Can you belong before you believe?

Matt: A lot of people assume church is for people who already know what they believe. People who are confident, committed and spiritually certain. But what if that picture is wrong? What if belonging is not something you earn once your beliefs are fully in place? But part of a way faith begins to take shape. Welcome to episode 3 of Church for People Who Don't Write Church. I'm Matt Oldham. Hello, Anthea Raton. How was your holiday? You've been away?

In-person participant 1: A lot of people assume church is for people who already know what they believe. People who are confident, committed and spiritually certain. But what if that picture is wrong? What if belonging is not something you earn once your beliefs are fully in place? But part of a way faith begins to take shape. Welcome to episode 3 of Church for People Who Don't Write Church. I'm Matt Oldham. Hello, Anthea Raton. How was your holiday? You've been away?

Anthea: I'm at Theoretton. I have been where I've been in Geneva. We're just outside Geneva with two very old friends of mine. you're listening, Andrea and Claire, shout out to you. It's been a really nice time. They're just connecting. We first met, we all lived together when we were in our twenties. So we've known each other. ⁓ And then years ago, I know. Yeah. And one of them lives in America. So we haven't seen her for a very long time. So was very special.

Matt: ⁓ 10 years ago.

In-person participant 1: ⁓ 10 years ago.

Matt: and you're fully refreshed physically, spiritually, mentally.

In-person participant 1: and you're fully refreshed physically, spiritually, mentally.

Anthea: I am, yeah. There's something about being with people who know you really well, so you can laugh and joke and eat and talk and walk and yeah, it a good time. Good time.

Matt: Well fantastic, well that's actually very apt because we're going to talk about belonging today. But to kick off in the last couple of episodes we've started by talking about something we don't like about church. I thought we'd turn it on its head in this episode and I'm going to ask you tell me one thing you love about church and that you miss if you're not there on a Sunday.

In-person participant 1: Well fantastic, well that's actually very apt because we're going to talk about belonging today. But to kick off in the last couple of episodes we've started by talking about something we don't like about church. I thought we'd turn it on its head in this episode and I'm going to ask you tell me one thing you love about church and that you miss if you're not there on a Sunday.

Anthea: Okay, I think it's the people. It's those little ragtag bunch of folk who turn up on a Sunday from all different shapes and sizes and the way that then together we co-create this space where we can experience something deeply spiritual. And I wouldn't find that anywhere else.

Matt: I think that's very true. think there is a real... If you work, you tend to work with a similar type of people or if you're in a club, they tend to be saying, but we have such a wide variety of people and I think that's great. So think one of the things I would say I love about church is when you come and you arrive and someone just gives you massive big hug. I'd love that, but a bit about it. And again, you're right. You don't get that at many places. I was saying, you know, only at churches, but not at many places. So I think that's cool.

In-person participant 1: I think that's very true. think there is a real... If you work, you tend to work with a similar type of people or if you're in a club, they tend to be saying, but we have such a wide variety of people and I think that's great. So think one of the things I would say I love about church is when you come and you arrive and someone just gives you massive big hug. I'd love that, but a bit about it. And again, you're right. You don't get that at many places. I was saying, you know, only at churches, but not at many places. So I think that's cool.

Anthea: many places.

Matt: Right so we've got a topic to discuss which is can you belong before you believe? So how do we start? Maybe we should start but I guess not that long ago maybe even only one generation ago.

In-person participant 1: Right so we've got a topic to discuss which is can you belong before you believe? So how do we start? Maybe we should start but I guess not that long ago maybe even only one generation ago.

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: There was a lot less sort of questioning in society of authority. So teachers, police, government and I would argue church were sort of an unquestioning thing. But we're much more questioning these days, possibly even cynical. Are we conditioned to be sceptics?

In-person participant 1: There was a lot less sort of questioning in society of authority. So teachers, police, government and I would argue church were sort of an unquestioning thing. But we're much more questioning these days, possibly even cynical. Are we conditioned to be sceptics?

Anthea: It's a good question, isn't it? We're definitely conditioned differently than we were. And I think our generation and definitely our parents' generations beyond that, as you said, education. Well, ⁓ every area, workplaces, you need to be told or learn things were very much, is it, this is the way, you know, at school you were just taught and told stuff. I wonder whether it's not that we're sceptical, but that we've actually been taught or younger people now are taught to have their own minds and to ask their own questions, which I think is actually more in line with much more ancient ways of learning and experiencing the world, which was all about asking questions in the rabbinic way was about the rabbi expecting you to ask a question, not just stick passively and take in information. So, so yeah, ⁓ are we sceptical or are we just open?

