerning the season you're in.

And I think sometimes some prayers, they're spiritual warfare.

Like you're literally engaging in spiritual warfare, and there's a sense of I need to continue to persist in this because I realize that there's something that's happening that I know I need to persevere through.

And then there's other things that you're praying for, and it's like, man, I trust God in this and I don't have to circle back to it.

So for me, the distinction is more so discerning if I'm feeling opposition.

That's how it kind of practically works out for me.

Do I feel like there's real opposition to this?

And if there is, I'm gonna pray without ceasing.

But if I feel like I'm asking God for, you know, an increase at my job, Lord, I'm believing for it, I trust you, you're my provider.

I'm gonna pray about this, I'm gonna move on, versus moments where I feel like genuine warfare going on.

So that's the practical expression of it.

But you know, Vinny, what do you what do you I think two things I would I would add here?

I think the the encouragement in the Bible for us to keep praying, um, it's not it's it's not it's funny because sometimes I I see people saying this.

Um I pray for I've been praying for this for three years and and it And s sometimes I'm under the impression that they were say what they are saying is if you reach 400 times praying for days, God will answer.

It's almost like God is collecting your prayers until you you reach the a good amount, and then God and that's not the point, right?

Um so it's not about how many times you pray, but but as you pray, again, God is doing something inside of you.

Yes, God is changing you as you pray.

And and and listen, this might be crazy, but I I definitely believe that as you pray, God God is changing you even to receive his no as an answer.

Probably it's an option, right?

So I think it's not it's not about how many times you pray, it's what God is doing as you pray.

I think that's one thing.

The other thing is when when when we see in a Bible, uh we see like pray and and forget.

I think what uh the teaching there is is also connect with the fact that sometimes we pray, but we we pray like we give it to God, but we keep to ourselves.

It's almost like God, give me peace about tomorrow.

Amen.

Two seconds later, you are concerned about tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah.

So so I think it's also connected with the fact that if you're praying, if you're giving that to God, trust that He'll He will do it.

Yeah, um does that make sense?

Yes, perfect sense, perfect sense.

Well done.

I love that.

All right, let's talk.

Uh, since we are talking about verses in the Bible, let's switch over to the importance of reading our Bible, just staying rooted in the Word of God, and the Word's the Word, right?

Like I think you both alluded to it early on in today.

Like, God's not gonna say something that is uh incongruent with what's already written down uh via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So uh I know a lot of people struggle with understanding the Bible or um just having difficulty, they feel confused, I guess would be a good way to put it, even in that example that I just gave.

Like it seems like those two things can't align.

So um where do they start to be able to receive a little bit more clarity uh when they read the word and and come out of confusion or disorientation, even because it can be a little bit overwhelming, right?

To just pick it up and go, well, I guess I'll start here.

For sure.

Um I think you know what's important is is that we have to let me say this.

Don't start off with reading the Bible in a year.

And and and I say that with with with every ounce of of empathy and and and genuine authentic pastoral care.

I think sometimes the the idea of approaching the Bible and consuming large volumes of it um can turn into us checking the list and we're not really allowing the word to go deep.

But what I would encourage somebody to do is actually um to start with Jesus.

That's where that's where it that's where it begins for me.

Now, I was brought up in a faith tradition that started with Jesus but always did background.

That's why I preach the way I it's just it's just one of those things that stuck with me.

It's part of my spiritual upbringing, but start with Jesus.

And so um that could be starting with one of the gospels, and each of the gospels has a different theme to it.

So I've actually found, and there's even assessments that you can take that um that kind of reveals which version of the gospel resonates with your personality and your temperament the most.

I love all of them for different reasons, um, but I think the Gospel of John is a phenomenal place to start because of the emphasis.

He he he starts from the very beginning of who Jesus is, he gets that out the way.

The other gospels kind of have like this this build-up of like, okay, we're gonna see him.

But John just said, hey, in the beginning was the word, the words with God, and the word was God.

Now that we got that out the way, now let us begin.

So they John jumps right in to let you know that Jesus is Lord, and now let us unpack how we get to this conclusion.

Um, but the other gospels have different ones.

Mark's gospel jumps right into the action.

Let's just get busy.

Let's let's the shortest gospel.

