Why do people love Jesus, but hate church?

Matt: Why are so many people drawn to Jesus but uneasy about church? If that question resonates with you, you're not alone. Today we're talking honestly about the gap between Jesus and people's experience of organized religion. Hello and welcome to Church for People Who Don't Like Church, a podcast for the curious, the cautious and the unconvinced. I'm Matt Oldham.

In-person participant 1: Why are so many people drawn to Jesus but uneasy about church? If that question resonates with you, you're not alone. Today we're talking honestly about the gap between Jesus and people's experience of organized religion. Hello and welcome to Church for People Who Don't Like Church, a podcast for the curious, the cautious and the unconvinced. I'm Matt Oldham.

Anthea: And I'm Anthea Raton. Good morning. I'm good, thank you. Well, am I good? That's our standard answer, isn't it? I'm all right. It's towards the end of the week and probably a bit tired, looking forward to my weekend.

Matt: Good morning Anthony Raton, how are you?

In-person participant 1: Good morning Anthony Raton, how are you?

Matt: Bring us in the air, Anthony.

In-person participant 1: Bring us in the air, Anthony.

Anthea: Definitely, definitely a beautiful day.

Matt: And just to start us off, anything you don't like about church this week?

In-person participant 1: And just to start us off, anything you don't like about church this week?

Anthea: Well, I've been thinking about this and one thing I sometimes don't like about church is when I arrive or at the end and I feel awkward about who do I talk to? I kind of arrive and sort of freeze a bit.

Matt: And you've been going there for how long?

In-person participant 1: And you've been going there for how long?

Anthea: ⁓ yes, many, many, years. So it isn't something that's gone away.

Matt: So just that awkward church feeling of not knowing who to talk to.

In-person participant 1: So just that awkward church feeling of not knowing who to talk to.

Anthea: Absolutely, even though I might know many people, I still sometimes feel a bit like that.

Matt: And are you introvert or extrovert?

In-person participant 1: And are you introvert or extrovert?

Anthea: Well, I'm extrovert, so I enjoy being around a bunch of people, but I still can sometimes feel a bit frozen.

Matt: Yeah, so that's why it must be like uber awkward like the first time you go I think I'm thinking back to the first time I sort of went and you're sort of conscious that people are looking at you thinking who's he Maybe that's just the thing

In-person participant 1: Yeah, so that's why it must be like uber awkward like the first time you go I think I'm thinking back to the first time I sort of went and you're sort of conscious that people are looking at you thinking who's he Maybe that's just the thing

Anthea: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think it's really hard to walk into any new space, but particularly a church space, because everybody seems to know each other and they're all talking to each other and you don't and like you say, you feel noticed and awkward. Not easy.

Matt: So what we don't like about church this week is church awkwardness.

In-person participant 1: So what we don't like about church this week is church awkwardness.

Anthea: total awkwardness. Yeah, yeah.

Matt: there we go. moving on, Anthea. So last Monday, bank holiday weekend, Easter weekend, on the Monday I was at a really nice drinks party with friends of ours.

In-person participant 1: there we go. moving on, Anthea. So last Monday, bank holiday weekend, Easter weekend, on the Monday I was at a really nice drinks party with friends of ours.

Matt: I'm speaking to one of the guys who is there I've met him a few times before he's a friend of a friend really great guy not a churchgoer and so the topic of conversation moved on to church at Easter and He said and he was quite impassioned when he said this goes ⁓ I'd love to go somewhere just to pray but I can't be bothered with all that church nonsense and and

In-person participant 1: I'm speaking to one of the guys who is there I've met him a few times before he's a friend of a friend really great guy not a churchgoer and so the topic of conversation moved on to church at Easter and He said and he was quite impassioned when he said this goes ⁓ I'd love to go somewhere just to pray but I can't be bothered with all that church nonsense and and

Anthea: .

Matt: That's not the first time I've heard that and it suggested to me that he, like a number of people, had an interest or a desire for knowledge or a connection with Jesus but church just got in the way. So thought we could discuss that today. Why do, and again just to summarise that, why do some people love Jesus but hate church?

In-person participant 1: That's not the first time I've heard that and it suggested to me that he, like a number of people, had an interest or a desire for knowledge or a connection with Jesus but church just got in the way. So thought we could discuss that today. Why do, and again just to summarise that, why do some people love Jesus but hate church?

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: You must experience that conversation a lot. You're a church leader, you and Paul are the of the figureheads of our church. You must experience that a lot.