Matt: Mm.

In-person participant 1: Mm.

Anthea: and able to do our own thinking now.

Matt: I think that's a good perspective. like that idea that it's... because I sort of think that questioning, questioning authority has been seen as a bad thing, but there's good and bad in it, I guess, but a lot of it is really positive that we don't... we are sort of searching a little bit more as a society. We are less, less likely just to take what something is said without questioning ourselves. I think there's some positives in that. So I guess...

In-person participant 1: I think that's a good perspective. like that idea that it's... because I sort of think that questioning, questioning authority has been seen as a bad thing, but there's good and bad in it, I guess, but a lot of it is really positive that we don't... we are sort of searching a little bit more as a society. We are less, less likely just to take what something is said without questioning ourselves. I think there's some positives in that. So I guess...

Matt: Faith then is no longer black and white and I guess the question is as a church what do we do with the grey? It doesn't really feel like church as a whole, I'm making broad generalisations here, is a safe place for the curious. You either believe and you go to church or you don't believe and you don't go to church. But what about those who are in the middle?

In-person participant 1: Faith then is no longer black and white and I guess the question is as a church what do we do with the grey? It doesn't really feel like church as a whole, I'm making broad generalisations here, is a safe place for the curious. You either believe and you go to church or you don't believe and you don't go to church. But what about those who are in the middle?

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really good point. This sort of sense of you're either in or you're out. And what if you're not sure? think at RCM, our church, I think we very much want to give and try to give space to the grave. And I don't know, do we arrive at a face map? You know, do we do we know when we've arrived? Have you arrived? I arrived? think faith or belief is very much in ebb and flow anyway. And I suppose we might decide or arrive that we believe in God or divine or other. And then we might decide Christianity is a way to explore that rather than another faith tradition. ⁓ But I think it's important to...

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Anthea: to recognise and give permission to people who've been around for years and years, particularly as we were just talking about people in generations where we were told what to believe, and to give them space to question and not just accept. Because life is tough, right? And things happen and it causes you to question things you've been told. So I think there are, what I'm saying is I think there are a lot more people who are part of faith communities who are in that middle, who are in a grey space but haven't been given any permission to be in that. So if you're listening and you often wake up and think, I don't know if I believe in God today, that's great, that's fine, please talk about it, don't pretend that you do just because you think you should. But in the answer to the question, think I hope church, the church Marla and this podcast, is a space where we can work things out together, knowing that faith or belief I think it kind of changes and evolves as we do, as we do that with other people. So yeah, I think we do need to make sure that there's a safe space here for the curious and that, but that we all stay curious.

Matt: but just to push back a little bit, because I think you're right that there are...

In-person participant 1: but just to push back a little bit, because I think you're right that there are...

Matt: people in our church community who are on a journey and we all got lots of people talk. It's almost a bit of a cliche to say I'm on a journey and views can change over time. And I think there's lots of people at the moment going through that process, but they start from a foundation of some element of belief. And I think that's great. If you're in church, you can sort of question things from a foundation of belief. if you're before that, if you sort of haven't tipped over

In-person participant 1: people in our church community who are on a journey and we all got lots of people talk. It's almost a bit of a cliche to say I'm on a journey and views can change over time. And I think there's lots of people at the moment going through that process, but they start from a foundation of some element of belief. And I think that's great. If you're in church, you can sort of question things from a foundation of belief. if you're before that, if you sort of haven't tipped over

Matt: into into some sort of I'm just not sure that most churches are the type of place that people who have not made a decision or have not you know just want to explore things I'm not sure that's a place that is for them

In-person participant 1: into into some sort of I'm just not sure that most churches are the type of place that people who have not made a decision or have not you know just want to explore things I'm not sure that's a place that is for them

Anthea: Yeah, I think you're right. ⁓ I think if you come in with too many questions, you could be seen as being disruptive or disrespectful or things like that. Problem. You may feel judged, you may not fit in very well and you may not come back. ⁓ And the way in which church can be presented, know, a typical service or gathering goes.

Matt: A problem.

In-person participant 1: A problem.

Anthea: If you don't fit in with that, what do you do?

Matt: Yeah. And then I guess, you know, then this thing happens that you don't feel that you belong and you don't benefit from that idea of belonging, which is so much part of being in part of a community, in a church community. So I don't know. I think that's the thing that I'm struggling with a little bit is this idea about belonging before you believe. but I guess to a certain extent that sort of...