So each of them have their own version, but I would say um start with Jesus is is a great place because that is what fuels everything else.

Starting with Jesus is is one.

And then I've seen people vary, and I've seen some people recommend going to the book of Acts.

I've seen people refer to going to the book of Romans.

Um, I jumped into Romans.

I remember my first faith journey was I read all of the gospels, then I got to Romans, um, and then I went back to Acts.

Romans was really good for me to understand grace and it connected some dots, but Romans is a very heavy theological book when you really approach it from like understanding it, but it did help me to understand what Christ did a bit more.

And then Acts helped me to understand church traditions more.

So for me, start with Jesus and and then go from there.

And now we could talk about resources, but I wouldn't give Vinny a chance to speak on how we can kind of contextualize and understand more.

Yeah, I think I think set your expectations is very important too.

One I hear this a lot.

The Bible is a very hard book to read.

I I disagree with that.

I don't some books, absolutely, but not all of them.

I I think I think you got it.

Yeah, um, I've read, to be very honest with you, I've read books way more difficult than the Bible.

Um, the Bible is extremely profound, absolutely, but it's not necessarily extremely hard.

The second thing I would say is you won't know everything.

We don't know everything, we know nothing, to be honest with you.

So don't approach the Bible with the expectation of, oh, now I know forget it.

Um, it's it's something that you know every time you read, you get something new.

Yes, and it it and and it's beautiful.

So I think that's very important.

I think where where where to start is very important as well.

I I agree with that.

If you start in Ezekiel, yeah, you're gonna stop in two days.

You you're gonna give up.

So don't do that.

I think find a good a good version or or translation that uh it's good for you and and find a find resources.

Um the Bible project is amazing.

Yep.

Um, find people that can you know can help you if you have questions.

But again, if you read Acts, it's very easy to understand.

Romans is way more complicated.

Um it's so so pay pace yourself.

I I love this idea of uh don't read the Bible in one year.

You know, you have your entire life.

Yes, it's a journey.

It's a journey, it's a journey, absolutely.

I think it's better if you read one chapter a day and you understand what you're reading than just oh, I'm gonna read five because I need to check this.

No, I think pace yourself and and and if in just the example Pastor Keith just shared with us, uh John chapter one, verse one and two, we can spend our entire lives in just one verse right there.

Um, we have theologians that dedicated their entire lives for for Romans, and and that's it.

Dissertations and books upon both written on it, yeah.

So space yourself, and then if you read something you don't understand, find somebody, read something about it.

Um, but it's easier than you think it is.

Yeah, community is a is a crucial part of that as well.

Absolutely.

And then I would say to add to that, and um, and this was really helpful for me, is like go to church.

And like, and when a pastor is preaching, write those write those passages down, go back and read them.

That that was so transformational for me because I didn't have to feel like I needed to learn a new thing.

I'm like, hey, this is what we're learning as a church.

Let me read this in kind, like it just go in the pace of where you already are instead of feeling like you need to add a bunch of new things.

Hey, we're in a series about rhythms.

I'm just gonna lean in on these passages.

Like that's a great place to go as well, because at least you have communal interpretation that's happening at the same time.

Yeah, there's a South American theologian that says the Bible is a book to be read in community.

And what he means by that is of course, read on your own time, but discuss with people, yeah, share with people, and and it's going to be great for your church and for yourself.

Yeah, historically speaking, that's what's that's what it's it's not just like all right, pull out your Bible app first thing in the morning and do it by yourself, and that's the only way that you engage it, right?

Like, no, someone would get up in the synagogue, in the temple, whatever, read scripture, and then as a community of faith, you know, like the majority of people couldn't read, yeah.

So they heard it.

So logistically speaking, this would be very hard today, but I would be very curious to know how much our congregation would benefit if Pastor Keith is sharing for 20 minutes, and then we go, now let's talk about it.

Let's discuss it.

Yeah, let's talk about it.

Yeah, find five people.

Um, that would be very nice.

Yeah, I think the miracle statement is that you said I spoke for 20 minutes.

Yeah.

I didn't hear what you said after that.

They couldn't go fast.

Going back to the beginning of the episode, I'll pray about it.

Any man, I did good this past Sunday.

I did really good.