In-person participant 1: You must experience that conversation a lot. You're a church leader, you and Paul are the of the figureheads of our church. You must experience that a lot.

Anthea: We do and we don't because sort of extending to that is it's a massive conversation killer at the nice drinks party. If somebody says, ⁓ what do you do? And you say, ⁓ I lead a church or I pastor a church. And people absolutely don't know, talk about lead balloon. They don't know what to say. But I think it's more that I wonder whether it brings up such a lot in them about what they don't like about church. But at the same time, they're quite liking you. that they just change the subject. They don't know what to say because I wouldn't say I've had worst reactions, but people definitely do not want to talk about it. So they literally just, or me being me will be kind about it and then give them something else. So I'll say, and I'm a psychotherapist and then people are much more interested in that. it's not quite...

Matt: What's the worst reaction you've ever had to that?

In-person participant 1: What's the worst reaction you've ever had to that?

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Matt: Give us a minute out.

In-person participant 1: Give us a minute out.

Anthea: For me, it's not quite the same as being a doctor at a party when ⁓ doctors will tell you, people always tell you all their medical problems. It's less likely people will start telling me all their spiritual problems, even though I'm the sort of person they could easily talk to. I think because I immediately begin to represent everything people don't like about church, which isn't like you say about the desire to pray or the desire to be spiritual or that they don't like Jesus. It's that they don't like.

Matt: It's a different type of church awkwardness. We've uncovered a new thing. I think that's something else that I hear quite often. I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. What do think people mean by that?

In-person participant 1: It's a different type of church awkwardness. We've uncovered a new thing. I think that's something else that I hear quite often. I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. What do think people mean by that?

Anthea: I think people, I think there's a big desire for something other, that people are aware of spirituality, that there is more perhaps than in this world, in this cosmos than just them and humankind. I think there is an awareness of spirituality and people are interested in that.

Matt: Yeah, but there seems to be a block between whether it's interest in Jesus or spirituality and the idea that church can be a place that can be explored safely for them. Would that be... you'd agree with that?

In-person participant 1: Yeah, but there seems to be a block between whether it's interest in Jesus or spirituality and the idea that church can be a place that can be explored safely for them. Would that be... you'd agree with that?

Anthea: I think so. think, and again, what I wanted to say this morning in particular as we're talking about this is that I'm not an expert and I've got ideas and thoughts ⁓ and I'm not right or wrong. And I really hope people listening to this, some of you ⁓ are going, no, I don't agree with that. I think this, no, no, what about that? I really hope that us talking is bringing up a bunch of questions for you who are listening because that's the whole point. ⁓ It's about the questions. and now I've completely forgotten what we were talking about. Remind me. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, get with the program, Anthea. No, I think you're absolutely right that we want to have conversation rather than presenting this is the answer. So, but maybe a good place to start is personally. So when you hear that expression, I love Jesus, but I don't like church, what does that bring up for you?

In-person participant 1: Yeah, get with the program, Anthea. No, I think you're absolutely right that we want to have conversation rather than presenting this is the answer. So, but maybe a good place to start is personally. So when you hear that expression, I love Jesus, but I don't like church, what does that bring up for you?

Anthea: It brings up, it makes me feel very sad actually ⁓ that church gets in the way of Jesus ⁓ or following a particular faith. Christianity is what we're talking about here, it makes me feel sad and as somebody who leads a church I then immediately think well what am I doing wrong, know, how am I not helpful? and how can I be more helpful? Because obviously I do believe that a church community is a good space to explore questions and spirituality. So yeah, deep sadness comes up when I hear that.

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, I we talked about our own church journeys in the last episode and certainly my church journey I feel real empathy for that church getting in the way of anything so I do get that but...

In-person participant 1: Yeah, I we talked about our own church journeys in the last episode and certainly my church journey I feel real empathy for that church getting in the way of anything so I do get that but...

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: I think, you know, what we're sort of talking about, Jesus is still a draw for people, whether it's curiosity or a sense that there's goodness there. So let's talk about the Jesus part of this. Why do you think that Jesus, or even some idea of praying to Jesus, still draws people even though they're so wary of religion?

In-person participant 1: I think, you know, what we're sort of talking about, Jesus is still a draw for people, whether it's curiosity or a sense that there's goodness there. So let's talk about the Jesus part of this. Why do you think that Jesus, or even some idea of praying to Jesus, still draws people even though they're so wary of religion?