In-person participant 1: Yeah. And then I guess, you know, then this thing happens that you don't feel that you belong and you don't benefit from that idea of belonging, which is so much part of being in part of a community, in a church community. So I don't know. I think that's the thing that I'm struggling with a little bit is this idea about belonging before you believe. but I guess to a certain extent that sort of...

Matt: that sort of assumes that belonging is something that people want. And I guess we need to make the case for belonging about, we can't just assume that people want to belong to our church or our church community. So let's make the case. Why is belonging good for you?

In-person participant 1: that sort of assumes that belonging is something that people want. And I guess we need to make the case for belonging about, we can't just assume that people want to belong to our church or our church community. So let's make the case. Why is belonging good for you?

Anthea: Why is it good for me? And I think you and I are different on this because obviously I've been in church, as people have heard in other episodes, most all my life, I've never not been part of a church community. So I've always belonged in one, but it's felt different in different spaces. Whereas you've had a much more part of, not part of experience. I think it's not good to be alone, not good to be alone too much. I think in a... In an inclusive, accepting church space, like I hope ours is that there are many different ways to belong. There's not just one way. And I think that that's a little bit unique, if you can make that work. I think being in a community, as we sort of said in the beginning of the things that we like about church is that a community, a good community holds you and it loves you, it believes in you, it roots for you. Several people have said to me recently, I wouldn't be here, Anthea, if it wasn't for this church and how people looked after me and cared for me and prayed for me. And literally they mean that, their lives may have ended. So you could argue, well, any good community could do that. And there's an element of truth in that. But I think working something out together is much easier than doing it on your own.

Matt: Yeah, I think there are some unique things that churches can do. A really good example is when my mum and dad moved to Preston from London, I was still a toddler. My mum was very, very ill and she lost a child in childbirth, lost a kidney, had a...

In-person participant 1: Yeah, I think there are some unique things that churches can do. A really good example is when my mum and dad moved to Preston from London, I was still a toddler. My mum was very, very ill and she lost a child in childbirth, lost a kidney, had a...

Matt: last rites read to her in church, not in church, in the hospital and they'd only just started going to this church and they immediately got the classic church thing of rota for food, for cleaning, for this type of stuff and I think you're right you can get that in other communities with neighborhoods or this that and the other but it's rare but it's not rare in church I think it's quite common that that happens and I think that is a real amazing thing about belonging and

In-person participant 1: last rites read to her in church, not in church, in the hospital and they'd only just started going to this church and they immediately got the classic church thing of rota for food, for cleaning, for this type of stuff and I think you're right you can get that in other communities with neighborhoods or this that and the other but it's rare but it's not rare in church I think it's quite common that that happens and I think that is a real amazing thing about belonging and

Matt: think it can help crystallize your face if you think well if I can rely on these people why are these people so reliable it's because they're relying on something else I think that yeah

In-person participant 1: think it can help crystallize your face if you think well if I can rely on these people why are these people so reliable it's because they're relying on something else I think that yeah

Anthea: Absolutely. Yeah. Why are these people like this when they don't even know me? Why are they so interested in me? And it isn't because we want something from somebody, it's because they're loving on people in the way that we believed us. What would like us to do, I suppose. So yeah, absolutely. It's an amazing draw.

Matt: Yeah, so I still feel though that there's a chasm between this idea of belonging and faith. It still feels like you can't have one without the other. You can't belong without faith. Is that true?

In-person participant 1: Yeah, so I still feel though that there's a chasm between this idea of belonging and faith. It still feels like you can't have one without the other. You can't belong without faith. Is that true?

Anthea: I don't know. I think you can belong without faith or belief. How long that sustains, I don't know. It's like, you know, I'm part of a book group, I have been for years and years. Now, if I didn't read books, I could have popped along there a bit, but eventually I would feel awkward and feel like I ought to. able to read these books. I can get away with not reading the book occasionally and that's fine, the space carries me along. But eventually it is about doing this book reading thing together. believing and belonging.

Matt: Yeah, it's not a social club. I know we've said the thing that some parts of this community you can get elsewhere. I remember when I used to move as a young bloke, used to go and join a cricket club and immediately you've got a community of people who share something with you. But I guess it would be weird if people came to church because they loved the community and they loved Maria's cakes, but they had no interest in following faith or finding faith or interest in

In-person participant 1: Yeah, it's not a social club. I know we've said the thing that some parts of this community you can get elsewhere. I remember when I used to move as a young bloke, used to go and join a cricket club and immediately you've got a community of people who share something with you. But I guess it would be weird if people came to church because they loved the community and they loved Maria's cakes, but they had no interest in following faith or finding faith or interest in

Anthea: Listen, isn't.