You did for sure.

Oh man.

Well, it's it's it's reading the Bible, it's like what we do with everything.

Like, we're always chasing information, right?

Instead of reading it for transformation, really.

And so I think what you said is is good.

Like just changing your expectation of what it actually is.

You guys both mentioned uh resources uh outside of resources that can help inform you of historical context and all that.

What are other ways to read the Bible?

I know there are there are different practices, and in this rhythm series, there are different ways to approach like, okay, I read, I read a verse, now what?

Or you know what I mean?

Over church history, there have been different ways to read it.

What are some of those ways that people may who feel a little bit stale in their Bible reading, let's just say that, can implement.

Um one of the things that I actually feel was very helpful for me about 15-ish years ago, um, it was the soap method.

And I know that it it it it has its own you have to be careful of like reading the Bible and then saying interpreting it based off of what you feel.

Yeah.

So I definitely think that there's uh some caution there.

But I do think the acronym of the SOAP method, when done in a healthy way, is really good, which means scripture.

I'm reading a scripture.

Um, there's an observation.

What is the Holy Spirit allowing to stand out to me?

How does that apply to my life and let me pray about it?

Like I genuinely remember doing that with my children, and it became such a great on-ramp for us to contextualize the Bible, for us to pray together as a family.

It was so transformational.

So that that's one of those, if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of things for me.

But it it's very important that when we begin to get into the the interpretation of it, that it's not like uh, well, this is my rogue interpretation.

So that's where resources help.

That's where um things, but for me, reading a scripture, what's what's the Holy Spirit bringing?

Why does that stand out?

It could be a word, it could be a whole phrase, it could be a couple of scriptures altogether, but then the observation, why is that there?

That's where I'll do some background study.

Um, Bible Project is great for that.

Um, a good um, uh I would say a good study Bible.

Now, again, a good study Bible that varies depending on whose method of interpretation.

So I think that's where you have conversations with people that you trust in your community.

Um, those are things that I use.

I have an amazing Bible software logo that I use that I have a bunch of different things because I like to actually try to interpret the Bible understanding different traditions.

So, like within the software, it tells me, hey, this is how Baptists have traditionally interpreted that, this is how Pentecostals traditionally interpret that.

Understanding that actually helps me knowing the broad range of people that we serve.

Um, but those are some of the extra things that I do.

Bible Project is a great baseline for me.

Um, but when it comes to my regular reading, um soap method has always been very tried and true for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't I don't use any method, and um, and that's because of my personality.

Um like I don't have I have um study Bibles, all of that.

Uh is that how we call yeah, study Bibles?

Yeah, um, I have all of that, but for my the the Bible I used to read every day, it's it's very important to me that there is nothing there but the word of God because of my personality.

If there is a comment, I'll be like, let me check this, and then and then I will be reading for information.

Um so what I do is I there is a differentiation for me, and I and and and again, this is me, my crazy world, but sometimes I try to read the Bible every year.

I try to that's for information for me.

Um, so this is what I do.

I get a plan, I read, I read through it.

Information.

That's not my time with God in my Bible.

And my time with God in my Bible, I don't have a plan, I don't have a I don't have a a checklist, I I just spend time with my Bible.

Sometimes I read two verses, sometimes I read ten chapters, sometimes I spend an entire year in one book, like 2015.

I think I already shared this with you.

I spent my entire year just reading Malachi.

That's it, that's what I did, to a point that I memorized the book to towards the end of the year, yeah.

So I make that differentiation for me.

So I try to read the entire thing for information, but when it's formation time, so me and God, I don't have a read them, but everything Pastor Keith uh shared, I think it's very, very important.

Yeah.

Do either of you pray scripture, combining the two segments of this hair podcast?

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, I I um not every verse translates into prayer, sure.

Um, but but absolutely that's um, and that was just part of the tradition I was brought up in, is like is is praying in the in the rhythm of scripture.

So if there's certain things that whether it be promises from God, whether it be um um reading through the Psalms, you know, uh Psalm 23 and just looking at it and and and not reciting it, but like, man, the Lord is my shepherd.

So I'm praying, knowing that God cares for me.

Um I shall not want that means that God's gonna provide for me.

Like, so I do pray within the frame of scripture quite frequently.