Anthea: ⁓ That's a brilliant question and many people have answered this in many ways and I'm not going to give a big old preach about this, but I think if you take Jesus the man in these stories that we read in the Christian gospels, ⁓ awesome man, mean, Jesus was an awesome man. And if you dig deep into the things he did and the things he taught and the way he lived his life and the people that he hung around with and... whether or not you believe that's true or not, it's story and it contains huge amounts of truth. And I think he's just amazing. And I think he was subversive, he was disruptive, he was inclusive, he was all about justice and righteousness. He was all about including everybody in. And ⁓ you see that time and time again in stories of him reaching out to the poor, to the people who didn't have very much, to people who the society at that time didn't like. ⁓ So he completely bent rules, in different directions, was ⁓ not very predictable. ⁓ He spoke in riddles and parables. He didn't particularly tell people what to do. I could go on and on about just the amazingness of Jesus. And then if you begin to add to that the fact that in the Christian tradition, we believe that Jesus was God. Hang on a minute, what's that? What are you talking about now? This idea of a Trinity God, God being three in one. Oh my goodness, now what are you talking about? This is crazy stuff, crazy idea. But it's sort of mystical, it's other. And that then links into what we were saying earlier about sort of an idea of the spiritual and something else and this catches that very well. So yeah, I mean some of the biggest fans of Jesus were people like Gandhi, you know, who walked very clearly in a different religion. People like the Dalai Lama would speak well of Jesus. I think our Muslim brothers and sisters would also accept Jesus was a prophet and admire Jesus' teaching. yeah. There's an awful lot that would draw us to the person and teaching Jesus.

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Matt: think it's like lot of that's embedded, isn't it? Even if you've not had a church background, you went to school, was stories, know, the stories of Jesus are all around you. So maybe that sort of stays with you. And I think what you're saying there, that can mature into a more sort of spiritual awareness maybe as you get older. So even for non-Christians, non-churchgoers, there's a sense of Jesus and there's a tradition of Jesus and a culture of Christianity.

In-person participant 1: think it's like lot of that's embedded, isn't it? Even if you've not had a church background, you went to school, was stories, know, the stories of Jesus are all around you. So maybe that sort of stays with you. And I think what you're saying there, that can mature into a more sort of spiritual awareness maybe as you get older. So even for non-Christians, non-churchgoers, there's a sense of Jesus and there's a tradition of Jesus and a culture of Christianity.

Matt: which is around you which must resonate or stick to a certain extent even if it's yeah even if it's not going to inspire you to become a Christian you'll go. And what of that spirituality then I mean you that sort of less specific or or named sense of something else what is it that you think people are searching for with that?

In-person participant 1: which is around you which must resonate or stick to a certain extent even if it's yeah even if it's not going to inspire you to become a Christian you'll go. And what of that spirituality then I mean you that sort of less specific or or named sense of something else what is it that you think people are searching for with that?

Anthea: And again, I realise I'm speaking on behalf of people, but I think people are searching for peace and hope. They're searching for meaning to make sense of things in their lives, in the world. You know, we look across our world and a lot of it doesn't make a great deal of sense and is actually quite disturbing and distressing. I think people are searching for more than just what's in them.

Matt: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so let's look at the other side of the equation then. We've talked about Jesus or spirituality being a draw for people. Let's look at some of the reasons which are putting people off. I think we'll probably have to summarize this and maybe come back to these, but what do you think are the big blockers?

In-person participant 1: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so let's look at the other side of the equation then. We've talked about Jesus or spirituality being a draw for people. Let's look at some of the reasons which are putting people off. I think we'll probably have to summarize this and maybe come back to these, but what do you think are the big blockers?

Anthea: ⁓ wow, I it's hard isn't it? Without, I don't want to be sort of name calling other Christian people but I do think if you say you're part of a church or a Christian it can bring up huge associations with things like prejudice, ⁓ homophobia in particular, ⁓ a sense of you're a do-gooder, you're going to look down on me, ⁓ the history of abuse that sits in churches across all denominations and Protestant and Catholic. ⁓ I think that sort of stuff, mean, what do you think, what comes up for you?

Matt: Yeah I think all those, gosh I mean a lot of those things like the idea of judgment I think is a big one, people feel that it's about judgment and that if you are a Christian you feel you're better than people and that irritates me and I am so I'm a Christian. I also think some of them are quite...