Matt: Jesus. So I think that's the difference. That's why I'm not sure you can have both.

In-person participant 1: Jesus. So I think that's the difference. That's why I'm not sure you can have both.

Anthea: yeah and I mean those cakes are good and they are a good reason to pop in, although they're not there every Sunday so you'd have to keep coming until you found a cake, but it I don't think you know you're right I don't think that's a reason to keep coming. But for me, believe if you will encounter love, I believe there will be encounters that will happen for you in different ways if you're part of a faith community. Yeah, eventually nobody's going to make you do this. Well, I hope in our sort of church, wouldn't. I think in other churches, they would perhaps push you a bit, but eventually you will make a decision. You know, is this for me? this Christianity thing something I want to pursue and deepen in and find ways of understanding better? And that might be, you know, I've been coming all these Sundays, but... now I want to talk to people in smaller groups or, you know, we'll have lunch with these people or find out a bit more. And yeah. ⁓

Matt: I like this idea that you talked before about though about this sort of rabbinical tradition of questioning and you know arguing to really find things I don't think we do that a lot in our sort of in most churches

In-person participant 1: I like this idea that you talked before about though about this sort of rabbinical tradition of questioning and you know arguing to really find things I don't think we do that a lot in our sort of in most churches

Matt: Traditionally, I don't think it's a place for of argument and debate. It's more about you listen, you receive from the front. sort of, you reflecting on that, you know, in the early church...

In-person participant 1: Traditionally, I don't think it's a place for of argument and debate. It's more about you listen, you receive from the front. sort of, you reflecting on that, you know, in the early church...

Matt: people weren't bound by rules and dogma and tradition of church. They were just there because they were curious and that curiosity would have been the thing that drove people there. Now I feel that curiosity is gone from church. You've got past curiosity and you're in. So I think that's an observation. I'm not sure how we change that but I think we need to encourage the idea of questioning and maybe also

In-person participant 1: people weren't bound by rules and dogma and tradition of church. They were just there because they were curious and that curiosity would have been the thing that drove people there. Now I feel that curiosity is gone from church. You've got past curiosity and you're in. So I think that's an observation. I'm not sure how we change that but I think we need to encourage the idea of questioning and maybe also

Matt: just be okay with the fact that people haven't got everything sorted. it was like, what was it that thing you sent me earlier before about the squirrels and the ducks?

In-person participant 1: just be okay with the fact that people haven't got everything sorted. it was like, what was it that thing you sent me earlier before about the squirrels and the ducks?

Anthea: ⁓ yeah, I haven't got all my ducks in a row. They're squirrels and they're out of rave.

Matt: That's it. That's the type of stuff. But I'm not sure that's typical from churches, that people are from the front saying, this is what I think, but I'm not sure. What do you think? I'm not sure how tenable that is to have such an open discussion. I don't know. I'm just keen to sort of, for people, I know people are curious and I know that they're not getting questions answered or they're not feeling that they can ask questions at churches.

In-person participant 1: That's it. That's the type of stuff. But I'm not sure that's typical from churches, that people are from the front saying, this is what I think, but I'm not sure. What do you think? I'm not sure how tenable that is to have such an open discussion. I don't know. I'm just keen to sort of, for people, I know people are curious and I know that they're not getting questions answered or they're not feeling that they can ask questions at churches.

Anthea: I think, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I haven't done any reading or anything on it, but I think people's spiritual experiences can be very different depending on how they are wired. So I'm really interested in different personality types, things like the Enneagram, the Myers-Briggs personality inventory. I think they're really good. And if you know your type, you know what kind of a person you are, then...

Matt: Mm.

In-person participant 1: Mm.

Anthea: you would experience things differently. for example, I'm very emotionally wired. So I know I experience things through my emotions, but my husband is not and other people in my life are not. And so how do they experience God? Because it's not going to be like I do or a spiritual feeling. It won't be a spiritual feeling. It might be a thought or an idea. And I think it's very easy in churches to experience everything as some sort of this emotional thing, but I don't think it is. And I don't think that is how everybody experiences God. So I'm interested in that. And I'm concerned that people like me might exclude people not like me because they're not having the same experience as me. Does that make sense?