I'll quote scriptures while I'm praying.

Um so absolutely that's a regular rhythm for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But this is a great example of prayer changing who he's, not who God is, right?

Because God knows the scripture, but he needs to be reminded of that.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yes.

Um for people who for people who want to go go deeper, um, do you guys suggest formal training?

Is it a like is it I don't know, you could look at it as like, well, this could be a waste of time, you know.

I I would much rather focus my attention on my relationship with God as opposed to like my education.

Like how would you counsel somebody if they're interested in in doing something like that?

I'm laughing because um you're the question is being posed to academically minded people, um Which is why I'm asking it because so I'm trying to look at it through the lens of not me, but in general.

Yeah.

Um me for my journey, yes, I'm I've dedicated that I'm going to pursue God.

Um, and a part of pursuing God with my mind, soul, strength, all those things is absolutely being academic in the way that I approach and understand things.

So that's that's a part of my journey.

Um, I would say for other people, I do believe that there should be a measure of of genuine investment in your spiritual growth.

Now that may look like formal training in seminary, but I think that's a calling.

But I do think you should position yourself in spaces, whether that's I'll do a plug for us.

Like if we're having equip nights and things like that, do I believe you should invest and show up in those spaces?

1000%.

Um, Vinny is launching a school of ministry that he's doing.

I believe absolutely um people should lean into that because I think that's how you and you would invest in anything else in your life.

You invest in, you know, whether that be cars or whatever your your your niche things are, we invest in that.

So I do believe that that growing spiritually and and understanding God's word, that there should be some measure of a of an investment.

But I don't say that in a legalistic it's it's earning your way into heaven.

Sure.

But I do believe that if we're serious about something, we should invest in it.

And so investing in understanding nuances of scripture, um, for me, I'm trying to be graceful with it.

I do believe that there should be some measure of it.

So whether that's resources, whether that's classes, whatever that looks like, um, showing up at things that your church offers, whatever that looks like, participate because I do think that's a part of it.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think the only the only thing I would add is something that I had to learn years and years ago, and I've shared this with Nate many, many times.

I can guarantee you theology will disappoint you, but God will never disappoint you.

So if you want to learn more about God, uh absolutely study, and then you get to a point that you will realize, oh my gosh, there's no book in in this earth that can explain well who he is.

The best way of understanding him and knowing him is spending time with him.

So it's both end.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

Invest time in learning.

Um, but more than that, spend time with God.

Um, that's that's more important.

Yeah, I think the best advice you gave me on that years ago was study with your heart, not necessarily just with your head, usually like do it out of a desire to know God and not just know about God.

Exactly.

Right.

I think there's a difference between pursuing it to win debates and learn content versus genuinely trying to draw close to um the creator.

I I love how I heard one scholar say it this way.

He says, a God who is beyond comprehension still makes himself knowable.

And I think that that is something that is so beautiful because he invites us to know him, even though at the at the core of it, yeah, he's still incomprehensible.

Absolutely.

That's a beautiful invitation.

Absolutely.

And then if one day we get to a place that we go, oh, we know God, God will be like, let me show you something.

Let me show you another dimension.

Yes.

I was writing uh curriculum last week.

I was on page 70 something, being very honest with you guys.

And then I stopped and I was like, What am I doing?

Because it was so complicated, so complicated, full of you know, scholar A and scholar B, and these guys think like this, these guys think like this, and then on page 70 something, I was like, Man, I don't think people that will read this, they necessarily need this.

They need to love God and and not the doctrine.

Um so yes, invest time in learning, absolutely.

But don't get too fixated on this that it's only it's it's it's all about your ego.

Yes, yes.

Knowledge puffs up, yeah.

Yeah, but well, at the end of the day, a good rhythm really is about you know being being in stride with the spirit, like like we opened up the the series and the season on to.

So uh I think ending this episode on a paradox of God is unknowable, yet he makes himself known is quite an appropriate place when it comes to prayer and the word.

So Vinny, Pastor Keith, thank you guys both for joining us, and uh, we will talk to you guys again next week.

Thanks for listening to After the Message.

If you want to learn more about Celebration Church Orlando, visit our website, celebrationorl.org, or follow us on social media at celebrationorl.