In-person participant 1: Yeah I think all those, gosh I mean a lot of those things like the idea of judgment I think is a big one, people feel that it's about judgment and that if you are a Christian you feel you're better than people and that irritates me and I am so I'm a Christian. I also think some of them are quite...

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: more mundane about, we both talked about when we were growing up how boring church was and I think for a lot of people church seems to be this cold boring place. Why would I do that on a Sunday? It's my free time, it's my weekend and church seems to be boring. But then I also agree that there's a hell of a lot of damage that's been done by people's experiences. I'm constantly surprised that some people who I know who do go to church still go to church having gone through

In-person participant 1: more mundane about, we both talked about when we were growing up how boring church was and I think for a lot of people church seems to be this cold boring place. Why would I do that on a Sunday? It's my free time, it's my weekend and church seems to be boring. But then I also agree that there's a hell of a lot of damage that's been done by people's experiences. I'm constantly surprised that some people who I know who do go to church still go to church having gone through

Anthea: Mm. Mm. Mm.

Matt: what they've been through, which I think is a shame. I also think one of the things that I've experienced is that it's less about a bad experience of church, it's like no experience of church, you've just never been, it's just not in your viewpoint. Again a good example of that is for many years I played for the River Church football team, River Santos, and there was just two of us who actually

In-person participant 1: what they've been through, which I think is a shame. I also think one of the things that I've experienced is that it's less about a bad experience of church, it's like no experience of church, you've just never been, it's just not in your viewpoint. Again a good example of that is for many years I played for the River Church football team, River Santos, and there was just two of us who actually

Matt: went to church. we played, it's funny, we played in this church league and we had a prayer at the beginning of the game. That was the only thing that was vaguely Christian. As soon as a whistle went, it was like any other football game I've played. was like fists or everything. But the lads who played, they were really quite happy to be in a church team, quite proud of being in a church team. But the gap between that...

In-person participant 1: went to church. we played, it's funny, we played in this church league and we had a prayer at the beginning of the game. That was the only thing that was vaguely Christian. As soon as a whistle went, it was like any other football game I've played. was like fists or everything. But the lads who played, they were really quite happy to be in a church team, quite proud of being in a church team. But the gap between that...

Anthea: Okay. Yeah.

Matt: The chasm between playing for a church team and going to church was just massive and was, you know, tried to encourage it was just too big because it just didn't even think there was no connection that they made between a church football team and church. And so, I mean, I think that's the thing. was just no experience and certainly no positive experience of it or reason to go I think is a reason.

In-person participant 1: The chasm between playing for a church team and going to church was just massive and was, you know, tried to encourage it was just too big because it just didn't even think there was no connection that they made between a church football team and church. And so, I mean, I think that's the thing. was just no experience and certainly no positive experience of it or reason to go I think is a reason.

Anthea: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it's, we're probably the last of a generation of people who grew up where church was kind of normal to go to like Sunday school, even if your parents didn't, was something that kids got sent along to and ⁓ it wasn't unusual. to be a churchgoer and grow up in that. Whereas now that I think that isn't the case. So I think that people younger than us is just not the norm. And also we were reflecting earlier that ⁓ I think those of us who have got a much deeper awareness of where church can go wrong have perhaps brought our children up slightly differently so that I didn't really have a choice. And we were talking about this last week, neither did you about going to church till I was about. 15, 16, whereas we haven't done that with our children, which is a good thing because it means they've got their own minds and their own thoughts, but it also means they're not habituated into going to church. So it becomes harder for them to sort of that to be part of their routine in a week, if you like. And I think that's a good thing and a problematic thing, potentially.

Matt: Yeah, I agree with that.

In-person participant 1: Yeah, I agree with that.

Matt: Yeah and I think that's where the, we talked before about like a chasm, I think if you haven't been brought up being dragged to church like I was, if you then go to church and church hasn't really changed that much in format, it just seems to be alien that you would sit still, sing a bit, listen to a guy speak for 20 minutes and go home.

In-person participant 1: Yeah and I think that's where the, we talked before about like a chasm, I think if you haven't been brought up being dragged to church like I was, if you then go to church and church hasn't really changed that much in format, it just seems to be alien that you would sit still, sing a bit, listen to a guy speak for 20 minutes and go home.

Anthea: No.

Matt: you haven't had the tradition of going to that, I think that would probably feel quite weird.

In-person participant 1: you haven't had the tradition of going to that, I think that would probably feel quite weird.

Anthea: I think so, yeah.