Matt: Yeah, yeah it does some some basically what you're saying is we should have a test before we go into church some sort of Myers-Briggs and you sort it into different areas so if you're this particular type you go in the corner and have a theological debate with with Paul if you're some another time you go in that corner over there and cry but I think only joking but I do think you're right that

In-person participant 1: Yeah, yeah it does some some basically what you're saying is we should have a test before we go into church some sort of Myers-Briggs and you sort it into different areas so if you're this particular type you go in the corner and have a theological debate with with Paul if you're some another time you go in that corner over there and cry but I think only joking but I do think you're right that

Anthea: you Thanks. Mm. Thank

Matt: what is a real turn-on for some brain types is a complete turn-off for others and getting that mix is tricky I guess and I do think churches do put blockers in the way of curious and the uncommitted rather than sort of big signposts and question marks but maybe that's my opinion

In-person participant 1: what is a real turn-on for some brain types is a complete turn-off for others and getting that mix is tricky I guess and I do think churches do put blockers in the way of curious and the uncommitted rather than sort of big signposts and question marks but maybe that's my opinion

Anthea: you And I think there's lots of reasons for that. It can feel very threatening to have lots of questions to ask if you're in a very certain place. I was thinking as well about different, you can look at groups in different ways and you can think about groups in terms of systems theory of being closed or open. A very closed group or family group is one where they don't. have much coming in from the outside. know that they do know that this is the way, there's lots of particular rules, regulations, certainties. So it doesn't really, it's not easy to get in unless you have to sign up to all of that. Whereas an open system is much more porous. There's lots more coming and going and inning and outing and maybe there's an idea of an in and out and out was just a thing. And so it's much easier to come in there and be part and go away again and flow around. So the idea is to be open. I think it's very easy to become closed because we feel threatened ourselves. If you say to me prayer doesn't work for example, what does that mean? Have I built my faith on a house of cards? What's going to happen if I start taking things away? Will I have nothing? I don't believe you will have nothing but a lot of people get very scared.

Matt: Yeah, that's an interesting point. How do we then get a balance between being a welcoming community, bearing in mind that people have different ways of expressing or questioning?

In-person participant 1: Yeah, that's an interesting point. How do we then get a balance between being a welcoming community, bearing in mind that people have different ways of expressing or questioning?

Matt: So being welcoming but with that desire for people to find faith. So you're sort of not saying, ⁓ welcome, welcome, please come in, you don't have to believe anything here, but read the scripture. Or people coming in who are curious and they're sort of becoming a project rather than just, so taking away the fakery around it and just being welcoming. think it's fine balance, isn't it?

In-person participant 1: So being welcoming but with that desire for people to find faith. So you're sort of not saying, ⁓ welcome, welcome, please come in, you don't have to believe anything here, but read the scripture. Or people coming in who are curious and they're sort of becoming a project rather than just, so taking away the fakery around it and just being welcoming. think it's fine balance, isn't it?

Anthea: I think it is a balance and I've certainly been to churches where people are you because you're new and who are you? Are you a Christian? Are you doing the right thing? You it's and you feel you feel judged. You feel am I am I doing the right thing? And if you're bit of a people pleaser like I can be, then it's very easy just to be a chameleon like and just say all the right things that you can carry on being there. I think it's about us who are in faith communities just being authentic. I think just being authentic about who we are and what our spirituality means to us and not worrying too much about what others are doing. I need to be authentic about my spirituality and what that means to me and how it's rooted, how it's sourced. And yeah, that might be because I'm reading the Bible in a certain way and that might be really helpful for somebody else to know about that, but it might not be. And so it's not for me to impose, it's just me to be, suppose.

Matt: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: Yeah.

Matt: I think also just making it very clear in how we present ourselves that it's okay not to have exactly the same structures of belief that we have. think churches are very, very good at putting ourselves into lots of separate boxes. ⁓ you believe that therefore you can't be here or you believe that therefore you need to be over there. And it's almost like a sorting hat type of exercise as opposed to a fully welcoming exercise.

In-person participant 1: I think also just making it very clear in how we present ourselves that it's okay not to have exactly the same structures of belief that we have. think churches are very, very good at putting ourselves into lots of separate boxes. ⁓ you believe that therefore you can't be here or you believe that therefore you need to be over there. And it's almost like a sorting hat type of exercise as opposed to a fully welcoming exercise.

Matt: exercise. What do you feel or what should a healthy church feel like then perhaps from the perspective of someone who is curious and not committed or visiting for the first time and has just got questions, what should it feel like?