Matt: So I think it will be worth us coming back and exploring some of these. think that judgment thing, I think I'd love to sort of have a deeper conversation about why on earth would Christians, why is judgment and Christianity associated together? I think that would be a good one for us to unpack. But just in terms of re-imagining church, if we're honest and we...

In-person participant 1: So I think it will be worth us coming back and exploring some of these. think that judgment thing, I think I'd love to sort of have a deeper conversation about why on earth would Christians, why is judgment and Christianity associated together? I think that would be a good one for us to unpack. But just in terms of re-imagining church, if we're honest and we...

Anthea: Yeah. Good morning.

Matt: we sort of put our hands up and say yeah there lots of things that put people off church. What might a healthier vision of church look like?

In-person participant 1: we sort of put our hands up and say yeah there lots of things that put people off church. What might a healthier vision of church look like?

Anthea: Well again that's a massive question and one which people have been exploring since ever churches began which is why there was so many different denominations and ⁓ we were driving somewhere on a holiday and down a down a long road and there were all these little signs popping up of these different types of churches this church, the church of that, this, this, and you're thinking, wow, this is only a tiny settlement in the middle of nowhere. And there's all these different churches. And you would think to yourself, why don't they just all meet in one spot and do the thing together? I think there's, there's, there's all sorts of theological reasons, but I think also it's about how do we do church differently? And that's why over the years you've got sort of Methodism has popped off and Anglicanism and United Reformed Church has popped off and churches like ours have popped up and it- But I wonder whether we get something a bit mixed up in that. Here in Church Moly, we're very keen to be communists, not consumers. And I think Church is, like how I've worked at, being very good at becoming a place where you can consume, where it's quite trendy, it's quite modern, it makes you feel good, rather than somewhere where you commune with others. And so it's more the what's going on.

Matt: Mmm.

In-person participant 1: Mmm.

Anthea: the sort of content rather than the trappings, which I think is important. And I think what we get into is reimagining the trappings again and again. I don't think in that sense, God changes. I think we can repackage God very well. Yeah, it is.

Matt: repackaging so repackaging God is off the table that's probably quite reassuring for anyone listening to this I personally think that the and again I've got a marketing background I think the idea of marketing church is really tricky particularly when it's tried to tries to be trendy and cool though just it's real ick stuff and certainly my children would run a mile from from anything which is sort of...

In-person participant 1: repackaging so repackaging God is off the table that's probably quite reassuring for anyone listening to this I personally think that the and again I've got a marketing background I think the idea of marketing church is really tricky particularly when it's tried to tries to be trendy and cool though just it's real ick stuff and certainly my children would run a mile from from anything which is sort of...

Matt: position too much as let's make it cool and trendy because I think ultimately Going back to what we talked about beginning. There's something fundamentally awkward about church because of its personal nature and you can only really sort of fully dive in if you've allowed some vulnerability So I don't think it can ever be this sort of cool trendy place and packaged as that

In-person participant 1: position too much as let's make it cool and trendy because I think ultimately Going back to what we talked about beginning. There's something fundamentally awkward about church because of its personal nature and you can only really sort of fully dive in if you've allowed some vulnerability So I don't think it can ever be this sort of cool trendy place and packaged as that

Anthea: No, I think we get distracted by trying to reimagine in that way. think a fundamental of wanting to look at the Christian tradition is you want to encounter and meet God, whatever that means, and we could talk about that. And you want to, if you know nothing, you want to learn some stuff. same why you would go to an open university course, I need to learn about this and in you're doing that with other people so I'm not doing that on my own anymore, maybe I've been doing that on my own for a long time and I need some other people to help me along that way. I think those are some of the simple tenets of being in a faith community and I think also that what we can do so much better

Matt: Hmm.

In-person participant 1: Hmm.

Anthea: is just to allow that and allow questions, allow the awkwardness, allow people to do whatever they need to do to be with you and not judge and not say that you have to have all your ducks in a row and be able to walk through the door. I think a lot of people don't want to come into any sort of church setting because they feel they're not good enough. Certainly isn't how I view people, but it may be how... I come across, I don't know.