In-person participant 1: exercise. What do you feel or what should a healthy church feel like then perhaps from the perspective of someone who is curious and not committed or visiting for the first time and has just got questions, what should it feel like?

Anthea: Yeah, don't, don't, some of me doesn't really know the answer to this. I expect we might have different answers. And again, it depends on who you are, what it should feel like. But I think it should feel welcoming, it should feel open. But I think it should be real. Like we've talked before, haven't we, about, for example, all churches say they welcome everybody. And yet some churches have very particular views and belief systems around marriage. So I think if you're I think you need to be upfront about that. And if that's what you believe, that's what you believe. And if that's something that would make it difficult not to be part of the church, like everybody here needs to always wear orange jumpers. Well, I don't like orange. I'm sorry. But we do wear orange jumpers here. You know, that kind of thing. I'm just using a more neutral example. Yeah, but I think also it's about not being pushy, it's about not being judgy, it's about being curious about anybody who's part of us and understanding that people will settle down into different places to belong. There are people who come to church every week, sit at the front, do everything, you know, part of everything. There people who come occasionally, I know their name, I don't know where they live, I don't know much about them because they're quiet people. and they come in and there are people who come every weeknight sit right at the back and then scurry away again quite quickly because that's how they use the space. So I do believe there's a different way of belonging in churches. And there some people who would say they were part of the church, you've never seen them on Sunday, but you'll see them in a small group during the week or walking with one friend. Does church equal? being part of a church, does it mean you have to be there every Sunday? No, I don't think it does. I think some people have to be, otherwise we can't have a Sunday, but yeah, it's a rambling answer.

Matt: No.

In-person participant 1: No.

Matt: No, I think that's really interesting. I think a lot of this stuff...

In-person participant 1: No, I think that's really interesting. I think a lot of this stuff...

Matt: resonates with me, as I said on my journey that I was peripheral for a long time, I was one of those people on the edges and I think over a period of time having more of a sense of belonging was helpful because it sort of created the environment that I could ask the questions I needed to. So I think that belonging part of it was really important. It wasn't everything about it, but it was an important part.

In-person participant 1: resonates with me, as I said on my journey that I was peripheral for a long time, I was one of those people on the edges and I think over a period of time having more of a sense of belonging was helpful because it sort of created the environment that I could ask the questions I needed to. So I think that belonging part of it was really important. It wasn't everything about it, but it was an important part.

Matt: So thanks for that, think that was interesting, some good perspectives. Some takeaways, how can we summarise? think some of them would be making the point that belonging is not always like the reward at the end. Maybe it's part of a journey. You don't need to fake certainty to be welcome. Just come as you are and hopefully churches can meet you as you are.

In-person participant 1: So thanks for that, think that was interesting, some good perspectives. Some takeaways, how can we summarise? think some of them would be making the point that belonging is not always like the reward at the end. Maybe it's part of a journey. You don't need to fake certainty to be welcome. Just come as you are and hopefully churches can meet you as you are.

Matt: Healthy Church has room for questions and questioning is good and we should be not threatened by anything. Anything else you want to add into that?

In-person participant 1: Healthy Church has room for questions and questioning is good and we should be not threatened by anything. Anything else you want to add into that?

Anthea: if you've been in church for a long time and you suddenly have questions that's okay too ⁓ and it's okay things, shifts and changes, belief shifts and changes and that's okay.

Matt: Excellent, well thank you, Anthea. I think we should wrap it up there. Once again, great to talk to you, great to have you back, and we'll be speaking again soon.

In-person participant 1: Excellent, well thank you, Anthea. I think we should wrap it up there. Once again, great to talk to you, great to have you back, and we'll be speaking again soon.

Anthea: Absolutely, and I just want to say thank you to everybody who's listening in. And we do really want to include you if you're listening. So if you've got a question or a reflection or a thought on things that we've talked about, email, message us, get hold of us and then we can read them out and think about them here. So that'd be good.

Matt: sound like we could do a live Q &A. Gosh.

In-person participant 1: sound like we could do a live Q &A. Gosh.

Anthea: could do. Maybe a bit scary, definitely I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this. We're just chatting the chat, but you might be listening and think, ⁓ yeah, that's interesting. I think this and you know, we can include that here.

Matt: Fantastic. Good stuff. Speak to you again soon.

In-person participant 1: Fantastic. Good stuff. Speak to you again soon.

Anthea: Good. OK, thanks Matt. Bye.