Matt: Yeah, think 100 % agree with that. I think the other part of that is really being respectful for people who have been on the journey already. So if you suddenly start deconstructing everything that people are comfortable with who actually are in church, then you're going to alienate those. So it's a bit of a juggling act here. Sort of bringing this to a little bit of a close then. message, there's two parts to this, we're in the church leadership team. So what are the things that should we be looking

In-person participant 1: Yeah, think 100 % agree with that. I think the other part of that is really being respectful for people who have been on the journey already. So if you suddenly start deconstructing everything that people are comfortable with who actually are in church, then you're going to alienate those. So it's a bit of a juggling act here. Sort of bringing this to a little bit of a close then. message, there's two parts to this, we're in the church leadership team. So what are the things that should we be looking

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: to do going forward to try and break down some of these barriers? Let's start with that question and I'll come back to people who are sort of curious at the other side. So what should we be doing as church leaders to try and break down some of these barriers?

In-person participant 1: to do going forward to try and break down some of these barriers? Let's start with that question and I'll come back to people who are sort of curious at the other side. So what should we be doing as church leaders to try and break down some of these barriers?

Anthea: Gosh, big question. I haven't got a ready answer particularly. I think it's about being open, accessible. I think it's about ourselves modeling a vulnerability, being very clear that we're not perfect, we haven't got it all zoned up, and being transparent about our own lives and our own spirituality. Not being those big preachers in a pulpit with a big black book waving it about, being perhaps sometimes people come to our church and they don't even know who the leader is. Maybe that's a good thing.

Matt: And then what about a message for someone who, as we've talked about, is interested in Jesus or spirituality but church is repellent. What sort of message would you be saying to people like that?

In-person participant 1: And then what about a message for someone who, as we've talked about, is interested in Jesus or spirituality but church is repellent. What sort of message would you be saying to people like that?

Anthea: I mean, honestly, I do love church and I love being part of a faith community most of the time. I don't always love it, but then. you know, anything. I think if you're part of a running club, perhaps you don't always love being in that and you don't always agree with everything they've done or the route they took that week, but you go back because mostly it is something you enjoy. You're a runner. So, ⁓ and it's probably very hard if you're not a runner, but you want to be to go along for that first couch to 5k session. But it's being a little bit bold and brave to do that. So I think for people who are interested, it's, you know, keep looking because there will be somewhere, there will be a bunch of people that perhaps you do connect to and you can be with. another thought I had, and this could be another whole topic, is we live in a society which is very individualistic and very about me and mine. And I do think that if Jesus was somebody who was, Jesus wasn't individualistic, he lived his life with a bunch of people. ⁓ and all sorts of people. He was funded by women, know, not many people talk about that, but that's radical, you know. So actually there's something about doing something with others and it's quite hard sitting in your room on your own trying to be spiritual. When you immediately connect with a bunch of people, it comes alive in a different way. So I would say have a look, keep poking about, you'll find somewhere.

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. So I think those messages are, church can be awkward, make that point. You're not strange for feeling that or being disappointed. Bad experiences in church don't necessarily reflect Jesus' nature.

In-person participant 1: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. So I think those messages are, church can be awkward, make that point. You're not strange for feeling that or being disappointed. Bad experiences in church don't necessarily reflect Jesus' nature.

Anthea: Mm. Mm.

Matt: And I like that thing about keep searching, keep searching for community because I think community is the most important thing. There's a whole host of learning resources or stuff, but that's not church. Church is really about, you know, who are you going to go on the gym with? And I think that's, I think what we both value about us.

In-person participant 1: And I like that thing about keep searching, keep searching for community because I think community is the most important thing. There's a whole host of learning resources or stuff, but that's not church. Church is really about, you know, who are you going to go on the gym with? And I think that's, I think what we both value about us.

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Always good.

Matt: Great, okay, well thanks for your honesty and openness, Anthea, tricky topic. And thank you everyone listening for joining us. From curious people, cautious, wounded, hopeful or unsure, you are all welcome in this conversation.

In-person participant 1: Great, okay, well thanks for your honesty and openness, Anthea, tricky topic. And thank you everyone listening for joining us. From curious people, cautious, wounded, hopeful or unsure, you are all welcome in this conversation.

Anthea: Absolutely, absolutely. Keep listening, keep commenting. Like we said earlier, we've not got a monopoly on right. We would really love to hear from you. if you have been shouting at the, don't know what you shout at, we're not going to tell you are we? If you've been shouting at this podcast, well, what about this then? Please tell us, you know, we want to know. We want to talk about that too.

Matt: Fantastic, well we'll take on another big question in the next episode. Thank you for being with us.

In-person participant 1: Fantastic, well we'll take on another big question in the next episode. Thank you for being with us.

Anthea: Thank you.